| IVOD_ID |
15865 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15865 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-01T08:30:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-01T16:17:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
07:46:14 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685648a477557a3c4750f9a65472a0a5ac33be8d109af184be4944de7d32f6aa23b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查
一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。
三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。
四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。
五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。
六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。
七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。
八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。
九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。
十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。
十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。
十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。
十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。
十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。
十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。
十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。
十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。
十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。
十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。
二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。
二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。
二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。
二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。
二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。
二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。
【第一案至第二十四案，如經復議則不予審查；第二十五案至第三十六案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:46 - 16:17:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1804.807 |
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1829.795 |
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好,我們現在繼續開會那謝謝今天出席的官員還有與會的委員那也謝謝衛福部在昨天其實有找各部會其實有在重新討論那有建議修正的版本那所以是不是把這個修正的版本也給與會的委員好不好就是大家部會有在開會然後針對這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1834.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1853.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
法條就是有建議修正的版本那我想有這樣子充分的討論會有助於今天我們整個法案審查的進度那就請現在給與會的人員就是大家新修正通過的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1855.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1882.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
那因為禮拜一的討論我們其實第二條第三條是保留嘛那原則上我們今天的順序就是先往下走走一遍然後如果有完全沒有意見的就通過那有意見的我們就是都保留再回來第二輪再從頭開始討論那之前已經討論到第三條接下來是第四條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1886.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1905.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
第四條是本席提出來的這個條文那我提出來的部分呢是希望可以多增加就是上課的部分在我們的課綱裡面就是可以可以增加兩個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1907.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1907.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1925.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1929.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1947.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1975.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
就是在學校裡面課程他接受一定時數的這個課程所以我想我會提出來的這個條文的修正也是認為應該是要讓這個孩子這個是要比較是去讓教育部意識到這個問題的嚴重性而且是可以直接明文入法讓各校在課綱裡面都要安排足夠的時數然後來教育孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1976.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1976.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
議員主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1994.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2013.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
修法要與時俱進。未來這個有關於兒少性剝削的議題,隨著網際網路的發達,孩子在上網的時間增加,反而這一類的時數才是應該要去增加。所以教育部可以自行回去去調整你原來在性評課程裡面的這個比重。 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2014.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2018.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2039.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2067.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這個也是為什麼我們今天還需要再修法那去年的修法沒有意識到這一點但是我覺得當我們討論到很多孩子被害之後在後面做的修補動作倒不如也要多花一點時間在前端因為這個是可以透過教育的就是在前端去教育孩子怎麼樣避免就是去防止這樣的情況發生懂得去自我保護我覺得這一點其實是蠻重要的好不好所以我是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2068.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2071.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2094.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2095.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
爾童及少年性剝削 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2120.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2120.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好,謝謝王委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2150.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2162.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
教育部表示意見教育部對於第四條基本上我們在12年的國民基本教育課綱裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2164.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2179.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
則融入性別平等教育。議題融入手冊裡對於主題,包括身體自主權的尊重及維護性騷擾、性侵、性霸凌的防制,都包含在性剝削相關議題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2180.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2196.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2209.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2223.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林� |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2233.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2260.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
身體自主權的維護及立場表達與行動性騷擾及性侵的自我防護觀念各校都會依課綱規定落實推動性別平等教育議題的相關教學本部國教署為了強化教師的教學智能今年也會以性別暴力防制為主題研發教材包提供國民中小學教師結合在課堂及全校性活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2261.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2286.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那麼也會在近期邀請衛福部、縣市還有學校還有相關的教師團體代表針對兒童性剝削教育如何實施做盡力不得討論來規劃基本能力的架構、教學勢力跟充分運用於校園維護兒童的最佳利益。那目前性平教育法第18條那剛剛趙薇也講國民教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2286.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2309.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
公民中小學將性別教育融入課程外,還要每學期實施性別平等教育相關課程或活動四小時。高級中等學校及專科學校五年制前三年將性別平等教育融入課程,學校可以透過各種主題內容安排進行性剝削相關教學內容。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2314.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2328.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那麼為了要穩健的推動我們這個兒童性剝削的課程跟性別平等教育,五二十二年國教課綱的這個布定跟校定課程,學校會結合地區的資源跟課程多元的彈性,透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2329.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2345.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2346.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2365.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
教育團體的修法意見,教育團體表示每學期至少兩小時的兒童性剝削防制課程,因為目前課程時間已經滿,每學期的總學期輸出有限,修法後所有課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2365.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2388.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案案。案。議員林 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2392.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2421.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2421.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2449.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
第剛剛對於第四條第三項這個幼兒部份剛剛幾位委員也指教那我們的部分也認為是說教保服務人員為兒童性剝削防制條教育的宣導對象透由教保服務人員與教保活動課程設計中建立幼兒園正確的防制觀念對於委員的這個提案這個也就沒有相關其他意見以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2450.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2471.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好,我們請陳昭志委員。是,剛剛教育部的發言就是說沒有再針對性,到最後一兩句帶過。因為這個主席他提的重點是幼兒園應該實施兒童及少年性剝削防制教育。我們要重點在這個,因為他們不懂嘛,剛剛王委員也有講,他們是幼兒,所以你要怎麼教育他們,誰來教育他們。 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2473.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2488.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
就是怎麼讓幼兒會去理解這件事情?誰來做?這個跟剛剛你提到的高中或中學的完全是不同。就是這個重點你要怎麼來做呢?請你就發言就這個部分的重點做回答,麻煩。 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2490.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2490.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2520.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2526.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2542.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2567.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
好 謝謝委員的意見那我想謝謝多位委員都支持這一條應該要入法所以這一條我請教育部就是你們看文字還有哪邊要修不是不修是要修那就是文字怎麼調整剛剛針對委員的意見文字怎麼調整你們待會請相關工作人員就開始去修正好不好那我們這一條先保留再回過頭來的時候我們就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2570.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2592.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
要看這個文字。那這一條我們是要修法的,但是文字請教育部再來做這個相關委員意見的調整。接下來我們進行第五條。第五條提案委員、經費委員有沒有要再補充說明?因為行政機關寫建議維持現行條文。 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2595.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2624.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個非常多委員都已經質詢過上次呢衛福部因為要發行政命令所以過了一到三天才有辦法到數位部那去做封網的動作所以我會希望說假使有重大的兒童性剝削犯罪事件發生就可以儘速成立有這個法源可以成立跨部會的專案小組的話就不會有這麼慢的速度才可以執行也可以直接可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2625.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2632.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
議員林岱樺也有提案。我這邊還是要再三強調,因為大警政署上次有在報告裡面有特別提說展示 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2650.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2665.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2665.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2681.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2682.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2685.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2704.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2733.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我覺得應該要建立被害人的影像資料庫然後建立在警政署而不是現在期待要信影像中心來做信影像中心來做的方法上並不一樣信影像中心來做的是等於是說我今天給了你一個我去信影像中心申訴然後給了一個網路連結然後你就通知那個平台把連結拿下來他根本沒有所謂影像然後甚至展示做的又是比較是在於單比是受害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2733.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2754.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2756.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2776.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
則編大概只是要專責機構如果說我們去年改了那的確2月15號修正之後可先發現新的問題是不是政府部門我想編這些錢跟人不是一個一樣講齁如果以孩子的受到很大的傷害來橫比的話我認為編專責機構編錢來設專責機構跟人一切都是值得的以上請范雲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2785.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2786.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
主要有三個原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2801.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2822.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
因為警方查扣的性影像其實是可以使用軟體生成這個雜臭值就是剛剛岳勤委員講的就是說這個方式那他能夠很快速的做性影像的比對下架那將來如果在網路上發現性影像的話直接就用這個軟體生成的這個雜臭值比對那可以在短時間就知道被害人是誰而且就直接移除如果他曾經報過案已經有這個資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2824.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2827.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具、「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2846.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2869.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2869.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2876.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2889.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2897.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2917.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2917.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
趙執委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2940.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2944.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2957.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2970.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
就是說他是要作為鑑別鑑別或比對等等之用所以是不是在資料庫的名稱上我們從被害人影像、性影像資料庫系統可不可能改成被害人性影像鑑識資料庫系統因為這個資料庫的目的是為了做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2974.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2975.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2993.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3009.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那是不是這個資料庫的查閱也要留下做記錄就是說以上三點就是說不要外包然後第二點就是說這個名稱是不是改成鑑識系統因為它只允許做這些事情第三個就是說要記錄所有查閱過的人好謝謝謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3022.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3039.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我也非常支持資料庫的建立,這個原因有幾個。第一個就是說,我們其實受理機關,不論是處理中心或者是各地方的警政單位,其實他們都有自己轄區界線的範疇,而且都會各司所職。 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3040.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3058.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那其實一個個案往往可能不是只有他看到的一個個案,這個個案可能背後是一個組織性的而且集團性的。那我們知道這個網路啊,網路的越南啊,是無區域的界線,它是無,甚至連國界都沒有了。那所以你用一個受理的機關這麼,他所受理的這個報案數的量這麼少跟整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3064.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3089.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
而資料庫的建立來講它其實是沒有辦法比的所以有一個統整的資料庫在那裡的話我們就可以把全台灣的甚至國際的所有的這個受害的或者是加害的這原始的資料儲存在那裡那即便它是一個區域型的受理的機關它也可以馬上立即的就可以修正比對 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3090.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3101.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
所以這個事情的確是有助於破案也有助於這個受害者的保護的所以面對這種集團組織式的犯罪我們也一定要建立這個資料庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3112.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3125.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
陳委員我只是要呼應因為許多委員都有提到資料庫但是加在第五條我自己是加在第三條但是我可以從善如流我可以從善如流我可以加在第五條我是沒有什麼特別的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3127.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3147.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
關於資料庫的建立,因為我們已經有加報資料庫,所以不管是兒校的或是性侵或是加報等等,其實速發部提供的這些區塊鏈加密等等技術未來應該都要一體適用,因為對於資料的保密還有保存都非常的重要。 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3150.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3170.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
主席,我們在這裡立法的過程,修法的過程,我想我們是不是應該再仔細的談清楚,這個資料庫到底是要放什麼內容?如果今天在這個法律的修法過程沒有把這個內容講清楚、界定清楚,可能在執行上它就跟我們期待的會有落差喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3171.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3180.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以這裡是不是要明定進去或是在立法修那個說明欄裡面也應該寫進去就是說什麼東西應該要放進去這個絕對不能夠空白授權或者是你要空白授權也應該說這個原則訂出來以後然後交給行政執行機關去再訂出執法這樣子這個恐怕有一點複雜所以不能夠空白授權應該稍微再界定一下內容和範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3201.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3227.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
主席不好意思,因為剛剛這個王委員他去質詢了那我再簡單再講剛剛三個重點也跟著回應這個林淑芬委員所提的就是這個資料庫我覺得非同小可所以第一個他應該由官方不准外包我們希望如此第二個就是說他的名稱如果能夠改成影像鑑識資料庫系統跟一般的資料庫不一樣因為他有他特定的目的就是為了保護這個資料安全性第三個凡查閱的人必留下記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3228.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3238.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
就這三個重點,我不曉得有沒有辦法適度也放在這個地方。謝謝主席。那行政單位,警政署有沒有意見表達一下? |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3247.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3268.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十一條條及第五十一條條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3269.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3283.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
警政主管機關應指定並設立專責單位建立被害人性影像資料庫並利用性影像資料庫協助犯罪偵查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3289.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3303.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那有關第二項信用向資料庫資料儲存、管理、使用及提供的辦法由主管機關、衛務部跟內政部會選來來訂定之。內容呢?什麼東西一定要放進去這個資料庫?所有的受害影片以外還有什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3320.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3348.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
內容應該就是說即便是受害的影片也不可以不得已我先解釋一下齁這個東西本來希望建這個資料庫並不是把影像建置下來是要把它轉化成Hash值之後儲存去做比對所以為什麼我這邊寫是說這個資料庫的整個的資料儲存因為如果事實上是影像的話應該會在司法體系被扣押了所以只是要把它轉化成Hash值之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3348.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3376.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3376.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3381.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3399.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3414.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3414.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3436.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3436.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3463.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這個建制在哪裡可能也要討論清楚,但是就是說這個文字我建議以月期就是說能不能調整這個到底這些執行的應進行的程序這相關的執法的規定要由誰訂定就由主管機關會同這個目的事業主管機關去訂定你寫的是內政部但是是是不是只有內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3465.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3483.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
會不會也有需要檢查單位的等等?部長,你要不要表示意見?就是說,如果由主管機關會同目的事業主管機關共同定之,但是這裡面沒有解決到說那到底是要放在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3485.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3502.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
首先,這個條文的前面是警政主管機關要指定或設立專責單位辦理下列事項其中第一款就是要建立被害人現影像資料庫的系統所以主責單位已經是警政主管機關了 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3504.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3527.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
然後這個資料、這個現象資料庫的這些相關的辦法要衛福部來訂,這有點奇怪啦。我是建議,如果說要警政主管機關來設立的話,應該就是警政主管機關基於他在實際上的運作的時候,去訂這些相關的執法規。 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3529.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3551.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
但是需要協同的,大家在討論都忘了蘇衛部了。好。月琴,我聽董部長的講法。他說因為你們第五條的內容規範的是法務部跟內政部,你們要去督導這個指揮地檢署,就是檢警系統去偵查犯罪嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3552.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3575.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那所以這個犯罪資料庫的儲存或者是它的管理或者是說它的資料庫的建立你現在本來是講法務部門和內政部門而且是他們在辦的你現在又把它交回去給衛福部會不會在執行面其實是無法執行的所以你應該執行面還是交給這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3579.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3605.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
不是你們的條文是寫主管機關會同。或者是說應該是法務部、數位部和這個內政部會同主管機關訂定。你們也去參加一起討論啊。原則上他們開會的時候我們一定會去。不要講原則上我們叫法律上要規定。你們必須會同主管機關去。主席看可以發言嗎?對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3607.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3627.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
因為疫情委員的版本原本是那個警政主管機關嘛,所以剛剛我們想確認一下警政主管機關主責這件事情不會反對吧?應該是可以嗎?可以。可以嗎?他們已經同意了。那現在會同誰?那這個是不是部會要協調?我也蠻支持速發部什麼的都進來,法務這些進來喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3629.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3650.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
現在就是說內容應該辦理什麼事項我覺得剛幾位委員都講得很好不管是說要不要叫做鑑別然後加上就是說查誰查的記錄都要留下來然後詳細的內容那是不是能夠以月經委員的版本他這邊有一二三項來做修正那是他們待會兒去擬一下我們晚一點再回來還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3652.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3657.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我們這一條先保留啦看起來是大家意見也很多齁那我個人的看法是主管機關應該是內政部啦然後會同各單位才是正確齁不過又卡到第三條齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3684.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3706.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
第三條還沒有定義主管機關。第三條,所以我們可能回來還要再討論。我們這一條先保留,那我們接續下一條。好,第八條麻煩委員參考新今天早上發的單張的這個第八條的版本。 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3709.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3724.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我們昨天跟部會幾個重要部會討論那我們第八條的修正原則上朝第一個第一項跟第三項配合第三條把這個網際網路的平台應用 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3724.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3728.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
告知網路業者及警察機關及中央主管機關。告知網路業者及警察機關及中央主管機關。告知網路業者及警察機關及中央主管機關。 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3749.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3750.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3765.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3789.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
要二、四小時去移除然後去限制瀏覽這些這個內容跟犯罪有關的網頁資料然後在第七項我們做了一個規定也就是中央主管機關他去命業者的這個處分內容他要記載的一些事項做一個清楚的明定以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3796.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3806.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
各位有沒有意見?這個行政機關的修正更是養蝦子隊喔?寫的比我們寫的還多齁?來陳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3809.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3813.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3839.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3858.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
以至於美國在之後要求網路業者必須保留客戶的IP address至少要18個月。所以他們在2011年有訂出一個Protecting Children from Internet Pornographers Act。它這個時候是規範電子通訊商至少要保留一年足以辨識用的IP還有用戶資訊等等。所以我只是想要把它稍微延長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3867.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3894.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
黃委員先針對第八條第一項就是我們剛剛把所有的網際網路平台提供者或者是網際網路應用服務提供者或網際網路接取服務提供者都統稱為網路業者那我現在就是說因為這個犯罪的這個樣態真的非常的多那賴群組轉傳或者是販售影像那算是哪一種那對於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3895.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3898.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3916.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3942.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這條我想就是我的版本有幾個地方希望大家可以參考第一個就是規範網際網路平台的提供者他必須要公開揭示有關被害人申訴的管道因為我想這個部分其實對被害人權益很重要另外一個就是有規範必要的時候得請求法務主管機關協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3943.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3967.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
透過國際刑事司法互助向外國政府機關或國際組織協助請求。那因為其實我們現在看到很多就是有國際司法需要國際司法互助的時候那這邊也希望能夠就是讓網際網路平台可以來做這個請求不管是請求警察機關等那這個部分我有文字那大家可以參考我的第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3969.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3994.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
另外就是我想這次我們從這個相關的黃子椒相關事件看到就是我們去區隔就是重大犯罪跟一般的就是網頁平台就有就是一兩則違法這個部分是不大一樣那網頁犯罪的情節重大的時候那主管機關就要能夠限制接取這個部分的精神我想就是希望大家都能夠保留支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4000.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4018.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
各位同仁我有一個觀點要請大家一起來討論就是說你知道這個犯罪偵查保留180天那我問你如果業者蓄意然後給他毀損或者不保留要不要刻以刑責滅證罪要不要刻以刑責這算不算滅證因為我們配套後面是只有行政處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4026.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4044.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
可是這個東西是犯罪最重要的紀錄在這裡欸所以我們要不要刻意行走我覺得這個事情要不要討論滅政否則每個業者我如果可以發幾萬元可以省事我也不想惹事那我乾脆就給他滅政滅掉啦欸欸陳委員你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4061.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4064.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4077.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4078.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
網路網際平台提供者、網際網路應用服務提供者及網際網路接取服務提供者 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4096.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4096.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
此外,有關曾經委員提到的180天 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4115.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4115.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
bicyclap |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4147.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4168.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這個名詞統一修改為網路業者我是支持的。第八條我有幾點的疑問。第一個是我們在第四項就是性影像中心得知有這個犯罪嫌疑情勢的時候應通知網路業者。但是第五項是說他這個通知應記載下列事項。 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4168.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4175.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4195.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4206.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
內移除下架,這個是從第六項的主管機關行政處分後起算。這個會不會有比我們現行法規來得還要慢的問題?這個我希望等會可以來說明。好,那請問還有委員要發言嗎?好,來,范雲委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4215.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4236.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我覺得剛剛那個委員那個問題問得非常好,就是我覺得你們這個前項通知一記載這個東西,是不是記到太細了就變成字符手腳,就會變成上次我們去年通過的法其實是很好的,但是衛福部自己的行政規範訂得很細,訂到變成不能去,要求人家下架,所以有必要訂到這麼細然後字綁手腳嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4238.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4241.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4265.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4265.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4279.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4284.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4296.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4296.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4313.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4326.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
則四個單位的事權不統一的時候就會變成大家都看起來有列上去結果可能都會沒去做所以我們還是希望是不是還是回到只要單一的主管機關就好以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4328.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4329.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4344.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4372.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我覺得就的確容易掛萬漏一所以你的這個不管是性影響處理中心的通知或者是中央主管機關的通知最後一款都應該要再加上一個就是說其他應通知事項就是說避免掛萬漏一要列一個可以有一個地方條款的進去這個在立法的體力和技術上應該是很容易處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4373.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4373.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
網路業者第3條 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4390.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4406.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
第三條已經有把那個很長很長的那個全部簡稱為網路業者所以第三條有說明然後另外這個180天建議延長為一年我們在舊法也就是112年修法之前是寫90天 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4408.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4418.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
後來我們也聽到業者還有這個特別是檢警他們的需求所以我們就跟業者討論從90天延長到180天那這樣的一個延長檢警目前他們在使用上面是覺得是可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4427.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4442.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
或許待會聽聽看這個檢警是不是有一些新的發現。然後再來申訴管道的部分就是說這些網路平台業者他的申訴管道大的平台比較有規模的平台基本上他們都有。 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4442.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4450.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4470.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4493.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那對於提到那個重大犯罪的處理部分的確我們在這個八之一就是下一條我們有做另外的一些規範所以這個部分沒有問題那至於剛才提到那個林委員提到那個滅政要不要克與刑責基本上這些平台業者他就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4495.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4518.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我就是給人家寄東西寄賣在這裡他基本上不是一個犯罪者他不會針對他今天被提供的服務的這個客人他放了一個東西然後我怕有刑者因為刑者不在他因為犯罪者不是他他只是一個平台的一個提供讓人家在上面發一些訊息所以基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4519.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4545.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
要不要滅政罪要克與刑責我們待會也要尊重這個司法機關的一個態度立場那另外再講到24小時的部分我們現在已經把從第六項把它移到第一項所以第一時間就24小時那個部分是沒有問題然後另外說沒有通訊這些資料的時候怎麼辦很簡單因為我們在第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4546.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4568.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4568.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4595.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4600.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4620.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
委員好我們跟委員回應一下有關那個國際刑事司法互助的處理這一塊因為我們其實已經有國際刑事司法互助法的法律規定那我們現在如果在刑事偵查中或審判中的案件如果有需要的話我們也都會依照相關的法律來跟國外請求 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4621.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4636.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
但是呢除了這個法律我們也是可以跟雙邊條約協定相關規定跟外國提出但是有一個部分就是大家可能要必須要了解那個跟國外提出請求其實是依照他們的規定他們要先審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4637.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4639.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4656.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4657.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
警政署有沒有補充說明? |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4687.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4693.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4702.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4702.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4731.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4732.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
陳昭之、陳金輝委員、范允委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4751.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4765.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
犯罪行為他不是行為人他不是那個犯罪就是他提供這個兒少性像這個人他提供這個平台啊對他是平台他就是有點像一個電商他就是放在那裡但是人家寄放東西他是沒有審查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4766.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4782.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4782.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4786.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
目前的確是這樣那以前藝人代言很多東西最後他都有責任的啊是這樣嗎我就就教各位啦所以他基本上這些電商他都會有一個聲明他聲明說我這個平台有一些犯罪的這個物品或者是跟犯罪有關就都不用去做一個確認或檢查都不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4808.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4825.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
大平台基本上他們都會有法務人員嘛那這個法務人員因為他就要逐筆逐筆去看他大致上就是做一個瀏覽他也沒有辦法很清確這個是大平台那我想這個內容可能NC會比我們更熟悉我覺得保護師太消極了一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4829.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4831.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4847.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4866.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
對這些案件是有幫助的,所以我也請衛福部可以仔細的思考。那個保存180天這個部分,因為它需要有更大的一個資料,也就是它需要那個容量,那這個部分NCC會跟業者會比較接近,那是不是也請NCC來說明這個部分? |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4868.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4883.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
衛福部也要求我們這邊有這麼多醫護人員衛福部要求我們保存病歷都是五年七年我們都盡量去想地方保存病歷了那個NCC來說一下這個委員好NCC這邊補充報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4884.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4907.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
其實針對資料保存這一百八十天其實以前時間是更短那之所以會變成一百八十天去年其實性暴力、世衛性暴力犯罪防制釋法就是為了這件事NCC也找了業者來討論就是說怎麼樣取得平衡因為儲存空間其實它的成本是蠻高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4908.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4913.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4926.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4927.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4942.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4947.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4968.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4994.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
瞭解那個法務部是不是應該說明一下剛剛NCC講的就是說當你們在偵辦的時候你有一些可能涉及到海外曠日廢食那你如果想要業者保全一些資料你們是不是電子資料你們自己就可以copy回去就不需要一直留在業者那邊超過180天因為那個量不會會很大嗎就你們現在偵辦的情況你們有沒有能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4994.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4996.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
司法部朱瓦君主任檢察官司法部朱瓦君主任檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5016.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5018.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5038.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5040.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5058.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5061.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5081.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5084.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5102.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5117.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
報告召委其實這個我很難說這是不是一定就是足夠因為案件每一個案件的情節不同然後發現的發現需要事證的時間點有時候也不是那麼的一樣所以說這樣子到底是足不足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5118.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5143.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我覺得我很難說因為像去年還有被檢討就是有業者還提出說像日本他們只保存90天如果要增長還需要向法院提出申請我就變成檢警還要向法院提出申請但是申請當然就是時間又過了這樣所以這個即時性所以我們去年就是一直在跟業者做一個協調啦所以這個180天算是業者目前可以接受的範圍內這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5146.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5172.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
好來范雲委員然後林淑芬委員然後那個吳佩儀委員先講就是其實我們去年在修法的時候就是希望24小時內那當時衛福部堅持不要要放在行政命令結果就是說沒有聽我們的結果我們現在就拿放下去那針對那個180天剛剛NCC明明就說那個其實資料並沒有佔很大的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5172.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5176.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具、「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5188.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5192.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5206.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5207.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5226.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5227.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5257.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5257.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
林淑芬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5275.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5296.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
各位我覺得我們今天可能有一個困擾就是說網路業者這個業者的概念實在是太範疇太寬太廣了我們想像你說這個Facebook的經營者或那個平台或是Line平台或是購物平台這種大型的網站平台可是還有一種業者是他只是單純架設一個可能是一個AV的網站的經營者 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5297.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5299.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5317.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5320.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5339.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5354.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那我們也知道說比如說跨國集團的業者你說一個YouTube或者是一個什麼樣的一個業者他們的法尊能力大家suppose都會認為說他們第一個有自律機制有自己內部審理的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5357.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5365.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
或者是說這個購物平台上他有沒有販賣這種影片你會覺得大型的財團的他們也應該法尊能力是相對比較強的可是就我們的感覺就是說那小型的AV網站的經營業者他會有什麼法尊的這個執行能力這個落差實在太大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5376.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5399.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
所以我們今天在討論了業者的樣態為什麼大家討論起來無法聚焦的原因就是因為光是業者的這個概念就是差異這麼大在這種狀況裡面你把所有的平台的提供者、應用服務者、接取服務者都混在一起所以我想說我們是不是應該要根據業者的屬性的不同要不要類似一個分級的 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5402.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5405.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5422.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5446.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那他如果滅症的可能性比較高的話我也認為應該你就是天數我不要求你再增加了180天但是如果你不儲存的話我個人還是堅持的認為說那這樣子的呃呃行事責任我認為也是應該要相對要要有我不要求你保管很多天但你還是不保管而且滅症了那要有行事責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5447.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5474.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那如果是對大型平台而言他們可能都覺得沒問題因為他們自己內部的這個自主管理他們自己的自律他們就平常就在做了所以他不怕嘛但對這種法尊能力很低的小型的網站的經營者而言這個可能對他們就有約束力啊所以這個我們在這裡一直在討論這個就是因為光是業者差異就落差很大啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5475.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5477.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
好,謝謝。來,吳佩儀委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5479.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5507.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我還是需要衛福部把我剛剛提的關於第四項的不是影像中心會不會今天因為你們訂定了這麼多印記載的事項會不會只是因為拿不到這個網路業者和行為人的聯絡電話或是姓名會不會少了一項他就沒有辦法進行通知這一點為什麼那麼的重要因為我們今天修法討論一個很重要的事情就是實務上大多數的被害者這個因為司法的偵辦就是匡慾廢食 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5508.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5528.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
大家最需要的是我已經申訴之後我的影像可不可以趕快下架不要說24小時多一個小時都是一個痛苦那你們現在這個在你的建議修正條文說明裡面為什麼我說這個通知這麼重要你看你的第五項裡面雖然第四項性影像處理中心的通知是叫做觀念通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5529.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5556.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
你是雙軌的沒有錯但是你的中央主管機關要能夠去進行處分你的前提是中央主管機關在收受第四項也就是性影像處理中心的通知之後他才能去令網路業者24小時之內下架也就是說如果你前一項我剛講的性影像中心如果因為他少了一個名字少了一個電話他沒辦法去通知那主管機關中央主管機關也沒辦法去進行他後面的處分了 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5556.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5572.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
在中間,也許就是缺了那個電話,可能不是多一個小時,可能要多一個禮拜。這沒有辦法處理我們現在面臨到的問題。那在所有委員提的版本裡面,都沒有人去提這麼細的應記載事項。所以這個衛福部我還是需要你們把這一點說明清楚。 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5573.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5600.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好 謝謝林岱請委員針對於我覺得有兩關一個是專門店就像創意私房一個真的像剛才市長講的是說可能真的是上次一個店家像迪卡有人來放了一個連結所以如果他本來就是有意要犯罪有意要來做這些事情我也認為應該要保留時間越長我們才可以讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5601.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5604.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
閱讀委員黃捷等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5624.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5624.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
議員黃捷等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5638.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5664.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那放了多久?所以我覺得這個還比較單一點反而是那個重大犯罪像創意私房或觸感空間那個重大最大惡極的這樣的他有意本來就要作證保留360天我們事實上是希望找到更多被害的因為很多時候被害的人是不知道他原來被害那去找到這些來遏止繼續犯罪所以我認為這個如果保留長一點當然會比較好是說可以讓他們去做偵辦以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5666.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5686.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
好 謝謝那那個剛剛吳佩儀委員特別提到那個通知你寫的這麼的鉅細靡遺反而會不會造成是一個限制我覺得這個是你們要考慮清楚的因為如果你前面宣示是要及時24小時結果後面又自行設下障礙說漏了一個什麼他提不出來結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5687.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5689.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
議員,這次我們把這個因記載事項寫清楚的原因是因為你今天通知業者說你的網站裡面有十萬筆資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5704.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5721.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那其中你那個十萬筆資料裡頭其中有一筆就是我們的兒少的這個性影像那我總是要告訴業者說那這個你的網站名稱以及這一筆資料到底是他的那個IP到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5722.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5736.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
所以我們會因為他有涉及到這個網路平台業者他要把那一張影像要移除所以你不給他寫清楚他無法執行那他無法執行我們在後面四、七條就會有一個罰則甚至他要遭受到封網 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5740.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5742.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5761.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5785.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
該說目前執行不會有困難那如果他沒有這些通訊這些我們要通知他的這些訊息我們就直接進行封網這個我們在第八條八條之一上面有寫清楚那不會因為說我要把這個訊息寫清楚會導致24小時的延宕不會那但是我要重申的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5786.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5790.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5810.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5810.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5841.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5863.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
主席我還是希望行政部門考慮我剛才講的說業者的樣態實在是差異太大了有沒有分級管理的可能性第一個第二個我是我覺得吳佩奕委員講的我也覺得是也可以討論那個討論是因為他講的也有道理但是我要在這裡請教行政部門的就是說如果沒有把這些明定下來我們就直接授權給你們去做的話有沒有這個權利義務關係不明確沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5868.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5878.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
而因為法律的保留原則法律的明確性必須在這個魔法裡面放上去如果沒有的話沒有這個法律保留原則你就要直接去規範他的權利要受損的話這個在法律上 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5884.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5897.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
只是單純授權給你們去制定施行細則或是執法的話這是不行的除非就是說他這個有沒有權利義務關係需要符合法律保留原則和法律的明確性否則的話的確是就怕掛萬肉依就不要了 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5901.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5921.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那如果有這個法律保留原則的必要性的話那麼我們就當然是在這種必須進行的程序裡面我們明定了以後那怕掛彎漏衣我們再加一個第四款或是其他款要掛一個其他的得住宅、得記載或是應記載事項怕掛彎漏衣的話你要有一個這個例外條款讓我們不會自負手腳啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5931.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5934.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
好,那這部分衛福部有回應嗎?來,部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5939.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5962.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這個第八條首先我想再review一下,因為其實上一次我們有討論過,當然有幾位委員可能在討論的那一個時間點剛好不在,所以我再重新再提醒一下。那第八條的用意它是這樣子,第一個就是說網路業者知道了,就第一項的部分, |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5963.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5976.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
知道有透過內容防護機構、性影像處理中心、主管機關等通知網路業者有兒童的性影像 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5988.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6012.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
讓他有一個機會是可以自律的把它下架下來這是第一項第二項的話這個保留180天是後續可能會有犯罪偵查的必要性所以這些平台業者要求他就是說網路業者要求他要保留180天 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6014.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6036.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
剛剛十分委員在提的就是兩種狀況一個是自己架設的網站其實就在做這種工人瀏覽這個兒童性影像這個是他本身就是行為人所以他不是只有網路業者而已他本身就是行為人他已經變成是要犯罪偵查的對象了 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6037.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6055.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那這種情形的話,你當然要他保存180天還是什麼,他如果知道說犯罪偵查會到他頭上去,他顯然不會服從這一個。所以那個時候是我們犯罪偵查啟動的時間點,要什麼時候開始啟動的問題。也許檢警認為說稍等一下, |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6065.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6085.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
則說修正還不太夠,所以先不動他,要過個兩三天。也許他認得說他已經修正夠,對,因為他是行為者。這一條在訂的所謂的網路業者,其實要保存的是指的是一般的那些,像Facebook、Google等等這些,是這一類的。所以180天, |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6088.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6097.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
讓他們去保存,大概跟他們做了一個協調,那是他們可以負擔的一個範圍。第三項的部分,在犯罪偵查或者是說審理中 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6104.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6128.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
被害人去要求可以把這個影像再download下來。這個縣市主管機關的話就要來做協助。這是第三項。第四項的時候就是現項處理中心知道了有這些犯罪嫌疑的,他要通知網路業者,其實就是回到第一項,就是這一個通知。 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6129.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6139.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
第二、同時通知警察及中央主管機關必須啟動犯罪偵查或中央採取預防措施。犯罪偵查部分由警政法務單位啟動,但重點是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6153.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6174.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
現影像處理中心必須趕快告知中央主管機關。這個通知應該是比較簡單就好。所以我們訂了三個事項,讓現影像處理中心可以來遵循。你要通知就通知這三項就好,就簡單。 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6176.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6193.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
它是一個啟動,它等於是一個啟動。然後再過來的話,就是第六項的部分。第六項,因為如果是犯罪偵查啟動的部分的話,就警政他們會去做處理。但是以中央主辦機關是要做行政的作為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6194.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6219.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
行政座委接受影像處理中心後,必須在24小時內令網路業者依照第一項規定。這個時候是第二步驟。第一個步驟是讓他自律,他可以自行下架。但是到了第六項的部分的話,就是已經要進入行政處分了。就是說我們命他下架。 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6220.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6244.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
如果他自己已經自行下架當然要回答就很容易就說我已經自行處理如果他沒有依照第一項自行下架的時候那我們就會用第六項開始做這個處分就是說要求他24小時之內的話再把它確實的下架因為如果沒有的話那就後面會有處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6248.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6263.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
這已經是一個行政處分了這一個部分的話我們也問過行政院的法規會他是認為說這樣子的一個行政處分的內容最好是要明確一點所以他給我們的建議就是這九點這九點 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6268.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6283.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
其實這是必要的記載事項前項處分的內容應記載下列事項應該就必須要記載的東西但是除此之外並不是說不能再做其他的記載 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6284.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6290.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我想佩儀問的應該是說你應記載的事項裡面會不會有執行的至愛難行或困難之處導致於你無法進行這一些程序也無法記載因為沒有辦法有網址等等或是其他困難等等所以變成無法執行這一條法律他問的是這個問題有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6308.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6322.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
然後在技術上這也要問執行單位就檢警也要來討論你們把自己手腳束縛起來了寫得太明確了導致於無法辦案那要有沒有自愛難行之處有沒有可能會遇到啦你應記載這事項這有沒有可能啦好謝謝來五位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6328.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6329.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6343.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6361.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
有沒有涉及到行政處分?沒有嘛,對不對?照你的說明它是觀念通知。既然是觀念通知,就沒有如同你剛剛講的,你要記載那麼多,不然會有行政處分的問題。所以說我的建議是啦,第四項這一條,你的前項通知應記載下的事項,是不是這個應可以改為得? |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6363.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6366.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6379.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6380.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6400.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6417.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
委外在做處理的他是一個民間業者接受我們委託去做這些其實他是收集資訊然後再做這種資訊的流動而已那民間業者的話你如果沒有給他寫得很清楚的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6418.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6441.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那就容易會產生一些爭議出來因為他要通知給除了通知這個網路業者之外他還通知給這個行政機關那我們希望就是說讓他有所遵循當然沒有寫在法律上然後我們就做一個內部因為這委外他必須要有合約嘛在合約裡面去訂的話也不是不可以啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6442.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6470.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
但是定在這裡的話會比較清楚一點因為他要通知的內容至少應該要這些所以用英字比較好用德的話等於什麼都沒有寫也可以那個部長我可以問一個問題我想這個行政事項本來就是你們在執行現在委員提出來這些疑問只是在問說會不會因為你明文之後導致效率變差或者是說去通知因為寫得太詳細 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6470.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6471.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
議員的三款,麻煩委員看三款。 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6493.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6515.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
第一個講的是這個網站名稱一定有這個網址還有這個性影像的網址一定有這個如果沒有的話他不會來申訴第二個行為人這個網路平台這個平台的帳號或者他的協定位置講的就是那個IP第三個通知國家機關就是我啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6516.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6516.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6532.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6539.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6559.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6563.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
主席我是不是請其他這個是簡單通知那接下來要行政處分的這個通知也應該了解衛福部或檢審單位執行面因為也是寫得很強烈應進行下列事項要記載下列事項有沒有執行面困難的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6586.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6613.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
因為我這個裏面講的更多,一共有九條。對,那個都是他們自己要去執行的。不是啦,那檢審要回答說他們執行面會不會有比較困難的、無法執行的。好,那林岱請問是同樣的問題嗎?對,我也要問,因為剛剛部長一直解釋的,我覺得聽起來好像寄賣點,像滴卡有一個這樣的網頁,有人放了這樣的一個影片之後,你的第八條要處理的是這樣,如果是創意私房是不在這邊, |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6615.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6615.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
委員黃娟豪 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6633.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6634.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
黃秀芳委員是放在八條之三嗎?我是放在第八條裡面,可是你們現在並沒有八條之三的資料給我們。 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6657.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6658.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
黃娟豪委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6678.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6694.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
好,謝謝喔,那個我想請教行政機關,因為我想從頭到尾討論都是講在講說這個通知的這條法律理論上講,像比如說是Dcard或YouTube這種看起來本來就合法的平台,所以當然沒有問題嘛好,但是實務上面,其實台灣有很多論壇 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6696.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6722.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
他到底何不法維修我也不是很清楚啦,就是說什麼伊利論壇、什麼捷克論壇,有的沒有論壇,上面很多人都沒有影片。那像這種論壇他本身有點灰色或他可能直接加在國外。那他如果論壇上面有這樣的影片,那我們要通知這個論壇下架他的時候,他是不是也要明確的記載他的國家機關聯絡人、姓名、電話、電子郵件,你們的通知才會送達,才算嗎?我的意思說如果今天這些論壇, |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6724.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6743.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這個論壇上面有很多資訊他不一定只有兒少影片而已他有很多什麼違法電影也好或是各種音樂也好圖片也好好那論壇本身本身可能也不是合法可能也不在境內那這樣子如果出現問題的時候會不會因為沒有電話或因為沒有聯絡人姓名那你的通知就不送的 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6744.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6765.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
應該是問題在這裡啦,我覺得這比較麻煩在這個地方吧,會嗎?跟委員說明,那個通知國家電話姓名,那個都是指我們通知的,所以不是對方。對方他有會留一個網址或者是email,我們就直接用email通知他,這個在第八條之一都會有寫。 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6766.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6774.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
寫那個怎麼通知然後通知如果通知沒收到要怎麼處理都會在第八條之一再來處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6775.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6799.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
好,謝謝,那我這樣理解,那再來還有一條就是說第六項你們提到說收受第四項通知後應急令網路業者依第一項規定,後面擺了吧?那個應急令到底這個急是多快?因為你們剛剛部長在說明的時候都說24小時內嘛但是這個24小時我想第一個問題是是你們24小時內令網路業者要去下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6800.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6807.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6821.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6847.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
會不會有法律上的問題?沒有,這極臨的極致的是行政機關的處理的時間,就是越快越好,就這樣。但是,這一個業者就收到通知,也就是送達之後24小時,現在你要完成。寫在哪裡?對不起。寫在第一項,第八條第一項。第一項就是宅民就是24小時內限制瀏覽移除。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。那那個,誰? |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6850.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6859.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
主席我一直在說檢審有我現在就是要請他們講我現在一直說因為我比較不知道所以我說你有IP就一定可以通知的到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6862.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6890.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
因為我比較關心的是後面主管機關的這個建行的程序還有那個應記載的事項然後有辦法百分之一百執行嗎?因為是應嘛那剛剛講的說比如說一個你說寸毅司法當然他是犯罪行為的人可是剛才那個委員講的說一個論壇裡面他可能放了影片很多或是一部影片裡面他可能是成人的拍攝的可是裡面可能有不小心拍到 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6891.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6891.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
而在此狀況之中, |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6898.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6919.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
沒關係,我們就請行政主管機關回答,因為這是規範行政主管機關該做的事項,如果不行,他們應該自己要提出來。因為這個有行政處分在裡面,所以法律當然要很明確,要有保留原則的精神。因為如果這樣明文記載,就是行政機關要使命必達,對不對?對,一定要使命必達。如果不行,是他們要提出來,所以就是衛福部有沒有問題?衛福部不是執行偵查的這個機關啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6922.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6940.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
沒有,跟委員報告,第八條並沒有講檢警那一塊,刑事案件那一塊,不在第八條。第八條都是行政處分,都是行政機關的作為。那有帳號、有IP就一定通知得到嗎?抱歉,這件我比較不知道的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6940.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6941.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
有網址就一定通知得到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6961.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6980.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
它會有一個註冊,像國外的網站、國外的論壇,它會有一個域名。我們是目前是在這個,在這個Whois的一個系統。我想這個部分我們請NCC或者司法部來補充。NCC補充一下,來。就是執行上必須100%全部都可執行這樣子。 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6985.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7009.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
報告委員,據我所知,域名的登記他是要登記,就是去申請那個網域,他是要去登記,那每個國家是不太一樣,像在台灣的話就是TWNIC,就是蘇衛部所管轄的那個TWNIC,在那邊做域名登記,那登記上面他自然就會留所有的資料,登記者跟那個所有的IP,那這個是先跟委員會報告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7010.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7029.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
所以這個在執行上面都是沒有問題的。我跟各位委員報告,第八條事實上是在規範行政部門,它在執行面。所以原則上我知道委員大家都是好意,有各式各樣不同的角度提出來。那這個條文,其實委員大家的善意都是要確保主管機關可以執行。 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7030.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7038.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十一條條文修正草案。案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7053.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7070.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
沒有沒有我我我我先就是衛福部那邊齁你們今天早上才給我們這個第八條建議修正版跟八條之一喔我們等於是現場在做工作齁然後搞不清楚我們關心的第八條其實放在第八條之一裡面啊剛剛一開始報告的時候又沒有把它講得很清楚所以就變成討論起來有點混亂然後花了大家很多的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7074.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7074.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7093.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7096.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7112.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7112.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7129.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7129.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
委員黃捷等 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7159.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7164.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7185.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7185.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7201.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7219.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我還是有個意見我還是希望能夠把那個就是公開的申訴管道加入為什麼要這樣講因為剛剛雖然衛福部司長說大型的都已經有這個公開申訴管道了可是如果你小型你要求他一定要有這個部分的話那很多受害人根本不需要那個部分應該不是在第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7220.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7249.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
不在第八條,你們有規範在別的地方嗎?我們對平台業者的申訴管道,我們並沒有要求他一定要。但我想要跟委員溝通是說,我們現在為什麼要成立一個單一窗口,讓網路業者也比較清楚說一旦性影像處理中心通知的就是兒童的性影像。那如果你把你的通知的窗口分得很散,反而會影響他影像移除的時間。 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7250.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7251.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
閱讀者們的意見是否應該因為沒有相關版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7269.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7271.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
網際網路平台提供者、網際網路應用服務提供者及電信事業應設置相關被害人申訴管道逗號並公開揭示職。 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7292.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7312.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那因為我們有婦女團體接觸到成型人的時候發現其實你這樣子有些就自行處理了他就不用到信箱中心了嘛 對不對就有一些比較小的那個平台啊那你現在大型平台有這個管道但是你有一些小的就是說應該要讓他們知道要公開揭示申訴管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7313.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7337.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這個就是非官方的他自己的一個負責自律的行為。好,那我們建議保留,因為這個部分我們也沒有辦法跟這麼大、這個世界各國的這些網站或者是這些業者做溝通。因為之前都沒有提到這個部分。那我們的確知道目前我們在台灣落地的這些大型的業者都有。 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7337.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7353.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
因為他要申訴他不是只有針對性影響他一定是他自己的服務項目都要給他的服務對象或者是他的業他的這個怎麼講就是使用者有一個好的一個申訴所以我想如果我們今天載明在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7354.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7380.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
但是對於他沒有這樣的申訴管道目前我們是沒有處罰啦那我們要處罰是因為性影像所以如果他沒有這些通知的管道我們更好處理就是直接做限制擷取我還是要再聲明那是從你的角度從受害人角度他如果低時經典我們現在講的被害人都是性影像那他就有申訴管道甚至不用到你那裡去了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7381.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7381.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7406.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7406.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
議員主席響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7427.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7434.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7462.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7476.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7489.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7518.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案。案 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7523.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7530.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7913.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7916.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
好,來我們繼續開會請大家就座。好,那接下來我們進到八字一條的討論。八字一條這個我這邊有提案,那主要就是希望可以達到及時下架跟封網的目的。八字一其實就是要賦予主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7942.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7960.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
可以停止解析跟犯罪有關的網域名稱。那這個部分呢,這個主管機關也有提了一個內容更多的這個修正的建議修正的版本。為了避免大家那個待會討論會有點失焦,所以我們就先請這個主管機關把這一條你的立法的目的重點, |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7965.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7985.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
稍後再說一下,我們再進行討論,好不好?來,請。好,謝謝趙薇。謝謝委員。那我們在第八條之一呢,延續第八條的一個立法例。接下來就是我們考量到這個網路的一個特性。對於網路業者所做的行政處分, |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7986.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8012.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
如果以傳統的書面方式在利用郵件送達的時間它會非常冗長而且緩不濟急因此我們明定本條例有關的行政處分可以用電子文件的方式利用網路傳輸傳送到網路業者他有公開揭示或者他指定的電子郵件 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8013.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8030.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
而同時在法條裡頭直接把它說它這個就是視為送達這是第一個第二個部分我們在第二項新增電子郵件送達的效力規定以及電子送達可能會發生的一些狀況以及如何處理的方式這個內容也嶄明在第三、第四、第五項 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8039.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8042.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
最後,我們橫著實務許多網站都設在境外,這些境外業者未必會公開揭示聯絡資訊,也有可能導致無法做行政送達,或者網頁資料設有犯罪嫌疑情節重大, |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8061.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8078.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
又或者這個網路業者被限制接取了就像這一次這個創意司法他被限制接取了他又更換了一個網域或IP那另外又重新被接取就另外又開張那這些呢都可以主管機關都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8084.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8099.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
則為限制接取,也就是我們在法律裡頭直接明定。那同時呢,我們要在第七項去也在說明,那我們在做這一項限制接取的時候,相關部會要協力來執行該項工作。以上說明。好,謝謝衛福部的說明。那就交各委員有沒有意見。好,來陳昭志委員、林月琴委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8112.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8116.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
關於下列形象之一,主管將得為限制接取。關於下列形象之一,主管將得為限制接取。 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8132.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8145.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
可否合併我的四十七條再提出來的也有一點就是一樣的就是說跟前端這個有所謂的得為限制擷取的一些樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8147.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8172.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
只是我這邊比較有特別去提出來因為還有一種方法不是只有限制擷取或採取適當的流量管制措施這也是一種手法我覺得也可以併入還有另外一個我在這邊有特別提到是說因為有一次部長這邊有提到說基本上行政如果採取之後沒有得到法律授權的話會有疑慮所以我這邊有寫說併於三日內向法院申請緊急 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8173.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8174.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
議員,其他委員有意見嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8198.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8198.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8210.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8239.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
有。來表述下一卷。是。剛才林委員提到的那個採取適當的流量管制那另外就是也好幾次提到說布朗講的是法律風險基本上是布朗講的法律風險是指現行法條還沒過之前我們在施行細則裡頭跟這個地方的主管機關有做劃分所有的行政處分或者是限制接取的行政處分照理說是地方的主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8240.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8241.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
議員提到的要跟法院申請限制令,我們待會也聽聽看司法院的立場。 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8263.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8291.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
總之如果是走昨天前天那個林淑芬委員有特別提到是不是雙軌基本上他就雙軌而這第八條之一完全是行政處分不是指司法這一塊那委員又把司法那一塊的這個限制限制令那可能我們待會聽聽看司法院的意見那剛才委員有提到說那個德維限制接取那只要是情況危急因為我們有三款寫的那個三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8292.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8310.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
只要符合其中一款,它立即就是可以做限制接取。那之後它的行政救濟我們也會在這個限制接取的這個行政處分裡頭去載明。欸那些我剛剛提還有一種手法就是採取適當的流量管理措施這可行嗎?我們要請教專家請速發布在技術上給予說明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8318.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8347.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
好來那個行政機關先先說明一下這個部分先說明待會請黃建豪委員是呃包主席那稅務部針對流量管制的這個部分的看法是認為說這個部分違法的一個內容基本上就已經是不應該讓民眾看得到但是流量管制是讓民眾看得到但是會比較慢所以這樣子似乎的一個效果而且就是說實務上也沒有這樣的執法經驗齁這個是我們的考量以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8347.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8350.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8355.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8382.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
呃謝謝呃這個林委員齁對於那個就是四十七條現在希望可以提到第八條之一來去做一個這三日內的這個法院申請緊急資訊限制令齁那先前我們有向林委員說明就是目前在我們的相關的立法體力上那呃有這個三日接受或者是向呃外國人收容他是十五日齁接受法院的司法審查那通常都是屬於憲法第八條的法院審問 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8383.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8409.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
涉及人身自由的部分比如說兒少福權法我想那個交委也知道就是緊急收容或者兒少性剝削超過72小時必須要接受法院的司法審查那就是保護案這事件但是這一類的緊急限制令我們還是認為說由於現在這個網路的時代那其實必須是快速的攔截包括封網跟下架那行政機關就會像我剛剛跟部長有交換一點必須要像防疫這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8410.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8413.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8426.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8451.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那這時候呢趕快讓他下來之後他本來行政處分後續就有相關的行政救濟的程序所以司法也是在後盾所以對於相關的權利人比如說前面的崩亡其實過度了那後面怎麼樣去做一個橫頻的處理我覺得司法其實基本上是一個去處理這樣的一個平衡性涉及這些關係人的權利利益那所以我們會建議說這個林委員的這個想法是好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8452.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8479.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
不過這個部分的限制令可能要看事務的性質去做一個決定。那以上補充,謝謝。好,了解。來,黃建豪委員。剛剛那個趙志偉提到這個德維限制接取,那剛剛請問回應說是這三種特殊的情況下面德維限制接取。那既然是這三種情況就表示說你們可能這個聯繫不到,那這個情形是持續在發生。那為什麼是德維對這個自有意見呢?應該是因為吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8479.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8481.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
吳佩儀委員、林岳勤委員、林淑芬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8502.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8524.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這個唯有處理一條附帶決議其實就是第八條之一的這個精神因為當時不知道衛福部的態度那我唯一想要確認就是因為我們現在處理的是可以即時處置那我們裡面的文字是說主管機關任有犯罪嫌疑情節重大我想要確認的是主管機關是否就指衛福部那這個情節重大我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8525.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8533.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
有沒有一個評判的標準?因為我比較擔心的是我們法律授權但之後在執行上面還是會有無法清楚定義的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8535.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8563.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
好來林委員我這邊也要提醒的是說如果假設今天滴卡有一個影片是這樣的話那你有沒有辦法是馬上封網它全部的整個全部影響到不是像創意私房那樣子所以我們才會說提出來另外一種就是說你讓它所謂的適當流量管制措施因為你不可能把整個滴卡全部因為它只有一個影片而已不像創意私房當然我們同意全部直接封網 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8564.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8566.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8581.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8596.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
整個網站上本來他就是要做犯罪的那只是單一有人放了這個所以我們才說採行這個措施因為你這邊也有講到該網頁資料所涉犯罪嫌疑情節重大可是你不可能封整個網以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8598.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8624.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
好,林淑芬委員好,我現在要討論的就是說這個第二項跟第四項這個有沒有進行程序上的先後問題因為顯然這個最後一項這個三款的不是就是倒數第二項這三款的條件可以的特別程序就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8626.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8632.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8654.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8654.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8684.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8685.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
對於剛剛林委員所提到的這個問題,就是我們這一次碰到的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8698.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8714.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我們這一次的碰到問題就前面會有一個程序做完之後沒有辦法去處理了才後來又跳過那個程序跳過縣市然後我們就做直接的封網這一次就是要解決這個問題所以我們把這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8718.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8718.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
當然這三款的情形是不是非常的適當? |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8735.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8749.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
得職階限制接取,要不要先進行前面的程序?不用!因為如果要符合這三款的情形之下的話,內容各位也可以... |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8750.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8777.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
這個三款也不能隨隨便便啟動當然一啟動就是情節重大但是就是說那你總是要一個理由這個理由就是說他是緊急狀況對當事人權利侵害嚴重的狀況那當然這個明確性要怎麼討論在第二款裡面情節重大對當事人的這個傷害這個這個要不要也是必須具體的在法律裡面要寫上去啦我是建議因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8779.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8795.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
這個條文當時大家會希望授予衛福部有這個封網的權利就是它過去的模式就是太按部就班然後太緩慢程序太繁複所以這次修法才要賦予它 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8795.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8797.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8821.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8844.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以如果他在網站上面有出現兒少這些影像的話那不用講就是情節重大就應該要立即採取下架的措施或者是封網的手段所以我覺得我們應該把前面的那個但是主席你這樣講的話就是說那也不需要情節重大反正就是有兒少影片全部都是情節重大如果是性剝削影片當然是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8845.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8872.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
當然要立刻採取手段,我們之前不是有這樣的公式嗎?我是同意你的講法,但是就是說我們這裡你還特別強調裡面叫做情節重大,那顯然因為會這樣就要再界定一個情節重大了,那我們是不是只要認為有這個兒少影片的,未必…性剝削影片。如果兒少性剝削影片,那未必免犯罪要危害當事人的擴大,需緊急處理,那這樣的話每一個都可以這樣子限制接取了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8874.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8890.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
本來就是,我們就是希望,有兒童性剝削影片就是重大,我們的立法精神就是這樣子。我的意思是說,那也不用前面了啊,那我們只要有就直接這樣子。那得限制,這個就得了,因為你可以自行判斷要或是不要嘛。那如果是這樣子的話,我們為什麼還要前面的第二項呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8900.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8922.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
就是說我們尋一般程序我們根本不需要了我們只要是有兒少性剝削的影像應該直接就是你看是要通知或者是直接要限制接取隨便我們不是隨便抱歉我想說應該是交給主管機關自行判定然後自行決定了那這樣子前項的那些程序也不需要了 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8923.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8944.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
他現在就是要增加電子嗎?電子送達就是最快?不是,只要有兒少性剝削影像,都是情節重大,都是緊急,而且都是重大的侵害,而且都是影響很大的。那是不是在這種狀況裡面,我們為什麼還要再去進行普通程序, |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8946.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8951.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
目前我們在處理的案件其實是兩種類型第一種類型是比如說你在LINE裡面去傳了一個兒少性剝削相關的這些性影像 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8970.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8989.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
有人把他傳上去,在群組裡面去跑來跑去,這是要不讓他下架的。所以這一類的,就是要依照前面的一二三四,我們要通知他下架。但是我們不是把整個的Line把它封掉,因為這事實上也做不到。 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8990.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9018.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
但是後面的這個剛剛提到的這個限日接取的部分就是針對的是網站式的他有一個網站那裡面就有這些兒少、兒少性剝削的這些現象的資料那委員剛剛提到的說如果所有牽涉到兒少都是情節重大那這樣子我們就把情節重大拿掉就變成任網頁資料所涉犯罪嫌疑為 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9019.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9020.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
謝謝部長的說明,來范雲委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9037.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9060.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
這個我要講一下喔因為就是這個文字版本其實應該是來自我的因為我是最早在我們立法院提出這個情節重大然後為阻止犯罪危害之發生與避免擊破危險有及時處置必要主管機關得及時強制限制接取因為就是發現我們去年修的法那本來是叫它你們行政規範裡面寫24小時嘛限制瀏覽移除後來發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9064.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9093.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
你們因為說沒有給主管機關這個權限就無法處理嗎所以我最早的版本提出來的時候把這個放進去那我看你們的文字是拿我這個部分來修正但是保留了那個犯罪情節重大然後及時處置然後主管機關得及時強制限制擷取那我的想法是說如果犯罪情節重大本來我還有加個文字或曾遭限制擷取者因為創意私房就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9094.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9121.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那這個部分到底要不要留情節重大因為情節上是給主管機關一個判斷的空間或者是像剛剛林樹峰委員我們只要意思留下為阻止這個什麼什麼什麼就是及時為避免犯罪違壞擴大或避免急迫危險其實他的意思是一樣的那我本來的文字就是德那德就是給你們一個空間那如果你要改成因的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9122.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9142.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
其實我覺得他的意思也都是一樣的那最重要就是說這個文字已經在這那執行上對你們到底有什麼影響我想是你們那個行政機關可以告訴我們的好不好就有放情節重大跟沒放情節重大德跟英的差別到底是什麼是不是行政部門跟我們解釋清楚我們才能做個判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9143.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9162.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
好,還有沒有委員真的這一條要表示意見的?好,來。我是支持把情節重大拿掉,因為我剛剛提出來就是擔心說到時候這法定下去,會不會那個衛福部不敢認說這一案是不是情節重大,那就沒有辦法去處理到我們原先希望的可以及時處置限制接取的狀況。 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9163.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9164.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9182.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9207.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
主管機關有一個審酌權這是第一個那如果第二款如果是情節重大不確定的名稱、文字是不是可以建議改成犯罪嫌疑重大犯罪嫌疑重大因為這個三款有層次第一款呢就是講他根本這個業者根本不讓你聯絡就我的資料根本沒辦法告訴你你要停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9208.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9225.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9225.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9235.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9255.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9259.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
為了避免危害擴大,避免急迫危險,那為什麼要避免犯罪? |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9288.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9315.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
什麼叫避免犯罪?那什麼叫避免犯罪?這四個字應該為什麼要放這個字眼?就是說這個網頁的資料裡面的內容已經有這個兒少性剝削影像那為避免危害擴大或避免這個急迫危險有立即即時處置之必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9317.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9342.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
委員這裡面因為有一個頓號其實它是犯罪的擴大跟危害的擴大危害擴大比方說這一個兒少的性影像在那邊如果再傳出去的話就違法擴大犯罪擴大因為我們現在去看的人、付費看的人也是一個犯罪這就越來越多的犯罪的人進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9350.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9358.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
懸疑重大就是說可以來實務上面去判斷說成立犯罪的可能性是高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9360.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9365.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這就是所謂的犯罪嫌疑擴大,不是犯罪情節重大。 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9377.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9400.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
好 來 范瑩委員在黃州防衛 在廖瑋祥委員我說明一下我當時的版本為什麼會說犯罪情節重大講的就是這種交易購買的因為有一些不是交易購買的網站就是等於是一整個網站就是付費購買這種根據說有人未經同意或者兒少及青少年沒有同意權對不對放上去的單格的是不大一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9401.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9401.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
黃秀芳、廖瑋祥委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9417.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9418.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9439.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9458.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
同時都會要交給檢警單位,所以最後他們也是會做確認。以主管機關來講的話,主要的是說要及時去把它截止掉。所以第一時間是由你們去認定它是犯罪?對。好來,廖偉強委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9463.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9489.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
其實這個剛剛講我們完全都有共同的一個共識就是說針對這種真實有受害者然後這些購買的嫌疑這個嫌疑重大可是我想問問衛福部你們這樣子寫就是你們的概念我也想要問一些我們在過去聽到民間的聲音啦比如說當初大家也很擔心說這樣子的無限擴權這個ACG產業你們是不是擔心說你就是設定這個東西就是希望有一個區隔對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9490.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9518.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
對嘛。但是我也很認同。那我的意思是說既然是這樣有沒有需要再把它更具體的把它描述出來?因為其實現在也有很多所謂ACG產業的創作者。對。是。是。謝謝委員提醒。那我們在這個ACG產業的部分我們先前已經有跟業者討論。我們在第二條的說明欄裡頭已經把它排除。做區隔。這全部都是真實的兒少性影像。 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9520.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9522.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9529.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9531.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
可是這第三條要建立的又是變成什麼主管機關、教育主管機關? |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9554.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9555.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9567.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9573.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9589.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9615.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
請問各位還有沒有意見?如果沒有意見的話我想這個主要是這次修法的重點我們也希望這個賦予主管機關更大的權限可以及時去做這個封網避免整個受害者他這個危害的程度再加大那所以原則上應該大家都是同意這樣的一個條文的通過那最後只有在這個剛提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9616.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9636.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
認定犯罪嫌疑重大,衛福部是把情節兩個字刪除,就是所涉犯罪嫌疑重大,為避免犯罪危害擴大或避免擊破危險而有及時處置之必要時。那這個文字,不曉得法務部最後還有沒有什麼意見?如果沒有意見,我們就要這樣通過了。來,請法務部表示意見。針對剛剛衛福部提出來的,把這個情節兩個字刪除。 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9645.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9647.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9666.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9695.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9695.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9712.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
但是如果我放的是情節重大那就會看整個網站一百萬個會員裡面它的比例是不是已經像創意司法為什麼我們大家都很支持就是說整個這些封網的原因就在於說它的網站可能七八成以上全部都是非法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9713.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9737.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
所以這樣的話就變成是所謂的情節重大所以嫌疑重大跟情節重大其實它還是有區隔的意味在所以就假設我們是屬於合法網站的業者像我剛才講的臉書、YouTube這一種的話那可能在主管機關它就可以去思考說其實這些業者的配合度都很高那我們就是走前面的程序我通知他,他就會立刻下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9738.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9752.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
好,如果他沒有下架了,我們就走裁罰跟再走後面,就是有一個階段性。但是如果說是像這次創意私房的非法網站,因為通知可能根本沒辦法通知,那我們就直接走。 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9753.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9753.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9784.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9798.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
謝謝法務部的說明我想這就回到當時我為什麼要放情節重大因為像這次創意書就所有的都是犯罪嫌疑但是這個是情節重大的犯罪嫌疑就是而且已經不是嫌疑看起來就是犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9799.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9799.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
陳昭芝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9815.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9815.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9845.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9870.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
第二個部分,就是一、三都是要適用,謝謝。有啊,三個都適用啊。那個即時,因為剛剛我本來要問說你要多久內來,因為前面都通知不到嘛,行政的部分都通知不到、找不到,你要等多久才做這三個動作。那這以三個條件去做這個封網。那我們這個封網就是要即時,可是現在即時這個字眼只出現在一、二、三的二。 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9876.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9878.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
第八條的母法就24小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9888.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9907.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我本來是剛開始是想不通但是就是說因為這個不是一個刑法上的犯罪嫌疑情節重大不是刑法上的問題這個是一個行政處分而這個行政處分它的指涉是內容它的指涉是內容本身所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9908.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9924.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
這個內容本身為什麼不需要特別強調因為我們要界定就是只要是有兒少性剝削影像他當然就是全部都是情節重大所以我們才講說不需要再去講到情節重大因為所謂的情節重大就涉及到認定的問題那我們就不要有認定這個問題直接就是只要這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9934.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9953.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
而少性剝削的影像,那麼它就是理所當然的犯罪嫌疑重大了。我開始一直走到這裡是因為這樣子啦。好,那我們就請那個衛福部是不是可以補充說,怎麼樣對你們在執行上面,不會有模糊的空間執行上市? |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9953.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9979.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
這一條我們在設計上除了第六項之外我們還有一個第七項第七項也就是把相關的部會包括技術上可能是數位發展部那還有是剛才講那個情節到底情節要不要放進去還是嫌疑重大就可以我們這邊放了法務部跟這個內政部警政署基本上我們要做這樣的一個行政動作的處分前 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9982.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9984.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10007.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10015.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
有去說明的有相關的文字也請委員參考那所以你們現在意見情節重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10021.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10043.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
其實重點是在得,不是因。得的話我們就有判斷的空間。判斷的空間我們可以判斷到底是涉嫌重大還是情節重大。我們可以有這種彈性。這不確定法律概念的話,大概要寫到很精確大概有困難。 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10043.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10058.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
對啦,某部分還是得要授權給主管機關他們有裁量的空間。我想不可能修法是具細密,那個母法寫不完。好,那如果是這樣子的話,所以衛福部你們最後意見,情節要維持原條文還是要變成重大?情節重大。好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10067.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10087.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
好 那既然剛剛法務部也有這樣的一個意見那我想我們修法的目的是要讓它可以落實我們也必須某種程度讓主管機關它有一個彈性空間也不能寫死了所以如果是這樣的話那我們是不是第八條之一我們就按照衛福部建議修正版本的文字通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10088.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10115.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
好不好,大家有沒有意見?沒有意見那我們就通過。好,謝謝。來我們接下來進行第...主席,針對這一條是不是可以唸,就是稍微唸一下好不好?它就原來修正版本,不用再唸了。哪一個?沒有改哪一個?對對對,那個...下面主管機關,對對對,剛剛議事院員提醒的齁。大家看一下那個秀出來的齁。就是原來的那個版本呢,最後這邊有調整。 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10120.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10139.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
都改成主管機關。是不是請議事人員宣讀一下。警政主管機關跟前面不一致。 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10145.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10174.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
為什麼一定要跟這樣做?也是很怪。那個涉及到前面第三條嗎?為什麼一定要跟這樣做?好,那那個待會第三條的時候還要再回去。剛剛醫事院也是有提醒說,都是內政以下的機關,就是有分戶政、警政跟移民。那那個就是待會再回去討論。但是在這邊,比較關鍵的是警政主管機關,其他的機關是沒有。 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10174.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10202.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
所以大家再看一下這一段有稍微調整的文字。原來的建議修正版本然後再修正的就是把這個數位發展主管機關、教育主管機關、通訊傳播主管機關、法務主管機關、警政主管機關、網際網路接取服務提供者因依法協助執行。那那個第六項的部分是不是也有做修正啊?沒有。 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10203.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10209.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
委員黃捷等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10226.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10230.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
網路業者經限制接取後更換網域名稱或其他方法已有第四章犯罪嫌疑情勢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10252.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10252.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
接下來我們進行是 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10281.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10311.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
第十五條請委員翻到第十五頁大本的第十五頁第十五條委員在第二項建議第二款建議並提供心理諮詢與輔導課程至少十八小時那很感謝委員提醒但是在實務上這個第十五條的第二項指的是我們的性這個性剝削的被害人社工在座 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10311.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10316.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10333.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10336.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
而這個服務內容就會涉及到我們現在委員要增加的心理諮詢輔導的這個內容,所以不需要特別去宰明,實務執行上更具有彈性。這以上說明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10355.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10355.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
議員主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10371.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10400.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
第二十八條我們建議委員參考新發的這個單章第二十八條的建議修正條文那在第一項的第第三十九條的第二項跟第四項之罪者增加第二項跟第四項修正之前原條文是第一項跟第三項因為我們在第三十九條會有做建議修正條文因此配合第三十九條的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10400.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10425.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我們這個著修援引的條次向次謝謝好那針對第28條請問各位有沒有意見針對衛福部新提出的建議修正條文沒有意見沒有意見那我們就按衛福部建議修正條文版本通過接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10428.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10443.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
第三十條,麻煩委員看到大本的第十六頁,六委員有提一個修正版本,也就是在第三十條,我們這些兒少性性剝削的被害人進到保護安置之後, |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10445.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10451.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10460.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10464.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10482.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10511.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10512.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10513.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
梁國雄議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10534.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10563.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我是比如說重要關係的喪失或被摧毀讓兒少真的難以真正的敞開心胸所以你後綴的服務和幫助就蠻重要那我是覺得一年顯然是太少因為你這個當然你有另外一個條件說獲滿20歲可是這兩個條件的關係是你有可能到時候說主管機關可能會因為人力、經費等等的考量就大部分就可能判為一年的一個基本的後綴可是你光這一年一個新的社工要跟被害人產生一個就是信任關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10564.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10564.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10587.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10595.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
謝謝主席。我想廖委員所提到把一年變成三年我是同意。 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10607.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10629.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我認為這樣的話對於整體的可以更完整不過廖委員所提到有關於地方主管機關要做相關的這些補助要由中央主管機關做補助的部分因為目前過去的地方政府如果沒有這方面的協助的發生或需要的時候那這邊是不是就不予以更動以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10632.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10632.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10643.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10668.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
好 謝謝那這部分我們是不是先保留因為主管機關跟委員的意見不一致你們在看是不是委員基本上是希望可以多一點時間你們實務上看要怎麼處理是想要協助這一些耳哨利益是良善的那我們第30條我們先保留好 來接下來第 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10673.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10687.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
第三十一條,這個部分有委員建議修正它的刑責跟罰金,涉及司法機關,我們是不是聽聽法務部跟司法院的意見。好來,我們先請司法院表示意見。三十一條。 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10698.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10710.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
市法院刑事廳報告這一條第一項跟第二項其實它情節有輕重之分第一項它悲憾年紀會比較小未滿16歲第二項是 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10713.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10718.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
議員林岱樺等十六歲以上未滿十八歲。議員林岱樺等十六歲以上未滿十八歲。議員林岱樺等十六歲以上未滿十八歲。 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10737.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10765.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那我們剛有提到第二項的情節應該是比第一項輕,如果我們把它提高到五年以上,反而輕的會變成處罰比較重,可能會有體系失衡的問題。以上報告。好,謝謝。來法務部有沒有說明?我們意見跟司法院一致,也是贊成維持現行的條文,因為之前已經做過橫平性的考量,那也請委員們參考。好,那請問委員有沒有意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10768.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10789.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
若違沒有意見,那我們就維持現行條文。來,第32條。好,第32條,我們也是麻煩委員看大版本。那一共有四位委員,有四個版本。那第一項也是提高刑度跟罰金。那第二項,意圖盈利的也是提高刑度,有五到十二年,有七年以上。 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10790.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10806.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
厲三個每一屆交付收受的這個部分也是委員的版本也是提高它的刑度有三年以上十年以下然後有另外一個版本是五年以上那都涉及刑度跟罰金我們仍然請司法院跟法務部表示意見好來那個法務部先表示意見好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10813.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10831.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
好,跟主席跟各位委員報告,有關這個提高刑度的部分本部是有就整體的跟其他的刑法相關所各個罪章要保護的法益跟相關罪行有做一個整體橫平性的考量所以包括從第32條到第38條的部分我們一起來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10836.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10836.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10855.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10860.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10879.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10880.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
現行事務上也有很多移送少年的案件。 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10898.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10910.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
如果說我們一律因為這次那個委員的要提高的刑度也林林總總很多哈那我們就把一個通盤的一個狀況好就就講如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10911.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10934.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我們把刑度提高到五年以上的話那這種案件將來會由少年法院依照少年事件處理法27條第一項的規定就會全部送到地檢署那這樣的話檢察官他就會要必須依刑事訴訟法的規定來偵查起訴雖然說依照少年事件處理法第83條規定是可以塗銷他的前科紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10935.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10954.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
那可是司法院還是不是要提供這個前科紀錄給教育部來落實預防狼屍的機制這個就大家要考量還是還是說這個部分將來我們要不要給我的意思是說要不要給這些青少年一個機會如果一律都是縱行然後送地檢署那 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10955.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10958.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10972.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10975.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
bicyC. |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10975.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10997.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
進入偵查階段,像這樣的狀況,司法院是不是還是要提供這個紀錄給教育部,這個部分可能也要一起思考。那如果說我們把刑度提高到三年以上、十年以下,那剛剛有提過,夾關就是依照刑事處罰規定,就是不能夠違緩起訴處分,只能提公訴。那如果行為人像是大學生、出入社會的青年,有時候對於一些情節狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10998.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11025.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
因為各種狀況很多我們很難一概而論那如果是他等於這樣的情節只是分享拍攝散佈一張幾張這樣的影像我們一律都要這樣處理提起公訴是不是符合罪責的相當性跟很平性我想這個我們都是一併的考量所以原則上我們是希望說32條到38條是不是就維持這樣的我們這個原來的行動因為之前都考慮過 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11026.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11040.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
但是也是衛福部的版本那三十九跟四十四條還有我們再增加的也許是四十四之一那個地方我們在在這個不影響整盤通盤考量的刑責行動之下我們可以加重以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11041.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11042.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
法務部編譯 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11061.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11064.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11088.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11095.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
現在少年法庭收到這些案件這些通通都是少性剝削防制條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11096.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11113.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11125.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11145.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
還有下架還有將來的技術可行比如說未來的比如說速發部能夠協助檢警協助第一線的警察機關能夠去阻絕而且這個其實網路是大家共同使用的就好像我剛跟同仁在反映就是說我們討論現在我們其實不能用封網這是化療手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11145.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11169.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
全部部分青紅皂白全部都把它封下去但是要發展標靶式要把這個併造比如說行為人對被害人的傷害怎麼樣及時能夠去處理才是一個重點也就是行政部門立即有效的這樣一個國家的一個行動的團隊能夠解決這個問題但是重刑其實我要這個就是謝謝剛剛法務部參事提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11170.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11192.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
目前正在發生中的我們剛修的現行法現在已經在製造一些問題了那這些高職的學生他的父母都是把孩子送進私立的高中可是這些孩子其實他其實並沒有要剝削對方但是通通都中標通通都進入我們的刑法體系那這時候我們怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11194.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11220.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
在少子高齡化的社會所以我會奉勸大家就是我們會強烈的希望能夠維持目前的布板那怎麼樣的去強調剛剛其實昭偉有提到教育端如果我們的性教育我們的這樣的性別教育我們都還沒有做到就是夠好的情況通通都有重刑我覺得我們製造的問題可能會比我們這個立法的建樹可能要來的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11221.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11224.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11237.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11265.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這樣的一個產業鏈這個是而且要透過國際之間的這樣一個就是相互的去防制否則其實這一題我們會失去很多我們其實可以發展的部分總之司法院立場就是我們要往前面往前做行政先行的部分讓它要能夠有效到位但是後面的刑罰其實我們還是要希望能夠回到罪行相當還有去追究應該要負責任的這些產業或者這些大人 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11265.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11279.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
而少了這樣的性剝削。這個簡單的補充以上,謝謝。好,謝謝法務部跟司法院的補充說明。請問委員針對這個部分有沒有表達意見的?好,來,蔡委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11284.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11302.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
主席因為我們剛剛司法院跟法務部都是針對32條以下的條文那我想因為32條本質上跟接下來的影像的部分會有很大的不同所以我是建議說是不是先把32條處理掉再來進一步的處理影像的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11303.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11325.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
因為三十二條他涉及到這個什麼引誘流龍引誘流龍招募的這個然後我還有一個具體的一個要請教這個衛福部的就是說因為這個三十二條的本身他是沒藉兒童去為這個性交或猥褻行為那如果他對接 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11327.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11355.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
對接這個《兒少權益保障法》也就是這個《兒少性剝削法》的母法的時候它應該會對接到第49條的行為太陽也就是第49條的第九項強迫引誘流氓或媒介兒少為猥褻或性交行為那如果是49條的對接的話它就會又進入到第97條也就是違反第49條第一項各款規定之一者 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11356.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11377.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
處新台幣六萬元以上、六十萬元以下罰款並得公佈姓名或名稱。我要重點就是說並得公佈姓名或名稱也就是說對於這個加害者的本身衛福部是可以公佈姓名或名稱讓社會大眾或者是社區查詢的時候知道說我的社區內可能有 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11380.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11409.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
會對兒少為性剝削又是三十二條這樣行為會性剝削的人的姓名這個是要供社會大眾查詢的那目前我們所了解的要去查詢這樣的資訊是有困難的那我想要請教一下如果以這個相關的條文這樣把它看起來為什麼現在還沒有落實到公佈姓名這個加害者的姓名這件事情這個是我現在比較在意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11412.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11441.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
好,這個從三十二條、三十三條、三十四條、三十五條,這個都是針對招募、引誘、擁有、媒介,其實都是相關的那個法則嘛。好,到三十六條才是重置,所以我們是不是就一併從三二到三五,如果委員對於你這個修法有些什麼意見,我們就一併表達,然後一併處理,好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11442.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11442.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
議員主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11458.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11474.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那個剛剛法務部跟司法院是覺得維持現行條文,那委員都有提出要加重的版本,那是不是請委員表示意見,好來蔡委員。就是說因為剛剛法務部跟司法院的意見,它是已經整定到了38條的太陽,所以它在 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11475.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11479.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11502.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11520.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
他們剛剛的意思都是維持現行條文,他們剛剛的意思是一直到三八都維持現行條文。所以現在是請委員表示意見,就是如果不認同法務部跟司法院的看法,有提版本的委員認為要加重的,就是可以再補充說明好不好。有沒有委員要表示意見?沒有齁? |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11531.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11552.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
他們就說要維持現行條文剛剛有講他們剛有特別提到一個是去年的修法一個是剛有提到說現在有一些是未成年人高中生可能也會涉及到處罰特別是司法院剛聽到提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11553.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11571.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
加重一併處理,可能對高中生、前端教育可能還沒有好,讓他已經處罰了,可能會影響到這一些未成年人。這個是他們希望委員在提加重處罰的時候去一併考量的。好,那是不是劉慧玲要表示意見呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11580.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11607.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
我們當然不會說因為去修法加重就可以達到怎樣的一定程度的嚇阻效果我們也知道在去年已經大幅的修正這個法律了但是實際上在現在又發生做了這麼多案子禮拜的時候我特別跟部長提供了相關的一些訊息我們在網路上隨便摳機出來就是很多如果依照現在這樣的一個法條去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11608.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11622.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
好像只要有錢去和解,然後他似乎啦,我要表達說他似乎用原有沒修正過後的再去修正過後的法條,似乎沒有任何的阻絕的效果嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11623.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11645.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
所以今天才會導致很多委員希望把他再加重提醒,這個提醒再提高嘛。那如果說你們覺得說這樣的提高對實際上去年度的這樣的修法基本上是怎麼講,就是那個效益不大。那你們是不是,哪一個單位可以跟我們解釋一下說,你們有其他的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11647.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11659.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
的這樣的依據,不會讓這樣的事情再發生。我要表達這意思,大家應該聽得懂吧?誰可以來做答覆?禮拜五的時候,部長、司長都在嘛,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11664.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11683.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
請部長講一下在請司法院跟法務部表示意見之前我想我們再回頭這幾次有關於兒少性剝削條例的專案報告裡面我個人的看法是覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11685.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11712.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
委員之所以在除了現影像,這等一下我們可以來做討論除了現影像之外的這些也就是說從32條到35條這樣子的一些違法的態樣犯罪的行為的態樣之所以想要再增加他的刑度原因大概就有兩個第一個就是說檢察官是否還起訴用的太多了一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11714.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11741.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
adequare就是法官判刑那用這個應該是59條的一個減輕期刑用的太過頻繁因為這事實上是有一些數據出來了所以我想就是說司法院跟法務部為了今天審查能夠節省時間應該就針對這兩點看未來有什麼樣的一些做法可以來就是說盡量不要讓社會有這樣子的異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11745.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11773.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
好,謝謝部長。那那個廖偉祥委員要發言,來請。對,謝謝部長的回答。那有關於刑度的問題,我想後面好幾條也都是類似的概念。所以像我自己提的是39、44跟41。那衛福部部板也都是建議維持原案。那我想概念也是一樣,我還是想要表達我的意見。就是說基本上這是有關刑度的部分。所以法務部、司法院都有很多意見,但是對比美國,我國法制的刑度就是遠低於美國嘛,對不對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11774.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11796.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
所以立委我覺得立委現在提出這麼多提高刑度修法的版本其實憑良心講也算是一個頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳就是發現嚇阻效果不夠那會有這整個現象就是整體的刑度太低低到讓犯罪者都覺得再次犯罪的成本很低所以也沒有在怕的我想這也都是剛剛部長也表達的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11797.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11819.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
所以我想也是為了節省時間我們也是對於我們立法院的態度或是這些立法委員為什麼要提高刑度就是希望真正達到嚇阻的效果所以這部分也希望說我們法務部和司法院是不是有一個整體未來可以給我們民意和給我們立法院一個交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11821.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11838.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
好 謝謝 那我們是不是請這個法務部跟司法院可以針對剛剛委員提到就是說到底如果不是加重刑責那你們在實務執行上面比如說第一個緩刑那這一次大家會這麼憤怒是覺得說這這麼嚴重了還緩刑會不會這個比這個到底是怎麼裁量的然後就是很快就可以服刑二分之一然後就出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11850.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11857.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
到底在執行上法務部跟司法院可以怎麼樣落實就是符合民意啊就大家覺得說這一類不應該輕重輕放喔就是說就原來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11862.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11862.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11884.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11899.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我想三十二條到三十五條的一個太樣這個主要是利用兒少為性交或違憲的行為這個是比較嚴重的所以這個如果我們是用緩刑的標準的話那很多委員的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11899.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11916.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11916.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11946.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11946.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11961.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
每一條每一條是不是還是要細部去討論,因為剛剛法務部跟司法院就是一個很籠統概括說,噢這樣就沒辦法進入少年事件處理法,或者是就沒有緩刑的要件,他是不是把這樣等於是把所有條文喊罵吼自己該講,這樣我們就失去了討論的一個意義好不好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11965.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11966.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
法務部及司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11981.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12008.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
有關這個刑度要不要提高這個部分呢我們也按照這個刑度罪責相當相稱性、比例性所有的相關的原則來考量那我們認為因為上一次已經112年修法的時候其實這個部分該怎麼樣做刑度的調整衛福部、司法院還有本部都已經做整體有一個通盤的考量所以已經訂了這樣的一個刑度 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12010.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12029.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
則主要是因為也考量我們刑法其他的罪章包括防害秘密罪、防害性隱私及不實影像罪各個罪章的保護法益跟相關罪行已經做過有一次的通盤的整體平衡平行考量那這一次而且那一次的也是有跨部會、跨院部會的研商的共識那這一次有 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12030.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12039.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12045.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12047.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12062.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12084.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
如果全部一併都整個提高我們會認為有以下幾個狀況就是就非意圖盈利的一般刑犯罪來看我剛有提到就是說現在手機電腦還有一些科技設備普及的實際的現行社會狀況兒童少年一手人手一機然後來處理拍攝製造新影像而且透過通訊軟體來散佈這個都不難 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12087.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12099.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那實務上剛剛謝廷長也有提到現在有已經發生實際上案件就是移送少年的案件已經以現在的這個法定行路來看已經是情節看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12101.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12105.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12118.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12140.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那這個案件會由少年法院就是剛說到只有少年事件處理法27條第1項來規定就一律移送地檢署那檢察官就必須依刑事送法規定來偵查起訴那這還涉及到這個他的前科資料我們現在是好像有保護保護那但是未來如果一旦進入刑事偵查這樣的一個記錄那 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12142.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12146.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12166.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12193.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
刑度提高到三年以上十年以下檢察官依刑事訴訟法規定就不能還起訴處分只能提供訴剛剛也提到如果是大學生出入社會的青年他有些行為情節假設是只有拍攝或者是散步分享一張幾張這樣的影像我們一律因為都已經符合構成要件我們是不是就一律要提供訴這樣有沒有符合罪責相當性跟衡平性那剛剛有說到我們這次有狀況是因為怎麼會給他還起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12195.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12209.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
怎麼會給他緩刑那我跟委員報告就是因為過去持有這個東西是行政是只有行政法他是沒有刑責那我們是去年修了以後才把它變成一年以下有期徒刑的刑刑罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12210.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12237.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那檢察老師說我們司法人員就是包括法官、檢察官我們在處理案件的時候我們當然很多情節不一而足那很多狀況我們必須個案來判斷那我們在判斷的時候基本上刑法五十七條是我們列為重要參考那包括他犯罪的目的、動機、手段還有犯後態度這個都是要考量那在處理這些過程中我們還有一個很重要的就是參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12238.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12243.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12258.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12276.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
有點輕重但是以當時以現行的法制來看一年以下的有期徒刑他可能事後又給他又又呈現很多悔改的狀況甚至也是120萬的呃罰金其實這呃不不還起訴處分金其實這在我們一般案件上來評斷已經是高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12278.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12288.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
就當時就是處理個案的檢察官來他就以前參考的資訊那因為我沒有在我不是個案懲辦的檢察官我們不曉得他在偵辦的過程中他還有一些什麼其他的考量或被告展現出的什麼樣的誠意或善意我們我不能論斷但是我們尊重檢察官在個案的判斷的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12299.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12323.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
還有他這個他就個案情節的這個處理那所以他是依法的他這個是合法的那所以我們那當然因為過去這樣的案件真的是很少所以我們可能就是都是一個在一個階段啦在一個過程的一個階段所以我相信經過這一次我們社會各界的重視還有輿論大家還有教育這個各個方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12324.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12345.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我相信大家對這個兒少保護的這個意識會增強大家會更重視知道說啊你用金流用錢去做這個事情因為以前沒有同理心嗎覺得這個人我不認識我看了好像就只有我看他不曉得那個受害人是這樣一再的傳播對他的傷害有多大所以大家可能過去可能也許真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12346.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12370.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
議事沒有被激發起來那我相信這次的討論一定會讓大家更有更了解那這個相信都是在一個階段一個過程中我相信這個部分以後我們再處理緩起訴那緩刑的部分待會可以司法院來跟各位報告我相信在緩起訴這個要不要處理這一塊我們相信不管是檢察官或者是警察或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12370.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12371.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12391.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12413.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
好 謝謝法務部的說明 來接下來我們請司法院謝庭長是 謝謝趙薇還有各位委員還有剛剛法務部參事的一個說明那這個參事說過的部分我再就不重複了那因為對於立法論如何入罪入刑包含刑法的良定當然這個是各位委員提出的這樣的一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12414.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12416.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12431.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12447.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
而在去年我們修正的《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》已經其有提高了部分的一個刑度,那剛剛參詞提到的。那我剛剛其有分享到目前中部地區就有高職學生,這個大男生在洗澡的時候,大家就互拍隱私部位。 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12448.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12473.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
然而沒有經過對方同意之下就傳。現在的這些案子都已經在法院審理當中。按照去年修正的這個《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》,這些大男生他們其實都不是要去剝削對方,但是都已經符合構成要件,通通都必須要被移送到檢察官。所以我們會發現,剛我有提出一個觀察,就是這一次的這個版本, |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12474.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12498.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
我們應該要加重的是前端的一個譬如封網跟下架還有怎麼樣的能夠去在這個封網之下他能夠去辨別這樣的一個就是行為人跟被害人的這個保護那這個部分可能必須要有很多的跨部會的一個協力發展出我們的一個執行的這個方法跟有效不至於說影響到其他參與這樣的一個網路活動的其他的正常的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12502.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12512.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12527.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12536.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12556.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12574.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那CRC的前一次的國家報告,我們也納入我們整個的一個兒少這樣的一個就是保護。那這個會跟CEDAW公約、CRPD公約在司法人員的意識的提升上,我們都還有努力的空間。但是對於良心的部分,他還是必須要個案去判斷。 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12574.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12586.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那這個委員有提到就是比如說之前的統計數字我要提出來的觀察是去年修法通過的這樣一個比較重刑的部分並沒有反映在整個統計數字上因為以前其實是舊的這個法律統計數字上我們看得出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12591.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12596.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
再來第三點是,行事廳等下朱法官說不定可以補充,行事廳也準備了一個草案,妥適良刑法草案。如何良刑其實是一個必須兼具理論跟實務的,每個個案怎麼樣的去協助他們,從他們的一個犯罪行為,能夠從中得到學習,甚至於得到治療,如果有一些是需要治療的,但是通常都是認知,是教育的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12618.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12638.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
所以如果能夠針對他們的一個行為其實是錯誤的可是這些錯誤的認知其實也都是整個社會造成的怎麼樣去從社會教育端、學校教育端那能夠協助他們透過整個司法介入的過程比如說剛剛提到緩刑如果今天我是一個法官我在考量他要入監服刑或者是他要去緩刑期間給他一個付款 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12640.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12659.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
閱讀院查看,讓要求他要去接受哪些的教育,那要不的話違反之後其實可以撤銷緩刑。那這樣子帶給行為人他一個調整自我能夠重新參與社會,而不至於讓他跟社會隔離,是不是也是一種刑罰的效果。那我會在這邊提出來的是, |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12660.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12662.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
該案的統計,每個個案都有一些個別性的因素。 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12676.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12698.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
那這個部分當然是一個良心的一個刑罰的一個使用那未來如果怎麼樣的妥適良心也是司法院的一個政策跟目標我們希望能夠早日完成妥適良心法草案讓這個就是這個每個個案的良心都可以有一個基準可以遵循那以上補充也謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝謝庭長那朱法官有要補充嗎刑事庭來 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12703.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12731.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
行事庭我們尖端補充法官有關剛剛我們部長有提到有關量刑或緩刑或者是說是不是適用刑法59條減刑的這個議題當然法官對於自己的裁判是要接受社會公平我們也虛心接受我是來自於基層的我也從事很多年的刑事審判事務 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12731.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12759.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
那我也簡單講一下法官就這個相關的議題的一些思考我們先從59條的那個先科民宿要進行這個規定是規定在刑法總則它是所有犯罪都有適用那是為了等於是一種輕輕法重的調節不只是在兒少性剝削而已任何案件都有適用那它是考量事務上的案件類型非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12760.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12775.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那有一些案件如果確實法官在審酌其他的要件不是很寬他第一個必須是依照一般的客觀客觀情形認為他是嫌可民宿是嫌可民宿是值得同情的那第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12776.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12798.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
法定刑 立法院所通過的法律的法定刑即使我們把它減了就算適用最低度的刑度仍然過重那我們一般的考量就是會考量包括說他這個被告他本身的情況比如說他是不是之前有沒有前科 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12799.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12815.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
那是不是這個是出於年輕事前一時好奇那他事後的犯惡態度有沒有認罪有沒有積極去悔改那嘗試跟被害人和解並培養損害等等這一些因為實務的案件類型真的太多了不能排除會有這種狀況那如果真的有狀況才會用到這一條來佐檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12819.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12837.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那如果說這個佐檢不當當然接受社會公平那現在的機制就是可以提上訴警察官可以不服可以上訴啊那就依照現有的審計機制去做一個救濟那相對的緩刑的話緩刑其實跟法定刑比較沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12839.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12853.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
法定行其實即使第第三年,如果我們用新法五十九條佐檢,讓他的宣告形式在兩年以內,那當然要符合其他的要件,他五年內沒有故意再犯罪。那審酌以後暫時觀察,不要讓他馬上進去執行,為適當的話,我們請向給他一個機會。那有相關的一些處遇,如果有違反什麼樣的條件, |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12863.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12878.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
當然還是要撤銷緩刑繼續執行那以上這個其實都是接受大家的指教那我只是在強調這個其實都是我們所尊重憲法審判的核心那司法院就司法行政當然有一個監督的職責 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12880.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12896.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
但是我們可以做的就是像剛剛我們謝庭長有提到我們會透過除了說這個相關的法制面以外我們法官學院都會開設課程請一些專家來有關一些相關的一些包括被害人的保障、創傷認知這些部分讓法官有更具備這樣的意識甚至我們會開諮詢會議把相關的一些良心我們可能會編制一些手冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12909.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12909.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12918.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12944.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
如果說我們要把法定刑貿然提高可能最後最重要要補充一點我們法定刑原來是一年以上、七年以下法官本來在這個裁量刑度就可以判三年、四年、五年嘛一上七下最終可以判到七年怎麼判依照個案的情節不要違反罪行相當原則那我們如果硬要把它提高成三上十下 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12944.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12969.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
第一個,它的嚇阻的效果到底在哪裡?這個可能就要去研究。再來的話,它會連動到程序面。如果把它提高到三上十下,在實施送法,它會變成一個重罪類型。那它變成即使被告認罪,一定要有三位法官依照通常程序審理。那它是強制辯護案件。如果被告沒有自己選任律師, |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12969.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12973.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12996.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13007.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
又把它提高成它是強制評估案件,那一律都要三個法官依照比較慎重的程序去審理的話,這個實務上有沒有辦法符合也請委員參考。那以上補充。 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13008.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13038.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
好 謝謝法務部跟司法院的補充說明那我來處理一下那個程序因為我之前有宣告過我們審理的原則就是逐條但是如果沒有辦法達成共識我們都是一律先保留那因為以下都涉及到這個刑度的問題那剛剛我是建議就是如果這個沒有共識的我們第一輪都先保留在刑度的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13038.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13054.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
那這個剛剛有特別提到持有的部分是過去沒有討論的就是說這邊有版本的我們就先討論好不好其他的我看起來這個法務部司法院跟委員的版本之間這個大家共識其實是有落差的齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13055.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13079.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
那剛剛其實法務部跟司法院也有做一些比較清楚的說明所以沒有公示的部分我建議就先保留好不好我們爭取這個審理的實效那我們就以下針對衛福部有提出版本的要再次修法的我們就先討論那其他的部分呢因為都涉及到刑度我們就保留下午的時候呢再回過頭來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13082.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13086.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
三十六條,我們建議參考大的版本,第二十一頁。我們這一次修法在第一項、第二項跟第三以及第七項爭略了重置這個樣態。 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13102.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13119.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那同時在這個第一項裡面定名這個罰金的下限。那補充修正第二項跟第三項,如果罰金下限比照第一項要增訂的話,我們也建議可以把罰金的下限補充。以上。好。那針對三十六條的部分,就交各位委員有沒有意見。好,來陳昭志委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13133.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13136.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
謝謝主席,我們有提修正動議案在第七案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13142.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13164.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
有將與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥是圖案、語音或其他物品。本黨建議修正定義為與性相關而客觀上足以引起刺激或滿足性慾且無藝術性、醫學性或教育性價值。 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13165.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13176.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
而另一半人感覺不堪呈現於眾或不能忍受而排除之圖畫、語音或其他物品除了就是排除這個所謂藝術性、醫學性跟教育性之外那就是說是不是把這一類的這個物品以下稱這個性圖畫影音物品那當然其他的相關如果大家同意的話其他部分的相關條也配合一起修正那我們這邊寫這個的理由就是想要避免誤傷這個所謂的二次元的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13194.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13202.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13214.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13235.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我們有提出的修法建議是參照刑法加重結果犯罪的立法例對於犯本條前三項之罪的行為人如果有營利的意圖或行為時因為犯罪的侵害犯罪人程度更寬更廣我們覺得這個部分是不是還是可以考慮可以考慮就是意圖營利還是可以考慮加重處罰以上 謝謝好 針對三十六條請問還有沒有委員有不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13246.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13247.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
好,來,范委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13271.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13273.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13291.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13291.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
議員主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13313.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13339.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
省博洋跟我的有一個版本是在39條那他是有在處理這個圖畫的定義那圖畫的定義就是避免像剛剛陳昭之委員所講到說在圖畫上會把所謂的二次元虛擬人物納入所以我們是希望可以不動條文的本身然後在立法理由把它宰明清楚那也就是衛福部現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13340.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13340.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
議員黃捷等 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13363.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13388.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
陳昌智委員,來,請。我再補充一下,因為剛剛我說的這個修正的要排除是因為原來在第二條,那個地方如果修正我們今天就可以順著來,但是因為這個我們現在已經進入36條,所以我說明一下,我們在第二條要修正那個包括這個要排除無藝術性、醫學性或教育性等等,是這樣子來,在第二條的部分,就提到了這個部分,謝謝。好,謝謝。還有沒有委員要表示意見?好,來,黃捷委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13395.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13416.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
好,當然要先感謝那個衛福部有把我就是提那個重置放在36條。那除了說這個樣態有放進去很重要之外,我想要再請教一下我們這個刑度的調整,你們的依據是什麼?那就是這樣的刑度你們覺得是適當的嗎?可不可以再說明一下?因為你們還是有明定這個罰金的下限嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13424.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13425.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
好,謝謝。來,我思耀委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13428.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13454.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
謝謝主席。我有提出三十六條的一個修正動議,就是增加第四項。現行一、二、三項在處置的是拍攝、製造、重製這些兒少的性影像等等。那我增加的第四項是這樣的。意圖盈利或支付對價犯前三項之罪者,依各條文之規定,加重其刑責之二分之一。 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13454.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13475.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
而在週一的質詢時,我提到,因為現行的條文對於無償的下載是一種規範,但是現在沒有把支付對價,你去花錢購買,也就是創意私房這些的高級會員們,他本身的罪責跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13476.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13479.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13501.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13520.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13520.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13520.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
好,我們請黃國昌委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13550.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13566.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
謝謝主席我們針對36條所提出的修正動議大概分兩個部分來予以說明第一個部分針對第一項、第二項、第三項的部分重新調整它的法定最高刑以及最低刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13567.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13589.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
那13個不同行為的太陽依照他嚴重的程度然後逐漸的往上提高他的法定最低刑那最重要的事情是第四項的修正第四項就修正在我們因意圖營利這個在刑法的定義上是一個意圖犯我相信法務部代表跟司法院的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13590.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13611.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
對這樣法文設計應該都很熟悉但現在我們在司法實務上面所產生最大的問題是什麼在兩次的質詢當中我其實清楚的點出來了所謂的加重期刑是二分之一這樣子的一個立法的技術在我國法院長久累積起來他們的解釋是 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13612.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13624.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
他們加重期刑至二分之一是最高刑度可以往上加二分之一最低刑度有加就好所謂有加就好呢大概就是從一個月開始那這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13626.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13649.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
加重情形的規定反映到我們的司法實務上三年以上有期徒刑我可以判三年一個月以上有期徒刑這種意圖盈利的犯罪形態竟然是以兒少的性影像來販賣牟利或者是以兒少的性影像來進行強暴脅迫的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13652.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13672.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
法定最低刑如果我們維持現在法條的設計只是從加重期刑至二分之一我們可以非常合理的判斷接下來的司法實務一樣從最低刑加一個月就好了這個是我國目前在立法技術上反映到司法實務上面的重大問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13673.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13695.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
也因此這個樣子針對我們實務上面那樣的解釋雖然有學者提出批評包括台大法律系的教授許恆達在參加司法院相關的座談的時候也點出了他的看法因為如果刑法現在總則的規定是加重期刑最低最高其實都要同加同減嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13696.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13722.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
但我們在司法實務的實踐上顯然不是這個樣子因此在立法的技術上我們在第四項針對意圖營利犯前三項之最一下列各項規定處罰分別依照第一項的罪、第二項的罪、第三項的罪然後再把他最低的法定刑再往上加因為我們法院實務上面的判決法官在量刑的時候都是從最低刑度開始的以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13725.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13730.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
好 謝謝 請問各位人針對第36條還有沒有要表達意見 來范委員事實因為我跟吳斯堯委員一樣我都有增加那個支付觀看這個部分但是我們放的位置不一樣吳斯堯委員是放在36條我是放在38條那我還有另外一個就是說泄露 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13749.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13775.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
就是當事人、被害人各自的部分也要那個加重刑期到二分之一因為就是說你有個性向然後再加上兒少性向他又是誰的話傷害更大這是原來沒有的項目所以我是建議主席是不是能夠把三六、三八跟那個三九一起討論因為它都蠻相關的只是我們放不一樣因為三十六條是拍攝製照那我們剛剛重製又放在這然後三十八條是散佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13776.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13795.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
然後三十九條是持有因為每個人放的不一樣那當然還有那個圖畫的定義的問題昨天是保留嗎在第二項那是不是可以把三六、三八、三九一起討論交換意見然後最後我們做一個決定的時候再來去處理各條文的文字這是一個建議啦好謝謝那還有沒有其他委員有不同的意見好來五位員 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13805.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13830.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
謝謝主席剛剛范雲委員說的其實我很認同因為我自己原始的條文是放在第39因為39的一大部分是在處理無正當理由持有然後我們可以第二階段進入說它是對價支付關懶的所以如果是要把它挪到39條我也非常支持只希望在支付關懶的這個部分對價支付關懶部分要放進來謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13833.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13859.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
那還有沒有其他意見?那我們就三六、三八、三九就一併討論。那針對三六、三八、三九還有沒有要補充說明的?好,如果沒有的話,那麼請衛福部就針對三六、三八、三九就一併說明,好不好?好,謝謝委員。那也感謝吳委員剛才也確定就把那個支付對價,原先是要放在第三十六條,那同意可以放到三十九條,我們一併處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13861.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13885.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那剛才這個范委員特別問到說重置到底要放在三十六條比較適合還是三十八條比較適合那我們在跟網絡跟部會討論的時候有特別提到他比較像是跟製造的性質比較接近所以我們比較建議是放在三十六條那我就先回應到這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13889.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13902.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
好,那其他部會有沒有針對委員提出來?剛剛黃國昌委員說加重期刑二分之一,那個他們的版本法務部跟司法院有沒有表達意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13913.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13936.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
主席、各位委員好。黃委員的版本是在意圖營利的部分。意圖營利在第36條第4項本來就有加重期刑,但是委員是把它更細分,分別就各項如何加重,然後做比較明確的規範。原則上我們尊重就看其他大院的決議是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13941.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13941.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
主管機關補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13954.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13954.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
持有的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13984.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13985.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
黃建豪委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14001.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14030.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14031.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14035.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
好,謝謝黃委員。那還有沒有委員要針對36383表達意見?來,范委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14039.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14040.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
衛福部 重置還是無故重置? |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14069.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14097.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
那重置就是下載所以這其實是比較重的所以要放重置還是無故重置就是說衛福部可不可以回應一下這個問題好來下載是不是重置下載就是重置我們在認定上下載是重置那如果是這樣子的話的確要再重演一點要不然有的人會無辜特別是剛剛提到很多未成年人一點一點就重置了是不是要加上無故重置 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14100.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14128.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
重置刑法的定義已經是下載就是重置?對啊,點一下就是下載了有關於這一個無故重置跟重置的一個區別如果我們念的是無故重置的話它的意思就是說你還是有重置、有下載這個動作但是你要去舉證說我是有正當理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14133.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14151.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
因為去處理的部分的話,我想這包括我們的檢檢單位的話,他是看到有這個重置行為的話,其實他就已經符合構成要件。是否屬於無辜? |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14153.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14174.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
這個部分的話,會變成這個嫌疑人要去說明說他是有特定目的來這個重置的。比方說他要教學、他要各種狀況,變成要去證明這個事情,差別是在這個地方。 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14174.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14191.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
所以如果寫無故重置不是不可能,但是就是說那個所謂的那個有特殊理由的、有正當理由的重置的話,變成可能就是要被告來做舉證。 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14195.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14221.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
這個部分先保留我覺得還是有需要討論的空間因為比如說透過LINE傳輸很多孩子之間他們就是直接就這樣一按分享然後就出去了那他不想接到的已經到了他的手機這個算不算重置你知道嗎就是他把他按分享出去因為他是好友嘛但他根本沒有他沒有要蓄意去重置但他已經接收到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14222.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14242.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
這算不算?我覺得這個的確要小心一點,要不然很多孩子們之間的這個,它是被動的接收訊息,結果變成是重置,就是只要一接收到就變成重置,這個的確要實務上要很審慎的考量,要不然可能一竿子高中生可能全部都一年以上, |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14246.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14271.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
對 這個就是亂一個群組的這一種我覺得亂有一種就是因為他不是發送者但他是好友他就會他手機上的確就有了那那個怎麼辦圖片就進來了不是他要不要點閱的問題就已經有了所以這一個可能細緻度上面我覺得還要再考量所以我們先36、38、39我們都先保留好不好好來黃捷 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14276.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14280.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
司法院及法務部可否再針對故意犯或過失犯? |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14295.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14297.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
bicyC. |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14297.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14303.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
我幫忙說明一下我們去年刑法319之三條性私密影像針對成人的部分我們的文字是未經他人同意逗號無故重置頓號散布所以我們當時用的是無故重置然後這個等等罰是五年以下得病科五十萬元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14325.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14352.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
所以是不是跟我們的刑法針對成人的一樣又無故重置比較一致啊?嗯。好。好。那那個時間的關係齁。我想上午大家已經討論非常久。讓大家休息一下。我們中午休息一個小時齁。那下午我們會繼續處理。然後有共識的部分我們就通過齁。然後沒有共識的部分我們就保留。我們會送出委員會。就在召開協商。對對對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14355.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14356.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
好,我們現在休息一點半繼續開會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14391.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14391.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
18108.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
18133.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
好 我們繼續開會那上午我們36、38、39都是保留然後我們繼續往下我們保留完之後我們最後再一輪回來那最後一輪回來的時候呢就是有共識的條文我們就通過沒有共識的條文我們就保留然後送出委員會然後我會另外再召集協商這個就是我們下午的處理原則來接下來第40條 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
18141.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
18141.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
第四十條的部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
18170.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
18198.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
我們建議是不以增訂、不以修正目前這個部分涉及法行為人那是增加這個除了增加誘拐這個行為樣態還有對於非對價性交貨猥褻行為之餘的訊息那這部分會涉及到司法是不是也請司法院跟這個法部來表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
18202.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
18205.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
法務部和司法院的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
18230.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
18236.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
18254.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
18261.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
18277.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
18294.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
18294.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
18297.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
18322.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
18325.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
18349.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
18349.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
18363.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
18364.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
委員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
18379.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
18380.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
司法院有要補充說明嗎?四十條 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
18410.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
18434.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
我說明一下就是說謝謝那個范委員這個部分的一個就是提案我想方向應該大概都是跟少年性剝削的這個主要的立法目的是一樣的但是我們還是必須要說在立法論的部分來說如果說我們在入罪的這樣的一個刑法的樣態上導致就是在含涉的過程它其實是有一個重複的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
18435.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
18451.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林� |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
18459.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
18459.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
bicyclist 指責議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
18478.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
18498.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
我記得之前梁小午猜法務部也曾經做過除罪化的法治研究世界各國對於未滿16歲而且這個族群其實他更常發現在我們的一個從有性的意識的萌芽跟整個成長過程的性探索 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
18499.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
18512.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
這些都會因為他的一個網路時代他其實你很難去界定說那這不是屬於他的一個性的一個發展跟性的認識、性的認同這中間你如何去評價這個行為那我覺得太危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
18513.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
18516.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
18535.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
18562.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
那大人世界應該要避免兒少去剝削,尤其是一些有對價的這個行為。那我覺得這次的一個修法應該是要掌握這樣的一個立法的防針,那不要製造其他更多的問題。但是我相信這些委員都是基於希望讓這個防制網絡能夠更健全。那這個大概是以上補充剛剛法務部參事的一個意見,謝謝。好,謝謝。來,剛剛林淑芬委員要發言,請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
18564.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
18582.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
抱歉,我還是在講一個例子,這個在我諮詢的時候,你們都說審法條的時候再來慢慢詢問和處理,就是說有時候你加重了以後反而讓法官不敢判刑,比如說本刑三年以上、本刑七年以上這樣子,他反而 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
18583.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
18602.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
不敢判。然後我再講一個例子就是說這是一種這個例子吧。第二種例子就是說有一個警察因為通知這個少女說你有性剝削影像然後不是是那個少女自己知道他有被拍攝性剝削影像然後去報案 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
18604.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
18622.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
結果那個業務就是職務利用職務之便的這個警察就跟少女說你是什麼影片你做什麼姿勢你拍攝什麼內容你重拍一次給我看這當然是三十六條的一二三第三項可是我不知道為什麼判刑定業了你們知道這個個案嗎結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
18625.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
18640.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
對怎麼判一年多呢?而且起訴的條文沒有使用到第三十六條裡面的第三項。沒有耶!這個到底是怎麼一回事?我們真的是百思不得其解。雖然三十六條已經過了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
18642.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
18667.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
但是就是說實務面為什麼會發生這個問題我想我們需要檢審或是監禁審這幾個方面來跟我們講清楚一下第一個就是說為什麼明明本行都是七年以上的脅迫或者是三年以上的結果判起來都是一年多而且都是出犯齊情革命但是拍了要自己觀賞的可是他到底是不是純粹自己觀賞的 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
18668.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
18688.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
他並沒有辦法去證明說他沒有上傳或是賣給這個性犯罪網站並沒有去求證這個過程直接就說他只是認證就直接認證他是自行關上的然後就輕放了第一個第二個那剛才我講利用職務之便的這個警察 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
18689.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
18713.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
他又騙,然後叫他再做那個動作,再自己拍一次,然後再傳給他以外,那個警察不是只有犯了這個三十六條第三項的罪,判一年多而已,他還賣給,他還賣給這個創意司法這種網站。所以理論上他已經犯了七年以上的徒刑、現行的條文喔,而且還要再加重二分之一喔,因為他也賣給盈利型的網站喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
18715.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
18731.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
為什麼他最後是判一年多,就是說我們兩個禮拜前的質詢,然後這個社會新聞報導的,這個案件我不曉得,我覺得在這裡應該要給立委做一個說明啦。好,林淑媛委員講這個案件這個有上報,來羅廷惠委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
18734.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
18751.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
好好謝謝這個委員剛好提到這個案件其實我也蠻關注這個案件我就非常不解那這一次我們發現創意四方但是又發現這個結構裡面說後續的調查裡面有八十幾個高級會員身份片及醫生老師工程師軍警可是其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
18752.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
18772.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
我覺得就是為什麼會在這一次的警察事件我們就發現到說有這樣子的利用職務之便那所以其實我是蠻擔心利用職務之便然後去取得然後或者是又拐又騙所以雖然上面有寫所謂的加重期刑二分之一但是最後判一年多我們是真的很傻眼而且而且而且我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
18773.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
18794.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
未來我就是對不起我我就要一定要很大的天馬行空去想像我們現在又還有所謂的影像處理中心任何一個中心或者是任何一個依職務之便可以取得個資或者是聯繫到當事者的或者是看到那個影片的人我們都擔心會不會他在這個部分上利用職務之便去 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
18796.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
18812.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
18813.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
18831.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
那是不是兒少應該也要考慮納入到利用職務之便、利用職權去脅迫、威脅、利誘、誘拐之類的拍攝散佈這些影像各自加重其刑,然後刑度要有實質的刑度,而不是就像可能剛剛其他委員有提到有寫加重刑期二分之一,但是根本不敢判。 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
18832.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
18832.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
bicyC. |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
18832.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
18835.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
主席抱歉我是不是也是再補充一下就是說這裡面有兩個部分第一個就是利用植物之變它本來在這裡面就要加種了我們還要再加種第一第二個呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
18855.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
18869.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
他為什麼判一年多的原因是他不是用這一個三十六條也不是用兒少性剝削條例所以如果有法律上的競合的關係的話我們要求要從眾而且要就是說他跟其他法律有相關的話他必須要 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
18870.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
18886.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
引這個兒童及少年性剝削條例來起訴來辦案來重重處分。你不能幫助這一個犯罪人然後去幫助他減刑。我覺得這個個案如果你們不知道的話那就太荒謬了。這個個案真的是很值得從實務面還有法律面去來討論。這個時候不討論沒有得討論了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
18891.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
18918.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
我如果網路上搜尋沒有記錯的話他應該是使用那個類似各自法的一個私密保護的來做判刑可是我就覺得我非常不能夠接受因為我們都是孩子的父母親然後結果竟然用這個這麼一年半的一個刑期去判然後去用利用這個法所以我覺得就像剛剛委員說的我覺得這是不謀而合我們希望用最重的方式而且是有兩者的法律之下的話應該是著重刑的那個法律來做判刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
18919.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
18920.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
18937.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
18959.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
先往下走有共識的就通過沒有共識的我們委員表達完意見之後我們都先保留好不好然後我們再回過頭來處理我們分兩個部分前半段比較是針對行政機關我們增設這一條文他們該做事項因為他們又有一些修正我想前面比較容易有一些有共識就先通過涉及到後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
18959.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
18961.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
18981.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
18995.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
今天委員的這些意見,你們要反覆的思量。你們剛剛講的雖然有你們的道理,但是比如說剛剛提到的利用職務之便,為什麼反而沒有加重其刑?也沒有引用更重的條文?那這個已經有一個案例在那裡。那你們到底要怎麼樣去 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
19000.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
19000.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
閱讀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
19018.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
19042.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
我們訂了這樣的法律法官往往都引刑法第五十九條這個給他解刑還有檢察官為什麼這麼喜歡還起訴那這個事情的原因是什麼檢跟審至少今天要跟大家稍微講一下他們剛剛上午有講過上午講過有理由是什麼他們已經講過了他們對啦原因是什麼就是在他們說他們沒有刻意要這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
19045.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
19063.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
bicyn 他們都有原因的,因為每個個案都是個案,好嗎?每個個案都必須尊重。 林 沒有,那我們在法制面有沒有辦法想辦法就是,這個不得援引刑法五十九條,要不要排除刑法五十九條。 bicyn 對,所以我才說,其實有一些商務都已經討論過了,那就是說我們待會就是, |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
19064.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
19091.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
行政部門有提出修正版本的我們就先討論看可不可以通過好不好如果不行的就先保留那委員提案的這些我們第二輪回來就是再繼續原則有委員提案的我們都先保留好不好因為修法的要加重行者從上午討論到現在法務部有他的立場司法院也有他的看法那他們也擔心說這樣子一定下去會不會波及這一些未成年人也通通掃進來了然後這個到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
19094.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
19111.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
需要怎麼樣分層次處理因為我想委員提出來就是說針對這些惡意的是成人來謀利的或是利用職務之便的這些要加重其刑不是要去懲罰這些未成年人那在立法技術上有沒有可能脫鉤處理就是說不會這樣一竿子就是通通所以這個需要讓他們一點時間再去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
19124.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
19126.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
對對對所以這個就是要給比較縝密的思考嗎所以我認為這部分可能還需要如果今天送出去委員會之後我們透過朝野協商也讓法務部跟司法院回去再針對委員提出來這些不同的面向你們再仔細思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
19140.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
19150.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
應該不太可能今天下午馬上立即一問一答就有共識所以這個部分我們就先保留但是我們讓委員盡量發表就是說你在這邊你為什麼覺得應該要加重你看到的觀點跟什麼那法務部跟司法院必須都記錄下來就是說委員的這些角度都有他的道理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
19158.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
19160.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
19183.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
19208.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
更具體的,你們今天其實都沒有提版本,因為你都不同意,所以都沒有提版本。那你早上有談論到比如說可以點餐,然後去出任務,點餐就本來是支付費價的關懶,就關懶人可以變成點餐,那變成教說和指使的狀況,這樣我就有討論到這個嗎?那個在後面吧,可能還沒有。我們現在圖理到40條而已,對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
19214.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
19220.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
對,好,那如果這樣子的話,我們四十條就是還是先保留。來,四十條之一。四十條之一,如果四十條確定的話,它的內容是包含在四十條裡頭。好,那四十條之一就是合併到四十條一併討論,不另行爭定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
19241.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
19258.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
來,四十三條還有一條,四十一條之一那個組織刑犯罪這個部分你那個寫錯,四十一條之一我們要請法務部表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
19261.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
19289.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
法務部表示意見,是用組織形式。根據委員報告,事實上我們如果依照組織犯罪條例來看的話,那如果兒少性剝削的犯罪人有符合組織犯罪特殊的構成要件,其實我們是可以用組織犯罪條例來直接處理。像我們之前台中地檢署,台版N號房的某一個案件,他們的被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
19290.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
19304.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
︎台中地檢就是有用組織犯罪條例來處理那特殊的構成要件跟委員報告就是三人以上然後那個手段是強暴、脅迫、恐嚇、詐欺的手段然後那個最重本行欲就是超過五年以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
19305.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
19308.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
19325.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
19351.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
好,那我想其實這個部分我們如果可能就不太需要重複的在這裡構成要件再訂,因為這可能構成要件會有點矩語,因為我們其實組織犯罪條例已經有很明確的組織是什麼意義,那如果我們這個兒童及少年性剝削防制條例的定義如果跟那個沒有不一樣,我覺得就不需要再訂了。好,那個請羅廷惠委員提案委員來。好, |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
19353.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
19380 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
我想組織犯罪有趣定義我們都知道但是因為網路的新型態有所謂的新組織的一個構成所以我覺得應該要去做一個探討那我就想請問司法這個部分如果法務部這部分如果今天創意司法我們先不講他構成的版組他們有可能有三人以上的脅迫之類的假設有一個網友他自願擔當幾到幾歲的版組 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
19384.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
19393.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
當他從來沒認識創辦版主他只是自願性他願意來擔任這個志工擔任這個版主然後獲取這一個論壇裡面的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
19394.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
19413.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那會不會形成一個組織犯罪的其中一環那這次算不算新型態組織他從來都沒有跟真正的創版版主在一起過認識過但是他去擔任了其中一環的版主假設他們有動漫版動漫十八禁版假設還有幼兒版假設 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
19415.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
19426.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
讓他去擔任這樣子的一個版組之一協助管理業務網路業務去言論整理之類的那他算不算這個組織裡面如果抓到的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
19431.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
19431.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
19446.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
19475.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
你現在不就是在討論不用去看就是因為我們希望能夠整個根、根絕他們不管你你不應該去擔任這樣子的志工班主你不應該去從中獲取這個論壇的利益因為他獲取利益就是獲取可能兌換幣我不知道因為我沒有參與讓他去換更多的影片之類的這都是呃整個組織犯罪的其中一環當中只是他沒有直接參與他間接參與了算不算組織犯罪不好意思我說那這是新型的組織要不要定義起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
19475.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
19500.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
我們請說明來我們其實我們的意見針對是組織這兩個字因為組織在我們的組織犯罪條例它有它的定義那這個定義可能會跟這個兒童性剝削條例裡面有一些沒有辦法會有點會想矛盾的地方所以我們的意見其實只是針對組織那兩個字那如果說不要用組織這兩個字那我們也尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
19500.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
19507.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
就是要 如果要呈現你是說組織這兩個跟你們原來的那個定義是可能就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
19508.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
19534.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
瞭解,瞭解你的意思。你們並不反對加重刑刑,但是使用組織這個字眼可能怕你們在...對,因為我們的組織犯罪條例,它要三人以上,然後它的手段要強暴脅迫。瞭解。然後它的罪,雖然是禍啦,它要逾五年以下。瞭解,那是相對嚴格,但是新型態有可能剛剛羅委員自己也講,它會不同的型態,你剛剛講這些,它可能就是一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
19535.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
19560.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
刑事不見得符合那個組織的定義黃國昌委員我基本上會建議法務部、司法院也可以在討論條文的時候實際上面在實務上面最後判決的結果要比較清楚的講現在我還不是單純的在講刑度的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
19562.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
19583.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
因為剛剛你們所在講,說組織犯罪防制條例裡面已有規定,然後可以判到五年以上,你指的是哪一個條文?是哪一個過程要見?來,請你直接看法條,你把條文唸出來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
19591.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
19606.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
不好意思,我根本聽不懂你在說什麼。不好意思,我說明一下齁,它的定義是規定在主事番第二條第一項。這個我知道。對。我齁,這樣具體的講好了啦。是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
19607.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
19629.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
我又說不對,請法務部糾正我。組織犯罪條例在我國實踐上面,事實上它發揮的功能非常有限。我為什麼說它發揮的功能非常有限?因為你以組織的形態去犯犯罪的時候,事實上在第一次的犯罪當中,全部都被想像進而掉了。所以組織犯罪的條文會被吃掉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
19632.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
19658.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
你大概去看有構成組織犯罪條例的你把那個判決全部弄出來以後你會發現組織犯罪防制條例的條文最後全部都被吃掉最有名的是什麼最有名的就是刑法339條之四這個是現在的大眾嘛339條之四他的法定刑是一上、七下嘛跟組織犯罪條例比起來全部都被想像性合掉了所以組織犯罪條例根本沒有用到 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
19660.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
19686.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
這個是我國在針對組織犯罪的時候我們過去在立法上面因為太偷懶沒有細緻的規定什麼叫做立法上面太偷懶沒有細緻的規定是當你透過犯罪組織去特定犯罪的時候事實上他比單獨犯或者是偶發聚集的聚合犯他對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
19688.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
19713.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
我們法益保護所造成的侵害的嚴重程度是高非常多倍這個是一開始要去定組織犯罪條例的時候的立法意旨但我們在定組織犯罪防制條例的時候並沒有跟其他犯罪形態的去相結合什麼叫其他犯罪形態的相結合?譬如說我們組織犯罪防制條例我們所司法的美國RECORD法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
19713.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
19731.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
RICO法案是你用組織犯罪犯下面什麼什麼罪的時候它的法定形式如何全面的調高而且用列舉式的方式非常清楚的把它列出來就不會有被想像淨和掉不會有被想像淨和掉的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
19732.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
19750.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
那我必須要老實講說對於盧廷維委員他們所提出來的這個立法意旨我個人是贊成的你透過犯罪組織的方式來從事這樣子的行為他本來所會造成的危害就會比單獨犯跟偶然的聚合犯要高非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
19752.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
19778.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
因此加重他的法定期刑當然是有必要那只不過在立法的技術上面我或許可能私下會再跟羅委員或其他提案的委員討論做一個修正因為加重期刑是二分之一在我國實踐這麼多年快要變成一個笑話了什麼時候加重到二分之一啊就是往最低的法定期刑往上加一個月、加兩個月、加三個月大概都是這個樣子啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
19779.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
19804.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
這個加重起刑是二分之一完全是在法條文字上面欺騙社會大眾的條文因為根本就加不到二分之一實務上面的操作就是這個樣子所以站在法務主管機關的立場你們應該要清楚的告訴委員讓大家知道說在組織犯罪條例裡面那裡的規範我國的組織犯罪防制條例容我再講一次快要被架空了 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
19805.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
19826.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
幾乎都被想像進合掉了。實際上面適用那個組織犯罪防制條例的條文非常非常的少,導致你即使是用組織犯罪的方式來去構成某一個犯罪行為,根本不會有在理論上面,它應該要構成更重的法定型的法律效果。 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
19828.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
19847.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
如果說要從兒少性剝削防制條例這一次的修法活動開始徹底的去反省我過去在實務上面實踐所出現不合理的結果我覺得這是一個好的開始那如果是這個樣子的話我也希望法務部的同仁心胸要敞開一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
19848.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
19864.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
不要繼續單溺於過去那種錯誤的實務操作當中然後讓我們的錯誤繼續停留在過去的階段沒有辦法改正以上是我的意見謝謝好謝謝那我們41條之一就先保留我可以再講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
19866.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
19871.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
就是說我也十分同意11條之一就是說我們以這個創意司法的這個這麼具體的個案來討論那這個組織性犯罪我覺得我們就是要跟組織犯罪條例不一樣這個不一樣我們絕對不能等同跟他一樣因為我們要懲罰的目的還有這個組織形態也不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
19888.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
19898.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
應該是說這個組織是講以盈利為目的的組織分工去經營性犯罪或性剝削這個影像販賣為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
19901.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
19920.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
它已經構成了公司經營的營利型態的組織和分工,那它的目的是要販賣這些犯罪的影像,因為像創意市場全部都是性犯罪,雖然不只是兒童還有大人也都是性犯罪影片,都已經違反法律,它如果是以這種東西來經營性犯罪或者是性剝削,不管兒童或大人的,如果裡面涉及到兒童的當然就在我們這個法條界定範圍裡面,那我們要處更重更重的處分, |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
19932.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
19948.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
而不是糾結在組織犯罪的條例裡面什麼叫組織犯罪要不要三人以上要不要從屬關係有沒有這個指揮監督的這個關係要怎麼證明而不是我們就要證明他是以盈利為目的有組織分工我點餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
19951.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
19953.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
19969.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
19981.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
所以在這種狀況應該是要討論這個那要怎麼處分那要怎麼界定這個範疇大家應該是就這樣的概念一起來發想說條文應該怎麼定是比較完整和完善的 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
19983.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
20011.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
好來范委員還有沒有委員我有一個相關的樣態擔心是不是有漏掉因為這邊講的是組織形式的犯罪那另外就是因為根據那個國際經驗那現在一個所謂的網路誘拐行為那應該要被視為獨立於兒少性剝削的犯罪樣態可是我目前看不到那個范委員剛剛是第四十條我們先保留了你那邊是誘拐那剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
20012.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
20012.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
議員黃捷等 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
20026.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
20049.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
好謝謝來委員謝謝因為我是有提案的之一所以我還是要回應一下剛剛我很認同就是淑芬委員所提到的以盈利為方式但是我比較擔心我很認同之外可是我很擔心他使用到組織兩個字因為我現在就覺得好像我用組織兩個字不太好所以我想說是不是能夠修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
20051.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
20075.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
一人以上操作或者是兩人以上團體非個人所操作的情況之下多人營運模式就可判定這樣子的方式那就不要再陷入組織的這個文字的陷阱因為組織很難判定所以我希望說這個部分希望這個司法的部分能夠來做是不是這樣認定上會比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
20077.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
20081.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
20096.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
20113.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
20115.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
20140.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
好,四十三條單純是配合三十九條的修正,在第一項、第二項,在援引第三十九條的內容裡頭調整是增加第一項、第二項的內容,就是它是配合三十九條的修正。好,那因為前面保留嘛,我們就一併保留。好,四十三條保留,來四十四條。 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
20141.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
20158.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒� |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
20165.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
20166.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
有委員要再補充說明嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
20172.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
20201.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
好來林委員抱歉喔主席雖然火車已經過了我突然想到就是說我們要不要在哪裡放上有一個教育的概念不是教育而這個孩子未成年喔教育檢審單位就是要求檢警審單位每年也要上課多少時數就是或是每個人都要受過幾個小時的這個教育訓練否則這些法官他們對這種事情都覺得這是看A片而已要看小孩子的A片我的意思是說很容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
20202.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
20226.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
我覺得觀念上要被教育啦再教育或是再教育減精神有沒有辦法我們也想一下放在哪裡就是讓每一個司法執法的人都必須要重新上課重新認識好那這個意見可能衛福部也幫忙想一下我們參考新西安犯罪防治法好來左胸好那是四條針對是四條來 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
20230.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
20230.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
陳昭智委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
20251.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
20272.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
好,林委員。好,呃,這邊提出來是無正當理由故意購買取得的話,還有違反第四章規定的網際網路內容提供的會員資格,並有適時主任他支付對價取得的這個影像,那除一年以下有期徒刑,均獲得一克罰金三萬到三十萬以下罰金。 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
20274.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
20298.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
好來林委員謝謝羅委員提醒我我一直在講說你從支付對價關難變成一個教唆指使但是創醫師裡面允許會員點餐那要放在哪裡是不是放在這裡第二項加一個點餐條款你從一個支付關看而已變成一個教唆指使這種狀態那要怎麼樣再更從重 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
20302.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
20309.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
20323.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
20344.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
而增加的部分我就再提醒一下就是說不只是他有對價他有可能就只是單純教說或者是他希望然後引起別人來完成他的任務他沒有支付於任何形式的虛擬幣或者是什麼他只是說他希望就他會引起一個團體式的 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
20360.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
20370.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
對,他只需要一個鼓勵,好人一生平等,你去慫恿嘛,所以我就覺得說,是不是放上慫恿教說都算, |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
20371.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
20387.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
而不是單純的要有對價因為有時候群體上的一個期待去讓這些人想符合這些被認同感進而去做出危害他人對不起我沒辦法接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
20391.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
20419.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
對啊可是但是我擔心就是衛福部他沒有說啊這個不對價會不會就是範圍很大什麼的可是我要跟你講這件事情很嚴重所以應該要好好的去審視這件事情因為一個團體但我很擔心就是他沒有他真的沒對價他只是單純的我加一我也想加一我也想加一我也想那會不會變成一個群體的一個期待感 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
20420.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
20449.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
這一種的加一很可惡所以我跟蘇委員我們都覺得真的是非常非常的希望在這一次的修法當中我們把這些連旁邊給予期待的人都應該要予以嚴懲那他就會擔心他不應該留這個言嘛就等於是用鍵盤就會殺人用鍵盤就會教唆他人這是很可怕的一件事情好來范雲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
20451.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
20474.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
我想羅委員講這個好像可以歸在第四十條後面就是說以網際網路或其他方法散播傳送刊登或張貼足以引誘媒介暗示暗示鼓勵這些其他就是剛剛講的這個兒少性剝削的那是不是在四十條已經保留嗎文字上可以把這個部分放進去因為其實是最接近四十條的之一好還有沒有委員要針對這個提供意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
20482.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
20482.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
20494.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
20505.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
第四十四條之一是包含在第四十四條裡,所以我們建議這個部分併第四十四條處理。今天早上也有聽到說有一些小孩他們的狀況,其實他並不了解說其實他這樣排斥放到群組裡面,他就其實已經犯法了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
20518.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
20522.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
20535.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
20535.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
20560.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
20587.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
謝謝委員我補充一下為什麼我們要提出就是現在正在發生過去年修法之後的這樣一個現在進行式因為它的構成要件它都該當也就是說我們其實應該怎麼去區分剛剛各位委員提到的這些就是產業型的比如營利型的那還有就是這種組織犯罪型的這一期才是這次我們怎麼樣的去保護兒童不受性剝削的一個主要的一個立法的一個對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
20588.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
20605.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
但是我們都不要忘記了其實對於性的教育、性的認同、性的探索這些也都是每個人成長過程當中會有的將要忘記網絡時代這個應該要做明顯的區隔所以我們會建議說這次的修法應該著重在教育面 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
20606.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
20609.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
20625.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
20644.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
刑法體系是一個整部的刑法體系。那我們要考量到比如說像這樣的情形是不是要等同於殺人十年以上起跳或者是五年以上那其實刑法其實法律是沒有顏色的也不會分大小的十四歲以上他就該負擔刑責我們有做到讓十四歲以下的孩子都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
20646.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
20670.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
這一條線嗎?其實我們必須要扪心自問,因為我們都有孩子,那我們也身邊都有很多這樣的孩子,少年法院有很多這樣的孩子,那所以我必須要提出就是說防制少年不受性剝削是整個國際社會目前要齊頭併勁的地方,但是就是要考量到不要因為這次的創意私房這個類型的個案去影響到其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
20671.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
20671.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
20702.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
20725.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
這樣子一講我記得我們大部分這種行為都是成年人所以我現在講話要很小心那在這種狀況裡面我記得聯合報裡面有一個我們要不要討論一罪一罰這種事當然這樣很恐怖但是呢這裡有一個個案就是說這個有一個連台大都真是通過的人我看一下他犯了幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
20728.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
20754.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
他透過通訊軟體交往網站欣賞,然後又騙81個少女自拍裸照傳送寄給同好,而且恐嚇部分被害人。然後這樣的81名累計的刑期超過百年,最後宣告執行刑期是6年。6年。那像這種樣態我們要怎麼規範?當然一罪一罰是要叫死人,因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
20756.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
20757.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
20770.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
20797.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
那我們到底要怎麼設計?這個問題要放在哪裡?我想我們今天的討論就是讓委員可以把現在的確看到的外界關注的實務上面為什麼明明大家覺得應該要很重的又變得很輕那是修法的問題還是是判斷的問題還是是不敢去處罰的問題那所以今天我剛剛已經講過今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
20799.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
20817.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
在針對加重刑法的部分沒有辦法是立刻達成共識但是讓委員可以把你為什麼要這樣子提你看到了什麼是現在還沒有處理的盡可能的反應那法務部跟司法院接收到這些之後回去必須進一步研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
20818.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
20821.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
20844.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
20844.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
第45條 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
20860.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
20865.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
20880.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
20893.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
20904.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
20934.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
我們參考其他的這個兒童福利的相關的還有這個社福的相關文字通常因為有限期改善所以後面的衛醫改善的話他通常都是用一個月以上一年以下這種來做停業的一個處分以上那接下來是不是請法務部跟司法院說明第二項到這個後面的這個罰金跟刑度的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
20937.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
20937.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
20959.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
20981.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
在前面的條,我們像三十二條、三十三條那邊的話,它是屬於就是有從事到性交易的這一塊。那如果像四十五條就是沒有從事到性交易,只是它就是兒少的坐台陪酒,然後就是色情的伴遊、伴唱、伴舞,就是沒有涉及到所謂性交易的這一塊。因為涉及到性交易,那我們就是回到前面三十二條、三十三條。 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
20982.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
21008.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
那沒有涉及到這一塊就是純粹就是喝酒陪伴的這個部分呢會涉及到45條那涉及45條那我們是認為是說可能就是行為太讓的關係所以就是要有個區隔啦就是行度上要有區隔那至於基本上我們因為是過去的討論所以我們是維持這個衛福部的版本那委員的版本那我們也是尊重以上好那司法院有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
21013.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
21013.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
主法官主法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
21041.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
21065.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
本條的原第四項的規定是要加重其行為二分之一那剛剛國昌老師有提過這種立法例在司法實務上卻常出現加一個月也算加重其行的離譜狀況我後來了解好像這個非常的普遍因此我們有提出修正動議修正第四項意圖因應的犯罪形態等等法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
21066.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
21068.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
議員 還有沒有委員要表示意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
21102.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
21125.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
第四十七條是這個罰則的部分那配合這個第三條我們修正增加一項就是違反第三條第七項規定拒絕妨礙或規避那其餘的項目是現行條文這個跟前面第三條有關是不是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
21138.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
21156.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
第七項是我們要主動巡查,他如果有拒絕、妨礙或規避,他要罰這個六到六十萬。好,那這個大家有沒有意見?如果沒有意見,我們就按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
21157.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
21161.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
五十條的部分目前也是這個條高罰緩然後我們建議是維持現行的這個條文五十條好來民俗分委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
21182.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
21197.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
這個對輔導教育我是打問號所以我在委員會質詢的時候一直問你們說這個輔導教育到底有沒有效委員我們現在討論五十條五十條請問委員還有沒有意見維持現行條文誰舉手委員沒有意見沒有意見那我們就維持現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
21210.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
21238.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
來,五十一條,林淑芬委員。就是說,債範率有多高?這個輔導教育到底有沒有用?這個問題我們真的是很好奇。那委員會問你們的時候,你們好像都回答不出來,那現在可以回答了嗎?有沒有用?那這個債範率有多高?好,我們就並回答。剛剛還有三位委員來,范雲委員、林月琴委員、黃捷委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
21239.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
21265.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
我的版本是希望把原本就是犯這些相關刑罰的還要增加一個對其實施原本是四小時以上五十小時以下那我的版本是修正成八小時以上五十小時以下再增加一個案次處罰就是到參加為止否則他就是不來參加的話那你罰的錢就是什麼六千到三萬實在太少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
21265.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
21267.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
應加罰制其參加為止。 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
21281.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
21281.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
委員林岱群委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
21298.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
21328.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
21328.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
21340.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
所以也希望說等下在做說明的時候讓我們了解一下,否則我們大概希望針對那個身心治療,以上。好,黃捷委員,再來李燕修委員,再來林淑芬委員、張雅琳委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
21341.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
21368.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
好謝謝那我的提案裡面也有提到身心治療是因為現在的性侵害防治法裡面第二條第七條都有規定就是如果是違反性騷擾然後如果是強暴、脅迫、拍攝他人性影像等罪名依照他們的31條主管機關評估有必要都應該要讓加害人接受身心治療、輔導及教育也就是在性侵害 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
21369.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
21387.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
而性侵害防治法裏面有把身心治療放進去可是在兒少性剝削條例裏面目前的條文是沒有只有寫到輔導教育我覺得是不是應該要一致化然後來彌補過去立法上面有疏漏的地方所以我也建議這個身心治療是不是應該要加入謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
21389.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
21390.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
21405.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
21406.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
閱讀及評估後再加一個心理治療。 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
21424.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
21427.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
21445.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
21449.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
21462.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
21462.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
21488.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
21507.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
好來林淑芬委員我剛剛問你說有沒有效他再犯率是多少拿出統計給我們看以外那我現在就在講說第一項裡面最大的問題就是這些都已經是判決有罪的人而且或者是他是有罪但是是還起訴的 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
21507.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
21524.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
那這些人你要幾個小時才過已經是一個問題了嘛到最後一項你不正當理由他也不來上課也才罰六千到三萬元而已所以我覺得這個層次就是說有沒有效可不可以預防再犯但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
21525.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
21549.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
當他不上課的時候這些已經犯罪而且有犯罪事實的這些人竟然裁罰六千元到三萬元以下所以我在講兩個層次第一個一定要強制執行不管是強制教育或是強制治療第二個一定要加重處罰這個已經是各位這個條件是還起訴和被判有罪的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
21551.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
21555.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
所以我在這裡口頭動議光是最後一項都不可以只是這樣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
21559.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
21587.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
好,那我的版本最主要是因為要公開其姓名,因為根據《兒少權法》第49條及第97條,對,就是政府本來就對兒少犯罪者可以選擇公告他的姓名,所以我在這個法條裡面就加入了必要時得公開其姓名或名字,因為現在我也知道說,現在有一些犯兒少權法的這些相關的犯罪者,其實是由各縣市來政府來公佈,可是我真的只有查到台北市有啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
21588.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
21589.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
請問各位委員對於第51條還有沒有要補充? |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
21613.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
21613.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
21624.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
21644.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
朝委大院各位委員還有各位官員大家好這是衛福部心理健康司僅針對剛剛委員們提到的身心治療的相關科學數據來做一些補充首先因為去年有修法所以去年衛福部在6月19號一路到今年4月針對身心治療相關的這個方案證據就開始做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
21645.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
21671.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
况部會還有跨專業的研擬包含司法精神醫學會精神醫學會還有犯罪防治的相關學者專家及學會在此跟各位報告幾件事情蠻多委員在質詢的時候都有問到說是否可以比照毒品緩起訴或者是酒駕緩起訴來做相關的強制治療那跟各位人報告我們專家學者的研擬如下在毒品的緩起訴的治療方面有完成治療的跟單純監禁的 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
21672.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
21696.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
它的災犯率,五年災犯率可以下降50%,所以絕對的支持毒品擴大治療。第二個部分是酒駕緩起訴。衛福部的數據是,酒駕的累犯有高達三分之二是酒癮。所以經過緩起訴附帶健癮治療之後,它的一年內的災犯率是從18%下降到9%,有充分的證據。接下來要跟各位報告關於兒童性剝削相關的治療的證據,專家學者的意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
21698.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
21715.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
目前兒少性剝削的相關的治療以最新的文獻2023的發表包含了一千七百多位兒少性剝削的犯罪者目前的所有治療不管是認知行為治療、動力治療、這個預防復發、冬季式誤談等等其實都是沒有效果所以關於這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
21716.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
21721.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
21735.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
21756.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
21757.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
21772.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
他事實上也在2019年發表了他這個是匿名的針對主動來求助的所謂戀童癖患者來做治療他總共治療了53位去對比另外22位未經治療者可是在2019年他的文獻發表 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
21773.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
21799.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
它的十四項再犯指標都是無效,這個也確定的登在醫學期刊正式的發表。所以在此也懇請各位委員能夠參佐以上專業學協會還有衛生福利部的意見,是否能夠在第五十一條的部分,針對這個強拍的部分納入性侵害犯罪防治法加強身心治療。以上補充,謝謝。好,謝謝市長的說明。來,林淑芬委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
21801.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
21826.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
主席沒有回答到那這個都是國際上外國的研究他不是台灣本土的研究第一個第二個呢我就說不要談強制治療這裡講的是輔導教育輔導教育怎麼去跟強制治療比當然你會說比較高強度的強制治療都沒有用了那所以我們回過頭來輔導教育有用嗎第一個第二個我現在問的問題是說你們有沒有統計因為就只是統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
21827.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
21845.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
又不是叫你們去做行為模式的這個研究學術化的專業的研究到底再犯率有多高從頭到尾從委員會質詢到現在審法案你們都沒有回答我說這個這些犯罪者他們再犯率有多高 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
21847.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
21847.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
21869.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
21886.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
對,所以他需要一些時間,我坦白說。然後再來就是說,對於這個,我們把那個生育治療跟父老教育的確做了一個層次的一個處理。我們在去年修法的時候,把一些重罪,把一些重罪回應到這一類的這個他的這個行為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
21889.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
21919.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
21919.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
21920.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
21937.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
21966.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
在兒童、少年權益的保障還有對於新興科技犯罪的認識那第三個我們去強調健康的性觀念跟安全性行為第四個強調自我探索跟人我關係以及同理心的訓練就這個是我們在對行為人的輔導教育的五大面向做這個四小時到五十小時這樣的一個處理以上做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
21967.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
21995.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
好,來,那個剛剛林月琴委員、范雲委員還有林淑芬、還有李燕秀委員。真的用書很驚訝,是李先生?不好意思,如果這樣聽起來我很擔心,就是上課,上課有效嗎?這樣的輔導教育坦白講,我認為沒有任何治療效果,而且上了50小時。就正如剛才燕秀委員有提到,坐在那邊就聽嘛,聽了然後要播放, |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
21995.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
22013.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
我覺得這個沒有辦法去改變你跟我講法規很重他控制不了他自己身心狀況的時候他還是去就範所以我認為還是要去做身心治療這樣子會是比較妥適的而不是只有上課因為我聽起來輔導教育的剛剛這樣的說明就是上課以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
22015.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
22031.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
那我講一下我是蠻驚訝衛福部還沒有把那個統計做好啦然後就是說也無法了解像剛剛李燕秀委員提供的那個德國的經驗嗎那那可能只是那你們說他那個對治療戀童並沒有用但是那可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
22032.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
22057.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
閱讀之一,國內總是有學者專家,對國外的這些研究比較,我們如果自己沒有做研究,那學者專家至少可以快速去了解各國的研究好嗎?要不然我們好像是瞎子摸象,不知道是要增加輔導教育,還是增加身心治療,還是其他的方法。那我是建議這個,這條是不是先保留,那衛福部是不是可以緊急把你們的統計,剛剛林淑芬委員講的,你至少先跑出來,然後也請教。 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
22058.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
22075.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
國內的學者專家對國外相關的這個有效的處理方式,譬如說教育的內容,因為剛聽到你講教育內容,好像也沒有針對兒少啊,你講的是什麼人我界限其他的,沒有針對兒少的部分。抱歉我剛說明不夠清楚,所以在此跟各位委員報告, |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
22076.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
22079.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
22091.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
22091.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
議員黃捷 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
22107.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
22132.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
之前說為什麼國內數據剛剛張學文司長有報告過說目前數據在保護室他目前正在跑他一定會呈給各位委員但心理健康司這邊要補充報告的是說身心治療國外的所有的統計數據包含國內的重要的專家學者全部都徵詢過從去年的6月19號開始到上個月那目前針對身心治療對於兒少性剝削的再犯率 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
22132.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
22147.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
目前沒有有效的證據所以他們才會請我在這裡提出來請各位委員所參佐那第二個部分是要跟委員報告的是說在2020年的11月21號當時的兒童健康聯盟跟台灣兒科醫學會 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
22148.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
22170.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
就針對整個兒少性剝削的所有犯罪預防而受害者及害者處遇做一個完整的國際文獻的回顧當中有三項重要的決議一個是希望誘拐未成年未來能夠加強教育第二個部分就是今天委員很多提到的是圖像的處理第三個部分是關於司法法制處遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
22171.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
22171.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
22189.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
22193.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
身心治療可以預防兒少性剝削的再犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
22203.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
22230.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
好 謝謝補充說明 來李燕修委員好 我就拿一個個案黃子佼這個個案以現行的輔導教育來說你告訴黃子佼兒少性剝削法的內容有沒有意義有沒有辦法治療這就是我強調有效的心理治療是很重要的不管國外的文獻是什麼它可能是之一、之二難道我們因為文獻不足我們什麼都不做了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
22231.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
22248.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
我覺得這個不是衛福部應該說出來的方法我們應該想辦法去跟這些人想辦法找一些學會心理治療師我們有效的去累積更多的數據我們來看看後續可以做什麼樣的處理難道全世界對於這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
22249.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
22254.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
22271.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
22276.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
22287.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
22289.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
22318.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
22338.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
這觀念上面會有幾個必須要去做澄清的現在是我們現在所提的這一些大家主張說不管是要做輔導教育或者是說要強制治療、身心治療這些其實它是不同的態樣這個犯罪的態樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
22340.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
22366.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
那這些不同犯罪態樣有一些是這樣子他本身不太清楚說這樣子是犯罪的因為我們過去在這兒少性剝削的影像的這部分的話過去連持有都沒有入罪所以有許多的人可能不認為說他是一個犯罪的行為這一類的話輔導教育是有效的 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
22367.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
22375.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
他被罰之後,你又說你這個什麼不可以做、什麼不可以做。他再犯的機會就會減少。這一類的人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
22378.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
22398.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
第二類的人,如果說他還是一直在犯,這個就會落入到跟性侵害類似的。性侵害犯罪犯罪人,當他出獄之後,服案刑期之後的話,會有就是說可能會進入到所謂的生性治療的這一個部分。 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
22399.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
22427.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
但是這些身心治療有一些是會有效但是我們所知道的如果他累次就是說是一個累犯的話治療對他無效那一種個案的話要處理的話就是要做電子監控等等這些要用司法的方式去做處理而不是說交由醫學因為醫學上已經沒有好的治療方法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
22427.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
22428.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
反社會人格違常 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
22441.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
22468.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
這不可以啦!它有一點點已經上癮了,你再怎麼治療也不太有效。所以最好的話就是變成社區行為監控。這是最有效的,大概是這個樣子。而不是一直讓醫學界要去找出那個方法。其實全世界這個方法都已經找過,都沒有什麼效果。 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
22469.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
22476.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
我們難道還要再浪費資源在這些人身上嗎?應該是從另外一個角度去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
22480.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
22504.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
好 謝謝部長的說明這一個部分我想這個委員還要繼續發言我想大家已經理解大家的意思那衛福部的意思大概也不是不處理啦他是很務實的告訴大家如果針對很特殊的這一種反社會人格在醫學上面已經證實他是沒有辦法有效的有效的處遇所以最終 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
22505.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
22528.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
22529.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
22529.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
請勿模仿 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
22546.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
22567.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
就是說因為剛剛其實我有講就是說因為其實剛剛已經聽得非常清楚就是身心治療可能對於一些已經沒救的人是對是沒有用的那所以我在這一條其實加入了必要時得公開其姓名或名稱但剛剛好像也沒有聽到回應這樣子對我們是不是可以更強制性的因為你們剛剛也有講嘛就是社會社區性監控嘛可是我們現在根本不知道去哪裡找到這個人是不是有問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
22568.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
22596.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
對阿,所以這個部分是不是可以把它放,不然就可以就這一點來表示意見,謝謝。好,針對林委員提的這個部分,我們在一百零四年一月剛修過,就一百零四年那個時候,之前一百零四年以前這個法案的名稱叫做《兒童及少年性教育防制條例》,那在一百零四年一月二十三號三讀通過的名稱叫做《性剝削防制條例》,就在那一次的修法裡頭, |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
22597.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
22613.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
原先的條文三四條他有很清楚的明定主管機關要對這個行為人的姓名要公告以及照片還有判決的要旨在三讀的時候呢大院呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
22614.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
22640.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
繼於人權意識的考量同時他相較於性侵害犯罪防治法他採取的這個性侵害犯罪防治法更嚴他採取的是一種被動查詢他不是主動公告那基於比例原則比例這個依本條例的公告行為這個行為人的照片似乎就不符合這個比例原則所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
22640.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
22660.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
在當年一百零四年的一月二十三號三讀條文的時候把這一條做了一個刪除那以上說明那這是也是立法院三讀通過的刪除是在一百零四年的一月二十三修正條文裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
22661.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
22661.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
閱讀委員參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
22673.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
22696.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
部長所談的概念是說我們就對輔導教育有效的或是防治強制治療有效的我們先來處理這樣子那當然他也可以不去上課啊他也可以不上課啊你看這些都已經被證明有罪的有事實犯罪事實的人他不去上課罰六千元而已所以我的意思是說剛剛燕秀說他一萬到五萬我也覺得太少太低 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
22698.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
22719.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
我覺得還要再重罰,至少要三萬五萬元起跳,第一個。第二個,這個剛才因為司長在講說,這個你那個叫什麼,性侵害,你是被動的查詢,可以查到那個當事人這個加害者的照片姓名什麼,被動查詢式的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
22720.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
22737.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
但是呢,你以為兒少性剝削的侵犯的這個狀態沒有程度,它沒有比性侵害還更高,那可不一定啊。我的意思是說,在聯合報前幾天的報導不是有講有一個九歲被偷拍的人, |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
22738.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
22743.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
到現在他已經成年了他的影片還是會被搜尋到他在講說什麼時候我可以不用再這樣被看見他是一輩子的性侵害當然也是一輩子可是他不斷的被觀看可能是一輩子的永遠的所以這個侵害的程度上不見得是比較輕的我覺得是這樣子啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
22762.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
22765.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
而至於要公告行為人的姓名和照片, |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
22782.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
22784.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
22812.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
22828.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
五十一條之一就併五十一條也是在講聲音治療輔導教育的這個內容他要成立評估小組好那我們就併到五十一條之一我們就不修訂就是內容就併到五十條一併討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
22830.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
22831.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
五十三條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
22853.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
22859.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
五十三條之一維持現行條文,有沒有委員有意見?沒有意見的話,五十三條之一維持現行條文。謝謝大家,我們已經走完一輪了。我們回過頭來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
22881.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
22904.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
我們回過頭來處理前面的那個保留的條文從第二條開始來第二條第二條這個在第二第二項我們增加了對重置的一個說明就是第二項第二項是第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
22907.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
22907.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
市長請說來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
22927.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
22938.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
本條例所稱重置指的是為散佈、為脅迫他人或支付對價所為的重置行為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
22959.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
22975.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
所以,正面表列。好,你們就是新增加這個嗎?好,那第二條,那個,原來,呃,陳昭之委員,來。謝謝,這個,我們黨團有提出這個修正動議案第七,請大家看第七案齁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
22977.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
22980.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
於信相關而客觀上足以引起刺激或滿足性慾且無。 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
22994.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
23007.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
23016.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
23032.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
23033.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
23060.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
好,對不起,因為我覺得你的重製這兩個字齁,我覺得對於這個二次元創作啊,ACG這部分,他們有所謂的這個可能是仿一些卡通影片啊,這叫做二次創作。那所以你的重製的定義上,我會擔憂會跟這個ACG會有所抵觸到他們最重要的一個權益齁。我覺得,所以在我的版本當中,我們這邊是以說與性相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
23061.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
23080.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
公然陳列或販賣兒童、少年之性影像與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥以真人所繪製之色情圖畫及電池記錄生成之擬真色情的 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
23083.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
23095.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
當然剛剛也看到這個民眾黨有做這個修正動議我們樂見大家一起為了這個ACG來努力但是我不是說不禮貌但是我只是把我的擔憂說出來就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
23098.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
23123.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
民眾黨所提出的一個版本它有所謂的藝術性我會擔心這個所謂的藝術的辨別在司法部門上它並沒辦法很充分的去客觀事實認定什麼叫藝術什麼叫做教學所以我這邊有提到的是以真人所繪製的色情圖畫意思就是繪製人物不能是有一個真人為模板去侵犯到人家的 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
23124.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
23150.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
這是絕對不行那電池記錄生成之擬偵射情圖化就是AI生成電池記錄這個用法是參考刑法的第十條稱電池記錄者為以電子記錄光學或其他相類的方式所製成而供電腦處理之記錄所以我想這個我知道會夫有準備要提出含釋但既然今天準備要修法我覺得就把這個錄法定義清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
23151.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
23167.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
當然衛福部會跟我講犯罪的多樣性、多元性但我們也不覺得衛福部每一次都有辦法用函式去處理每一個樣態所以乾脆就是能夠把它入法定義如果沒有排除的話不排除也有可能會增加相關的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
23172.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
23172.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
23186.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
23186.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
議員黃捷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
23206.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
23227.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
好,我也是想要補充這個部分,因為其實這個之前iWIN的爭議,我們跟衛福部跟法務部其實都有很明確的把協調會的條文都已經列出來了,然後這個韓式也請他們發出了。但是如果照民眾黨的這個版本會有一個問題,因為其實我們會區分,就是那個圖像是不是擬真的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
23228.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
23251.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
就是如果它是擬真的我認為也不應該啦就是我們都很保障二次元的創作者的權益可是如果以你們的修正的條文啊就會變成說因為四字617號其實有分成硬蕊跟軟蕊的概念那你們看起來是就是說要排除硬蕊但是如果你們軟蕊也放進去的話會變成說如果它現在是一個擬真的兒少的性交的圖畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
23253.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
23274.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
是不是也被合法化了?我覺得這是一個蠻大的問題喔。所以我認為照你們的版本可能會有一個這樣的缺漏。那另外衛福部新加的這個重製的定義是不是跟制裁法的文字不太一樣?這是不是要請法務部說明一下?因為原本重製的定義是說印刷、複印、錄音、錄影、攝影、筆錄或是其他方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
23279.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
23283.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
此外,若你寫的這句紅字本條文所稱的重置只是散佈或脅迫他人或支付對價的重置行為,那是不是就排除掉我們一開始想說的下載呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
23302.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
23310.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
23330.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
23353.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
好,那還有沒有其他的問題,針對第二條,第二條。委員一併反應完,我們一併請衛福部來解釋說明。好,如果沒有,那我們請衛福部來說明,來請。好,那有關於重置齁,我們現在寫的這個第二項齁,是因為早上我們大家討論嘛。那本來重置指的就是下載,齁,都算嘛。但,但是現在會變成說範圍過大。 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
23358.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
23373.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
無故的話我早上有說明過你如果是無故的話就沒有正當理由去做重置嘛這時候只有要這一個去做這一個動作的下展的人去舉證說我這個是有特別的原因的 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
23374.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
23393.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
那這樣子的話仍然沒有辦法去排除早上在舉例的時候在LINE裡面的話大家傳這些小朋友他們傳來傳去這每一個都重置都有問題我還是建議說我們這條是不是保留因為部長的理解跟我們了解的上次的那個刑法的成人性影像的那個無故下載 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
23394.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
23411.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
對。對。對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
23412.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
23432.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
大概問題在這。現在我們講的是兒少比成人還嚴重。因為你如果知道是兒少你還下載就是犯罪行為啊。但是早上在談的就是小朋友中間也是穿來穿去。他說他不知道青少年本來就會有少事法會去處理了。對不對?不是這樣子。我們現在真的是成年人知道是兒少下載。你不能說講到少事法的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
23434.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
23438.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
23455.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
23479.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
請允許我再說一次我們黨團的大家的共同意見,就是我剛剛提到的那個部分是要四個要件同時存在,四個要件,一個與性相關,客觀上足以引起刺激或滿足性慾,而且第三個沒有藝術醫學或教育價值,第四個令一般人感覺不堪承認等等,就是四個條件,任何一個條件它不成立不存在的時候,這個條文就 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
23481.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
23503.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
就是無效,就是我必須說明我們黨團的立場是這樣,我們覺得那個完整性是足夠的,謝謝。來,部長。讓我把話講。對,讓部長完整論述完,委員再發言好了。因為現在第二條大家有意見是兩個,一個就是重製的定義,那這是我們提出來的建議,那當然我們也可以不接受,回到那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
23505.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
23530.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
告知法還是刑法這個我們沒有意見只是早上大家在討論的時候認為如果行為是只是重置就通通會變成是要處罰的對象的時候會不會範圍過廣所以我們是說建議的提出來這個建議條文是說就適度的把它限縮這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
23531.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
23553.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
第二個那個民眾黨所提出來的這個條文,其實他是大法官釋字第617號的解釋的內容。那這個部分的話,我們建議如果可以的話,我們就把它的那個大法官的解釋的條文的最重要的內容。 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
23553.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
23554.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
告告告告告告 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
23577.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
23586.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
主席可不可以請法務部說明這個跟刑法第319之三條針對成年人的性私密影像的重置可以給他不同的文字嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
23589.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
23590.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
23609.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
23612.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
23632.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
23653.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
此行為的可責性要高一點,所以當時在行政院修法的過程當中,我們就特別設了這一個項,就是說未經他們同意,無故怎麼樣怎麼樣,那一個是專門就是針對這種合一拍攝,那重置的這兩個字呢,當時也是經過一番的討論。 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
23654.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
23670.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
繼而政策決定還是把重製放進去。那基本上重製這兩個字其實最早是來自於著作權法,沒有錯。那它其實就是重複的一個製作的動作,所以叫做重製。那早上我想衛福部早有有跟我來討論這個相次啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
23672.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
23701.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
那實在是因為有一些有委員來找我們討論就是說那如果把重置現在這樣子規定到兒童性剝削裡面的話那例如說就是今天一群都國小生、國中生他們都成一成一個賴的群組了然後可能不曉得有一個什麼樣的性影像傳到這個群組裡面那A同學他根本不想看可是其實他的手機已經收到這個訊息那時候就問我們說那他有沒有持有有沒有重置 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
23701.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
23724.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
其實因為現在在數位的這個科技技術底下持有跟重置幾乎是等同但是這個是我只能說這個是因為科技技術那這樣在這種賴的群組裡面確實都有可能所以說當時就是為了有委員提出這樣的建議那衛福部他們也是希望說不要就是造成就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
23725.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
23726.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
法務部有否更好的建議? |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
23754.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
23754.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
23778.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
23800.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
我們在這一條的第二項定義這個重置就是指兒童及少年性剝削在這一條這個法法裡頭講的重置講的就是這個就跟剛才講的這個著作權的那個重置就區隔對就區隔所以在體力上的處理是不是可以我們只要在這邊明定這邊重置的定義其實就不會有混淆的問題是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
23801.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
23822.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
就法律上是不是?法務部。是。我們現在基本上在各個法規裡面在像例如說性侵害犯罪防治法它會針對性侵害犯罪這五個字做一個定義。對。就像我們的犯罪被害人保護權益保障法我們會針對犯罪被害人五個字做一個定義。那我們所以說基本上只要它在 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
23823.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
23833.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
我們的法這種特別法它在定義裡面做就是說針對這個字例如說現在我針對重製這兩個字就寫下了這樣子的一個定義所以它這邊有下面寫本條例所稱重製所以這個變成這個條這個這個項規定下去之後這個重製這兩個字的就是只要在這一個條例裡面出現的重製這兩個字它的範圍就會限制在這個地方就會回到這個定義對 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
23848.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
23860.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
那我們也會去做一個宣導就是說如果這個法就這樣過了以後我們也會提醒檢察官說這個定義要記得回來這邊看不能夠再用過去的定義去解釋這樣子了解好來羅廷惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
23862.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
23866.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
因為剛才布朗已經特別講說如果我們要排除二次元包括回應民眾黨黨團提的那個文字我們為什麼沒有接受民眾黨黨團的文字原因是因為第 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
23891.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
23910.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
第二條、第一項、第三款的這個文字就是與性相關而客觀上足以很長的那一段話是刑法的文字。如果在這裡我要把它改成民眾黨或者是羅委員的版本,那請問刑法要不要改? |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
23910.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
23936.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
它會有一個相稱性我的版本跟民眾黨不一樣啊對對我知道我的意思是說同樣的意思但是為了要排除二次元的這個部分我們目前是寫在說明欄特別寫在說明欄就麻煩委員們看這個大本的第一頁的右下角倒數第四行開始就是說第一項第三款所稱的圖畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
23938.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
23953.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
指的是生成式的人工智慧製造、擬真、繪製或是以真人實際存在、真實存在的兒童或少年作為創作背景的色情圖畫為線。 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
23956.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
23979.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
已經說得很清楚以及我們還後面說其餘的跟性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥的圖畫仍然有刑法二、三、五條的規定同時呢也要按照兒童及少年福利與權益保障法的46條規定採取明確可行的防護措施這邊寫清楚那剛才布朗也特別講說如果這裡這樣子寫都不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
23984.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
24012.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
要在我們的法條裡頭再加一個說明這第三項說明本條力所稱的圖畫指的是什麼什麼我們也接受但是相較如果放在說明欄它的彈性就將來有一些狀況的時候它的解釋的彈性存在可是如果你把它載明在法條文字裡面它就寫死就是相較它沒有那麼大的彈性以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
24012.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
24013.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
24030.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
24032.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
會真的要給主管機關一點點彈性因為現在變動太大了你什麼都要寫死就是我們立法院就要一再的修法但是如果賦予主管機關一定的這個行政的權限他可以彈性去處理這個或許是在兼顧兩邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
24044.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
24073.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
我覺得還蠻合理的一個做法了。好,謝謝司長這樣一個見解。好,來委員請。我還是沒有辦法接受這個跟成年人的性私密影像的重置定義差異這麼大。那因為我們今天法條真的審了好久。那我擔心說這樣就通過之後,就是是不是能夠保留讓大家在文字上,因為某些部分大家都很有共識嘛。那還不清楚的部分大家再回去各自斟酌思考一下,好嗎?好,OK。 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
24074.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
24076.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
好來林岱請問然後蔡易瑜委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
24079.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
24105.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
大概條文說明這邊也想就教的,就是說這個寫的是說以真實存在的兒童或少年為創作背景的色情圖畫,是要我一個林岱琴存在的這個人的影像,還是事實上是跟人,我們當初很反對事實上是AI這樣的狀況,已經是跟人已經達到完全事實上是類似,不知道你這樣的解釋是否事實上是清楚的,以上。 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
24110.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
24135.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
來先參議員、羅廷樂委員還有詹阿林委員首先齁我反對我們在兒少性剝削條例去創造跟母法或跟其他法律定義不同的名詞這個未來在法律的一個適用上被扁是從事的行為那我從事少年人、老年人的性影像 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
24137.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
24158.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
就跟我重置兒少的性影像要有不同的定義。如果這個兒少他幾歲不知道,那我這個犯罪行為我還要先知道說我這個重置的人是幾歲。這個是一個很奇怪的狀況,大家去思考一下。所以我們寧可再發明一個新的名詞。 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
24160.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
24175.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
我們不能去說變變是重置,然後這個重置在其他在刑法上都已經有它的定義的時候,然後我們說我們在兒少性剝削的重置它的概念是不同的,這件事情未來這個體力的適用會大亂。 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
24178.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
24201.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
這個我覺得,因為我們知道說法律定了,未來就會有人犯罪,有人犯罪他就會去找律師要去辯護,他辯護方向一定會像我這樣辯護啊。我就是不知道我是這樣重製的啊,我怎麼知道我這種重製是變成兒少性剝削,我的重製我是要刑法的重製,我又不是要做兒少性剝削的重製。 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
24203.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
24209.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
啊這個這樣就亂掉了啦,重製就是重製。為什麼重製在兒童性剝削的時候就是有對價關係,然後再單純的重製就不用對價關係,這有什麼得力啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
24217.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
24245.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
第二個就是說我想因為這一次在討論兒童性剝削當然有涉及到圖畫然後這陣子就會有所謂二次元的問題那後來我們是希望在修正條文以及未來衛福部願意說韓式的部分把它法條把圖畫這兩件事把它定義清楚那當然說我們在討論的過程中針對這種AI超級擬真雖然他沒有以真人為背景但是他用AI做出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
24246.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
24271.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
基本上和真人幾乎一樣,和真人幾乎一樣,而且無法判斷到底有沒有這個人。你如果說以真人為背景就是有這個人,那有這個人他當然會,有真人他就會跳出來說,啊你怎麼可以為我的銀子,你為我這樣,這個是有真人為背景。那如果A案的話你看不出來,可是他畫出一個很像仿真的,那既然他仿真,有可能他真的有這個人,只是這個人不知道。 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
24273.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
24295.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
只是這一個人不知道,所以我們認為AI的狀況因為已經反昇到我們無法落眼去判斷到底有沒有這一個實際的人的存在的情況之下,那這部分必須要有所限制,因為他有可能已經生死侵害到了部分落在哪裡的一個小朋友,只是我們不知道而已。 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
24296.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
24312.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
所以這部分是必須我們在當時討論的時候會認為說這部分還是要有所管制所以我們認為說在這個修正條文的一個說明已經足夠那當然民眾黨有提出說那我們是不是把617所謂硬蕊軟蕊的概念把它入法化 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
24313.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
24334.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
那我覺得如果要處理這件事的話應該回到刑法235條因為235條就是所謂散播違憲物品那如果散播違憲物品的這個行為需要被檢討的需要用大法官解釋硬蕊、軟蕊去把它做實際的檢討那我想散播違憲物品這件事如果有罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
24336.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
24364.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
如果是有罪然後需要被定義的話應該回到刑法去定義那在刑法的部分就是把散播猥褻物那猥褻物就再把民眾黨的這種這個大法官617號解釋的文字入法化是比較好的不然就等於說伯伯又散播猥褻物品那我在散播成人的猥褻物品也是不對的啊一樣有刑法的罰則啊但是我在散播行人猥褻物品跟散播兒少的猥褻物品 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
24365.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
24376.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
同樣的狀況,然後就法條的文字概念又不一樣,這樣不好。所以我覺得在處理條文的時候,我們還是要系統性的去看整個條文的一個架構好不好。好,謝謝。剛剛還有哪位委員要發言?來,羅委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
24382.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
24412.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
好我覺得次長剛剛我講的就是電池紀錄深層之你真色情圖畫這個我就有參考刑法第十條我還是覺得原條文的定義就是在定義在第二條要修正也是修正在第二條還是希望能夠入法那依照我們的修正動議來做一個修正那我同意這個主席跟這個衛福部的說法要把我彈性但是現在我們的版本入法並沒有失去這樣子的彈性我們並不是把整個法條都拿掉而且就 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
24412.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
24435.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
就是因為之前衛福部想要擴大解釋,因為我記得你們保護司的司長有講的,就是擴大解釋,而造成爭議嘛,所以你們現在才要去這個函釋,現在要限縮應該是很合理的,所以我覺得既然你已經要準備函釋了,這個東西就應該把它錄法,所以我覺得我是很堅持這個,如果真的沒有的話,我希望經負協商。 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
24438.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
24460.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
好,來張委員。好,就是關於那個重製的定義的部分啊,我是覺得說我支持那個范瑀維的意見啦,我覺得我們可以再討論一下,因為的確我們是現實面上面,因為之前在做兒童人權教育的講師的時候,我真的遇到非常多的小孩,他們真的是不知道他今天把照片傳到群組裡面,他收到群組哦,就是有人把他傳到群組裡面,他收到,他其實就已經犯法了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
24461.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
24477.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
對,那其實對這樣子的孩子來說,他其實非常無辜的,那所以這個部分我覺得我們是要去保,但是我也同意大家說的,就他可能會造成在判刑的時候會有一些爭議,會有一些問題,所以這部分我們是不是可以保留在好好的仔細思考如何去用這一條這樣子好不好,謝謝。好,來部長再補充。 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
24482.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
24492.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
我稍微做一點補充,那刑法319條之三,它前面有一個條件就是未得他人同意。 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
24495.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
24519.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
但是在我們這邊的話就沒有這個條件為什麼?因為小孩子不會去同意這個而且他的同意對他本身是有傷害的這個同意是有問題的所以因為是這樣的所以基本上的重置跟刑法就不一樣在兒少性剝削條例裡面的重置就是不一樣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
24522.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
24534.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
我們之所以要去限縮的原因也是在這個地方,因為就如同剛剛張委員提到的,那就是孩子群組來都要傳來傳去,他就不知道說這樣就是緩緩了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
24536.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
24559.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
所以這才說可能需要做一點限縮因為在兒童及少年性剝削條例跟憲法的範疇要處理的對象是有不太一樣的地方所以我們才提出這樣子的一個就是說讓他的這一個所謂的重製行為前面有一個就是說他的目的性 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
24560.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
24582.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
如果是他為了這些目的而去做的話,那才是屬於我們要處罰的對象。不然的話,這一定會跟刑法是不同。這是第一個。那第二個,有關於那個圖畫,就是說兒少有關的這些性圖畫的問題。其實大家的意見並沒有差很多。 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
24589.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
24594.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
也就是說是依照大法官第617號的解釋為基礎只是說要把它放在說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
24606.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
24627.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
說明懶,讓行政機關有多一點的空間來做處理,還是說直接就入到法律去,讓他更為明確,這個是立法的技術的問題。我想這部分是可以討論的,如果說委員們認爲說,都是意見認爲說,還是放到法律裡面,那我們也不會反對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
24629.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
24648.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
條文的部分的話當然我們也可以來斟酌提供給大家做參考如果說大家覺得說這樣子的話會讓行政機關恐怕會有彈性不夠因為未來科技的發展會變成什麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
24652.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
24675.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
這個不容易掌握的話那也許就是說先不入法然後我們先用韓式來做處理韓式的話如果可以與時俱進的再去增加或者是刪減這兩個方法其實對行政機關來講都可以接受啦就是說看看大院委員的大家的意見是怎麼樣多數意見是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
24680.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
24709.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
謝謝部長的說明那我們第二條就先保留好不好這個大家回去再想一下好來第三條第三條我們有一個建議的修正條文那在第二項裡面我們就參考委員的這個建議然後我們也跟部分的這個部會做了一些討論我們有如列了第十三 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
24709.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
24714.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
24727.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
24745.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
24745.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
24768.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
警察跟司法檢查這個要來做這個運用科技技術然後做主動查詢後來不讓指示那我們就直接寫中央主管機關我們來做那另外就是網路業者要做配合第七項以上說明是第六項改由中央主管機關來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
24772.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
24795.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
好,針對第三條這個衛福部重新提出的建議修正版本各位有沒有意見?好,來林岱請委員。好,這邊再提出來這邊跟我的有一些差異的是在於本來我是分裂主管機關跟設政主管機關當然中央跟地方要合併我沒有意見可是要注意到 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
24796.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
24818.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
只有行為人的輔導教育到甚至衛生主管機關都只有行為人的身心治療我覺得好像對被害人的一些協力事實上是沒有本來我的條文裡邊大概有寫到說對於被害人像衛生主管機關被害人的驗傷心理輔導跟身心治療 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
24819.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
24821.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
24838.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
24863.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
24863.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
24866.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
24884.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
24901.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
而性剝削的犯罪預防而已,應該是要把它列清楚。不好意思,前面勞動主管機關的話應該是要加勞動權益維護及自立生活,然後頓耗其他相關事宜。 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
24903.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
24907.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
24919.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
24937.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
24940.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
24965.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
報導就查查兒少的性影像的嫌疑世界的技術跟資源相關事宜還是要把直接寫出來是他應該協助限制擷取直接把定出來以上大概就是我這邊的意見就是如果按照我這我對照下來我覺得欠缺的部分以上好請問委員還有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
24967.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
24993.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
如果沒有的話剛剛議事人員有提醒就是內政主管機關包含警政、移民、戶政因為你後面第五條又提到內政主管機關所以這邊是不是要把這幾個單位變成是內政主管機關然後下面再分立警政、移民、戶政就是體力就是一致這樣你後面都你第五條特別提到內政主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
24995.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
25000.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
那這個衛福部一併參考好不好?好那委員如果沒有其他意見請衛福部說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
25002.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
25032.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
那有關被害人輔助這一塊我們寫在主管機關的這個監督及其他相關事宜分號後面被害人保護輔助這個保護輔助的項目非常的廣、非常的大所以包括林委員在意的部分都在被害人的保護輔助事項裡頭所以這個部分沒有問題那後面涉及的相關部會可能就麻煩相關部會來做回應那勞動主管機關今天勞動部不曉得有沒有到 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
25034.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
25062.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
好,勞動主管機關剛才林委員提到那個自立生活基本上那個是社政做的我們就在放在保護生活輔助裡頭所以跟委員做這樣的溝通那至於內政主管機關我們是不是要在第第五條做修正因為其實這個內容警政主管機關跟移民主管機關因為他們都是機關所以我們比較尊重內政部的那個工作的執掌所以在這裡把它劃分清楚會比較好對 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
25063.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
25064.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
25080.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
25097.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
先說明了教育機關的第三行有出現一個性影像防治教育這邊的治用的是治療的治不是反制的治到底用哪一個可能得稍微確認一下這是第一個另外就是第13款 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
25098.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
25113.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
他也有出現一個其他兒童及少年性剝削及性影像防制措施兩邊有同步一致性的問題然後我查詢了一家法規資料庫其實目前現行的法規還沒有出現過性影像防制 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
25114.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
25131.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
這樣的文字是不是可能第一次出現是不是可以更慎重一點因為在我來看在目前性剝削防制的條例裡頭的這個定義裡頭那個性影像的那塊應該也包含在性剝削的範圍內所以是不是要單獨列我覺得應該可以不用單獨列以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
25133.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
25155.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
教育部這邊還是沒有回應我剛剛講你這邊大概略宣導因為另外一個就第四條我也不同意你本來是寫課程還好又或教育宣導因為我對部裡面非常了解那個教育宣導就跑馬燈跑一跑那個跑幾小時就算等一下第四條那個兩小時就過了甚至趙蕙在口頭上講十分鐘累積了那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
25156.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
25164.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
25179.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
25206.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
先說明通常我們用教育兩個字的時候它就會包含正式課程、非正式課程、潛在課程以及其他形式的宣導如果單獨只有兩個字的時候它的包含的範圍很廣第一個那如果你把教育及宣導的時候就是它跟原本的教育意思是一樣要加成及宣導也沒有關係那等一下第四條是不是我們就直接講課程連教育宣導這四個字都不可以入列 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
25207.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
25218.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
而那等下第四條我們再討論對可是那如果這樣的話我們這邊就寫防制教育就OK嗎是它涵蓋的面向課程非正式課程潛在課程宣導都涵括在內以上報告好謝謝來接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
25223.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
25250.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
是,報告到大院,這個有關數位發展部針對第十款的部分做一個回應那剛剛委員有提到說有關第十款的技術資源要改為協助限制接取那限制限制接取的部分剛剛主席在八條之一的第七項已經有做過處理依照那個條文來做處理所以那個限制接取的協助部分已經有一個完整條文那另外一個就是說針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
25254.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
25270.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
遊戲軟體分級管理的部分,這個部分文字我們是沒有意見,但是負責跟產業溝通的數位產業所,因為有一些業界的反應意見,是不是適合在這個地方跟大院做一個說明?那這個部分我們產業所的所謂的軟體的分級部分。 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
25271.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
25281.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
是不是可以跟委員做一個報告表達一下產業界的意見主席還有各位委員本部數位產業署針對遊戲軟體分解的部分因為產業有一些反應我們簡單說明一下就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
25287.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
25314.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
而第一個遊戲軟體分級管理的是依照兒少福利權益保障法44條第三項現在已經在執行的一個措施但是如果現在把它放到所謂的兒少性剝削條例的話呢產業是有點擔心說因為其實遊戲大部分都是以虛擬或二次元創作為主那其實他們擔心說如果放在這邊的話會不會讓他們覺得說好像這個是遊戲軟體是導致性剝削的一個主要的管道或原因這是他們比較擔心的部分所以我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
25315.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
25325.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
或許可以考慮回到《兒少權益保障法》第3項處理,而不要放在性剝削條例裡面。以上說明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
25329.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
25330.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
通訊傳播主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
25347.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
25347.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
25377.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
25377.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
25380.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
25407.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
好來接下來還有哪個部會要發言跟主席跟委員報告有關這個法務主管機關這一項那個委員有提到說希望能夠把徒刑執行期間治療及其他相關事宜列進來那請委員跟委員報告請委員參考我們本條例的第五十一條第二項這個前項輔導教育的執行主管機關得協調矯正機關與犯罪行為人服刑期間辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
25408.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
25433.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
但是矯正機關應提供場地及必要的協助所以矯正機關的專業跟他們的執掌其實可能只有辦法提供場地跟必要協助至於這個治療跟其他相關事宜可能還是得衛福部提供這個專業的這個治療計畫或者是什麼我們是配合提供場地來協助以上好還有哪個部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
25437.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
25437.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
移民主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
25466.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
25472.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
沒有問題?不在?文化主管機關有來嗎?也沒來。經濟主管機關有來嗎?也沒有來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
25484.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
25514.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
那這個衛部部都有給相關主管機關看過這個法條嗎?他們有意見嗎?沒有?授權給你們?因為這個是林委員的提案那內容大致上是所在兒少性剝但是他的立法例我們參考性侵害犯罪防止法跟家庭暴力防止法好那就是這個部分你們也再給相關部會再確認一次好不好我們先保留原則上就是這樣的方向內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
25514.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
25515.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
議員主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
25536.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
25559.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
好 跟召集人及各位委員報告第四條的部分早上召集人有特別說明這個兒少性剝削防制教育是多麼的重要那我也深刻體認而且認同這件事情真的非常重要必須讓兒少從小認識同時教職員工以及家長也可能都需要做加強的宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
25560.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
25588.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
所以我們非常認同那原本現行條文是說高級中等以下學校每學年應辦理兒少性剝削防制教育課程或教育宣導現行條文那我們也覺得要提高重視的程度有可能需要把每學年改成每學期來增加的頻率那至於兩小時的這個部分它等於在法律裡頭訂定課程的時數下限 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
25589.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
25601.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
我們有態度上比較謹慎一點點也進一步做盤點現行的各項法律裡頭對於課程有訂定時數下限的包含家庭教育法 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
25603.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
25625.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
環境教育法、性別平等教育法,這三部主要的教育法令都有訂定時數下限。另外,跟性侵害犯罪防治法還有淹害防治法,裡頭也都有針對課程時數下限的,說錯了,不是淹害防治法,是家庭暴力防治法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
25626.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
25651.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
那也有部分的法律是有訂定要納入課程但沒有明定時數下限像剛才講的煙害防治法、學校衛生法以及本法性剝削防制條例那我們的考慮是在現場的反應裡頭對於在法律條文當中明定時數會造成學校以及老師在安排課程上會造成課程的割裂並不容易統整做教學 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
25652.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
25666.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
以性犯罪防制條例防制教育跟性剝削防制教育來說兩個其實對於身體自主權的尊重以及自我保護的那一塊其實有高度的共通性 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
25668.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
25685.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
僅針對性剝削有特殊的犯罪的形態或者如何預防可能有些不同的做法可能是需要再加強的但如果明定時數就會造成課程的割裂會造成現場的困擾所以我們的建議是我們的優先建議是如果能不明定時數是不明定比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
25689.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
25715.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
但尊重委員會的討論如果委員會建議要加至少兩小時那我們會希望是不要僅限於課程而是把現行條文的或教育宣導也能保留這個對於課程的實施或者活動的實施來講會多一點點的彈性那同時我們也建議在立法的說明裡頭增列相關的文字因為現行的性別平等教育法有規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
25717.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
25717.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
議員黃捷等 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
25746.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
25751.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
25770.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
25785.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條條文修正草案案。閱讀委員林岱樺等20人� |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
25798.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
25809.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
就是幼兒園應對、教保相關人員、實施兒童及少年性剝削防制教育及宣導以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
25810.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
25837.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
好 來 請委員表示意見至於時數要不要 等一下也看其他委員意見不過我認為是把幾個字拿掉或教育宣導我覺得還是要訂課程對學生要執行那更何況如果是學生需要的話那教保人員就更不應該用宣導這兩個字所以還是一樣要執行所謂的實施兒童及少年性剝削防制課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
25838.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
25843.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
25863.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
25876.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
兩併前後整併是不是文字修正然後能夠把它都不管是老師跟學生都要接受以上好還有沒有其他委員有意見好來范雲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
25877.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
25894.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
針對時數的部分我還是覺得把至少兩小時放進去比較好啦因為現在性別平等教育法是那個四小時嘛那這邊就是說能夠有一個至少兩小時喔而且你們那個四小時已經被你們融入到不同的東西裡面了 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
25896.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
25916.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
是嗎?因為我們聽到的是融入了。那那個部分我們先不討論,我覺得這邊至少兩小時。因為主要是數位性犯罪真的非常的嚴重,對青少年的教育很重要。那所以我也蠻同意剛剛岳勤委員的,是不是不要把宣導放進來。你剛剛意思是說把防制課程在裡面,會比較真的能夠教育到。 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
25917.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
25937.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
那幼兒園只教教保人員我會有點點擔心啦就是說當然那個教材應該也要包含就是說性別角色身體界線那可是就是說你如果只有教教保人員可是現在那個兒少犯罪的程度是越來越小欸那原本的委員的意思應該是針對那個兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
25940.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
25948.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
所以,教保委員本來就有很多的課,我們之前不是在教保條例的時候修過了嗎?那這邊是不是還是能夠回到那個幼兒園本身?好,那還有沒有其他委員針對第四條有意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
25958.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
25962.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
25980.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
25995.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
而並不是能夠深植人心或是實際上有防範的一個方法而是只是不斷的放上標語這樣子我就會覺得說就算是200個小時的宣導也都沒有用因為那個跑馬燈一年365天都在跑也沒有用 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
25995.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
26022.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
所以我覺得這個部分應該要制定清楚就是它是一個課程那而且是至少要兩個小時那當然我也希望說不只是孩童幼稚園的孩童還有教保員就剛剛有所提到的包括他裡面的教職人員、董監事都應該去稍微去了解我這是有其必要性好謝謝羅委員那還有沒有其他委員要表示意見跟看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
26023.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
26047.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
好,那如果委員沒有其他意見的話,那個教育部委員還蠻有共識的。第一項的部分或教育宣導幾個字如果拿掉,就是我們剛才提到的在那個教育部在立法的補充說明的部分請委員可以支持我們把它放進去。那這樣我想我們將來還是可以就性別平等教育及性侵害法 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
26048.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
26076.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
犯罪防制教育等等做整合性的課程設計而不是時速疊加這第一個那第二個部分是在第三項有關幼兒園的部分剛剛有提到好像他是不是要擴及到幼兒幼兒之前請大家討論因為早上我聽到委員有一些保留的意見在部裡頭徵詢幼教育學的專家也覺得他在執行上略有困難因為身心發展的其實孩子在這段還懵懂未知其實你很難跟他說得清楚這一塊這第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
26078.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
26095.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
至於是否只針對教保相關人員還是要第三項有關於宣導的部分是針對高中以下學校的教職員工以及幼兒園的教保相關人員我覺得我們原本的教育宣導也是希望範圍不僅止於學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
26096.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
26096.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
閱讀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
26116.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
26136.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
好那當然我們尊重這個專業的一個說法但是我還是有我自己的一個想法可以僅供參考那第一個就是你說小朋友幼兒園的孩子不建議剛剛我們已經有共識就是教保相關人員都可以有這個做教育但是幼兒的部分我覺得他可以用那種 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
26137.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
26145.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
26155.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
26173.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
不可以喔不可以喔可不可以拿陌生人的東西不可以喔甚至有類似這樣子的一個圖畫教材做成的卡通影片或者是卡通圖書所以他並沒有說到整個執行上的一個困難只是加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
26174.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
26188.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
我們在對於孩子的這個身體防範我並不覺得這個執行上會有一定的困難所以我覺得幼童是可以帶入到圖畫圖書的一個方式分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
26189.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
26216.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
好 來 教育部那是不是可以折衷一下是不是可以不進入法條的條文但是在立法說明的時候可以說明幼兒園的階段可以由教保服務人員在教保活動課程設計時建立幼兒的正確的防制觀念就是透過他的幼兒園的一些教保的活動設計可以把這些觀念納入進去但不進入法條的內容 以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
26218.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
26239.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
報告主席我覺得作為一個家長我可以接受這個折衷但至少我們在每一次的討論中都會有所進步我沒有一定要到入法但我更希望說藉由這件事情讓大家能夠認知到那我也希望寫入到說明讓幼兒園可以有培育相關的一個課程讓家長也可以知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
26242.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
26252.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
主席第四條前面講的事實上是學生可是我希望是在第二項的時候應該講第三項去講的應該事實上是幼兒園 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
26257.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
26262.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
26275.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
26277.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
各級學校及幼兒園應對教職員工及教保相關人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
26307.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
26308.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
各級學校及幼兒園教保人員請改成教職員工 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
26335.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
26337.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
應對教職及教保相關人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
26372.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
26398.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
謝謝。好,各級學校、頓浩幼兒園應對教職員工及教保相關人員實施兒童及少年性剝削防制教育及宣導。好,然後前面再往前,就是根據我的版本,要把那個,要把,對,或教育宣導直接拿掉,這是我原來提的版本。好,那請問各位委員,針對這個文字內容有沒有意見?還有意見嗎?好,來,請說。 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
26403.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
26424.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
因為早上也跟委員報告過因為有徵詢過我們教育團體的意見那如果是不是要把它成為教育課程是不是也建立委員這邊或者委員會這邊是不是也跟再跟教育團體或者地方政府再做一個溝通或者徵求他們的意見以上報告不懂因為教育團體是因為我們有問過教育團體他們認為說每學期的兩個小時的 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
26433.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
26458.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
剛剛教育部的代表不是已經講了嗎?給你們再說明的彈性,你們現在的所有的小時裡面去整合相關的課程嗎?而且剛剛委員一再強調啊,現在就是國高中生這個兒少性剝削相關的議題,其實現在是重中之重。這個問題其實還蠻重大的。所以教育部應該要有這樣的一個行政處理能力,不是由本委員會去告訴這些團體,而是 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
26460.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
26461.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
26477.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
26503.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
26504.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
26515.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
好那如果大家沒有意見的話我們就根據剛剛這個現在打出來的文字第四條我們就修正通過好謝謝來接下來第第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
26527.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
26540.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
第五條除了第一項我們把內政主管機關我們剛才跟警政署做了一些討論建議修正為中央警政主管機關那在第二項部分有增加前項的專業訓練之專業人員每年就是剛才前半段委員們在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
26551.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
26556.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
26573.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
26586.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
第三項是為了辦理本法第二條第一項第三款性剝削行為之犯罪偵查所以他這裡只要是涉及到犯罪偵查本來我們就一意志權 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
26586.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
26611.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
26611.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
26636.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
26636.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
26648.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
主管機關定資。因為這部分就跟我們DNA建設的資料,我們都有一套系列的一個儲存管理使用的一個辦法。以上說明。好,針對第五條,請問委員有沒有意見?來,林委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
26659.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
26659.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
26676.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
26696.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
adequate的都可以寫得這麼清楚。我不知道說為什麼在這一點的時候沒辦法寫。另外一個你這樣寫法就會變成只有針對於犯罪偵查可是我們還有一個事實上是被害人影像的一個比對比較希望你們跟衛福部事實上是勾結否則以現在展示做的那個量體很低的時候一旦如果有被 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
26697.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
26697.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
來,警政署。 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
26729.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
26753.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
謝謝委員的意見這部分我們已經大概討論了很多次了那因為譴責的方式不一樣外部有他們專業的影像設計處理那屬於被害人部分那只要是涉及到鑑識去判別人員的部分這部分我們警政署當然職責所在我們一定會去做至於之間的一個合作這部分我們也會繼續來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
26757.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
26786.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
那這樣定起來有什麼難事呢就是說今天就是把名列講清楚以外就是說本來我都覺得兒童事實上是全人不是讓政府可以去做這樣的切割的說這分那邊然後那邊衛福部做的事實上是展示只有少少的幾筆你這事實上有大量的那個影像資料庫的話是可以去進行比對那主要這樣子才可以幫助現場減少掉這些少男少女他們的影像還是存在然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
26787.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
26787.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
bicyC. |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
26801.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
26801.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
26826.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
26842.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
26845.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
26846.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
建制資料庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
26865.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
26866.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
26887.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
26891.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
26909.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
26913.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
26934.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
26947.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
厲似的案件的時候不用再重複可以直接在這資料庫找到那跟衛福部所委託的那是不同樣的一個資料庫的一個系統方式所以是兩個資料庫嗎那衛福部這邊的是什麼資料庫來 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
26951.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
26975.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
我們做的是後端就是他經過犯罪偵防然後進到檢查體系的偵查或者進到審判之後那個影像是確定確定是一個被害人的影像然後他跟我們的縣市會跟法院索取copy出來之後到交給我們的民團 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
26979.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
26979.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
26994.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
27014.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
所以是不是葉玄文講的其實是在為…我覺得不太一樣的是說因為今天展示做的事實上是有一個被害人他知道他被害了所以呢去跟展示講說我有影像然後你這影像然後展示的那個轉成賀詞之後呢去跟合作的網路平台裡邊請他 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
27015.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
27034.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
27034.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
27062.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
假設A他被查獲了一千筆那從中如果對的五百筆H值對出來五百B如果也發生這種狀況去對出這五百筆相同可是有五百筆不相同的時候我們還是希望保留這五百筆H值把它保存下來之後因為今天很多受害人根本不知道他是受害嘛他不知道他廁所被偷拍或者是他的男朋友把他東西丟出來了那未來這些保留的未來假設又有 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
27063.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
27065.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
27088.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
27091.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
27109.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
27111.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
27130.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
27140.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
一切都是沒有效用的那前面我們現在為什麼我堅持第三條、第五條就是因為這些能夠想方設法能夠逮到人比較重要以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
27141.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
27164.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
警政署報告請說明委員的這個資料庫希望能夠有三個功能第一個是犯罪偵查那我們已經把它納進去了然後第二個就是說如果是法院或是檢察官或是其他司法機關有需要的時候也可以這個進入這個資料庫使用相關的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
27165.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
27193.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
這個部分跟委員報告就是說其實依照現行的法令規定以及現行的機制不需要在這個地方特別列明本來就可以使用那第三個就是委員剛剛說的其他項就是最在乎的就是被害人能不能及時下架這件事那跟委員報告就是說如果被害人到警政機關來報案我們同仁會上這個資料庫裡面去比對 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
27195.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
27209.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
如果是之前我們曾經查獲的案件但是不知道被害人是誰的時候當我們這一次被害人來報案我們就會把這個資料再傳給性影像處理中心去做下架的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
27210.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
27230.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
27230.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
27232.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
27247.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
27276.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
如果都認為有錯那那這樣子列又有什麼難處呢既然你也覺得說我們都有錯我就明定清楚就像前面在講第三條的時候也之前一直跟我講說我們平常都有錯我就覺得就是把定清楚有什麼因為我常過去在聽政府常講依法行事那我覺得把它講清楚說明白會是比較好的是讓大家有所本而且這樣子的話也希望你們有專責的人員去處理這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
27277.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
27278.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
法務單位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
27300.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
27305.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
27328.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
27328.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
議員黃捷 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
27352.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
27352.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
第八條早上已經達成共識。 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
27381.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
27404.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
好,那第八條已經達成共識,我們就通過。八之一?八之一也是達成共識。好,八之一條也已經達成共識,那就是通過。翻雲委員他有關。可不可以確定給我們看版本,因為我們不知道,你一直在講通過,我們不知道那個版本到底是什麼。 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
27406.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
27406.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
議員主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
27440.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
27450.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
第八條范雲委員,范雲委員不在,他有特別跟你們溝通,你們有在跟他溝通嗎?他有一個,他自己在爭列一個那個。好,委員回來了。第八條我們早上的才是那個衛福部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
27467.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
27469.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
就是公開揭示之?就是那個衛福部還是覺得沒有辦法嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
27489.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
27494.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
27514.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
27514.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
閱讀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
27531.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
27531.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
議員林岱樺 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
27550.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
27566.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
好我是覺得既然你們認為說比較大型的那些網路平臺都已經有了申訴管道的話那你留在這裡等於是一個希望能夠有但是又沒有法則他一開始並不會處罰到他並沒有不好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
27568.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
27590.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
那鼓勵那些小型的網站也都能夠有一個公開揭示的申訴管道那至少就我們跟第一線的協助受害人的婦女團體的話他有些時候並沒有想要去性向中心做一個完整的報案那他可能在那個時候他沒有那麼急的時候他就可以直接跟那個小的平台反應可能問題就解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
27591.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
27618.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
那既然沒有罰則的話,那你又說大型的都有,那不影響他們,那是不是就能夠把它放在這裡頭呢?我們建議保留,因為沒有跟平台做溝通。那就先保留好了。擔心節外生枝,可能會破壞了整個整體。先保留好了。好,那范議員委員這一個部分的提案先保留。好,來接下來81, |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
27620.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
27621.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
第十五條應該早上討論就是維持原條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
27669.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
27680.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
第十五條就是維持現行條文。第二十八條有修正條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
27689.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
27705.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
二十八條修正通過第三十條保留第三十條後來我們跟廖委員有做溝通原則上委員同意維持現行條文然後另外他有一個附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
27708.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
27710.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
三十條就涉及到刑度及罰金的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
27734.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
27737.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
三十二條以後三二到三五是保留然後三十六 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
27763.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
27793.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
三十九也是保留?三十六、三十八、三十九也是保留?對。這些都涉及到那個徵定那個刑責的部分。好,來。再來。還有沒有通過的?再宣告一下。三十九條也是保留?對,三十九條是保留。四十也是保留。四十也是保留。三十九之一並第三十九份已徵定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
27794.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
27820.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
對。三十九條之一併入三十九條不予增訂。好。四十條也是保留?是。四十條之一也是保留?對。四十條之一是併四十條。對。四十條之一?併四十條。四十條之一是併四十條。 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
27822.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
27848.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
不予增訂。好。四十一條之一保留。四十三條保留。四十四條保留。四十四條之一不予增訂,並四十四條處理。四十五條保留。四十七條照行政院提案修正通過。 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
27850.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
27872.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
五十條維持現行條文不予增訂。五十一條保留。五十一條之一並五十條不予增訂。五十三條保留。五十三條之一維持現行條文。哪一個附帶決議? |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
27882.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
27907.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
第八條有一個附帶決議。這個附帶決議也是行政部門看過了嗎?沒看過。吳佩儀委員林岳勤。這個可能要讓行政單位看一下。行政單位針對附帶決議表示一下意見。這個你們好像沒看過。有沒有問題? |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
27909.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
27910.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
議員主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].start |
27921.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].end |
27925.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].text |
委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].start |
27946.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].end |
27975.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].text |
那就做以下的決議。一、兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案計三十六案審查完略並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論。院會討論本案時由王昭及委員喻明補充說明是否需要交由黨團協商。要。那第二本法條條次及原引條次 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].start |
27976.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].end |
27987.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].text |
獸權議事人員調整。相關立法說明。獸權行政單位提供。三、本次會議議事錄。獸權由主席核定後確定。然後本次會議到此結束。現在散會。謝謝大家。那我會盡快再召開朝野協商。我也再拜託那個法務部跟司法部門法則的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].start |
28006.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].end |
28006.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].text |
拜託大家參與條文審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].start |
28025.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].end |
28041.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].text |
議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].start |
28042.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].end |
28060.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].text |
議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].start |
28063.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].end |
28065.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].text |
來 中間再開一張 最後中間 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].start |
28090.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].end |
28091.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].text |
一、二、三、四…… |