| IVOD_ID |
15818 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15818 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-17T08:30:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-17T13:11:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:40:30 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dd40e7c6eb22b5d9c90a0be61fea148183be8d109af184be454d7f2fb50189e005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:30 - 13:11:00 |
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1930.718 |
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報告委員會出席委員10人以主法定人數我們現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國113年4月15日星期一上午9時6分至12時3分地點紅樓森林一會議室出席委員沈博洋等11人列席委員鄭天才等18人列席人員外交部部長吳釗燮及所屬人員主席馬洲籍委員文軍報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定 |
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1961.88 |
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1990.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
二、邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告我國國際合作發展具體成效及未來目標．並備質詢。外交部部長吳釗燮報告委員沈博洋等15人質詢。均由外交部部長吳釗燮、政務次長田中光、條約法律司司長嚴建成、民事事務局副局長陳尚友、財團法人國際合作發展基金會秘書長李朝成及財團法人臺灣民主基金會代理執行長廖達祺等即席答覆。 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1991.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2010.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請國交部與二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員另此第幾限則從其所定三委員陳永康及黃仁等二人所提書面質詢內錄記錄刊登公報宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2017.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2021.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處?如果沒有我們議事錄確定,請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項二,邀請國防部部長邱國正報告:「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度．並備質詢。」宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2057.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2060.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
首先我們介紹在場委員首先介紹李博義委員沈伯陽委員黃仁委員李坤誠委員林楚英委員還有陳永康委員還有陳冠廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2089.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2095.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們介紹與會的官員首先介紹我們國防部邱國正邱部長副參謀總長執行官鄭榮峰上將朝務次長楊基榮楊次長參事邵惟洋中將 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2117.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2127.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
全民防衛動員署 白潔龍 白署長總督察長 李兆民 李總督察長政務辦公室 廖建新 主任政治作戰局 陳玉琳 局長軍備局 林文祥 林局長主計局 謝祺賢 謝局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2145.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2168.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
軍醫局蔡建松蔡局長戰略規劃司李士強李司長資源規劃司鄧克雄鄧司長法律事務司沈世維沈司長整合評估司苗慧芬苗司長國防採購是趙雅萍主任人事參謀次長是劉佩智劉次長情報參謀次長是顏友賢顏次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2175.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2191.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
作戰及計劃參謀次長是陳文新陳次長後勤參謀次長是陳道輝陳次長通信電子資訊參謀次長是盧建忠盧次長訓練參謀次長是張俊智張次長陸軍司令部陳建毅參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2203.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2209.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
空軍司令部曹敬平參謀長後備指揮部薛淵泉參謀長憲兵指揮部呂正芳參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部劉清薰劉參謀長直通電軍指揮部陳俊良陳參謀長軍事情報局第一處鄧敦仁鄧處長海軍造船發展中心顧志忠主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2234.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2243.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
電訊發展室政技處湯金生處長國家中山科學研究院張忠誠張院長臺船蔡坤忠副總經理 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2254.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2257.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
本日會議邀請國防部邱國正報告．潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度．並備質詢。報告採全程秘密方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2267.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2285.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
秘密報告及詢答後．續公開詢答．詢答時間並記本會委員時加2分鐘．非本會委員8分鐘．10點30分公開詢答．發言登記截止．如果有臨時提案．請於10點30分之前提出11點左右．視詢答情形進行處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2288.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2293.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們稍後即將進行秘密會議參與秘密會議的人員除了委員以外都要憑機密證進入會場所有人員請將手機筆電平板攝錄影設備電子手錶手環二個大等存放於場外置物櫃 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2308.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2313.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
並接受駐衛警人員之偵測檢查同時務必簽署保密切結書請所有參與秘密會議人員切實掌握時間現在請議事人員請場 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
4863.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
4863.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
議員會議結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
4890.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
4892.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
5242.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
5248.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好 我們請列席人員就座 我們繼續開會現在登記公開質詢委員開始詢答我們現在請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請邱國正邱部長請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
5280.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
5302.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
林委員好部長早安剛剛我們是進行了機密的會議不過本期沒有在機密會議當中來做詢答的原因是因為我想機密的內容我們主要還是以了解為主那麼不過我希望透過一個公開的詢答表示我對國軍尤其是這一次我們在潛艦國造當中不論是國軍地修或者是這些工程設計師們 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
5303.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
5331.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
以及包括所有參與的這些廠商們的一個肯定也感謝因為這確實是一個艱難的任務那麼當然也謝謝部長在這段期間當中給予所有的這種壓力上面的承受不過就在今天我們要召開這個秘密會議之前那麼黃曙光他已經確認就是要請辭那麼我想詢問的是昨天晚上他發表了一個最新的聲明部長您有看到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
5331.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
5349.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我今天早上有看到您今天早上看到了其實看到他的聲明我只是身為一個國會議員但是我也是一個普通的老百姓我是一個被保護者我想國人應該都跟我此刻現在心情一樣因為他寫到什麼他裡面寫到的讓我念一下他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
5350.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
5374.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
他其實不是因為個人的利益因為國家的利益在這之上那麼他認為現在的這些政治的算計導致他在這近七八年的時間承受了不實的指控以及嚴重詆毀跟攻擊意圖混淆民眾認知更無法忍受有心人士攻擊破壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
5376.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
5394.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
國防戰力的提升打擊詆毀國軍名譽跟士氣那麼他現在是因為他覺得個人身心俱疲與他人無關更沒有任何政治的因素部長您什麼時候知道他打算請辭 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
5395.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
5411.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我是看到報紙我聽到人家講說他請辭他經常看報紙就把那個詳細他發表聲明我看一遍我才知道的那我要跟委員報兩件事情第一我很感謝委員對國防事務的支持也要體諒 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
5413.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
5437.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
第二,我個人跟黃曙光先生,我跟他好幾度的共識。我要肯定他,真的不管在做人做事方面,都是相當負責禁止的。這一回他請辭了以後,大家關切的,這個團隊能不能夠繼續推動工作。當然對於心理上的影響,我有責任持續給他們鼓舞。 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
5438.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
5439.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
其實現在有一些媒體對外臆測是因為說面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
5460.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
5477.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
在今天之前他所面對的他自己也寫了包括政治上面的包括名嘴上面對他的攻擊那麼包括今天的會議當中如果他沒有辭他如果站在這裡的時候他會不會成為一個被攻擊者 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
5478.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
5502.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那所以部長您認為他此刻的請辭會不會是因為接下來可能還有更多的無端的攻擊你怎麼看我跟委員報告我不做預測但我其實講說我們軍人那麼久了以後的確確我們要面對很多現在環境裡面勢必的大家各自表述可能有些人並沒有經過查證而就講得出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
5503.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
5524.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
但這一點對於個人 的確是有相當影響的所以黃國光先生他會有這種感覺我真的我可以體會但每個人他調整的方法不同但我不做臆測講他說因為又希望就可能又面對哪一個狀況他故意逃脫或者避開我不這樣認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
5525.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
5550.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因為軍人在植物裡面那麼久很多困難都見過總是可以解決的但問題就是說假如說問題沒有講出來不知道問題在哪裡這就比較困難我想我對他還是相當肯定而且我也一直很感謝他對我們國軍的協助對海軍的重大專業的一個投入他幾乎是全程放在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
5551.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
5574.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這是我跟委員報我跟他接觸以後啊我對他我個人的看法而且我相信很多海軍同仁也會有同樣的看法好所以說對於剛剛您有特別提到啦這個恐怕不只是黃曙光本人他的壓力很大參與其中的每一個面向的每一個單位都其實承受了同樣的大的壓力那麼您剛也講了不會影響到潛艦國造後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
5576.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
5601.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
的整個發展包括媒體先寫了有一個所謂的先進國防辦公室那麼您有知道目前潛艦小組會解編然後變成所謂的先進國防辦公室由他來接棒這樣的訊息嗎所以我跟委員報告剛剛在進來前有些媒體也問到我我對這件事情答覆一樣的我還真的不知道這件事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
5601.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
5611.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好但是呢至少我們可以確認的是潛艦國造的整個期程會持續的前進那麼其實現在有許多的媒體的資料那 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
5613.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
5640.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
等一下我的詢問部長如果您認為是機密您可以事後再派同仁或是您再來跟我報告但是現在我現在所擷取的資料都是媒體已經曝光的那麼我們也可以來讓大眾瞭解一下到底這些資訊對或不對比如說剛剛的機密報告當中確實是講了目前現有的一些狀況期程以及預算的使用但是媒體在面對接下來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
5641.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
5643.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
建造的另外的7艘開始就在預測了比如說媒體說了現在成本的第一台原型艦海昆號是312億然後以15年編列的期程接下來的7艘分別是3加2加2 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
5660.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
5664.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那他用一個所謂平均值來算怎麼會後面的7艘反而比較貴那這個時候你知道這種風氣帶起來就會說欸不是量產了應該比較便宜嗎那這樣的過程當中可以講的部分真的這是事實嗎還是說其實有什麼樣其他的原因因為一般的民眾會把這個潛艦的生產好像當成我們這個工廠加工生產這個一旦上路之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
5689.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
5695.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所謂量產就可以便宜那潛艦是這樣嗎那這樣的媒體標題對嗎包括七艘後訓軍架居然漲了28%哇聽起來大家就會覺得說欸好像這個錢沒有用在高頭上或是有什麼地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
5708.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
5709.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
似乎浪費掉了來部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
5738.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
5767.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這不是現在錢跟以前比然後現在錢完全就在前線上這個數量除以7那就是這樣這樣的話是有欠公允的但我們當然我們盡量的讓社會大眾知道就好像講說一個孩子要長大以後不講他以後將來做什麼事情可是他飯還在吃進去了這對於我們一點點溝通也很感謝委員給我們這個機會讓我們做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
5768.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
5777.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
好因為身為立法委員我們必須說以我的專業來講的話那麼我會做一個媒體的監控那我比較擔憂的就是說在很多機密無法說的情況底下有人要來帶風向的時候那這對於整個潛艦的團隊也是一種打擊為什麼我開場會特別提到黃曙光的事件那確實也是這樣在不能說或者是在國家安全的時候所承受的壓力面是很大的那包括我就很 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
5797.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
5826.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
認同部長能講的部分把它講出來就像我們講的後面的這7艘還有其他除了造建之外的需求在裡頭那講到這個需求其實我們知道我剛剛特別講到的所受到的壓力方方面面不只是在檯面上主導計劃必須要承受壓力必須要承受那種被攻堅污衊的可能性但是在後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
5827.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
5856.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
但不論是工程師或者是供應商同樣面對一樣的壓力我看過一篇報導上面提到的就是很多的供應商會認為說提供給台灣那麼可能會受到接下來中國的制裁或中國的威脅那麼會變成是如果給台灣那不如就轉向賣給其他國家不要躺這個渾水那麼就部長來看我們其實希望的是接下來就像您在報告當中也特別提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
5857.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
5875.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
他其實是有一個產業鏈可以帶動我們國防產業的整體的發展所以大家關注的是那麼接下來的7艘當中我們在國防的產能上面自主性的部分到底在原料提供包括原件的提供的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
5876.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
5881.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
是不是可以有機會往上拉升那這個拉升的部分整體來說當在尋求合作對象的時候除了拉升之外那麼如何來因應他們在面對就是去中國化也就是避免中國勢力介入的部分有沒有一定的所謂的這種考核或者是審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
5899.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
5927.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我跟委員報兩點第一個從委員所講的所謂的顧慮其他廠商要顧慮這是事實但我們都要依然要去克服這也就增加他們在執行上困難的地方但我相信我們專案團隊他這幾年的經驗也累積了也知道怎麼樣去應處以後再有困難他也比照著方法我相信只要大家多溝通成格以對的話都可以慢慢慢慢一點點解決是第一個第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
5927.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
5948.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
他這個潛艦做了以後我們知道任何一項工業跟這有關的或原本這工業技術在國內並不很成熟的因為這件事情給帶動他來向上提升所以我講說國機國造國艦國造他不是講說就把這個成品做出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
5949.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
5952.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以說剛剛提到的有關於中國在市場上對於我們潛艦設備供應的阻撓有嗎?那麼有克服嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
5978.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
5992.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這是我們一直在執行當中的事情我們也不必講太明白但是我們就把當作在這個工作進度當中會遇到可能的狀況以及已經發生的某些事實我們來做一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
5994.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
5994.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
6022.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
6032.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
50是臺灣董事長的目標我們會努力朝這個方向前進因為提高自治率本來就是國防自主最重要的一個精神我們會去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
6033.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
6033.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
6071.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
6071.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
邱國正報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
6082.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
6101.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我延續剛剛楚英委員所提的對於前艦後艦的建造的預算不管是媒體或是國人所看待的一個預算未來繼續建造7艘這個7艘裡面就是總預算2800多億2800多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
6108.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
6128.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那當然我們就引述為引述我們國防部的智庫國防安全研究院的重量級的學者蘇紫雲所長之前所說的第一艘潛艦造架包含廠房 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
6129.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
6131.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
本席認為這樣的一個見解很正常也符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
6156.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
6180.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
在研發生產成本的一個規律但最後結果卻完全相反所以這就是我們國人所看待為什麼在這樣的一個立場已經是顛倒過來現在的建造將近400多億一艘未來一艘400多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
6181.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
6197.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
如果按照蘇紫雲所說的這個成本的價200到250億我覺得是一個非常正常合理的一個推算為什麼會變成增加他的成本部長你來說明一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
6198.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
6223.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
剛剛在這個會議當中有消防委員主委先進做報告這當中不是光是造艦一般來講的話有的成品出來後面就量產就源源不斷當然按照這種觀念來講的話它也並沒有錯因為這是同樣東西但我們因為第一次做有些設施配備第二艘艦以後這些設施配備不見得是足夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
6224.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
6246.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以這個議案我比較一個中算以後可能也期望一定要比原來的價格要低但是整體的花費絕對不是像一般講這個多少億除以7這樣的話真的是有限公餘但委員那邊需要更詳細資料我還是可以派專人再去跟委員做消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
6247.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
6261.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
一般大眾所關切的我想我也請海軍專案小組看怎麼樣很圓融的又不涉密的狀況下跟大家做一個說明我想這樣的話比較不會造成議論紛紛因為這是我們國人所質疑的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
6267.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
6286.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
國造潛艦目前第一艘海坤艦都還沒有下水來做運行的一個測試所以你說一下子後續我們後艦的一個建造我就本身有一點疑問什麼疑問有關於國艦國造後艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
6292.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
6306.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
的建造的規劃國防部本來有什麼想法以下有幾個我想部長你待會我提的這三樣你能不能回答一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
6307.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
6323.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
你們當初的見解第一個當時沒有定見打算先看海昆艦交付海軍後觀察海昆艦效能一段時間後再說第二海昆艦交付海軍後 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
6325.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
6346.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
隨即編列預算建造後續建．第三早已設計早就是要提交後建一次編組預算．一次建造．哪一項是你們國防部的意見?我跟委員報告這沒有哪一項定案的因為任何出來的油它一定要經過檢測這檢測哪些單位來檢測使用單位還有這些專業人員一樣一樣過濾完 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
6352.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
6372.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
才能夠決定下一步但基本上概念就講說我們國機國造國艦國造這已經根深蒂固我們期望能夠一步一步落實但這個程序絕對不會跳動的如果那不行了我們那就停如果不行了我們就如果可以了就馬上就一次這我們在一步一步在走 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
6372.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
6373.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
從我們海昆艦的建造 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
6388.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
6410.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我相信你們是站在第一個想法當時沒有定見打算先看海昆艦交付海軍之後觀察海軍這個海昆艦的效能有沒有一定達到他的效能跟效力還有他的攻擊力這是我相信你們國防部應該是這一項為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
6413.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
6440.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
賴清的準總統聽了一次的機密簡報之後就直接的對潛艦國造嚇直到齊這種草率的心態對國清真的好嗎另外現在的海昆艦連試海運試都還沒有先進行這種的射箭後把後劃把的指令國清真的可以接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
6442.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
6465.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我跟委員報告真的我覺得不是因為聽了某句話就下一個決心國機國造國境國造目的在哪裡一方面促進我們的戰力再一方面也促進我們國內國防工業的一個同步的進步我想這是一個長久考量出來的絕對不是一個臨機的我建議說哎呀不行不行就拉倒了不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
6466.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
6467.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
如果早就有這個目標,也應該在海昆艦的建造之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
6493.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
6521.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
應該不是我們賴清德準總統提出後續七建造一次建造完成你們應該在海昆建建造的之後你們提出可行性的報告不是就不就像這樣子嗎因為你們當初就沒有這個訂建才會有後續今天賴清德第一次聽到簡報之後一次造完 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
6521.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
6547.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這樣的一個合理嗎推論我們用推論來去看待這個事情部長你再回到一次我跟委員報告加上用推論的話那我推我自己我當初一聽到這種國機國造國艦國造我是興奮的不得了因為我從年輕就期望我們國家國軍所使用裝備都我們自己生產出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
6548.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
6563.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我對我來講的話那是我的定論所以想說你要推人家定論我不去做臆測但我跟委員報告我的推論如此何況我們在做當中但是期望歸期望但不做不能亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
6564.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
6579.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以一定是一步一腳印的所以這個目標是我絕對不可能講我今天可以啊變成多少艘不會這樣子的這我跟委員報告要我講的話我不幫別人去做一個說明但我覺得這整個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
6580.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
6583.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
今天我講的這個是一個國人的一個疑問因為我們在國艦國造後建之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
6609.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
6627.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這個預算的編列的增加對我們整個國防的預算來講絕對是非常的可觀而且承載了這樣的一個壓力所以今天我們要講的是我們回歸到如果國艦國造的七艘的後艦的狀況舒子穎講的所長 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
6631.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
6651.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
他是一個你們智庫裡面最高的一個學者而且他提出的這個概念應該符合常規啊對不對而不是我們看一下後面的數字裡面是400多億所以今天國人為什麼很多對這個國艦國造的疑問就在這裡啊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
6653.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
6668.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我了解啊,所以我跟海靖文同仁講的這個我們要想辦法說明但目前有困難的原因在哪裡?第一個,整體預算多少還未定一個概估第二個,預算一編裁以後絕對不是把這個預算除以 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
6669.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
6671.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我希望你把詳細的這一個報告的後期的後見 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
6696.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
6714.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
如果評估起來是以舒子怡所提出的是不是你們也可以朝這個方向提供給我一個資料那另外就是我們講說昨天前天那個報紙黃淑光辭棄了潛艦國造的召集人然後改 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
6715.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
6725.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
改為現在的先進國防辦公室當然我們不是說黃淑光將來會接這個職位這個是一個臆測未來可能部長是不是接這個先進國造的辦公室的 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
6737.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
6743.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我跟委員講兩點很簡單的第一個國軍幹部我所了解的是包含現階的沒有人在求官的我們很清楚這官方你求來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
6760.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
6763.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我並沒有指你喔是未來的國防部長今天會弄一個先進國防事務辦公室這個是不是顧名思義就是部長要擴前 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
6781.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
6809.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
沒有我跟委員報告就這個什麼辦公室我跟委員報告我從來沒有聽過真的傳明剛才在外媒體有問我我想我真的一無所知所以我不想答不不答不的問題我想這就是一個知識體所以你不要你不要你不要承攬這樣的一個任務我沒有要承攬因為我根本就不知道這件事情預告預告未來部長的權力是不是擴充到這樣的無限 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
6811.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
6831.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
對我們整個國防跟國防的軍事確實會有相當的影響以上部長接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
6840.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
6845.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
邱國正報告:「基於過去在軍職服務40年所以在場的同仁過去我們有很多是共同參與專案 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
6869.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
6869.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
6893.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
6894.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我們的目標是支持潛艦國造 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
6923.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
6947.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
方法我們要談到效益為後續的潛艦做參考那我們就講到手段在第一條潛艦因為是特別的狀況下所謂是合法非正規那這告一段落我們現在的手段是依法合規也就是說我們的專案管理要成立造建計劃專案管理辦公室不再是潛艦小組這個專案這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
6950.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
6963.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
前建造建的專案辦公室他的位階是比總部的計畫處還要高就像當年我跟邵參事我們都知道建管室我們裡面需要有載台組戰系組 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
6965.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
6991.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
整體後勤組綜合包括訓練另外還要有法制跟這個所謂的會計組他是一個整合的他來做統一的協調而不能由單一一個署處下面的一個組承受不了因此人力要擴張那這是專案管理那專案管理的過程中間我們是基於第一條船完成驗收完成所有的準則教範 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
6993.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
7011.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
變成一個標準模式以後開始討論第二條船的合約框架在這個過程中我建議海軍你要有一個完整的律師團隊跟台船的律師團隊要組成一個完整的所有的在旅約督導、約會、記會律師團隊、會計師要全程參與那麼這個時候才會產生供應商因為其他國際因素造成的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
7018.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
7019.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我先講財務如果是用一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
7047.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
7047.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
﹚廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
7064.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
7064.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
我等下向大家做報告人力的復合 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
7089.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
7095.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
這因為這個八條船的出來以後啊以剛才說比照我們現有的人啊60人一艘的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
7097.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
7122.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
你的戰力需求256不只是兩倍擴充因為包括校準包括你的基地包括你的後勤維保所有的人力都要增加這個我想在邱部長任內能夠給予指導後續我會向新任的部長做建議可能沒有辦法做那條要著於增加人力調整那麼最後所謂的接受度就是這個船第一條船完成整體的測試驗收 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
7125.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
7141.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
將來的準則教範全部要由現在的人在驗收合格那在過程中間有一項就是因為我們這型船是走外面的商售的技術轉移並沒有包括消遲限圈所以你的將來我們的教遲整遲 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
7142.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
7165.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我講的就是這個東西是要把這個技術資料回饋到後續造建上做校正那麼一個是你的整體噪音值寬頻的窄頻的再加上磁性的這個是慢慢累積的那做出一個建議因為這個案子做的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
7166.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
7192.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
一個系列的造艦所以你的看法並不是只生產成本就說不是攤餘的單價可能你還甚至全售期比方講第一條船的交船第二條船你是不是第一次有這個兩年三年要配件或是中間大修的成本是分開算因為你第一次每一條船的第一條你都是回廠去做這個要有彈性要有寬裂 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
7194.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
7213.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
另外就是所謂的造建成本人事成本裡面這個我相信參事很了解我們要用工時來計算因為工程師專案管理師他是監督設計但他不參與labor force可是他的因為台船是要營業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
7214.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
7243.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
7244.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
7268.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
另外一點就是因為面對後面的合約我給中科院一個建議不管是中科院跟台船之間的關係是簽合約但是在軍總跟中科院的關係有關的協議書往往因為軍總的變化那個協議書中間使中科院失去了調節的彈性我的建議以這個法人的角色看還是要簽合約這我提出一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
7269.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
7286.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那至於系列下面的是3加2加2那我們尊重海軍跟台船他自己的人力複合跟騎乘的安排那這個就是剛才我們是從媒體看就是寬估15年那麼建造的騎乘這個是一個樂觀指數僅供參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
7291.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
7304.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我們看第二章啊這個就是一個不樂觀的一個參考值為什麼呢你造建出來了隔四年你第一條船回台船做大修你繼續第二條船第三條船下水 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
7306.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
7327.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
結果你在第三條船下水的時候你第二條船又回廠大修了可是已經過四年了第一條船已經做第二次大修了所以你看這個重疊去以後這個負荷不是海軍這完全是台船公司他的人力負荷訓練成本你看這個圖就知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
7329.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
7345.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
15年太樂觀了20年可能比較有一點彈性所以不要把話講死只要是有修船返廠做大修跟他交船同時開工有兩條到三條的時候是他最大的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
7346.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
7369.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這個東西我想以專案管理的角色我們請海軍參謀長跟邵參事把我們的看法跟建議因為今天並沒有台船的代表我們要提供我們希望在合約的框架裡面你要保留你的彈性因為你的人力複合就那麼多如果同時兩條船的大修回到財團 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
7371.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
7381.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
你的設施你的乾屋你的墩修船造船你有些是相同的人力所以這個部分要請注意到所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
7383.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
7406.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
海軍規劃的7艘至於是用這個特別預算或者中間有部分是年度預算還有包括返廠大修的預算有部分是同質有部分是要額外加希望將來能夠敘述清楚那麼最主要就是船廠跟海軍我們面對的挑戰跟風險主要就是人力的負荷可能不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
7407.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
7436.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
接見官兵不夠現在兩五六官兵出來很多人都去投入參與督導監找監照甚至參與一些文件的寫作從另外一個角度看就他兩五六戰隊本身成平時的戰備訓練有沒有衝擊有衝擊那麼海艙廠的人目前是自製造其成來算這是樂觀指數可是將來你碰到如果海軍說這個船全部要回到台船去大修 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
7437.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
7462.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
你的設施配合那同樣因為15年的騎乘是相當的緊湊的當年我們光華案造成功級的船我們概估的預算是1200億平均150億實際上很多是硬體設施的投資但是實際上造這個船的時候到了1347億 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
7464.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
7479.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那中間呢後來又因為我跟這個少參是我們都參與過的先進戰鬥系統在美國做研發又追加了11億所以這案子裡面有很多成長的需求是你現階段看不到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
7480.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
7504.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
所以人力的需求包括戰隊變成艦隊基地變成左營加蘇澳你的案前設施你的造船廠乾屋那現在的威海岸的左營港口的擴建跟這個案子裡面有沒有是同步有沒有變成因為落後這都值得大家要注意的另外新兵力的加入準則教範修編人力來源是重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
7506.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
7506.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
國防部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
7529.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
7549.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
所以最後的建議就是說時間彈性要加大另外人力的需求要寬估那麼預算用這個所謂的特別預算跟年度預算中間有重疊處要在修船的建造期程跟大修返廠期程這個要做一個詳細的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
7550.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
7571.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這是我個人向部長提出的建議我跟委員報告今天真的很感激委員等於給我們不但上這一課而且都很具體的最後想也就是海軍不管學長或者同袍、袍子之間他多年一個經驗的累積就剛委員一開始點到這個名稱定位如果說讓人家造成誤會的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
7571.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
7590.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們就後面也要應接不暇解決這個問題所以剛剛委員所建議的給我們指導的從它定位名稱到以後逐年編列預算或者做一個專案的預算還有就是怎麼管控事實上的確做了一半舊的它就要進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
7591.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
7615.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這都我們當初在考慮當中可能還蠻欠缺的所以這個特別感謝委員給我們指導我也會請專案小組的委員就講這個專案管理的概念把它列進去而且都要數字化這樣的話就很具體可以按照我們那個目標百年再節點出來一步一步一腳印的可以踩到目標謝謝委員謝謝謝謝部長謝謝各位謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
7624.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
7631.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
接下來我們待會王帝宇委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢羅美玲議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
7651.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
7654.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
昨天傳出了潛艦國造專案召集人黃淑光上將正式向蔡英文總統請辭我想在這段時間她真的承受了很大的壓力身心俱疲所以選擇在這個階段性的任務完成之後提出了這個請辭 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
7672.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
7679.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
當然這個讓國人感到非常的不捨那在這裡我也要向黃曙光趙局長說一聲謝謝感謝他對國家的這個付出那接下來我想請教的是有關於這個國防自主那在談這個議題以前我們之前有看到有一份報導就是美國眾議院它有一個所謂的Tiger Team |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
7697.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
7699.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
就是老虎小組他有提出來現在美國對台的軍售可能會因為烏克蘭、烏俄戰爭或是以巴戰爭的延遲交付那尤其是有19項總金額高達兩 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
7714.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
7727.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
202億美金的這個武器可能要等到2027年或是更晚的才能夠會做交付那當然這個也讓國人有點擔心就是說尤其是中國已經連續20年增加軍費開支2024年他們的軍費開支更是高達到2320億美元不單單是台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
7737.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
7737.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
7759.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
7779.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
跟委員報告,委員講得很對,有時候其他國家戰爭會連動到其他國家,不管是經濟或者武器採購方面,的確會影響進度。但我們美方之所以成立這個老五小組,當初我們在逐年編列預算要採購當中,的確有一些是連檔的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
7783.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
7810.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
但我們不光是這個老虎小組成立之前我們有作為他成立以後我們更加作為的密切比如說我們一有延宕了我們一定透過各種管道不是軍方跟他交接透過外交部我們駐美團我們都有代表還有透過各種管道哪怕會議我們都會提出來在這幾年當了有延宕了但是都在進步當中而且基本上來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
7812.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
7827.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
可能就講說大家誤會我們又要推延,因為2025它本來要交多少的,2026要交多少,可能變成2025交一部分,把後面的延到2026,但最後截止的日期都不會變的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
7829.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
7841.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
這個我特別跟委員做了說明但國防部不因此而起,哎呀反正早晚都會來,不會因為我們的訓練同步要做假如我們訓練半天,裝備沒有來那這些人就退了,就白訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
7843.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
7859.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
用各種管道讓我們的軍購能夠如期來獲得以便一搭上這全案的推動當中不光只等待這個設施武器我們連同人員的訓練一樣能夠同步而行 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
7860.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
7874.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
是部長因為您這有提到就是說在期限以前所有的軍購的這些設備其實都還會如期在期限以前交付可是像美國眾議院他這邊有提到說很有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
7875.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
7905.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
7906.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
7929.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那我們會因為溝通然後讓他們如期來交付這些武器嗎?這我們期望,我們信説要努力,當然我們要把目標達到要透過很多方法但我跟委員報告我們不推脫因為我們做建軍備戰的工作備戰的概念就是說我現在有什麼一旦發生戰爭我這堆就要用 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
7930.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
7951.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
所以你建軍是未來你採購與否或生產與否那是未來但我不能講戰爭在這個當中不要發生啊萬一裝備還沒有來那怎麼辦我們備戰是每一年都修訂計畫原因在哪裡呢就是為了要預防假如沒有辦法如期來獲得的話我現有的裝備還是要去應付當時的狀況這個是不會變的 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
7957.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
7973.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
上次時詢的時候我就有跟部長提到一點就是說當然我們不能夠一直都是仰賴軍購這部分所以我們才要推所謂的國防自主可是還是有一部分的武器我們還是要仰賴美國還有其他的盟國來進口 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
7975.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
7979.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那目前因為美國的因為這個烏俄戰爭或是這個以巴戰爭它的量能它的產能有這個疑慮而會有所謂的這個延宕這個交付的問題那我們有沒有想過就是說可以來擴大洽談在 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
7992.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
7995.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
臺灣在地生產甚至是技術轉移有沒有可能?這部分可以答覆一下嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
8007.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
8025.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
委員很簡單跟您說明第一個就是軍售不是我們從美方獲得或提升我們戰力的唯一手段事實上這兩年透過其他各種不同的軍事援助方式不斷的在加強我們相關戰力我想委員也從媒體相關報導都可以獲知第二個部分就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
8027.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
8047.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
針對現在所有正在進行中的軍售案我們跟美方的Tiger Team包含它的眾議院的Tiger Team我們都有做很密切的聯繫2027年只是一個客觀的觀察的數據但是我們都盡量希望能夠去在加強美國國防工業韌性的狀況下去盡量提前我們所有軍售裝備的交付 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
8048.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
8069.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那之前我也看到媒體在說就是說其實台灣的態度好像就是在軍購延宕這個部分態度上來講的話是比較軟弱的你這個有什麼說法嗎?你們對這部分就是我們不夠積極這部分沒有說委員報啊有時候好像講軟弱是一個表達可能口吻好像要稍微好委婉一點但我一直覺得講說有了禮職啊氣不僅要壯啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
8073.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
8098.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
理直氣和只要能夠達到目標都是談的一個手段所以假如說片面你看你不夠硬嘛你要硬起來要大聲的跟人家對抗我覺得我目的就要獲得但用什麼方法因人而異因階段而異我們也有用硬的一部分但沒有訴諸於公開所以我覺得講這也是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
8099.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
8118.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
8119.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
8142.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
謝謝部長我正想我們小英總統講過備戰才能夠避戰能戰才能夠止戰所以我們臺灣一直以來態度就是說我們不主動求戰部長你也曾經說過可是歷史的經驗告訴我們下跪跟妥協是不能夠帶來這個和平所以這個不管是對外軍購或是國防自主這部分我想都是臺灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
8143.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
8153.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
正確尤其是國防自主這部分是我們台灣正確要走的這個道路尤其是南韓我們看到南韓的例子非常的非常讓我們覺得說非常的明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
8154.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
8163.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
你要保護自己的國家你就需要有國防自主的這個能力那後面還有一點時間我想跟各位探討一個稍微輕鬆一點的議題就是我們全民國防應變手冊裡面有提到這個所謂的避難包的這個篇章那這個避難包就是說如果發生戰爭的時候可以背著這個緊急的避難包到這個臨時的避難處去做這個避難 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
8182.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
8203.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那不單單是發生戰爭像最近呢我們這地震也頻傳嘛尤其是花蓮大地震之後呢我想有很多民眾都有發現說開始來重視這個防災的準備可是一般人的心裡都是這樣當我遇到地震的時候我才會想到說我要來準備避難包連本席自己本身 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
8203.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
8203.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
﹚國防部長： |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
8223.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
8223.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
國防部委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
8246.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
8246.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
國防部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
8260.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
8267.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我看到他們有推迷彩拖鞋迷彩襪貓窩等等這銷售都非常的不錯我有在想說國防部有沒有想到就是要來做這個聯名的聯名款的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
8286.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
8308.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
國防部的避難包讓民眾可以隨時注意到說其實國防部推出的避難包是我們必須隨時要隨身來做準備的請問那個國防部有沒有這樣子的這個打算我跟委員報陳副委員剛剛所講的我們得到一句話驗證人無遠慮必有盡憂所以陳副委員剛剛講的一再就是這個狀況發生以後再維持一陣子慢慢就淡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
8312.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
8326.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
但話不代表他不注意,慢慢環境造成疏忽。國防部在思考這個問題,事實上我們發這個避難包也好,或有什麼救護包,那是一個樣品。 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
8327.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
8349.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
8350.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
8356.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
國防部在這一方面思考這個問題也一定是朝這一方面是因為我看到這個全民國防應變手冊裡面我們只有建議清單那當然我們在一般的這個電商平台裡面有所謂的這個套裝的這個避難包 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
8365.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
8394.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
可是就像我剛才所提到等你有事情發生地震發生風災發生你才會想到這個東西可是平常你會覺得這個東西跟你沒有什麼關係所以我想說國防部這部分是不是可以用比較就像剛才我所提到的像青年日報他們推的這個文創商品的方式來推這個部分讓國人能夠意識到就是說這個部分國防部也在推而且是有比較有趣的方式讓大家注意到我想這部分的話國防部可以試著來做這是本席給予的一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
8395.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
8396.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
接下來請王定宇委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
8430.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
8451.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
謝謝主席麻煩部長請求部長部長早這個任期將屆但是軍人就是軍人一輩子的工作我有一些問題要請教部長我也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
8452.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
8480.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
也許在最後的階段有一些事情能做的反而更可以放手去做我在請教下列問題我先念一封我接到基層的他已經大概做到副營長了吧的一封信某某單位的輔導長剛接一年期義務役官兵16人最近被長官關注每一天都有不同層級的長官來視導 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
8482.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
8507.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
聯的聯長跟副聯長狀況不好所以從前一天動叭動動到第二天動叭動動輪值迎戰情20小時無休9點的時候政戰主任心腹之人研討會報告聯上心理有問題的人報告聯上有些狀況的人一直到下午我除了隱匿可以辨識他什麼單位以外我都用他原來的字詞反應給部長所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
8511.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
8533.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
要改善這些心理知能研討會上認為需要輔導的人那一直一直做也沒有辦法休息人力不足後來接著做站這個動四動六的夜哨五個連副連五個連的副連長輔導長十個人輪三十天戰情扣掉反台價這句我忘記三了你大概就知道在外島 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
8535.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
8553.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
20天要輪完一週輪一天暫勤還要連上夜間安關一週兩次跟夜哨站兩歇六某某某營區是新營區剛啟封這個連才16個人要自己負擔連上勤務還要支援營的勤務某某人是入關畢業 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
8555.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
8583.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
正期的抗壓性不錯現在是少校副營長現在已經調回台灣整個禮拜只睡幾個鐘頭都快瘋掉了整個基層都快死掉了一直被連坐一直被檢討很多人快坐不下去所以很多人被迫離職邊線筆下降幹部被拔掉懲處進入惡性循環我花了點時間念我不去改他的字部長你當一輩子軍人了 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
8584.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
8607.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我們在場很多將領從小幼就是御校到正期到任官、殷廷帶著充滿使命感來到部隊裡面可我們現在部隊基層發生什麼事情我相信各位比我還清楚基層的幹部的軍官一個衛級軍官、少校軍官或者我們的下士、中士甚至於三等長 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
8609.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
8637.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
他的業務好重啊他的勤務很重啊他的任務也很重這些業務任務勤務繁重的狀況下這些年輕我不好意思說孩子們都成年了就跟我兒子那個年紀一樣20來歲的年輕人連休息時間都沒有被壓縮休息人一直壓縮因為他是領導幹部有責任感我一定要把長官交付的命令達成有什麼問題自己要扛起來就一直扛 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
8639.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
8662.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
連休息時間都被壓縮不要說生活了私人的生活交友跟外面正常的互動跟家人我們在場有些將領有時候進到洞裡面一待多久可是當二十幾歲年輕人他面對這樣的生活情況的時候有的就只好離職嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
8664.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
8664.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我能不能拜託部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
8692.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
8719.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
我們一起努力來解決這個問題解決方法第一個是增加人力那個沒辦法速成我希望邊線筆拉上來我希望把預算原額把它填補上來這個該做這個永遠都該做但有一些當在部隊是上而下的體系掌握權力大的有時候一聲令下馬上可以改變的東西像合理化減少業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
8721.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
8748.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
合理化減少勤務合理化任務軍人沒錯軍人不是該死啊軍人的天命是守護國家服從命令但是軍人是國家的資產從一個下士一個少尉哪怕到上將包含您都是國家重要的資產犯錯該罰但是我們應該給他一個合理的工作環境比如說我們在立法院這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
8750.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
8771.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這麼多年了外面走廊上面我看到有些中校少校相較各位可能比較低階的一站站一個早上我們也覺得其實有更好的方式更合理的空間讓大家更能夠全心全力面對該做的工作而不是耗損在不必要事情上這個過世的案子我認得我認得這個過世的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
8780.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
8785.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
所以部長你在接下來任期內我們能不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
8787.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
8811.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
具體的減少一些真的是沒必要的業務沒必要的書面沒必要的紙類沒必要的填寫沒必要的APP沒必要的就那麼不斷的重複做一些沒有用的事情我講的比較過分一點部長我不知道你怎麼回應我第一個題目第一個跟委員報告的確很遺憾但我不否認有這種事情的確會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
8813.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
8830.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我也不推責任,因為我不能怪基層幹部或他當事人事實上我們國軍有很多時期,很多幹部,很多長官都在要求我們很清楚,我們開不了員,所以開員人力增加當然是該做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
8831.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
8853.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
但我們節約人力的運用是一直在努力的我不怪罪這些基層幹部我一直在跟我同仁講說基層他畢竟經驗不夠要靠我們中高層的人去教假如說中高層的幹部他當初也叫基層一路過來的他根本體會不到但我承認會有這種問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
8855.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
8877.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我經過這麼多年努力包含前面部長也在這方面也很努力我記得以前更早期李部長和海軍的他都要求把連隊裡面這些表部冊撿到最低剩兩樣一個長人點名冊一定要有第二個就查照部就加這個這樣子其他通通免沒有做經過了幾年以後他又出來我不能怪他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
8883.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
8901.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
所以我跟委員報告不光是答應委員而且這我覺得我們應該要做的基本工作之一我請各軍種真的要好好檢討一下我們的規定不要再增加了我看過一個電視劇叫日劇叫Change那個首相快下台前 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
8902.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
8923.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
大家都以為沒有什麼事可以做了他看到桌上放著一杯一杯的茶每次開會泡一堆茶都沒有人喝他就算一算這一年要花八十幾萬他說我們哪怕做到最後一天可以改可以省掉一點錢我們都把它改掉所以部長跟三軍的參謀長跟偵探局長我們是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
8924.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
8949.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
因為你們現在的位置可以做事情如果你當年在少校當年在上位我要你去改這個齁我坦白講緣木求魚你們也是一路這樣上來的能不能檢視一下我們現有的勤務任務表單而且三個軍種齁把列為KPI以後我在陸軍很合理陸軍沒有莫名其妙表單每一張單子都是有用的東西對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
8951.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
8969.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
甚至於可以合併就合併啦可以有的會自動填寫就自動填寫了你們比較內行我們看到的是問題那我不希望在這邊責備任何人因為大家都很努力可是有時候上面越關心下面的單子越多上面越要求減輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
8971.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
8996.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
接下來的事情更多本來還輕鬆點現在要開一個會大家來研究我們不要這樣做我就說就部長跟各位參謀長跟各位業管就你們知道的你就將心比心我當時當上校的時候我覺得這個簡直是莫名其妙的我就把它改掉那我覺得我們在立法院願意支持這個事情這個事情看起來不比飛機大炮重要看起來不比飛彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
8999.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
8999.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
9021.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
9025.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我跟委員報告我絕對有這個把握我可以改變這個雖然經過這幾年努力我到各單位去我想你們簡單簡單簡單到最後還是搞很複雜但我還是這句話我不怪他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
9051.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
9079.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
但我跟委員報告我現在目前已經改兩樣事情也是關鍵第一個以前部隊推動任何工作啊長官很簡單他要求我們要零缺點我這句話我絕對不講不會沒有缺點你要求零缺點他唯一最快方法出面改一改那就零缺點我們絕對不這樣做第二個我不做評比了這個聯跟這個聯做評比打個迎擊啊跟旅客啊評到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
9080.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
9101.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那可能這個當中就出了很多弊端有些幹部稱之為比較機靈的就用這個方法可能會造成後患無窮我們多年的經歷在部隊裡面我也曾經有遇到過長官的要求不合理但我知道就等於我片面不能夠改變但事實上我要跟委員報告我從當基層幹部開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
9103.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
9111.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我到現在做法都沒有變喔簡單扼要不要搞那個鋪張的部長因為時間關係我努力我們在可見的這幾個禮拜紮紮實實做一些改變出來讓基層的幹部有感受說欸不一樣好不好另外喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
9121.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
9146.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我請教我還有兩個問題我看我移到第三個問題請教部長我們現在海軍的冰海作戰指揮部預計要成立嘛那下轄海豐大隊飛彈快艇跟海洋艦針就我們一些雷達相關單位這個訊息沒有錯吧因為這個已經談了相當時間那這個指揮官的邊接會把他拉上到中將的位置我以下這樣表述有沒有錯誤那個海軍參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
9149.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
9170.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
報告委員因應整個的目前我們法定預算不管我們雄風系列或是魚叉飛彈的逐次的成軍在可見的未來是一定要做一個這個是一個對的啦因為你看烏克蘭沒有海軍還可以打的黑海艦隊逃到處都是我現在要講的是我看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
9170.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
9196.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
我看到媒體報導的所以我現在要請教你如果不方便回答我們可以私下討論就是這個單位將來是要負擔24海里內的防務對還是錯報告委員這個不會是在24海里內因為我們整個我們不方便因為這是整個防衛的概念我講我光看到下轄海豐飛彈快艇還有海洋尖針然後這個單位管24海里內防務我就看不懂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
9197.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
9225.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
因為我們海豐大隊隨便一顆都飛幾百公里啊那你只管20台里這一看就所以我認為這一段描述我理解不過來我今天才要請教你好那所以我們管的包含載台載台就是不管是快艇或者是移動的車或者是雷達或者機動的或固定的我們這個單位是管這一個至於這個載台上面搭載什麼系統要飛多遠要做什麼事情那是另外一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
9226.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
9230.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那這就牽涉到說將來這個單位是直接屬海軍指揮還是暫時轉為作戰區去指揮還是直接向參謀本部指揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
9238.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
9265.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
報言這個都在我們目前編設的考量中間那是我們的目標就是在結合平跟戰那平時的訓練就包含了艦增能力跟打擊跟用兵那在作戰當狀況提升之後他會都在整個制海下面他會做一個比較有效率的轉換所以指揮鏈你們還沒有確定我們已經有規劃但是不會在這邊因為我知道不方便你可以講不方便啦我們國家機密國家利益為重我最後提醒就是說指揮鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
9266.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
9266.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我們現在休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
9685.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
9688.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
各位同仁請就座我們準備繼續開會後面請就座 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
9716.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
9716.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
馬文鈞委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
9738.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
9749.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
馬委員好部長好部長現在您的心情不知道怎麼樣不過真的如果是沒有負擔的話我覺得真的可以做更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
9750.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
9768.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
多現在可能比較不容易啊時間時間如果就您的規劃如果說像現在做一些修正我覺得是可以立下這個長期的規範我覺得這個也是好的因為剛剛其實委員有提到的就是像邊線筆或者像這樣業務的問題其實它一直存在那 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
9774.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
9782.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
其實剛剛其實當說要精檢一項業務的時候其實底下有人在笑因為精檢一項業務就是又多了一項業務所以我們很期待怎麼樣其實應該是不是因為我們人就是不多而且越來越少的情況之下是不是就一些單位我們應該要整併因為剛剛聽起來像我們的濱海指揮部又要成立那你這個勢必又要增加人 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
9805.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
9811.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這跟煮菜一樣一個廚師煮給五個人吃還是一個廚師可以煮煮給一個人吃也是要一個廚師所以變成說我們在這個部分如果沒有一個改善的方式我想它其實還是會不斷不斷的發生因為本席在上一次也就國軍跟單位邊線比不足的問題影響到官兵調職授訓這樣子的權益部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
9832.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
9835.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那時候也表示絕對不會因為邊線筆的問題來影響官兵他的相關的權益不過接下來我們又接到的陳情他可能不是以邊線筆為理由而是以陸海空軍軍官士官任職條例來做規範因為有時候曲解法令或者他的解釋其實是誤導的 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
9859.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
9881.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
他就變成對一些我們的一個軍事官兵他的權益會有嚴重的一個損害像我們剛剛就是我們提到的就是說像受軍官士官基礎教育期滿任職未滿5年的像這個就他就不可以動或者他不可以到其他的軍事單位以外的機構去做去調整這個在第23條 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
9887.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
9902.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那這些機構指的是總統府國家安全會議以及所屬單位還有其他非軍事機構照理說如果是我們國軍弟兄不管是在哪一個單位其實他其實就是在我們的國軍相關的單位裡面就是在軍事單位啊那為什麼不讓他有機會去做考試呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
9910.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
9936.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我跟委員報告兩個問題第一個剛才委員已經提醒了很多地方在退之前在離開之前可以做一些改進我事實上我要跟委員報告這有很多地方不用改進以前的規範都有欠缺就一個落實執行我們在這一方面我會強化但絕對不會像委員講的研究一下怎麼樣減輕反正反而這個又變成一個工作我們絕對不會這樣做第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
9937.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
9940.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
至於人員調整的問題,有時候這個範疇不太好拿捏,譬如說國家安全方面的單位,你譬如說在這個不管是……部長,我指的不是國家安全單位,我講的就是說其實基層的弟兄他想要調單位,或者想要有一個機會去參加徵選 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
9958.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
9958.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
沒錯沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
9974.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
9993.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
上午委員跟我提到有些單位主管就拿著邊線筆不夠所以不放人這也就是我們規定以後有沒有落實的主要焦點我們很多規定都很清楚委員長講的只要符合的你為什麼不讓它掉但它在執行當中有困難的話我們要從這一方面來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
9999.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
10019.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
執行不當的問題我不怪基層的我一直在強調基層畢竟經驗不夠我從中高層開始要求我們現在在座各位都是聯參次長以上同仁還有各軍總最起碼參謀長以上同仁我想這個他們要聽了以後回去真的要務實的去做就是務實這兩個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
10021.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
10026.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
因為待會我有其他的議題部長您說的我相信在場的也聽到陸軍參謀長也在後面陸軍已經發生很多次類似這樣的案子就像邊線筆之前不是用邊線筆你現在換成用其他的條例來限制可是到最後才發現這個不是要限制他們不可以這樣限制他們可是他們的權益已經受損了這個部分我們希望不管是哪一個軍種 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
10050.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
10059.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我們參謀長這邊其實也可以特別去關注一下好不好不要影響到我們所有的軍事官兵的權益因為像不管部長也好司令也好參謀長也好當你們的辦公室當你們要挑幕僚的時候你們還不是從各個地方去挑的嗎那時候有考慮到邊線筆嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
10072.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
10096.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
所以我們希望就他們在他們的規劃裡面或者他們有機會可以去調整職務或者可以升遷的就不要影響他們這樣好不好這一定的他在一切工作正常運作我們當然知道權益嘛我們強調講官兵的權益我們要注意不要去剝奪但我要跟委員多講一句我們在用這個人與否放不放他 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
10097.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
10099.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
所以這個部分我相信其他在座的各位我相信他們都已經聽到了這個部分我們希望也不要再發聲好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
10120.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
10122.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
接下來我想請教部長,因為這一次我們潛艦小組已經要解散,所以這只是報紙提的? |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
10139.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
10140.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
海軍有預估出來嗎?有嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
10158.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
10164.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
2800億是我們那裡已經出過出來的嗎?有這個數字嗎?報言這數字目前我們還沒有確定因為我們還在整體的規劃中有嗎?有沒有這樣?有這個數字嗎?這個部分我們還沒有確確的案我們這邊數字不上所以報紙為什麼會知道?這我們不予評論所以以後你們2800億不是你們定的? |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
10186.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
10190.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
不是嗎所以其實是有這個數字可是有人已經先給了媒體是不是你只是還沒確定嘛可是已經有這個預估的數字了我想請教一下像這樣的預估是怎麼預估的我們現在因為沒時間就這個部分我希望以後我可能私底下希望你們把這樣子相關的評估還有這樣的預算的估計 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
10212.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
10233.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
提供給我們委員會好不好接下來我想要討論的就是說這一次我們原型艦海昆艦原型艦其實大家都希望我們的國防戰力是可以增強的可是我們在有限的預算底下我們在乎的並不是誰的豐功偉業而是我們在乎的是一個真正能夠作戰的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
10236.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
10252.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
國防武器的研發包括我們的裝備今天如果潛艦可以成功我相信大家都樂見可是因為在這個過程當中我們也不斷的提醒而且在過去的分分擾擾是我們造成的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
10254.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
10260.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這個部分我們還是希望可以去查查清楚因為原型艦如果沒有成功後續艦其實就不用談了原型艦發生了問題你都不敢去面對或不敢去解決你就不可能造出一個成功的我們後續的其他的潛艦你還要成立艦隊如果他是不能作戰的他要怎麼成立艦隊所以就這我們初步看到現在因為整個形體也出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
10280.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
10286.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我們看到我們這個整體的有三項大家可以來討論因為在海軍有相關的退員其實大家都在關注也很希望他可以成功可是他們的看法有很多人專業的看法認為我們整體後勤支援這個是沒有建立一個完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
10304.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
10320.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
建權的這樣子的一個後援的後勤的支援那另外我們也看到現在出來聽到的有很多其實他我們捨棄軍規改商售可是商售應該比較便宜我們反而更貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
10322.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
10343.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
顯然我們在跟美國其實有史以來關係這麼好的情況之下如果我們可以選擇軍規我們有更好的保障而且美國他可以讓我們的系統整合可以做一個有效的一個整合可能對我們還是更有保障的因為現在看起來我們這個海昆艦他包括他的設備來源他是八國聯軍他包括他的技術顧問 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
10351.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
10356.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
他還高達17國未來我們的後勤資源的這些相關的這個建立到底要怎麼做我覺得很懷疑因為潛艦他從建案扶勤到除役他至少可能需要40年以上的全受期從無到有而且這中間我們的OID級的保養保修跟零附件的需求他的基本配付 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
10376.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
10377.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
都是必須要有相關的這些完整的後勤資源的配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
10383.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
10393.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這麼多的國家我們無法想像而且他後面是不是可以拿得到完全不知道這是第一點第二個可以軍規我們不用因為美國其實根本根本不害怕中共的打壓如果現在因為這個媒體也都披露了還有還有很多的什麼名嘴還有我們所謂的顧問都可以在直播或者在很多媒體上面都可以公開講了我們剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
10410.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
10414.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
做了很多的樣子簽了很多的文書我都覺得那個在媒體上面講的都比我們的剛剛的機密報告還要多還要深入還要廣泛所以就這個部分我們都我們很希望他是可以成功的如果可以採後面的這7艘 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
10432.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
10441.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
如果可以讓它更健全我們希望是採取這樣的模式第三個就是用人不當的問題因為像這個部分我們為什麼會覺得紛紛擾擾在這一次的潛艦國造裡面因為有人爆料如果聽過錄音檔的就不難發現光是記寫這塊大餅我稍微提示一下內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
10459.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
10464.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
IDS聘用兩家計協公司其中GL是詐騙集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
10466.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
10475.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
SI是拿錢不做事都沒有盡責所以台船急著找新團隊因為原型艦的計寫預算被GL跟SI都已經用完了所以第二到第八艘的預算他還沒有確定的情況之下把目標放在海龍跟海虎艦的延售案這個都是在錄影檔裡面提到的包括我們的海龍海虎的延售案 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
10490.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
10513.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
都已經被禁語所以在延壽案的主合約商是中科院臺船是次合約商等到臺船跟中科院簽約以後就可以撥一些預算來聘請新的團隊接下來新的團隊他的合約是5年在這個寄寫開架是4億可是我們有顧問允諾他3億 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
10518.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
10520.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
可是在這個顧問跟廠長的對話當中又希望他可以編列4到4.5億因為他同時不算一句否則我們要吃什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
10531.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
10549.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
如果一個3億可以做的案子他要編到4.5億這中間他的利潤或者他被誰拿走這個我們不應該了解嗎另外一開始這個顧問韓方的記寫他表示只負責延售案不必收拾我們原型艦的爛攤子 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
10554.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
10578.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
可是這個郭顧問表示必須先處理原型艦因為也不用擔心紀寫顧問只提供建議不會要求他們扛責任如果處理完延秀案的原型艦自然而然第二艘到第八艘就是他的紀寫新合約就有20年至少20年預算出估140億而且還可以保證這筆錢都是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
10583.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
10599.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
在這裡我們要提出來的是這中間已經有這麼多的問題這個部分其實我也提供給國防部也提供給調查局原型艦花了530億剛剛大家都說這個當然不是用儲的說一燒多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
10600.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
10613.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
當然不是可是他預算就是變這麼多他就是造出這艘艦他到底用在哪裡必須讓大家清清楚楚那裡面有沒有不法或者有沒有弊端他都應該查清楚甚至連找來的這一 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
10616.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
10633.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
S.I.跟G.L都是一家新華和公司找來的這個部分我們請海軍跟國防部都可以徹查清楚這個到底是誰的公司他們到底是不是真的拿錢不辦事是不是真的一點都不專業這個部分也請查清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
10634.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
10638.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
邵總將邵參事也在這裡我相信你對整個潛艦的過程你也非常清楚我記得我們去台船的時候那時候我還請教因為你說我們建隆級潛艦我們延宕了三年我們的延壽案可是我們的IDS可以順利還可以甚至超前我不知道什麼原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
10658.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
10684.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
因為又有惡霧戰爭又有疫情可是我們居然沒有受到影響到底是什麼原因這個部分也請把提供給我們委員會好不好時間的關係就我們剛剛提出來的在你的整體後勤支援的部分在你如果可以走商售而不是用可以走軍規而不是用商售的手段因為你沒有比較便宜啊人家人家 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
10686.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
10710.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
相受是可以比較便宜比較容易取得可是顯然我們好像是背道而馳另外有沒有用人不當這三個部分我們請查查清楚後續見才有可能成功我們希望他成功可是不要拿很多冠冕堂皇的理由把責任都推給別人把污水都往別人身上潑結果花了錢的人一點責任都沒有然後說辭職就辭職如果出問題怎麼辦誰負責?海船嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
10716.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
10723.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
少參事嗎?海軍嗎?接下來要給海軍跟部長這個絕對機密的案子當時不是說部長只知道進度總統也只知道進度嗎?那你們可以掌握什麼?如果你們沒有查清楚那你們可以掌握什麼?因為我想實際上的關係就這個案子他未來還要花費非常高的預算那他前面應該要查清楚的我們還是希望國防部可以查清楚部長您是最沒有負擔的 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
10744.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
10769.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
今天如果對我們國家對我們的國軍對我們的國防安全還有對人民的預算是有幫助的我們也請部長可以多費心謝謝所以我執著我一定要在最後一刻能夠盡量讓海軍這些專案人員朝西方去努力我要簡單跟委員報告我已經發覺想說為什麼會讓人家產生有沒有弊端的疑惑 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
10771.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
10788.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
就他在一個編組當中啊就為了一個變異形式人員盡量減少只要我們幾個知道工作進度會快但是一快很多該要督管的單位啊就等於是沒有參與一沒有參與就容易有弊端所以我們基本上已經發覺這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
10789.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
10804.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
以後要防守弊端的發生就在這個最基本的我們會朝這方面努力所以剛剛委員講的原來有弊端案認為還有疑問等一下我們要查所以我們同步來進行到時候有結果的話單獨再跟委員做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
10805.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
10821.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
謝謝部長因為他的全壽期他的預算可能會耗費高達上兆這是非常高的經費所以其實我們也承擔很大的風險我在選舉的時候也被打得非常嚴重可是只要是對的事情我們絕對應該講的應該要查清楚的這是我們的職責跟部長一樣謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝馬委員好各位請回座 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
10834.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
10835.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
10869.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
10892.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
總部長好今天雖然是潛艦的這個相關的一些問題要問但是在這個前面我想因為我們前面做了這個機密的報告但是到最後大家並沒有用機密質詢大家都還是用公開質詢的方式所以呢就是不知道未來就是因為我們在看這個報告的同時有時候會不太清楚到底哪一個部分是機密哪一個部分不是機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
10892.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
10918.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以在接下來詢問的時候當然就會變得非常的困難所以呢這個機密與否的這個標準不知道是否可以在下一次有這種相關機密報告的時候可以讓我們知道一下這是一個小小的建議那第二個就是剛剛因為今天一直提到這個所謂2800億的問題那我無意去討論說這個數字到底是什麼出來的等等之類的不過我們比較想要知道的事情就是說因為現在有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
10918.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
10943.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
一直以來就在討論說這個到底有沒有舞弊啊為什麼會有那麼多金錢啊為什麼又上漲啊等等之類的我覺得很多細節啦那其實對我們來講我覺得最重要的事情反而是這種計算的公式是什麼因為一旦有好的公式能夠讓大家知道然後說我們是依照什麼樣的公式去估算標準也包含譬如說我們之後譬如說我們假設假設我們在軍方的採購人員有專門是專門在追這種成本物料市場的這種物價的一個波動 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
10949.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
10976.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
他就可以說我的公式是這一個我是這樣在追的所以我因為這個樣子就估算了什麼數字這一個可能對民眾的說明會更好所以這是第二個建議好那這個因為時間因素所以我就跳過第一個因為這個今天很多人問就是說這一個3加2加2的生產計畫是否生變這個我就不多問我這邊想問的就是我們現在這個海關號已經準備好的話那我們現在的人力的來源跟訓練的規劃到底是什麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
10978.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
11001.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
第一個當然就是因為剛剛也一直提到這個流盈率跟邊線比那我現在不想說因為3月7號的夜報裡面就有提到所以我們現在整體的流盈率大概78.5%那我現在想說在這邊我們不一定需要一個確切的數字這個是沒有意義的但是就是我們這個流盈率跟邊線比這幾年它的這個波動的狀況大概是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
11002.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
11025.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我跟委員報告陳吳剛委員有提到有很多機密或者非機密很難界定事實上我們剛剛竟然在這個機密的會議當中報告的那跟那個有關的一樣可以問但是我們的答覆會可能跟委員報告了解一下我們私下派人去跟您做說明這也是一個界定的一個方法要把它界定很清楚真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
11027.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
11045.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
不容易啦,各有各的看法,這是第一個。第二個,就與關於人員邊線筆的問題,跟將來海昆號還有其他潛艦一代要出來以後的人員是怎麼來調配,我跟委員報告,任何一個建案,它不光只建一個東西而已, |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
11045.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
11068.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
他建同步人員來源、人員訓練、訓練期程以至於到剛才很多委員關切的後勤維保的問題通通納在建案當中要做一個序名所以我們在這一方面他有來源的一個規劃到我這個地方我一個整體的報告的話我只跟委員報告講這個在建案當中都會有列進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
11069.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
11077.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
要加上詳細部分的話我想一樣可以請海軍立刻做一個簡單答覆或者到委員會去做好感謝 是不是可以簡單的答覆一下 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
11079.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
11102.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
報言就是我們現在全軍的我們的流勻率大概都是在76%到78%之間那這個我們也持續在做把這個流勻率能夠來做提升那我們潛艦部隊的官兵的訓練其實他一直潛戰隊是一直努力在做的他也都每年都招考了合格的軍事官那他們也有一些暗示的支援部隊他自己有個訓練流入 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
11103.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
11124.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那這個部分我覺得我們積極主動太推那目前的人力我們在逐步的會跟著後續的兵力調整也在做擴大的選訓員跟相關的教育訓練包含這些訓練跟對外到國外去軍售都是有相關的整個的流量軍事關隊這個我們也持續來努力詳細資料會提供必要的跟委員說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
11125.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
11153.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那這個之後在因為這個我們在看這一個大概在幾年前這一個也是海軍這個學術自己的月刊就一直提到說這個潛艦是兵力不足的問題那雖然現在是一定會去做編制這是因為畢竟這個海關號都已經準備好了但會不會說這邊編了以後結果又導致哪邊的人又變更少那整體的問題對我們來講其實還是會蠻困擾的地方是在於說現在整體有點像是均貧的狀態因為畢竟我們現在剛剛部長有提到我們開源的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
11154.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
11156.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
自殺的案件都已經是他還不是離開他是選擇自殺但是對我們來講現在比較重要的事情就是比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
11181.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
11197.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
現在我有聽到他們的陳情是說希望大家在離開的時候能夠把這一個聯絡方式能夠給家人然後讓家人能夠掌握行蹤但是像這種方式有點還是治標不治本因為他們之所以會有那麼多的壓力很多還是在於說他們的業務太多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
11200.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
11226.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
像剛剛有提到這個業務到底能不能夠簡化然後以及說呢在這個內部的這個長官交辦的事下他可能覺得不合理所以在這一方面呢如果一直沒有辦法做到的話就會變成說大家一直會想要離開嘛這件事情我覺得應該是要被解決所以是希望說能夠剛剛其實定宇委員也有提到那那個馬文俊委員剛剛也有提到一部分就是說到底我們要怎麼具體把這件事情解決這可能是很重要的因為人力夠的話我們接下來才可以去談訓練嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
11228.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
11246.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
對,這的確,剛剛委員點到,還有學委員講,開源節流,我講這個人我捏不出來,沒有就沒有,但當招募這件事情我要繼續做,就開源。但節流,我所謂節流,不只要把人減少,把人力要做的工作把它減少。 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
11247.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
11262.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
事實上我剛跟局委員報告這工作以前早期一直在做但我們現在檢討起來我不怪我們年輕幹部推動不利因為事實上是我們中高級幹部你把他疏忽掉了可能我們中高級幹部他當初年輕有這樣過來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
11264.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
11289.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
他已經這樣過來了所以我就講在這一方面我要求我們中高級幹部要多放下身段往下走要點到跟看到要指導到這才是一個務實的做法我們這工作會持續來做因為它都是沒有停止的你今天這個交會了明天這個新來又來了所以我講我也想把它變成一個傳承變成一個習慣 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
11292.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
11317.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
簡單而要坦白跟委員報告因為當初很多幹部他受的薰陶可能有所不同各有各的胃口但我們持續往這方面努力我也要求我們幹部這三年多來我做的都讓他們知道簡單簡單簡單但是很遺憾沒有辦法如期如質的完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
11319.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
11332.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
感謝部長這組織文化的一個很大的問題那接下來這個是一個這個比較小這個就是說因為監察院的報告那我一直覺得監察院報告有很高的重要性就是因為各位可能也知道最近國會改革被喊得如火如荼 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
11333.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
11352.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
每次來講說這個我們立法委員的調查權那其實我們很多的調查都是監察院在做但監察院有時候做調查有時候會有一個問題就在於說他調查完之後呢後續到底如何我們實在是沒有辦法去做追蹤啦所以我覺得現在在這個質詢的這個殿堂上面是很適合來去做這種監察院的調查後續的追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
11354.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
11374.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這個他是講到就是說這個涉及相關的訓練但我在想會不會也是同一個問題就是跟前面業務排擠有關就是說當你的業務不夠精簡的時候他就排擠到他需要去訓練的時間那不知道這件事情因為這是2023年10月大概半年那有沒有一些相關提出的一個改善的方式跟報告能夠被提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
11374.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
11392.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我跟委員報告,剛才委員講說可能業務太多,以至於事業都會延誤,不是講沒有關聯,但是有些許的關聯,這問題出在哪裡呢?就是幹部久了以後就沒有去督管,我們發覺很多軍中工作,做了一半都沒有了,什麼原因? |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
11393.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
11409.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
所以我一直在强调一下说我们为什么要把一个编组职场表弄清楚节点管制画出来经常要检讨像刚才委员讲这个案子我们也要追的我要追很简单你海军当初的案子谁在处理处理过程我要看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
11410.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
11432.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
你怎麼處理每個月追每季追或者根本就沒有追這就是關鍵沒有他做不到的三年沒有按照週期來做設計訓練這原因啊不是他忙到沒有空我家國防部都在按照週期打把我很簡單禮拜一禮拜二禮拜五你選一天實在沒空禮拜六見 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
11434.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
11453.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
一個禮拜也要三天也就弄完了我講我比照這個方法不是那麼硬邦邦但這個方法就一定要有人管控只要有人問問他就會走他如果沒有人問問你力量再冠冕堂皇到最後一樣就停止了停止就變詬病了 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
11455.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
11455.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
最後因為只剩一點點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
11481.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
11493.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
自產跟進口的訓練我可能下次再問我想問一下通訊相關的就是說因為我現在在看這個中國對這個潛艦指揮通訊的一些研究當然我有時候會認為說他們是有點講大話但是無論如何他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
11496.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
11522.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
這次這個電子課成都的這個電子科技大學他有說他針對這個磁性平行升學的射頻光熱的這個還有中微子跟量子通訊等等的一個技術去做這樣的跟潛艦相關的通訊的溝通那因為成都電子科技大學他是雖然隸屬於教育部但他其實最主要還已經被列入了這個美國政府的實體清單他其實就是解放軍非常重要的一個駭客招募的地點 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
11523.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
11544.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
所以這個對我們來講他們發展這樣的一個技術對我們來講的確是重要的知己知彼所以這邊我想問的一個事情是在於說我們常講作戰靠指揮指揮高通信那目前我們通信第一個它的加密程度是如何那這個如果有不方便回答的我們可以之後再說第二個我覺得比較重要的是潛艦本來就比較難即時接收資訊這是一定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
11545.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
11574.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
問題在於說如果他在沒辦法接受這個指令跟資訊的時候他的那個protocol是什麼有沒有已經建立好了因為畢竟我們潛艦現在就已經海關號都已經ready了嘛所以關於第二個這個他接受命令以及沒有在接受命令的那個protocol是長什麼樣子還有跟盟友就是跟其他的我們剛剛講的是縱向的橫向的跟其他的盟友通訊相關的一個協定是長什麼樣子有沒有在積極的做準備我比較想知道這方面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
11575.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
11594.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我跟委員報告我們國軍做任何事情的計畫他一定有主計畫還有一個附帶的就代表他考慮周延不周延所以細節部分我沒辦法說明但我也請海軍同仁或直通電部門到委員會去跟您詳細做個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
11594.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
11595.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
11625.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
11627.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
接下來請洪森和委員上台質詢請邱部長請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
11648.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
11664.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
會議員好部長好吼部長你有沒有看過這個捍衛戰士的這個Top Gun的這個電影沒有你沒有看過那所以你大概也不太認識這個裡面的這個主角Tom Cruise |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
11665.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
11687.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
主角我認得因為電影明星嘛這是一部很有名的電影就你知道他當然是一個飛行員但是他是不是隸屬於空軍這個部長知道嗎?我概略了解就他在訓練過程當中有補出一些故事但我沒有整個電影去看完他當然在電影裡面是一個他是隸屬於海軍陸戰隊的航空隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
11695.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
11710.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那這個因為美國海軍其實他對於這個飛行的機組也非常的重視所以他們雖然不是這個跟空軍來借調所以他也不是任務編組他其實是一個專責部隊的專屬的官科那當然這專屬官科比較能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
11711.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
11729.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
藉由一個培訓或升遷的管道來吸引年輕人加入因為其實人才非常非常關鍵所以今天這個部長我是要跟你來討論一下我們關於這個無人機的打樁編訓的這個相關的工作部長在之前這個你們在無人機的專案的報告裡面其實有寫出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
11731.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
11739.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
其實你們大概分了三個層級一個包括連戰層級戰術層級跟戰鬥層級連戰層級它的導控距離比較遠150公里以上那配置的軍種是空軍跟海軍戰術是20到150公里是在三軍各部隊那戰鬥是20公里以下那是各基層部隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
11750.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
11765.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那部長這個以我們聯戰成績為例的話我們跟美軍買4架的這個MQ-9B的這個海上衛士的大型的無人機其實我們的金額很高大概200多億元預計在2026年接裝那部長我想問未來這個聯戰成績的這個大型無人機的機組員會是什麼官科跟軍艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
11777.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
11796.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
委員好我是空軍參謀長曹敬平因為空軍是沒有官科的分別是以專長來區分你的這個操作的類型所以我們無人機的部分不會進即便是一個大型無人機不會有專屬的官科跟軍階因為空軍本來就沒有官科的設置但是會以專長的方式來編組所以會有專責編組那這些無人機會怎麼來編組 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
11801.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
11821.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我們未來有一個部隊他專門在負責這個無人機的操作包括他的勤船網路的所有資料收集跟維護都是專責單位是專責單位來處理是不是是專責單位那他們沒有自己的升遷上面的官科沒有在空軍沒有官科的區別但是他的升遷都是很順暢不會有阻礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
11823.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
11838.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
OK,這個我們之前其實看到其實我知道對你們來說其實在基層部隊的小型無人機的部分大概你們會把它當作有點像是一般的步兵裝甲兵的一些延伸的裝備再去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
11840.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
11855.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
目前為止我其實是想要提醒一個事情是說現在在這個大型無人機的機組員上面包括不管是連戰成績跟戰術成績我們在他們升遷的規劃上面是 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
11855.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
11871.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
不要只是落入過去其實可能他只是一個任務編組的這種狀況因為這其實會影響很多其實他可能對這個事情有專業可是他可能一去飛了無人機以後他離開他自己本身的這個部隊的時候他就會遇到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
11872.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
11887.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
外值的斷資的這個狀況可能會影響很多人他其實不願意投入到這裡面或者是他其實曾經投入到他過去的升遷上面管道上面出問題或相比於其他同一期的人來說他其實就會有一個落差所以甚至他在退伍以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
11887.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
11915.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
或者是他比較願意寧願選擇退伍來去向無人機的部隊所以其實是有不少人來跟我們建議或來提醒對於無人機未來怎麼編組尤其是他有沒有一個專責專屬的單位然後來去做他升遷的管道這部分很重要部長這部分也希望你們接下來可以多留意可以嗎我可以各位委員報告有一些這個操作他可能是某樣職務他具備的專長 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
11918.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
11939.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那這個職務他完了以後他就換到另外地方去我其實講說我不能講跟升遷完全無關但有單位他要專業人員比如剛剛空軍所講的他雖然沒有官科但有具備非常經驗的人如果來操作的話那就更好那只有不同的人到這個單位以後他將來的發展也就不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
11940.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
11944.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
對,但是我的意思是說他其實可能到這個專屬的單位上面去在這個專屬單位上面我覺得我們要幫他設計他的升遷的值級 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
11970.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
11991.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
他有明確升遷職籍的出路我們才能夠包括對這個單位進行績效的管考其實這跟我們後面的一些相關無人機的建軍的工作上其實可能是很關鍵不只是設備買進來了這部分是我想要提醒這個部長的事情那第二個是說剛才當然我必須說我們剛才前面進行這個機密報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
11995.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
12016.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
當然我說我們尊重昭偉當然有排機密專報的權利但是坦白說我剛剛聽到說這個機密專報裡面剛剛我們有幾位委員又在我覺得有點小小complain說這個機密不夠機密這機密專報裡面的內容都是在媒體上面看得到的認真說 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
12018.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
12044.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
當在我們國防外交委員會裡面其實之前這個洩密的司法案件的這個疑雲還沒有得到成立清那也包括我們其實在這個這個國會改革裡面對洩密相關的機制可能還沒有建立夠完全的狀況之下我完全可以理解其實到底我今天在這機密專報裡面要放入多少的資訊我完全可以理解這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
12044.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
12058.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以我其實是希望說,剛剛不管大家提到黃曙光這個的問題,假如有弊案該查清楚就查清楚,我覺得這完全沒有問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
12059.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
12084.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
趕快查包括我想部長應該都支持吧這些相關的假如大家有疑問的部分趕快查一下這沒有問題吧對不對這應該的啊既然有疑問嘛我們就要有個交代嘛對但我覺得該對於過去有貢獻的人那當然我們不能否定對過去有貢獻的人應該要給予肯定對對我們不會否定他尤其這是一件非常非常艱難的任務甚至國際上面都不看好的任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
12086.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
12115.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我想大家都知道我們要做臺灣做自己這個這件事情是非常非常困難的在這麼困難包括各種包括對岸上面在技術上面各種透過外交力量的封鎖上面我們能夠有突破這個突破是來自於這裡面我想不只是黃曙光包括海發中心包括臺船大家做了這麼多的努力我明確的說我覺得這個努力不應該被各種方式去踐踏該釐清我們把它釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
12116.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
12131.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
但對於怎麼樣能夠把這個洩密的問題或者是這個機密防制的這個問題我們把它建立好我覺得我們必須建立好所以部長當然也許你接下來的任期還剩一個月我們大家都知道也許還剩一個月但 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
12132.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
12147.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我覺得我還是希望說我們在可以勉勵我們自己的國軍的同仁包括國防部的同仁在這麼困難的工作裡面還是願意不然我說實話以後沒有人願意為國家做困難的事情如果為國家做困難的事情都要遭受到這種貼標籤甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
12150.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
12168.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這麼多捕風捉影的指責的話我覺得真的沒有人願意做今天我覺得今天在委員會我們還是必須把這個話給講出來謝謝我現在委員喔委員講得很對喔有些事情我沒辦法去改變它但我要改變我自己去調適它不是一輩子來依從事實上剛剛委員也點出幾個問題來 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
12169.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
12193.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
你講機密非機密不講外面都有還叫什麼機密但不一樣哦媒體報跟我們講出來就不一樣囉為什麼有些報紙出來以後他就追了就追了我們就國防單位的這些這些這個有關的人員去追問啊就從你口裡面講出來的跟媒體看到的不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
12193.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
12195.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
從立法院的角度來說當然我們希望知道更多的資訊更完整的資訊有助於監督這沒有問題但怎麼在取得機密資訊以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
12215.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
12241.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我們怎麼樣子防範它外洩的機制坦白說我自己也覺得我自己身為一個立法委員也覺得這部分立法院有責任把機制給建立完備這也有助於未來我們怎麼樣跟國防部可以再了解到更完整的資訊包括機密資訊的時候大家都可以有一個在機制上面的信任感我覺得我們比較是從這個角度去想這個事情而不一定只是因為說你給的資料不夠機密我覺得這樣講假如自己立法院內部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
12243.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
12258.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
這個機密管控的機制做得不到位的時候大家信任感也都會怕怕的這完全可以理解的質疑所以我們還是希望說剛剛講到今天這個國艦國造的問題還是希望接下來我們的國防部或者是我們的相關單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
12259.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
12261.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
12294.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
12296.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
謝謝主席 那我們有請部長請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
12306.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
12329.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
委員好部長好我們知道現在國軍正在如火如荼進行這個漢光演習的準備那在第二階段的電腦輔助指揮所演習時間是在4月19號到26號的八天起夜那我想要先請問部長我們在全國軍旅級以上需要參演的單位他們在19到26號的假單我們都簽合過了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
12342.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
12359.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這次我們只針對旅籍以上的指揮所來實施一個演練那其他的營籍以下的他都是維持正常的一個運作包含他的休假跟外産事務都不管這那我們來看一下因為就是有蠻多人他們來提出我們看一下那張圖片好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
12361.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
12377.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
這個是他們在內部裏面在談到就是說所謂的請假的部分那入勤部的參謀長昨天晚上跟我們回報要禮拜四18號下班前才要去批示這個假單因為現在演習時間已經快到了那你可以看他這個對話內容是問說有人要請假嘛問說是不是19到26號他說對 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
12385.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
12413.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
然後對方回答他說NO他就說可是如果我們是有合理事故加證明的情況之下對方回答他說我們沒有然後還是呢因為你們連價單都不給送那對方回答說對我想要請問一下像這樣子的對話他的情況是什麼那我們現在的這一些如果我們的軍人弟兄如果他真的有要事要請假的話那我們現在的狀態是連價單都不能去遞送的情形嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
12414.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
12439.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
委員好我是陸行部參謀長向您說明一下那因為這一次的話是8天7夜那我們也非常清楚說跟往常的一個這個休假方式還會改變因為我預望的話是5天4夜那這一次的話從這個禮拜五到這個下禮拜五從未審慎評估之後根本同仁講清楚說明白那基本上他們有相關的事故的部分完成相關的佐證資料都已經奉核可以批示沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
12447.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
12466.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我希望你們可以去調查一下你們在陸軍司令部裡面的情況因為或許你的認知是如此但是我們在執行下去的時候我們可以看到很清楚這個裡面的對話相關人我們都查核過確認有此事只是因為今天要保護人家所以我們孤影其名但是我是確認過情況的 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
12467.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
12492.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那所以既然你也說到了如果今天我們的國軍弟兄即便在這個情況下他要請假他有合理的理由你們不應該連假單都不給送假單送了之後你要合或不合他的事他的所謂的合理事故合不合理你們可以做評斷但是我覺得不應該對我們的國軍弟兄連假單送出去都不行這個部分可不可以回去研究一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
12492.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
12492.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
我們想要問一下邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
12510.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
12512.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我們這個目前去年9月的時候您談過潛艦國造的進度我們都是按照節點在管制的那請問當時您談這件事情的理由是什麼為什麼當時呢你談到說我們在後續的潛艦預算編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
12526.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
12537.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
是用節點管制的方式那是在接下來的幾個測試通過之後我們會陸續再慢慢的建軍我想請您再重新說明一下當時在9月的時候我們的整個規劃方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
12541.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
12557.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
每個工作推動有它的一個階段性,這就叫節點管制。重要節點我們把它管控了以後,有什麼好處呢?它可能準備不過周圍的,我們已經看出來,你要準備不過周圍,這個節點打不到,我們要督促它。 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
12558.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
12585.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
至於這個後續建的一個建造我當初也有講過沒有錯一定要經過我們測評以後第一艘人艦沒有問題才能夠投注於後面但目前測評正在做那我們就講也得要預化如果做成後面就要建案但這個不是一觸可乘的總目標不會變國建國造國機國造但是我們節點管控是有必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
12586.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
12610.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我是非常同意剛剛邱部長您講到的節點管制的部分因為我們大家對於國艦國造都有期待我們也希望一艘一艘的能夠依次依序能夠做好辦好所以我也覺得目前當時沒有去編列後續的預算是因為我們前面的測試還沒有完成這樣子的一個處理方式跟措施是正確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
12611.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
12621.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
所以我想要問一下在接下來的這個海昆號我們有預計什麼時候要去做HAT跟SAT的測試了嗎?我們就針對可以說的部分說就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
12623.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
12651.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
報告委員現在海關號目前正在執行HAT測試那HAT測試要全部完成之後我們接續才會執行出海試車所以說現在並沒有一個很明確的時間表好那沒有很明確的時間表的情況之下我們又配合剛剛談到的整個節點管制那後續所謂編列第二艘這個國艦國造的部分那會不會跟著這個騎乘那有所往後延期的情況請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
12653.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
12655.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
請問一下我們在SAT測試完成之前會去編列第二艘的潛艦預算嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
12679.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
12702.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
報告委員我們國軍的建軍主要是計劃等預算那如果我們等到第一條船交艦之後才開始準備這個計劃那我們可能要花相當的時間那我請問一下那我們在第一艘的SAT測試做完之前會編列第三艘的潛艦計劃嗎的預算嗎我們不要講第二艘第三艘要編嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
12705.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
12725.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
其實我們現在正在洽談中因為預算到底要多少那個報紙上面寫的很多的數字都不一樣每一個不管是委員從哪邊拿到的資料都不一樣那代表這個計畫預算兵的部分是相當複雜的我們談的是一個那我多講30秒來請說那我們剛剛在機密會議裡面已經說過影響到裝備價款的部分有很多因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
12733.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
12759.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這個部分我還沒有問啦所以這個部分這個我沒有要你講機密的部分我們就是按照因為我現在問的是一個邏輯如果我們當談的是所謂的節點管制它必要性我們也同意部長的這個說法那大家也覺得你今天有做完海上測試之後確認沒問題你要開始啟動下一艘船艦那我們也覺得這樣依序依次的做法是合理的我們都來支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
12760.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
12783.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那如果您剛談到的是說怕第一艘完成之後才編第二艘中間會有一個空窗期那可是怎麼會又編到第三艘去呢就是說你第一艘海上測試完之後到了第二艘這個中間有個空窗期所以你先編一些業務的費用這個我們也能夠理解但是如果一次的把第二艘不要講第三艘了直接編到第八艘 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
12783.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
12784.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
我跟委員報告這剛才前面有委員給我們指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
12803.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
12816.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
預算編列都還沒有定逐年編和專案編這也在研擬當中對我們問的是這個邏輯上面您覺得怎麼樣做比較正確邏輯就台灣人講的很清楚計劃等預算我計劃都出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
12817.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
12838.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
對我哪怕講到最後編滿那個計畫都出來了但哪一天開始這個第一日那就要看我們那個前面進展計畫出來了那他配著預算要通過嗎這是兩件不同的事我們並不反對說要把整個計畫都準備好但是預算要編列然後先通過嗎這個是問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
12839.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
12847.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
所以這個方向上的邏輯今天講的比較清楚了那再來我想要問一下陳建仁院長前幾天突然要求軍中要推行轉型正義的教育請問一下邱部長您覺得現在目前在國軍裡面哪一個部分要轉型正義了 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
12866.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
12894.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我還沒有了解軍中哪邊叫轉型正義他叫你們一個月以內要籌設軍中轉型正義的外部專家諮詢小組要朝向軍中都有在跟轉型正義的工作人員有相關部隊的會或軍中的會他們都找我們去開我們在開當中我們也會表達我們也會表達當然我們軍中有很多做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
12895.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
12911.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
12911.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
12912.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那是哪一個部分呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
12932.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
12950.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那假如說他把這個這個項目講得很明確的話我們就針對這個項目明確的好那我請問一下如果因為陳院長他也沒有講得很清楚如果是要求軍中要去除所有的蔣介石的同項部長這樣子的轉型正義您同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
12951.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
12960.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我已經講過了,這個上面有討論過,當初的規範很清楚,在公開場合他要怎麼處理我沒有意見,但銀區是我們的財產,銀區裡面所有東西都是國軍的財產,我財產我只要沒有違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
12969.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
12989.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那為什麽要去辯呢?所以我一貫的堅持啊。對,多年前講說要我們來做的話,光這一點我有我的堅持。對,但我絕對要跟講得很清楚。不要認為講我們這個行政團隊在那邊攪局。講這個界定不清楚。第一個,你想想,軍中是個開放團體,那我就問各位能不能接受。 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
12991.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
12998.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
就光這一條,我不開放團體,那不是開放團體,那代表我的資產,我知道我要怎麼用,沒有違法,沒有去變賣,沒有去改變,我為什麼要 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
13004.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
13021.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
許讓別的人來改變這個現狀好我是支持這個部長林的這個堅持但最後還要一點時間問一下就是說我們一直很關心限職不良11的案子那先前已經兩次這個也讓部長在這個地方我們委員會裡面談過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
13023.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
13037.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
但是您的態度我們都很認同可是我們整個同仁在這個運作的過程當中似乎是感不太上的所以已經過了好一陣子了211的自傷案你們也都提出在這裡說要有檢討的報告要來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
13041.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
13052.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
可是我們3月22號發函縣指部跟4月12號發函國防部都沒有回覆正式的公文請問可不可以簡短的說明一下當時承諾的211案 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
13056.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
13079.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我跟委員報告 任何一件不幸的事情發生都大家遺憾但我們就一去追的話 一定從內部外部通通來考量我記得上回委員我講一句話 有一些人他的個性比較抗壓力不一樣的那後來委員就引用這句話 哎呀好像講得太殘酷了吧我沒有要推這個責任 事情一發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
13081.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
13095.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
內部要檢討管理方面有問題打邊方面工作分配是否得到有管教不當的問題外部他的感情方面家庭方面債務方面這我們就要納入檢討出來以後我們不能公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
13096.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
13108.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我們不能公布,因為公布以後被我們的獨斷了,會造成其他後遺症。既然檢調介入了,檢調的報告依那個為主。加州委員要這個報告,我們拿不出來,所以檢調還沒給我們。要給我們,我們檢調了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
13111.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
13115.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我舉個例子來說當初你們在質詢的時候你們明明沒有去看班表卻直接講說已經確認過了他就是戰二邪六這個不需要檢討嗎?這個部分的檢討報告跟檢察官有什麼關係? |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
13135.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
13159.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那為什麼什麼都沒有呢?我們詢問了老半天也都沒有呢?所以我講的是整個211的事件是非常多嘛因為我時間不夠所以不用給我答覆但是你們應該要提供書面的資料我是說因為我時間不夠我要尊重主席我時間夠的話你們可以講啊那個主席如果同意的話可以讓他們講我只是尊重主席的時間好不好那你們做答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
13160.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
13162.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
所以你們行政調查報告的部分也不能提供給委員會? |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
13180.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
13204.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
因為我們都有提供給檢調部份就沒辦法行政調查的部份也都不能提供當初就是怕會有失公允所以我們在行政調查部份那也一併有來做啊給檢查官那最後我講一下這就是我們現在的一個怪象我告訴大家喔凱凱案在未還委員會他也是檢調在調查的案子衛福部有沒有提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
13206.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
13224.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
檢討報告給所有委員參考是有的所以這裡的很多包含我們的主席都是非常資深的立法委員了你剛剛的說法我是完全不能認同的不然就是你說只有在國防委員會有這個狀況其他的委員會裡面行政調查跟檢調的調查它是分開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
13226.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
13227.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
13255.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
13257.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我想今天是這個潛艦國造相關的機密的這個匯報 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
13278.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
13296.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那我不想就技術細節來去討論因為這些技術細節說實在話對於民眾的溝通上面它除了增加理解的難度之外它是屬於包含軍中或者是真的是在研究這一部分的人所必須要去做技術細節的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
13298.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
13309.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
但是對於風險溝通或者是對於我們民眾的溝通來講那我認為我們必須要很清晰的跟民眾談目的的導向是什麼我們從目的的導向來去討論為什麼需要潛艦因應什麼樣的挑戰我們需要潛艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
13313.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
13327.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
部長可不可以不是這樣對我說也是對大概所有的民眾來去簡單的讓他們知道我了解一個國家認為一個國家要做防衛的話他主要還是要靠國防的力量而國防力量包含了建軍跟備戰那將來要發展什麼樣的戰爭這是一直在研判的 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
13331.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
13354.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
為了因應將來作戰,我們要自我防衛,達到這個目標,我們要發展不對稱的戰爭。什麼叫不對稱?就以我們比較簡單的裝備,對付你的大但是不好發揮的力量,這就叫不對稱。那潛艦不是這樣子嗎?如果一艘潛艦在某個地方潛到水底邊, |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
13357.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
13367.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以潛艦它能夠發揮它不對稱的戰力它可以使出它的震懾的能量讓敵方的水面艦然後會覺得受到威脅那所以會三思來去決定是否要來進行對台灣的攻擊所以它是屬於戰略性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
13381.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
13408.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
能夠震懾的武器系統可以這麼說嗎可以這樣講從戰略到戰術都會發生一個相關關聯性我可以這樣講那為什麼要自主為什麼在潛艦的這一個要國造而不是透過採購的方式我跟委員報告我們講的有型戰力無型戰力不是什麼賣弄的學問有人在那一聽就懂什麼叫有型戰力就是你有徵收的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
13409.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
13434.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
徵收到敵情以後你有傳達的通訊的能力第三你有通訊能力得到的敵情以後你要去把它給摧毀掉要有激動能力跟你要有足夠的火力這四樣以後還有一樣更重要的後支力什麼叫後支力後續支援的能力假如一個國家的裝備它沒有辦法自我來生產的話一切找的外購 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
13435.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
13455.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
外國裝備來打掉一樣掃一樣可是至於我這能耐建的話我打掉一架我另外再建一架這個就源源不斷的後之力這是重要有形戰略一環我想所以這國機國造國艦國造聽了以後看以後這個必要就很明朗了 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
13456.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
13471.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
部長所以在面對我們這樣的挑戰的時候可是我們現在面臨到的可能不是需要10年20年之後才會面臨到的挑戰就是各國的智庫都直接提到說一個關鍵的年份好像2027年那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
13472.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
13496.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
採取國艦國造的這樣的狀況的話有沒有辦法去因應立即的威脅我跟委員報告任何建軍它是一個長遠的一個目標但是我們南寶想達到目標之前沒有戰事發生所以建軍跟備戰最大的差別在哪裡建軍是未來的戰你要籌貨跟軍備要支持一件件籌貨但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
13499.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
13523.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
備戰呢,你在籌貨當中敵人來了,我不能講我都還沒出來,你先不要過來,那不可能,所以這就備戰範疇。備戰就是說你現在你有什麼裝備,我們就要去應對。那我們在建軍以外,這個備戰工作是每天在做,每一年都要做檢討的。我有十年建軍構想,五年的兵力整建計畫,但是唯獨 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
13524.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
13553.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
備戰計畫是每年要修訂所以這就是為什麼我們要做漢光為什麼要做專精為什麼要做基地成效這個建設就是為了備戰所以不管達到沒有那是未來的能夠有最好但是總比我們連計畫都沒有那未來是遙遙無期的但我們在未來等待當中等待未來當中我們現在有狀況來一定可以要因應所以我們有備戰的這個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
13554.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
13580.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
謝謝部長我為什麼問這些問題從戰略性的問題開始講可能大家會覺得是理所當然可能甚至會覺得是不正自明的它不需要被證明的它不需要被解釋的那其實我們談論到的時候都是通常都是以不是以目標比方說目標的導向是什麼而是都已經確認我們要做這件案子了我們要建這一個計畫了然後再來談論說我們怎麼樣完成這件事情但是目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
13581.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
13606.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
要高於手段嘛那我們先知道說他的震懾性在哪裡我們才要把他一直談下去因為其實部長你可能不知道在我們的這些各個不同的社群媒體或者是在電視上面都有很多人在討論甚至有所謂的潛艦無用論所以我們必須透過國會的殿堂讓你用部長的身份來去跟民眾談他為什麼有這樣的震懾性所以我想未來不管 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
13607.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
13610.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
下一任的部長是誰他都有責任來做好這些風險的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
13638.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
13663.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
因為看成是零的話所以對自己的自信會不斷的成長但是這不可以成為常態就是說事實上的威脅就在對面所以為什麼要先從潛艦的這個部分說它的震懾性是什麼為什麼要有這個目的性為什麼要在國會的殿堂上講出來就是必須要讓民眾知道說這是有可能發生的衝突是有可能發生那我們必須要面對它那這樣子的建軍不管是剛才提到的是2800多億還是多少億 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
13664.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
13692.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我認為有一定的正確性都是必要的可是這個時候我們看到說我們現在的國防預算大概是6000多與佔我們我國的GDP只有2.5%那我不希望說我們國家他是像烏克蘭一樣在正2022年之前他們國家的佔比國防預算佔比從1.5%開始逐年遞升到3%2%左右直到2022年之後才一舉提高到33% |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
13694.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
13716.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那33%在當初已經面臨到戰爭的時候你現在那時候的投入就沒有辦法像剛才部長你提到的面臨現在面臨未來的威脅他都沒有辦法去因應了那其實很多包含這一個責任司機總統他們都不斷的在提到說他們的防空系統不足能夠防空的導彈也不足沒有辦法面臨到俄羅斯的這樣子的襲擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
13719.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
13740.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我的意思是說遇到這樣子的狀況的時候我們必須要事先考量因為面臨中國的挑戰是比俄羅斯不管是他們的生產力量剛才你提到國防自主中國也國防自主他能夠不斷的補充他的彈藥不斷補充他的各型式的不管是水面艦水下艦或者是這些空軍的武器建制 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
13741.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
13765.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
所以我必須要請部長或者是我們國防部的這些官員能夠來先預想一下假設我們面臨到像烏克蘭一樣的狀況的時候我們的國防預算要怎麼樣逐年增加我們當然在成平時間是不可能會一舉直接超過10%以上但是面臨到相對威脅跟台灣類似的國家比方說以色列他們的國防占比是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
13766.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
13768.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我跟委員報告,假如遇到戰爭在討論這個國防運動戰怎麼樣增加了,白搭,沒有意義的,但我們現在在做的就是預防戰爭發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
13784.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
13809.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
這是講真話,我們為什麼那麼樣紛紛擾擾呢?臺灣這個地方社會是個多餘的社會,每一個人他要怎麼講,他自由。他的認知如何,我無權過問,也不能去干涉。但我們已經看到這種形態,假如他內心有主宰的話,他不會所動。我剛剛很信心滿滿跟委員講,假如你知道目標為何, |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
13810.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
13830.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
然後呢,每隔多久要建,或者要編列,或預算,這我們內需有主宰啊,不會因為你講一句話有用沒用,哎,我們要考慮隊友還沒有用啊,不會的。因為建軍跟備戰我們劃分很清楚啊,但假如說你要讓這個全民,通通有共同認知的話, |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
13831.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
13855.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
但我覺得我國防部大概沒有很大能力去改變這個因為這已經牽扯到有些其他方面的領域了不管有心無心的我不去多做考慮但是我目前國軍在做的一切就剛剛委員所質疑的一旦惡武戰這種形態發生了再編多少預算我的答案就編沒有用了因為到時候已經來不及了 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
13855.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
13860.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
現在的投資決定未來的威脅,如果現在少投資,未來的威脅就會相對的增高。 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
13882.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
13903.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
前件比較沒有直接關係但是是跟國防部關於食安的議題那關於食安的議題當然就是在台北市的這個保齡的事件那影響到其他這些包含這些供應我們的這些餐點或者是採購的部分那其實對於我們嘉義地區來說那其實是很多無望之災我們已經聽到很多鄉親來反映 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
13904.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
13933.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
包含各種的這一些我們的農業我們再加一下不管是稻米產業或者是木耳等等都反映到說這些供應站它是進行統一採買但是目前聽起來是因為這些事件之後減少整體的大概一成左右那我們必須要強調一下在臺北市發生的這個食安裡面都沒有上述講到的那些食材都沒有發生問題那衛福部也是正式的有就討論過 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
13934.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
13937.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
臺灣對嘉義來說對我們特別是我們的鄉鎮中古鄉他的這個木的產量基本上是全國大概是超過五成以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
13950.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
13952.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我了解,我現在擔憂很多事情講白就無妄自摘 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
13977.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
13984.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
但國軍這個複共戰它成立它是有規定的我們講25個複共戰全國包含外離島但這裡面的規範就有一條就是當衛福部或有關單位一旦提出警訊了我們絕對配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
13996.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
14017.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
但我這配合也就界定他講的幾個項目他沒有講的我們不會講的增加估計類的黑幕白幕我沒有這樣子而且現在半火是各單位的權責我們不給他禁止但我不能去鼓勵我就跟委員講明 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
14018.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
14019.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
接下來請賴氏堡委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
14050.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
14056.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
謝謝主席請各位先進有請國防部的邱部長請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
14063.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
14082.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
委員好我原來今天沒有打算要來看到你來了我覺得還是心裡有些話要對你講一下啦這個你是我看過這樣幾任部長算是很優的部長的之一我不敢說你是最優啦但是是極優的為什麼被換下來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
14090.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
14113.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我先問你心情是很高興解脫了還是說你感覺解脫了還是說心裡很欲足覺得有些重要的事情沒有做完你覺得使命感將軍的本事就是替國家做事使命感沒有達成心有一點點不甘 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
14129.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
14143.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我跟委員報我現在心真的很平靜很平靜我沒有講吹牛啊這樣這睡不著原因我講的不是講說他們急著起來當然啦我這成為整個代代嘛軍人就是整個代代嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
14144.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
14161.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
至於政策有沒有什麼完成沒有完成,這不是問題。為什麼?我當然接受也很多前面的規定啊。所以政策有延續性。我今天要推動工作都是一個政策既然離定了,我離開後面的人他一定會推動。 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
14162.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
14163.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
所以沒有,心情沒有任何的起伏 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
14181.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
14192.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
沒有沒有沒有沒有高興也沒有不高興都沒有沒有欸那很奇怪了就麻木了不不不七情六慾都沒有欸沒有情沒有慾喔這個很奇怪喔抱歉抱歉很平靜啦不是麻木啦抱歉第二個小問題你覺得你放心交給顧立雄嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
14204.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
14221.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我沒有不放心的我跟委員報告我沒有預設他欠你的人啊他欠你的人啊沒有我現在我沒有交任何通知你要交才交給誰真的沒有剛剛媒體也在問欸你們現在辦交接了我想什麼東西交接我人力沒有看到也沒有天堂掌握欸你哪天要交接 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
14222.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
14229.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
第三個問題 我今天問不出什麼 我就覺得心裡很難過 這幾樓 問不出問題啦你看我一開始就趕緊 你今天給我回答 不然的話 我走不出去啊來 第三個問題 我就問你喔 就是說 有人說啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
14249.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
14268.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
有人這樣講媒體最少媒體這樣講後面幾個帥哥美女這樣寫他們說他們說說之所以交給顧立雄是顧立雄不再聽美國人的話你不怎麼聽你主見太強是這樣什麼不會你還是很聽他們的話嘛對不對沒有我沒有聽過這種言論我們曾經也講過欸要聽不要欸怎麼會聽美國人國家都是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
14277.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
14278.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
其實我第三個小問題你對於文人部長跟你們這些將官部長比較怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
14307.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
14322.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
我談了跟委員報告各有利弊,委員部長他可以帶領國軍到另外一個領域,比較開闊一點,但居然說看來很容易進入狀況,但我講各有利弊,比較容易就局限在國防這塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
14323.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
14351.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
國防部長本來就說局限在國防裏面國防裏面他有分軍政軍令跟軍備但加一個文人來理由他會很持平來看這幾個問題像我一路搞戰備過來的的確我有會偏我把這些放在教育訓練戰備操演建軍備我們一定要顧但我在這一方面可能就有所不足但加文人的話他很持平 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
14351.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
14375.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
他不是講說不足,但他會就較於幾位副部長跟總長,因為每位副部長...所以你是比較...你認為文人部長會比將軍部長好,這個意思?好不好,我剛剛就...有,你才有,這樣你意思?就各有利弊各有利弊?還是半斤八兩?也不能講半斤八兩,就是各有利弊啊你總是講一下啊,我得個結論啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
14378.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
14389.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
這好像沒有個結論吧,因為還沒定案,我也不知道...定案了啦,怎麼沒有定案?你看過的最糗的?我沒有覺得我怎麼沒有...我們看到媒體嘛,他那個就是準備接啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
14390.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
14408.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
是不是這個媒體報的歸媒體報我們真的我沒有看到這個人力或告知我你哪一交才請問你最近去恆山指揮所去了幾次我大概每個禮拜六兩天都會去都會去嗎以後郭立雄部長他會不會去不知道啦他說最少你去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
14411.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
14411.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
我去的原因很簡單,因為我們最近這幾年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
14427.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
14443.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我很難離開臺北此為所至的地方因為有一個敵情的變化我大概我的個性人在乎比較放心事實上平常看部隊不管總長或者是各軍總的司令或各專區指揮官他都要看部隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
14444.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
14469.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那我這樣做原因在哪裏?因為我在這一塊比較欠缺加上以前部長他能夠這樣到部長去看的話我可能也就沒有必要在禮拜六禮拜天第1個港中視訊會議了就沒這個必要你會不會期待以後顧立雄跟你一樣每個禮拜六禮拜天去一下衡山市會所不是我沒有這種期待以前部長哪怕軍方出來擔任部長他也不見得是每個禮拜會去 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
14470.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
14477.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
所以每個人做法不一樣所以我才欣賞你嘛光這個的話老實講就不應該換你啦對不對這麼認真這麼怕病要專業要把你換掉好奇怪這報為委員抬愛啦不過講真話喔這個軍政軍令跟軍備各有這個其執掌你有你的看法我有我的看法過去軍政軍令是分開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
14496.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
14507.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
所以軍政是文人來做還可以軍令這個參謀總長現在是議員化參謀總長是聽你的聽國防部長的那種感覺這個東西等於是等於是部長可以隨時overwrite參謀總長啊這個他的一個軍事適用就很重要啊不一樣啊對不對你也知道你又不是鼓勵熊你也知道對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
14526.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
14531.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
來,我問你今天潛艦的問題我們現在總共是要做8艘還是7艘?總共8艘總共在未來啦港式什麼時候做完?港式港裡面的試驗啦來來來HAT部分現在已經開始執行中 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
14547.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
14558.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
對我知道了什麼時候結束啦finishfinish現在沒辦法跟委員報告因為我們一項一項都要過過我聽到了說今年年底預估今年年底可以做完港式是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
14559.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
14586.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我們現在已經在做港式結束啦我跟你講我們結束開始做結束啦每一個人都有想法但是我們海軍基本上在品質跟安全要求下才能過對不起喔憲法規定來這裡講實話喔講實話你要講實話我講的是實話喔工程人員我們一定一項一項都要做完才能往下走我們不敢我們不能這樣講最可能年底可以完成港式可以嗎最可能Most likely可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
14588.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
14615.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
這是我們大家的期望期望不是最可能好海事什麼時候開始做港事做完之後我們繼續執行海事海事要做多久海事也是要看科目我們看到資料還有問了我們大將軍陳永康大將軍這一點他比你們懂很多我幾乎常常去跟他學習跟他學很多功課你們都我都從裡面來得不到答案他讓你都有答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
14618.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
14627.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我必須跟陳偉得到什麼答案對啊 多跟他請教潛水艇的事情請教他是對的對不對 陳姓陳名永康Authonormous 這個別名叫做潛艦專家 專家 中國專家 你要多問他對不對 就不會搞成這樣子還是看起來NAU灰煞煞這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
14644.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
14653.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
還是做完了才能夠去打仗嘛對不對好 那我們雖然期待我就問一下很外行但是很重要什麼時候這巴騷可以開始服役?應該是分...你期待什麼時候可以服役報告每一條船交完件之後成軍訓練完他就正式加入好 那第一條什麼時候嗎?應該是明年明年就可以正式了? |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
14672.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
14693.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
明年交建所以裡面的紅區什麼設備都有是完整的有攻擊能力的一定有攻擊能力不然沒辦法通過我們港式然後再做海事一定是全部都配備完的時候才能做的那你的意思是第一艘等於海事明年就做完囉有這麼快嗎我們希望也是我們期盼 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
14696.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
14721.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我剛問陳將軍不是這樣講的我聽錯了將軍不要生氣我聽錯了聽錯了我所了解的啦齁還是其實還要一段時間啦所以你真正能夠開始去打仗去服役大概不是2025啦大概2026我這樣猜錯對不對請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
14727.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
14748.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
報告委員,我們很想期望嘛,我們大家努力嘛,也沒有講說一定一定要哪一年哪一月,為什麼不敢做這個確定呢?因為測試是個很重要的一個關鍵,因為問題叫改進,改進後面會延宕,我們也不期望延宕,但能不能保證它不延宕? |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
14749.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
14755.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
最後一個小問題巴沙的潛艦如果通通能夠服役是不是夠了還是未來需要再建更多的潛艦來保衛整個台灣的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
14776.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
14796.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
報告委員因為基本上我們是看潛艦整體的戰力來去看這件事情那如果到那個時間點的話我們前面兩艘艦載機可能也超過40年了它也可能要到汰換所以我們認為潛艦應該是就一艘一艘建造出來才能夠滿足我們海軍的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
14796.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
14818.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以大概可以,我最後就結論講完,我就下去了。發燒是不是夠在短時間或者短中期裡面維護台海的安全?發燒夠了是不是?這就可以嗎?這問題我要跟委員做報告。發燒不夠,什麼叫夠?我們有戰力的希望,越整備越強。 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
14819.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
14823.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
但至少我們有這樣基本的額度以後可以做好我們防衛作戰最起碼可以守住我們的臺灣的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
14837.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
14841.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
金費大概就是你們寫的2817艘所以等於8艘的話是3000多億時間的關係簡單回覆就好就回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
14860.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
14870.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
報告委員2800億海軍都還沒講我們現在還正在努力的計算中所以說那是我也不曉得怎麼出來的媒體內寫的是吧好 謝謝接下來請李博義委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
14893.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
14895.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
謝謝我們請邱部長請邱部長李委員好邱部長好你辛苦了剛剛參加了我們這個國防外交委員會對於潛艦國造建案沿革跟目前的進度建案沿革裡面有很清楚的把過去四位總統從李登輝總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
14923.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
14934.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
到陳水扁總統到馬英九總統到蔡英文總統這四任總統對於我們潛艦的相關不管是在2001年、2002年的時候的採購的進度或者是在2015、2016年的時候確定潛艦國造 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
14943.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
14961.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
或者是到2017年之後蔡英文政府開始編列相關潛艦國造的預算開始到目前為止一共在我們的海昆號裡面的預算的編列目前是達到490幾億 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
14964.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
14976.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
也就是說在剛才的秘密會議裡面我們所聽到的不管是接下來的港式或者是未來的這個海式 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
14977.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
14999.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
我們都還是很期待我們的潛艦國造第一艘的海昆號那可以在全世界的人的面前看到台灣有這一個能力來製造潛艦甚至蔡英文總統之後賴清德總統也宣誓未來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
15001.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
15025.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
另外的7艘潛艦希望可以一次的來一次來建造這過程就有很多故事了剛才的秘密會議裡面我們看到很多媒體裡面所報導的跟秘密會議裡面讓我們知道的其實不盡然相同所以如果可以藉由這個機會那也可以請教部長目前的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
15026.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
15040.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
進度以及方向上我想對於國人關心我們的潛艦國造以及潛艦到底什麼時候可以在台灣的四周真正的可以嚇阻我們的敵軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
15044.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
15050.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
謝謝委員提出的抱歉抱歉我剛剛提了幾點第一我要說明剛剛陳委員有跟我指導過的確因為LIFE中有講要一次建完一次建完 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
15070.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
15087.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
一家伙要增加的容量各方面預算編列就成問題事實上剛剛陳委員指導很對一系列而且預算怎麼編列我們到目前並沒有一定要編成一個專案或者大入年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
15088.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
15114.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
當我們聽取各方意見以後覺得這也要為了保持彈性也可以做個轉換因為目前還沒有定案所以還在研擬當中但這個名稱的用法跟後來的解讀是蠻有關聯性的這我們絕對有蠻好的參考這是第一個第二陳福康委員也很關切國務院也很關切實際上陳軍說行程戰力我們剛才概略有講到行程就是說測試沒有問題戰鬥測試沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
15116.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
15143.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
他自然納入戰鬥序列所以這個逐年成長的哪怕是八艘通道定位了到定位以後剛才有講到舊的慢慢叫替換嘛或者再增加的量都40年以上了對啊對這個戰力的這個儲存六年多的啦就你越多資源儲存在那邊越好嘛當然加上你儲存以後沒有人力去維護那也不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
15143.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
15153.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
所以就會找到一個平衡點讓人員也可以維護他戰力也可以發揮不會形成浪費畢竟來自全國人民給納稅錢我們不會平白無故去亂花亂用 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
15160.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
15184.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
謝謝部長其實我們也在這個過程裡面跟我們國人很清楚的說明潛艦國造以及潛艦未來可以怎麼樣來保衛我們台灣的安全的重要性我想也經過大部分人的接受接下來我們確實要面對的是這七艘怎麼造那我如果講到機密會議裡面可能比較敏感的部分那請部長提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
15185.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
15203.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
剛剛您講的這未來的7艘當然包含這個我們建造廠商他有他要造廠的他有在造廠裡面已經造廠之後的成本在那裡了當然這個成本造下去了他未來連續要造7艘對於他的人力也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
15203.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
15231.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那對於他的現在已經造廠的設備已經建置下去也好其實在未來的7艘裡面可能這些預算都是會減少的可能這些騎乘都是會加速的所以到底在未來這一個他還有有沒有需要在另外在做這其他的船廠有沒有在做船廠的這個建置的費用或者是未來可能這些鋼材等等這些設備他還有物條的空間等等確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
15233.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
15262.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我相信現在全世界也幾乎沒有人可以判斷出未來這七艘潛艦預算到底會怎麼樣安排或配置但是我們可以知道的這七艘可能要分成三艘兩艘三艘還是說一次七艘可能必須要跟造船這一邊要再溝通到底是怎麼樣做才會比較適當可能要真的等到我們新任總統上任之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
15262.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
15287.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那跟國防部以及造船廠相關的這些討論才有辦法進行這些預算的編列甚至我們的臨時的預算我們的緊急必須要用臨時的預算來處理這些都是預算法必須要授予給我們國防安全的相關的空間我想這一部分部長是不是可以就這一方面在您可能即將卸任最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
15288.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
15291.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
對於這七艘潛艦一次建造有沒有什麼想法? |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
15304.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
15322.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
但怎麼做是當中有很多要考慮的因素包含我們剛剛講的不管是廠房啊或是物配料啊等等都要那麼考慮可是剛剛委員講的這個越建越多應該越越便宜這倒未必為什麼因為它力量 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
15323.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
15338.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我沒有講越來越便宜,我們是想像這個造船廠它已經建制了沒有錯,但是在它成長數量的過程其他的也是逐步在成長的這我不能輕忽掉原料等等也在成長就好像講說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
15339.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
15367.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
人員他這個力量對不對他越來越大越茁壯但他吃飯也越來越多所以現在媒體上面寫出來的這些預算可能增加多少其實都是沒有辦法去評估的剛剛海軍也講了我們也沒講固定多少錢因為這在一個在計畫當中正在核算但我有跟他們講大概一個百分比我們可以調配出來在這個船艦上大概百分比多少然後在這個物料方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
15368.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
15368.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
謝謝委員我們持續努力謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
15398.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
15402.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
接下來請侯孟楷委員上台質詢麻煩請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
15422.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
15446.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
黃委員好好 朱部長我想今天非常多委員都關心我們潛艦國造的部分其實從馬政府時代開始推動到蔡英文政府8年的時間我想朝野一定都共同支持我們希望我們自己的國防要有足夠的一個堅強的戰力我們也認為是說潛艦國造這個方向是應該要做但是剛剛本時有聽到一個說計劃等於預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
15447.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
15462.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我覺得很納悶喔報告委員他不講等於他等計劃要等預算才能是等所以我就想說奇怪怎麼會剛剛突然講到計劃然後等於預算我想說這樣就不對了這完全就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
15463.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
15476.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
本席現在強調的是什麼?強調的是說現在因為外界有漲到一個2800億我不是外交國防委員會委員所以說我也當然是看媒體報導但是國人95% 99%國人都是看媒體報導2800億剛剛很多人在討論涉及機密的部分你不用回答但是我現在請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
15484.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
15507.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
所以你剛一直在講是說有可能這個是初估也不一定現在還在核算所以也不會講而且你有上午的回答講說2800除以7的話這也不公允對不對好那有可能會比2800億還要高嗎如果說未來我們要做完7艘那甚至還有說增加設備裝備等等所以有可能低也有可能高是不是報告是 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
15509.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
15509.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
報告是報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
15539.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
15567.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
原型艦的成本跟後續艦的成本是會有差異的那差異的部分其實各個因素有增有減例如原型艦的裝備所謂的NRE就是首艦的設計費用他就是會拿掉的就一次性的費用拿掉嘛他會拿掉但是如果構型沒改變這個費用我們就不會再劣跡廠商要劣跡我們也不會同意他 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
15568.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
15588.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
但是物價的指數上面通膨指數上面他是往上漲的那也包含了人工的費用也是往上漲的但是另外還有一種叫做學習曲線的部分他是學習後他會往下掉的所以各種因素在裡面他會去做一個平衡我們都有一系列的公式去估算 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
15589.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
15616.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
是啦 你講的是common sense所以說這一點也是國人一出來之後會嘩然或是會覺得訝異嘛就照理講我們希望是說打造第一個原型艦的時候它可能它是一個高規格指標指標定力大家覺得說可以合格了未來七艘我們都是以這個指標來當作是一個標準來去做那當然國人會想是說你一開始你把標準做出來後續的部分應該是成本可以遞減或說至少成本是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
15617.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
15634.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
大概的但你現在講的是說成本反而有可能會高於原型艦我剛剛跟委員報告不同的參數他有的是往上漲有的是往下漲可是因為現在重點在於是你現在講的2800都還不是一個最終所以有可能低但是也有可能高 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
15637.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
15663.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
再來第二個部分大家也都有討論到潛艦召集人這個黃曙光他其實在去年9月的時候他有提到他說希望潛艦原型艦能通過HAT之後他也希望能夠帶著原型艦測試隊伍展開出海測試也就是SAT那現在我們的原型艦HAT也還沒有SAT可是他這個時候他就離開了請辭了 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
15666.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
15672.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
而且部長好像看媒體報導講說部長還是你之後才知道的消息對 因為他之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
15674.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
15679.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
因為畢竟過去都是黃曙光召集了他一個等於是說他對於潛艦國在那邊付出非常大的心血嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
15704.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
15719.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
但是他也講過他希望是帶著原型艦能夠SAT甚至他也希望是說能夠把原型艦交給我們的海軍讓海軍真的能夠來做運作來做使用但是怎麼有點這個降至未竭的感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
15720.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
15747.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
我跟委員報告大家很關心假如他一離開以後是這個工作就停頓了我特別跟委員報告因為專案小組同時俱存的他在這個推動工作當中是全專案小組人都參與本席當然認同我們國家的重大政策也不能因為任何一個人離開我們就不做了嘛所以小組一定存在專業一定存在甚至我們希望潛艦國造最基本的功能是什麼就是把技術留下來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
15748.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
15769.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
就是當有一天各位將領各位官兵大家也都會退休的一天的時候但至少我們的技術持續延長這才是潛艦國造最基本的精神嘛那今天早上行政院長陳建仁他居然說打抱不平啊他說這個黃曙光請辭他陳建仁媒體標題是說努力但受到抹黑打壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
15772.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
15789.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那請教部長因為您是國防部長本席的概念是你至少國防內部的事情您算是第一個主管 主官嘛黃曙光請辭不是跟您請辭沒有 他沒有跟我請辭那他有跟陳建仁請辭嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
15790.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
15792.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
另外一個部份我覺得您就不應該是局外人了 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
15807.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
15827.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
6天前剛我們有委員有問過6天前在轉型正義的開會的時候陳建仁院長特別指示國防部應該在一個月內完成籌設軍中轉型正義教育外部專家諮詢小組那他的目的是什麼他的目的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
15829.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
15844.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
要國防部對軍事人員養成教育方面應該盡速辦理這是六天前的新聞這不是昨天的新聞可是剛剛部長有委員質詢您的時候你也說你不清楚這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
15844.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
15867.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
因為他參與我們法律師通常都有會議他們去但他有重大會跟我回報但這你講還在很顯然認為說院長這個是不夠重大所以沒有第一時間跟部長講要成立我也要好當然到這個規定嘛要成立我們要做也要做也要有事情做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
15869.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
15875.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那院長特別指示說軍事人員養成教育那我想請教現在我們養成教育出了什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
15877.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
15877.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
國防部在成立的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
15900.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
15901.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
你還是沒有回答到本席的問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
15921.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
15934.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
我成立一個單位我一定是因為現在有什麼樣的問題我需要來去做處理跟解決嘛我成立潛艦國造小組是因為我們現在沒有潛艦國造的能力而且我們認為說我們的國防必須要有不對稱的作戰所以我們成立潛艦國造 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
15935.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
15939.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我跟委員報告是轉型正義條例大院通過的那個條例裡面有一些部會就這個部分要做推動國防部有被規規規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
15957.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
15959.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
所以現在還有多少個部會沒有成立? |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
15978.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
16004.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那天是在一個教育的相關的分工裏面那天是文化部主要來報告嗎有好幾個部會去報告是我們這個部分是我們會照院裏面的指示去找一些專家學者把這個資訊小組把它成立起來本席剛剛有聽到部長的一個答詢本席也是要求就是說不要假轉型正義之名行政治意識灌輸之實 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
16006.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
16032.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
本席講得很含蓄但是本席希望國防部是中華民國的國防部國防部是捍衛台灣2350萬人的國防部絕對不是任何一個政黨或是任何一個政府的國防部也因此不要假借轉型正義之名行政治意識灌輸之時我想這一點是本席給國防部所有的將官弟兄們由衷的忠告 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
16033.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
16052.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
16054.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
16056.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
主席有請部長請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
16085.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
16111.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
國防部的專案報告題目是潛艦國造目前進度的報告但是現在我們最重要的背後推手潛艦國造專案的召集人國安會諮詢委員黃素光昨天卻突然對外證實提出辭呈請問部長我們的黃素光他有跟您知會嗎?你是何時得知這個消息的? |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
16112.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
16113.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
那我想請教齁,那總統沒有未留他嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
16135.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
16145.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我想問一個問題您是國防部長 對不對國防事務基本上都是你的業務 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
16147.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
16169.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那我想請教你你覺得黃素光作為潛艦國造專案的召集人他稱職嗎我跟委員報多講兩句我跟他有幾度的共識的一個機會我的感覺就是他做事情認真負責像這種人員他到任何地方他都會稱職而且認真負責你說認真負責會讓他稱職但越稱職他會更加的認真負責所以我對他看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
16174.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
16191.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
認真負責稱職的人最後身心俱疲要離開總統也沒有慰留他至少沒有看到新聞訊息那請問到底是為什麼是因為他稱職還是他不稱職呢我要特別講就是說這潛艦國造不是兒戲啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
16192.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
16212.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
今天專案召集人就這樣子不見了那我就想請教一個那剛剛這個我們部長也說非常尊重非常尊敬他嘛就他專業嘛你會不會可以去跟我們不管是現在的總統還是未來的總統說一下問一下那還要不要借重黃樹光的專產未來潛艦國造還是就讓他這個卸甲歸田 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
16218.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
16222.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
你作為一個國防部長你覺得你肯定他的專業為了潛艦國造的所謂的計畫的延續性那你要不要能夠跟我們現在的這個總統還有未來的總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
16239.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
16259.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我跟委員報告,我大概不會這樣建議,因為他等於諮詢委員,跟我不是一個系列,我沒有這個權責去做這個建議另外我跟他接觸,我也鼓舞我們專業人員要跟他保持接觸,因為他必須要付出很大的心力,也很專業我想帶領這個專業團隊,專業團隊一路走來一定有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
16264.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
16265.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
我的結論很簡單,潛艦國造這麼重要的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
16291.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
16315.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
我覺得感覺在連專案召集人都可以這麼草率的然後發個聲明然後身心俱疲就離開了你叫國人怎麼樣嚴肅看待這麼重要的一個國防的一個案子呢所以我真的也是呼籲我們的民進黨政府不要連對最基本人士都輕忽那我想請教下一個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
16316.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
16334.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
那麼可以從媒體資訊看到國造潛艦專業小組要解編啦那總統府跟國安會要設立先進國防事務辦公室然後推動潛艦後續的打造也要推動新一代的武器建構那 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
16336.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
16357.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
先進國防事務辦公室對於潛艦國造的一個國造潛艦工作有一說就是潛艦主導權要回歸國防部及海軍司令部那後續工作會由誰來完成我跟委員報告我這個先進國防事務辦公室早上媒體有問我我還真的沒聽到過 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
16358.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
16387.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
我到目前我都還沒有聽到過所以我也不知道什麼叫先進國防事務辦公室但我敢說講說將來不管這個工作有誰接手不接手的問題專案小組是存在的他們有很多不管節點的管控或者工作推動他們會持續做的所以哪一代會主導那就是國防部嘛那國防部要負全責嘛國防部把這個責任交給海軍因為海軍的專業嘛而且將來他們的戰力要用的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
16392.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
16413.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我也是覺得 認同剛剛部長講的我覺得基本上 潛艦國造不是在玩文字遊戲你講一個好像很炫很酷的名字叫先進國防事務辦公室根本本質潛艦國造專案小組如果是運作上他就有他過去運作的機制的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
16414.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
16433.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
怎麼換個總統你就要把這機制連召集人都不見了都不見了然後這個機制你也要重新去動所以我剛剛講第二遍講說潛艦國造不是兒戲這才是我今天要跟我們的政府特別呼籲的第三個我就要問一下我們的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
16435.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
16458.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
因為蔡總統在進行國政交接他有去帶賴清德總統當選看潛艦國造海昆號的進度那這之前新聞也顯出賴清德聽完簡報當場表示後續7艘潛艦不必分批建造要一次完成我想請教一下部長實務上做得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
16460.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
16475.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
一次完成所以一次就是一樣要一艘或兩艘一起來嘛不是講一家伙七艘通通進度一模一樣這是一個解讀的問題我們沒有講說能不能完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
16476.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
16479.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
其實剛剛部長回答裡面就不是一次完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
16494.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
16517.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
我就覺得作為一個未來的總統講話其實說真的講話語意要清楚不要引起誤解你講一次造7艘先不講這天價的預算更重要的是請問生產線、廠辦還有所有的人力、專業的支撐都是問題吧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
16519.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
16526.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
我們有這麼大的量能一次造七艘嗎?像你剛剛講其實所謂一次造七艘還是得分批造啦是不是這個意思? |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
16527.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
16529.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
所以我跟部長說就是說你一次開7條生產線人員積聚物料 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
16552.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
16572.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
我就問部長一個問題,他說一次造七艘,有跟你商量過嗎?沒有嗎?我跟部長說,我當過總統府副秘書長。兩岸國防外交也是我們當時在總統府的核心幕僚的工作之一。 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
16573.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
16592.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
這麼重大的事情真的不能夠所謂的當兒戲一樣親口就隨便說出來如果說在以前總統要談這麼重大的潛艦國造問題的話他一定會找部長的嘛不是嗎他一定會找今天專業的國防的相關專業的單位來去商量過之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
16593.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
16616.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
然後才會去說出今天到底我們《潛艦國造》未來的一個方向不是今天龍心大悅一句盛財戴清德盛財然後我們就整個《潛艦國造》的一個原來走的既定進程就要被帶著走這不是一個專業的事情最後我跟各位說我覺得民進黨政府在《潛艦國造》的事情最近的發展就三個兒戲黃樹光說走就走就是一個兒戲 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
16618.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
16646.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
然後專案辦公室又搞出一個什麼先進國防辦公室第二個噁心第三個噁心就是你既有進程能夠把它完成我們就按部就班走這是一個穩健的國防政策阿賴清德就很噁心的講聖才處還說一次要蓋7艘阿那不就造成今天軍方的困擾造成我們國防單位的困擾也造成我們人民的疑慮呢所以拜託身為總統未來的總統真的發言要謹慎以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
16648.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
16648.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
王宏威委員吳思瑤委員鄭振前鍾佳斌 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
16669.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
16694.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
中交兵委員不在請游浩 游浩 游浩委員不在請徐欣盈 徐欣盈 徐欣盈委員不在請邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在請林益君 林益君 林益君委員不在我們今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由林益君委員 王宏威委員 邱志偉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
16695.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
16700.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
提出書面質詢．請列入紀錄並刊登公報．請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆．本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分．或要求補充資料則亦請相關單位．以書面與兩週內提供委員令指定期限者．從其鎖定另外本席也請海軍提供相關的資料第一就是我們現在目前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
16725.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
16730.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
海昆號還有沒有裝備未獲得．比如超雷．比如潛望鏡之類的．還有沒有．請海軍提供相關的資料．給本席另外就是剛剛有提到就是請坐剛剛有提到的還有就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
16749.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
16754.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
偵查不公開的部分現在在作業辦法第5條已經有新修正的規定我們請相關的單位先去看一下偵查不公開跟他不能濫用他的相關的約束的對象是有特定的比如說檢察官律師相關的對象請看清楚所以如果我們委員會或者任何委員需要提供資料的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
16774.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
16791.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
不要以偵察不公開這樣的理由來拒絕就這個部分請相關單位提供以上如果有涉及機密的部分請確實依相關保密規定辦理本日會議到此結束上會謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
16805.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
16807.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
主席 |