| video_url |
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| 委員名稱 |
邱議瑩 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:42:09 - 15:03:03 |
| 影片長度 |
1254 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名張文貞、姚立明、何賴傑、陳運財、王碧芳、廖福特、劉靜怡7位為司法院大法官，並以張文貞為院長、姚立明為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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謝謝主席副院長我是不是請一下姚立明先生請姚備提名人說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
43.13 |
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姚老師我可以這樣稱呼您嗎?可以我想今天有這樣的一個機會參與司法院副院長的這樣的一個審查姚老師我想請教一下您喜歡棒球嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
44.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
62.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
你喜歡棒球嗎?你喜歡?所以我剛剛看到了您的口頭報告跟您自己的這個說明,這個書面的說明我發現你應該是一個喜歡直球對決的人,是不是這樣?你應該是喜歡直球對決嗎?來,老師我這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
64.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
88.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
在總統府的網站上面這個列了您的簡歷跟自傳那我看到總統府特別也提到了姚老師您被提名有一個比較重要的除了您致力研究憲法法學以外積極參與政治活動也是您被提名的一個重要因素之一那您的積極參與政治活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
91.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
115.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
也成為了您在這一次的審查過程裡頭被外界提出來討論的地方我大概稍微簡單的整理了一下姚老師您的過去的經歷從1986年您在學校任教1996年開始您擔任了立法委員這個時候您的政黨是新黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
117.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
134.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
2000年您回到學校任教2006年你擔任了百萬人民導扁運動總部的副總指揮到2007年你被紅黨也就是臺灣人權聯盟列在不分區立委的名單2012年開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
137.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
164.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
您的政黨態度似乎有一點轉換2012年您支持小英來參選總統並擔任小英教育基金會的董事2014年您去支持了柯文哲先生競選台北市長到了2023年您出任賴清德先生的競選總部主任委員這樣的資料整理沒有錯吧?沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
165.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
194.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
老師您剛剛有在你最後有特別講很多人看到你的這個政治的從政經歷認為你是變色龍有人是這樣說有人認為你從新黨然後到紅黨或者是到了民進黨這個中間的過程轉換我其實不想用變色龍來形容你但是您剛剛有講到您是忠於你自己的專業忠於您自己的良心 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
196.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
197.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
容我用最簡單的台灣政治最大的兩岸關係來說好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
221.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
247.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我第一次當選立法委員大概是唯一中華民國一次國家特別公佈了一個行政命令那個時候連站做行政院院長不讓當選的新黨的立法委員請假也就是一般所謂的戒掉也就是我必須要離開學術界否則我根本不會離開學術界當時我受王健宣邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
249.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
250.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
新黨當時我記得非常清楚標誌的就有反共 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
279.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
308.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
等等等等反台獨等等的一些標誌非常清楚保衛中華民國如果各位記得的話在李登輝先生後來我就沒有回到學校的一段時間後來因為人家邀請我到文化大學在任教我就說明我那個時候就開始進入公共事務不是我個人願意是國家當年唯一的一次一個學者像現在我相信很多學者做立法委員做完了還可以回到學校我當時不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
310.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
337.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以我就參與了可是如果各位想一想我如果舉一個例子國民黨的有些政治人物在李登輝講兩國論的時候替兩國論來辯論直到今天講到九二共識的時候替講到九二共識來辯論我個人認為我不會這樣做因為當時我離開新黨很重要的原因如果新黨還記得我提出了一個一中兩國理論 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
340.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
354.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這兩個國家的理論的概念非常簡單就是中華民國我們沒有一個人能否認重點是我們承不承認中華人民共和國等李登輝廢除了臨時條款以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
355.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
356.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我認為兩邊是一個兩國關係我從來沒變 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
372.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
386.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以我當然後來因為新黨不支持我這個主張甚至於連辯論都不能辯論因為那個過程很複雜我想有很多人可以證實我就離開了這就是我到今天為止我沒有改變過 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
387.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
403.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以到今天為止您心中認定的是中華民國沒有錯我認為中華民國沒有人可以否認嘛所以你沒有所謂變色的問題沒有問題啊因為中華民國在你的心裡是一個中心思想沒有錯中華人除非你認為中華民國是個叛亂團體你才是一個中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
407.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
427.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
只要認為中華民國因為中華民國不是我們討論的對象因為我們是人民只有中華人民共和國是什麼才是一個我們要面對的憲法問題它要不然就是叛亂團體要不然它就是一個被我們接受的國家承認的國家所以當然是兩個國家這我從此以後從來沒有改變這個論述 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
429.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
438.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
後來參與所有的團體我大概這個論述都是我的基礎也就是我一再強調所謂的兩國不是針對中華民國來討論因為中華民國沒有人可以討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
439.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
439.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
好﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
461.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
487.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個姚老師我想您的這個部分說明得非常清楚那我也更進一步的去了解您從以前到現在的政治傾向講到這個叛亂團體最近大概戒嚴這件事情很多被討論今天是世界人權日也是美麗島事件45週年老師我讓您看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
489.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
512.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
國民黨戒嚴38年那在上個禮拜五有國民黨的委員說當初的戒嚴是為了要保護台灣我當然不同意這樣的一個論述我也不知道老師您同不同意這樣的一個論述但是您過去參與這麼多的人權運動甚至您曾經代表台灣人權聯盟要擔任立法委員這個是1952年 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
515.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
537.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
周清蓮的案子當時蔣介石並不滿意這樣的判決大筆一揮就把它改為死刑這個是徐慧芝的匪諜案蔣介石對於徐慧芝被從5年改判10年非常的不滿意所以直接批示應即槍決可也 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
539.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
557.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
依據行政院促轉正義委員會的統計戒嚴時期蔣介石介入了判決大概有4101次有259人因為蔣介石的介入而改判死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
559.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
570.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
當時是沒有人權的當時是在戒嚴時期所以當時的蔣介石盼你生你就生盼你死你就死這是完全沒有人權可言的到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
572.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
591.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們在談人權在談國安在談共諜老師您剛剛講了很多跟中華人民共和國您的不認同的地方我想進一步請教您就法律上來說到底國家安全哪一個輕哪一個重 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
594.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
618.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個呢都是最近幾次的新聞我們的前金房部的參謀長因為貪了部隊7900多塊的洗衣機被重判12年二審改判6年8個月這一位韓玉萍少將因為把國防部的加菜金拿去驗請軍券被判貪污罪4年4個月後來經過小英總統特赦 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
624.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
635.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個是我們稍微整理一下臺灣這幾年來﹐跟間諜案有關的判刑狀況﹐包括邊棚這個中將的共諜案﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
636.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
662.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
他有主觀的犯意他的犯罪組織網也都建構了但是他只被輕判了6個月右邊這一張圖可以整理了更多最近幾年間諜案的判刑狀況老師我知道您長期研究法律就您看這樣子的一個法律判決貪7900多塊的洗衣機要被判6年 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
664.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
670.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這當然也涉及到我們的立法是不是要針對兩岸有關的一些行為做一些整體的規範我必須承認 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
690.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
713.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
對於我很晚的時間我才對於臺灣戒嚴時間的不公正因為我自己的生長背景我從來沒有認識到228我甚至於不知道林義雄家裡的慘案也是228直到紅山軍我因為演講的關係被施明德邀請參與他的一個小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
715.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
743.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
慢慢的我才了解到過去的許許多多的故事所以我有差不多有三年的時間我很專心的在檔案局就像你剛才所印的有一些資料我非常仔細的去尋找有關過去那幾十年的戒嚴跟動人開亂時期的一些故事我才慢慢自己學習到過去因為我自己沒有體會過 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
744.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
753.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這在新黨期間我從來沒有認識到這段故事也因為那段我就知道政府政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
754.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
782.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
如果錯誤的措施是可以傷害非常大的人民包括我曾接觸到一個韓信的一個校官他只是因為家裡頭跟他的同僚吃飯說反攻大陸根本機會不大他就被判因為叛亂罪而死他的媽媽甚至於改姓不讓他女兒知道他跟這個父親有關我們聯絡到這位女兒以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
784.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
811.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我自己深深的感受到原來社會因為不公不義的判決所影響可以是一個家庭或一個人的一生所以我對於剛才你所說的這些我當然覺得我們也許應該在一個民主法治時代要認真的思考各種不同的傷害國家安全也好傷害個人也好不同的罪責 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
813.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
840.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
他有一個社會的基本價值的反應來保障我們憲法所需要保障的各種權利這一點我當然不能夠具體的太詳細的說明我的建議曾經有一個律師好像連司法律師他說法官普遍缺乏國安意識您同意這句話嗎如果就我剛剛舉的這些例子來說曾經有幾位律師他們認為法官普遍缺乏國安意識 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
841.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
865.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
所以就您在司法改革上面來看是不是我們應該要在對於法官的國安意識這一方面去做一些加強呢?這一點我不敢下結論太快下結論我真的不敢因為我的確接觸這種判決或理解法官現在的理解可是我非常清楚知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
867.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
892.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
現法對於國家忠誠義務有不同層次的保護我舉軍人為例軍人的生命權保護跟我們不一樣軍人可以受命令喪失他的生命權尤其在戰時他的生命權的界限跟我們是不同保護界限不同因此對於軍人就有特權給予他特別的待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
893.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
919.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
因為他的生命權的限制在各種層次是不同的同樣的道理你剛特別提到對於國家安全我們國內有非常多的公務人員不管是勤制人員不管是工人都有忠誠義務我覺得相信的忠誠義務是有不同層次的也許基於這些不同層次法律應該做不同的規範做不同的層次這一點也許可以給 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
920.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
934.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以姚老師我覺得我們過去在談很多的所謂的司法改革我們剛剛講到對於國安的層次其實他是有很多不同層級的判決吧那我們剛剛舉的這一些例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
936.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
955.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
這個貪小便宜重判危害到國家安全侵犯這很顯然罪責不相當啊我覺得如果未來您有機會擔任司法院的副院長我想在司法改革的這一塊是不是應該要持續來做努力您同意我的看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
957.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
983.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
呃當然司法改革這塊是一個大塊還有幾十項都還在進行中這個我們把它我的簡報上面把它羅列我們現在還有十項嘛小英總統推動司法改革到現在也將近十年的時間但我相信其實還有很長一條路要走那這個應該也要列為您未來如果有機會擔任司法院副院長的時候司法改革這一塊也是您的一個重要的責任之一吧應該是的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
985.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1006.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那再談到大法官的職權這個姚老師我們知道現在憲法訴訟法在立法院或者是在全國引起非常多的討論那國民黨的翁曉琳委員也提出了憲法訴訟法的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1007.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1029.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
老實講這個總統府在8月底的時候就送出了大法官的這一些提名人的資料正常來說立法院應該在10月份10月底以前就要完成這些審查到現在12月了我們還在進行這個審查的過程所以現在的大法官是有不足的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1030.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1032.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
楊老師我想請教您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1057.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1080.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
現法訴訟法如果修正．把大法官現有總額．定義為憲法增修條文所定的總額15個人．可能會造成憲法法庭．經常因為沒有辦法湊足人數．而無法做成判決當然一定會扭曲．一定會扭曲憲法法庭．作為憲政機關的憲法設計．最危險的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1083.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1107.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
最危險的是因為人數不足沒有辦法釋憲傷害最大的會是人民的釋憲權因為現在大法官的案件90%以上都人民申請的如果不能開會解釋違憲審查對於人民的憲法權力保護是一個傷害更何況我如果講的極端一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1108.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1135.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
其實沒有憲法法院的經常性的審查權力最大的不是立法院是行政跟總統因為行政機關擁有最大的資源跟權力他如果我舉例來講立法院通過了法律總統根本不公佈行政院也不執行立法院如果沒有違憲審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1140.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1164.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
誰來遏止行政機關對立法機關的濫權所以不只是立法院我希望當然我不能針對貴院的立法討論的內容可是我必須要提醒削弱憲法法庭的功能不是有利於立法院淩駕於行政權剛好相反 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1165.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1174.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
所以姚老師您講到的一個重點這個修法很顯然就是要削弱憲法法庭那對於您個人的部分因為我現在時間只剩下43秒對於您個人的部分您覺得現在大家一直猛烈的攻擊啦您覺得您過關的可能性如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1195.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1200.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
當然會可是我不是因為我個人我用詩篇因為當時我為什麼接受因為我完全清楚我所面對的通過了機率其實是很小的我當然心知肚明 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1222.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1230.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
可是當時我自己讀聖經的時候 詩篇第11篇第1節給我一句話信考一你為什麼要叫他躲到林子裡面的背景是一個大胃王有人要逃到樹林裡去所以我因為這一句話我覺得既然我自己是解釋現場的專業我也願意接受不管結果如何盡心盡力 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1252.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1253.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
好,謝謝邱委員、謝謝貝廷銘 |
| IVOD_ID |
158075 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158075 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-10 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-10T14:42:09+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-10T15:03:03+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |