| IVOD_ID |
158089 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158089 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-11 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-11T14:30:39+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-11T14:51:16+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:37 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7bc6073edac3146deb7ae5f1b8d97d757bc0e35bc25a01cc9de9f047aa0fec6732eaf49779187fd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
翁曉玲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:30:39 - 14:51:16 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名張文貞、姚立明、何賴傑、陳運財、王碧芳、廖福特、劉靜怡7位為司法院大法官，並以張文貞為院長、姚立明為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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主席好還有各位委員媒體記者們大家好在這邊先有請陳教授陳運財 陳教授我們請陳備提名人答詢委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
陳教授您好您這次被賴慶德總統提名為大法官候選人在此本席當然基於我是立法委員所以我必須要針對您的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
42.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
59.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
陳教授,您研究刑法,又留學日本。那我想請教您,您有知道最近的一則日本的新聞嗎?就是日本政府,他們到現在為止,仍然是維持要有死刑的看法。您知道這則新聞嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
61.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
82.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我並沒有特別follow對,不過因為是日本我想他們法務省也都有定期做相關的民意調查是的,因為在今年11月的時候這個日本的法界人士其實有在給日本的政府建議說要重新檢討死刑但是呢日本政府他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
83.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
112.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
他的這個官房長官林芳正就表示死刑制度的存廢是涉及到日本刑事制度核心的重要的議題應該要從國民的輿論實現社會正義等等這些角度來慎重思考所以對於情節重大的凶惡犯罪死刑的存在不可避免那麼日本政府是不考慮開設相關的會議來進行檢討死刑那我想請教您您對於日本政府的這樣子一個態度您的看法是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
114.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
131.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我想每個國家對死刑制度的存諱．應該都有他們國家．很多多方的考量．那這一次現判第8號的判決．針對死刑存諱本身．其實也明白表示這是立法者．想有一定的形成空間． |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
133.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
161.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好的,謝謝您的回答就是這次的大法官在現判自8號這個死刑有條件核限的這個判決裡面雖然認為死刑是有條件核限但是其實也設下了多重的門檻您剛剛說得很好就死刑的存廢應該是要由立法者來決定那請問有關於如何判死以及死刑的構成要件以及這個執行死刑的要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
162.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
166.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
是該由大法官來決定嗎?還是這也是屬於立法者的形成空間?對,那我個人覺得說,實行的權會本身,我們先確立是屬於立法形成的空間。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
179.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
204.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
不過就個案來講：他是要具體適用死刑：要見來判處死刑：這個部分當然一般是屬於事實法院認定的範圍：那麼就憲法法庭來講：我想他應該是基於對所謂的人的生命權的保障：認為要剝奪一個被指控涉嫌犯重罪的被告死刑：那麼他也參著國際人權法： |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
207.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
210.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
大法官有這個權利可以繼續對於要如何判死刑然後這個相關的法院法官裡面如何審議合議這個部分來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
231.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
253.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
來透過釋憲來指導立法者來做出決定嗎這難道不是一種這個憲法擴權司法擴權這個我想這部分其實是有蠻多爭議的那我接下來我想請教您的就是因為這次憲判自8號所受理的死刑的樣態只是包括4個死刑罪名事實上在我們憲刑法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
254.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
277.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
還有大概有80多種的跟死刑有關的罪名如果接下來又有死刑犯要提起申請這個死刑違憲的釋憲案請問您會繼續維持憲判自8號的判決還是會做出推翻這個判決直接宣告死刑違憲又或者是你根本認為死刑合憲然後同時要把這些條件全部都刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
279.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
295.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我想基本上對於將來可能具體個案進入到憲法法庭來做違憲的審查的部分我在這邊先沒有辦法也不適合表達個人的立場或建議不過剛剛我有提的這樣的問題我願意就一般論來做回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
301.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
323.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那麼我想繼續尊重生命權的觀點那這一次的憲判8號提出了罪責的要件必須是個案那麼是最嚴重的犯罪情節那麼就所適用的視訟程序必須是符合最嚴密的正當法律程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
324.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
349.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那我覺得說以這樣的標準來做審查是應該好簡單來說您就是支持大法官這次的憲判制8號判決基本上我尊重您從頭到尾您都是支持雖然說您曾經表達您的立場您是反對死刑的但是您還是認同憲判制8號所做的判決以及他立下的種種的條件是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
351.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
352.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
接下來我要問一個問題就是因為大法官在這次的憲判執法後判決裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
370.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
398.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
其實有一個條件是特別引人大家就是引起這個眾多實務界批評的就是呢未來法院判處死刑必須要何一庭法官要一致決然而在目前的國民法官法的規定裡面其實針對死刑的科處事實上只要是國民法官及法官雙方意見三分之二以上同意就可以了那麼請問一下憲判自8號的判決是不是能夠拘束國民法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
400.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
422.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
憲判8號的判決他只有拘束何一庭的職業法官並沒有拘束國民法官所以你如果說國民法官不修法或者是說我們接下來的立法委員我們這裡提修法提高做成死刑同意的門檻從三分之二到四分之三類似像這樣的法律你認為會違憲嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
425.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
443.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
基本上我先說明就是國民法官法83條針對死刑的科刑要求要有三分之二的過半數決以上更高的標準而且必須有這些法官一票在裡面他的目的本來就是希望讓死刑的科刑能夠慎重那也能夠讓國民法官法庭的合議能夠充分的討論這他原來的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
445.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
447.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那今天因為現辦8號的影響所以連同國民法官法的83條有關死刑的科刑也要求必須是3位職業法官要一致決在外加國民法官即位進來是嗎他可以這樣子的解釋嗎你的3位職業法官要一致決 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
461.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
464.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
也就是說他只有居宿國民法官的那個庭裡面的職業法官嗎我覺得您這樣的解釋是有問題的簡單來說啦就是憲判自8號的判決其實已經備受批評包含他還做了很多的宿外裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
477.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
503.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
申請人沒有申請的然後大法官也都擴權自己跳下去去當立法者這是對於這個很多的法界人士是不能夠認同的所以呢我接下來我想請教您的還有一個問題就是有關於就是藐視國會罪的問題藐視國會罪這個我知道您因為在日本留學所以您應該知道說日本法上其實也對於政府官員在立法在國會殿堂上的虛偽陳述有處罰吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
506.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
531.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
日本他們有所謂的兩院作證的簡單而言就是就是議會作證的政研法的規定有是對然後呢但是呢我們這次大法官在現判自9號事件案當中認為說到立法院接受質詢的行政首長政府官員對立法院負責是只負政治責任不負法律責任您是否同意這樣的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
536.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
552.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
以我目前被提名的角度來講我尊重憲法的角度那我進一步要跟委員說明的就是說雖然說日本有所謂的議會正言法的規定對於不服從比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
552.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
573.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
通知到議會作證．到議會作證沒有．就是做據實陳述等等．他有違反義務的處罰．也有違憲的處罰．不過我想畢竟日本他是一個．議會內閣制的國家．那他也沒有我們台灣的監察院．等等的問題存在．所以我想可能也不能不予相提並論． |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
576.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
590.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
謝謝陳教授的回答不管是議會內閣制的國家或是總統制的國家乃至於美國都有處罰藐視國會罪人家都是西方民主先進的國家知道權力分立是要如何的制衡唯有我們的大法官這個獨樹一格這一屆的大法官真的是獨樹一格 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
595.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
620.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
國外先進民主國家的好地方他不學他竟做一些反民主反法治國原則的這種釋憲判決那麼也不知道說他們的學問到底做到哪裡去了我真的認為說我們現在的憲法法庭是不是快要回到納粹時代的憲法法院把這個台灣這三四十年來的民主法治的成就整個都打回到這100年前的帝國時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
621.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
647.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好那接下來我要請教您的就是您是否支持許宗麗院長所談的司法積極主義事實上許宗麗院長在她擔任院長的這8年裡面她基本上這個非常的這個積極的在在市縣上面做了很多企圖想要改變制度然後凌駕立法指揮立法的這樣的一個判決那麼這也引起了大家的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
649.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
671.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
也引起了社會上面很多人的批評認為說現在大法官不斷的擴權凌駕民意所以我想請教您就是第一個您是否支持許仲麗的司法積極主義第二個當大法官擴權大法官做成違憲的憲法判決的時候誰來節制大法官的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
674.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
698.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
第一個問題我認為所謂的司法積極主義的具體的內涵其實可能見仁見智那以我個人如果有機會擔任大法官的工作我基本上還是會回歸到向法法庭他還是應該在維護權力分立跟制衡以及維護人民的基本權的觀點來做司法審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
700 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
701.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那怎麼樣來極致大法官的擴權? |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
721.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
746.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我想目前委員問得很好那這也是我一直在思考的地方就是司法的違憲審查跟民族主義之間的衝突應該怎麼去做橫平那我目前的所謂的民主主義大概有兩個方式在我們憲法所肯定的一個就是我們立法院的間接大意形的民主一個是公民投票的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
746.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
761.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那麼確實歷來我們來看大法官的違憲審查會跟這兩個會有點衝突那我覺得說這個部分目前我的想法是當然就是盡量維持相互尊重然後司法審查也能夠盡量 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
763.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
780.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好謝謝陳教授的回答不好意思我必須要常常打斷您因為我的質詢時間有限還有後面很多問題所以我聽您的談法基本上您也認為或許透過公投來覆決憲法法院的判決是一個可行的做法因為它是基於國民主權原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
782.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
809.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我可以補充一下嗎問題就是說即使公民投票的結果那由立法院來針對公民投票的創制的方式來立法那我們知道這邊一樣其實它也有一定的情形也可能進入憲法法庭的司法審查的範圍畢竟憲法法庭還是在維護憲法的最高法規的最高性所以你的意思是說透過公民投票來覆決法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
809.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
811.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
然後最後還要再進到憲法法庭來審判如果公民投票覆決憲法判決最後的結果還要再經過這個憲法法庭的審判那這不就是大法官就是無限大 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
823.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
825.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
市長真的是我們國家的炭上皇了 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
854.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
872.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
審理憲法判決的門檻同意門檻請問您是否支持這樣的法案有關這個部分我是不是可以分兩個層次來看一個部分是目前委員提案預定修正把所謂的現有總額改為法定總額另外一個就是決議違憲的門檻要提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
879.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
893.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
對於第一個部分我覺得要改為法定總額的話目前可能我想媒體或說有些機關團體表示疑慮如果萬一有大法官因為迴避或因為事故 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
896.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
900.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
因為大法官迴避的話就扣除了所以基本上是不計算在內的基本上是不會啦如果說大法官真的有迴避當然這迴避的人數就不計算在內但是您基本上也認為提高這個評議門檻提高出席門檻基本上是提高評議門檻的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
920.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
947.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我覺得憲法訴訟我剛修正後不久我們是不是可以再花比較多的時間來觀察目前究竟憲法法庭做成相關的司法審查的情況如何再來思考怎麼做研議修法是不是比較好因為我想說這個畢竟這還是屬於我們的立法形成的空間這屬於立法者的決定畢竟我們從過去看到平穎的門檻曾經有過四分之三的三分之二到現在二分之一就代表說立法者本來就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
948.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
972.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
考慮到在整個憲法訴訟的這個發展引進的過程當中大法官審理有沒有出一些什麼問題所以這應該就是屬於立法者的權限了吧我不希望說未來我這個法案通過之後呢去集體釋憲然後又被大法官認為是違憲所以聽到您今天這樣講法我至少是支持本席的法案我很高興那接下來我還要再請教您一個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
974.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
987.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
不知道您有沒有看到這也是這兩天的這個重要的新聞一個南投的縣議員齒雪燕她遭到內政部以違反國籍法解除公職那內政部認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
992.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1018.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
他要放棄他的國籍：然後因為沒有得到這個有國籍的證明：所以呢解除他已經任職執議員的這樣的公職：我想請教您的是您認為大陸人民是外國人嗎當然是目前我們有兩岸人民關係條例來做規範是所以大陸人民是不是外國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1020.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1045.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
如果從憲法的觀點來講有關大陸人士就憲法基本人權的部分我覺得跟我們國人應該一律的保障不過我想在兩岸人民關係條例針對參政權的部分那就有一定的限制我想這有一定的公共利益的考量陳教授其實我的問題非常簡單就是您認為大陸人是外國人嗎還是我們中華民國的人民中華民國的國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1046.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1070.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
以目前我們兩岸之民關係條例來看他應該沒有我們中華民國國籍對除非他有按照我們的相關的規定他沒有我們中華民國的國籍您知道我們的國籍法是採什麼主義嗎對是我們是採血統主義是所以大陸地區的人民他的祖先可能他的這個爸爸媽媽他的祖父祖母就是中華民國國民所以他沒有中華民國國籍這樣的邏輯有點怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1077.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1100.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
你剛才不斷的提到兩岸人民關係條例在我們兩岸人民關係條例裡面所定義的大陸地區人民是中華民國的國民是吧?如果他是外國人我們根本不需要兩岸人民關係條例啊我想委員你有您的這樣的解釋是 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1101.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1121.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
沒有 陳教授因為您接下來極有可能會擔任大法官如果您擔任大法官您勢必會遇到有關於對於中華民國憲法的解釋對於我們中華民國國民的解釋在過去曾經有中華民國領土的解釋大法官說這屬於政治問題所以他不碰 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1123.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1141.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
現在有關於中華民國國民的問題您認為大法官應該怎麼解釋?所以我回到我剛剛跟委員報告的就是說從憲法的觀點要來看這樣的一個具體的個案它所涉及的是憲法有關哪一個部分的基本人權的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1143.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1160.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
對,用這樣的標準來進行審查憲法保障基本人權分好幾個概念有保障人權、國民權、公民權等等所以即便外國人他可能也在特殊的一些基本權利上面也會受到我們憲法的保障但是現在的很清楚的就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1161.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1185.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
已經取得中華民國國籍以及公民權的陸配議員那麼竟然可以因為內政部說他沒有放棄這個大陸地區國籍所以呢要把他的公職來解除本席就好奇就是說是那他們是外國人嗎大陸地區的人民是外國人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1187.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1192.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
他可以說他放棄國籍嗎?我們中華民國有承認中華人民共和國是國家嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1196.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1201.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這句話要講清楚將中華人民共和國視為叛亂地區還是將大陸地區視為叛亂地區更何況我們已經解除動員開亂時期了 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1224.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1224.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
謝謝翁委員 |