| IVOD_ID |
158492 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158492 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-20-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-30T10:02:47+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-30T10:16:28+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:41 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e088d2519d09eff3bf4f10c035d50fc64849d0b5afa0c2001be63f43b907692b255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
郭國文 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:02:47 - 10:16:28 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院龔秘書長明鑫、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲就「行政院表示：因財劃法修正，114年度總預算須重編」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【113年12月30日及114年1月2日二天一次會】） |
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謝謝主席。有請主計長跟財政部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
24.335 |
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44.032 |
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委員好主計長好部長好我想今天我們委員會要討論的關鍵字就是重編還有一個是重修重編總預算是不是要重編重修財劃法是不是要重修那重編的話當然是主計長的責任重修的話就是我們部長要去面對的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
45.473 |
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65.939 |
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好,到底要不要重編一個關鍵的問題就是說,我們看看這個圖表。主席長,我這個圖表是不是正確的?本來要有一個施政方針,然後才會有各部會進行概算。概算完以後行程之後,到8月底的時候要送預算進入立法院,是不是這樣子?要例行大概8個月之久,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
66.713 |
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88.766 |
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是,那個施政方針的一個制定然後我們從編徒,要籌編預算大概就是要需要3到5個月所以我剛剛也談到了就是所有計畫如果要刪減也必須要跟各部會逐一去討論對,逐一討論,要重新來一遍所以說這也就說您口頭所說的自愛難行這自愛難行不只是剛剛的預算啦剛剛講到說什麼那個潛進預算2800億2800億不是本來就要分三期的嗎?不是,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
95.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
121.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
所以今年是編20億那這個部分減的部分還是沒有辦法對啊就不一樣嘛不是割到拆得嘛更何況現在預算都已經審查都已經在進行當中縣市當中已經有剩下兩個縣市還沒完成而已嘛那眼見沒有多久就完成了嘛部會當中33個部會呢已經完成完全初步審議了嘛那麼現在就只有兩條路要走我們總預算如果通過的話你就是召喚執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
122.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
147.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好 照案執行之後 後面有一個救濟的程序暫時處分 先復議 暫時處分 然後再釋憲 對不對這三種狀況的話 個人估計 如果按照上次執權行使法的擴權法案到整個那個大法官會議解釋出來之後 憨不啷噹大概半年之久啦5月17通過之後 到半年之久 到10月25號所以半年之久的時候 你要因應的就是兩雙軌嘛 兩個路線 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
149.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
171.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
第一個,我們來執行啊,你現在所編那個總預算照案通過你就按照這種方式執行,也就是沒有3減3753億的狀況下去執行,對不對?是不是?照案執行就是這樣子嘛我也不能照案執行,我必須先控管,不然...對,控管齁,就控管萬一事件沒有過的話,3753就在後半年的時候來執行嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
172.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
192.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
所以說你現在是雙軌並進的方式嘛如果那3753放在後面如果萬一事先沒有執行的話那3753就要開始處理嘛對不對那3753處理之後呢接下來呢後續的部分你還有面臨一個雙軌的問題也就是明年開始你要編總預算啊是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
193.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
212.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那你是不是一樣要雙軌進行?是不是?一個是屬於如果假設事件有成功的話也就是說或許認為大法官會解釋說這個通過的財政收支方法基本上是違憲的話那你是不是按照原來的假案對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
213.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
233.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那麼議案的部分呢是不是變成說如果說事件失敗的話那是不是你還有另外一個可能性就是說你要編那是不是你不是告訴本席明年的這個預算是不是要編兩種走兩種途徑對不對所以實際執行是有他的困難在對阿是不是要用雙軌的方式嘛我問你嘛要面對這個問題嘛是 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
235.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
260.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
但是中央部會各個部會編兩種預算嘛對不對那是不是以後的縣市政府也要編兩種的預算你是不是要跟地方的主計人員是這樣告知有可能啊因為這種屬於不確定的狀態嘛屬於可能凍結的狀態嘛凍結的狀況底下你經過半年持久很有可能一個走向有效一個走向無效嘛是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
261.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
275.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以不論是明年的預算的執行面也好或者明年的預算的編列面也好都會面臨雙軌的部分主席長你是不是要拆開四種可能性來去進行明年的整個預算編列與執行是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
276.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
298.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以我們本身就說他在編預算、抽編預算方面會有很大的一個困難不是很大的困難嘛講白一點更何況你剛剛講了3到5個月讓你整個四限案明年如果按照我剛剛推估半年之後你到說3753要執行你說要重編有可能嗎因為3到5個月不是到年底了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
299.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
327.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
主計長你要直接的講出你的困難點啦因為你現在沒有辦法重編嘛你現在沒有辦法重編嘛還是你要進行重編不可能嘛不可能的情況底下你要等到四限完以後再重編的話那不是到年底了嗎對不對是不是主計長你要回答我不要點頭啊是是這樣子嘛所以非常的可能自然難行的情況底下你要講清楚你要講清楚所以你等到四限暫時的狀態你也沒有辦法處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
329.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
330.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
主委長,您要回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
349.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
375.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
是目前如果說是現在未定的狀態那我必須先控管3753不能執行好這是一個關鍵問題嘛好那你今天你今天昨天在報紙上又有提到說如果說錢要隨同事權要隨同錢來做移轉嘛昨天有提到這一個嘛要修正所謂的這個行政行政作用法嘛好那你口中的行政作用法是哪些法 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
376.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
396.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
例如說有關那個地方制度法相關事權的一個還有一個相關的例如說龍寶啊老寶相關的一個負擔的一個機關的一個修改負擔的修改也就是說應該下放給地方還要下放給地方嘛老寶啦龍寶啦等等還有地方制度法的事權的一個下放責任的下放錢的下放好那問題來了那個莊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
399.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
411.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
拜託,這個修法的工作就是您相關的工作啦。部長,你之前一直講說不應該倡訴立法,你跟地方政府一直有在進行溝通嘛,對不對?你覺得你這個地方溝通還會不會持續進行? |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
418.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
439.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
幾個指標都濃縮有個共識唯一沒有共識是三個我想這個指標的定義我們之前花很多那是橫向的部分嗎每一個指標對要不然就指標背後的含義大家要用一個權重比嘛用釐清然後才能夠彙整加下來接下來就是權重權重以及調整系數因為其實我們在跟地方政府討論的時候地方政府的意見都能夠充分的表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
440.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
468.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
比如說人口的部分部分縣市也告訴你說你不能只用單一人口數因為人口裡面有結構的問題沒有我只問您說你會不會持續跟他們做溝通還有包括地方制度法你有沒有打算要修地方制度法你要保留一個重修的可能性嘛有沒有可能因為為什麼部長我提醒你一點如果說將來真的有要執行所謂的這3753例的時候那個困擾可能不是你喔地方政府很大困擾喔是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
469.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
483.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
如果今天拿到的錢是直接把它分掉福利那很好處理啊可是現在的錢如果是要執行事情的話那要耗費很多的人力欸還有包括他今年度的施政計畫當中有沒有包括這3753億啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
485.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
500.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
對,因為在那個中央統籌分配稅款我們會在這個年度開始前的四個月之前就要通知各地方政府次年可以分得多少那他就根據這樣子去編列預算所以他原來的預算裡面並沒有含這個3753億嘛他工作計畫都沒有這些他拿到這個錢要怎麼規劃 對不對所以說你從這個角度來說也是自愛難行嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
511.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
518.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以那個部長我要跟您說的是說你在之前的溝通的那個部分著重於水平分配那接下來是中央的這個分配的配置的情況底下或許將來他們遇到的問題說其實我真的不需要這麼多錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
535.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
535.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
拜託請主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
555.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
565.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
現在說宏觀調控的部分 剩下兩個可能性嘛一個是一般性的補助 一個是計畫性的補助嘛 對不對計畫性的補助應該沒有什麼太大的問題啊因為主控權在你嘛 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
567.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
586.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
是嘛那一般性的補助因為已經被匡列可是你當初一直講說呢因為行政院主計處一直講說114年度的是2051億嘛你好像你感覺上次叫115年這個所謂這個法才會執行一樣但事實上呢不得少於修正施行前的一年113年度其實是2303億 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
588.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
610.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
對不對是23031正確的講法是23031對啊是23031不是2051嘛所以這種情況底下我必須說如果說你這個一般性補助應該沒有也不是說毫無條件說要補就補嘛你總是要有一個執行的標準嘛它的效率它的執行率要怎麼樣你要不要給這筆錢有沒有一個標準在 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
612.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
642.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
因為一般性補助主要是在於均衡就是說有不均衡的部分我們給他一些的協助所以主要是第一個限制有差短的部分我們優先來補助那第二個就是說我們會補助他教育、社會還有基本設施相關的一個部分那他錢都已經夠了這些的補助應該也就不用了所以他主要的一些項目都已經不用了所以你要把一般性補助跟這個所謂的這個統籌的部分重疊的部分你要抓出來大家都好意你有沒有抓過 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
642.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
649.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
有那個不是說基本設施相關是10421042也就是在這個2000多億當中還有1042是重疊的這個就是以後可以縮減的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
659.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
664.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
另外一個部分我必須要跟你講你這個主計長擔子很重我剛剛講說你要走雙軌未來走雙軌現在走雙軌之外你現在還面臨兩個問題欸行政權有他的行政權政策規劃的主張要落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
675.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
700.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
立法院現在是在野多數他也想要透過這個立法的方式來指揮你行政權譬如講最近又有多一個之前的禁法補助多了225億之前這一個公糧補助多了90億最近的健保費65歲免健保費又多65億也就是說落選的總統候選人他要完成他的政見透過立法的方式來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
702.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
713.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
當選的總統候選人也有他的政見要執行啊你變成要執行兩個一個當選的一個是落選的三七五三一啊對他們來說是輔選的也就是說他們未來要輔選他們的那個縣市首長的選舉啊也就是當選的政見也要落實那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
722.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
723.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
如果執行當政者的這個狀況還有落選的狀況那你會不會舉債? |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
735.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
755.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
呃這個舉債的部分要請財政部好來財政部來15%嘛總共我跟你算過啦2685億嘛2685億嘛舉債其實我想各位委員也都重視所謂的財政紀律不輕易舉債而且對而且公共債務法裡面也有流量跟存量的管制對都有15% |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
756.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
759.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
即便15%你全部補 取代到2685你還是28%的3753你還是補助不到嘛 還是差1000億嘛而且財政要有韌性 財政紀律要維持嘛那我問你現在財政紀律有辦法維持嗎當選要落實他的政見啊 落選要落實他的政見啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
775.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
802.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
財政要有一定的空間留著不能全部把它用可是你要面對這個政治的現實啊比如說你像發生疫情等等的時候必須國家要有一個財政的能力來去應用那是後面的部分你還有一個舉債2.8兆當然是預留未來的變數我可以理解嘛但是現階段你就面臨一個雙重的問題落選人要落實他的政見當選人要落實他的政見否則的話你難道把當選的政見不執行要執行落選的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
802.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
803.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
謝謝郭國文委員 |