| IVOD_ID |
15844 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15844 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-24T08:30:29+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-24T12:04:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:33:31 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d1c34ab709cdaffb099e01fa654b137933be8d109af184be42808b6a663f6c12a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案。二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。【4月24日及25日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:29 - 12:04:00 |
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徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案案案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1882.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1883.679 |
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事件處理法草案案。」宣讀完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1912.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1934.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我們這次法案審查,如果委員有修正動議,在10點半以前送交議事人員,以便會診印發。我們先介紹在場的委員。因為我都一直待在國防外交委員會,我怕別的委員會名字講錯。你用名字給我。先倒表給我一下。來,陳永康委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1937.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1942.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
馬文君委員、鄭振銓委員、黃榮委員、洪聖翰委員、徐宇貞委員陳冠廷委員、沈伯洋委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1964.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1983.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具李博義委員徐巧芯等20人擬具李博義委員徐巧芯等20人擬具李博義委員徐巧芯等20人擬具李博義委員徐巧芯等20人擬具李博義委員徐巧芯等20人擬具李博義委員徐巧芯等20人擬具李博義委員徐巧芯等20人擬具李博義委員徐巧芯等20人擬具李博義委員徐巧芯等20人擬具李博義委員徐巧芯等20人擬具李博義委員徐巧芯等20人擬具李博義委員徐巧芯等20人擬具李博義委員徐巧 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1995.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2021.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
總督察長是副總督察長周景隆,政務辦公室主任廖建新,政治專案局副局長張維新,軍備局局長林文祥,主計局局長謝其賢,軍醫局局長蔡建松,站規司副司長曹定民, |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2024.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2051.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
知規司司長鄧克雄、法律司司長沈世偉、整平司副司長張世行、國防採購司主任張雅萍、人事參謀次長室人事勤務處處長徐永祥、情報參謀次長室情報政策準備處處長王家榮、 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2055.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2073.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
作戰及計劃參謀次長室助理次長李鳳祥後勤參謀次長室代理助理次長陳義智通信電子資訊參謀次長室助理次長林齊輝訓練參謀次長室助理次長魏兆林陸軍參謀長陳建義海軍參謀長邱俊榮 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2087.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2096.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
空軍參謀長曹敬平、後備指揮部參謀長薛淵全、縣指部參謀長呂正芳、陸軍後勤部參謀長劉清勳、直通電軍指揮部參謀長陳俊良、軍勤局第一處處長鄧敦仁、 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2115.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2138.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
電展室副主任萬鴻森。中山科學研究院院長張忠誠。我們今天因為是跟司法、法治委員會聯審,那我們歡迎司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳法官郭任森。法務部參事林豐文。 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2141.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2168.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
國安局人事處吳副處長,跟我們委員會報告,我們在這裡因為勤工法,勤制相關單位非主觀管的,我們不會在這邊揭露姓名,我們跟司法法制的同仁先報告一下。好,再來教育部學生事務及特殊教育師專門委員鄭文堯,海委會人事處副處長鄭中堅,海巡署人事室專委翁群遠, |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2170.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2175.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
以上是列席官員馬尾你不知道程序發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2185.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2189.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那我先做一個程序發言因為今天我們要審查的這個部分陸海空軍懲罰法還有另外一個就是我們軍人權益事件處理法草案的這個相對的部分那我們看到這個懲罰法裡面因為我們現在目前軍法因為洪仲秋案 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2210.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2214.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
已經把雖然暫時我們還是存在的軍事法庭可是我們在平時已經移到我們一般的法庭上面去做審理那目前還他實體還是存在有我們的陸海空軍刑法還有一個就是陸海空軍懲罰法 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2230.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2231.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2257.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2260.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
原來的法案有37條現在擴增到73條這已經屬於重大修訂了而且甚至裡面有很多其實是已經嚴重的擴權或者甚至空白授權我覺得比較有疑義的就是說之前我們為什麼把那個就因為洪仲秋案 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2276.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2279.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那時候我們的第10條,如果大家有印象的話,那個那時候的第10條其實就是希望國防部不要有黑箱作業,那國防部當然也不希望讓外界有這樣的印象,所以其實把長官都應該要以書面下達,這是當時民進黨的總召柯建民領銜連署的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2300.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2301.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2326.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2335.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
拿掉以後,他可能對於暴行犯上抗命、聚眾鬥毆這些事件不斷的增加,而且幹部要維持紀律其實真的是沒有有效的工具,可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2340.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2344.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我們在今年一五一已經延長了那未來會衍生更多的問題所以我先舉個例子來說就裡面包括懲罰法裡面的這個因人涉事或者空白授權的條文太多了而且加大懲罰的力度懲罰的種類從罰站到撤職馬委員我們實質審查還沒有到我說你上面有什麼建議好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2366.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2393.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
就是甚至到罰款剝奪或減少退出給予這樣的部分一個懲罰法而已他只是可能觸犯軍紀等一下我把它講完嘛因為你到可以撤職或者把人家退出給予他都可以拿掉一個主官包括可能一個旅長或者甚至一個軍團的指揮官他可能就有這樣的權限這是不合理的所以如果我們要動到這麼大的一個條文的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2395.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2405.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2424.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2443.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
希望召開公聽會,謝謝。好,謝謝馬委員的程序發言。我們今天審的兩套法,一個是《陸海空軍懲罰法》是讓所有的懲戒行為有法律依據,但法的好或不好才是我們審查的目的。所以我們在審查的時候可以逐條來處理。第二個,裡面在《軍人權益事件處理法》也把它法制化。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2445.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2471.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
讓軍人如果有有冤屈或者這個處罰不合理有一個處理流程。同樣道理這個法律司設計出來的版本若不好也就要借重各位委員的智慧來處理了我先補充介紹我剛有看到吳宗憲委員還有黃國昌委員也到席這樣好不好那個馬文君委員提出程序發言建議召開公聽會我跟我們聯審的同仁參詳一下因為我們今天是兩天一次會那委員都已經來開會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2473.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2483.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我贊成召開公聽會,我也會來召開公聽會,但是我們那個詢答先繼續,詢答結束,召開完公聽會,我們再來進行逐條實質的審查。將來一面呢,我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2489.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2517.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
在待會兒詢答的時候各位可能有相關的事務要詢問或者有相關的條文也可以問那公聽會的時候才知道公聽什麼問什麼公聽會還要列出專家代表所以公聽會還有一個籌辦時間所以本席這邊才是看各黨團有沒有意見兩個委員會同仁有沒有意見第一個我們在進入這個審查的時候呢之前要召開公聽會那第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2517.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2539.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
在今天的議程尋答照常進行,那尋答結束之後,代工定會召開完畢,我們再進行相關的大體跟主要審查。」我不知道各位有沒有意見?因為你現在尋答以後,其實我們又不瞭,其實你召開工定會的意義會不大,我們先不會召開工定會,我們還是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2542.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2553.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我們還是,我們首先要說明,為了維持軍紀,我們都支持,可是因為它動得實在太大,它從37條變成73條,它多了36條,那這裡面是不是應該,而且那時候鬧得那麼大,我贊成開公聽會,我的意思是說,今天來,如果我們這樣就散會囉, |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2564.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2566.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、審查本院委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2588.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2608.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
第二、我們在進行尋答各位垂詢的問題,不管是就這兩個法案,或者有相關其他問題可以提出來尋答。第二、我們在這個公聽會開完之後進入逐條審查還有大體討論,其實都還可以再問。所以,沒有,大體完逐條。好,來,林楚欣委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2610.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2636.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
主席各位立法院的同仁大家早安我認為確實這一部法律修得非常多也非常的廣那麼也攸關到接下來如何讓軍中在做管理的時候更有制度化沒錯其實洪仲崇案之後大家非常關心的是軍中人權的部分那所以說我認為今天大家都聚集在這裡尤其是司法法制都在聯席今天有這麼多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2637.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2638.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2649.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2675.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
就不詢答,我認為這對於整個立法院的遇事運作上面其實是一種人力上的浪費,所以我同意支持就是主席,我們先進行詢答,因為剛剛其實馬文君委員的發言的過程當中也確實點出了一些問題,我相信在場的委員看了這個法規也有一些問題,那麼我們先點出來今天在場有這麼多的媒體在這裡,我們藉由今天不論是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2676.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2688.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
國防委員會的直播又或者現場媒體,我們把問題點出來,也可以為後續的公聽會做一個暖身,所以我同意今天先詢答,然後開公聽會。好,謝謝林楚瑩委員,沈博洋委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2690.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2708.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我快速講一下,因為這個大家都知道剛剛前面有提到這跟洪仲修案也是有點關係那我應該蠻有資格講話的,我是洪仲修案的律師所以呢,這邊呢我先提醒一下就是說第一個就是這個條文真的修得非常多所以呢如果說直接開公聽會的話會有一個很大的問題就是說會沒有辦法聚焦啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2708.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2731.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以如果說今天先詢答的話,我們可以先把認為每一個委員認為有問題的法條先聚焦以後,然後再進行公聽會,然後再一次的大體發言,那這樣就會更聚焦,那我才會知道到底問題出在哪裡,那不然的話條文那麼多,一次開公聽會可能會沒有辦法解決問題。好,謝謝,謝謝沈波洋委員。我跟我們同仁再討論一下,第一個,我們都贊成開公聽會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2732.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2759.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那我們今天已經兩個委員會聯席審查了那在進行詢答的時候確實可以達到聚焦因為這裡面懲罰法就是紀律這個權益事件的保護就是人權這兩個法剛好是兩個翅膀那因為條文很多條透過今天詢答大家關注的點也讓國防部召公聽會要focus要聚焦在那裡第一個好處第二個我們未來這個法這麼多條要審查我也建議我們兩個委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2760.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2775.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
一開始先把都沒意見的條文先過然後聚焦在有爭議的條文來審查這樣才能把精力用在比較有用的事情上面所以是不是我再詢問一次啦我們今天就進行詢答完了公聽會公聽會完 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2777.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2798.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
在進行大體討論、逐條討論。」我想這裡面不管是就意見的收集做審查程序的完備都不會有所影響這樣可能會比較完整也避免今天我們這樣聚集完若今天不詢答那我們就就散會了我認為這並不妥適啦不知道各位委員有沒有意見沒有的話我們就準備開始進行詢答啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2799.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2809.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
好,謝謝各位。我們現在請國防部長、邱國正部長就本次審查兩部法律的行政院函請審議版本進行報告。邱國正部長請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2822.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2848.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
主席、各位委員、各部會與會的先進,大家好。我想今天大願外交及國防、還有司法及法制委員會來聯席審查我們陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案以及軍人權益事件處理法的一個草案。對各位委員長期關懷國防事務特別表達感激之意。現行的這個陸海空軍的懲罰法 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2849.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2867.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
民國19年制定的在104年進行第5次的修正。當然我們審查當前我們國軍兵力結構還有法治思維這些實況跟陸海空軍懲罰法、立法跟第一次修正的時間不同。 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2868.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2880.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
為了事先保障我們軍中的人權,而且維護部隊的紀律,我們部旅也邀請了很多學者專家來通盤做檢討,並且提出修正草案,來進行我們國軍懲罰的一個制度。 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2883.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2898.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
另外,我們現行的軍人權益救濟範圍都分散在各個訴願法或相關的行政法令裏面,沒有統一適用的法律,所以光不遠矣就擬具了軍人權益事件處理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2899.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2918.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
是軍人未來在面臨到權益的爭議的時候可以明確而且便捷地進入救濟的一個途徑。有關於法案的說明,我建議由法律司司長、沈司長向大家做詳細報告,敬請大院各位委員能夠給予支持跟指導。 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2923.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2949.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
主席、各位委員、先進。以下就陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案還有軍人權益事件處理法的草案說明如下。第一,陸海空軍懲罰法現行的懲罰法大致承襲民國19年當時的一個立法體力因為不服現行法制的思維本部從109年起就成立了修法小組參考外國立法、學說還有司法實務的見解並且跟司法院、法務部等機關召開了將近50次的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2952.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2975.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
另外赴國軍各單位跟不同職務階級的官、士兵辦理了15場次的一個座談,再由行政院召開了25次的逐條審查會議,最終才完成了這個草案。第一個有關陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案的一個摘要,這次懲罰法修正草案是全案修正,草案共計有6章79條,草案的修正重點,括弧一, |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2976.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2997.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
調整軍人懲罰的事由,軍人應受懲罰的行為,我們區分為勤務上與勤務外的兩類,前者因為軍人違反服勤的義務,可以懲罰,後者是因為影響軍域或是部隊運作為原則,如果不是我們具體列舉的勤務外的違紀行為,那就不可以做撤職或是記納過這種重大的懲罰。 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2999.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3020.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
花火兒,悔過懲罰向來有限制人身自由的憲法爭議。我們考量悔過本來就是透過教育的手段,使危機行為人改過向善。所以我們將悔過的地點修正為適當的處所,而且不可以有禁錮等不人道的一個待遇。另外,明定執行的期間不計入服役的役期跟年資。 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3023.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3041.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
三、參考公務員懲戒法我們增訂了可以處心台幣5000元到100萬元的一個罰款,還有剝奪或減少退出給予的一個財產性的懲罰,使部隊長能針對不同身份、即職還有行為態樣,是以更多元而且適切的一個懲罰。四、 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3043.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3071.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
增進軍人依附司法懲戒的要件還有相關的配套還有暫時停止勤務、數個違紀行為、合一評價還有執行等等的規範以符合未來部隊的一個時序。五、增進調查的專章將權力告知、緘默權、律師依賴權、禁止夜間詢問及證據排除法則等等的重要調查原則我們把它入法。另外規範刑事偵查競合的處理等事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3072.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3100.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
以使得將來的調查能符合正當法律程序及法律保留的原則。五、為了妥善處理軍事處所內造成重大死傷案件,我們增訂那邊專家學者及社會公正人士參與的專案調查及評議機制,並且允許事件的當事人或特定家屬可以請求調查及參與程序以回應社會的期待。 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3102.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3126.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
二、大院徐巧芯及廖偉祥等18位委員擬具的懲罰法修正草案,我們摘要說明如下。1、增訂行政調查的證據留存規範。委員等提案增訂懲罰法第8條第4項,明定相關事證經單位主觀同意後,得作副本審查,以避免行政調查因偵查不公開而受不利的影響。 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3127.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3146.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
本部的意見是,行政調查本來就不會因為刑事偵查而停止。相關的事證,如果經過檢察官扣案後,不論是正本或是副本,都是屬於偵查不公開的範圍。我們建議這個事不要增訂,以符合《刑事疏通法》相關的規定。五、刮鬍兒刪除降階的懲罰。 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3148.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3166.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
委員等建議因目前國軍實務上沒有降階的一個實例,提案刪除現行條文12條2款,還有第18條有關降階的懲罰。本部的延期建議是,現行的降階懲罰因為必須要停止任用,依照陸海空軍軍官司官服役條例14條1項6款, |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3168.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3192.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
應該要停役,會造成受降階懲罰者就必須離營,效果跟撤職相類同。」為了使實務能夠妥善運用降階的這個懲罰,這一次的行政院版本的修正草案的第22條將停止任用,修正為降階者一年內不得調任主管的職務,我們建議還是維持降階的這個懲罰的種類。 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3194.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3214.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
刮布山增訂軍官罰請委員等提案現行條文第12條6款增訂違紀的軍官可以罰請的這個懲罰的種類。本部的意見因為軍官負責部隊的指揮跟領導,他的任官任職的條件都比士官跟士兵都相對來的嚴格。 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3216.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3233.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
對他的軍官的身份我們是覺得應該要有一定程度的一個尊重而且軍官執行罰勤以後對於後續的領導統一我們覺得可能會生不利的一個影響所以我們建議軍官罰勤這個部分我們建議不予增訂。五、增訂主觀的連帶責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3235.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3258.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
委員等提案在現行條文第15條增訂第15款《待於監督管理所屬人員以致發生軍機案件的連帶懲罰條款》。本部延期的建議是,行政院版本第5條第3款已經將《待於監督所屬人員執行勤務或是服役機關管理規範》把它明定為勤務上的違紀行為。長官, |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3260.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3279.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
不需要因為所屬官兵非執行及勤務的行為而受懲罰,所以我們建議是參採行政院的版本。五、撤職停止任用,修正為不得調任主管職務。委員等提案參考公務員懲戒法現行條文第17條 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3283.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3311.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
撤職後面接著停止任用,修正為不得調任主管的職務。」本部的嚴希建議是,軍人的人事規範跟文職公務員不同,軍士官撤職並且停止任用後,依照《陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例》第14條一項六款的規定,就要停役,他會喪失現役軍人的身份,他是軍人最嚴厲的一個懲罰,建議我們維持現行撤職後面搭著停止任用的一個制度。 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3313.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3339.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
修正降級的期間,委員等提案將現行條文第19條降級的期間從三個月以上一年以下修正為一個月以上一年以下,以利部隊彈性的運用。本部的意見是降級是針對為私情節非屬輕微人員來實施,如果下修執行的期限,我們怕會弱化這個懲罰的一個效益,我們建議還是維持現行降級的這個期間。 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3343.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3357.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
第七、累計三大過徹職,增訂了一個公過相抵。委員等提案現行條文第20條第二項,增訂在一年內累計大過三次的,經過公過相抵計算後,才可以徹職。 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3358.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3372.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
本部的言息一件事,一年內累積滿三大過的人,他的工作態度跟表現已經明顯不適應限制,基於國軍流優太烈的一個立場,我們建議不予增訂,以確保部隊的一個純淨。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3373.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3378.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
刮鬍疤、刪除罰薪的懲罰。」委員等認為現行條文第21條的罰薪因為違反《勞動基準法》第26條僱主不得預扣工資作為違約或賠償金的精神,所以委員等建議刪除。 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3389.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3404.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
本部的意見是軍人為國家的公務員是跟國家間的法律關係,不適合全然比照司法的勞動關係,而且公務員懲戒亦有檢縫的這種處分,我們建議維持現行罰薪的懲罰種類。七、刪除悔過檢、訴禁足及罰站。 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3412.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3431.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
委員等提案刪除、拘束、人身自由且無教育意義的悔過相關的條文請各位委員參閱。他建議刪除、悔過、減訴、禁足、罰站等等的這些紀律懲罰,一律改以罰情或是罰款這些懲罰的種類來取代。本部的建議是,懲罰種類的選擇要看受懲罰人的身份、階級 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3437.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3462.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
教育程度、經濟狀態等等來綜合判斷,如果權責長官依照個案情節綜合判斷後來選擇最適切的一個懲罰種類,那這些上開的機率懲罰是針對義務役或是情節比較輕微的違紀行為所做的一個懲罰,所以我們建議還是予以維持。第二大類是軍人權益事件處理法。司法院108年11月29日作成施治785解釋,放寬公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3465.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3493.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
提起司法救濟的一個範疇軍人是廣義的公務員為現行軍人權益的救濟是按爭議的類型依照訴願法或是機關自行訂定的行政規則來辦理欠缺整合的一個法律規範部分爭議的類型也不許提起司法救濟為了填補現行法制上的一個不足整合現行多元分歧的這個救濟管道本部我們擬具了一個軍人權益事件的處理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3494.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3515.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
以下簡稱軍權法。軍權法草案的摘要總共有6章78條,重點包括,一、軍人與其所屬機關構部隊學校行政法人間關於身份、公法上財產請求、獎懲、考積及其他行政處分或管理措施的爭議,一本法的附審、申訴、再申訴與行政訴訟的程序來就緝。二、 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3517.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3545.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
軍人不符所屬機關對於其所為涉及軍人身份變更、空馬戰場產生請求將成或考及事項的行政處分,除了法律別有規定外,得向地方軍事法院設置的官兵權益保障會來提起複審。三、軍人不符所屬機關所為得提起複審以外的行政處分或管理措施,可以向申訴管轄機關提起申訴,如果不符,可以向權保會提起再申訴。四、 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3547.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3557.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
不服複審或再申訴的決定,可以向高等軍事法院勤務法庭提起行政訴訟。如果仍然有不服的話,得再向高等行政法院提起上訴。 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3559.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3588.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
二、大院徐巧芯等20位委員針對軍權法草案的一個修正的意見。委員等提出草案與行政院版本的內容大致都相同,只有在第8條第3項增訂志願亦退伍的軍人不可以擔任兼任的全保委員,提出了這個條款。為兼任全保委員,我們認為要具備公正客觀的遴選要件外,亦應對軍事專業或文化有一定程度的了解,事不宜疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3589.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3613.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
禁止志願役退伍人員擔任兼任的權保委員。」最後結語,本次懲罰法修正草案與軍權法草案均系為堅實部隊紀律與國防戰力,同時適切回應近期社會關切的軍中人權等國防議題,屬國軍法制上的一個重要的里程碑。其前儘早完備立法的程序,懇請各位委員先進給予支持,不吝賜教。謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3617.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3633.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
謝謝沈司長。我們今天還有相關列席的單位,司法院有沒有補充報告?都有書面提供給委員,有沒有口頭要報告的?沒有。法務部呢?國安局教育部海委會有沒有要補充報告的? |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3634.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3638.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3649.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3668.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
結束後才進行條文的審查。」這是我們剛才經由馬委員的程序發言,我們達到了共識。那也因為這樣子,所以我們一開始宣告的10點半提修正動議,今天就不用提出。因為今天既然沒有經過公聽,也沒有條文審查,這個修正動議今天就不用提出。 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3670.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3691.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這接下來是因為今天連審的人數眾多加上未來還有公聽又有大體竹條等等所以我們今天發言時間會略為縮短今天本委會委員時間4加2非聯席會的委員時間4分鐘10點半發言登記截止如果有臨時提案請在10點半 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3692.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3712.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
前提出,到11點左右我們會視詢答情形進行處理。首先我們請黃國昌委員進行詢答。二號謝格主席,麻煩有請部長。來,邱部長請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3722.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3748.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
官員好部長好支持國防守護台灣我相信是全體國人的共識在支持國防預算的同時我們絕對沒有辦法容忍貪腐跟收受回扣的事情這個基本原則我相信部長同意同意我從2019年開始追蹤一個弊案那個時候在追蹤這個弊案的時候為了怕打草驚蛇所以我什麼話都沒有講我什麼話都沒有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3751.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3764.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
這什麼弊案呢?我們的國防部空子部在福興營區搞了一個30億的改建工程。國人都支持,林全還去辦動工。結果我們的高階將領負責這個營區改建的少將張大偉竟然收受賄賂2800萬。 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3776.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3803.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這個案子我一路追蹤到2020年我離開立法院我持續追蹤新北地檢署第一次給他特殊的待遇做不起訴處分的時候我非常的震驚啊因為我掌握到的事件是罪證確鑿竟然還給他不起訴處分還好有年輕有勇氣的檢察官持續追蹤下去後來把他起訴了把他起訴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3804.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3824.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
所呈現出來的犯罪結構這個不肖的軍人這個不肖的少將就是從國家吸血我為什麼說從國家吸血他透過減少評訴減少施工的單位也就是少做事但錢一樣給 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3825.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3851.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
然後讓承包商可以從裡面去套不法的贓款出來大意講好的是4500萬一個工程張大文一個人4500萬拿了2800萬了以後他被羈押檢察官問他說錢到哪裡去他說丟丟到火爐全部把它燒了沒有人相信這樣的說辭 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3854.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3870.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
司法的歸司法我在意的是國防部面對這件事情的態度國防部後來在2021年8月的時候完成了行政調查報告我那個時候回到民間社會我只有一個問題非常困惑這個行政調查報告為何不公開請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3873.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3901.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我跟委員報告這案子我到任以後我發覺講說這個裡面知識體大後來有很尊重他們的調查方法但我第一個做法講說他依法就辦受刑事處罰這個沒有問題這個我跟部長有共識現在我關心的是我們國軍在處理這件事情的時候我們內部的行政程序是怎麼處理的我第一個問題是這樣的行政調查報告為什麼不願意公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3903.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3929.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
請法律師跟您做說明好不好是委員好我法律師司長我跟委員簡單報告這個案子我們確實有做了一個行政調查那行政調查的相關的資料我們有跟當時關切的委員我們都有主意去說沒有啊但問題是這個行政調查報告為什麼不會讓社會知道沒有什麼國防機密在裡面啊完全沒有國防機密在裡面啊還是我有什麼誤會裡面有國防機密被編密件所以不能公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3930.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3953.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我跟委員報告我們跟當時所有關切的委員我們都有足以去說明這兩回事嘛是社會大眾有沒有知的權利報告委員我們這一次在陸海空軍懲罰法裡面的專案調查也有特別寫類似將來像這種東西我們有個法源依據我們就會把它做出你先不要跟我講以後的事情現在我在跟你討論的是現在的法規範到底有什麼理由不公開這是我的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3955.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3978.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
你到現在還是沒有針對問題回答?所以現在就是沒有公開嗎?只有關切的委員有資格看到公民社會沒有資格看到你的立場是這樣嗎?來我繼續往下問你們這個國防部法紀調查結案報告整本報告我全部敗讀啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3980.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3999.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這個報告是以什麼當作基礎?是以當初第一次放水的新北地檢署檢察官的不起訴處分為基礎耶後來起訴啦現在一審甚至判刑啦你們這個行政調查報告的基礎已經完全改變了有重新做行政調查報告嗎?請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4003.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4009.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
公開讓社會知道,否則的話最起碼社法法制委員會、外交國防委員會所有的委員通通發因為這個報告需要接受社會檢證你連有重新做調查報告這件事情整個社會都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4028.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4030.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4048.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4065.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我覺得最離譜的事情是什麼有一個關鍵的核心會議就是那個貪贓枉法的張大偉他在2017年4月24號的時候主動召集了會議召集會議做什麼事情減少施作的評訴減少施作的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4066.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4089.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
但我看你的調查報告我看了半天啊為什麼這麼重要的會議可以沒有會議紀錄也沒有簽辦公文是有會議紀錄還沒有浮上水面還是根本沒有會議紀錄請回答報委員詳細的狀況因為有一段時間我要回去看那個報告但我記得確實當時有會議有的會議沒有會議紀錄確實有這種情況這樣子的會議這麼重要的會議沒有會議紀錄正常嗎請部長報委員當然不正常當然不正常 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4095.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4102.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4124.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4129.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
出了這麼大的事情,調查報告不公開,檢討報告有做嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4131.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4154.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
檢討報告有做嗎?當初有做,後來因為我們很多現已法定規章講在檢檢當中,主席現在站起來了,我要尊重主席,還有其他後面登記發言的委員,但這個案子我會繼續追下去。請部長拜託,所有相關你們更新的調查報告,包括檢討報告,包括後面處分的哪些人,一個禮拜之內書面回覆可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4158.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4169.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這個都做好的東西了嘛!一個禮拜之內順便回覆,可以嗎?我們一般抓兩週啦,好不好?好啦好啦,那個主席兩個禮拜交出來,可以嗎?可以,可以。好,謝謝。謝謝黃國昌委員。來,部長請回,謝謝。好,我們接下來進行詢答委員,林柱英委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4192.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4194.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4217.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4239.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這個懲罰法還有就是軍人權益事件的處理法那麼在這樣的一個過程當中我們其實知道的那就是國防部的未來通過之後的執法量能到底足不足夠我想最近的這些新聞事件都可以看到是司法人員呢因為人力的部分其實一般的司法人員都出現了過勞的這樣的一個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4240.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4255.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那麼當我們的法規通過之後,修法過後,那麼我們現有的軍法官,還有我們現在新增的所謂國防法務官,那麼到底他們的配置在哪些單位是不是足夠,我覺得才是重要的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4255.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4274.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
因為法一旦通過修過之後雖然當然今天大家對於這些爭點還需要凝聚焦點也必須還要再開公聽會才會逐條審查但是我相信這個法規在過去的幾年當中至少兩到三年之中其實國防部都始終在做準備的 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4275.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4295.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那在這準備當中除了修法之外就是我們的執法的執行的量能到底夠不夠我們看到這個陸海空軍懲罰法當中是明定現在就是軍法官或者是國防法務官的依法來對刑事訴訟法等相關來做一個案件違紀案件的處理至於軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4296.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4323.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
權益處理法草案案 案 則是由國防法務官兩人及外部委員三人處理。言下之意,這個所謂的國防法務官,他肩負了很重要的責任。我想請問部長或是我們現場的司長,目前如果修法通過之後,所謂的國防法務官有多少人?軍法官又有多少人?法律司長跟你報告好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4324.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4350.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
謝謝委員,我跟委員報告我們準備這個法的時間也蠻久那這兩個法的最後面都有定有施行日期就是我們會報行政院合定了之後再來施行那現在的國防法務官也就是我們從去年開始考試院也很支持我們已經開始辦理國防法務官的考試目前第一批的國防法務官的人員結訓在今年就會結訓那第二批國防法務官錄取的人員第一批在今年結訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4351.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4378.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
對,那是多少人?13個人。對,那第二批的話他們在今年會納入受訓到明年會可能會派職有15個人這樣加起來就有28個人我們現在編列有大概60個的國防法官的職缺未來會放在不光是未來處理這些相關的案件在部隊裡面也會有一些國防法官來協助處理這些相關的案件這個人力我們有規劃所以言下之意就是說編列了60人那麼目前預期的會先補上 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4379.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4383.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
草案案件中的軍人權益事件處理法草案案件中的軍人權益事件處理法草案案件中的軍人權益事件處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4403.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4423.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
其實就本席所知,你們在去年考試的時候是不是還跟這個所謂的司法考試放在同一天?去年考試的時候沒有,今年的公布的這次考試,今年113年國防法務官考試的筆試時間跟司法官律師二次是同一天。你們這個是一個很有風險的行為喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4428.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4447.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
因為我特別整理出來了就是我們國防法務官、司法官跟律師報考的相關的資格以及他們的這個所謂薪水的比較啦當然我說實話啦我希望我們未來訂定了一個好的法律之後我們需要有優質的這種執行的法務官那麼以國防法務官目前的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4452.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4463.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
法律、司法、財經法、政治法、海洋法相關科系畢業都可以來報考,哨位起薪52,210元。司法官考試是政治、法律、行政相關畢業。受訓時只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4467.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4491.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
四萬九千三百四十塊但是一旦成為檢察官或法官的話月薪九萬九至於律師的話我們知道實習的時候三萬多到三萬五之間但是後來自己開業或受聘的話我想薪水絕對是超過五萬甚至六萬以上這不一定甚至於他可以自己來執業其實從薪水來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4494.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4512.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
委員講得很對,但是當軍人也要有一份使命感。我們第一批的國防法務官也有很好的背景學歷的,有四位同仁,他們也是一樣報考、授訊、任官。第二批的話,報考的人員我記得是300, |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4514.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4519.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4537.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4550.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
以數據來講,它會比外面高,但是我們在部隊裡面的團體生活、跑則感情,還有融入這個社會這個團體以後,會有一番,更有一番體會,我跟委員做這樣報告。好,本席其實還是希望就是說,當然這個從軍報國是一份榮耀啦, |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4553.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4554.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4576.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4597.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個所謂的比例或是薪資的數目當然它只是一個其中一項的比較但是我會希望在這個部分能夠有機會讓更多的年輕朋友能夠進來作為服務。好,謝謝。好,謝謝林楚英委員。來,部長次長請回。接下來進行詢答委員羅美玲委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4608.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4611.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
事件處理法草案 案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。七、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4636.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4637.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4664.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4689.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
海歸的義男他們在服兵役的時候會遇到哪些問題呢?因為一般上他們可能語言是不同那本席大概有列出了三個他們應該在軍中會遇到的問題第一個就是說沒有辦法來理解這個軍令那如果義男他不懂的中文或是台語自然就沒有辦法理解軍官的這個命令所以容易造成一些誤解 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4690.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4693.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
國防、司法及法制委員會徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4716.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4732.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
結果被判智能偏低被驗退。」實際上他是高學歷的一個海歸的一男這是真實發生的事情那甚至也有從美國回來的我們所俗稱的ABC他自願入伍可是呢卻遭到霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4732.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4736.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
條文修正草案案。五、審查行政院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查行政院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4749.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4773.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我跟委員報告,聽到這些事情發生,都很遺憾的事情。但是我們國軍一向包容講說,以合於規定的、該要入營的,我們都予以接納。但的的確確有很多,因為他生活的背景、環境不同,他到部隊以後,他適應力也可能會有些差別。但國軍從新訓一來報到,到他整個服役期間, |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4774.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4792.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我跟委員報告,唯一有個好處,就是他周邊這些跑者會互相幫忙,互相扶持。當然,我們也難免會發覺有些幹部他本身心態就不對,他對人講話態度或者用的這個腔調都會刺激別人,這是我們教育訓練的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4794.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4810.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
所以我跟委員報告講我這些問題我是承認有少部分存在但我並不以為少部分我就認為無所謂這將來會變成一個通病蠻可惜的所以我們會加強我們幹部的教育訓練還有跟大家相處之道 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4811.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4833.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
多方面管道切入,最起碼有意願到軍中服務,而他一開頭環境不太能適應的人,最起碼他的緩衝期當中他會得到一些幫助,也看到好的未來。部長,其實我想要請教的就是議員的這部分,有時候他進到軍中他聽不懂, |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4834.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4859.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
軍官或是他的學長在說什麼就產生了一些誤會那這誤會可能會造成彼此之間的一些所以我剛有提到了或是不適應或是霸凌的這個事件我給我給國防部一個建議像我們的檢查體系像法院等等司法院等等他們都已經建立了蠻完善的這個所謂的通譯制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4860.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4876.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
就針對這些海歸的這次異難我們希望就是說提供議員上的這個支持跟支援所以我們也希望國防部也有這樣子的這個制度我想請教我們國防部做得到嗎其實很多部會都已經有所謂的同意制度了 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4877.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4899.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我跟委員報告,這些要達到什麼目標啊,我講之後我也不敢保證。但我覺得講說他不光是語言的問題,這對他本身,由於原來語言他沒辦法接納,這是一個事實。但重點在哪裡?在他的幹部還有周飛鷹、袍澤對他的態度。如果說他們大家有這種互相關切、袍澤這種心態的話,他這樣會有人去幫他。 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4902.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4919.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
官部對他的講話也會有所礙,不管步調各方面都跟人家一般不一樣,這要有耐心。我跟委員報告,我當教育班長的時候,我就遇到過,我這個班裡面大約有一班以上的人從國外回來的,有香港、有美國的,後來怎麼樣帶他們? |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4922.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4934.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
國防、司法及法制委員會第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4939.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4964.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我跟委員我們只能夠看狀況來視線來調整但我沒辦法把大到這個編制表裡面每個單位要幾個同意人員同意人員還分很多英文、法文、廣東話所以我在這裡要建立國防部我們應該要跟法務部跟司法院跟單位單位來做聯繫我或者是用共享人才庫的這個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4965.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4975.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這次因為我們在實際上有看到一些實例所以我們也希望說國防部能夠建立一套完善的體制對這些海貴的藝能來講其實也是一個友善的一個福裕的這個環境這個建議給國防部來做參考因為這次修法其實本期也有提出相關的這個提案所以我請國防部審慎來看待這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4990.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5017.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這位委員我們應該要把他給納進來好不好請法律事項單獨再跟委員做一個詳細說明好謝謝羅美玲好謝謝部長請回我們接下來進行詢問的委員是黃仁委員謝謝主席有請邱部長來部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5028.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5055.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
黃委員好 部長好有關於我們陸海空的這個懲罰法的新政的一個罰款所以這邊有一天本席有點疑問就是是不是移植跟我們公務員的懲罰的相關議題好像變成了移植的一個草案因為為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5057.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5061.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我看這個新增了一個懲罰類型的罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5064.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5085.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
這些罰款的罰薪的差別是什麼?那陸海空的懲罰法和新增的罰款是參考公務員懲罰而懲戒法第9條和第17條公務員的懲罰而懲戒法的懲戒處而處分,也是同時有罰款和罰縫,但 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5088.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5105.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
法官法帶第50條對法官之懲戒處分,就不是罰薪只罰款。這些差別希望國防部可以釐清,不是只是把公務員的懲戒法的東西移植過來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5107.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5119.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5134.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5157.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我在任職服役期間有犯了相關的錯那一個退伍的人那你說再罰薪他已經沒有薪可以領了所以說罰款主要是針對這些類似的人當然另外還有一個是剝奪減少退出給予等等這些懲罰的種類會針對不同的情狀當事人不同的情狀還有他不同的一個過犯的行為然後會去給他做一個釋切的一個處罰這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5162.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5177.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這個罰款跟罰縫的一個立場上是不是引用了公務員的懲罰法?參考,我們有參考參考對不對?原本國軍就有這個制度,當初像編列也是跟公務員一道做一個比對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5180.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5207.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這個事要做解釋,因為我今天說好像有疑似過來的一些疑義所以我相信你們既然要有關於新增的罰款裡面就是針對陸海空的懲罰法應該你們自己本身很清楚這引用是不是公務員的懲戒法而且你們要有兩種的一個說辭這樣的話就比較不會混淆視聽好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5208.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5224.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那另外就是查我國在現行的法例的罰款的不多,罰款屬於內部懲罰,罰款懲罰的這個範圍同時跨越重大懲罰和非重大懲罰。 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5225.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5237.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
更重要是涉及到財產的懲罰,程序就必須嚴謹,新增罰款就涉及到部隊什麼層級的長官可以實行罰款,誰可以財量,罰款多寡, |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5241.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5261.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
等問題,這個部分國防部部長你來回答。所以我跟委員報告,這當初一定要很慎重納入考慮。當初為什麼有些法規有,但執行起來有點紊亂。就在哪個層級可以做決定,好像大家沒有注意。所以有些層級不夠的人,他做了決定以後,都執行了,都發覺不對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5263.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5280.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
所以我們為了避免內案再生,我們列一個表,什麼層級它有什麼權責。我想這樣把它給劃分清楚,對將來推動工作來講也有一個意義。當然一定要劃分清楚。有關於,第二個是關於美國眾議院通過的印太安全普通 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5281.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5294.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
撥款的一個法案。」美國參議院在4月20日通過印太安全補充的撥款法案根據美國眾議院撥款 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5295.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5322.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
撥款委員會的新聞稿裏面這筆款項直接到提到臺灣有關兩項分別為20億元用於在為臺灣和印太地區其他重要盟友和安全夥伴提供軍事融資以及19億美元用於普通向臺灣和地區夥伴提供的國防物資和國防服務有這麼一回事吧?是,有這回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5324.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5325.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5347.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5364.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
經備品項與服務。」請問部長,這樣如果實際上有新增項目,哪些項目是可以由我方提出的一個意見?我跟委員報告,它這個所謂這種資源,它有分類別,哪些用於平常訓練,或者哪些用於裝備。 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5368.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5391.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這個當初定的這個類別以後啊都可以談的不想他這樣依賴這筆錢要哪裡哪一條可以用哪一條不能用這個東西要談所以我目前我們可以掌握到講說我們希望講我們期望獲得的都會大在裡面而且美方他既然是這種善意來啊也是互相談妥了但是他提供的是不是融資 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5393.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5419.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
有融資嗎?有融資啊!有融資嗎?對!對!對!好!是!謝謝部長!好!謝謝委員!好!謝謝黃院委員!他的融資是Grants?是贈予的?是無償的!無償的!好!請回!好!接下來進行詢答委員,莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員不在!何新淳委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員不在!接下來進行詢答委員是?沈伯陽委員! |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5429.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5454.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
謝謝主席,那有請法律師好了,我想說是法律師好,沈市長委員好好,市長好那我想說聚焦,因為今天畢竟我們是要討論這一個這兩部法律,那我們想說既然之後要開公聽會那我們先看一下到底哪幾個法條是我們比較需要去注意的那第一個我先快速的一個理解一下這是之前這個是應該是舊有的流程圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5455.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5474.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5484.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5503.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我跟委員簡單報告,如果說是以軍人權益事件處理法來講,您現在看到您修的這個圖,上面這一類的訴願,訴願現在是在國防部的訴願會在處理。那國防部訴願會現在處理的是官司兵即大過以上,或是太處、退伍等等,這些是在訴願這邊來處理。那它借用的是訴願法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5504.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5507.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5528.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5557.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
做了很久也很有成效,但是問題是他都沒有一個法律的一個依據,這個其實也討論了很久。那第三個,申訴,現在懲罰法裡面有相關的一個申訴的機制,那這一次的修法我們就是把懲罰規定了以後,那所有的救濟我們把它單獨列出來,列出來一個公務員有保訓會,但是保訓會不處理軍人,教師有教師的救濟制度,學生有學生的救濟制度,甚至於受刑人都有監獄刑刑法都有規定他的救濟制度, |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5557.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5585.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
維度軍人要嘛借用訴願法,要嘛是自己訂的全保的行政規則,那要嘛是懲罰法裡面只有申訴的這一個,就是這麼一個單獨的條文,不夠完整。所以說這一次我們在整個檢討了之後,我們覺得說應該就軍人的權益的部分,從怎麼樣受理案件,怎麼樣去處理,怎麼樣到外面的司法機關去救濟,都應該要有一個比較完整的一個相關的規劃。最後再跟我們報告,現行的陸海空軍懲罰法裡面,它有名列只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5586.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5604.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
撤職、降階、降級、悔貨等等這種重大懲罰才明定可以到外面的行政機關去救濟。這個108年的大法官的解釋,785號解釋,也有某個程度也有漢格,所以我們都是一併的做了三年多的研討,然後把這個東西單獨出來做一個立法,以上。 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5605.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5625.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那這樣的話其實對我來講尤其是中間權保這一塊他把他這個名畫應該是蠻重要的那但是我自己在看這個法條的時候我覺得有幾個這個第一個當然就是懲罰法這邊有一些列舉這個我覺得沒什麼問題那右邊這個權益事件處理法跟你剛剛講的這個一樣就是說他把這個權保會的這個功能直接把它放上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5625.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5646.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
但這邊我有幾個小地方就是說呢這是之前洪仲秋案先跳過就是說一開始今天這個馬雲軍委員在講的時候他也有提出這個疑慮說這會不會是以前這一個軍神的一個附辟那其實以前在洪仲秋案的時候呢最主要其實是指在非戰時的部分讓他可以進去一般的這一個法院來做審理 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5647.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5647.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5665.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5667.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
人權保障處和法律服務處,現在看起來又要把他們拉回來來做這些剛剛講的第二部法律的審查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5696.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5721.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
報委,謝謝委員。這個中間我們都有在規劃。我跟委員報告,在102年修法之前,軍事法院主要處理的是刑事案件。處理刑事案件,那平時一到司法機關去了之後,我們的人員不是沒有事在那邊,我們把他編到部隊裡面去。他們在部隊裡面,他們可以協助部隊長做很多的事情,尤其近年來的話,做相關的軍事行動,協助這個ROE的這個推廣跟教育等等,這些我們都有在做。 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5722.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5724.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5740.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5743.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5769.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5789.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
對,因為這個司法院應該是要進來,這也是為什麼我們要跟這個司法法制要聯席的一個很重要的原因。然後最後一個我想再問的,這是現行的制度,就是說當然很多人會覺得說,那之後這個它的獨立性、公正性等等之類的,我看到這個巧芯委員的這個提案裡面也有在講說,那是不是要排除特定的人,我覺得這個在公聽會可以討論。 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5789.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5807.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
但我這邊想要問的事情就是說的確就是說再往下一個層次我們今天要有外部人員在這一個全保聽起來是好事嘛對不對要有公平但是我舉個例子不好意思我大概30秒就是說像監獄刑刑法他們之前在做這個監獄相關視察的時候他們也有引進外部委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5807.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5808.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5824.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5851.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這一個僅限的外部人員到底有沒有這個量能,以及說他的破可能在哪裡,我覺得這個可能是之後必須要研議的,不然的話,好不容易設計這個制度,結果呢,本來是要有他的獨立性跟實質生理,結果到最後失去這個獨立性之後,那反而又回歸以前的樣貌,這可能不是我們所樂見的。好,謝謝王偉陽委員,好,陳市長請回。接下來進行詢答委員是鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌委員不在。接下來進行詢答委員徐巧芯委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5866.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5870.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
謝謝主席,我們有請邱國臣部長。邱國臣部長請。許委員好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5879.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5908.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
部長好我想今天針對我們接下來要新增的兩部法律其實對於我國國軍來說我認為都是相當有必要的所以我們原則上會來支持那呢在這個陸海空軍懲罰法裡面那也被一些這個司法人員認為有一些偷渡到了刑事法裡面的制度跟概念那到底合不合宜呢希望能夠好好的來討論畢竟像是我們另外一部叫做公務人員懲戒法 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5909.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5932.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
裡面也沒有塞進刑事法的東西。」好,那我們就先看刑事訴訟法的第230條第一項。下列各員為司法警官、受僱檢察官之指揮之審查犯罪。它裡面包含了警察官長、憲兵隊的官長、士官、依法令屬於特定事項、得刑司法警官之職權者。 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5933.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5954.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
行事訴訟法231條第1項,下列各原為司法檢查,應受檢察官及法令警官之命令偵查犯罪,包含檢察憲兵,依法令與特定事項,得行司法檢查之職權者。 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5955.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5971.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
也就是說呢,檢察官的系統裡面,他們本來就有警察、憲兵、調查局、檢視官等等司法警察或警官可以指揮。那我們部隊的司法案件比較不多的情況之下, |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5972.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5992.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
憲兵隊調查官處理,難道不夠嗎?為什麼要把軍法人員再拉下去?感覺上面一般來說是覺得好像有一點跌床架屋的情形。再來,法紀調查已經搶了原本屬於監察的工作,現在還要多搶一個憲兵隊的工作嗎?在這個設計的部分,布板是怎麼想的? |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5996.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6014.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我跟委員報了兩點,第一個搶憲民工作不會,憲民工作很多,我們實際上是減輕他工作是我們努力的目標。第二個,剛才講到調查官有,有的用疊蟲架,又把軍法放進來。事實上他的內容形態不一樣,調查官他只對一個案件調查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6015.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6037.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
但他的調查結果由誰來判定,而不是調查官來判定。所以這個層次不同。但另外一講,我們累積了那麼多人的經驗,也發現軍法存在必要是有的。為什麼?因為很多案件他已經牽扯到可能跟其他單位、跟其他的部門會有關聯,所以要有軍法。但這個調查官沒有辦法介入。 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6038.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6055.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
所以我想這個分工職長啊,這種過去啊,本來有這種分工有職長,但在質詢當中可能有了偏差。所以我們要重新來律定完了以後,把這個職長劃分很清楚,不會有跌床架屋的問題。所以就是職長必須要清楚,並且跌床架屋嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6056.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6077.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那第二個問題是呢?檢察官介入之前的程序與介入之後的程序是差在哪裡?違紀調查變成屬於行政性質的行為檢察官指揮偵辦就突然是行事性質的偵查很難想像說我們的行政行為怎麼會突然變成行事行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6078.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6078.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6097.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6121.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
你今天檢察官介入前跟介入後的程序,如果是違紀調查是行政的,檢察官指揮偵犯又是行事的,像這個到底是行政還是行事,我們後續法律通過之後,我們應該能夠如何區分呢?我個人有經驗,我跟你們做個簡單的說明,這往往就行政大跟這個好像這個內部,一個檢調的介入以後,它差別很大在哪裡?我們現在講的是我們內部裡面。 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6123.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6137.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
但調查案以後它不代表一個結論所以很多事情一定要經過檢調檢調有它的規則檢調查了一半你不能擅自發表你的言論等於是為了先把它給定罪這是很不道德的 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6138.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6163.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
所以我們為什麼會有這種編組,也就為了防止這個工作,這個現象產生。詳細的部分,我是請法律司長再跟您做簡單的說明。有問題,來跟我們說明一下。我跟委員簡單報告,一個違紀事件,它有的時候外觀看起來是一個違紀事件。那這個違紀事件,當不論是內部的法務人員也好,或是監察官也好,開始調查了之後,有的時候一查才發覺說,喔,這裡面可能有涉嫌違法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6163.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6189.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
他可能有不管是竊盜也好未照文書也好要根據不同的那個態樣但是一開始違法之後那這個時候違法本來就是應該由依法有權偵辦的人來辦那這個時候如果說程序全部再從頭跑一趟那有點浪費就是有點不經濟所以這個相關的借接的制度我們當初跟法務部都有去做過一些協調如果在任何一個違紀案件當你開始查的過程當你發覺他有可能違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6190.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6190.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
庭庭庭庭庭庭庭庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6204.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6224.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
就是偵查當中草案第44條裏面寫到偵查當中的證據應該要報請檢察官同意之後移送權責長官辦理懲罰那如果檢察官他沒有同意呢那檢察官是否會容易陷入兩難以及呢究竟是不是權責長官來辦理懲罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6227.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6245.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
會不會陷入違反偵查不公開的規定?也就是說因為過去這個所謂的偵查在檢察官的體系他是完全一條龍的他要對的對象其實也只有跟法官這邊還有他自己的自律那如果現在的狀況是檢察官同意後要移送的是權責長官的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6247.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6270.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
所謂的偵查不公開的問題,還有檢察官同不同意的問題,他會使得在這個制度上面的運作跟過去我們只是在一般司法檢調的運作有一個很大的落差。所以最後也要請你們補充的是,偵查不公開在這個法裡面它會適用於哪些主體,有沒有包含行政調查? |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6271.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6279.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6301.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6302.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6320.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6343.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
行事偵查不會影響到行政調查,行政調查我們該做的東西我們還是做。」但是因為我們平常是問很多問題,只要一旦進入到行政、行事調查了,你們就很容易告訴我們說,因為他已經進到行事調查,所以行政調查的部分也不予提供。那這樣子來說的話,是不是就對我們在問政上就會產生一些問題呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6344.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6349.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6383.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6384.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
謝謝主席,麻煩邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6394.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6422.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
座位好部長我有幾個問題就教於您第一個我們在去年吧3月6號2023年3月6號我們在這裡討論有關美軍東亞軍備庫存的事情那我們知道這個軍備庫存不叫火藥庫這個軍備庫存是幫助盟友或者美軍輕裝到位的時候可以取得他必要的裝備我以下詢問如果部長認為不宜回答的我都尊重因為當時你在那邊回答說 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6423.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6447.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
確實有跟我方在談,雙方在處理這個事情。像以色列有它的軍備庫,菲律賓也有,其他國家也都有。那一般外界詮釋說,如果東亞軍備庫存在台灣可以設置的話,大概是兩件事情。第一個,它等於是它的裝備來供我們使用。另外一個是,他們的人會來到這裡使用。所以我現在先請教部長, |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6450.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6465.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
去年我們提到的問題到現在也蠻英年了有沒有新的進度?我認為很感謝委員給我這個機會我再次說明這所謂的庫儲這界定很多今天假如說我們做一個維保中心它自然會有一個裝備來像這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6468.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6481.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以我們並不建議講說因為這個事情知識體大,也涉及到政治的問題。你把這些裝備放你,那好端端為什麼要把國外裝備放到我們這邊來?可能會引起政治方面或兩岸之間這些問題。所以軍備跟軍火其實還有一點差別。 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6485.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6511.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
是,有差別,差別蠻大的,所以我們在目前講說這有個提案嘛,都可以談。但目前這些位置、項目、方法經過去年講說在談了,過了一年了,有沒有新的進度,適不適合在這邊討論,請部長回答。我跟委員不好,不太適合在這個地方討論,但是我們的進度不想說特別明確,但最起碼這計畫概略的都已經有個方向了。具體的項目。 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6515.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6539.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
徐巧芯等一倍範圍很廣,從渦輪扇片到甚至於一個螺絲釘,甚至於當然到相關的火藥等等。那你不進入現象,本席尊重。我現在請教,印太安全補充法案在眾議院剛通過,那昨天參議院進行叫做預言投票,大概也會過。那拜登會最快的時間把四套法競速通過成為法律。 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6540.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6543.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6563.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6564.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
通過法案後進行調整,接下來就按程序進行。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6584.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6589.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
草案事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6611.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6624.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
現在在軍事服務的部分大概指的大概是訓練啊等等那個部長有沒有可以揭露的就是有關這些直接提供等於是援助給台灣送給台灣的軍事服務大概涵蓋哪些類別 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6627.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6652.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
法務院建議這邊私下再跟委員做報告本席尊重物資大概也是不宜在這邊討論不過這個是一個正向的啦等於是把台灣第一個當作盟國對待第二個這是提升彼此的互動關係也代表台灣的重要性跟互信的程度所以這個是對台灣來講當然也實質的資源的挹注我最後一分多鐘我要請教部長那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6655.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6676.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
有一個東西叫夜點費,其實跟我們今天要講的懲戒相關有關係。夜點費大概一天是60塊錢,就是值暫勤的時候,值暫勤一天60塊,每一個人。我們值班有夜點費。我們一班暫勤多久會值一次?平均數? |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6678.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6680.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6695.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6720.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
導致非本務的事情一直讓我們基層的官兵、軍官、士官、士兵過度繁重。那我看到部長也承諾在你的任內一定要盡量把它減輕啦。但我也知道這樣的質詢很危險。常常我們在這邊討論要減輕,從上級單位下到基層單位之後每個人又多一大堆報告要打。我是不希望看到這樣的事情。我剛剛為什麼要提這個夜點費? |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6722.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6726.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6748.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6755.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
每個月有多少?如果有一個人他一個月領一千兩百元的夜點費看起來不錯每個月多一千二但事實上你知道嗎他等於三十天值了二十天三十天值了二十天 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6775.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6776.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6794.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6799.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6819.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6824.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
甚至於因為胃病吐血昏倒在廁所治好之後第二天又排他值4、6。 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6827.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6848.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這個拜託部長我現在不就單一個案我現在告訴你說你可以全面先去調這些數據來做一個monitor來做一個觀測看了一下沒有什麼問題就算了有問題調整這個時候可以適度的減輕不必要的那如果是人力不足也該補充好不好所以我請我們總督這個地方要做一個通牌來做一個好謝謝我們也請總督注意一下好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6853.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6876.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
接下來請陳佩玉委員陳佩玉委員陳佩玉委員陳佩玉委員不在現在請馬文君委員謝主席麻煩請部長來邱部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6885.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6886.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6909.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6911.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
在這裡我們看到很多軍紀的問題層出不窮而且現在在我們兩岸或者在我們區域周邊其實在不穩定的情況之下軍紀是非常重要的這個部分我們同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6924.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6938.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
應該要趨嚴而且要有相當的一個工具手段可以作為維持紀律的這樣子的一個條件可是不代表我們可以任意的或者空白授權的方式因為這樣子會衍生未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6940.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6945.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
更大的問題。」我現在簡單舉出幾個,因為像這個部分,當初我想要請教一下,因為在新訂的法案裡面,對於軍人的懲罰會依照他的身份來區分,可是這個過去當然在我們的軍法裡面是有的,比如說撤職、降階、記過身屆, |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6962.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6963.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6981.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7009.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我跟委員報告,在以往我們有軍法方面事項的規定都有,就在執行當中有時候認知不同,所以我們這一回修法主要把重點放哪裡,哪個層級可以做什麼決定,把它也劃分得很清楚。所以剛剛委員講的,它這個好像有點重複了,你要懲罰它,它要受到刑罰之責,我覺得當初好像也是這樣,因為你要把它給處理掉,它才能夠接受刑法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7009.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7014.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7031.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7040.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
有些我們說我們贊成你屈言可是不代表你可以這樣子這麼嚴重還包括你現在是加進多加了一個就是可以剝奪或減少他的退出給予這個過去是沒有的你什麼樣的狀況你可以讓人家的退出給予你用你的這個懲罰法的條件就因為你如果犯了刑法刑法還要重到說判判 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7060.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7073.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
判刑一年以上,他才可以去減少他的退出給予。」可是你在懲罰法裡面,你居然可以剝奪或減少高達五分之一到二分之一耶!這個是非常嚴重耶!什麼樣的態樣你會做到這樣子的一個懲處? |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7079.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7094.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
其實兩個問題我跟委員簡單的報告委員您說我們過去在處理軍法過去在處理刑事責任我舉個簡單的例子今天有一個官兵跑到了不正當場所到裡面去吸毒那他進出吸毒他就犯法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7094.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7108.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
但是進出不正當場所本來我們裡面有規範不准去不正當場所那他放假期間他跑到不正當場所去他有行政責任這個行政責任要處理懲罰法裡面現在也有嘛你吸毒然後不當了場所你現在懲罰法裡面就有啦你可以記過啊你累積三個大櫃以後他還是要太儲嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7116.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7136.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
酒駕、造勢,有刑事責任,但現在的官兵酒駕、造勢會太處。懲罰法裡面也有啊,你現在有很多他都直接太處啦,你懲罰法現在有的,你現在只要軍事官兵他喝酒、酒駕或者不一定要造勢,你也是把他太處啦,這個還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7139.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7158.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我現在很就是我們很持平的我們同意可是你像現在增加進來就是你怎麼可以有什麼樣的太陽可以讓你去剝奪或減少人家的退出機遇這是一個那你只要犯了刑法他本來就不行啊對不對你如果酒駕你們之前來說啊那之前沒有發現就被他退伍了那是我們的問題你居然沒有發現說他 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7167.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7170.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
如果他今天犯案,我們是不可以同意他退伍的。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7171.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7197.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
謝謝委員,我跟委員報告,剛講的是回應委員第一個問題,第二個問題就是剝奪減少退出給予,過去,這個也參考公務員的相關規範,過去一個人如果退伍了之後,我們對他的懲罰手段是很有限的,譬如說今天有一個人,他在在職期間,他做了很多不當的行為,退伍了之後兩年或是三年,你才發覺他這個行為非常嚴重,甚至於有損到國家安全的時候, |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7197.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7200.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
在行政上他必須要負的責任。」因為這個是你單位的問題可是你一旦法把它定下去你為了一個兩個甚至你自己不查結果你會去影響到很多其他人的權益因為你有這條法它很多就會被用上了就是你這樣的剝奪跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7214.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7222.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
檢免其實是不合理的因為它不符比例原則因為你是懲戒法在這裡因為時間的關係我想這個都還可以還可以再討論另外一個就是當初洪仲秋案為什麼會特別有第10條就是你長官如果要做什麼樣的命令命令的時候他必須要有文書的資料可是你們這一次把文書這個部分拿掉了他主要的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7241.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7241.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7259.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7261.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7285.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7297.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7313.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7331.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
從開始1月到現在,我們軍中已經發生了13起這樣子的自殺的案件,死亡。另外3起是自殺未遂。這裡面當然有3起是在中科院發生的,而且它的時間點很特別。我今天為什麼要特別提出來,還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7331.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7340.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
擬事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。七、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7360.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7371.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
沒有上班的時間為什麼會自殺?」我現在特別提出來是有一些如果是有不當的指示或者有一些他們認為不妥的那會面臨到什麼樣的問題這個跟法都有相關所以就這個部分我們還是希望可以清楚的說明白因為洪仲丘案當時大家引起我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7382.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7399.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
整個大家社會輿論的壓力所以軍法就很快的把它拿掉那你現在不要再製造更多的問題我們同意其實你應該在管教上面有更多的工具手段可是不代表可以借用這個機會會衍生更多的問題的法條在這裡出現好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7403.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7426.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
謝謝馬文俊委員來部長視像請回我剛剛說的那個也請查查一下齁有13起的這樣子的不能只有表面的理由背後的因素可能要查清楚因為不管時間點或其他的因素我們希望可以查查清楚他已經不是個案如果是檢調的話我覺得軍方基於保護炮轍也應該要求檢調我要一個答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7427.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7429.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7458.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7460.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我想我就直接請法律事務室省市長來,省市長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7467.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7485.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
您剛才特別提到有關我們的法制官、法務人員的人才培養。我非常認同你的看法。我舉一個重要的例子。多年前,海軍在做年度的戰術總驗收,在對抗的過程中間,因為有一位艦隊長帶著操演部隊離開了防空識別區。 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7490.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7495.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7513.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7532.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們講的不是交戰準則或法規不同的部隊不同層級那不能再沿用用標準作為程序那麼當時這個現象我們今天聽到你講如果而後在重大的演訓過程不管是聯兵旅程級以上空軍聯隊以上或海軍艦隊以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7534.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7543.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
如果他的操演指揮官旁邊有一位法務官,適時提供整個ROE在看法、建言上,這種錯誤會減免。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7557.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7572.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案 案。二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案》案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案》案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案》案。七、審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7581.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7595.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
有參照美軍的精神有降階,但是產生了一個例外現象,細節分析我們在修正文裡面提供了,就是說美軍的忠孝是服役年限是28年, |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7597.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7598.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7616.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7619.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
公平處置人權保障環境過程中間有特殊案例要給他做一個修正的方法。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7637.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7641.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
降階、逼退草案案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案。七、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7663.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7688.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
謝謝陳永康委員。司長請回。接下來進行詢問委員陳俊宇委員。好,謝謝主席。那有請我們邱部長。邱文正部長請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7697.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7710.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好部長早部長早好謝謝部長那也謝謝我們今天列席的各位這個我們國防部的相關同仁喔那我們今天要審查的是陸海空軍這個懲罰法還有這個軍人權益事件的處理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7713.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7742.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那這兩部法對於我們國軍的兄弟姊妹來說他們的權益影響可謂相當的甚大那在修法的這個整個過程當中也應該要未雨綢繆考慮到將來可能發生的這個情境那首先我想就跨國軍事交流的這個問題來做一個討論有鑑於我們台灣與這個其他國家常有軍事上的交流那層級還有規模也都逐漸的在提升當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7743.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7748.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那可能有互相派駐的這個授訓、協訓甚至是參加軍演的這個機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7750.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7772.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那兩國的國軍之間的互動會牽涉到法令適用及司法管轄的相關問題。歷史上來看,過去美國協防台灣的時候,若美軍在台犯事,美軍可主張有外交豁免權,不受我國司法管轄,並且將美軍引渡回美國來受審。 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7773.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7781.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
而後來歷經談判簽署協議之後才明示美軍在台沒有這個所謂的豁免特權。如今當年的這個協議條約內容也已經作廢了。那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7788.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7816.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我國跟盟國的這個軍事合作密切度再度來到這個高點。」我想請教部長對於可能會遇到的兩種情境第一是他國的軍人在台灣違法是否會接受我國這個司法管轄權的管轄第二是我國的國軍在他國若有違法的情勢是否會受到該國法律的管轄或是能夠交由本國自己來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7818.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7843.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我跟委員報告,能請問法律司司長跟你做簡單的說明嗎?謝謝委員。委員您剛剛前面也講得很清楚,當初有中美協防的時候,那是另外一個階段,那個是有特別的規定。那現在您舉的這個例子,如果外國的訓練不論是度假還是交流簡單的這種來這邊受訓或是開會等等,他如果在我們國家犯了法的話,當然是由我們國家來管轄。 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7844.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7870.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我們國家同樣的派到國外去念書的或是說做其他的度假休假也好他的身份雖然軍人在那邊犯了法的話也是由他們來管轄只有我記得外交部他們那邊有一個相關的外交人員的豁免那個不是不是在這個交流的範圍那個是固定的一些特定的人那他們有那個在那個交流豁免範圍之內的其他的這種一般的交流就是看在哪裡辦法當地國不會放棄他的管轄權 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7871.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7893.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
所以未來我們臺灣的部分就是會遵照這個方式來處理了目前是朝著這個好那在現今的這種國際局勢發展之下那可能預期跨國間的這種軍事交流會更加的頻繁而我們跟這個軍事合作的對象也可能會沒有邦交的這種情況越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7894.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7913.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
草案案件,可能牽涉到高度的政治因素以及我們國家這個地位的問題,我想請國防部這邊務必應該要積極的與他國來做討論,在平等的這個原則之下避免事件發生之後產生不必要的這種爭端,來引發所謂的這種政治衝突的事件。 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7915.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7940.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
再來是我想我們有關軍事審判制度的這個議題國防部在今年3月曾經舉辦過以軍事審判為主題的學術論壇那包括國防部的徐副部長及最高檢察署的刑總長都有與會那由這個法律司進行報告建議未來可以設置軍事行政訴訟庭恢復軍事檢查及這個軍法官參審軍法的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7946.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7952.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
以及恢復軍事審判一到兩個審級。」我想請教部長就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7953.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7974.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這場研討會所建議的內容都是我們國防部所主張的嗎?我跟委員報告這兩件,第一個是講說我們對於沒有邦交國家如果說是涉及人員違法,我想這不光國防部注意,而且外交部跟法務部也會介入,所以到時候我們把這個議題討論法,聯合其他部會一道來討論。 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7978.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7980.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7994.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8004.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我想這有必要大家先做溝通了解所以我想說這個都是共同的我們期望如何但他們可以把他們有沒有困難也做說明將來協調合作的這種所產生的問題比較好解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8011.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8034.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那依照我們我國現行的這個平時的這個司法還有暫時的軍審的制度來說平時的這個軍法案件交由一般的司法機關來這個審理那軍方可能會有疑慮的說部隊的管理有別於一般的機關是否能夠適當的處分和判決那這個部分國防部應該要如何來觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8035.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8062.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這的確文憑發掘的問題,我要跟各位舉一個很簡單的例子。說在這個營區裡面有幾個兵員鬥毆,都由後來交給了外民一般法律以後,他之後審判結果是不予處分,因為他覺得你這個鬥毆根本沒有造成大家公共的危害,那這個的認知不同就會產生很大的差異,這也就以後我們要強化的地方。 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8064.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8091.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好,那我想我們這個軍事審判的制度能夠這個完備的話我希望我們能夠更加的齊全這是攸關我們國家安全的大事那我們這個不論在法條上的修訂或是在審判制度上的變革都應該更加的謹慎將所有可能涉及的因素納進來通盤考量更必須要顧及我們官兵的個人權益以及這個人權的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8092.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8117.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
這個部分我會請我們國防部相關部會應該要對於這個部分來加重來嚴以辦理。市長這我們努力的目標,重要目標我們會努力。好,那謝謝部長、謝謝市長。謝謝委員。謝謝陳俊宇委員。部長請回。那我們接下來進行詢問之前先宣告,我們待會在吳思堯委員詢問完我們休息五分鐘,還是在陳冠廷委員休息五分鐘? |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8120.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8123.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8147.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8162.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
部長好行政院版的《陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案》對於軍官、士官、士兵的懲罰除原有的撤職、降階、降級、忌過、罰薪、申戒、減速之外新增了剝奪 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8164.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8184.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
退出給予在權責長官核定懲罰後,國防部可以剝奪退伍金、退休奉、善養金、退出給予生活補助費、優惠存款、利息等。」請問部長,新增這個剝奪、退出給予的懲罰原因為何? |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8185.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8199.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
就剛才我發現事實上有概略跟委員報告就是因為發覺他如果這個人要受到處分要罰款但他下個月就退了或者退了以後才發覺有這個案子出來要往前追 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8200.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8209.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8229.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8250.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
其他有什麼考慮的嗎?沒有,我們大概就是參考公務員制定的一個規定,然後其他沒有特殊的原因,因為退伍以後他也無職可撤、無薪可罰,然後就是那些記過等等對他來講的話,已經沒有任何的懲罰的一個效果,所以說我們也參考公務員相關的規定,我們這次有增訂了這個規範。 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8253.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8276.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
對於剝奪軍人的退出給予,原本在《陸海空軍軍官事關服役條例》當中,它就有規定現役軍事官犯內亂、外患或貪污罪、判處有期徒刑之刑確定而未宣告緩刑或因案判處死刑無期徒刑確定者以及一、陸海空軍懲罰法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8278.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8301.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
定受撤職處分,不發退儲給予。」現在2016年我有看到11月民進黨有修正《陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例》加入現役退役軍人如洩漏機密、觸犯國家安全法、國家機密保護法等罪,將事刑責輕重,剝奪其權術部分退休奉。也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8307.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8322.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
原來軍人依照陸海空軍懲罰法遭撤職或犯有洩漏、機密、出安、國安等刑責,可以剝奪退儲給予,那這次的修法是不是擴大了剝奪退儲給予的適用範圍? |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8326.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8340.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我跟委員報告原來規範服役條例規範的那些大概都是刑事責任附帶的後面的那個退出就是可能我記得是判刑確定之後什麼樣的刑度可能是剝奪他50%、20%等等原來是在服役條例裡面那樣規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8344.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8370.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這次我們在修正的時候,我們有參考公務員相關的規範,我們對於已經退的人,然後發覺他在服役期間,一定是在服役期間,現役軍人身份的時候,他所犯的過犯責任的行政責任,可能會沒有辦法去做一個相關的處理。所以主要還是針對服役期間嗎?一定是服役期間。服役之後的行為規範。退伍以後不能懲罰。我要跟國防部提醒一下, |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8372.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8392.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
軍人的尊嚴我們國防部要捍衛實際上軍人為我們國家犧牲奉獻很大你動輒如果說要擴大今天懲罰的範圍連退休金都要納入就非常審慎這一點不知道部長同不同意我一定同意我自己也是軍人一份子嘛對 幫我支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8392.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8415.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那我要問,按此次修正的第五條、第六條規定,包括違背或逾越法令執行勤務,違反長官命令或服務機關規範,待於監督所屬人員執行勤務或服務機關管理規範,其他於執行勤務時之不當行為,故意觸犯刑事法律,無故使用或持有毒品、迷幻藥、麻醉 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8416.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8441.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
藥品、酒駕拒絕酒測、性騷擾、性霸凌、違反廉政倫理行政或行政中立規範、未依法兼職或經營商業這些違紀行為都可以做重大懲處。」我想請問這重大懲處是包含20萬元以上財產懲罰嗎?上述的違紀行為是不是都有可能遭到剝奪、退儲、給予?有沒有可能? |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8441.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8446.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
保委員對他確實20萬以上的這些相關的懲罰是屬於重大懲罰是對那會 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8449.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8472.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
廓延到剝奪退儲給予。」我跟委員報告第5條第6條的規範第5條它就是勤務上的行為你在扶勤的時候的行為第6條原則上就是休假已經到營外去了我講的是會不會到剝奪退儲給予應該會但是如果說在營外的行為除非是列舉的那些事項我現在要講的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8473.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8493.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
跟陸海空軍刑法不同,陸海空軍懲罰法較偏行政處罰。我認為,在行政懲處上對於剝奪退休金這麼嚴厲的懲處要謹慎,非常謹慎。公務人員違法失職需經懲戒法院的審理後才可以剝奪他的退休金。軍人有違紀行為,按照這個修正草案,請問是誰來剝奪他? |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8495.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8515.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
包委,我們將來會劃一個權責的區分,不是每一個人都可以...你是權責長官指派人員調查後核定懲處嘛對對於重大懲處要召開專案評議會、懲罰諮詢會嘛我必須說在公正度、嚴謹度跟受懲軍人懲罰權益保障救濟上面我覺得你覺得可以跟懲戒法院達到相同的標準嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8518.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8534.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這就是我剛剛強調的我真的拜託國防部這個部分要非常審慎嚴謹不能變成是行政的濫權跟質疑請國防部審慎以上好謝謝羅志祥委員部長、市長請回接下來進行詢問委員林思明委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8544.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8571.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
謝謝主席,我請部長來,部長請評委又好部長好部長我想針對說我們今年開始的義務役開始實施義務役的人數總共是多少?那迄今為止有多少逃兵? |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8572.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8573.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8596.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8602.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
草案事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8618.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8636.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。七、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。八、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8648.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8669.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這方面做法最簡單的就是他一來以後就跟他說明違法犯紀的利弊。另外就是他對他的照顧。我們也知道一個由民轉兵的訓練過程,對一個來講說他承受壓力是可以想像的。所以我們多方的來輔導他。 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8671.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8690.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以說入伍我們有一個跟他做相關的入伍的未來入伍之後會有遇到什麼狀況跟他做說明入伍之後有沒有什麼關懷的機制就是要對他照顧不管建制幹部也好但是我們有沒有什麼樣的一個這個機制關懷機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8694.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8723.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
假設說我們發覺這個兵好像心理很不穩定,那我們軍中要怎麼樣來輔導他?這個是就心理輔導人員我們有的,但是不見得講說目前人力那麼充沛。但我跟委員報告,我們本身基本上軍中就有三個門卡可以來幫他。第一個就是他的建制單位裡的這些同仁,他的班長等等這些基層幹部,他有問題的話班長、排長、輔導長、聯長都可以出面,這是第一層。 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8724.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8724.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8740.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8758.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我比較想知道的就是我們的關懷機制剛剛你提到你有各種的一個做法但實際上我們有沒有軍中有一個關懷的單位特別對這些義務役特別去做如果在軍中發覺這個刑機很可疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8761.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8780.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
趕快找他來做相關的一個心理輔導,有沒有哪一個單位的一個設置,有沒有建置這樣的一個單位?委員好,我是政戰局副局長,那您報告,因為新訓來講它有一個特性,所有的新兵都從社會過來,它非常非常讓幹部感覺很陌生,所以我們在編制營級, |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8782.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8808.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
唯一在營籍有編制新副官的舊新訓單位,讓他能夠有一個專業人員在這個營,帶著各連的副校長跟繼承幹部,能夠掌握到我們所有新兵相關的新訓掌握。發覺有異樣的,他會跟新副官講,希望有必要會再做轉介,還有會跟他的家屬來做聯繫,一定會親自跟他聯繫,了解他的家庭背景,以及做一個管教的互助。 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8808.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8821.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
是,我想為了這個就是我們預防新兵他入伍的不適應嘛所以在這邊就是希望我們這個國防部對這些入伍新兵的心理輔導要設一個輔導的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8826.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8849.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
的機構或相關關懷機制做建制。另外,對於今年2月22日國防部法律事務司呈表示,在義務恢復一年後,內部有討論恢復軍事審判的可能性。另外,立法院法治局在今年1月底也提出重大軍法案件妥肅增審相關問題延期報告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8852.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8871.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
指出,根據國防部的統計,近年來軍法案件每年平均有467件,因而也造成訴訟期間的冗長。因此,建議若有速審速決的必要,可嚴以改依《軍事審判法》來追溯處罰。 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8873.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8897.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那我想請問這個部長對於這個國防部是否要恢復軍事審判以及是否針對特定的案件一如軍人的酒駕還有剛才講的逃兵吸毒泄漏機密或者抗命犯上等恢復為軍事審判的機制目前我們內部的討論是大概是怎樣的一個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8897.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8908.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
國防委員報告,只要對我們國軍的戰略性本務推動有利的其他附加的方法,我們都樂見。回復軍事審判法的方向是要往回復軍事審判法的方向來做嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8920.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8921.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8935.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8955.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這個功能他是像現在我們今天提出來的軍人權益事件處理法他就有在行政案件行政類的案件將來可能會有功能如果法順利通過的話那至於過去軍事審判處理的是刑事案件那是不是要回復到過去軍事法院還要處理刑事案件確實還是有一些學者專家都有不同的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8956.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8956.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8981.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9002.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我想過去我們對於軍事審判大家被都在質疑的問題就是報案軍事審判的獨立性、公正性與程序的正當性那對於過去這些被質疑的點那國防部我想你們要去研擬說是否恢復軍事審判時要去做相關這些方向的一個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9004.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9032.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
來改變過去外界對你們所提出的批評。」所以我是還是希望說你們往這個方向來討論恢復軍事審判我想這個方向還是對我們現在的普通法院因為案件量這麼多我想這個恢復軍事審判應該是有它正面積極的意義的謝謝林思敏委員我們論點表達完整請回座謝謝接下來進行詢答的委員是洪森翰委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9048.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9048.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9059.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9066.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9087.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9091.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9114.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9133.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
我剛才聽到部長其實也坦承說目前其實在軍中輔導的人力其實不足夠我剛才如果沒聽錯的話部長是這樣說的其實也不足但是現在的問題是那到底不足是多不足那想先問部長部長你知不知道現在新府人員的邊線比現在是多少一個新府官負責多少的縣員 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9134.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9156.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
但我們要相信一比四百個人左右啦沒錯齁你看一下現在新府人目前編制大概是四百六那現有大概三百九編憲比大概八十五如果以16萬的軍力出估的話大概一位新府官大概負責四百元沒有錯可是問題來了就像剛剛部長說你也覺得不夠那到底多不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9158.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9185.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我們要達到的標準是什麼數字?目前一比四百,對不對?那如果不夠,那是要達到什麼數字?部長。是,我跟委員報告,我所謂不夠是怎麼樣?講說專業人員,當然越多越好。但話小,軍人有主任務,而且我們平常領導統一,為什麼這單位裡有這種建制?建制層層主管他就要負這個責,這也是領導統一的一環。是。所以這個來彌補,所以為什麼基本上我們就有三道關卡, |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9186.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9208.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
可以做這些心腹的工作。」不,我同意,絕對我們不是靠心腹資源來去處理所有的問題,我完全同意。可是就目前為止,相比於其他的單位,我剛才說到包括像在醫療機構,包括像在校園裡面,其實大概都有一個我們心腹官設要多少編制的一個目標。 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9209.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9222.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
現在我們確實看到大家越來越重視在軍中的這些事件裡面目前反而是在軍隊裡面是沒有的沒有一個目標所以我說夠還是我說不夠其實都沒有一個基準沒有一個標準現在是1比400但我們是不是要做到1比350 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9228.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9233.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9257.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9277.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
預先來做準備,而不是現在有點像是有一天過一天,或者是反正有多的我就用,沒多的我也不預作準備,可是目前就不夠啊,副長。是,我跟委員報告,我是所以剛剛就講說,概略不夠或夠,我是針對專業人員。專業人員到底要有多少數據,這種可以大陸來一個課題研討。 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9278.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9280.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9299.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9312.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
部長,我們現在在講的新婦人單指的是專業的嘛,他有這個方面專業的嘛,不是我今天要用各個不同的功能的我全部硬把它算進去,我覺得是在專業的部分,下面部長我想給你看下面一個數據喔,再往下,再往下,再往下,好 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9314.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9325.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
不想我們現在2024年的時候我們兵員假設我們16萬假設我現在就要維持這個該幸福人員1比4400的這配比的話其實我們預計2029年的時候我們的兵員會到26萬哦將近27萬哦如果我就算要維持1比400 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9335.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9352.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
照理來說我的新府人增加的數字而且我也假設就是剛才說的85%的邊線比的話我新府人會需要增加到650甚至編制人員要增加到765恐怕是比現在要多出300位其實這個數字是很高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9353.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9371.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那部長,針對這個數字,我們接下來5年內要再增加300位喔,部長有沒有什麼想法?可以啊,要逐年進步嘛,現在兵員如果來的151多,從151當中也可以做一個選員啦。部長,你現在講沒有錯,但是我現在就是說,這個事情是我們要提前預備的,部長應該同意嘛,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9373.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9392.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
因為我們就算從我們的政戰學院裡面的心理跟社工學系來看的話他們的這個系所畢業人數其實也不夠支撐這300個啊對不對所以我們勢必恐怕是要從沒錯要從義務域的域官或者是新府官裡面來去支撐可是我們又需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9393.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9416.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
是專業的,你也不能濫於充數。」所以我們現在可能要做的事情是什麼?我們現在變成是不是甚至要提前預備去到我們教育部下面有相關的心理或社會工作諮商相關的系所裡面,擴大來跟他們爭取,鼓勵他們來報考、預官、預試。你才有辦法因應你接下來5年要300位的這個需求啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9417.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9423.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9445.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9468.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我們不預先準備是不行的我為什麼今天一定要把這量化的數據拿出來的原因是因為我們必須在量化的數據裡面才可以評估我們提前的準備跟作業的工作足不足夠我們的方向上能不能夠這不是我平常到大街上面去叫就可以叫來的或者是我自己去海巡我現在軍中的人員就可以多找一些來不是這是我們要先做準備的事情啊好不好部長所以我剛才說 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9469.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9486.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
第一,我們應該先建立接下來我們邊縣比的標準是什麼?應該仿照我們在大專校園裡面或者是醫療機構裡面我們可以專業的評估到底需要多少人力這個是專業評估這部分交給國防部可是要有一個標準我們才有目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9487.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9489.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9501.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9525.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所以我們可不可以先,第一個部長建立標準沒有問題嘛對不對?沒有問題,是第二個,我剛才說到5年後,我們要多300,至少300位啊那這部分提前準備的話,假設不是只是從政戰學院的話從外部的校園裡面,要去找到專業的系所裡面,去找到他們考預冠預試這個也要相關的工作計畫來去進行,擴大的招募或優先的招募,這部分部長有可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9525.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9526.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9553.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9577.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
主席還有各位委員大家好。那麼有請國防部部長、邱部長。同時也請這個省市長、法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9581.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9584.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9606.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9630.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那麼對於看到今天國防部所提出來的陸海空軍懲罰法的修正案我在這裡我是感到非常的佩服因為這次的修法其實牽動的面向非常廣可以算是幾乎像是全文翻修當然也是希望能夠配合這個時代的進步然後來做一些新的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9631.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9643.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
修正草案案件事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9651.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9652.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9665.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9682.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
但是呢,在你們這次的修法裡面呢,我看到了有一個比較嚴重的問題,就是你們在第三章調查程序的第二節裡面,你們卻定定了很多都是跟形式、呃,程序、形式偵查有關的,呃,呃,形式調查有關的相關規定, |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9686.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9695.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。七、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。八、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9714.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9740.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
去定定刑事偵查還有刑事調查程序。是,謝謝委員,我跟委員報告我們過去在實踐上面102年之前軍法還在,早期的時候陸海空軍懲罰法從最早民國19年當時那個立法體力當時就是如果一個官兵的犯忌的行為他是很嚴重的話就是送軍法就會進入到所謂的刑事訴訟的那個軍事審判的這些相關的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9746.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9770.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
尤其106年之後,軍法也已經都移到普通的司法機關去,那部隊畢竟跟外面的社會是跟公務機關都不太一樣,跟學校公務機關都不太一樣,它比較獨立。那在部隊裡面發生了任何的這些違紀的相關的這些違紀的行為的時候,常常會有外界,不論是民意機關,不論是委員也好,都會希望了解說,你部隊到底知不知道發生了什麼事情? |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9770.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9771.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
國防法務官、軍法官、檢察官作相關偵查程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9789.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9809.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
可是事實上我還是認為這樣的法體律的規範其實是有很大的疑慮的似乎是不適合定在陸海空軍懲罰法要不然你就把它定在軍審判法或者是刑事訴訟法裡面的相關規定可能都還比較適合所以你們現在定在這邊感覺上是非常突兀而且不合體律的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9812.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9813.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9829.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9829.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9844.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9865.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
所以你們是真的沒有需求還是說是因為這個上面的意旨然後不讓你們提?我們就是跟考試院研討了之後這兩年我們用國防法務官考試的方式來取代去年已經開始考這個考試可是您國防法務官他的職權跟軍法官的職權其實落差很大他不能取代軍法官而且在戰時的時候現在其實台灣就已經說是這個全世界最危險的國家隨時都可能會發生戰爭萬一在發生戰爭的時候我們的軍法官從何而來? |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9874.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9877.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9899.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9902.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我認為說其實國防部這邊其實要更有尬詞一些就是我們就需要軍法人員我們就需要軍法官這是維持軍紀維持紀律這個非常重要的一個人力資源你這個我們講養兵千日用在一時不能講說現在軍事審判法因為這個在平時沒有適用軍事審判法的必要所以我們就不培養軍法官我覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9924.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9951.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
邏輯是錯誤的。」是我跟委員報告就考試當初我們在談的時候就說軍法官在軍事審判法裡面有定義他就是院長、檢察長、責任檢察官、庭長然後軍事檢察官、軍事審判官那如果平時沒有軍事審判現在目前平時沒有如果平時沒有軍事審判當時他們認為說那你做這個考試考完了之後沒有辦法派出可能會有落差是我想這邊還是要跟國防部再講這個在依照軍事審判法裡面的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9953.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9982.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
主動權事由國防部這裡提出,考試院只是配合辦理。」你們不要變成是考試院來主導、來領導、來決定軍法官的考試。這是完全違背法理的。也希望這個軍法司這邊能夠有更積極的作為。好,謝謝。好,謝謝歐小林委員。謝謝委員。好,司長跟部長請回。接下來進行詢答委員是陳冠廷委員。陳冠廷委員詢答結束後休息5分鐘。是喔,OK啦。好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9992.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9992.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
你好,我們請部長來,部長請崇煒好 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10005.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10024.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
部長好,那我想近期美國對台灣的這個軍公案有些延宕,一方面是疫情,一方面是俄烏戰爭,還有可能是中東戰爭的影響。那美國國會議員有建議讓台灣自行來建造美國設計的武器系統,來去解決目前遇到的這種延宕的狀況。 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10025.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10026.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
國防部有注意到這些新聞嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10037.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10057.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
國防部這個是主要工作之一啊,所以一定會注意的。是,那我想我們現在美國累計目前為止軍售項目大概還有,沒有交付的還有190億美元的這些軍售項目,那這都是我們迫切所需要的武器,那我們都希望能夠儘早來斬獲。我想請教一下,在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10058.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10082.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
文章裡面有提到,Politico上面的文章裡面有提到說我們面臨到的挑戰就是說在台生產是一回事,但是有洩密的風險,這個部分大家有沒有檢討說什麼樣的方向去克服?我今天講的一個洩密是大家都顧慮的,但我們要怎麼樣來防止洩密案件這也是平常我們教育訓練工作之一,不光教育訓練而且還去督管 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10083.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10086.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10102.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10105.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10121.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10142.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那目前溝通的狀況跟可能性為何?的確這個工作不但在溝通,我們現在有很多國內有產製的能力,但有些裡面比較機敏的設置不見得有,要透過這個管道,透過管道會有顧慮,會有泄密的問題。所以我們這個一開始沒有來克服,但是這個工作推動沒有停止過。 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10143.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10143.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10164.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10166.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10184.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10195.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
負責陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。七、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。八、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10212.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10233.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
僱用的一些非法的一些相關的勞工。」我想請教一下,我們檢討過去國防部營區的這些承包的有沒有施工人員清澈?那有的話是認車還是認人?還是認章不認人?我跟委員報告,叫施工單位他有了這個工程外包,但外包不丟給施工單位我們就不管了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10233.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10240.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
條文修正草案案。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10255.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10262.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我沒有叫你介入啊,我沒有邀請國防部來介入這些個案。我沒有說能耐,但我們在法規平常定了,該由勞務單位他們去界定,如果預約了就就接受法罰則。 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10273.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10296.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
好,了解了解,如果是這樣的說法,那就這樣做,反正就是有,我們都有法律嘛,那我們就是誰違法我們再法嘛。不是這樣的,委員會聽名單安排啦,很多例證嘛,你只要有涉到違法事件以後,軍法該要出面一樣出面啦,我們要有抗告,但他最後責任,我們一定會找一個老人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10297.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10311.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
在軍方在查明這個進入營區的單位的時候,他們是認什麼?認他們的這個,他們有一個clearance嗎?有一個這個章嗎?還是他們的這個人員的這個管制是怎麼樣的做法? |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10313.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10339.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
有識別證嗎?那我們識別證要提供的話是不是要先做查核?那當然要查核了那查核的話這一次就是就是很不幸剛好有發生這樣的事情委員提這案子我知道他沒有在營區裡面喔他隔開的喔他出入口啊等等跟這營區並沒有進去喔所以沒有進去營區所以這件事情是沒有進入營區所以沒有相關的這個密等就已經那都成功的去堵住了嗎?就沒有這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10340.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10364.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
沒有直接影響到安全的危害。」好,謝謝。那最後關於這個美國通過對台安全的法案,那其中有19億美元是用於補充台灣的軍事物資,還有21美元的軍事融資。我想請教部長,我們未來的規劃大概是用什麼樣的方向,這些部分?直接是在哪個地方?大概規劃的方向?跟委員報告,這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10366.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10391.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
參議院的部分已經在今天早上9點40分也已經通過了這是最新的狀況跟委員做個報告那19億的部分是指定給美國國防部來做使用那它在法規裡面所預定的範圍是台灣及區域的夥伴國家有包括回補美國國防部原台的裝備以及對台的軍事服務軍事教育訓練這跟剛剛那個昭偉這邊所詢問的內容是類似的 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10396.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10413.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
最後一個問題,共軍進入台海周邊的警示,現在我們國防部有說不斷精進調整工部的方式,現在是避免敵人用縫隙對我國任之作戰,所以取消侵擾共機的進行,想請教一下為什麼部長我們要做這樣子的調整? |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10414.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10434.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
請摘要回答我調整好像越來越清楚嘛就是說不在那個好像把它弄了一點點越界越到哪裡我就列出來啊我不知道哪個差別假如你就左右過去的話是沒有過去的話會公佈畸形那現在是就基本上就是沒有做這樣的做法就是取消公佈青老共濟的畸形簡化相關的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10435.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10452.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那我們來看一下日本的方面的話他們會有一個不管是摘要把這些無人機的機型還有海軍的這些或者是中國來進入他們的這個警示範圍的部分都會把它標示出來我想請教一下為什麼我們過去會把中共的機型相關的標示出來現在沒有是擔心哪一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10453.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10463.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
國防、司法及法制委員會第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10483.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10486.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10502.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10503.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10843.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10851.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
好,我們恢復開會。接下來進行巡討委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。接下來巡討委員吳思堯委員。謝謝主席,有請部長。來,邱部長請。那另外可能政治作戰局、政治作戰局的張副局長要陪同。政治作戰局。對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10868.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10885.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我之前針對這個主題是跟這個玉玲局長討論比較多我長期在教育文化委員會部長各位國防部的同仁那我想對於身心靈的關懷從教育部門尤其是高教端 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10885.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10898.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我願意來分享我們在改進的經驗當然軍中的管理不同但是我想心服是一個專業我希望大家能夠藉由私咬的分享能夠給予國防部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10901.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10911.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
在針對心腹機制是不是層層失靈的部分,我們能夠給彼此更多的啟發。畢竟,國軍一定要身心靈健康,國軍強,國家才會強。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10917.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10944.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我把我長期追蹤的教育部門教育部門從國教到高教就5年來學生的自殺死亡率成長1.66倍而人數攀升很關鍵的一件事情也就是我要告訴國防部的同仁們是我們的心腹機制有沒有接住這樣需要協助的珍貴生命 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10945.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10960.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
以教育部門來講,自殺五年來有477位年輕的生命離開了,但是各級學校跟國軍一樣有三級的輔導機制,可是以大學端來講,2021年的統計,65.5%的自殺身亡的年輕生命是學校漏接的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10972.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10981.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
從來沒有去向新府機制來提出救助的訊號,連SOS發出的機會都沒有。」這是大學。 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10983.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11006.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
國軍呢我非常認真的去找了我們的資料也謝謝你們的提供這幾年來五年來國軍的自殺通報包括以稅跟未稅總共有158人自殺通報我們接住了多少人只接住了11人進入福島只有11人換言之高達93.1% |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11009.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11030.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
自殺通報的人我們的心腹機制接不住。」那以非常難過的自殺死亡的人數這5年來有99位珍貴的士官兵的生命進入福島的更只有5個人所以漏接了94.9%將近95%這就是我們的國軍三級的心腹機制就是失靈下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11040.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11068.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
精準診斷才能有效防範。」有健康的國軍才有健康的台灣。但是你們所提供的自殺的原因的統計,非常的粗略。只有告訴我們,原因四成是經濟因素,兩成五是感情因素。但是如果以專業的分析,你必須去進入他是志願役,他是義務役,他的年齡層分布。 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11069.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11086.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
沒有做,這個馬上請你們作戰局要去做。」唯有有效的分析才能夠來防範,尤其年齡層是重要的,包括他入伍服役多久,可能會發生需要求助的狀況,都需要專業的分析,我想部長同意嘛,對不對?這就是三級防處的機制。 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11091.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11117.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
第一期初級的發掘預防,第二級的專業輔導,第三級的醫療處遇,真的層層失靈,才會有漏接了95%的往生的士官兵的生命。我要告訴大家,我剛也聽了部長的回覆,你們說我們每一層都有督導,心腹是專業。我請求部長,我請求局長,能夠把這句話聽進去。 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11119.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11136.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
心腹式專業,他絕對需要專業的有效介入,否則那是無效的武器。」下一頁。我跟您報告,目前我們的基層單位沒有心腹人力,全部都仰賴輔導長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11138.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11146.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
二級的新府中心編制人員451位實際人員只有382位具有專業證照人數只有60個三級編制人員14個實際人員13個具體取得證照的是9位統計來講從基層單位二級、三級整個國軍的新府人員取得證照的比例我跟部長報告只有69位 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11166.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11190.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
專業的心腹證照的比例在整個國軍國軍要服務16萬大軍比例只有17.5這是一個非常嚴肅的課題我再次說心腹是專業不要告訴我輔導長可以take care他的關懷可能是錯誤的關懷他想要關懷反而是給了壓力下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11193.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11214.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
再跟您報告,我調閱出來的資料,剛剛說的國軍具有心腹證照的專業的有69位,其實另外還有86位他畢業於心理師相關的學系或者是社工相關的學系,有86位,可是他的工作本務不是心腹,非常可惜。 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11215.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11222.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
所以兩條路,第一個,有新府證照的人只有69位,他真的做新府工作,人力要補強,專業要人盡其才。但是現役的你還不用去外面求助,心去攬財,有86位現在就在軍中。 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11233.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11245.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
但是他不做心腹的工作,非常的可惜,可以優先透過調派人力的方式,讓這86位具備心理師、社工師相關證照的人員來 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11247.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11268.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
補強新府的戰力。」這做得到吧,部長?這可以做到,我們立刻去處理。好,下一頁。部長,剛剛洪森翰委員他用的數字是1比400,就是我這個表格的最左邊。服務士官兵1比405,是以395位你們編的二級、三級的新府人力的那個工作,可是他不是專業人力。 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11269.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11278.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
如果以新府的專業人力就是整個國軍只有69個而且他真的就是做新府的工作比起16萬大軍的話他的比例是1比2318這個數字才是我們要面對的真相是1比2318我後面會快轉我快速分享我在教育部門推動的經驗謝謝主席多給我一點點時間下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11296.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11325.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
教育部原本是1比1200,我說是高教。五、思瑤不斷的質詢要求現在要修學生輔導法,還沒修法前先用預算補助的方式,已經要求各大學要做到1比900。這是專業的幸福人力,1比900,就是大學這樣做。現在已經各校還沒有修法用預算撥補的方式去做了,所以想做是做得到的。下一頁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11326.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11344.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
好,我剛說了監察院已經做出了調查了輔導長他同時身兼軍紀保防的工作他是管理者他同時又要做心理輔導的工作這是一個矛盾跟混亂的角色他想要輔導他想要關懷結果是給錯了壓力讓輔導長來作為基層的士官兵的 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11354.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11379.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11380.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11398.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
可以來善用這些人在他的工作分配的時候來協助輔導長、協助二級、三級的人員。」下一頁。你們開缺在小選的機制裡頭,都需要什麼駕駛啦、資訊啦、積電人才,開一個新府人才吧,這做得到吧,是不是?下一頁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11399.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11423.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
好,自己內部沒有辦法做,我們去轉介外部,我們去跟外部的輔導機構來合作,確實這幾年來向外部來合作,成長5.2倍,轉介數增加1.83倍,輔導人次增加3.29倍,預算不夠,沒有跟上來,預算只有從100萬增加到170萬。好,時間要到了。好,那我最後一件事情要到了,再來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11430.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11448.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
這個事情,大學現在開始有心理健康假。從吳思瑤2022年質詢的時候,只有兩校,現在有43校。教育部跟上來,心理健康假、身心調適假向下延伸,現在高中有42個學校試辦,今年9月要全面試辦。下一頁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11450.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11464.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我也去向人事總處提出質詢,學生有心理健康假,公務人員也正在研議全台灣的公務人員有心理健康假,不是為了放假而放假,是透過心理健康假可以讓我們的輔導機制去追蹤誰請了這個假,他需要什麼輔導。 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11469.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11498.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
軍中的管理是不同的,我同意,可是我分享了教育部門的經驗,其他公務體系的經驗,我希望可以擾動大家的思維。」我今天帶來的就是新府需要專業。部長、副局長,我給您三個月的時間,我們再進一步來做探討,好嗎?好,謝謝吳思堯委員,相關資料請。好,謝謝主席,謝謝。部長跟政政局這邊,敬嚴你。好,謝謝。請回。好,接下來進行詢答的委員是林益君委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11507.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11525.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議徐巧芯等20人擬具國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11526.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11535.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
上次本席有質詢有關新式國造抗彈板的問題本席還是呼籲一下國防部請務必要確保能抵擋共軍5.8口徑子彈的話至少還是要做到NIZ標準的RF2的等級的防護才夠但如果國防部認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11545.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11547.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
依沙坪標準抗彈板太重會造成國軍士兵的負擔,應該用更科學的方式來加強官兵體能,這才是正本清源的方式。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11575.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11582.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
草案案例如美國陸軍H2F的計劃就是把運動生理還有營養學還有運動心理還有精神和睡眠的專業知識普及到全軍的110個營級的單位甚至會讓每個營區的健身房都配置專業的健身教練還有物理治療師還有營養師那請問部長目前我們每個營區都是有設置健身房嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11605.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11607.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11626.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11646.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
譬如說跑步機,如果操場可以跑,那你在跑步機上跑,當然會有所差異,天候不好當然健身房是有用的,但可能沒有辦法讓每個營區通通有健身房。好的,那據我也大約知道,可能也是像部長說的,可能佔地不足還是有一些使用上的成本考量啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11647.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11661.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
但是何事建議部長說其實不適合設置健身房還是器材不足的營區是不是可以跟周邊民間的健身業者合作請健身房的健身教練協助官兵來特定的機群還有體能的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11664.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11670.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
所以這也是思考方向之一嘛,所以我們也可以試看看。好,然後雖然國軍有部分其實大家都有意識到運動科學的重要性,例如體測現在也是都用捲腹來取代上到腰部的仰臥起坐嘛,但總體上面還是在推廣的階段還沒有到非常的普及。 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11684.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11703.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
所以這邊北溪想要請部長加速普及性,在運動科學方面還有以科學的方法練兵,其實可以讓整個數值有系統性的成長,那OK嗎?可以嗎?這應該要做的,都對他健康又有利,體能也可以提升,這種當樂見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11706.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11721.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
去年抗彈板的問題其實報出來就是有因為一個美國網紅對抗彈板的進行野地的測試所以那前幾天有一個網紅又對國軍的抗彈頭盔進行了測試那請問部長國防部有對這件事情有掌握嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11725.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11750.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
委員好感謝委員的一個指導我們分別在4月3號跟15號有跟委員辦公室來說明我們的頭盔包含抗彈板都是在105年依照軍種的作戰需求跟敵情的威脅確實是用NIA的一個標準那去年在我們王定宇王昭偉的指導之下我們全部我們新一代的抗彈板採取美軍的一剎皮的 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11751.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11768.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
跟委員剛剛指導的凹陷子確實我們在100我們在105年的時候NIDA是沒有做凹陷那我們這個為了沒有做凹陷我們在112年也幫我們的頭盔送到國防大學的理工學院的彈道實驗室去打 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11769.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11788.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
打的結果都是合乎現在美軍最新的ACH,那去年也指導了,我們王昭偉也指導了,我們偶後我們新一代的抗彈板跟頭盔跟委員給我們指導的,我們都是用最新的,新一代抗彈板是用VSAP的,頭盔是用ACS的,我們非常感謝委員的指導,以上報告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11788.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11799.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
好,那因為之前我有詢問過軍備局嘛,裡面有說有送國防理工學院測試凹陷值,但數據看起來是完全符合美軍ACH的防護標準,但是這個防護這個ACH凹陷值的規範,這個有公佈測試的結果嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11808.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11822.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
跟委員報告,我們就是要取得認證,我們現在在申請TAP,因為要TAP認證完之後,我們就是一個標準。TAP認證完之後,我們就會將TAP認證完跟我們測試完就會公告了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11824.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11841.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
所以其實這個很多台灣的民眾和官士兵其實對於抗彈頭盔其實還是抱有不少的疑慮所以其實現在也是請問部長其實還有如果召委同意的話能不能安排參訪我們外交國防委員會其實可以去兵士場看軍備局按照測試標準打一次測試的頭盔從各單位隨機挑選 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11848.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11851.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
實驗室測試結果,如果還是沒有辦法確保民眾對抗彈頭盔的信任的話,其實那國防部也可以做一個野地測試啊,安排在室內靶場讓幾個當過兵的小...你不要叫我穿著當靶就好,其他我都沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11868.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11883.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
不會不會像王定宇召委啦還是陳永康委員啊其實稍微練習一下都是非常的可以恢復以前熟悉的嘛吼那如果也能成功擋下子彈或者破片的話其實表示無論是實驗室的數據還是實際使用上是完全沒有問題的那要質疑的聲音肯定大家都啞口無言了嘛這樣這個辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11891.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11902.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11923.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11935.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
取得公信力的方法之一,我們也朝這方去做,去年的確有做過。好,謝謝林委員。來,部長,各位請回,謝謝。好,接下來進行尋找委員是鄭天才委員,時間4分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11953.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11958.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
事件處理法草案。五、審查陸海空軍懲罰法及軍人權益事件處理法草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11984.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12010.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這個陸海空軍懲罰法這個從過去是承襲這個民國19年當時的體力這個確實是要大修特修但是我今天看了這個今天你們花了很長的時間開了會議然後送到立法院的條文我這個再談一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12014.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12035.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
這裏面特別提到軍人應受懲罰行為7分情務上與情務外,這是正確的方向,應該要這樣做。我們看這個,就以這兩條,就第15條,現行條文第15條跟現在行政院版送來的第6條, |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12037.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12064.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
這個原來的第15條,現行條文,現役軍人有下列情形、下列為私行為之一者,應受懲罰。這有好幾款的部分。這裡面現在送來的第6條的修正版。軍人非執行勤務而有下列行為之一者,為勤務外違紀行為,人應受懲罰。列了這個7款。 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12068.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12094.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
請問一下這個人因受懲罰違反這個期款要如何懲罰?茂偉,我是法律司司長,跟委員報告,這就是懲罰的事由。第6條規範的是勤務外,譬如說他放假在外面,他如果故意觸犯刑事法律,如果他放假在外面去吸毒,如果去酒駕,如果去實施性騷擾等等, |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12095.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12110.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
都可以當作懲罰了室友。」也就是說我們過去有就是現行條1到第15條它列了很多的款次我們也有去查考了一些資料從民國三年的什麼海軍艦艇規則陸軍的等等規則有最多到六、七十款的 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12110.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12111.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12129.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12153.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
在勤務內的,你就用勤務內的方式來處罰。如果是勤務外的,你不是執勤,你放假回家,你休假,但是你不可以去觸犯我們國家的法律,你不可以在營外吸毒,不可以酒駕,不可以性騷擾,等等。如何懲罰?就是按著裡面的相關的規定,查完了之後由權責長官來做懲罰。輕的直接就懲罰,重的會聽一聽那個懲罰諮詢會的意見。這個好。是,權責長官來做處罰。次長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12158.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12177.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12189.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12210.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
授權的規定,沒有授權你定在一些行政規則裡面或是一些要點注意事項裡面目前的做法還是跟過去一樣尤其是涉及到撤職涉及到撤職是一個很嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12211.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12232.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
所以不應該在定一些相關的這些行政規則裡面來去決定。甚至由這個會議,你們叫什麼?審議會?諮詢會來去決定。所以這個部分還要再精進,尤其是涉及到撤職。是,我了解你的意思。 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12235.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12237.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12257.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12283.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
還是有涉及到工作潛能。」所以這個部分請這個次長還有法律事務司還是要再怎麼樣再把這個《陸海空軍懲罰法》未來還是要再繼續的修正,好不好?下去我們會繼續努力。謝謝,謝謝鄭天才委員。我們後面會開公聽會,可以邀請你來參與提供寶貴意見。好,謝謝。好,那個司長跟兩位司長請回,次長請回。 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12284.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12303.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
接著進行巡檔委員、審發會委員、審發會委員、審發會委員不在。徐宇貞委員、徐宇貞委員、徐宇貞委員不在。萬美玲委員、萬美玲委員、萬美玲委員不在。鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在。接下來進行巡檔委員是吳宗憲委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12313.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12316.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我們請部長部長請部長你好我也好部長其實我多次公開有 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12329.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12352.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
不然受訪或什麼都有說部長也是我非常敬佩的一位部長至少在目前內閣中我覺得非常欣賞的是部長那上次在質詢的時候我有跟部長請教過就是有關國軍自殺人數的問題那昨天我想說還又有一件不幸的事情發生部長應該知道是哪一件吧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12354.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12374.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
我現在想請教因為上一次我在質詢的時候我有提到說因為近年來這個國軍自殺自傷的人數有在往上漲那在接下來因為我們因應一些國際局勢的問題或兩岸的問題那我們現在今年開始把 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12375.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12394.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
一物一的時間延長為一年。」那這個狀況可能有關治傷的部分可預期的可能也會增加那我想請教一下就是目前國防部到底有沒有依據監察院之前的一個建議希望引入外部專業輔導跟精神醫療資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12397.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12413.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我跟委員報告,任何一個制裁案件,對單位、對家庭來講都是一個滿意看的事情。我們國軍很注意這一塊,但我目前能夠做到什麼樣?像一旦草案發生以後,我們從內部開始檢討,從外部檢討,然後也會從它的階級、單位、服務單位都做一個類比。 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12419.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12444.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
所以我們也概率得到幾個數據,但是不便在這邊就貿然這樣講出來,因為可能會造成誤解,軍中在推辭,但我跟委員報軍中絕對不推辭。第二,強化措施,剛剛很多委員也有指導,新府人員他不是隨便派一個人就可以做新府的,這我們也一步一步在改進,在強化,在教育訓練,讓新府人員願意投入我們軍中。 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12445.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12468.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
這我們一點點在強化,但是要一觸馬上看到什麼成就,那我想就也要經營今年累月的多方面管道來共同輔導,然後以便讓我們軍中這些戰力能夠維持下去。跟文多講一點,事實上我看,現在這個年齡層真的很低。所以這我當然,我不了解年輕人,我也不怪這年輕人什麼草莓族,我不會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12469.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12479.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
一定有原因,但是我們要很坦誠的去面對,而且去強化我們的防範措施,所以我一定要努力的。目前部裡面跟衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12485.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12512.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
或是相關單位有沒有進行一些研議,那現在有進度嗎?有的,我們現在除了三層管道以外,另外第三層到第二層就要準備了,就要找這些部外人員了。那我目前了解衛福部有很多這種巡撫人員,也剛剛有一個核定,就是大家簽訂一個在哪個區塊到哪個地方去接受巡撫的一個治療。我想這資源共用嘛,而且大家都很專業的話, |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12513.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12532.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
也像能夠從他們身上幫助我們國軍一點,把治傷防治工作給做好。最後我想說我提幾個,因為上一次在質詢的時候我有提到,有幾個我希望說部裡可以考量一下,就是九三軍人節可不可以跟內政部溝通,當天可不可以全國 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12534.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12537.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12555.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12559.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12580.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12593.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我覺得精進義務役入伍的流程因為我們常有聽到外面有很多人講說他們在等待入伍的時間他時間非常的長那因為他這個時間很長他會耽誤到他的計畫因為他這個時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12596.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12597.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12611.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12616.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12639.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12640.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12660.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12678.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
部隊的同時他們也是不停的精進他的技術。我想這對國家或對個人我覺得都是一個很好的事情。那我這個再麻煩部長。是,鮑偉您提的意見都是很具體的。事實上我們國際委員會在作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12679.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12680.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12713.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12732.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12737.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12756.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆聯席會各委員並複製聯席會,那兼委員口中詢答時,若未及答覆或要求補充資料者,原則上已書面兩週內提供,若另有約定期限,依其所定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12758.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12787.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
今明兩天一次會,那今早上聯席會呢,各委員達成共識,這兩部法律的修法提案在進入實質審查前應舉行公聽會,傾聽法界、學界及社會各界的意見。所以今明兩天就不進行大體討論跟條文處理,後續我們會安排公聽會及審查的程序。今天會議到此結束,現在散會。 |