| IVOD_ID |
158084 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158084 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-11 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-11T09:51:34+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-11T10:12:16+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:42 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7bc6073edac3146df6a4262aea7fb5307bc0e35bc25a01cc6c4eb63eeb90e614fbd5a51b102a7b385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王義川 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:51:34 - 10:12:16 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名張文貞、姚立明、何賴傑、陳運財、王碧芳、廖福特、劉靜怡7位為司法院大法官，並以張文貞為院長、姚立明為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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主席何教授何備提名人答詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
27.355 |
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53.368 |
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王委員你好何教授、何院長好今天請你來參加這個大法官被提名人的相關的巡檔剛剛聽到兩位同仁對你的提問對你的反應不卑不亢該講就講我非常的欽佩做一個大法官就是要這樣不用畏畏縮縮該講的心就該講因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
58.086 |
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83.765 |
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在今天上來質詢之前我問過很多學法律的他們都是你的核心你這個在政大教書從這個教授這個系主任到院長到主任秘書討理滿天下所以對你的這一個法學的這個專業跟素養其實大家不用懷疑大家不用懷疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
84.465 |
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97.95 |
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那但是有幾個問題在你成為大法官之前還是要請教你我知道你兩天來做大法官面對這些問題態度是什麼好我們來看我要給這個詢問的第一題這個大法官常常在做憲法裁判、憲法法庭在開叫董事人申請的團體來問 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
112.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
120.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
現在像昨天那個斐憲亂政的法律法律在蒙的時候就有傳播很多人 幾百萬人在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
123.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
148.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那或者是說這個你們事先之前也會有很多的民意調查大法官做出裁決裁判事先之前很多民意調查很多網路的這個風向很多民意代表意見也很多我請問這個何教授你有沒有在看政論節目 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
150.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
176.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
有啦齁,你也在看所有媒體啦,一些網路媒體啦,一些報導,多少都在看啦齁你政委以後當了大法官以後這個要事先前法庭開的前後啦齁相關的彼此的答辯的過程中對於這些輿論齁,各式各樣的輿論有些在情樂的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
178.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
198.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
有些民調跟你講 你大法官你如果做出這個裁決 社會沒辦法接受有很多這種東西啦你覺得你個人 別說全部的大法官 你如果做大法官之後你覺得這些事情 你的看法跟態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
201.238 |
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218.152 |
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謝謝萬委員對一個大法官來講以我個人的看法他的其實主要的一個權限其實是在針對國家根本大法的憲法來做解釋所以在這一點上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
219.451 |
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237.641 |
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大法官跟立法院代議或者是立法委員的功能其實是不一樣的也就是說在這一點上大法官他不是像立委他們的所謂的這樣的一個民主的正當性在大法官這一塊其實他沒有那麼強 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
239.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
257.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
大法官雖然是透過立法院同意後任命但他的民主正當性基本上還是弱於所謂的立法院的這一些立委的選舉等等但大法官在解釋憲法的時候自己本身必須要有自己的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
258.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
275.067 |
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心裡的有一些基準對我來講很簡單的就是民主、自由、法治、人權保障這四個我是不是能夠說服得了我自己也就是在這一點上媒體或者一般民眾到底怎麼去談我認為有時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
276.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
303.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
通常他是基於個人的地位立場從自己的角度去看那個問題但我認為大法官要看這一個國家這一個問題的時候他的高度必須要能夠終關國家的一個全部的狀況然後來做利益的權衡也就是說在這一點上不是媒體或者是輿論然後他們做了什麼大法官一定要依照這個媒體跟輿論去走 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
305.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
310.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
如果這樣的話那大法官他做一個法官的一個獨立性就沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
315.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
336.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這一些輿論有時候我們看不看,就是因為你們是大法官,你們就按照你們的訓練,按照現在憲法的規定,按照這個學理來做一些分析,介紹給人民聽。可是我又問,這個憲法弄得不好,現在這個中華民國憲法裡面有一些東西奇奇怪怪, |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
341.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
369.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這是憲法,這是不改進程,它也是憲法,它也是憲法啊。你要改選的時候,是要按照一本不合理的憲法,如果說外國不合理的話,叫不合理的憲法,還是叫全世界的憲法都這樣用?若是這個帝國回到你,現在讓你回到,讓你回到,你是維持這個,你跟我說的這個自由啦,民主啦,這個力量,叫全世界一起, |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
370.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
383.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
還是沒辦法,這中華民國憲法就是奇奇怪怪,裡面有一些條文,這要讓我解釋下去,這我也很困難。你怎麼把權衡說成一種方法,你說出來不會違背你的訓練、你的學術的良心,還有辦法社會覺得你說的是對的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
395.069 |
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411.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
對我來講我覺得我比較會有比較大的困難的是在於說對憲法的解釋適用憲法的那些基本的原理原則其實我們或多或少深入的程度也許不同但我們都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
412.017 |
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432.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
但這一些想法或者這一些理念其實很多我們受到的這一些訓練或者學習的來源其實是那一些民主的或者法治的先進國家然後到了台灣的時候我覺得有時候我真的會碰到一些困難就是別人國家他在這一個規定上 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
433.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
460.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
他們是這樣的解釋適用可是在台灣如果我們做這樣的解釋適用的話恐怕就會碰到很大的一個瓶頸根結還是在於憲法就是我們的憲法到底以過去這樣的憲法到後來的增修條文是不是真的足以符合我們現在台灣的法治或者是民主憲政的這個現況那如果不符合的時候那大法官能怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
460.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
481.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
最根本的問題當然就是要去修憲符合台灣現在的一個憲政狀況來修憲但剛剛黃委員問過因為我們的這個修憲的門檻太高所以在這種情況下在沒有解決這個問題之前大法官的責任就會變得非常的重也就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
481.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
506.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
憲法的文本沒有變更之前大法官到底是要怎麼做是要尊重原來憲法的文本、憲法的原意還是我們應該要看現在台灣的憲政狀況看現在各國的民主先進國家他們的憲政體制然後透過解釋的方式想辦法讓我們的憲法能夠更符合實際的需要那這個對我來講確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
508.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
536.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
需要一段時間的適應．還有也許也是一個考驗對啦 這聽起來是很困難啦即使你做到法律學院的法學院的院長我看這條也算困難啦好 那請教你的第二題是說過去有很多的事宪文有些憲法法庭的裁定、判決你舉一個例子若當時你是大法官你會寫不同意見書 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
538.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
560.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
有沒有哪一個案子,哪一個釋憲文喔,你看到之後就說,啊怎麼這樣釋憲,怎麼這樣,這不通不通,我的訓練這看來不通,舉一個就好,很故意做的沒關係啦,不要說應用到現在的大法官,大家董事有種情誼,就說過去啦,對一條,那個解說出來,你以董事若是大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
561.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
567.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我必須要這樣講就是說以我們法學訓練或者是一個法律學者老實講我對於過去的這一些不管是大法官的解釋或者是現在的憲法法庭的裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
591.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
609.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
沒有哪一個解釋或者裁判我百分之百滿意我總是會覺得這樣的解釋不夠或那樣的解釋我覺得還可以做得更好那是不是有一個解釋或者是一個裁判我是完全反對基本上以我現在來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
610.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
634.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
沒有,除非是非常久遠的在我們戒嚴時代那一個時候的解釋那為了當時的那一個戒嚴體制也許有一些解釋可能我認為不符合我們現在的一個憲政秩序但那一些解釋其實後來透過大法官或者是憲法法庭等等這些解釋也都開始去調整了 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
635.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
647.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這也是剛剛黃委員講的就是我們其實是可以透過未來的這個判決來變更過去所做的解釋或者過去的這一些判決但 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
649.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
665.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
未來到底要碰到什麼樣的個案會有什麼樣的一個情況等等那可能在目前來看以我目前的一個現在作為一個被提名人的這個角度我很難去預估未來要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
666.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
689.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這樣就對了,你做教授在教室裡面發表學術的看法跟學生交流跟研究生、跟博士班學生、學術研討會跟一些教授交流針對哪一個視線文你有意見,那可以說,這都沒問題大家見仁見智嘛,因為大家想的訓練沒感嘛今天你是被提名人,像這個地方你不可以亂贏後面可能有人會做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
693.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
710.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
要注意喔,因為你是被提名人喔,因為這個應用到這個大家心臟的這個規定喔當然當教授跟這個接下來當大法官,那個態度就沒有做大法官以後你答辯以後你也出去吃飯都不能亂講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
712.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
712.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這題齁如果有中國黨政軍的背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
736.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
756.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
他們也經過這個相關的程序 到幾年後取得中華民國的身份證你認為這些人可以擔任公職這些人可不可以參選公職然後就任公職還是你覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
758.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
763.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
憲法就規定說 中華民國國民啊 大家都可以參政啊選舉、罷免、創制、複決都可以說啊 啊他就要參政啊 啊他也有照規定啊 啊就是因為喔 中港齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
771.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
799.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
一些黨政軍的背景 真真假假 為教授 何教授你也知道 經常在兩岸交流來的教授一直都來教授 不只是教授 還是他也來交流他就派來督軍的 都有人就是說 你覺得 另一天就是說有人有這個新聞他也有中華民國新聞局 他可能多十年幾年都有他雄雄說他要選立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
801.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
814.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
阿鄉農說他要選總統阿政黨也都收聽喔 也有政黨把提名收聽喔 都沒問題喔你看這條線齁 阿如果說我們的中選會說 不行 不行 你這樣不行 喔阿你以前做什麼的 現在怎麼來選立委選總統 阿他把你申請釋憲因為中華民國憲法規定說可以啊 阿他把你申請釋憲 你看這一題你的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
830.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
854.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
對於我來說也就是說如果從憲法的角度憲法基本上是在規範國家跟國民的關係那我們在憲法上怎麼去定義所謂的國民當然如果按照王委員講的這種你取得了中華民國身份證你規劃成我們的中華民國的國籍你當然就是國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
856.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
877.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
國民之後按照憲法來看如果你取得了憲法上的國民那當然你就跟一般的國民一樣你擔任公職或者是選舉等等這些基本上可能就比較不會有問題但我認為這個問題可能是在於說我們對於這一些人是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
878.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
902.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
讓他在這個受什麼條件讓他在取得這個中華民國的這個身份取得國民身份之前是不是應該要具備什麼樣的一個條件或者是應該要考慮什麼我覺得這個可能不是憲法上面能夠代替立委或者立法院、大院去處理這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
903.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
926.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
如果說今天在立院裡面針對這一部分有一些這個立法的規定出來就是說在這種情況下然後這一些人他可以取得身份之後他就可以擔任公職可以選舉等等那立法院如果有這樣的一個所謂的實定法的話以 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
927.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
943.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我如果將來去擔任大法官原則上我對於這一點上面我會比較能夠去說服我自己去尊重立法院他所做的這個決定但我認為大法官在這一點上在解釋憲法上 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
945.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
966.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
在我們目前的憲法尤其是我們還有很多實定法比如說這個兩岸關係條例或者是我們的公職人員選舉等等這一些沒有動之前從憲法這個角度來看很難從憲法去切入所以意思就是說這個除了憲法以外我們還有其他的法律選罷法、兩岸人民關係條例、國籍法 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
975.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1000.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
現在問題來了,下一題我們一個過去的藍投憲議員,他就中國人嘛,他就沒放棄他就站不出什麼放棄中國國籍的證明嘛,每天都在說他什麼放棄副籍,就沒放棄中國籍還在中國的局面啊,還做我們藍投管理的管理員啊最近內政部就給我顧問說把你取消了啦,你整天做了,你連主席都把你取消 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1001.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1020.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這個議員他如果召去憲法法庭找這個大法官說我也是有中華民國國民的資格,你也給我算了我就放棄中國的副職,我們的國家就不會創造中華人民共和國的國籍,他這樣跟你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1021.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1031.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
若是你,你敢不受理這個案件?我們說受理就好了,後面的決定就說大罪你輪值啊大罪你輪值,這條你看這敢不受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1034.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1052.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
王委員我必須這樣講就是說非常具體個案的其實以我現在的身份不太適合提早把我的心證就在這裡公開講我當然有我自己的心證我有自己的想法只是我認為這個必須要碰到個案的時候然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1052.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1068.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
大法官也不是一個人的法官一個人的法院我還是必須要跟其他的大法官一起大家來討論決議之後才有辦法去決定實際上應該怎麼做當然這個會涉及到我認為也就是說以我們現在台灣的現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1070.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1088.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
真的會碰到一些問題就是這個問題恐怕不是其他國家會碰到的問題這個可能是真的我們非常本土的台灣的問題也就是台灣跟中國之間的這種關係彼此之間這種關係到底要用法律的角度或者憲法角度怎麼處理老實講 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1089.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1115.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這一個只有我們台灣人能夠解決因為拿到國際社會去看或者其他國家來看其他的國家基本上不太會處理因為當年東德跟西德他們基本上他們也是在聯合國也是兩個國家所以他們就是用他們國跟國那種關係去處理可是我們台灣的狀況又非常不一樣所以我不能夠那麼明白的講這種具體案子怎麼講 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1118.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1125.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
臺灣、中國這就不一樣了,這條不要為難你啦,這條不要,你應該有新證啦,好,最後最後一個請問,在憲法訴訟法的,就有人稽告,在說什麼憲法總和的定義啦,這可能無法領綱,這憲法法庭都沒辦法開啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1137.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1148.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
黃珊珊委員說要修憲門檻很高現在憲法法庭現在的門檻也很高因為我剛開始請教說你核心也很多我們這個大法官在這裡背提名人喔大家核心也很多如果剛回到這個核心喔就要整群的就對了剛回到的帝母啦不要說他們調供的啦,整群的我回到你啦我看你也要迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1165.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1183.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
你剛才說的一段要迴避的,這段迴避都開不成,這種門檻這麼高,最後剩差不多30秒,你告訴大家你的看法,你的看法就是說,這個人數的限流整合,你有什麼看法? |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1185.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1196.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
以我基本的立場我其實是覺得我們現在的憲政自由民主憲政走到今天非常的不容易所以呢身為一個大法官被提名的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1197.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1222.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
如果將來順利獲得同意的話去擔任大法官我當然是希望憲法法庭跟大法官這個職位或者是這個工作要繼續的加強因為大法官或者憲法法庭所做的這些決定不只是去談國機關跟機關之間的問題他其實還有非常重要的就是對人民基本權利的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1222.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1233.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那如果大憲法法庭被癱瘓了,或者不能運作了那我認為那個是國家將來會碰到非常大的問題謝謝王委員,也謝謝被提名的人下一位我們請黃建豪委員詢問 |