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| 委員名稱 |
吳宗憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:18:48 - 14:33:30 |
| 影片長度 |
882 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查
（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。
（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
二、併案審查
（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。） |
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吳宗憲委員請吳委員我們麻煩部長來請部長 |
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委員好謝謝部長我想我們今天主題是年金改革的問題嘛那其實在2017年的時候那個時候做年金的改革但其實當年啊你看說國家沒錢需要做這樣的改革可是那時候那一年其實我們還弄了一個一兆元的那個前瞻基礎建設計畫嘛所以 |
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三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 |
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改革的一些想法改革的那個修法建議那辦公我們辦公室也接到很多的電話當然有人支持有人反對啦都有但這是一個公共的議題我覺得本來就值得拿出來討論那其實這段時間啊你想啦其實合理的改革本來就沒有問題大家都支持但是有時候我們去想一個人他如果一輩子為國家奉獻很久像部長你也是公務員出身我也是公務員出身 |
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100.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
當年我們在選擇從事公務員這個職業的時候其實我們本來就有就已經很清楚就是公務員他在任的時候他其實沒有一個很好的薪水所得但是我們希望的就是在退休之後有一個很穩定的生活這是很多當年選擇公務員的人的都有這個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
101.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
120.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
但是呢國家如果這樣變動之後是不是其實會變成是相當於是一個來自於政府的不人道的突襲就會讓很多人就是他會覺得很慌亂怎麼生活一下受到影響再來就是當初2017年為了推這個東西其實他造成了很多族群的對立階級的對立 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
121.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
138.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
然後又因為這個這樣子他為了當時的執政黨他為了用力去宣傳所以也同時重傷了公務員的形象然後但是政府也背負了人民覺得說你怎麼這麼不守信用我想如果說今天是一個私部門發生這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
139.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
147.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
162.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
170.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
188.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
212.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那如果說今天公務員在入職的時候他就知道將來會有這個狀況發生我覺得這又還好就像現在新的公務員他入職他就知道以後以後的問題嘛他當然他就你要選擇那你就要承受可是很多的公務員尤其現在退休中的公務員麻煩安靜一點退休中的公務員不好意思可以小聲一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
213.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
241.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
退休的公務員他們等於是在毫無防備之下就必須面臨這個問題啦然後我們又回過頭來看政府當時告訴我們是說錢不夠可是呢我們看了一下2022年超收將近五千億然後還要發六千元的現金回去然後2023年他又超收超增3671億然後今年也預估是四千億那在這個情況下如果我們再跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
242.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
248.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案件中﹚立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
267.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
295.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那甚至我們是不是應該去思考像勞保條例65條之四像我們現在對於公務員的部分他是4年檢討一次可是我們可不可以仿照一下像勞保條例他如果在CPI他是超過2的變動的時候那就要去適時的調整我想說這個可能請考試院這邊也思考一下好不好因為他不是沒有可以對照是勞保條例本來就有這個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
295.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
296.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
312.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
338.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
前勞動部長何沛山有說撫卹也是一種勞保年金改革的方式那我想說撫卹是不是也是公保年金改革破產的一個方式各位委員報告其實我們公保在88年重新做一個改革的時候以前就是說不足的部分就是政府完全分年做這個提撫 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
339.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
367.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那我手上的資料是這樣就是當然啦就是確實有撥補過兩次啦像114年有編列194億然後113年100億但是呢這個撥補都這兩年的撥補的數額都不到一年的差額啦就是他他補進去但是他離需求還是差距很遠嘛我想說我不否定有撥補但是呢確實這個數字是有一個很大的差別啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
367.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
382.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
然後退撫基因現在又面臨到沒有新人提撥缺口而且還有原本的虧損壓力他等於是雙重的壓力進來那所以我想說這個部分差額的部分你們有思考要怎麼處理嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
383.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
385.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
410.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
426.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
436.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
441.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
456.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
470.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那個委員在質詢的時候是不是可以麻煩參與會議的同仁把你的音量降低讓委員的質詢不會被中斷不好意思吳委員請比較不好意思是可能謝謝要麻煩各位因為思緒會中斷謝謝那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
473.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
474.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
三（委員張智倫等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
501.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
507.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案． |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
530.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
554.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我講很簡單的例子我自己有律師資格那當年我也在思考說我要不要去律師事務所上班去我爸爸的事務所上班但是我後來選擇一個薪水相對低很多的司法官其實我希望的就是在退休後有一個比較穩定的生活所以我當時選擇比較辛苦而且薪水比較低的工作因為我希望有好的退休生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
555.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
582.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
可是呢如果說等到我在前面已經辛苦了一輩子了到最後退休的時候你卻告訴我說以前我給你的承諾都不算你剩下只能再拿六成我這不管是什麼理由也許我都很難接受我要這邊跟部長報告這個問題所以我講一個很簡單的例子就是任何人在選擇職業的時候如果這客觀的條件晉升條件什麼都相同的情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
584.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
610.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
一個工作是薪水低但是有完善的退休制度另外一個工作是薪水高但是沒有一個完善的退休制度我們在選擇的時候我們就會去加以選擇說到底我比較喜歡我傾向是哪一個工作那像我的個性我喜歡有一個穩定的退休生活所以我會選擇一個薪水低可是退休制度完善的可是呢如果到最後突然變成跟我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
612.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
634.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
641.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
645.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
656.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
683.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這是說如果今天國家真的財政出狀況我相信這些退休公務員都能夠共體時間但是我剛剛有講到了連續很多年他超徵都超過幾千億那在這個情況下會讓很多人覺得今天你明明超收那麼多錢甚至還要還錢給人民了但是你卻告訴我你沒有錢去付給我當年承諾過我的退休金然後我現在退休了我要去打第二份工也不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
683.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
707.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我今天生活真的會受影響所以我還是覺得政府必須要是值得信賴而且說話算話的人這個公共議題討論上面我覺得還是一個除了公益需要思考之外信賴保護也需要思考甚至國家對於公務員退休後的照顧因為國家是公務員的老闆退休後的照顧足不足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
708.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
710.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
730.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
748.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
稍後目的有人猜說是為了階級對立事對選票有幫助那我們先不講那個負面的我們光從說如果政府的錢不夠希望改革但是這個也沒話說但是當政府錢多到需要再退還去給人民的時候你卻告訴我說錢不夠我如果再改回來會破產 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
750.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
771.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那這樣有一些人真的會聽不下去部長你們能夠說一些想法因為我蠻尊敬您的你也知道我們日常的相處我非常尊敬您你知道我謝謝委員給我這個機會的一個說明我想除了財政的議題以外我覺得我可以提供委員另外一個為什麼當初要做年金改革的思考方式因為當初的制度的設計下退休的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
773.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
800.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
每個月的月所得大概就限職人員的可能在八成到九成以上甚至有的超過限職人員那當然整體上來講這顯然是沒有一個任何政府或公司不會這樣做所以其實這是一個啟動一定要變革的方式所以就設定了所得替代率往下降那60%我再次講60%是一個明目所得但是因為我們透過法律的計算基礎那60%換算起來差不多是70% |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
804.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
819.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
實質上是70%即使降到118年我只是說委員謝謝你給我這個機會願意聽我跟你做這樣一個解釋我覺得有些事情吧為什麼一定要做這個事情這個事情最終的結果當然對財務有幫忙可是它還有另外一層的意義是在那個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
820.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
843.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那謝部長的說明齁但是我的立場還是這樣對財務有幫忙但是我必須說這超收了那麼多年稅金超徵那麼多年都幾千億這是第一個財務國家財務需求的部分但是第二個要考量到的還是信賴保護啦當年你告訴他可以這樣但是今天到後來你跟我說不對啊我當年的計算會造成什麼什麼什麼那 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
846.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
867.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個東西這些年邁的人他們沒有辦法接受的因為當初你告訴我是這樣嘛就你今天他的邏輯你你說話是不算話所以這部分是我提出我的想法啦然後就除了說國家其實稅收上面是沒有問題所以側翼不可以拿來說走回頭路或國家會破產這種話我覺得這是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
870.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
877.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
但對公務員的照顧還是要國家說話還是要算話。好,那部長那就謝謝你今天的說明。 |
| IVOD_ID |
157907 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157907 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-36-18 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-05T14:18:48+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-05T14:33:30+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |