| IVOD_ID |
158107 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158107 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-12 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-12T14:30:32+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-12T14:50:54+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:22 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/50d02d9c955f8e2dcdf3b00c116b10d90341d36cd1de3acc1f2ca3bb0cf2646d048316b8811dac4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳秉叡 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:30:32 - 14:50:54 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名張文貞、姚立明、何賴傑、陳運財、王碧芳、廖福特、劉靜怡7位為司法院大法官，並以張文貞為院長、姚立明為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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主席院長麻煩請被提名人麻煩請被提名人你好有幾個機會跟你聊聊憲法上面的問題跟看法最近韓國就有發生了一個政治上面的戒嚴的事件這個我想你應該清楚 |
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以各國的憲法來講主要兩大類型一般是常見的內閣制國家跟還有總統制國家那當然也有一些是在介在兩個之間的那主要如果以總統制國家因為韓國是總統制國家他的這個發生了憲政上面的爭議那當然 |
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他們是發生這樣子如果以韓國而言我知道就是說如果總統提的法案然後這個或是他們國會提的法案然後通過在國會通過可是總統認為他有意見他可以退回然後在回到國會裡面三分之二以上多數堅持的時候他才能夠這個國會才能夠遂行他的意志那如果在內閣制國家 |
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發生憲政上的僵持這個僵局的時候政治上的僵局最常見到的方法就是用解散國會重新改選把這個將裁判者交回到全體選民的手中那以這兩個狀況來類比來看我們台灣中華民國是所謂的五權憲法我感受不到我們的憲政僵局 |
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響鐘響鐘響鐘 |
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我們在學界很多人會認為說他是一個比較偏向於總統優勢的雙手掌制 |
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176.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
但是因為實際執行政務跟協商的是行政院院長那修憲之後總統任命行政院院長也不必經過立法院的同意總統就可以自己決定要任免行政院院長那行政院院長本身也沒有法案或者是命令的附屬權但是他施政成績是必須要向總統負責的 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
179.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
199.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這樣子的角色看起來其實坦白講的確比較像是總統的幕僚長他比較沒有獨立行使權力的空間在現行的這個制度底下如果總統的政黨是國會少數的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
201.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
230.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
其實憲法也沒有要求要任命國會多數去做行政首長的這樣的義務當然有一些國家會說我們可以來做混合組閣或者是任命多數黨的內閣或者是堅持少數黨的內閣的不同選擇等等這些做法但是顯然我們的實際上面的這個做法其實都沒有發生過這樣的這個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
233.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
248.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所以如果發生憲政僵局的話坦白講我不是很確定委員所指稱的憲政僵局大概是包括哪些憲政僵局那我就就是先嘗試統合的說這樣子我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
252.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
276.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
如果有憲政僵局產生的時候其實因為這個僵局很可能是政治部門之間的爭執行政部門跟立法部門之間的爭執沒有 不一定現在將來有可能延伸到立法部門跟司法憲政機構、憲法法庭的爭執如果它是政治部門之間的爭執的話那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
278.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
300.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我會比較傾向於政治部門必須要想辦法協商解決如果不行的話那依照我們大法官的解釋意旨基本上呢可能就必須要由司法權去介入去處理呢到底是中間我們的所謂的權力分立制衡的原則有沒有違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
301.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
325.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
各個權力部門的核心領域有沒有被侵犯到這個是我目前的想法其實無論它是什麼字總統是那個字混合字什麼偏向總統偏向那個都不要緊重點是憲政將局要有解決的機制那如果沒有解決的機制可不可以視為說這個憲法制度上面的一個大的漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
326.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
354.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
因為無法解決將在那邊其實時間一直在過整個國家一直在空轉如果有憲政僵局的時候那我就再往下問現在也有提出所謂的憲法這個對於憲法法庭的這個訴訟的這個修正的法案那細節就不談 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
355.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
382.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
如果他堅持一定要怎麼樣多數的人原額才能夠開成這個憲法法庭那要多少比例以上才能夠做成決議假設原額不足的時候就事實上實質的原額不足的時候事實上就是架空了整個憲法法庭那憲法法庭該如何運作呢聽聽看你的講法 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
385.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
401.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
當然這個是目前大院審議當中的憲法訴訟法修論草案我只能夠基於一個學者的立場針對學理上面可能想像到的問題跟大院做回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
403.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
413.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
從比較法的觀點來看每一個國家到底憲法法庭怎麼樣才可以開會怎麼樣才可以做決議其實規定都不一樣規定都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
416.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
443.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們呢大法官是15個人美國的大法官是9個人但是呢我們基本上只有任期8年美國任期是終身制所以比較起來其實美國是比較不容易出現有多位大法官缺額的這樣的一個狀況那像我們目前的體制以及現在運作的現況看起來呢的確是有可能會有多位的這個大法官這個缺額的這樣的狀況出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
446.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
460.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那這樣子的情況出現的時候呢坦白講當然憲法訴訟法的修法是立法院的職權司法院司法權當然會尊重可是這裡會有一個問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
463.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
490.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
如果修法的結果在實際上導致憲法法庭真的沒有辦法運作的話那其實這裡會有一個很麻煩的問題就是委員所說到的憲政爭議權力分立制衡的這個部分的問題沒有辦法解決那我更關心的是對於人民基本權力的保障的這些案件沒有辦法處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
491.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
507.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
吳秉叡 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
507.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
528.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
即使要修法都必須要有清楚的配套措施寫進去OK重點就是不能夠讓司法權這樣子的一個國家的仲裁者處於無法運作的狀態或者是憲法保護者人民基本權利的保護者處於沒有辦法運作的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
530.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
553.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我認為這樣的事情就必須要立法院朝野政黨發揮高度的智慧基本上必須要將你想要立法可能產生的問題基本上做一個通盤的考量必須要做一個立法事實的檢視必須要想想看以後會發生什麼樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
554.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
577.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
在修法的過程當中當然現在也在審查大法官我們的憲法法院也說了基本上對於每一個憲法機關的人事權的審查跟同意其實是有憲法忠誠義務的我會覺得在這種情況底下就是必須要行政權跟立法權都好好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
579.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
585.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
理性的、謹慎的把適當的大法官的審查結果做出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
587.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
607.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你這是理想狀況我現在講的就是說如果不照你講的這個理想狀況去做事實上就產生了所謂的憲政僵局啊這就是我要跟你請教的這就是我要說的就是說如果因為我們本院就立法院就有人認為我比你大啊立法權比你們所有的權都大啊所以我如果不照你講的這個邏輯來你講這個是一個正常的邏輯嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
611.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
614.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
報告委員,在我的看法裡面,憲法機關之間沒有誰比誰大的問題,基本上是權力分立制衡的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
633.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
647.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那 again 就是如果呢 任何的憲法機關在行使權力的時候侵害到其他憲法機關的核心領域的時候 這個都必須是由司法權來解決的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
649.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
650.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
司法的自主性的這個部分必須要維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
676.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
699.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那當然就是說藉時如果有這樣的一個釋憲案出來的話基本上我不知道現在既有的大法官會怎麼樣去處理這件事情我不便預測以我現﹖你是被提名人現在假設你是大法官你認為應該如何處理這個僵局這是我今天對你提出的問題你就盡可能的回答我 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
699.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
727.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
可能必須要基於所謂的司法自主權的基本的原則去盡量想辦法讓憲法法庭可以開庭跟做成決議就是說可以不要遵守立法院立的法你規定我10個人才能開成庭我也可以不要遵守還是我就直接把你修這個法我主動宣告你違憲我想基本上宣告違憲這件事情是必須要有人申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
729.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
744.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那假設沒有人要申請那是不是就僵在那邊阿?我想應該不至於沒有人會申請因為呢在我們的市縣的程序裡面基本上可以申請的人非常多那所以我的回答大概就是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
745.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
771.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那我就繼續往下問其實這是對整個國家來講是不幸的事情如果發生這樣的僵局因為現在立法院有一些人的心態他很可怕就是因為我立了法律你要給我解釋違憲或是有被解釋違憲的嫌疑所以我就根本就不讓你解釋了讓你連開庭審理的機會都沒有你就沒有資格來判我違憲不過這是立法院的角度但是司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
773.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
794.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
其實是整個憲法的守護者整個制度的守護者立法委員、立法院有可能做出違憲的審議的法律這是立法院其他院也有可能會違憲行政院也有可能會違憲考試院也有可能會違憲監察院也有可能會違憲其實當這個違憲的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
799.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
820.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
本來決定是不是違憲決定的機關就是在憲法法庭嘛好我問你啊我就問你一個問題啊假設真的被架空了立法委員很高興以後我們如何審法案我高興怎麼定就怎麼定反正已經沒有到憲法法庭了也沒有辦法宣告我違憲跟你講這時候高興的行政機關可能也很高興 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
822.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
848.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
沒關係啊你都搞啊反正我都沒有人可以解釋我違憲啊我行政機關要怎麼解讀法律我就怎麼解讀法律啊我要高興要怎麼做就怎麼做啊於是中華民國的憲政秩序就崩潰了所以現在搞的人都以為自己很高明啊我站在我自己的立場反正我立法機關你怎麼樣你不能夠搞我不能夠宣告我違憲就夠了他都忘了別的機關別的憲政機關也有可能違憲欸他當別的憲政機關違憲的時候他要怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
851.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
878.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個我想就是我剛剛說的大家在想要修憲法訴訟法的時候其實要有更加周延的考慮就是說的確會違憲的機關非常的多尤其主導行政權的行政院他其實所行使的權利其實有很多很多的狀況底下是會侵害到人民的權利的 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
878.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
906.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
本來憲法裡面人民基本權利的保護他最主要要保護的對象就是要對抗行政權是沒有錯本來在原來的憲法的結構上就是這樣但是現在有人想要把這些大怪物放出來喔放出來因為要把憲法法庭廢掉喔憲法法庭如果實質真的被架空之後那當發生這些事情的時候我找不到一個機關在目前中華民國憲法找不到一個機關可以去宣告說你這個行為違憲喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
907.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
927.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
是,所以我想就是說這個在立法的時候是要非常非常的謹慎的事實上是不應該這樣子處理的那這個司法權如果遇到這麼極端的情況的話我想司法權必須要呢基於他的這個自主權的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
928.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
956.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
想辦法來解決這樣的問題不應該放任人民的基本權利跟國家的自由民主的憲政秩序變成這樣的結果當然我們還是希望我還是希望就是說在修法的時候能夠更加的謹慎如果真的有憲政爭議的時候就想辦法用釋憲的方式來解決我覺得這個對整個國家的長治久安 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
957.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
980.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
以及人民的權利的保障來講才是真正正確的選擇以我們學法律的人當然可以接受你這樣講法的機會比較大但是你想想看有的人不相信的原因在哪裡呢無論行政權或是立法權就台灣他都是人民賦予選舉產生今年1月13號其實有兩個選舉加在一起一個是總統行政權的選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
985.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1010.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
一個是立法院立法委員的選舉他把兩個選舉放在同一天所以他其實同時選舉了行政權跟國會立法院的權利但是現在選完的時候兩邊當選的黨不一樣利用自己的職權拼命擴張想要去變更這個選舉的結果人事選其實核心的議題就是兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1012.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1039.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
行政局的核心議題就是兩個一個就是人事一個就是預算就是人跟錢他利用法律修訂一直擴張然後你的人事要經過他的干涉你才能夠用甚至什麼樣的人不能用他都有意見第二個經費現在雖然憲法明明規定不得為增加預算是提案他利用法律的法律案來給你規定他的錢要怎麼用 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1041.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1054.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這個角度上面都是在對行政權的侵犯你覺得如果從概略總體上面來講這樣的講法你同不同意我想人事權跟預算權基本上都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1055.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1058.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
可以審議但是他審議如果是不合常理的你的人我不中意我就都不給你用 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1083.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1098.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以我覺得基本上國會政治部門行政跟立法之間基本上必須要想清楚就是說基本上我們應該都是用善意的方式來審查人事權為國家舉裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1100.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1120.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
有好的行政官員其實才能盡責的把國家該做的事情做好那同樣的道理立法權當然是有立法的權利那他在做一些立法的時候自然會需要有一些相應的資源的分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1120.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1121.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我講的預算的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1142.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1154.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
的那個侵犯不是這樣啦我舉個例子我多數黨嘛你執政的是少數黨嘛你的國家的總體預算我就全部幫你拿來我分配給地方分配給我比較多的地方啊那你中央政府就沒有錢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1156.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1181.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那你總統如果沒有錢你就做不出成績啊用政治的角度去做這樣子的政治的攻防沒有考慮到憲法的分際對這樣的問題要如何解決我想這個部分的問題呢基本上從憲法的憲政的角度來看呢基本上就是必須要看中央與地方分權的這個市權跟經費的資源的分配的問題他不跟你討論市權啊他現在就是光討論經費啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1183.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1209.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以我想這樣子的討論就是有失偏頗應該相應的這是因為有人認為他比你大所以他不在乎他的偏頗你們這些我們學者論道尊尊教誨侃侃而談沒有放在眼裡就是我只比你大我這個叫做流氓邏輯當我人少的時候我跟你講道理當我人多的時候我就跟你表決你在講什麼我們沒有需要跟你討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1210.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1222.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
吳秉叡 |