| IVOD_ID |
158612 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158612 |
| 日期 |
2025-01-02 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-15-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-01-02T10:22:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-01-02T10:33:04+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:59 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e536f439a824989fd3f82bf49b3fbaf4a58d75bdfb612c74e0c7ca98e9358032305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
牛煦庭 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:22:05 - 10:33:04 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-01-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、請行政院秘書長率同所屬，就行政院所屬人員涉嫌霸凌案件處置情形專題報告並備質詢。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於大陸委員會單位預算。四、繼續審查大陸委員會函送財團法人海峽交流基金會114年度預算書案。五、繼續審查大陸委員會函送財團法人臺港經濟文化合作策進會114年度預算書案。
備註：本次會議開會時間為上午9時至議程處理完竣） |
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你好很早祕書長早安今天終於見到你了我很高興謝謝這個沒關係我們針對今天的主題我們先來做一下探討今天大家討論的是霸凌案那個案的部分我們就不多說了但是我們要要求的是你的系統性的東西我們要做一個清楚明白的說明在你這個書面報告裡面講就因應這個勞動部的這個不幸的霸凌事件發生之後你做很多的改善措施包含這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.23 |
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這個研討研議強化法治事宜包含提升公務人員的職業安全思考在法治下強化監督檢查等課則機制並且加強提供心理健康支持關懷諮詢啊心理健康資源啊友善觀念宣導等等還有比較重要而且是大部分人比較關切的其實是所謂的院程級的職場霸凌案件通報平台在12月13號上路對不對我目前講的沒有錯吧這都是你的書面報告裡面的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
56.267 |
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集中在這個職場霸凌通報平台裡面講說三天之內就要回覆初步受理情形一個月之內要給社會大眾一個清楚明白的交代對不對這是當初我想這是卓院長開出的軍令狀當然就應該來做執行現在有這個單一窗口可以提出申訴但是本席今天在質詢的時候要強調的是說除了被霸凌者的主動通報之外 |
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78.934 |
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其他的改善措施我們先從主動通報這件事情來討論一下12月13號你這個通報平台上路之後總共受理了多少件處理的結果如何 |
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92.103 |
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110.294 |
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這段時間很短沒關係是是是他有彙整啦因為有些人一案多報或是其他資料來源彙整完以後現在大概有一百二十幾個案子有二十幾個案子一百二十幾個案子一百二十幾個案子你的底多在三天之內回報初步處理結果嗎他們處理就是說要不要立案 |
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要不要立案什麼意思因為有一些是匿名有一些是市政怎樣就是如果是如果它是具名一定是立案但是有很多才是匿名那匿名的話就要沒關係具名現在立案有幾件 |
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126.941 |
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現在巨名的就是120幾件巨名的120幾件 非常好按照你當初的軍令狀一個月之內要回報處理結果這個120幾案有沒有必要跟社會大眾做一個說明也展現一下你這個平台的執行成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
142.587 |
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170.142 |
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因為十二月十三開始然後一百多件差不多了因為他這個調查的過程基本上他內容是屬於各自的部分屬於密件那我們會就是人種的部分會持續的監督就是說回報處理的結果持續的監督回報處理結果對對對那我們會定期的對外來說一些公佈好你第一次打算對外做一次總體的公佈去展現這個平台處理成效的時間預計是什麼什麼時候 |
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172.078 |
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這個我可能要跟人總討論一下又要討論這樣是不是有點可惜因為他的行政罪我必須還是得要好沒關係至少今天在委員會答詢的時候有很有意義的數字叫一百二十幾件的具名已經立案的案件這我要提醒祕書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
188.078 |
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206.618 |
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我要提醒秘書長就是說這個東西不是說你內部調查調查完然後照你這個立案然後就把它結了就算了那這樣本質上這整件事情還是在這個從社會大眾的角度來看它還是屬於一個黑箱的狀況嘛因為你怎麼處理的你到最後怎麼樣你也不見得有一個對外說明的機制我現在講的這個事情已經不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
207.259 |
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按照過去公部門處理的流程或什麼可以讓社會大眾幸福的所以你現在這個報應平台有成立你就要有一個定期對外的說明機制你要不要針對這個對外的說明機制你們現在針對這個事情的SOP也好時間表也好你們是怎麼抓的要不要說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
224.345 |
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235.271 |
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報告委員我想這個部分因為我剛才特別提到怎麼樣對外說明這個部分我們還是要跟人種這邊做一些討論那剛剛講那實際的調查的狀況我們是有是有在follow你 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
240.453 |
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258.556 |
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我的意思是說我當然給你一點時間給你一點空間是沒有問題但是這個對外說明的機制要非常的清楚這件事情要稍微公開透明不能再用黑箱的方式處理這是本席的第一個提醒主動通報到底有多少成效我們來追蹤第二個我要再問秘書長你覺得真的整個公部門你這麼大一部國家紀真的只有120案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
259.995 |
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281.627 |
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報告委員我剛才說明了這個120幾個案子不是行政院所屬機關因為它還包括了地方政府當然啦現在中央的部分大概是50幾案地方政府大概30幾案我現在問你是說你現在這是有通報的嘛以你在官場的這樣的經驗你真的覺得大家因為有這個平台就通通會通報嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
283.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
310.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
應該不會吧我們是鼓勵啦鼓勵嘛對不對你也只能講鼓勵對不對那不敢通報的狀況你怎麼處理你覺得這個會不會是所謂的冰山一角一百二十案敢通報其實下面一千多案不敢通報本席還是認為非常高的可能是這樣所以除了你這個平台的處理機制之外不能只有這個平台我們剛剛看到你的各項策進措施裡面本席覺得比較有待嘉獎或者是有待討論的地方是如何辨識職場霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
311.621 |
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336.02 |
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如何讓大家從不敢通報然後變成說比較敢講出自己的委屈讓公部門的文化來做一個改變這本席提供你幾個建議啦這曾經在考試院的質詢的時候本席也提過辨別職場霸凌的情況也就是說你從領導這個國家機器這個角度來看第一這些單位不管他是中央政府的部會還是地方政府的特殊單位那個單位的離職率啊調職率啊有沒有異常的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
336.781 |
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361.571 |
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你看看當初的勞發署他是不是離職率非常異常當然我們這是事後爆發悲劇之後大家回頭去看才發現但他山之石嘛既然有這樣的案例是不是要做一個通盤的檢討第二烤雞的部分是很重要的啊我現在很擔心啊這公部門之所以會霸凌然後大家敢怒不敢言或者是有委屈往肚子裡吞那就是因為烤雞抓在長官手上萬一有像謝怡榮這種擅長向上經營的這種人 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
363.852 |
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385.084 |
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那壓力是很大的烤雞的部分要不要透明一點有沒有一個改善的機制那第三才是說個別公務員的工作量啊效率等等的情況這就比較細節了但是大多數這樣的一個精進措施你們現在行政院裡面有沒有討論也就是說在平台主動通報沒有辦法觸及到或者是沒有辦法改善的文化的部分識別的部分你們有什麼加強的措施 |
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387.634 |
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414.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
事實上人事總署他有您剛才提到的比如說離職率比較高的部分或怎樣人總如果發生這樣的狀況會讓這個所屬機關讓他理解說我們有注意到你們這邊離職率是比較高但是我跟委員報告離職率比較高不一定就是跟霸凌有同等關係當然有可能是泄漢這也值得關注有可能是很多的員工被挖角 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
415.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
422.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
因為他這個單位事實上他的員工非常非常優秀所以到處被挖走了所以當然你整個這麼多的部會這麼多的機關我們剛剛講的是特殊狀況嘛你看你如果講說過去有這個狀況勞發署的狀況你們有發現嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
431.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
453.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那個離職率非常高的狀況有發現嗎?人總有發現嗎?這個我要跟人總...你要再確認一下對不對?所以這個本來就是應該要列入督導的對象那我就要問啊如果說你這個行政機關除了讓他主動通報之外你還要主動掌握對不對?那你現在在主動掌握徹底了解這樣狀況的時候是由誰來追蹤?是由哪一個比如說政務委員嗎?或是誰來做督導?你們現在有沒有討論這件事情? |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
453.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
473.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
現在的追蹤機制就是人事總署因為它是人事是一條邊的所以它等於是所有的人事的體系裡面它是一個最頭所以基本上現在就是由人事行政總署來督導對不對然後把這些東西來做執行那你什麼時候可以提供一個我們剛剛講我想秘書長應該不會反對啊這個調職率離職率特殊狀況主義拿出來討論的你總有一些數據的收集吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
478.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
485.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你覺得應不應該做一下掌握應該要掌握對不對好我給你一點時間但你什麼時候可以把這樣子的一個報告交出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
486.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
510.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
就是說所謂的我姑且稱之為霸凌高風險或者是說職場相對不友善這個名字怎麼舉我沒有意見但是這樣一個機制要出來人事行政總隊來做OK那你什麼時候可以提出一個初步的報告可以可以但是我跟委員報告我們會有附註說明就是說經過了解以後離職率比較高他跟霸凌事實上還是不太一樣你跟我講什麼時候有報告就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
511.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
533.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那給我們現在是現在是1月嘛是不是給我們一個月或兩個月的時間好我給你我給你兩個月啦好這個事情我們長期追蹤好但是這兩個月你不只要把這個東西交代出來也就是你的主動追查進度第二個你那個相關的平台的後續處遇啊你要怎麼跟社會擔當來說明啊你要一併把它想越清楚好不好好對不起主席我再用30秒這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
535.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
544.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個我本來期待前幾天在財政委員會就要問你這個事大家現在在講預算要刪28%我們下午要審你們的預算我們是要統統剪裂28%嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
545.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
569.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
沒有啦沒有因為我上次問你的副秘書長啦我問他說這是不是行政院統一的命令因為他們一直在發圖卡啊然後我問他說是不是在簡歷28他沒有說不要不要我問他說這是不是行政院的命令然後副秘書長的回答還蠻經典的他說應該不是然後他說就我所知不是後來變就我所掌握的資料不是他不是領頭我不能為難他但你是秘書長到底是或不是啊你們有沒有下這個令啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
570.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
580.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
沒有沒有要重編沒有要重編對不對也沒有要產28%對不對沒有嘛沒有喔明年的部分沒有明年的部分沒有但是明年的部分沒有嘛對不對那我問你為什麼內政部又跑出來又講要產28% |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
583.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
610.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
因為在我們那個質詢結束之後 第二天內政部就上車了啊沒有 現在如果照牙列車翻車了 他又上車了怎麼辦如果按照現在 我媒體上看到了如果說現在的這個財務法會等到後面才送過來的話那我們可能就明年的部分就按照明年現在來處理你趕快對外做一個說明現在我那天答詢的時候 副秘書長那個給人家的結論是感覺各部位各搞各的各行其事那你行政院到底有沒有在領導啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
611.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
624.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
如果你講這是你下的令那也就算了各部位只是說明說財務法長期以來可能會造成影響那萬一最後啊萬一最後它不是針對明年萬一最後不是這樣的時候那是不是變造謠政府機關代表照是不對的啊民主黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
625.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
649.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以你趕快趁這個事還沒有成案落定之前趕快做同意澄清說明因為當初我們不清楚就是說財務法到底什麼時候會送到我們行政院來什麼時候會公佈實施那個時間點可能會...反正你很確定行政院沒有下這個令也沒有3288的問題嘛對不對明年的預算你還是希望我們支持預算嘛對不對對那你趕快說明啦不要再讓部會這邊上那個造謠列車的好不好這個監管的力道要稍微加強謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
651.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
652.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那個應該是指14吧因為今天已經是是是是好謝謝 |