| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7bc6073edac3146d313cffd1804ac0ef7bc0e35bc25a01ccc3ed225b067283af0b16ca848615eb905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
牛煦庭 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:59:08 - 11:19:34 |
| 影片長度 |
1226 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名張文貞、姚立明、何賴傑、陳運財、王碧芳、廖福特、劉靜怡7位為司法院大法官，並以張文貞為院長、姚立明為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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謝謝主席,這個被提名人何賴傑教授有請請何被提名人答詢 |
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教授早安,這個在開始之前何先續名?這個當前的社會氛圍,人民對司法其實是高度不信任的。那麼大法官作為基本上在法律,不管是學界也好、實務界也好,基本上都是最高的驕傲。一旦成為了國家的大法官,基本上在法律的部分,話語權是非常大的。 |
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剛剛委員在跟很多委員的答詢的過程中其實大家都討論大法官有沒有所謂的民意基礎 |
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其實本席認為現在就是大法官的產生跟民意產生連結的唯一時刻因為同意權行使過後你們基本上愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞恐怕也很難做出差別剛剛有講這就是立法院經過審查所以你有民意及主席他就變相證明過去做出所謂的憲判第8號的這一群實質廢死的大法官基本上就是在民進黨一黨獨大的國會裡面多數通過的 |
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換言之他也變相承認了民進黨其實就是造成現在這樣的狀況的共犯結構我還是回到我們主題啊這個行使統一權是你唯一跟民意產生連結的時刻所以希望何教授待會在詢答的時候必須審慎而且認真 |
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118.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們從您的自傳開始說起我們談一下理念的部分你認為民主、自由、人權跟法治是法治國原則的基石價值主導支配司法改革最重要的原則因此在我們從獨裁專制轉型成自由民主體制的台灣非常非常重要司法的改革不應該停留在形式的法治而是要著重價值理念的深化 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
118.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
119.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
韓國的戒嚴事件全世界嘩然 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
137.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
165.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
要不是沒有韓國人民的英勇抵抗跟韓國國會幕僚的這個捨身犯險恐怕他們的國會議員是沒有辦法進到議事堂開會去讓這個荒唐的戒嚴快速失效也因為這樣的狀況在國內產生了很多的政治效應我們的執政黨民進黨黨團的官方帳號到現在我們不曉得這篇文是誰發的但他這篇文影射之意非常嚴重而且有非常非常多其支持者附和甚至希望中華民國再次 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
165.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
166.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
有戒嚴的這樣的狀況出現請問被提名人怎麼評論這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
172.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
198.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
評論韓國的這一個嗎還是評論民進黨發文的這件事關於戒嚴這一塊老實講我自己個人的立場就是現在除非你真的碰到了戰爭不然的話老實講根本沒有戒嚴的這樣的一個必要性確實就是這樣但很多人也會告訴我其實目前的台灣因為我們的戒嚴法民國三十幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
200.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
201.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我等一下再問你戒嚴法你先評論這一篇發文妥不妥當應不應該被譴責 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
222.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
235.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那我不知道這一篇到底他們的這個民進黨呢用這個官方的帳號到底這一部內部到底是不是他們民進黨的政策還是怎麼樣這個我不知道但 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
236.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
254.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我認為不管任何的政黨不管任何人在台灣都不應該支持在現階段的台灣在沒有這個戰爭的情況下宣布戒嚴即使我覺得即使總統做這一件事情恐怕都不適當第二個問題我們需要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
255.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
272.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
就是因為這樣子的一個狀況當然我們就剛剛其實教授已經想要開始回答了這國民黨這邊開始有提出的所謂的戒嚴法的修法版本簡單來說第一個重點就是讓這個把關的機制更加的完善也就是說如果宣布24小時內必須要議決如果真的遇到了國家的緊急危難那當然也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
273.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
277.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
請問這個被提名人這樣子的修法版本是否有助於維護民主自由人權跟法治等法治國精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
296.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
317.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
關於這個戒嚴法我剛剛還沒有講完就是因為太久沒有修啦所以是不是要配合那個去修那到時候再看但現行的戒嚴法12條其實有規定就是立法院如果決議以請總統解嚴應即宣告解嚴也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
318.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
343.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
在韓國他們的國會決議然後總統馬上就宣告決言這樣的一個情況其實在我們現有的戒嚴法也有所以你認為王貝不是要再修正嗎?我只問你修正之後會不會更加符合你想強調的那些自由民主、人權法治等法治國精神如果這樣修的話也就是我們讓法條更完備啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
343.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
349.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
增加24小時必須追人以及休會期間必須立刻召開臨時會這樣子的把關機制是否有助於完成你這樣的精神? |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
350.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
375.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個我可能需要再仔細的去看看因為我沒有看到這一個版本到底這個版本實際上會產生什麼樣的影響這個可能容我之後再去看看這一個問題是可能在哪裡好 第三個我要問了針對這樣子的一個版本的一些內容有民進黨立委立刻發文說或者是在媒體面前表態說這是破壞國家安全這樣修法會破壞國家安全嗎還是你也要再看一下法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
377.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
403.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個跟國家安全的是戒嚴的一個戰爭的狀態緊急狀態用這種方式去處理嗎我的意思是說國民黨這樣子修法的版本啊就是加嚴他的標準啊這個我不知道我不曉得因為這個脈絡到底是談國家安全是在什麼樣的脈絡下這個我恐怕也沒有辦法針對這一個來進一步的評論好沒關係留下紀錄以之公決再來我要再問 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
407.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
431.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個講一個以前發生過的事情2010年的時候當然因為兩公約的修法等等這法界當然就開始進行討論我想討論是沒有問題的因為當初在這個倡議跟行動的時候其實大家有一起給當時的法務部長曾永福的一封公開信也就是說台灣應該要暫緩執行死刑因為討論你必須經過完整的討論之後做制度上的修正或改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
432.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
458.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
大家會簽名我那時候還查了一下聯署的有非常多法界的學者之外而且跨越黨派即便不同政黨意識形態的人都認同這樣的事但是我還講這個重點不是為了廢死而是為了討論也就是說從2010年開始討論廢死這件事情它就是正式浮上這個重大社會議題的一個討論那我想請問這個你也是參與人其中之一你也聯署了對不對14年過去了請問討論改變了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
462.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
478.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
老實講 這個也是剛剛事務委員談到的這個問題說我在學界20幾年那參加了這一些倡議、連署、甚而參加研討會其實有非常多的我的想法等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
480.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
501.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這一些基本上都是學界老實講就是你等於是無權去做這一些解釋或者無權去做這一些行為的時候你再講再多恐怕也不見得真的有作用那現在目前來看實際上有沒有暫停執行死刑那後面我再討論你剛剛講沒有這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
502.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
518.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
你剛剛講了你說學界的討論因為你沒有實際的權利所以沒有辦法影響什麼所以學界的討論並不會影響社會的觀感你的意思是這樣嗎會不會影響社會觀感很難講但不會是直接的影響到法律的實施或者法律的制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
519.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
541.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我拿整理了一些數據給這個被提名人來做參考也就是說從你2010年開始討論歷年來大家針對死刑的民意調查滿諷刺的事情就是這個不贊成廢死的比例最低的那一年也就是說大家還比較用相對開放一點點台灣社會畢竟是保守的但大家還相對開放一點點的心態恰恰就是在發起討論的2010年 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
544.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
563.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
還是有74.3的人接近7乘5的人是反對廢死的然後我們剛剛問你14年來討論什麼當你每一年都討論你在法界開了研討會各式各樣公民倡議以及等等但結論是什麼你這數字這樣一路看下來有高有低啊但從來沒有低於2010年的水準也就是說只是14年過後 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
564.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
589.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你最新的一樣是中正大學犯罪研究中心它是每一年都做啊這個不贊成廢死者比例從2010年74.3現在變成85.5你越討論反對廢死者你越高啊為什麼我覺得這一個我想請應該這樣我把問題問得更明確一點啦其實就是我剛剛開宗明義講的現在社會對於司法的公信力是存疑的法界跟社會脫節的問題也是大家都討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
590.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
612.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
請問被提名人的看法我所理解的比如說這個民意調查我沒有意見我覺得這一個對於我所理解的民意可能他真的就是一個真實的反應但對我來講就是民意這麼高比例的反對死刑到底是一個出於一個什麼樣的一個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
613.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
635.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
其中我認為有一點其實是這樣就是我們作為刑法組刑的死刑跟無期徒刑這個中間其實我認為跳躍性很大對民眾來講那你不死刑的話那就只能跳無期徒刑那無期徒刑以目前又可以假釋的話時間到他就出來啦那我能接受嗎可能很多民眾不能接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
636.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
663.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
好 所以是這個配套的問題那我們在這邊我們還是要不免這個很多委員其實都問了但我們也不免不免重複的問一下我剛剛聽啦你剛剛講說身為一個學者你是反對死刑的嘛對我這樣其實應該沒有錯對好 但是你現在是大法官的被提名人那你如果真的順利的通過了提名成為了大法官未來在面對死刑存廢這樣子的議題的時候你的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
665.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
678.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我已經之前其實我也說過了就是說我的態度基本上反對死刑但反對死刑跟廢除死刑這個其實它是有階段性的問題也就是說憲法法庭的大法官們 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
680.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
706.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
有15位那在15位的時候其實你每一個人針對這個死刑你都要表示你的意見所以也不是一個人能夠是說我反對死刑所以死刑一定要廢除我可能在這一點上面我不會那麼直接的就做這樣的判斷因為也要考慮到個案的情況你不能講說我可能不會做這樣的判斷因為我必須要在 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
707.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
731.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
各案的情形因為將來很有可能大法官面臨的其實是各案的裁判確定判決如果被判死刑了人民針對這個來申請釋憲的時候那就必須針對各案的情節到底這樣的一個法院判決死刑這樣是不是合憲那個就是一個個案問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
731.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
747.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以你面對這些數據還有14年來溝通反而反對聲音越來越大的一個情況下你的結論是要交給個案來做判斷是嗎對我覺得要個案來認定你自己覺得這樣子的一個說法能不能說服或者是安定社會大眾焦躁不安的心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
748.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
774.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我必須要講從法律的層面或者憲法的層面我們的法官其實應該要做的其實是要依照法律獨立審判然後其實他必須要依照他的良心來判所以要不要宣告死刑這件事在目前法律還維持死刑的這樣的一個規定的時候法官只能依照個案來決定要不要宣告死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
774.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
799.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那大法官既然認定在現判第8號判決認定死刑在目前不構成違憲的時候那將來如果碰到個案基本上我會尊重先前的判決的先例如果沒有其他讓我可以作為改變這一個判決先例的那一些其他的情勢出現之前我會尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
800.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
802.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這一個 憲法法理事權的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
805.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
830.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
基本上啦在面對這樣子的題目的時候不外乎幾種就是說你說我堅持我作為一個學者的立場你可能很多法律的人認為說大家對於法律不信任是因為缺乏溝通缺乏說明大家對法律不了解以及等等所以你必須堅持幾件捍衛你自己的立場跟價值我想這是一種回答的方式那麼第二種是看到了社會的氛圍考量社會跟法律的這個脫節以及人民對於司法高度的不信任你必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
832.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
846.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
捨棄你的理念以大眾為先尊重民意做出符合民意的決斷可是你並不是走這兩種你說我要個案判斷我有一種喔雖然你今天是被提名人你身份是教授但我有一種在質詢官員的感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
847.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
865.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
你在中間找出第三條路試圖用政治的話術來逃避問題這本席對你的回答本席是有點失望的我們為什麼要這樣反覆強調今天那麼多的委員也不只是針對您個人這請你不要往心裡去為什麼大家今天這麼關心這件事情就是因為113年的現判第8號就是現在在任的這群大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
865.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
894.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
真的是我們從社會的角度為社會代言的角度出發基本上就是胡說非為嘛稍早才出現的這個新竹輪胎行的縱火案這一把火燒死8個人包含自己的這個直系新竹在內然後二審說改判無期徒刑前面那段時間這個人民走上街頭啊久違的走上街頭大家是非常難過的因為一個獅奪獎這個獸獎的這個女教師出門只是要幫家裡人買菜結果先被搶劫後被性侵最後被殘忍殺害 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
895.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
912.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
結果一個是說因為他自首活有悔意所以逃過死刑一個是講說這個東西並不符合所謂的最嚴重犯刑所以逃過死刑所以你們剛剛的詮釋或是您剛剛在回答說我們依個案來判定 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
914.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
925.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
給社會為什麼你會從70幾%反對變成80幾%反對就是因為你每一次的個案認定每一次的判決都大大的加深了社會對司法的不信任難道沒有這個問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
927.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
948.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
為什麼要個案認定其實因為死刑這一個刑法的手段涉及到在個案法官的量刑的職權也就是說法官在量刑的時候到底決定按照個案的事實是要給他死刑還是無期徒刑要看個案的情節而量刑這件事對法官來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
949.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
966.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
是一個非常就是說重要但是也很難以去判斷的因為沒有兩個刑事案件是完全一模一樣然後被告殺人的情節殺人的狀況也都不一樣所以如果你要切一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
966.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
986.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
按照這個標準那一定要判處死刑的話那你可能就必須對法官量刑在判決的時候那個量刑的因子你必須把它確定下來但這一點在目前刑事法或者憲法上很有可能都會被人家認為你干預到法官的獨立審判權 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
987.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1005.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
司法院也誠心考量所以你剛剛在答詢的時候基本上你認為依個案判定其實你就要給予法官最大的授權空間但我要告訴你這一段時間這樣子的一個機制的一個行使就是當下社會的人心惶惶大家不再相信法律不相信法律可以懲奸除惡也不相信法律能夠保護好人 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1006.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1033.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我們就最後這段時間我們就以憲判第8號來做收尾你剛剛有講啊你說我們不能太侵害法官的這個自由但是我現在講你是侵害社會對於公平正義的期待啊憲判第8號的判決雖然你剛剛在回答的時候你也講說我們又沒有講說實行違憲它合憲啊可是你合憲的時候你加入了這樣的東西尤其在詮釋的時候加入了比如說一字決好了一字決這件事情當初在申請的時候它是題目之一嗎它不是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1034.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1037.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
他在過去的時候有任何判例有爭點嗎?沒有爭點請問他怎麼變出來的?為什麼他會突然跑出來這樣子的一個解釋? |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1043.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1066.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我所瞭解這個其實在美國聯邦在陪審團在決定要死刑的時候其實有這樣的一個例子就是陪審員要一字決但這種情況以我所瞭解在世界各地應該這種情況在先判第8話受理的案子的時候有沒有這件事嗎有沒有問這件事沒有對不對那你為什麼可以突然詮釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1067.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1094.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我今天現判第8個最大的問題其實在大法官造法一般的法官造法也就是說我用判例來彌補立法的若干不足這件事情大家都沒有意見因為這些判例如果不符合社會期待立法委員、立法權的任何行使者都還是可以透過制度的修訂來完善法律的體系可是大法官造法跟法官造法是不一樣的概念你們卡著憲法你有絕對的權勢權你的權勢權一下來之後我立法委員我也無計可施啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1095.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1121.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
比如說你今天講這些東西請問我要修什麼樣的方式來修正這樣一個錯誤你甚至可以在形成的過程中直接辨出來以自覺這件事情請問這不是大法官造法是什麼請問這有沒有侵犯立法形成自由剛剛很多委員也有講到同婚四之七四八同婚四之七四八你的內容是至於以何種形式達成婚姻自由的平等保護屬於立法形成之範圍那為什麼在這種法案上他就沒有立法形成之範圍為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1123.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1151.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
當然在這一點上他是針對死刑這一個實體手段到底這個手段合不合憲後面加了很多的那一些程序的保障那一個在大法官的看法認為我們要死刑的時候要用一個最嚴密的一個正當程序的考量所以我從那個裡面去推說什麼樣叫最嚴密的正當法律程序你覺得大法官造法是不是侵犯立法權 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1153.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1176.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
大法官可以造法但會不會侵害到立法權或者立法的自由形成那一個要在個案裡面去看你又要個案認定了這一種在死刑這個案子裡面我認為在目前的這個氛圍下死刑沒有違憲這件事情其實大法官也考慮到很多應該判斷的那一些因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1177.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1192.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
時間很少剛剛黃建豪委員剛剛有提到說被害人的權力救濟的部分你曾經有講說被害人現在應該要參與對不對可是你在法學會理事長的時候你可不是這樣說的啊你說欸如果這樣子會變成被告這個被告會變成一打多的局面美國也不允許這樣的事你有沒有講過這樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1193.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1219.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那不是我的主張那是有一些律師律師同道的主張他們認為讓過多的被害人參與只有一個被告然後如果有10個被害人那到底要怎麼進行程序他們有人提出這樣的意見我提醒被提名人啦就是凡事都交給個案認定他不是一個好的答案啦我知道要怎麼投票了謝謝好謝謝牛委員也謝謝被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1225.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1225.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
盧美麟 |
| IVOD_ID |
158087 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158087 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-11 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-11T10:59:08+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-11T11:19:34+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |