| IVOD_ID |
158079 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158079 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-10 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-10T16:11:54+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-10T16:32:27+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:33 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29fe42b2a7280ca7739068a6c334161136e3fd37d751600ae04cec5cddf8e4461f8b1bbbc21182005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
沈發惠 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:11:54 - 16:32:27 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名張文貞、姚立明、何賴傑、陳運財、王碧芳、廖福特、劉靜怡7位為司法院大法官，並以張文貞為院長、姚立明為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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主席請備提名人請姚備提名人 |
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我想我跟你認識應該超過20幾年了當年我還不是公職人員還是幕僚的時候我們在政論節目上面常常碰面在那個時代你是新黨的代表那我是民進黨的代表所以事實上這麼久以來我想這個我們認識這麼久 |
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以我對你的了解跟你接觸的人其實大概都了解你在政治的想法上面其實非常的堅定甚至可以說到固執的程度了 |
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104.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我們的理念不同從過去開始一些理念不同但是事實上跟您接觸的人都不會討厭你都知道說你有你自己固執堅持的地方但是今天來到這個您今天被提名為司法院副院長來到立法院召開這樣子的公聽會所有的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
106.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
118.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
的過往大概通通要受到檢驗了這個我們下午我下午這樣子聽這麼多委員對您的這個指教我是覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
121.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
141.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
有一些我們可以來我希望說能夠今天這個公聽會能夠讓您有更多的機會說明你個人的想法跟你個人的理念跟你個人對於未來如果你有機會擔任這樣的職務您希望能夠做什麼我覺得這個比較重要但是我剛剛看到這個下午這個很多有的委員就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
143.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
170.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
就是在這裡好像政治像在上call in節目一樣齁這個潑政治的髒水啦齁然後就說啊變來變去啦齁說你變色龍啦說你質疑你的政黨轉換只是我比較驚訝啦齁其實我個人是沒有換過政黨我從我從民進黨還沒有創黨我高中我還沒有資格加入政黨的時候我就支持民進黨一直到現在我還是民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
170.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
186.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
但是我看到有一些站在這裡質疑你的其實我看他們自己的政黨也換來換去啊有的從新黨到國民黨有的從親民黨到國民黨有的從時代力量到民眾黨有的從民進黨到民眾黨所以這個政治就是這樣子當立法委員很大站在這裡可以質疑你說你 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
197.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
222.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這個政黨你換過政黨你為什麼從以前新黨後來變成去幫柯文哲助選為什麼從幫柯文哲助選後來又幫但是在質疑你的過程裡面我就覺得說這些人家裡面沒有鏡子可以自己看一看嗎自己這個政黨換來換去然後在這裡臉不紅氣不純我個人認為說換政黨並不是問題問題是你 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
226.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
251.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
你是不是有一個中心的價值以及你這個一路走來你要經過檢驗一個人換政黨可能是這個政黨讓你失望也有可能是這個政黨它自己瓦解也有可能是這個政黨它改變了大家檢驗是檢驗今天來這裡不是檢驗你的政黨今天來這裡是檢驗姚立明這個人到底適不適任 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
253.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
270.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
擔任大法官適不適合擔任司法院副院長這樣子所以應該是檢驗你而不是檢驗說你這個政黨到底有沒有變化所以我在這裡我就要直接要請教剛才也有委員有直接有問到你這個問題就是說你有改變政黨但是你的究竟 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
272.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
293.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
究竟你的中心思想是什麼你要讓大家可以檢驗你剛剛有提到說你對中華民國這個國家認同的堅持這部分我相信而且這部分你確實經得起檢驗從過去到現在你一貫的對於中華民國包括你在新黨的時候對中華民國的看法跟到現在對中華民國的看法大概沒有改變這個部分我想應該大家沒有質疑但是其實除了國家認同以外因為當我看了 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
302.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
331.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
姚教授您的條件以你的出身背景其實算是根正苗紅根正苗紅而且你所接受的學術訓練回國之後在學術界的付出你當初如果在30年前你那時候剛回國你如果那時候加入國民黨跟著吃香喝辣那時候還在戒嚴時期跟著國民黨吃香喝辣我想你現在應該身份締約不只是司法院副院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
333.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
343.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以我想你當年加入新黨可能現在年輕人在網路上他們可能不清楚他們現在看到新黨就覺得新黨好像是一個現在是國民黨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
346.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
368.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
一個附隨組織國民黨一個小黨不清楚說當年新黨在成立的時候跟國民黨的對抗事實上是非常非常激烈的那個時候我個人身歷其境我知道說那時候新黨事實上在國民黨那時候跟國民黨的對抗是相當激烈的跟民進黨當然對抗也是很激烈的所以你一定有一些什麼樣的價值讓你選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
372.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
397.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這個價值當然奠基在憲法裡面叫中華民國我不曉得你記不記得趙少康第一次在新黨參選臺北市市長的時候的口號叫什麼就叫做保衛中華民國我就是那個時候被王健軒邀請加入新黨保衛中華民國的意思那群人全是原來在海外讀書的時候加入一個團體叫反共 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
400.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
428.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
反共復國聯盟我原來對中國﹐其實因為我的家庭背景我想你聽我的口音應該知道我所以對中國也有很多很多的憧憬可是當我因為新黨的關係保衛中華民國的關係我進入到中國以後中國以後我主要接觸的是那邊的教會人士 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
430.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
455.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我認識了許多的牧師被壓迫被逮捕我再也不跟他們往來了我大概有十多年的時間我經常進出那邊我最近二三十年幾乎沒有就是因為我完全接受我父親給我灌輸的那個觀念也許就是大家認為八股的蔣經國講的那個共產黨是不能夠互動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
457.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
486.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
本沒有任何一丁點要給你交朋友的真正的善意這叫保衛中華民國所以我認為只不能夠在保衛中華民國的概念下就是憲法的概念因為憲法就是中華民國姚教授這個當年的情景我記得非常清楚那時候在這個台北市長三個候選人一個陳水扁一個黃大洲一個趙少康 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
487.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
509.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
當初大家在針對這個市政辯論的時候在國父紀念館那時候我是現場觀眾聽眾之一以幕僚的身分那個時候趙教堂開頭批頭所講的話我到現在記得他講說全國的居民同胞中華民國要滅亡他說要反共這些東西我今天看來是格外的諷刺 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
510.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
525.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
尤其是看到有些人在這裡質疑你我就覺得這個是格外的諷刺當年說高喊要反共的現在在幹什麼當年說要保衛中華民國的人現在在幹什麼現在誰在保衛中華民國現在誰在對抗中國在保衛中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
534.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
563.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那這個是...所以拿這個來質疑姚教授說你的改變在我看來好像改變好像不是你啊好像是你過去所參加的這些政黨他們的改變對啊我其實...我想這個姚教授你不要再講了啦因為你在講也許我們兩個在這邊可以聊得很高興但是可能別人就不高興了你要是要經過同意權的投票可能別人就不高興了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
565.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
592.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
大家就說你這個是仇傭剛剛我有聽到仇傭這兩個字我聽起來就說仇傭喔所謂仇傭是說因為你有你幫我忙所以我現在給你一個好康的讓你好康的但我一看這個就不是好康的啊你要站在這裡接受這些人接受這些這些人像大家這樣子對你的質疑接受這些人對你的潑髒水 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
593.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
621.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
甚至是抹黑如果真的要酬庸你其實可以給你更好的位置啊給你一個董事長給你一個權力更大的位置啊司法院司法院副院長、大法官這個這個要來這裡接受立法委員的同意權的公聽會又要經過同意權投票大法官你又要接受這些立法委員在修改你的這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
623.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
630.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
沈委員我補一句話好不好剛才還有人提到我太太楊芳玲去擔任法務部長大家可能不知道我太太是劉德的法學博士 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
650.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
653.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個部分我想時間過了大家就可以檢驗了我想這個姚教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
675.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
701.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
之所以到現在 如果說你你這樣子是 你說你是政治辨識龍 你是辨來辨去的 你是你的人格是這種人格 我想大家也不會每一次不管是不同的黨派的人都來找你幫忙所以我覺得大家剛才也提到啦 大家對你最大的質疑大概就是說你這一次好像你被提名大法官你是被引用的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
704.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
729.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
司法院主治法第4條的第1項第6款的研究法學富有政治經驗生育卓著者所以他們在這裡泼髒水先讓你這個生育卓著的部分先讓你受傷接下來他們在這個研究法學這個部分是沒什麼疑義啦但是他們會在這裡說啊你的法學素養不夠啊指引你的法學素養等等那最後他們就說啊你這個是政治人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
730.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
759.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這是因為你這個政治證明但是事實上我們來看國外的例子國外其實像美國許多著名的美國的憲法解釋最著名的憲法解釋他們做出這個憲法解釋的大法官事實上都是政治人物出身的最出名的有關這個反對這個隔離而平等對種族隔離這個解釋為違反美國憲法的最出最出名的這個Earl Warren華倫大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
760.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
789.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
他就是他在擔任大法官之前他就是加州州長他就是政治人物出身的所以政治我覺得為什麼我們在這個司法院組織法會有這一條就是因為我們在大法官會議的解釋的過程中他需要有各種不同領域的專業有的是民法專業有的是訴訟法的專業有的是刑事方面的專業有的是憲法方面的專業有的甚至姚教授你代表的就是憲法方面的專業以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
790.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
819.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
實務的政治經驗我覺得這個部分我認為說我們是我個人是支持這樣子的提名當然這個因為姚教授這一段時間似乎出現的都出現在政治新聞上面因此你的政治色彩看起來就特別的強烈讓大家都忘了都忘了說你其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
820.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
848.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
法律學者出身的也是法律學者出身的以我的了解這個老教授事實上在德國您接受的是著名的德國的大法官這個這個Green教授的指導你的博士論文也是這個指導那Green教授他在過去他在這個這個在德國的也擔任過大法官那也這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
850.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
878.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
也算也是在憲法方面是生育卓著那這個部分齁這個我想要了解就是說在你過去所接受的這個學術訓練讓你回國之後當然你也都曾經在中山大學在這個文化大學執教過但是大家對於你的這個法律方面的這些你在憲法方面你你專研憲法的哪一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
878.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
898.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
在德國叫做國家學國家學包含最重要其實簡單講叫做組織片一般的法律人比較在學校也好在事務上不會接觸的叫做權力分立的基本原則行政權的內涵政黨與憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
901.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
916.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
選舉的基本原則等等等等的這些都不是傳統法律學的內容組織片本身在這一大塊的憲法領域裡面的解釋方法跟人權的解釋方法又有大有不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
918.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
933.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以克林在指導我的博士的時候特別提到所以他為什麼叫我去學哲學也叫我去社會學社會學我的老師是被認為歐洲的三個大師之一叫盧曼尼克勞斯盧曼 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
934.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
960.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
一個法律學者為什麼要去學社會學而且要進入到我跟著他曾經進入到德國的政黨的活動之中我才理解原來憲法的解釋不是一個憑空解釋條文的概念而是它是一個動態的隨著政治的變化是一個動態的內容我這樣聽起來你的這個專業你在於這個憲法方面的這個尤其是現在目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
961.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
985.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
因為這個朝野這個政治朝小野霸這樣子的局勢之下臺灣特殊的一個憲政體制之下目前有關權力分立相關之間的這些理論好像這是你的專業不是嗎?是不是?對啊沒錯我順便舉個例子嘛每個人都說行政跟立法有監督跟制衡可是我請教一下內閣制 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
987.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
987.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我剩下差不多3分鐘的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
1012.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1039.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
你個人對於因為這個你接下來如果你現在接受的提名是司法院的副院長你個人對於司法院副院長這個角色的扮演這是第一個問題你希望你在接下來3分鐘裡面回答第二個就是因為我們目前臺灣目前的制度我們的修憲非常非常的困難但是我們現在整個社會的變化整個政治這些相關的權力分立之間發生的這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1041.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1069.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
他因為修憲的困難使得憲法的解釋變得特別格外的重要這部分這兩個問題是不是能夠請你在剩下的三分鐘內回答我先回答第一個問題修憲條文我個人認為有違憲之嫌因為他前半段在立法院三分之四分之三等等的都還可以可能達成可是在後半段有關公民覆決那一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1071.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1088.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
在實務上幾乎是不可行所以我認為已經侵害了國民主權人民修憲的權利所以修憲條文有沒有可能違憲這需要寫一大篇因為這涉及到國民主權的解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1089.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1113.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以在修憲條文沒有辦法在宣告違憲有另外的設計之前大法官為了因應社會的變化的快速他又不能修憲他就必須要透過憲法解釋來適應這個變化這就是我說的因為修憲的困難使得憲法解釋變得格外的重要沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1115.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1141.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以這一方面尤其在組織片因為這個各種政治運作的可能性所以我強調憲法法庭不是單純的司法官他也是憲政機構因為他會被動的介入到權力之間的爭議所以他也成為分配權力的一份子在這種情況之下當然司法的積極性為了要彌補修憲的困難以及司法的自治 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1144.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1168.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那個概念特別要維持平衡免得讓人覺得大法官取代了立法權司法修憲權一樣的他這個解釋的一個平衡變得非常非常重要最重要的目的是讓憲法的核心的價值也就是立法權與行政權的互動的所要保護的那個內涵要能夠落實透過憲法解釋落實出來這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1171.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1171.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個我算是最後30秒了我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1195.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1201.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
今天姚教授在這邊提名在這邊接受這些立法委員大家對您的這些指教跟詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1203.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1227.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我想在我看來齁這個不但不是酬庸啦其實是一個承擔啦是一個承擔因為未來大法官所扮演的角色其實非常的吃重那您要在這裡再接受我們這些立法委員這樣子的的拷問齁在我看這個也不是酬庸啦齁所以我希望說如果真的能夠有機會順利我希望你能夠為為台灣的司法好謝謝沈委員謝謝貝迪銘 |