| IVOD_ID |
158091 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158091 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-11 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-11T15:12:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-11T15:32:44+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7bc6073edac3146d590a7d394ac6a7a47bc0e35bc25a01cc9de9f047aa0fec670fb57351b41a9d0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳宗憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:12:15 - 15:32:44 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名張文貞、姚立明、何賴傑、陳運財、王碧芳、廖福特、劉靜怡7位為司法院大法官，並以張文貞為院長、姚立明為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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陳老師你好委員好老師我是您以前的學生以前都是您在看我的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.68 |
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48.25 |
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今天有這個機會來審查您的資料是感覺非常的榮幸但之前也是在刑事局有好幾次的刑事局的一些會議其實我都有看到老師來與會發表一些意見但我一直以來我覺得是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
51.428 |
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大法官是否事任那我的想法一直是覺得說我們是實質的去審查實質去審查所以對於公共議題的意見怎麼樣我比較認為他不是一個審查的最主要比如說死刑存廢與否或者是說代孕母等等核能等等這個社會議題其實這個社會本來就存在肯定跟否定的想法那至於 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
79.721 |
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我也不會說是因為說比如說在死刑議題上面你跟我的邏輯不一樣那你就不事任我到底不是這樣子想法的一個人我覺得還是非常務實的去思考到底這一位大法官提名人是否事任大法官那我首先想要請教老師的一個問題就是我想這個我就比較開門見山的一個想法啦就是說我知道老師您的理念是支持廢除死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
110.549 |
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132.465 |
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當如果說在將來您任大法官之後因為你的理念是支持廢除死刑但是呢你在就憲法的精神上面去分析之後您認為死刑他並沒有任何抵觸憲法的精神的時候那請問一下你在做憲法判決你會如何去取捨 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
134.106 |
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147.878 |
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請老師說明是,謝謝我們的提問那首先我們先確認就是實行制度本身是不是合憲憲判9號已經很明確的講是我們立法機關立法行政的空間對因為之前已經好幾次說明實行沒有違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
152.642 |
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179.827 |
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那憲判也沒有說死刑違憲但是在將來勢必還會有人繼續提出這個議題來申請憲法判決那如果是在老師您擔任大法官的時候又有團體來申請這個釋憲的話那您是支持死刑應該廢除但是如果說您在審酌之後發現憲法的精神並沒有反對死刑那請問一下您會做出什麼樣的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
181.079 |
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208.281 |
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第一個基本上我如果將來有機會成為大法官除非我們有更強烈的理由比如說在個案上或聽取當事人意見多方意見收集之後有同於憲判9號的觀點跟理由否則基本上我會尊重憲判9號的觀點就實行它基本上是立法院政策覺醒的範圍不是憲法法庭去介入審查的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
209.468 |
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210.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
241.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
262.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
如果我們以殺人案件來說好了被害人他除了死者之外還有他的家人嘛他的家人依照我國刑事訴訟法規定他其實不是當事人那其實老師你以前有很多的文章那其實這段時間我看了你一些過往的文章齁其實你也是非常的主張應該要讓這些被害人有一些訴訟參與的權限是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
263.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
290.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我覺得說被告人權保障跟被害人權利維護不是相衝突我覺得說兩者應該是同樣受到重視跟監督我一直以來非常認同老師的這個論點但是在這次現判8的辯論庭上面我們看到的現場狀況是這樣就是37位死刑犯的辯護律師一大堆都在現場但是都沒有這些所謂的職者的家屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
292.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
317.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們也只有一位翁曉琳委員出來說明為什麼死刑有存在的必要法務部當然也有他的論述但是你等於是一個現場幾乎是碾壓式的而且是沒有讓被害者的家屬就是那些被害人發言的機會你認為這樣子的憲法法庭的審理有沒有需要改進 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
320.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
344.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我想憲法法庭的實際的運作那這一部分在憲法訴訟法跟它相關的細則應該有一定的規範那委員你現在有提的有關被害人或他的家屬的訴訟參與的部分我想在我們的刑事訴訟程序目前我覺得還是有規範不足跟運作不周的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
345.764 |
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358.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
對那如果憲法法庭有剛剛委員你所提的情形那我也建議在制度上應該再進一步強化被害人的法律輔助跟程序參與群我覺得很多時候我請教這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
360.16 |
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389.108 |
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被提名人我的想法都是這樣我希望在我們審查的這個過程中能夠讓被提名人能夠說出將來如果任職大法官之後他願意接受願意怎麼做我們也不希望說在這個時候我們沒有讓你表明清楚就日後好像又您又做另外一套做法所以我還是蠻希望就是說如果之後您有幸擔任大法官的職位那請要注意就是老師您一路以來一直堅持的要 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
389.628 |
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389.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
吳宗憲議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
413.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
413.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
吳宗憲議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
433.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
447.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為老師是學者出身那我在實務界工作了20年我的感覺是這樣當我在學校時期及我念的書以及聽老師的講法之後我對於死刑的感覺是這樣在 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
448.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
463.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
如果只是以理論當作我的經驗值的話死刑的存廢這是一個高談闊論而已比如說我要廢除死刑這是一個高談闊論但是當我的經驗值是建立在這個社會上面很多血淋淋的例子我看過非常多血淋淋的屍體 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
465.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
492.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
然後陪著他們家屬一路走過來之後我真的對死刑這個東西我覺得我沒有再懷疑過了那當然在理論上面比如說盧梭的社會契約理論或是以前那個黑格爾的那個強制後的強制其實在理論上面也有非常多支持死刑的理論存在當然我們再回過頭去看像以前那個歐陽修的那個雙方簽表大家很喜歡講的就是求其生而不可得則死者與我皆無恨 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
494.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
497.6 |
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我們實務走過來的我們其實看到了很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
498.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
524.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
的狀況很多的案例其實一個殺人犯不管他被判死刑還是判無期徒刑其實你回過頭來看死者的家屬就是死刑就是對他而言是死刑他的心已經死了對死者的家屬是一個無期徒刑為什麼他永遠走不出這個傷痛所以我最近跟一些那個被害殺人案件的被害者家屬跟他們相處 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
525.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
530.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
有的人跟我講過一句話我到現在還深深記得他說他媽媽10年前被殺 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
532.042 |
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558.033 |
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他本來覺得時間是最好的良藥可以治癒這個傷痛就10年後他發現一點效果都沒有他沒有比10年前少一分傷痛所以我再提到剛剛盧梭的理論或是黑格爾理論其實我覺得也許他還是有存在的必要這邊先跟老師報告一下說因為老師是學者我是實務出身其實兩個想法不見得是一樣啦所以很多時候我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
559.144 |
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584.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們社會或者是很多制度總是一直在朝向被告的角度去保護那老師跟很多學者不一樣是老師上課的時候常常講到的是一個平衡就是被害者的家屬保護被害人的保護以及被告的保護兩者是不衝突的所以我們也應該要落實對於被害人的保護所以這一塊我覺得我們的想法就是一樣但是在死刑這一塊來說其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
586.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
612.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我看到的想法是真的比較不一樣尤其是我看到這次憲判8號他裡面完全沒有一個字去討論到這個被害者或被害者家屬的部分他通篇討論的都是被告要如何保障那我也想請問一下老師請問您認同這樣子的憲法判決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
615.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
626.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
確實如果我們從科刑的角度來看我們憲法五七條的科刑的因素裡面包含他犯罪的結果、犯罪後的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
627.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
654.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那這裡面其實我就說應該列入被害人的感情在裡面對那這個部分其實它也可以作為一個最嚴重的犯罪的犯罪情節的評估要不要判處死刑的考慮的因素那如果從這個角度出發的話那我認為這個部分或許也可以列進去我們審酌判處可刑是不是要克制死刑的量刑因子的判斷的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
655.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
655.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
謝謝老師的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
682.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
702.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
老師這段說明其實我也很希望現判8任那15位大法官能夠稍微聽一下其實你的判決裡面忘記了被害人或被害人家屬這個判決其實說實在話我真的不覺得它是一個很完美的判決因為你應該要同時去思考在不同角度下面 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
703.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
703.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
吳宗憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
722.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
743.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
現判吧我覺得他在程序上面在正義上面還是有一些問題存在那另外我想請教老師一個問題就是因為我剛剛有提到嘛您其實也是一直倡議說被害人的訴訟參與權但是我看了您的資料裡面好像似乎老師沒有提到一個被害人的上訴權那我不知道老師您對 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
744.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
757.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
被害人如果我們讓他被害者家屬啦就死者家屬對於判刑的刑度不滿意或者是怎麼樣他有一個上訴的權利而不是只能透過檢察官上訴我不知道老師您支不支持這個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
759.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
785.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我在我之前發表的文章對於要不要直接賦予被害人本身也有上訴權我是持保留的意見主要理由有兩個一個是目前我們書裡說您擔任過檢察官對這個部分您的也很長經驗基本上如果告訴人對判決不如請求檢察官上訴我們書上檢察官都會從這個角度為被害人的角度來提及上訴應該是絕大部分的情況都是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
786.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
807.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以是不是直接在法律上面規定被害人有上訴權其實影響不大是其中之一第二個主要還是我覺得是被害人雖然他是最直接的利害關係人不過畢竟我們的第三條還是只有把檢察官跟被告列為是所謂的當事人另外我們不要忽略我們還有一個自訴制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
807.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
836.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
在制訴制度被害人他委任律師提起制訴之後他就是當事人那他有訴訟的範圍的決定權對判決部他也有上訴權所以在整體的綜合考量之下我對於在檢察官起訴的公訴程序檢察官是當事人已經代表國家也會尊重告訴人的被害人的意見來行使追訴權的前提之下要不要再直接給被害人在公訴程序有上訴權我才會持比較保留的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
838.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
866.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
實務上確實有檢察官不願意上訴的案子不是100%檢察官都會聽從被害人的意見我自己提出來的那個修法草案裡面我是希望說讓家屬有一個上訴的權限另外我來請教一下老師就是說在憲判八他要求法官以自決這個部分我想因為有非常多人問您這個問題我是想請教一下就我個人的潛見我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
867.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
871.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那我想請問一下在您很多文章裡面都有提到各權限之間的制衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
891.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
911.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那今天這個司法權也就是大法官的這個這個憲法判決他其實已經侵害到立法院的立法權啊他怎麼可以要求這個法官要一致決呢那我不知道老師您對這個想法是什麼我今天不是說這個東西對或錯或很多人都是問您這個影響有多大我今天單純是說他侵害到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
912.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
912.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
940.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
942.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我不討論最嚴重的犯罪這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
969.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
984.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我今天說的是以自決的這個概念因為我為什麼要問這個因為我希望想要就任大法官的人他必須了解大法官的權限在哪裡什麼能做什麼不能做這就是大法官人選我們要必須審查的部分那今天大法官是解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
986.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
998.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
他是一個解釋的的的權限他是去了解法律跟現行的我們的憲法之間有沒有衝突他其實沒有一個造法的權限吧老師您認為呢大法官有沒有一個創設法條的權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1002.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1027.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
應該講精準一點大法官他就是解釋憲法那基於維護權利分立跟基本人權的角度來做違憲審查對那至於說因為可能有人提到說司法積極主義的關係變成大法官在造法也有這樣的評價不過我覺得還是應該回到違憲審查的定位跟他的界線來做具體的思考跟判斷其實比較能夠大家可以有比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1028.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1044.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那這樣憲法8的一字訣就跟您剛剛講的不太一樣了因為如果你解釋憲法我舉雙手站著因為這個就是大法官的權限但大法官他沒有權利去守身道立法權或者是普通法院的法官獨立審判權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1045.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1062.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那今天他今天的作為包括一致決的這個要求其實他這個都侵害到立法權啊如果今天要這麼做那應該由立法院來立法而不是由大法官來告訴你說你這個你要怎麼做你這個也是蠻離譜的啊所以我今天是覺得是這樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1063.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1084.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我希望的大法官人選是能夠理解大法官能夠做什麼而不能做什麼那我今天沒有任何政治的思考在裡面我跟老師之間就是就專業到現在此刻為止我們這十幾分鐘下來我都是跟您討論專業所以在我的見解憲判八它就是一個非常嚴重很失職的大法官做出來的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1085.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1109.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
他今天我可以尊重大法官對於憲法的任何解釋他所採取的立場都沒有關係但是今天如果侵害到立法權或者是法官的獨立審判權那就完全不對了就像老師您在很多文章都有提到包括這一次就是給您的那個資料你給我那個司法院給我的那些資料裡面您都有提到這個權限之間的彼此制衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1111.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1118.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
分立制衡之下怎麼可以讓大法官的手伸到其他五權之外的其他權這是我的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1121.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1145.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
一時間的關係我想我也不要去問太多但是我跟老師報告一件事情其實上一次的憲判八其實惹出了很多實務上面無法解決的問題我已經多次在外面有講過至少我就想到了五個問題那這五個問題到現在很多人還是覺得無解很多實務的人或是很多真正懂操作的人完全覺得無解第一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1146.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1154.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這些人回歸到普通法院：變成被告之後根本不符合羈押要件老師您行訴你一定非常懂羈押要件逃亡篡政 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1156.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1180.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
就這兩個或是反復實施但是一個二三十年前的案子他根本沒有逃亡或篡證那之前回過頭去當作普通法院被告的時候您要如何羈押這是前一個憲判八大法官搞出來一個大麻煩實務上根本無解第二個即使回到普通法院法官也願意押他羈押期只有15個月但是現在的案子都要求重複的精神鑑定有的沒有的一大堆 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1181.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1210.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
趕到最後15個月根本不夠用所以4個月滿了以後你沒有辦法再押他他可能會放出來所以剛剛押不成就是一個問題就會放出來15個月超過也有可能放出來第三個問題是裡面有一些被告適用更久之前的假釋規定10年就可以假釋有的適用15年有的少數適用25年所以有一些人他在裡面已經積壓很久了他可以折抵一堆刑期那到最後變成他只要判無期徑馬上就出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1211.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1222.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
收容天數可不可以折禮刑期?這以後一定會有廢紙團體幫他主張再來就是他回歸被告身份之後有沒有一些空窗期這也是問題因為時間關係我這邊跟老師報告就有這些問題這都是沒有實務經驗搞好謝謝吳委員 |