| IVOD_ID |
15853 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15853 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024041982 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-26T12:43:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-26T13:17:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:33:55 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685fa1ac688bbc35fc7bde4c3ff035b60ab3be8d109af184be463f15049877ceea55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-26T13:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於彰化縣為農業大縣，惟經濟部規劃於彰濱工業區興建晶鼎焚化爐，引發在地居民強烈抗爭，憂慮環境污染傷害人體健康、更影響乳牛飼養及優質農漁產品產量。且彰化縣目前已有九座焚化爐，密度居全國之冠，如若再興建一座焚化廠，整體環境恐嚴重超出負荷、加重當地污染。爰建請院會作成決議：「113年1月5日林佳龍出席彰化縣百工百業信賴總會成立授旗大會曾表示：有關興建晶鼎焚化爐相關新聞是『抹黑，是確定不會蓋的。』行政院副院長鄭文燦亦曾公開承諾彰化晶鼎焚化爐不會蓋、會朝解除契約方向走，如今興建案再起，顯見民進黨高層輕諾寡信、背棄人民。爰要求民進黨執政的行政院履行政治承諾，立即停止在彰濱工業區興建晶鼎焚化爐。」是否有當？請公決案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:43:05 - 13:17:00 |
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未來幾年燃料繼續上漲我們的電價可能的狀況我們都必須要先預判而且要給人民一個解釋我們不能只是說日本韓國漲那麼多他們的狀況跟我們一樣嗎也許每個國家都在漲因為燃料在漲沒有錯但是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
20.114 |
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如果可能的話我們可以做到不用漲但是我們也可以讓人民可以在他的物價上面可以做些安心我覺得還是一個回到一個檢討報告的重要性所以今天不是單單討論要不要調漲我們希望經濟部能夠提出這些相關的報告以上好 非常感謝黃珊珊委員孟改兄有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
49.384 |
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69.861 |
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謝謝我想國民黨團今天代表出席今天這個協調會我再一次強調錯誤的能源政策比貪污更可怕如果錯誤的能源政策不調整的話我們換一百位總經理巧婦難為無名之炊都沒有辦法讓台電穩定供電並且有合理的電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
70.982 |
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96.831 |
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我們從頭到尾沒有怪過臺電的基層工作人員我們也都知道我們來自地方我們來自選區我們每一個地方的基層公務同仁臺電的員工都非常辛苦我們都理解這也都是我們的家人朋友但是上位者執政者有沒有真真正正的把所有能源現在面對的問題都徹底做一個釐清這個才是關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
99.632 |
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119.999 |
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剛剛官方代表一直有講是說尊重審議委員會真的有尊重嗎?我們過去這幾年每每都看到在選舉前審議委員會就會有所謂的動漲的策略即便是國際原油物價大漲國際原油在2021年來到新高點選前就是可以不漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
120.919 |
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141.113 |
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選後就會做調整這真的有反映真實的成本跟審議委員會的專業嗎再者2021年國際原油以及相關的原物料是達到最高峰但是到了今年2024年我們其實已經看到了國際原油以及相關的燃料的價格是 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
142.014 |
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164.391 |
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回復到過去的水準以及甚至趨勢是有往下的現在在做一個最大規模最大比例的一個調漲所謂荷蘭所以我們一直要溝通的是能不能開誠布公的跟國人大家好好的講清楚台灣現在面臨到能源是什麼樣的一個問題以及大家來做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
165.552 |
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181.247 |
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沒有錯每個人都要用電我們也都希望能夠有合理穩定的電價以及我們也都希望有一個穩定的供電所以能源是選擇不是政治意識形態不應該變成政客拿來鬥爭的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
183.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
199.875 |
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臺電、經濟部在這一個立場上面才更應該發揮專業所以這也是為什麼國民黨團在這個禮拜三4月24號我們也有一個相似的提案也召開了朝野協商也感謝民眾黨團出席 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
202.281 |
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225.361 |
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台電跟行政部門以及國民黨民眾黨團在禮拜三的中午也有召開朝野協商但我們非常遺憾的是當天也沒有結論因為執政的民進黨黨團沒有派任何代表來我想今天可能民進黨黨團的這個位置又要空缺在這邊了所以可能這個協商也沒有辦法有任何結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
226.482 |
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247.938 |
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但我們要問如果說這個是一個新的國會、新的民意、新的展現的話民進黨黨團到目前為止每一次不管是國民黨黨團、不管是民眾黨黨團所召開的協商全部都選擇神隱不出席到底是尊重民意還是踐踏民意我想這一點社會自有公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
248.658 |
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260.469 |
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所以簡單的講我們支持我們也希望臺電真的好好的思考以及經濟部應該針對我們臺灣整體能源政策來做一個徹底的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
262.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
286.434 |
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最後4月1號不要以為說電價已經漲了所以反正投過身就過我要敬告大家的是4月1號的電價調漲會在未來的兩個月才是真真正正反映到一般商家一般民間以及一般普羅大眾百姓的成本上因為台電是兩個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
288.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
307.431 |
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提供一次電價的帳單而未來的兩個月才會讓全國國人真真正正面臨到電價調漲之後有感的成本上升而造成整體的物價的通貨膨脹所以這一些都是國人要面臨到的問題我想這絕對不是現在以為 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
308.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
326.191 |
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4月1號過了就投過生就過的一個狀況所以我們支持這個案子我們也感謝在禮拜三朝野協商的時候民眾黨團有支持本黨團的案子那我們希望未來民進黨黨團也不要再閃躲好好的面對民意直球對決謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
329.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
357.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
非常謝謝侯孟楷委員那因為到目前為止民主進步黨還沒有任何的代表前來這個協商那不過我想今天既然我們的經濟部都次長親自出席了台電的總經理也出席了那我當然不希望因為下一場協商我們表定的時間是一點的時候開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
359.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
364.829 |
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我相信我們還是本與最大的善意希望在一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
365.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
392.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
在一點第二場協商開始以前第一場協商終結以前民主進步黨能夠由黨團的代表來參與到底他們對於有關於要求在向經濟委員會提出全面的檢討報告之前必須要先緩漲民主進步黨黨團他們所抱持的政策立場到底是什麼能夠來參與這一場協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
396.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
417.223 |
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不過我想也不要讓官員在因為下一場協商是一點嘛那大家中間難得有機會坐在同一個會議室裡面針對這麼重要的議題來討論我們也不要浪費時間因為我知道大家的時間其實都蠻寶貴的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
419.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
445.3 |
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那相關的議題我覺得利用這個機會行政部門跟黨團的代表能夠彼此交換意見我覺得這也是民主精神的展現也是責任政治的實現所以不曉得對於剛剛民眾黨黨團跟國民黨黨團所發表的看法經濟部這邊的代表或者是台電的總經理有沒有什麼要補充說明的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
448.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
460.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
謝謝主席我想先做說明剛才那個我想黃岳偉提到一個事情就是我們其實還是需要把那個成本控制好重點會是這一個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
461.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
483.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那我想說接下來不管是因為其實在立法院過程裡面臺電的預算大概每年都要送進來會送進來一次那過去我們的審查都比較集中在一些焦點式的議題比方說像燃煤的預算金額不能夠增加等等都會是在這一些議題上面那另外一個就是預算執行率這個是比較長的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
484.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
500.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那其實各種燃料的結構的一些價格其實在預算審查當然沒有那麼多的機會可以說得很清楚因為時間有限不過其實這一次包括電價的審查如果就是立法院對於我們整個台電運轉就是在成本這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
501.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
526.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
有什麼樣的一些細節的問題我都覺得說這個本來就是台電是國營事業就是要說清楚那我們其實這段時間也自己在自我整理包含就是像我們的燃煤採購的方式到底是什麼樣的方式那因為有的時候討論很簡化其實常常講說是長約啊跟現貨其實我們的長約就有非常多的約它是一個bundle裡面有非常多的合約組合起來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
527.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
549.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那它主要的價格都是其實台電的採購策略是平準精神就是大幅上漲的時候它不要漲那麼多下跌的時候也會跌得比人家慢有這樣子的狀況那日本跟澳洲大概也是採取這樣子的一個方式因為我擔心今天佔用太多時間或是各位委員有細節想要問我我可以回答的我儘量回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
550.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
562.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
不過無論如何有一件事情我是同意的就是我們也會願意做就是我們願意把我們的成本就是攤開給大家知道我們是用什麼樣方法在做然後我們整個能源結構的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
565.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
582.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
包含這幾年電力的投資非常多因為我們要增加電網認証要新增電源然後舊的電廠除役所以包含折舊的支出都會比較多在財務上、會計上合理的東西我們都必須一一跟立法院做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
583.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
609.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那這些其實是一塊一塊要拆出來跟各位做報告但我覺得只要有時間我們就會一個一個來一個一個來做說明要做的不夠好的我們一定會改正的這個事情沒有什麼其他的理由好講那只是說因為只是這個波動非常的大全世界這個波動非常的大的讓大家都沒有時間好看這些細節那但是我們又面臨的需要調漲的這樣子的一個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
611.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
639.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那簡單來講我們是把採取的一個策略就是把那個波動跟原來的評準一樣我們把那個價格波動的時間拉的比較長了一點那我覺得這一個問題我們需要可能要做一些討論那當然大家說什麼時候來反應電價是一個最好的方法因為油價是波動的油價是波動的那電價如果波動是不是一個就是浮動的電價是不是一個好的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
640.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
662.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那這個我覺得大家還是做討論因為最近媒體也有很多學者投書就說臺電合法把這個電價比照油價讓它開始變浮動可是浮動對於我們的民生或是業界尤其是做生產決策會不會是一個最好的這個我想會有不同的想法跟思考所以我覺得這一題是真的有必要我也覺得臺灣要趕快把這個問題理得更清楚讓這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
669.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
684.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
確定了一個軌道以後我們還有很多工作可以一起推動那我覺得這一個部分我們是是沒有問題就是只要立法院排會或要我們來做報告我們就一一的來向委員做報告這個我們完全會遵照立法院的決議來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
687.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
702.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
非常謝謝次長剛剛次長講到一個蠻關鍵的重點我個人是很認同的就台電在計價的時候不管是你們的計價的公式那以及在公式裡面的每一個參數 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
704.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
724.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那一個參數數字它的基礎的資料相關的資料其實我覺得不管是從經濟部還是從台電的觀點能夠把完整的資料送給各個黨團甚至各個委員我相信這會是一個理性討論的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
728.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
741.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所以這些資料今天我們還有五分鐘民進黨到底會不會來到目前為止我也不要先做任何的預設只不過說這些基礎的資料我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
742.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
769.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
要讓整個公民社會、整個國會的監督的討論能夠更透明、更健全是不是就請剛剛次長所提的那些相關的資料其實都可以先送給各個委員、各個黨團我們在討論起來的時候其實會更有基礎我相信這應該沒有什麼問題不過剛好利用這個時間我也想要請教一下因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
771.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
791.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我們在針對整體的電力政策在進行討論的時候反映到最後用戶端當然是電價漲不漲但是我們在關心的不是只有那個電費計的方式還有包括你一開始的能源政策整個發電的配比 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
792.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
807.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
以及我們在進行能源政策跟發電配比當中．到目前為止所出現．讓社會大眾沒有辦法接受的事情我具體的說以今天來講今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
809.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
826.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
立昂集團在台南七股五天的暗場就五個天字背的暗場今天是以貪污治罪條例起訴了立昂集團的董事長谷勝輝也起訴了台南市經發局的局長陳凱琳 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
828.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
842.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
但我看了檢察官的起訴書讓我非常的震驚震驚的理由是竟然有經濟部能源局光電組的組長林文信他也被起訴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
843.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
869.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
在寫入書裡面有非常具體的指責當初谷聖輝明明就不符合小二甲的要件是怎麼樣跑去經濟部能源局在靈文性的協助之下跟台南市經發局去施壓華為則也有參與會議地方政府的事情台南市政府自己說清楚但 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
870.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
896.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
作為一個立委我對於經濟部能源局太陽光電組的組長林文信今天遭到貪污治罪條例、圖利罪起訴我必須要很沉痛的跟經濟部的代表表達我的震驚跟失望在檢察官的起訴書當中經濟部能源局的官員是怎麼配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
898.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
909.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
不肖的業者、立洋的集團鼓聲揮去用違法的方式用偽造的文件來去迴避小二甲的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
910.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
935.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
而這整件事情經濟部能源局的官員全部都參與所以他今天才被起訴了嘛那我的問題就很直接囉接下來對於經濟部來講當初騙到手的電業籌設許可要不要撤銷這件事情經濟部打算要怎麼處理是不是在還有空的時候可以順便請市長跟大家說明一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
940.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
953.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
雖然這個是今天發生的新聞事件但是我想跟主席說明第一件就是說有關於能源局同仁被起訴的事情我想說如果是放在司法的環節裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
956.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
980.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
現在要去證明的就是這一些檢察官起訴的內容是不是真的讓我們同仁構成違法事實到目前為止推定無罪這件事情在三權分立的國家我想這一個是確認的至於第二個部分我想電酬電酬的過程如果涉及不法確認坦白講這個電酬就沒有存在的合理基礎該撤銷的我們一定會撤銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
988.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1014.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
謝謝次長的說明我也再跟次長說明一下行事上面的不法跟行政上面的不法是兩個完全不同的概念我們當然是接受無罪推定原則不過也要請經濟部的官員可以認知到無罪推定原則是在行事訴訟的領域裡面所適用的法則跟我剛剛所請教的行政不法那是兩個完全不同的領域 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1014.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1041.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那按照剛剛次長的說明是要等到三省定業了以後經濟部才會啟動針對行政不法的部分當初這個電酬許可是如何透過偽造的文件是如何透過不法的程序所拿到的才要開始啟動嗎還是目前的行政調查程序現在其實就應該要開始處理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1041.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1053.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我覺得這個可能是我們在討論當代法治國家的時候把刑事不法跟行政不法把它區別清楚一個非常重要的討論基礎關於這幾個案子的行政流程的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1066.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1083.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那能源署這邊甚至經濟部也應該到能源署能源署把這整個流程瞭解清楚是哪些流程事實上在程序上面是不符合規定的我想這一個部分我們會開始啟動馬上來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1086.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1113.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
這是第一點第二點是我想其實我也跟委員說明我想經營部不做立法院也會問這一題其實這一件事情本來我們就是要把這個事情清清楚楚的交代到底現在檢察官起訴的內容牽涉的環節是什麼東西在行政的分工上屬經濟部所主管的內容是什麼那執行的程序如何有哪些過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1114.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1132.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
有誰參與那我想說把這些東西理清楚那我們行政機關有我們的調查方式我們可能會從過去開會的各種會議記錄來找那我們會儘量的就我們在行政調查的部分可以調查的部分我們一定會先來理清 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1134.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1156.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
非常謝謝次長次長最起碼我們今天的協商雖然民主進步黨沒有派代表來但我們還是對整個社會有所注意剛剛次長已經表明了針對今天所發生的這樣子一個案子次長也表明了說經濟部會立刻的啟動行政調查然後去查相關的環節 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1157.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1186.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那我倒是給經濟部的同一個建議檢察官的起訴書對於經濟部能源局的官員到底是怎麼樣透過不法的方式去圖利的讓谷昇輝他們可以拿到非法的這個電酬許可這件事情有相當具體的指責那看完了起訴書以後檢察官的起訴是不是都有證據支持行政上面應該要怎麼處理我相信會是一個行政調查非常好的起點 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1187.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1215.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
今天因為民主進步黨黨團沒有代表出席因此我們本案保留送請院長協商謝謝 散會第二場怎麼樣不用啊 他們要訪就進來就好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1216.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1234.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
對啊你就請他們進來就好啦他們如果要我出去的話就請他們稍等 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1245.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1269.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我會出去受訪,等我把協商做完好嗎?可以嗎?再半個小時?第二場行政同仁是你嗎?我們是會員好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1282.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1296.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那個第二場的那個第二場的要列席的行政官員如果到了都可以請他們先就座我們趕快先開始因為表定是一點鐘要開始嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1307.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1327.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
主席主席主席抱歉是是不是可以請工作同仁問一下到底民進黨有沒有聯繫電話他們有沒有要來如果沒有要來的話我想我們也不用再是是是是是好那個我理解那個孟雅委員第二場協商齁我速度會加快好好謝謝因為我想我們既然 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1327.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1340.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
尊重這個民眾黨團然後我們也12點半到1點兩場我想你安排的時候應該都也都希望是說大家能夠一起把這個時間留在那如果說民進黨團不願意出席那我們也沒有必要留在陪他們聯繫了好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1343.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1358.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
謝謝孟凱委員那個黨團的同仁啦事事聯絡一下就是確定一下民進黨黨團要不要派代表來因為我很怕我們到時候人先解散了他會怪我們沒有等他們我們先確認一下好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1379.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1392.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
你們準備好了嗎準備好了那個要來的行政官員是不是都到了你們準備好了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1405.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1428.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
好,非常感謝我們第二場的協商會議就開始了今天要協商的是本院台灣民眾黨黨團有鑑於彰化縣為農業大縣．惟經濟部規劃於彰濱工業區興建晶鼎焚化爐．引發在地居民強烈抗爭．擔心環境污染傷害人體健康．更影響乳牛飼養及優質農產 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1430.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1430.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
污染，原建請院會作成決議。 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1447.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1467.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
113年1月5日﹐林佳龍出席彰化縣百工百業信賴總會﹐成立受期大會曾表示﹐有關興建晶鼎焚化爐相關新聞是抹黑﹐是確定不會蓋的。行政院副院長鄭文燦﹐也曾公開承諾彰化晶鼎焚化爐不會蓋﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1468.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1485.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
．會朝解約的方向走．如今新建案再起．顯見民進黨高層侵落寡性．背棄人民．原要求民進黨執政的行政院履行政治承諾．立即停止在彰濱工業區興建晶鼎焚化爐． |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1486.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1501.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那現在介紹在場的委員台灣民眾黨的黨團代表黃珊珊委員以及中國國民黨的黨團代表侯孟楷委員我們現在請相關的部會所長表示意見首先先請環境部的嚴署長請嚴署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1509.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1515.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
環境部這裡先做報告有關金庭案目前他的狀態是這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1519.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1541.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
他的狀態是要在開工之前要辦理公開說明會那他上一次辦公開說明會的時候因為程序有瑕疵經本署判定他那個公開說明會無效那後續的效果是如果他要施工的話仍然需補辦公開說明會程序以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1545.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1549.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
不曉得在座兩位委員有沒有什麼要補充的意見來請珊珊 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1552.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1578.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這個案子是台灣民眾黨所提的提案因為這個案子已經在當地產生了非常多民眾來抗爭也來陳情那事實上這個案子很清楚的在選前行政院的副院長鄭文燦直接承諾不會改而且會朝解約方向處理那現在看起來就是他會繼續往程序的方向走會造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1579.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1604.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這些公務人員尤其是政府高官到地方去承諾的事項可能就是將來的變成是輕諾寡言最重要是寡信對於人民、對於政府的威信是有非常嚴重的衝擊第二個很清楚的是他在這個焚化廠、焚化爐的過程裡面講得非常清楚甚至包括林佳龍也 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1605.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1628.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
接下去他可能也是重要的部會首長他也在現場說確定是不會蓋的這兩件事情都必須要跟民眾交代那最嚴重的就是說環境部在這邊要捍衛的是環境但是不應該成為所謂不管是廠商也好或者是利益團體他們的背書或附庸 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1628.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1651.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
所以舊環境部的立場．它不是只是開一個說明會．而是要真實的去反映這個．對地方．對地方的衝擊還有負荷那彰化縣現在是九座焚化爐．九座焚化爐的密度是全國第一那如果再興建．它有沒有這個必要跟需求最重要的是．我們現在它這個產生的影響． |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1652.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1672.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
對於環境的負荷環境部必須有義務把它交代清楚所以今天這個案子很清楚的它是一個環境的問題不是一個政治的議題但是既然政府高官做了這樣的承諾就必須負起政治責任所以我們希望在這個案子裡面這個提案是希望立刻停止彰濱工業區的 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1673.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1689.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
新建焚化路的所有程序包括剛剛署長所說的、署裡面所說的要繼續召開所謂的地區說明會看起來地區說明會程序完成之後其實環境部的態度是什麼才是重要的好,謝謝莎莎委員,請洪委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1695.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1722.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
一句話說人走茶涼但在民進黨政府主政之下反而變成是選完變卦選前跟大家講說不會蓋選前跟大家講說這是抹黑選前承諾說會解除契約選後變卦選後變臉選後跳票我想政府會讓國人不信任就是因為一次又一次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
1724.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
1753.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
不信守承諾所以彰化是人口數我們全台人口數最多的縣市但是在那麼重大的一個議題裡面如果說可以用這種因為在位的時候因為選前的時候就輕易的開出空頭支票選舉完之後人走了離開了卸任了換位子了然後繼續政策就照推的話那我想這是絕對不是責任政治 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
1753.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
1774.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
再者當時的林佳龍他是總統府的秘書長那是不是某種程度上也代表總統的意思那沒有任何一個人應該要負起責任嗎所以政府不能失信於民以及我們也認為說行政官員應該要有人負責在這兩個前提之下我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
1775.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
1791.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
相關的行政部會應該要面對這樣的一個責任政治所以在這個提案上面我覺得應該要更加嚴謹的一個討論那在還沒有討論以及沒有人要負起相關責任之前不宜再往下走以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
1795.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
1810.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
非常感謝洪委員剛剛黨團的同仁回覆我說他們請問了民主進步黨的黨團民主進步黨的黨團的回覆是說他們目前正在請示他們的總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
1811.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
1839.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那是不是可以請黨團的同仁再跟民主進步黨黨團的同仁聯絡一下說那個請示總召大概要請示到什麼時候因為我也不太好意思讓其他兩位委員坐在這邊哭等但也不要好像人家還在請示當中我們就先散會了那個孟凱雄不好意思再耽誤您三分鐘好不好三分鐘就好了可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
1841.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
1867.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我們等三分鐘好了啦這樣表現一點善意不要讓人家覺得人家還在請示我們就散會了就等三分鐘那利用這三分鐘的時間我請教一下那個今天經濟部有代表來嗎經濟部有代表來嗎我的問題是喔你們本人跟人家簽的契約經鼎最近是不是有跟你們申請延展 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
1870.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
1893.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
是不是跟你們申請延展一年?向委員報告,我是經濟部園區管理局局長。是。那金鼎公司沒有跟我們申請展延,他是申請說,因為他是說明會不能召開,而且就是說來申請說這一塊是不是能夠屬於不可抗力。但是這一塊的解釋的部分,我們還要依照程序,要組織委員會來審定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
1896.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
1925.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
所以他就是有跟你們希望展延開工日期嗎?對,但是要經過委員會那你剛剛為什麼說沒有勒?不是,先跟委員報告就是這個不可抗力的認定是不是不可抗力是另外一回事嗎?我剛剛請教你的是他有沒有跟你申請展延嗎?你就針對問題回答他不是跟你申請展延開工日期嗎?沒有,他只是說來申請就是說這一次的那個說明會啊他是屬於不可抗力 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
1927.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
1954.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
他只跟你說不可抗力他沒有跟你要求說展延開工日期到2024年6月15號沒有你確定沒有你確定沒有沒有沒有那個同仁跟我回報說有有嘛是明明就有剛剛問你還說沒有這個展延你們會不會准目前要經過委員會開會是不是什麼時候會開會下禮拜一下禮拜一嘛OK |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
1968.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
1984.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我們結論在哪?你不是要有個程序單給我?不是啦,不是這樣嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
1990.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
2010.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
因為現在民主進步黨黨團一直沒有回覆我們依照剛剛會議的宣告我們剛剛也等了三分鐘了我想時間也到了因此非常遺憾因為民主進步黨的黨團沒有派代表與會因此我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
2012.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
2025.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
就本案保留,請韓院長召集黨團協商今天協商的會議到此結束,散會非常感謝兩個黨團的代表還有行政機關的代表列席謝謝大家,散會 |