| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1d76b477f1ee77853c691fc1ddc136966049c5ec402f88f0ffb433ea9b5ad6db25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:00:26 - 10:23:07 |
| 影片長度 |
1361 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、考試院、行政院人事行政總處針對「所屬機關有關霸凌事件之調查檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【業務報告及專題報告綜合詢答】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝,謝謝召委,有請部長。部長我先請教一下,那個霸凌案的報告都有經過你的審視之後才對外說明嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.338 |
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有根本調查小組完成了以後,有送給我看,然後再公告。是嘛,所以就是有經過你的審視之後才對外說明嘛,對外報告嘛,對不對?是。好,OK。那我等一下再回過頭來請教你。是。我在5月的,欸對不起,在這個12月初的時候有諮詢過部長齁,就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
52.455 |
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我還是一直特別針對員工協助方案這個EAP的整個衛福部的整個要再重新加強的部分嘛那部長也有承諾過我 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
62.642 |
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而且也特別特別強調說一定會加強但我不曉得怎麼加強因為我們現在衛務部傳出一件又一件的這個霸凌事件那衛務部也本身又也喊出說要這個啟動嚴固演員工協助方案的EAP的實施甚至於這場安心計畫心理急救機制然後協助這個受事件影響的同仁來紓解這樣的一個壓力這都是衛務部講的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
90.513 |
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98.985 |
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那部長可以簡單答問我,現在所提供的員工協助方案是怎麼樣?我想員工協助方案推動計畫應該有一百... |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
102.422 |
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129.533 |
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大概有10年,這些年來都應該有10年以上的一個在推動的計畫而且是滾動式的一個修正當然上次委員有執行到我們的計畫編列的預算是比較少這個可能因為是前面多年來一直滾動的我也尊重原來過去多年來編的一個預算但是如果有必要當然是一定要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
130.794 |
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141.614 |
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要去提高啦齁那這一次因為我們有陣營可能在調查的這段期間可能會有一些大家心 同等們心裡需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
143.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
144.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
你等一下喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
172.462 |
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我講一下齁,給部長做參考。這個員工協助方案,勞動部一年給員工有五次啦。貿易部一年給員工有幾次?簡單就好。三次嘛。你們是維持三次嘛齁。至少三次。至少三次啦齁。那你們最多幾次?我們來這邊答覆。 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
195.784 |
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220.54 |
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跟這個委員報告就是他有去他本身自己去尋求諮商的時候至少三次那諮商的團體他會給我們報告如果認為還需要深入的話我們就會根據評估報告再予以加強謝謝好那難關不也是五次衛務部只有三次你們覺得這樣是夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
226.929 |
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256.284 |
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不好意思,我們是講至少三次,然後會根據評估報告繼續再予以加強。我現在齁,我給部長,你先不要回去吧,你要趕快過去,你的時間,對部長也沒準備,好啦。不好意思啦齁,因為我問你,你念名就請我一張一張啦,對,這樣比較辛苦你趕快過去齁。我寬配你們會務部的網站,目前只有國家中醫藥研究所明確在網站上有說明,你自己看。 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
257.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
284.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
就你想的嘛齁所謂的員工協助方案一年三次嘛其他的其他的我有找到有相關資訊是在106年叫做什麼員工協助方案數位教材微電影其他都沒有你們有沒有公告啊到現在沒有公告啊我們諸選了之後還沒有公告啊你們說要加強要提高整個啟動員工協助方案的相關的這樣計畫這個網站也沒有看到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
288.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
315.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以就是衛務部的啟動方式不好意思委員齁其實我們每一次每年度的滾動計畫我們都會用公函通知各個單位那這個網站如果沒有更新這是我們需要進行檢討的地方我們回去會予以感謝人事數的可能相關的數位的預算應該就不用多給了吧齁因為從106到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
319.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
347.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
一百零六年一月二十六到現在嘛然後部長已經有明示說要提高整個這個EAP的相關的一些企劃應該在這個網站裡必須要去公告才對嘛我們馬上來馬上這個齁 老東部已經弄得亂七八糟但是在心理上這一塊衛福部是專業的這是你的專業嘛齁那你們應該主管的相關資源應該都很到位怎麼結果弄起來比一個中醫藥研究所還 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
348.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
366.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
好像只有一個宗教研究所比較認真其他的好像都沒有這說不過去啦齁那上禮拜勞動部門部長對本委員會做出這樣承諾給部長做參考雖然114年度預算已經編列了因為他是兩個禮拜的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
368.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
369.976 |
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部長你是什麼時候就任呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
369.976 |
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380.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
大家很清楚嘛。114年的預算就是你的預算了啦。就是你的政策要去執行了嘛。那黃部長還講說,雖然114年的預算已經變略了,但他會去找錢。把勞運部整體的員工協助方案從180萬增加到235.9萬,然後同時115年度他會繼續增加預算。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
390.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
411.19 |
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相對目前勞動部一年雖然五次的諮商但接下來只要經過評估需要也會繼續增加這個次數那我再跟你分享我在兩年前在追司法院的時候他是在2022年被我檢討過一次的時候他原本是一年八次他現在已經提高到12次我們還要再三次還要四千塊才要再增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
417.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
424.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
衛福部咧?咱是衛福部咧?好,我強調一百,咱叫做衛福部咧? |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
426.41 |
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448.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我想我們一定來檢討、精進,如果有需要我們在預算上面,我們會由各個管道來爭取足夠的預算來做這件很重要的事情。還有一個很重要的事情,勞動部已經承諾要將承攬人力納入員工協助方案的服務對象,你們有嗎?你們的經濟有把這個納入嗎?準備納入嗎?還是到現在沒有要納入? |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
451.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
467.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們現在的員工協助方案就是我們在部裡面服務的各類人員、承攬人員是有包括?是有包括。好,那就很好。那就很好。那我就請教一下,衛務部首屬的單位包含像健保署人均57塊的員工協助方案要怎麼解決?怎麼包含? |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
474.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
494.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
五十七塊還不包含成人人員不是,我們是每個機關都有個別的員工先我當然知道,我怎麼會不知道我上次才把你們各個機關的員工學術方案的相關預算都羅列出來了啊那你說我有包含啊那我就請教你,我現在請教健保署這個機關它現在是人均五十七塊啊你說有包含啊,怎麼包含啊請說這個你要管到才對嘛你要掌握嘛,對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
505.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
532.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
因為是這樣子,每個機關的預算是...是...我自己去問每個機關那我們會折成我們的所屬機關要加強這部分的預...折了嗎?對,沒錯你折了嗎?蛤?折成嘛,對不對?折了嗎?折成出去了嗎?公文出去了嗎?什麼時候發了啊?然後要求他們成人人員一定要納入在這裡面,真的你所講的啊?有了嗎?公文出去了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
534.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
557.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們回去馬上檢討,如果沒有,還沒有完成的話,馬上來完成。所以部長你在這裡聲錄的跟A咖做的應該是,應該是很大的落差嘛。我現在問你聽你就知道,我現在其實是要問你聽的嘛。前面說的各種事項啊,還不包括承攬人員喔。那剛剛他答覆我是會把承攬人員納入嘛。那你說有折承嘛。你公文下去了沒有?沒有?如果有沒有下去,蛤? |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
562.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
565.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
目前衛福到底有多少承攬人員?請他回答好不好?所屬機關? |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
585.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
608.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你們的所屬機關你掌握的你答覆委員會答覆清楚一點好不好你們要納入嘛那你要掌握嘛不好意思喔那個所屬的這個機關都是他們的勞務那個可能我會後再把相關資料你回答我這樣現在回答我這樣你們要先部長就不易啊你要納入你又不曉得所屬機關多少人你又要責省所屬機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
615.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
622.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
你現在公園還不發出去然後你們說要提精進計畫你們的預算有沒有被審查勒你們的霸凌事件是最多的勒你們還用這種心態在面對社會大眾我具體要求一周內麻煩部長把相關EAP的精進計畫提到委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
644.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
652.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那委員會來審視,可以吧?可以。好,謝謝。沒問題。我剛剛講霸凌案,你請回吧。我在11月21執行過,部長與中心黨提出要於前一天,20號,和部長在委員會的狀況為警。那請部長在霸凌案要調查清楚。 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
671.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
700.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那上週衛福部把這個調查報告都已經調出來的齁我想這個我不希望用再次震驚這四個字啦齁但是三案成立然後其他不成立還有另三案然後不成立你又記過長照司長記過一次社保司長申借兩次社工司的司長申借一次這個叫什麼意思捨地無影三百兩 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
704.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
720.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以我才請教說部長整個調查報告之後你有看過嗎?你有經過審視的時候才對外做宣布嗎?他的霸凌既然不成立為什麼還要記過?李士林那天開記者會的時候你自己講到都結巴喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
726.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
740.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你回答我你就小心一點報告委員我們這個裡面絕對都是要尊重我們這個裡面有那個委員外部委員他們的這個專業的那個成立所以整個這個過程全部都是由委員他們根據整個專業的部分來進行這個專業的那個調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
743.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
766.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
至於剛剛委員你剛剛有提到就是說為什麼他們那個不成立為什麼還要記過其實最主要事實上他們的行政有關於整個行政管理的那個部分行政管理要記過嘛對不對對沒錯所以說確實是有那個施掌處你在記者會你講的嘛我對照你講的話好不好是你聽聽看長照師朱司長在衛福部健康招時間要求人員要做特定運動衛福部認為並不合適 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
768.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
794.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
人員想如何運用健康操時間做何種運動應有自我選擇的權利要求深蹲及管理不當行流程討論後與行政懲處即一小過沒有錯吧?沒錯市長要求人員在健康操做特定運動這不構成霸凌卻涉及管理不當小過一支對吧?沒錯你要確定喔?沒錯這樣小過你會記不完喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
798.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
807.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
午休時間,職員如果持續開會,賠命開會,算不算管理不當?健康操時間,如果還繼續連在座位上趕報告,算不算管理不當?要不要記小過?你想管理不當啊?你用管理不當來形容啊?那我就請教你啊,我現在就挑戰你啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
823.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
850.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
報告委員齁,其實...不是只有社保司長嘛,社工司司長也是這樣嘛,對不對?社工司司長他是因為就是說,他們司裡面有一個...我現在跟你講到就是,他的霸凌案不成立對,他有管理不當所以這個三個司長有被記過一次申請兩次,申請一次嘛,對不對?叫管理不當嘛所以你的管理不當的認定、界定是怎麼樣?你的範疇到什麼程度? |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
850.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
878.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我剛剛比喻的狀況是不是屬於管理不當要不要記過?所屬機關的所長都要小心了你們會經常管理不當喔其實像對於什麼叫霸凌其實老實說人事總處他們有一個那你已經界定他們沒有霸凌了你已經界定他們沒有霸凌了你現在是界定在他的管理不當裡面對他們提出記過跟申誡嘛我現在在跟你討論管理不當的認知跟範圍請你要說明清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
880.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
886.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這邊還有CDC還有FDA還有國建署還有健保署所以署長你們的管理要當喔你不當就要比照這樣辦理計過一次申請幾次喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
898.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
926.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
報告委員,我們兩個重點。第一個,其實對於什麼叫霸凌,其實真的是有一個定義。這個部分我們完全都是尊重專家。因為老實說,我們自己主席是我們也不宜太過的一個干涉。這是第一個重點。第二個重點現在目前就是您剛剛所說的,其實三個樣態裡面,三個市長裡面其實有管理不當,可是另外有一些是督導不周的一個情況。 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
928.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
931.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
三個樣態我講一段勞動部重啓調查中的職場霸凌事判斷重點也有三個樣態也不想跟你做參考第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
939.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
959.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
行為人具有職場上優越、地位或關係?沒錯。第二,行為欲略業務上必要且相當之範圍?是的。第三,員工有身體或精神上的痛苦或工作環境有惡化?沒錯。就所謂造成敵意環境。好。那你跟他現在記過這幾個,統統沒有欲略這三個重點?是的。好。你打呼我的啦,沒關係。 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
966.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
988.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
記者會上理事理事強調嘛齁這是一個同仁在健康招時間很和樂的一個活動施掌沒有強迫任何人但轉頭你跟他記了一個小過我覺得你們把問題複雜的把它搞得很複雜你不覺得齁你如果可以跟社會大眾說明清楚那你就去說明清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
989.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
996.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我還是希望部長你深思啊這事情你們評估清楚真的要評估清楚這事還有什麼後續你們思考清楚那都已經做給你們看了嘛就這個範圍嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1007.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1028.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
報告委員我還是必須要說明一下我給你說明啊我都有時間給你說明對於所謂的但是你說明要讓人家聽得進去啊對於霸凌他大概有人事總處他有三個重要定義第一個就是必須是在職場環境裡面上對下運用權勢關係以延遲或者非延遲這是第一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1029.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1053.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
．二、必須造成客觀上的工作上的敵意環境．第三、後果對於當事人．有產生他的整個心理貶抑．人格等等這些重要事實上是什麼叫持續性這是第一個判斷標準另外第二個是有沒有造成所謂的貶抑其實老實說你常常事實上這個我講下去我是覺得這也是為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1056.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1056.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
韓國瑜 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1077.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1077.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1093.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1112.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
按照這個定義講到這裡,對我們民眾,我們真的是要有一個交代,要有後續,但是我們這個部分,我們因為整個程序,我們沒辦法受限於……市長,市長,我之前給你更多時間去講了,但是招委一直給我按鈴。 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1114.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1135.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我必須要講,你這邊只有多一個持續貶抑啦。對啦。坦白講啦。那員工協助方案做好,就比較不會有持續的發生。這是你啊。這是你,正本期我知道。所以我一直在講這個邏輯問題嘛。第二件事情,我對這些被記過的首長我沒有任何意見。但是你們這樣的處理,沒有霸凌、記過,因為管理不當。我覺得這樣的,這會給人家感覺,你們到底在 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1144.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1159.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
在做什麼?這個我還請部長跟次長還有各位衛福部的官員要去對主管級的官員要去特別去審視一下何謂管理不當何謂管理不當而後的管理不當就比較辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1161.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1165.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
最後請教國監署長,你要看蔣議員時間要不要給你,他剛才是超過10倍分,沒關係我超過10萬鐘還有倍分鐘。蘇理你對這次霸凌案有什麼看法? |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1186.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1208.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我想保護員公司絕對是我們最高的原則那如何營造讓整個同仁能夠在安全在友善在沒有壓力的情況下就是沒有額外其他的壓力的情況下來安全工作我想針對這一次的霸凌案我覺得說我們都必須要慎切檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1210.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1234.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
國建署依據衛生組織的身體活動和久坐行為指南推動每天運動30分鐘,可分兩次15分鐘,所以推出15分鐘上班族健康操。也因此未必有健康操的時間。但是為什麼長照市的市長在健康操讓職員在那邊伏地挺身?老挖署、北溫署則叫職員在走廊跑步。 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1236.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1261.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
執掌上花個15分鐘運動你們要注意啦但是這個安全和福利意識應該是更需要嘛對不對然後現在這個健康的風氣還蠻盛行有的人下班之後他會到健身房去運動嘛你們要求他做這些事情他只要專注的把工作完成不是就一件事一件負責任的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1264.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1264.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
在長寿司的健康操時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1279.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1304.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
有一次有呈現說他做福利挺身,那個是在兩年前的時候因為有一個有一個新進來的時候,他有在練身體啦另外一個去替代他的年輕人,我跟他說,不然你們兩個變化嘛就這麼一次啦,不是說每一次都在做福利挺身那其他的話,我據我了解應該是市長帶著大家做一些可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1305.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1322.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
也許大家認得也不舒服或者是怎麼樣剛剛次長有提過的一些健康潮這個要檢討啦我們大家相信沒有問題嘛但是你看老化署、北溫署他就在走廊去跑步嘛所以國健署就把資金訂出來我是要求這樣嘛可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1324.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1347.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
謝謝,我們有那個健康操的這個示範的影帶請大家跟著一起做所以都沒有用啦你把指引訂出來啦,可以吧這個健康操的影帶很多年前就有我在十幾年前在台大醫院十點到三點都要停十幾分鐘然後有錄影帶幫醫生就這樣做那個是啊是啊,他可以給指引沒有啦,他可以給指引訂出來,可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1353.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1356.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我們來想辦法好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝謝謝謝謝劉建國委員 |
| IVOD_ID |
158147 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158147 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-14 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-16T10:00:26+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-16T10:23:07+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |