| IVOD_ID |
158109 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158109 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-12 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-12T15:11:51+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-12T15:32:34+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:43 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/50d02d9c955f8e2dda6a71e7285a8d2e0341d36cd1de3accdb9bda307ae229b3555062629d9f47525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王正旭 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:11:51 - 15:32:34 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名張文貞、姚立明、何賴傑、陳運財、王碧芳、廖福特、劉靜怡7位為司法院大法官，並以張文貞為院長、姚立明為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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謝謝韓院長有請劉教授、大法官、被提名人、劉靜怡教授劉教授好委員好我先讀有關於總統府大法官、被提名人介紹記者會當中對於劉教授的介紹跟說明 |
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你沒有提到劉被提名人長期在臺灣大學以及中央研究院．從事憲法、資訊、科技．以及人工智慧法學的研究與教學．中外文的論述豐富 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
55.305 |
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法學專業深受肯定．他也曾多次參與憲法．法庭重大的事件案件．例如擔任111年憲判制第13號．判決健保資料庫之鑑定人．而且劉教授在國際學術參與．也非常的亮眼．目前也擔任人工智慧國際組織．JPAI專家職務．從事跨領域研究與專業諮詢． |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
84.592 |
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109.232 |
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學術研究成果有助於人工智慧時代．個人資料及隱私權的保護．劉教授專精新興科技法學．具前瞻思維及國際視野．且多次參與現法的法庭活動．對我國因應數位發展．維護民主憲政保障基本人權．一定能夠提供重要的影響與貢獻．相信 |
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112.196 |
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劉教授,如果您經過大家的同意的話﹖一定會不負總統的期望。是,我是來自醫界﹖劉教授是法界的權威﹖我還是先從醫界關心的一些事情來跟您就教。 |
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有關於目前診所無障礙設施相關的問題因為這個問題的確在衛福部2021年的時候就有過一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
142.951 |
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168.98 |
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預告修正醫療機構設置標準第9條草案裡面．其實主要是針對於我們的這些保障身心障礙者．就醫過程．還有適應這個未來這個高齡者就醫的權益．來提高就醫的便利性跟可進性．希望能夠預計修正行政命令．來規定醫療診所都要有設置相關的友善設施． |
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170.42 |
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草案預計會新增包括的設施會有通路、診所、 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
181.107 |
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外號結帳的櫃台以及服務台都能夠讓我們這些身心障礙者或者是長者在就醫的過程裡面有他的方便性同時也不至於影響到他就醫的權益在這個過程裡面我們這個身心障礙聯盟曾經在針對這個修正的過程當中 |
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201.883 |
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有發表一些聲明就是除了支持這個衛護部的相關的草案以外也希望能夠針對權益的維護部分希望能夠也讓這個診所在準備過程當中不至於有太大的問題所以提出的第一點就是要修正草案請要求新設的診所並不溯及既往第二點就是設置要求 |
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226.38 |
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247.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
以依照比例原則做彈性的調整．最後還提到．如果小規模診所．可以偵測友善廁所來改造的話．比如說偵測扶手．相信對於這些來就醫的長者．或者是身心障礙者．會有很多的方便．不過當然這個議界也提出所擔心的事情． |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
247.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
261.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
包括說在2024年6月的部分也提出希望能夠持續的維持這個關懷跟信任的醫病關係來共同打造這個可長可久的友善無障礙的就醫環境裡面又擔心如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
263.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
285.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主張這個強制規定的話．在住外南行的部分．希望能夠維持現行鼓勵．而非強制的政策方向．因為如果真的是住外南行．來影響這個基層診所的生存．尤其經過這個全面規劃．沒有考量到城鄉差距的情形之下．甚至也有可能這些城駐的診所． |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
287.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
313.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
如果真的都要做這樣的緩修．無法得到同意的時候．就會造成一些在服務過程裡面．反而會去影響到這些身陷障礙．或長者這個就醫．或者是權益的保障．那這兩個部分．包括這個身陷障礙者．或這個年長者．可能在就醫過程裡面．希望能夠維持好的．完整的這個權益的保障． |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
314.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
315.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
劉教授您的看法如何? |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
326.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
347.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
謝謝委員的提問我想這個問題當然就是一個如何衡平不同的方面的權益的問題身心障礙者保護權益的法律基本上是因為我們CRPD的這些核心原則跟價值而來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
348.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
366.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
在CRPD的這個規定裡面基本上他會要求就是說必須要在這個所謂的公共場所的相關的空間設施以及無障礙設施上面當然包括硬體設施的部分必須要有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
367.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
369.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
法規實踐或硬體建設與改善無法一觸可及,無論國家或民間經營業者可能都會有困難。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
392.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
413.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以在這個時候我認為國家必須要在確保符合CRPD跟生權法的情況底下確保不同的產業用各項的方式在各項社會設施建築業的設計建築的設計跟公共服務還有各項民生服務軟硬體建設交通資訊等等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
414.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
438.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
想盡辦法盡量能夠協助民間單位跟產業來足以落實這樣子的這個義務我認為在這個事情上面其實政府的角色是非常關鍵的那避免因為落實相關的法規的時候呢人民、產業、社會團體會不知所措甚至呢在抗拒的情況底下呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
438.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
438.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
460.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
487.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
坦白講這樣的要求其實呢可能比餐廳的要求還要低我想委員也知道那我覺得這個部分就是國家應該要想辦法去想辦法去逐步改善的想要去應該要去輔導的事情尤其我們這個國家呢已經快要進入超高齡社會了對於這些無障礙設施的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
488.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
488.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
王正旭 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
512.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
512.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
張文貞議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
528.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
528.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
549.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
575.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這裡當然會有一個問題就是呢僱主在處理這個合理調整的義務的達成的過程當中會不會呢有受到這個undue burden這樣子的過度的負擔的這個狀況那我覺得就必須要呢是資源以及個案來看看怎麼樣去處理這個問題我希望這樣子可能有答覆到委員的提問 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
576.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
605.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好,非常感謝劉教授因為如果將來爭議走到需要釋憲的階段的話可能就是如劉教授所提到的我們期待大家都能夠用很前瞻的思維來討論這個問題好,謝謝那第二個部分就是要請教有關於這個醫藥分業跟釋制第778號解釋的這個內容的部分這個爭議其實主要就是醫藥分業的情形之下如何能夠保障我們就醫 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
610.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
633.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
主要是在藥施法第102條限制了醫師藥品的調劑權這部分其實是沒有違憲的可是對於第二條藥施法施行細則50條對醫療急迫情形的解釋似乎是違憲的這個相關的爭議那基本上在這個第三項理由書裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
634.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
646.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
在並此指明的部分又特別說明當時的大法官會議針對醫藥分業認為這是政策上的立法選擇因此在原則上應以尊重那對這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
648.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
664.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
劉教授,您是不是也有同樣的觀點?好,我想跟委員報告一下當然我並不是醫藥的專家我就儘量嘗試回答事實上在有關於醫藥的調劑權等等這些事情上面我們曾經有兩個解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
666.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
678.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
第1個解釋是應該是4-711號的有關於限制藥師職業處所的那個部分那那個是一個違憲宣告那剛剛委員提到的是4-778號的這個爭議那這個爭議當然就是藥事法102條的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
684.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
706.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這號解釋呢他是認為102條第二項是不違憲的因為沒有侵害到醫師的藥品調劑權因為在例外的情況底下還是讓醫師可以有藥品調劑權我的理解是這個樣子的那但是施行細則跟含釋的部分呢對於醫療急迫情形的解釋因為在醫療法裡面並沒有授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
707.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
733.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以有增加法律所無的限制的那個部分的違憲那這個就是目前的解釋方式那我的理解是說當時醫藥分業的這個做法是搭著我們全民健保制度而建構起來的醫藥分業它其實的確是有助於病人權利的保障這個是當時政策上面的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
734.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
743.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
因為藥師有藥師的專業那透過藥師的條紀呢可能呢可以再次把關這個醫師他處方上面的用藥合理性等等這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
746.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
764.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
4至778號他非常的清楚說這是一個政策問題在政策問題上面其實就是一個立法選擇所以事先機關原則上應該尊重這就是我剛剛前面在回答問題的時候一直說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
765.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
792.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
如果是政治部門、行政部門、立法部門在做政策形成的時候衡量各式各樣的資源的考量國家重大政策應該怎麼樣走比較好能夠在立法院達成共識的時候基本上事先者應該要尊重這樣子的共識換句話說採取醫藥分業與否基本上這是一個立法政策的形成 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
795.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
805.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
維持這樣的制度 坦白說 恐怕並不當然會構成危險當然這還是必須要看 個案的爭議的狀況來決定可是我要講的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
809.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
822.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
即使大法官在判定這個案子合憲之後．他在理由書裡面也同時指出來說．在上開制度未真完備之前．有關機關亦應配合醫藥分業實際發展程度．橫著細真規定． |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
826.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
855.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
也就是醫師得例外調劑藥品的範圍是不是足夠讓病人的醫療權益受到維護的這個最高利益能夠獲得確保應該要事實檢討並為合理的調整那基本上雖然這個部分的理由沒有具強制力但是我相信這個是將來在政策形成的過程當中大家很有必要去做的一個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
857.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
865.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
謝謝所以其實不管完全分業、部分分業甚至是不分業只要不違憲其實就是政策的選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
866.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
893.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
好 謝謝再過來就是要請教跟這個人工智慧科技發展應用跟人權保障的問題我們知道國科會在今年7月份已經針對人工智慧基本法有了一個預告草案那請問劉教授你對這個草案的內容相關的保障是不是已經有充足這部分可不可以也請你針對這邊發表一下你對這個草案的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
896.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
920.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
謝謝委員的提問我想這個法律名字叫做《人工智慧基本法》這個基本法的內容如果委員詳細去看的話它其實是非常簡要的它原則上是在針對我們這個國家要發展人工智慧的時候政府應該負擔什麼責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
924.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
946.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
對於司部門有什麼樣的要求把一些基本的原則清楚的講出來比如說在資料治理這個部分應該怎麼做在人民的隱私權利的確保這個部分應該怎麼樣以及比如說OECD有一個AI Principles |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
946.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
946.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
張文貞議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
963.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
989.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
負責任的AI的社會應該要追求一個以人為中心以人為本的AI使用的社會等等這些問題都去做了一個比較類似於宣示性的以及架構性的規定除此之外這個法律裡面應該也有針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
991.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1014.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個國家怎麼樣透過好的誘因結構去想辦法引導AI科技的創新的研發跟應用然後同時也能夠確保人民的權益的這個部分做了一些宣示那我想這個法律裡面到底應該有哪些規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1016.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1032.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我覺得這是見仁見智的問題不過我覺得最重要的事情是這個其實只是人工智慧相關法制的立法的第一步而已我想委員也清楚的是今年其實歐盟已經有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1033.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1059.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
非常嚴格、嚴謹、制度井然的一個人工智慧法已經正式通過實行了或許我們沒有辦法一步到位做到像那個樣子但是這個人工智慧基本法所宣示的一些基本原則其實跟歐盟的立法我會說它並沒有相差太遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1060.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1072.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
比如說我們的人工智慧基本法裡面也要求說應該要對人工智慧可能帶來的風險做一定程度的管制當然他可能在任何領域都可能有風險的 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1074.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1096.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
甚至我覺得這個人工智慧基本法呢這個將來如果在貴院通過生效之後其實貴院應該做的一個更重要的事情是根據這個人工智慧基本法裡面的那些要求不管是對資料相關的權益的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1098.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1114.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
作權、智慧產產權相關的要求對於創新的鼓勵或者是甚至委員可能最清楚的就是AI運用在醫療產業裡面可能會產生哪些風險可能會對人跟機器之間的責任區分醫療正義的問題都會產生問題在這種情況底下就必須要去針對這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1126.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1151.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
每一個領域可能涉及的作用法去做一一的檢視跟調整讓這些法律能夠一方面促成人工智慧的正向的發展他方面也可以去處理一些風險跟人權保障的問題的確本來想要再利用時間跟您就教健保資料利用與個資保護權衡的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1154.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1173.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這部分劉教授也發表過非常多的意見不過因為時間的關係另外再找時間跟您就教那其實對一個大法官的職責在失衡的天平兩端我們期待的就是大法官能夠從這邊得到一個最佳的平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1174.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1189.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
全國的民眾知道大法官在執行這個選擇過程裡面．其實是值得保障人民權益的過程當中．得到最高的期待．那也麻煩劉教授您這方面的承諾是怎麼樣． |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1191.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1218.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我會想這個部分我是可以承諾的沒有問題的我想委員也非常的清楚其實我的專業過程裡面其實絕大部分的研究重點是關於人權的保障那我也做過很多人權實務的工作我有我自己的價值跟信念但是呢就像我在我的自傳跟我的資料裡面問卷回覆意見裡面有講過我個人的價值跟信念基本上在憲法法庭是必須要透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1220.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1221.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
主席 |