| IVOD_ID |
15788 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15788 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-03 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2024032914 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
「啟動國會改革─立法院職權行使法相關法案」公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-03T08:31:06+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-03T12:54:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:22:54 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcbb5d33df7eda7d07ea093030673645f93be8d109af184be4e6ad185a46f58c3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「啟動國會改革─立法院職權行使法相關法案」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:06 - 12:54:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1893.816 |
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1908.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
我們現在開始開會今天舉行啟動國會改革立法院職權行使法相關法案公聽會我們先介紹與會者首先介紹出席學者專家按照簽到的順序介紹 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1911.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1935.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
第一位 陽明交通大學科技法律學院陳志雄院長第二位 國立陽明交通大學法律學院林志傑教授第三位 佛光大學公共事務學系彭瑞仁助理教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1940.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1963.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
好因為今天是這樣就是高鐵捷運他都有一段時間都停駛嘛所以有一些人他沒有辦法趕過來那待會他們會陸續到那我們今天我想說不耽誤這個時間我們就盡量我們趕快讓這個公聽會開始那再來我們介紹到場的委員 牛許廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1966.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1991.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
接著我們介紹列席的機關代表立法院副秘書長 張玉榮總統府第一局專門委員 蘇俊卿司法院行政訴訟及懲戒聽聽長 陳依儀行政院法規會主委 沈淑飛綜合業務處處長 彭少博 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1996.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2003.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
考試院保訓重規處處長 龔奎毅監察院監察調查處處長 楊昌憲監察業務處處長 王貞華關鍵審計議題發展委員會執行秘書 林聖賢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2021.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2045.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
內政部合作及人民團體司專門委員 葉昭宏外交部條約法律司參事 蘇瑞仁國防部法律事務司法暨調查處處長 王振宜法務部檢察司司長 郭永發參事 廖江憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2049.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2073.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處專門委員賴佳陽中央選舉委員會人事事主任楊志傑公民交易委員會法律事務處專門委員齊雪莉回家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處專門委員蔡信儀個人資料保護委員會籌備處法治事務組組長林育嘉 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2080.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2087.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
最高檢察署主任 檢察官李文忠不讓黨產處理委員會專任委員徐有為現在我們先請議事人員宣讀公聽會的討論提綱 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2099.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2121.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
討論提綱一、總統赴立法院國情報告是否應與常態化立法委員就總統國情報告有不明瞭處提出問題之模式為何其他各國案例二、立法院行使人事同意權時是否得針對人事案之審查召開聽證會並邀集各界人事協助參與審查倘被提名人受審查時 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2122.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2149.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
有虛偽不實陳述之情形是否應與裁罰立法院之備詢人若有拒絕答覆、拒不提供資料、做虛偽不實陳述、答非所問甚至無故缺席等情形如何完善立法虛偽作證或藐視國會等形式、責任等事項國會行使調查權的正當性及尚待法制化之處行使國會調查權之範圍及界限與基本人權保障如何兼顧宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2157.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2159.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主要是就這個長期的爭執以一個公聽會的方式來諮詢各界的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2182.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2188.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
其實這個問題大概我覺得我自己再往前面去找一些相關的資料可能已經討論超過20年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2191.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2216.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那因為這次 其實法案我們在修正上面其實沒有說一定要說召開公聽會但是我們覺得還是審慎為之所以也順應一些不同黨派大家的想法所以今天召開這個公聽會那也請各位專家各位學者在這邊能夠把自己所了解的暢所欲言的來跟大家一起分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2220.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2233.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
今天早上遇到地震的狀況目前只有三位委員到場接下來幾位會陸續到我們在這邊也是蠻謝謝各位在今天早上交通不便的時候還能夠到這裡來 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2236.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2237.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2252.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2267.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
按照登記先後順序發言如果陸續到場本會會穿插請委員發言最後再請政府機關代表發言針對學者專家及委員的意見加以回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2270.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2293.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
請與會者請至發言台發言在主席的右手邊這邊是專家學者跟練習機關代表的發言台那左邊是我們委員的發言台由於公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家的意見所以每一位學者專家發言的時間是8分鐘因為我們今天只有排上午所以發言時間是8分鐘那本院委員發言的時間是5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2296.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2298.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
主席 召集委員 各位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2322.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2351.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
各位先進那各位部會代表大家早安那立委職權的健全當然過往在各黨都曾經先後提出各種的修正版本那麼當然這是一個重要的議題那麼我們其實在談這些考案的時候其實有個感觸就是當初呢這個孫中山創造這個那個時候提倡五權憲法如果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2352.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2370.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
沒有監察權的存在那麼我們今天對於這個國會的像是包括他的這個調查權等等其實都會有很不一樣的見解所以我們其實是必須要去把五權憲法的架構裡面呢要來的理解對立法院的權職職權先要做一個這個理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2376.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2392.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
民主國家 國會改革當然有它的必要性它可以健全國會的功能強化立法的監督跟立法的品質但是它其實有一個重要的重點其實是國會的自律規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2393.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2414.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以其實在先進國家裡面他們對於就是因為當你調查了一些重要的機密的這個資訊那麼這些資訊會不會被在外進一步的外洩這需要取決於國會相當的自律另外相當於是利益衝突的問題這些都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2414.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2423.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
在各個國家裡面所存在的 比方說在美國很知名的這個麥卡錫的這個主義各位如果去年看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2424.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2445.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
澳門海默的電影就會看到當時就是為了要認為少數的人可能具有跟共產黨有一些相關的一些往來因此他就是針對科學家來開刀這是一個調查權會可能遇到的一個很典型的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2446.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2458.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
在英國跟澳洲都有發生過針對新聞媒體、針對銀行業這些調查事實上當然引起民眾不同意見的差異今天所談到的國會諮詢及及時問答 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2465.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2491.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
當然就是說這是一個總統跟國會進行溝通的一種方式但是我們在我們架構底下憲法增修條文裡面它其實提到的是在每年集會的時候可以聽取總統的國情報告但是並沒有總統應該要進行國情報告的規範所以在這個情況底下如果去規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2492.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2515.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
就是說去要求總統必須要來進行國情諮詢而且必須要去進行質詢類似像質詢一樣的即時問答的時候在各國的其實並沒有這樣的一種先例不過真正的議題是在於說如果你在平常的時候的質詢沒有辦法達到目的的話為什麼一年一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2516.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2542.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
一年一次的執行到底能夠達到什麼樣的功能我想這個是這個制度裏面這個法案這個propose裏面所真正需要回答的問題接下來我想這次的重點是關於立院的調查權的問題我們當然認為立院調查權對於去提升政府的透明度跟政府的問責性這是重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2544.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2569.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
但是它有一些憲法界限基於權力分立跟正當法律程序等等的要求那麼在釋字585號裡面它雖然說是一個法律的依據但是其實那個憲法的這套解釋裡面大部分的內容其實都在談的是到底這個調查權的界限範圍到底在哪裡那麼它提到說不能夠違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2570.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2581.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
權力分立與治和原則也不能侵害其他憲法機關的權力核心範圍以及不能對其他憲法機關的權力行使造成實質上的妨害 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2583.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2602.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以包括他的凡是國家獨立可以做的事情 比方說國會 比方說行政院院長他任命行政首長 這個權限如果他可以是獨立任命的 那麼他可能就會不再受到立院調查的範圍之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2604.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2618.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那另外呢對於行政權特有的行政特權如果這些資訊的這種揭露可能會干預或影響行政部門有效運作的話也會有這樣的限制那如果有爭議的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2619.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2633.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
應該是透過雙方機關的協商或者是由司法機關來協商處理這個是都是在這號解釋裡面很明白的已經有說明的那麼另外可以調查的資訊的範圍這調查資訊範圍其實這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2637.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2665.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個585號條其實重點反而是在談的是說許多的法律已經保障可以不予揭露的資訊事實上是可以不予提供事實上它在這個條文裡面事實上是否定原初的一些爭調會裡面的一些的這個草案所以像部分草案裡面提到說因為國防外交而且還要經過立法院院長認可之外都不得拒絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2666.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2675.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個在構成要件上面可能會從這號解釋裡面看來恐怕有實質上的違反第三個接下來談的是關於虛偽陳述我想這個一些國家都有藐視法庭的這個藐視國會的規定藐視國會規定我們當然予以尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2695.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2720.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
但是但是構成要件上面的部分的草案有需要去商榷的地方虛偽陳述到底他是故意還是過失那麼到底他誰來認定什麼是不實那麼我所看到的理解他應該是要經過正當法律程序而且必須是由法院來加以這樣認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2724.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2742.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
在釋字585號裡面,他其實說的是什麼呢?他說你要去對於調閱權等等的可以對違反協助調查義務的話在什麼呢?在科處罰款的範圍之內予以合理的強制手段所以他要求提出的手段是加以罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2745.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2750.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
有提到有虛偽陳述與處罰違反明確性原則基本上這個規定是希望要求是由檢察機關來去追溯由法院來去進行懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2764.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2786.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
美國國會藐視國會罪的部分草案提到是由法院直接進行行政法懷這個可能會導致等於是法院求員兼裁判恐怕並不是一個很適合的方式那最後一張其實在這個草案裡面有一個部分提到有些部分要採取記名表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2789.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2817.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
當然我們知道說濟民表決本身就是說在某些事項上面重大事項上面在各國的做法上有一定的例子但是這也涉及到說到底政黨的政治到底是柔性的政黨政治還是剛性的政黨政治最後就是說關於調查權的部分請參考關於司法制度的界限謝謝 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2821.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2841.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
好 謝謝那我們現在先補充介紹陸續到場的委員謝龍介委員黃國昌委員羅志強委員吳思堯委員接下來我們請第二位林志傑教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2851.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2851.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
國會改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2868.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2870.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
林志傑 國立陽明交通大學副理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2884.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2912.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
以及藐視國會罪來發表以下的意見首先第一個在立法院處理這個議案跟草案的同時我們必須要首先去看憲法上的正當性立法院一般的調查權不外乎兩種調查第一種是基於立法必要性的調查第二個是基於個案性同樣也是為了行使立法院職權包括預算的審議還有包括個案的質詢上面的一個調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2913.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2915.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
立法院職權行使法要處理調查權最重要的兩個核心 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2927.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2952.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
簡單來講,立法院的職權行使法如果要擴大必須要恪守於憲法的權力分類不得僭越或者是侵害到監察院或者是行政特權的前線和先序名第二個,如果我們按照大法官曾經多次關於立法院的調查權來做的解釋我們可以看釋字585號的解釋他說,調查權行使的方式並不以要求有關機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2953.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2974.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
就立法院行使職權所涉及事項提供參考資料違憲必要時可以經過院會決議要求調查相關事項的人民或政府人員陳述證言或表示意見在違反協助調查義務時可以在科處罰還的範圍內給予合理的一個手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2977.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2988.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以簡單講大法官有講所謂的調查權並不限於只有調閱文件你是可以請政府人員還有一般的民眾來陳述意見所以他有講這是允許的但是他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2994.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3001.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這個內容必須要符合正當的法律程序而且對於違反義務的人只能在罰還的範圍內來對他做一個合理的強制所以必須是在罰還的範圍內也就是行政裁罰而且跟金錢有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3014.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3035.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
如果按照大法官釋字585號解釋顯然今天我們可以看到藐視國會罪的正當性我們是要打上一個問號的因為它是一個入罪化的規範試想今天一個有犯罪嫌疑的被告他可能是殺人犯的被告發人犯的犯罪嫌疑人我們傳喚他不來 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3037.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3056.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
都不會直接就認為他藐視司法那請問今天沒有犯罪嫌疑的一般人民那麼如何的因為你傳喚他不來你就直接認為可以把他扣上藐視國會罪的一個罪嫌 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3056.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3078.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
同理即使今天是證人他在司法程序中由於有作證的義務他不來我們也可以命拘提再不來可以刻以罰還但是這些都要符合刑事訴訟強制處分的原理原則跟比例原則如果今天到了國會中 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3079.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3101.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
他並不是有協助調查犯罪嫌疑的證人只是因為你希望他來接受詢問他不出席或者是他拒絕講話立刻就要被刻意藐視國會罪顯然這跟我們一般的正當法律程序以及人民的人身自由是有非常大的影響的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3102.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3124.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
其次如果我們撇掉藐視國會罪直接可以行政罰還可不可以呢按照大法官釋字585號解釋看起來應該是可以的但這個也必須注意他是經由院會的決議目前各版本的草案中多數下放給委員會這個跟585號的解釋顯有不合跟不當的擴張 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3130.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3159.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
更有草案提到要由行政法院科處罰還真是滑天下之大吉請問行政法院如何科處你罰還?行政法院所做的是今天政府對人民處分中是不是有違反法定程序的一個處罰而不是像一般的行事法院科處罰金的概念此處有法律概念的措置一定要導正視聽不容混淆 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3160.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3175.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
最後我們要提到的是這一次的多個草案裡面並不只有自然人大法官釋憲中585他有提到人民然而事實上這一次的草案中包括機關學校醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3176.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3190.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
人民團體基金會企業公司法人這一點要請全國民眾一定要予以注意所以如果這樣的草案通過意思就是立法院可以要求台積電 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3191.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3208.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
張忠謀董事長來接受質詢﹖如果張董事長不來﹖可以對張董事長移送科與藐視國會罪﹖可以要求台積電出示他跟其他國家或企業的企業合作﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3209.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3228.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
或者是技術交流的合約書這種高度涉及半導體的營業秘密甚至企業發展的營業資訊如果今天這樣子的草案通過不但是擾民對我們科技業的發展也會有嚴重的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3228.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3251.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以總之並不是不能有國會的調查權我們作為法律學者也興建國會調查權能夠加以法制化但是綜合上開幾點避免我們的立法變成憲法盲或人權盲的提案首先第一 這個違反的效果絕技不能夠用 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3252.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3270.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
藐視國會罪,因為這個跟大法官585號的解釋一紙不合第二個範圍上除了行政官員要擴及一般人民必須要恪守正當法律程序要給予企業、財團、法人或者是基金會、人民團體、政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3272.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3290.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這個有沒有欲越大法官所授權的權限我們必須要從長計議最後要講的是沒有錯美國是有藐視國會罪的但是美國所有接受詢問的人本身就是證人的身份我國的被告尚且可以保持緘默 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3291.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3306.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我們的被告可以說謊但是在這個藐視國會罪的構成要件草案中連保持緘默跟說謊的權利都沒有嚴重抵觸人民的基本權利不得不查最後要講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3307.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3319.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
一個國會要受到尊重必須要先從自律開始要替別人的鬍子請先替好自己的鬍子立法院的行為法對於違反倫理規範的立法委員處罰非常的軟性美國的參眾議員對於國會議員甚至有可以道歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3328.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3353.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
停權驅逐出國會這樣嚴厲的處罰並成立倫理規範辦公室受理所有國會議員的不當行為如果今天我們希望國會受到尊重也許我們應該先從藐視司法罪先開始其次國會必須要先從自己的行為規範來才會讓贏得社會大眾對於我們立法院的尊重以上說明 謝謝好 謝謝那下一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3359.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3362.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
接下來我們請黃國昌委員先發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3399.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3419.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
謝謝主席非常感謝今天非常多的專家學者到我們的司法法制委員會針對國會改革的法案提出高見我相信各位學者所提供的高見都可以成為我們接下來在審理相關議案的時候重要的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3420.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3441.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
事實上關於國會改革這也不是立法院第一次召開公聽會我們大概回顧過去這十幾年在立法院針對國會改革的倡議從來沒有停止過但是始終沒有完成最核心的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3442.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3457.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我所尊敬的眾議院曲海源老師他在2011年11月的時候其實曾經送給當時的蔡英文主席一本《國會及電視媒體改革建議案》 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3458.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3478.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
邱老師在長期推動整個國會改革的過程當中他也針對綠營的台灣智庫當初在2011年12月的時候所發表的終結亂象國會改革政策白皮書提出非常多的建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3480.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3499.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這個白皮書可以說是集當時綠營重要在關心國會改革的學者包括林哲水包括當時也在參與立法委員選舉的林佳龍他們所共同提出的一個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3500.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3523.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
在這個漫長的整個國會改革的過程當中事實上早期大法官會議的解釋是相對保守的譬如說在4至3月5日之後就有關於限制國會的調查權限於文件的調閱那個時候林卓水先生他就非常一針見血的指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3524.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3541.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
建立聽證調查制度的必要性建立聽證調查制度的必要性那為什麼這件事情重要呢因為文件調閱權的行使只能看不能問成效顯然非常的不彰 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3542.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3559.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我們在看國外不同的中央政府體制從美國的總統制到英國的內閣制到法國的雙首長制德國在中央政府體制上面不同的學者有不同的歸類 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3560.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3581.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
但是這一些民主先進國家國會的調查權沒有一個國家的調查權像我們過去對我們國會的調查權如此的限縮按照過去非常多綠營的學者以及政治人物的批判這個是過去威權、獨裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3584.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3599.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
的幽靈繼續盤旋在我國立法院的上空這是為什麼過去1月10年來這麼多的有事之事包括我們所知道的民進黨的理論大師林佐水 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3600.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3619.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
包括耶魯大學政治學的博士林佳龍現在是我們總統府的秘書長提出過這個具體的主張他們當初是怎麼說的呢他們當初說的是競速訂定有關行使調查聽證的專章落實憲法所賦予國會的調查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3625.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3646.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
而國會調查的事由包括了行政的監督包括了立法的準備包括了政策的形成包括了政府種種的彈劾以及行使人事同意權而立法院職權行使法應該賦予調查委員會一定的職權例如召開聽證會 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3648.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3658.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
例如調閱文件例如傳喚證人例如處罰偽證這些都是集過去十幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3659.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3680.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這麼多有識之士要驅逐在台灣國會上面威權的幽靈要束縛台灣的國會根本不要監督不要行使調查權只要負責出來洗地負責出來護航就可以了這些歷史的文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3681.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3702.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
這一些一針見血的論述讓人非常遺憾的是在2016年的時候蔡英文自己提出要建立國會聽證調查的制度到2024年的今天本院還在討論這個問題整整跳票了8年整整跳票了8年 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3705.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3724.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
更重要的事情是提升人事同意權審查制度的品質我們還要再繼續拖下去嗎我們來複習一下當初民進黨在野的時候痛批馬政府對大法官的提名跟審查根本就是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3725.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3746.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
負責出來護航的把立法院當立法局那個時候所痛批的大法官審查的期日從公佈到投票日數21天那個時候還有民間監督大法官聯盟所有的學者所有的NGO一起出來痛批結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3748.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3776.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
掌握權力以後的民主進步黨一樣把大法官的審查當兒戲就在2023年大法官提名審查的時候從公佈到投票日數22天有沒有進步有進步多了一天但是看在過去參與這麼多民間監督大法官聯盟的團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3778.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3784.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
跟學者眼中這是一個不及格的大法官的審查我們還要放任淪為兒戲把立法院當成立法局這樣的大法官制度的審查嗎也正是因為這個樣子這一次我們所提出來的法案從國會聽證調查制度的建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3807.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3833.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
到強化人事同意權的審查是我們從一開始的時候我們就堅持的主軸我們所提出來的議案一點都不新奇一點也不創新是過去這十幾年來從民進黨在野的時候還有理想性的時候還知道國會不能被閹割的時候早就提出來的倡議法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3835.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3857.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
2012年的時候林佳龍就提了林佳龍就提了當初林佳龍提的時候多少的學者出來站下多少的學者認為國會改革勢在必行結果過了12年原地踏步一事無成蔡英文改革的承諾跳票我們今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3860.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3880.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
在這邊審理有關於國會改革的議案我們必須要對歷史負責對台灣的民主負責絕對不能夠因為換了政黨執政換了位置就換了腦袋因為我們要負責任的是對全體的國民是對我們的下一代謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3906.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3913.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
主席各位委員還有在場各位代表以及學術先進 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3917.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3943.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
其實我們都知道這個民主國家最重要當然權力分立法治國原則這是最基本的那在權力分立之下如何監督行政權必然國會應該有他的調查權才能探尋事實監督行政機關的施政相關政策上的措施或是是否能發掘行政機關在施政上的弊案那這是很基本的權力分立的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3944.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3964.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
但是在權力分立原則之上我們也要了解到還有一個叫做法治國的原則如何透過法治才能讓這些程序能夠順暢依法的運作那我想在座各位先進當然各位機關代表還有各位委員必然也曾經對各國的制度有很多深入的了解跟研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3965.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3980.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
陳茹 陳院長 林智傑老師對於目前國內及國外相關制度的明顯說明我想我在這邊也提出一些呼應其實我本身是留學德國所以我在這邊提出一些德國相關的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3983.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3986.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
Bundestag schafftordnung |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4004.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4029.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
通過議會制定的規則在他的100條到106條制定不同的質詢類型對於議會的質詢行政機關的官員當然我們知道內閣的官員很多也是議員但是不論他是不是議員只要是內閣的官員都必須依法回答議員的質詢而且不能說謊當然他必須據實以告那如何去防止 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4030.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4051.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
官員會說謊甚至官員不願意按照事實回答呢在德國的法治國原則之下必然一定要法律規範那如何法律規範那當然必須由專法來規定德國的國會也就是聯邦眾議院可以設立調查委員會那是國會自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4052.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4073.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
設議嗎當然不是是透過專法來規定由調查委員會職權行使法來規定調查委員會的運作那調查委員會的職權行使法當中很明顯的規定官員如果在質詢的時候不說實話怎麼辦當然官員有沒有責任有但這個責任是不是藐視國會罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4077.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4103.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
這裡問題點就在這不叫藐視國會罪因為德國的刑法當中沒有藐視國會罪那如何去要求這些官員不要藐視國會據實以告呢這個時候調查委員會可以針對這些不據實以告的人員第一個處以行政法一萬歐元第二個可以經由刑事程序拘留 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4104.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4129.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
但特別要強調的是他是透過《刑事訴訟法》的程序對於說謊作偽證不說據實以告的人員處以拘留拘留的時間不得超過一日而拘留之後他必須送往法院由法官進行下一步的審理由法院才能決定他的行為是不是真的有說謊不實 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4130.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4158.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
而符合刑法上的構成要件也就是德國刑法153條對於他必須宣誓講實話的人員他沒有說到實話因此他有刑事上訴罪的可能但這邊特別強調這些都是刑法上的規定但並不是由國會自行發動你有藐視國會的嫌疑但如果我們看到德國的制度難道說我們就不能夠在國內也可以引進相關的制度嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4159.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4164.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
在國內作為一個學術界上面提出的建言來講當然我們要參考德國的制度我只是針對從一個學者角度發言應該沒有重量度到這種程度但是也是請大家作為一個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4187.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4216.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
因為德國的體制其實是我國專家學者常常會提出來也甚至政府機關也做過很多的研究其實立法院跟政府機關都做過很多類似的研究但是我們要了解德國的體制前必須了解德國它基本上它任何的行為都必須要有法律的依據因此剛才針對藐視國會罪事實上是不存在的但我們如何去苛責行政機關這種事後苛責的這樣的機制那必然是在於它的法律也就是刑法而且必須透過刑事訴訟法的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4218.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4218.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
國內如果要 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4229.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4258.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
引進相關的制度確保行政官員在國會議員質詢的時候能夠說出實話那必然還是要第一個竹飛利專法制定國會的調查委員會的職權行使法如同德國體制第二個修正刑法上的相關條文確定有藐視國會罪第三個任何相關形式上的訴追還是要回復到形式訴訟的程序因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4259.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4280.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
如同一開始所講的民主的原則第一個就是三權分立三權分立之下立法是監督行政因此立法他們的目的在監督行政發掘事實確保民意可以透過法律落實但立法不是司法司法還是必須回歸司法因此是否藐視國會是否對國會議員說謊不實 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4284.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4284.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4303.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4322.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
國會議員能夠確實的質詢行政官員並且要求行政官員在面對民意的時候必須回答實話而不能夠任何推諉色澤之嫌那面對這樣子的法律上的要求自然而然我想有法律的依據就不會有後續的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4326.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4351.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
在德國的國會是不是有政黨提出應該要納入如同美國的藐視國會罪有的我想在德國有幾個重要的政黨除了我們知道的幾個大黨之外德國還有一個大家都知道比較具有排外性質的叫做另類選擇黨這個政黨也曾經在2023年的時候提出藐視國會罪希望能夠納入到刑法當中那相關議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4352.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4353.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4373.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4373.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
公聽委員：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4392.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4411.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
立法機關來決定你是否藐視國會還是應該要由司法機關或是法院來決定是否藐視國會最終回歸到法律的機制依法而行才能夠真正落實我們所講的三權分立的原則而同時在拘束 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4412.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4412.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4436.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4436.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
劉許廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4451.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4472.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
好 謝謝主席我們今天在討論這個完善國會的調查制度這個原因當然很簡單我們今天想從責任政治的角度來探討這樣的事情什麼叫責任政治責任政治包含法律責任跟政治責任法律責任指施政違法的時候接受法律制裁負起法律上應付之責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4472.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4494.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
而政治責任則表示政府官員因違反民意決策錯誤成效不彰等等失去人民信任造成人民不滿即便沒有違法但也要負起相關的責任嚴重的話必須要辭職下台按照現行的憲法架構來看法律責任中司法機關追究刑事責任監察機關追究行政責任而這個政治責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4495.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4523.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
往往是透過民意代表在議事堂上的問政質詢點出缺失然後希望透過這樣的方式來實現責任政治的精神但很遺憾的是政治的實務上這個概念真的有被落實嗎我們現行的機制真的有辦法讓行政的官員負起所謂的政治責任嗎我想這是所有社會大眾應該要共同思考的重要問題那麼立法委員受選民的託付要有權力要監督政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4524.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4552.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
但問政品質的好壞 取決於立委的專業程度 了解程度但議題的種類繁多 我們也不見得是每一個議題領域的專家按照現行立法院職權行使法 有所謂的調閱制度但顯然強度 跟量能是不夠的也不見得能夠確保資料的正確性 可靠性 跟完整性因此本次國會改革 最重要的是完善立法調查權以及相關聽證制度藉由制度法制化的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4554.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4575.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
讓立法委員的聽證調查程序明文規定透過調查搭配聽證的執行讓相關人士在公開而且正式的場合就已知去做清楚的陳述並且俯以資料的呈現就立法委員關心的問題加以說明這樣子相關事項可以清楚對焦可以釐清問題的爭點 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4577.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4593.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
另外要透過處罰等等強制性的手段使相關人員的出席啊陳述的真實性資料提供的正確性有一定的擔保讓調查的結果有可靠性有權威性也讓立法委員可以根據這一些的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4594.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4618.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
提出質詢 或作為立法背景資料 強化立法的品質 問政的品質並且更有力量要求政府官員為錯誤的責任 負起政治責任這是他的正當性那麼我必須要再次補充 為什麼我們必須要有強制手段很多人講說按照現行的機制不就好了嗎我只能說 自律不成 只能他律了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4619.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4635.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
如果行政官員有為有守願意尊重國會有的時候願意主動擔起政治責任也許今天國會改革國會這些聽證調查的制度要入法它的迫切性可能不會這麼高但是我們現行的這些行政官員動輒迴避問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4637.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4662.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
更有甚者反質詢甚至侮辱國會議員在這樣子的一個場合之下顯然責任政治根本沒有任何自律的可能性所以我們當然有必要透過法制化的角度來強化國會問政的炮火去落實這樣子的精神剛剛我們公聽會竟然有教授講說我們要確保這些人說謊的權利這樣子的說法真的能夠被社會大眾所接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4663.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4691.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
也許法律有法律的學理概念可是我們今天在這立法院的殿堂就是要平衡民意跟法律的專業對不對講說確保這些人連說謊的權利都沒有這樣子的言論恐怕很有爭議吧本席認為完善國會調查權跟建立聽證制度它不只不可或缺而且刻不容緩真的不是黨派鬥爭的戰爭工具因為這些法律入法之後不管誰執政誰在野 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4692.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4708.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
都可以按照法律的規定去強化國會的問政品質啊這個也絕對不是立法院的專善擴權我們今天不就在這裡開公聽會嗎我們馬上不就是要進入法條的討論跟審查嗎是立法院不應該忘記人民賦予我們監督政府的神聖使命 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4709.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4736.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我們不能再繼續變成行政院下面的立法局更不能成為執政者的橡皮圖章這些都是民進黨曾經在野的時候都講過的論點所以這些事情不應該因為政黨的輪替而變成主客意味反而在這樣子的時候大家應該捐氣成見立刻的討論立刻的通過品質的好壞第一透過討論的方式來處理第二透過修法之後的實際執行滾動式的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4738.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4741.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我們現在補充介紹到場的學者專家國立雲林科技大學科技法律研究所吳威志教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4768.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4776.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那待會主席這邊會發言那由我這邊發言完畢之後就請吳教授進行發言好現在有請吳宗憲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4809.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4833.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我今天先肯定一下行政院今天的報告因為今天報告沒有再拿585號來牛頭不對馬嘴了因為相關昨天昨天本人前天吧本人在這邊的時候曾經就行政院拿585號來做這樣的對我的提案做這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4835.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4863.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
公職：不要說公職說明好了那我個人是始終是不認同因為不一樣的東西不能拿來隨便用這是第一個第二個大法官他在認定是否違憲的時候他其實有講到許多他的前提要件但是行政官員不應該直接跳結論不應該說大法官認為這個違憲因為大法官認為這個違憲之前他有一些前提要件必須符合所以不是你這個行為就叫做違憲那 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4864.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4893.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
行政機關的官員絕對不應該去主動去帶風向去騙人民所以我昨天一直在講一直在講這個部分就是政府不應該拿錯誤的資訊來誤導人民這個是不應該的這完完全全不應該那長期以來我們的政府是拿很多不同的數據來欺騙人民來美化一些大眾對於施政的感覺那這都不是一個負責任的政府該做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4894.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4908.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我還是很深信民進黨的創黨精神青蓮情振愛鄉土我非常認同這個創黨精神那我希望現在能夠繼續這樣堅持下去那有關這次國會改革的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4913.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4930.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
有關這次國會改革的部分那我想說我來簡單提一下其實我禮拜一的時候也一直講一個東西在座非常多公法學者我們都知道一件事情憲法是國家的根本大法絕對不可能變來變去 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4932.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4961.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我想在座有律師有學者大家都能夠認同這個所以在我這個很直很笨的法律人的腦子裡面憲法其實是不會這樣亂變來變去的否則不叫做根本大法那我們來看一下在2015年的時候蔡英文自己在臉書的主張這是我自己的臉書寫的我寫報告蔡總統我正努力達成您當年國會改革的理想 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4963.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4987.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我現在正努力在達成蔡英文當年國會改革的理想我現在就在做這件事我們看一下蔡英文在2015年她就主張要國會改革她就希望建立起聽證跟調查制度要強化監督的能量那個時候為什麼沒有群起說違憲違憲違憲我們要申請四字我們要幹什麼當時都沒有這樣做所以到今天我覺得我一直在說一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4988.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5016.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
當年跟今天唯一不一樣的就只有一個因子的差異就是執政與否所以我覺得對於事情不能這樣看我們再來看一下其實這段時間不管是顧立雄委員李俊毅委員其實都非常的清楚要求要有調查權的存在甚至要有相關的處罰那這些人現在也都在位而且都是位居高位像一位在監察院的秘書長一位是 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5016.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5041.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
國安局秘書長甚至現在的總統府秘書長就是前立法委員林佳龍他還要求要有刑罰剛剛有幾位學者痛罵說這個刑罰的部分當然我的版本是沒有刑罰我先跟各位報告我的版本是沒有刑罰的剛剛還有學者還痛罵說這怎麼有刑罰當然我們再回過頭去看其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5042.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5044.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
律師長當年他也是提有一個刑法的這個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5048.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5075.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
所以我在想 很多事情我們是可以理性的來討論那再回過頭去看其實啊 那個剛林志傑教授有提到美國的國會當然林志傑教授講得非常的正確那他們是三權分立國家我們是五權分立國家本來就是都不能這個套用但是我倒不覺得說國會這樣做會有一些老民的問題你們去看一下三權分立國家的美國其他的國會的力道更強悍 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5077.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5105.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
非常非常的強悍甚至他國會自己就下決定那這一次我們的做法其實比較是說不管有刑責或行政法我們都是交由司法去處理或交由監察院去處理我的版本並不是由國會自己就處理而是交給他們去處理這是要為了保障正當的法律程序以及保障救濟的權利這是我對於法律的堅持啦最後我簡單的說一下我是認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5107.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5108.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
立法院的權力也不能無限擴張所以我們會有一些限制的存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5133.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5158.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
提供被處分官員的程序保障涉嫌到有相關法律責任的時候就是交由司法機關或監察機關來處理絕對不是立法委員說了算這個我很堅持絕對不是立法委員說了算在這邊就跟各位報告到這邊如果什麼問題我在下午提案的時候我會再詳細說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5173.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5173.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
吳教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5205.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5228.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
主席 各位委員 各位主管 大家好現在由我針對立法院職權行使法相關法案的公聽會進行發言第一個部分尤其針對於總統赴立法院國情報告是否常態化的這個部分我們看到了相關國外的資料美國總統也有國情的諮問制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5232.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5259.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
法國其實在2008年7月有修改了第五共和的憲法所以我國需要加以來落實那麼看到條文裡面是由德來做聽取總統的國情報告權所以現以每年集會的時候顯然美國的慣例他是採用每年第一會期時候的集會立法院有斟酌邀請的裁量權 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5260.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5275.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
而且總統既已對人民負責是不得拒絕的那第三個是國情報告的內容事實上是限於國家安全大政的方針這是針對尊重總統的形式上儀式上的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5277.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5293.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
而且是要與通案 並不是以個案來作為他的一個發言的內容但是立法院基於他是一個憲政的監督機關 所以他在邀請的時候其實就可以附上很多相關重要的政策議案 請求總統在發言的內容裡面附上 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5298.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5304.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
立法院對於總統發言國情諮詢的案文是不得諮詢的也不可以與總統進行辯論避免形式上另類的行政監督原則上除非是憲法上重要職權國家當政臨時的重要事件不然一年以一次違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5323.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5343.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
至於我們看到很多立法委員提案的版本裏面 有是否現場來回答基本上在各國的慣例裏面 總統是現場回答 而且是綜合來答覆但是如果總統未以及時答覆的話 也不得在座進行第二次的質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5344.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5351.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
依照法國的一個慣例總統離開後國會議員是可以針對所詢的問題在座討論跟辯論如果有相關與行政的部分的話會委請行政院尤其是行政院院長提供相關的資料第7個總統其實也可以提出相關的主要的請求請求到國會來做質問 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5372.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5391.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那麼依照職權主要它是針對緊急命令的狀況需要獲得立法院的追認當然它就有必要來做相關的一個知情立法院雖然有否決職權但是依照憲法分權的原理這樣的請求是以不否決為矣 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5393.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5412.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那麼立法院也看到很多的版本是以相關國家安全重要方針為限所以這個部分是非常合適但是唯獨如果牽涉到具體的個案的話無論是立法院或者是總統任何一方的發動任何一方也都可以拒絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5413.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5429.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
第9個部分是我個人的看法因為總統的職權在憲法其實有很多都是實質實體上的規範但是這些實體上的規範有一些是形式的有一些是實質的所以建議立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5430.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5444.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
以制定一部總統職權行使法以進一步釐清憲法所定總統各職權行使的方式那這個部分就變成了一部是實體法一部份是程序法 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5445.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5470.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
好接下來針對第二個部分也就是說人事同意權是否召開聽證會以及協助參與審查的有不實陳述的情形如何裁法我們看到了到憲法規範的很多包含國家的主要的人員的同意權那這個部分其實也包含法院組織法裡面的最高法院檢查總長的人選 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5472.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5494.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
但是我個人反而認為最重要應該是討論大法官4日613號解釋隸屬於行政院之下的獨立機關雖然他是說主委跟委員任命由行政院獨攬但是即使如此也可以允許立法院修法讓委員依照政黨比例產生不然的話他就脫離了獨立機關可言了 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5498.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5507.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
所以這個部分其實上是立法院未來可以去思考的一個部分第三個部分因為我國並未針對個別的閣員有罷免的一個方式所以委員在提案1101701號的部分針對職權行使法第17條就算草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5519.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5521.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
其實如果新任的部長是不是可以來做人事的聽證其實我個人是認為是可以的為什麼因為總是進行先行的質詢先行的質詢是有立法的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5537.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5537.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
全院委員會 全院委員會 全院委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5561.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5578.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
提案人的審查應該可以分為兩階段因為它包含了刑事資格階段立法院仍然有權力來針對他的資格來做審查所以如果有虛偽造假全院委員會在此時應該要將此案退回 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5579.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5579.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
實質答覆：隱匿資料：虛偽陳述 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5598.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5601.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那麼 那就可以跟藐視國會就一併來裁罰那至於很多的提案裡面我看到了這個不得地2個月的審查期但是並沒有最長的期限因為事實上我個人認為除非擱置各案或者是全案擱置應該要有一個最低1個月最長3個月的審查期限才能夠避免過於冗長影響的憲政機關的運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5624.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5643.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
第7個 剛才主席以委員的身份特別講到了大法官司的585號的解釋此時我也個人認為被提名者仍然有協助調查的義務仍然還是符合大法官解釋的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5644.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5645.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
虛偽不實﹑處罰﹑藐視國會罪虛偽不實﹑其實質面不確定較難認定實務上只要拒絕出席國會的聽證調查事實上是比較明確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5665.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5665.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5685.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5686.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
謝謝吳教授那我們接下來請翁曉琳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5724.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5752.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
主席：各位委員：各位先進：還有各位觀眾朋友們大家好這次由我還有由本席還有其他的委員共同所提出的針對國會改革的法案我想很重要的目的是因為我們在這些年來我們看到其實立法權的職權無法伸張 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5753.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5777.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
立法院的重要的職權是在立法、審查預算還有監督政府的施政那麼要能夠真正的好好的去落實、去實踐這些權利它必須有個重要的前提就是立法委員需要有足夠完整的政府資訊才能夠做出適當的監督以及判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5778.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5805.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
但是我們知道目前就立法委員們首從上述能夠擁有的這個工具大概就只有執行權還有文件調閱權那麼在過去這些年裡面我們看到其實透過執行權和文件調閱權是有辦法能夠向政府機關取得最真實最正確最完整的資訊嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5807.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5829.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
事實上並沒有在我進入立法院之後我也有發現其實來立法院接受質詢的政府官員們或者是我們可能會向政府機關請求調閱一些文件資訊可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5831.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5859.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
常常都是實問虛答或是提供一些不完整不正確的訊息那麼這個對於立法委員想要好好的去監督政府施政我覺得是有困難度的所謂公欲善其事必先利其器沒有足夠好的監督政府的工具手段是很難指導問題的核心我們沒有辦法無從判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5861.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5883.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
到底政府機關所提供的這個相關的行政資訊是否正確尤其是在針對要去了解一些弊案或是行政措施的這個疏失的時候基本上我目前的工具是不足的也因為如此這次為什麼要提出強化這個國會監督的力量 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5885.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5891.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我們沒有足夠的工具我們就沒有辦法好好的去行使我們立法委員的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5894.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5917.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那麼立法院職權行使法最近一次的修法是在107年在過去這些年間雖然陸陸續續大概每隔大概五六年六七年都會有一次修法但是呢其實都沒有修到真正的核心我必須說臺灣的政治環境在改變立法權和行政權的互動的制衡關係也在改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5918.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5943.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我們講我們中華民國憲法是五權分立可是現在看起來這個五權分這個是相互制衡是相互平等嗎還是已經偏向嚴重的這個向行政權這個傾倒那麼整個行政跟立法的這個相互制衡的關係是已經出現了很大的這個偏離那麼所以在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5945.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5964.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我們也發現在過去我們希望行政作為跟行政諮詢是必須要透明公開的那行政官員必須要尊重立法委員的職權並且接受民意代表的監督但是這些年我們看到這些要求事實上都沒有辦法做到而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5967.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5981.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
行政機關的總統作為已經偏離了憲法的原理那在這樣的情況之下我們怎麼能夠不去強化國會的監督力量呢否則立法委員只是狗肺火車行政機關根本就毫不 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5981.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5982.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
國會平權 國會與行政機關的平權 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6003.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6009.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
強化我們現在立法院有不足的功能不管是國會聽證權、藐視國會的處罰以及我們要求總統每年必須要來立法院進行國情報告等等這些都是有助於我們未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6021.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6021.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
吳思瑤委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6061.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6078.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
謝謝主席首先感謝主席今天安排的公聽會但也因為今天早上的地震那非常多我們邀請的學者專家可能出席的人數可能連一半都不到所以因應這個特殊的狀況也回應本席一再的呼籲這麼嚴肅的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6080.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6106.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
國會改革的議案我們需要更擴大專業界的意見參詢要更擴大社會公民團體的參與我再一次呼籲那在公聽會的部分是應當再著雨增加不宜直接在沒有完整的社會共識之前就進行法案的逐條的審議我再次重申我的理由那也因為今天上午發生的這個地震的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6107.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6107.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
4月3日 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6122.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6138.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
但是今天在討論國會改革的議案好像大家坐上了時光機回到了2016甚至2012或是更早之前的時空環境因為非常多的在野黨委員一再的提到歷史的文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6139.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6164.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
提到民主進步黨過去在2016的版本甚至2012的版本甚至又提到在林卓水委員擔任立委的時期她的是1992到2007那個時間是更又往前提喔所以修法不是一個時空凝滯的思維修法不是木乃伊 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6165.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6187.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
修法不是修文化資產一定要復舊如舊所以我們來檢視過去的條文跟今天的精進大有必要我們要再一次的強調誰說民主進步黨在2024的時空背景提出來的法案一定要把2016的條文一字不漏全文照草 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6188.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6190.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
立法院職權行使法相關法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6206.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6226.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
必須在新的屆期重新審視之後重送新案因為每一個新的屆期它是新的民意的代表它是新的思維的產生所以在屆期不連續的狀況之下當然可以就過去的議案重新審視 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6228.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6247.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
所以本席這一次是擔任民進黨2024國會小組改革小組的召集人當我在跟小組還有專家學者在研議這個條文的時候我們確實虛心的檢視的拿出2016地震我可以時間暫停嗎主席等一下情緒整理好我們再來沒關係先暫停 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6260.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6260.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
好 繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6270.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6290.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我作為民主進步黨2024國會改革小組的召集人在調整法案 審視法案 延提新法案的同時我們確實負責任的虛心檢視了2016的版本我們提出很多的精進 我們提出很多的檢視我要跟大家來說明 大家可以回顧一下2016到2024這8年 民主黨 民主進步黨作為國會的多數 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6296.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6308.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
如果我們想要強行通過任何的議案如在野黨委員所說的是絕對無堅不摧的可是為什麼民主進步黨沒有在這八年的期間利用國會多數的時刻來通過2016我們的版本因為兩個原因我們非常嚴肅的去審視了民進黨當時的版本並沒有獲得社會全面的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6324.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6337.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
所以告訴我們要再聆聽社會的聲音第二個理由我們也非常清楚的去審視了大法官誓字585號乃至於其他的釋憲文我們過去提出來的調查跟聽證權確實有與憲法漢格之處我們經過這樣子的審視我們予以自治予以檢視讓草案維持是草案而不是成為最終的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6354.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6371.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
今天本席站在這裡我們的身份叫做立法委員法案會隨著時空背景有不同的思維跟不同的討論沒有道理說今天在談2024的國會改革版本就是要挑戰民進黨跟2016的主張不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6374.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6395.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我必須很抱歉的說 這8年的時空光景 有部分委員連選區都不曉得換了幾輪 有部分的政治工作者連他的政黨都可以一再的跳槽 立場都可以改變 難道法案的內容精神演繹不能夠精進嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6397.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6404.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以今天在這裡我們請大家審視民主進步黨最新的條文版本我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6405.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6412.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
第8章用兩節來處理調查權第一節處理國會院會層級的調查權第二節來處理委員會層次的調閱小組民主進步黨這一次的法案是有調查權但是調查權的行使不可以與憲法所規範的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6428.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6438.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
跟立委職權相關的議案相符者不可溢出所以我們在我們的第8章第一節或第二節都針對調查權的行使進行了明確的規範所以民進黨的版本是可調查但是在憲法的約束上有限制然後當然要強化調查過程當中的保密作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6454.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6459.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
所以請大家在評論民進黨2024的版本的時候不要一味的去 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6461.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6484.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
帶風向好像民進黨這一次依舊對於大家所理解的叫調查權是完全不接受的NO我們也參照了大家的意見如果對於調查權的行使如果有我們在符合正當法律的程序之下對於不配合沒有依據規範要提供有利於國會調查需要的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6490.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6515.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
文件或是這些相關的說明的時候我們民主進步黨的版本依舊也是得以來施以行政法所以這些我們都採納參採就如同我們的昭偉他是專業的法律人他自己對於藐視國會罪的部分他個人的版本也是否定了能夠直接予以刑責來處理它因為他認為這就溢出了 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6518.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6530.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
議出了憲法所授權的範圍但我不會說吳宗憲召委的版本跟其他委員的不同我就來挑戰誰對或誰錯我們今天在這裡務實的來討論議案因為時間有限我也請大家能夠來多多檢視民主進步黨這一次國會改革的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6541.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6556.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
國會有權就要有責大家非常重視的權責相符的部分調查權的部分人事同意權的行使讓它更加嚴謹的部分民主進步黨都予以修正入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6557.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6565.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
然後在責任政治的部分國會對於委員自身的專業問政的各項幕僚機關的協助乃至於委員自律以及國會問政品質的克責問責我們都予以含納所以我們是一個非常周延 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6575.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6578.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
全責相符的國會改革方案而不是只往擴權的一端去無限上綱我也非常感謝出席的專家學者們在線上聆聽的公民朋友們大家可以好好去審視每一個委員乃至於黨團所提出的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6595.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6609.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
是不是達到權責相符的國會改革的本質是不是有遵循憲法所授予的國會能夠行使的權限是不是有違反人權之餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6611.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6637.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這些部分大家都可以經過不斷的對話、審視來匯聚社會的共識時間到了,謝謝大家我們後續希望還有更多的公聽會因為我大概只發言了我想發言的十分之一謝謝主席,謝謝大家謝謝吳委員接下來我們補充介紹到場的學者國立台灣大學政治學系左振東教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6639.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6664.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我們接著就請羅志強委員發言在台灣民主發展的過程當中其實民主進步黨一直對台灣有很多的貢獻 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6665.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6691.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那民主進步黨有很多的前輩我也非常的敬重那我今天就要特別講蔡同榮前輩蔡同榮過去在民主進步黨他有一個尊稱叫做蔡公投那蔡公投蔡同榮先生在過去的立法院裡面有兩個很重要的主張一個就是希望公投可以跟大選合併舉行 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6694.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6717.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
讓公民意志充分顯現也讓今天透過提高投票率能夠形塑一個有民意基礎的公投決定另外一個就是提出了藐視國會罪希望能夠讓我們的立法院能夠不負選民所託能夠充分行使立法院該有的調查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6719.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6742.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
然後能夠監督政府然後為民喉舌但我這邊非常遺憾的這兩件事情都被今天的民進黨今天的民進黨的立委推翻了蔡同榮先生的心願變成遺願而這個遺願民進黨全部推翻 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6744.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6761.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我先講公投 民進黨現在最近在談到所謂的有關於他的國會改革版本他一直講說時空環境不同在我看來只是屁股位置不同啦很簡單一個道理 就以蔡同榮講的公投我也提出了公投的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6762.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6784.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
民進黨多年來都是主張公投跟大選要合併舉行陳其邁也曾經有主張而且話說得非常重說反對公投綁大選的人其實就是把民意視為洪水猛獸後來好不容易公投跟大選合併舉行之後民進黨因為認為對他的整個政治的利益不利 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6785.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6812.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
於是又把公投跟大選拆開來 閹割了公投從此之後 台灣的公投又被關進鐵籠裡面如果民進黨真的認為時空環境變了公投從該併大選 變成是不該併大選那也沒關係 你就一以蓋之的尊重是改變了這個形式 是嗎不到兩年 接下來民進黨提出修憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6813.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6819.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
要做公民復決他竟然又把他跟大選合併在一起說真的我沒有看過轉彎轉這麼快轉彎轉這麼大的政黨而今天回到我們國會聽證調查藐視國會的相關的立法我不客氣的說 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6839.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6867.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
國會聽證調查的制度談了20年沒有建制那是過去立法院的怠惰啊是對不起我們的選民對不起我們中華民國憲法我在這邊 擔任立法委員也不過 兩個月我跟各位說我真的深刻的感受到陳其邁口中的無牙的老虎是什麼滋味啊因為沒有調查 充分的調查權沒有充分的聽證權 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6868.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6890.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
因為對於官員說謊、不實陳述、反質詢、拒絕提供資料、敷衍提供資料所有今天在立法院我們見到的我這兩個月見證的官員們的傲慢跟囂張立法委員基本上通通束手無策完全是良心事業啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6894.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6908.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我今天在立法院說謊不說謊看我官員高興啦我提供資料不提供資料看我官員高興啦那我想請問您這樣的立法院他能夠充分發揮憲政的職能嗎所以這是為什麼今天新的國會我們要提出國會改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6918.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6942.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
的法案我們要落實聽證調查制度我們要來制定藐視國會的處罰當然聽證調查的制度如何進行這是修法過程當中可以廣納各方的意見但是絕對不可以像民進黨今天提出的版本這種自我閹割跟所謂自我放棄 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6944.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6970.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
簡直就是民進黨版的另類行政權的葵花寶典只是行政權經過民進黨版的這個國會改革提案它的葵花寶典行政權掌握神功但至公的是立法院的職權藐視國會到底該用什麼樣的處罰方式這是立法我們可以討論的但是如果沒有處罰方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6972.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6989.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我跟各位講一樣回到我們這兩個月看到的立法院變成官員的良心事業他高興說謊就說謊他不提供資料不提供資料他消極應付你就應付你這樣的國會跟廢物的差別在哪裡我不知道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6990.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7019.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
所以為什麼今天在這邊我也常在講國會改革不是為了一黨一派國會改革甚至是為了民進黨的理念跟理想這民進黨過去20年來一路走來主張支持的東西怎麼今天全部拋空把它忘光光來提出一個自我閹割自我限縮然後完全為官員服務的葵花至公保點呢我無法理解 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7025.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7049.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我們先補充介紹到場的專家學者前立法委員黃士傑律師萬國法律事務所陳鵬光律師萬國法律事務所陳英明律師國立清華大學通識教育中心黃仁俊助理教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7051.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7063.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那補充到介紹到場委員 鍾嘉賓召委 洪孟楷委員好 那接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7074.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7100.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
謝謝昭偉 昭偉可不可以先不要算時間提醒你一下因為大地震 在場所有的學者專家可能大家都有自己的 比如說學校裡面 家庭 任何什麼事情要處理是我們等一下先暫停休息一下讓他們也可以去打打電話 或者說做些什麼樣的事情跟昭偉來提醒 請昭偉裁決 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7102.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7124.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
是否等一下我們在下一位鍾嘉賓召委那個發言先休息OK好那不好意思謝謝鍾召委好意提醒了是那我們在待會那個鍾瑞雄委員發言結束之後我們休息5分鐘然後5分鐘之後回來我們就繼續接著由鍾召委發言謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7125.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7137.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
謝謝 謝謝昭偉我們在場的所有我敬佩的我們學者專家各界的精英還有我們立法院的各位同事這幾天各個政黨裡面公訪的一個焦點就在整個國會調查權的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7139.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7141.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
國會改革 國會調查權的定性 行使的界限 行使的方式跟程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7158.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7176.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這個其實都做成很多號的一個解釋大體定調調查權是立法院行使憲法職權所必要的輔助性的一個權利這個我相信在立法院裡面沒有一個黨派會去拒絕說國會可以擁有調查權最近我看國民黨對民進黨批評的很兇說這個是在完成民主進步黨的理想這個好意大可不必整個國會是人民的一個國會要怎麼樣開放的一個國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7187.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7187.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
行訴訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7216.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7219.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
在184條裡面他本身就有拒絕證言權的這樣的一個針對特定的一個親屬之間我曾經當過法定代理人的那這一些人是連法院叫我來叫我去來作證我理都可以不要去理你了 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7232.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7247.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
這個其實就是在談整個這個期待可能性的問題嘛那我也是人性尊嚴的一環那我必須要提出來就是說這個現在的一個爭議裡面出現的大部分如果說賦予調查成立調查委員會的一個權限卻沒有給這個委員會相當強制的一個規範那麼受邀請的一個對象他拒絕來提供資料或者對於查明真相能力打折扣那這樣的話這樣的一個規範的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7260.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7275.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那確實是我們也覺得說法律必須要去充實的一個地方但是可不可以強到像國民黨的總召傅君琦所提出來的連私人的部分都可以透過立法院的決議來移送檢查機關這個讓我第一個想到的就是擴權我從第8屆跟顧立雄委員我們共提的一個國會改革的一個版本我到現在都承認 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7287.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7297.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
民主進步黨到第9屆2016年的時候也提出黨版大家都有討論第8屆就林佳龍那第9屆就我跟顧立雄那民進黨也有黨版那為什麼到最後沒有過我們在閹割嗎沒有啊國民黨你也不贊成啊那個叫做社會沒有共識啊那社會沒有共識什麼樣來達到共識我來看看啊我們在講說司法院大法官會議裡面從它歷屆裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7315.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7320.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
他從1992年做成了4-293他確立公營銀行的文件調閱權1993年的4-325強調說目前只有監察院外立法院也有行使憲法職權文件的一個調閱權在1993年325號 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7332.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7347.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
才算確立立法院可以行使調閱權的一個權利也就是說連大法官的態度也就一直在成長一直在做一個改變到了1998年4月461號重申立法院對機關提供資料有餘力可以邀請該會 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7351.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7366.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
議會2014年針對319真相調查委員會大家一直在談的四字五八五確立國會調查權的憲政框架這幾天大家在立法院的攻防裡面其實都是在講說處罰的範圍怎麼樣合理的一個強制的一個手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7368.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7394.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
在2015年我們立法院的調閱偵查證券所做成的729號的大法官會議解釋也認定立法院向檢察機關調味權證也僅限於偵查終結不起訴確定或者未經起訴其他方式結案的一個證券算是對文件調味權的一個限制我相信這些看起來眼花繚亂但是也不是原封不動 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7395.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7421.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
在我看來是與時俱進那我們立法院立法委員是在行使人民的意志那我們現在說要國會改革好啊有調查權好事啊民進黨也有版本出來啊我們也贊成啊但對象跟範圍我們這樣子用政治攻防的一個方式我們到底改變了些什麼我們到底要達到些什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7422.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7437.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
現在各個黨的黨版裏面有沒有傳達人民對國會改革的一個期望我希望大家可以平心靜氣啊所以今天這麼多學者專家來啊我要很仔細的 我在那邊在台下聆聽啊透過我們這麼多的專家學者的一個專業來釐清現在世界趨勢的一個動態好的部分啊我們用心來跟人民來溝通你像比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7449.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7462.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
上個禮拜我們在內政委員會海巴法的修訂裡面我們都說好就讓民眾黨的版本進來以後再來討論甚至於國民黨要求說我們到地方去開公聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7464.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7489.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
本席都認為說講得很有道理就讓他去公聽再次強調國會是在實施人民的意志不是只有單純的政治政黨之間的一個攻防我們也期待有這麼多學者專家在不要讓他們看笑話了先放下黨派之劍凝聚整個社會上的一個共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7490.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7514.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這個才是重點當我一想到我相信昭偉很清楚你本身也在法界出來我也當過那麼久的律師我們在傳喚證人的時候你說把證人找來法官要你拒絕也要先問你的身份問你的身份到底他這個拒絕要不要讓他簽下去看你這些關係的時候馬上說要提醒你說你可以拒絕證言那我們立法院毫無限制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7515.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7544.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
人民一定會講我們真的在擴權我們到底要達到什麼樣的國會改革各個政黨應該躺開心胸再去講說民進黨不是2016年有提出嗎是啊我們有提出啊本席也有提出啊提出又怎麼樣那社會沒有共識啊如果按照說人數多的話那2016年這樣版本全部都通過啦所以啊我是覺得大家比較謹慎來處理國會改革的事情尤其是期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7545.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7563.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我們是要做多久?我們立法院是要做多久?國會改革不能到最後笑話立法委員沒有人幹一輩子的我都很怕我們立法院這一次通過了一個法案如果人民這個範圍無限制的擴張的話是立法院在作孽謝謝謝謝莊委員那我們現在休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7580.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7581.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7603.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7607.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
法則提高,提高可以找我,法則提高不要找我 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7624.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7625.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7647.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7648.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
公職委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8084.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8096.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我們現在補充介紹國立政治大學政治學系聖信源教授接下來我們請宗嘉斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8102.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8127.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
主席 我們在場的學者專家 各機關代表我想今天上午因為地震的突發狀況 很多大眾運輸暫停服務以至於學者專家到的比較慢但是上午在研究室也恭臨了今天前面幾位學者專家的高見我覺得都非常的有道理在今天呢 我們都從憲法的學理 包括大法官的解釋 引經據典 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8129.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8157.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
但是我們來看一看國會改革跟人民有什麼關係我們接下來就從民眾的角度來思考這個問題因為就在昨天的新聞報導我們看到了本屆國會的最大黨因為積極投入國會改革的議題在媒體報導說導致於滿意度急劇下滑這是什麼原因我用一個方式來形容中了樂透該怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8158.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8185.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
中了樂透該怎麼做應該是好好的謹慎規劃理財但是有人中了樂透以前想買不到的通通要買我們來看看今天的這個題目大概我們來看一下當國會第一大黨終於成為國會第一大黨再次成為國會第一大黨的時候他要將過去這幾年來在立法院他想做不能做的通通要做想做什麼想要質詢蔡英文總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8187.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8208.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
想要做什麼?想要對於總統提名的人事同意權的案子要求這些被提名人要依照他的意思來答覆想要做什麼?想要在立法院進行調閱小組的時候要求行政機關要提供他要的資料這個都是目前國會最大黨過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8210.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8236.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
其間一直想要的因此當本屆成為第一大廠之後 中了樂透之後什麼都想要 什麼都要買 什麼都要一次來完畢但是人民關切的是什麼呢 就是今天提綱的第四點人民不反對健全國會但是為什麼國會的改革在過去這幾年來 一致在民間沒有共識因為社會對於立法院的信賴度還有待提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8237.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8266.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
民間對於立法委員的表現還有待考量因此民間擔心這些藉國會改革之名要擴張國會權利會不會反過來去侵犯人民的權利會不會影響到我們國家的安全這才是今天第四點提綱代表人民的聲音所以我今天就用這個人民能夠理解的方式來談一談這四點主張我們怎麼來看待首先看到總統副立法會 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8267.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8289.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
委員做國情報告這個其實我們民眾都覺得對阿縣市首長都會到議會去報告阿那總統來立法院報告似乎也無不可但是如果從民眾不曉得的憲政原理從中華民國憲政體制的嚴格他是有個變遷的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8291.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8293.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
國民大會在憲法本文有質詢總統的這樣的設計嗎 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8308.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8321.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
是在李前總統時期一機關二階段修憲要將萬年國會終結的時候要將總統的選舉權交給人民來行使的時候他跟國民大會的一個談判 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8322.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8348.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那時候很多目前國民黨現任立委他們之前的前輩很清楚的參與這樣的一個政治上的談判後來給了什麼國民大會什麼權利國民大會被剝奪了總統的選舉權但是他們取得了對總統來國民大會進行國情諮問國情報告的權利而且是講完了綜合一個回答而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8349.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8354.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那麼這樣的一個權利隨著國民大會逐漸的 呃 監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8354.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8381.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
被去國會機關化監察院的同意權行使被移到國民大會然後國民大會被終結掉之後這些權利又移到了立法院所以當現在的立法院含不啷噹接受了這些歷史遺跡的時候都以為這是他國會本來就應有的權利抱歉包括徵修條文民進黨努力很久要求把監察院跟考試權回歸到他的一個國會權跟行政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8382.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8403.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
在野黨國民黨堅持不同意在這樣的前提之下我們同現在的法例要談要將原屬於憲法設計監察院的調查權回歸到屬於立法院的國會權難道不能夠好好的來思考嗎另外我們談到人事同學行使以及對行政機關進行調查的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8405.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8431.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
最大黨一直想要要求用藐視國會的方式來刻意行政機關的義務這個就建權落實國會調查權我想民進黨的版本也是認可這樣的一個調查權必須有一個後面的強制基礎但是看到國民黨的諸多版本嚴重的侵犯到人民的隱私權跟自由權 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8433.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8456.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
請問國會行使調查權的時候不是要調查行政機關?監督行政機關嗎?這些版本讓人民的自由跟隱私陷入了恐慌當中有的甚者國會要落實自己的權利也要落實對自己的義務當權責不如的時候就會濫權我們看到國會這大黨所提出的諸多版本都只有在擴張國會的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8458.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8484.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
卻忽略了相對國會跟立法委員應盡的義務什麼義務 保密的義務過去國會進行審查 機密預算審查 機密會議的時候紛紛擾擾大家 人民都聚焦說 喔 國會議員可以藉職權的行使 窒息許多重要的機密然而這些機密似乎很容易的就流到對台灣國家安全有威脅的境外敵對勢力手上 是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8486.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8513.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
立法委員：國會立法院有辦法做到在進行調查的同時能夠確保這些機密不會外洩不會危害國安嗎這兩個問題才是今天公聽會可能觸及或者在現有的版本上沒有碰到的重大議題這才是人民關心的議題這也才是國會目前最大黨強推國會改革卻沒有辦法讓人民適宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8514.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8529.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
以至於滿意度直直落的重要原因我們希望這個公聽會請學者專家提出你們寶貴的見解讓未來我們的國會改革走得穩 走得遠 謝謝好 謝謝中召委接下來我們請左振東教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8539.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8553.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
主席,各位委員,各位學者專家在座的各位大家好,線上在收看的朋友們大家好。我想剛才聆聽了各位委員的高見,其實也很有感觸。 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8555.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8574.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
特別是前面這個中委員提到的一些想法我覺得也忍不住要說幾句話了因為中委員剛才一直認為說好像在野黨推國會改革是導致滿意度下降的一個重要原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8577.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8593.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
中委員,請回去看一下賴清德總統當選人最近講的一句話很多政策提出來的時候可能大家並不是非常能夠接受但是時間久了你就知道它的價值所以很多事情也許我們需要花長眼的時間去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8594.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8595.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
民進黨版本提出了一些很完整的做法我是滿期待的結果我剛才看了一下書面資料沒有看到民進黨的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8612.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8612.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
國會調查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8627.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8627.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
國會調查權規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8643.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8669.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
或其他委員提出相應版本我相信有一個版本大家是比較容易去討論也比較能夠達成所謂形成社會共識這樣的一個目標那我覺得其實我也很感謝剛才幾位委員的發言因為事實上有談到一些想法我覺得我想要先回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8670.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8694.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
所謂立法委員的社會形象不佳所以立法委員不能夠被賦予太多的權利這樣子一個講法正確嗎?其實我想不管是什麼樣的機關都有可能有被社會信賴的人來執掌或者不被社會信賴的人來執掌 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8695.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8717.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
但是一個機關被社會所信賴的人來執掌或者不被社會所信賴的人來執掌並不是決定我們要給這個機關多大權力的一個原因因為制度它就是一個超越人的制度它就是一個可以有自己的生命而去使我們這個國家的民主政治走得更健全、更穩健 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8719.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8740.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
事實上我想在座的很多我們有法律人都讀過這個聯邦論聯邦論有一句話講說人如果是天使組成的我們就不需要政府政府如果是天使組成的我們就不需要分權制衡正是因為我們都不是天使我們都有缺點所以我們知道一旦我們進了那個位置上 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8740.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8745.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
國會改革的核心使命就是要分權制衡就是要讓中華民國的憲政體制能夠發揮分權制衡的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8758.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8779.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
為什麼分權制衡這麼重要為什麼我們現在沒有足夠的分權制衡我只講一點非常關鍵的事情就是今天的行政跟立法權力極度的不均衡極度的不平衡立法沒有辦法有效的去制衡這個行政部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8781.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8794.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
中華民國憲法行政要向立法負責,但是請問我們的行政院有向立法院負責嗎?好,當然這個問題也許比較抽象,我就從制度的條文來跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8796.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8810.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
在我們在修憲的時候1997年修憲的時候那個時候只要翻開的相關的資料都知道當時的政府的設計的原型是法國第五共和的所謂的雙首長制或者半總統制 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8812.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8812.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
中文字幕提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8842.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8861.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
但是我們現在的行政院 行政院長任命之後並沒有這個憲法上的義務向國會提出一個信任案也就是我們國會沒有機會去對這個行政院長表達我們國會是不是接受這樣子的一位行政院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8862.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8862.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
大韓民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8880.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8901.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
雖然我個人不接受,但是如果有人把有總理的大韓民國當作總統制,那我們中華民國也可以用總統制去想像它,那應該它是可以去參照大韓民國那韓國的總理是需要國會同意的,韓國的總理任命是需要國會同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8902.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8921.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
韓國的國會是可以經由三分之一的提議半數的決定去建議總統更換總理或者他的內閣的部會首長我們的立法院有這項職權嗎沒有所以不管你是比照 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8922.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8950.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
法國的第五共和或是你比照韓國一個半總統制一個有總理的總統制兩者其實國會都有相當的權限而這些在我們的中華民國的立法院都沒有你怎麼能說我們的立法院是有足夠的權力去實踐所謂分權制衡的一個憲政的理念呢所以這是為什麼我們今天要談國會改革為什麼我們今天要談總統到立法院來進行國情 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8952.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8952.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
國情報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8973.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8974.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
韓國的文在寅總統他在任的時候經常去國會報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8991.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8991.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
政務委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9005.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9020.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這是我們今天要講的兩個重要的精神一個分權制衡 一個政黨合作如果根據這兩個精神我們怎麼來看我們的所謂的總統的國情報告呢我這裡頭有一個大膽的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9021.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9045.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
因為在這裡頭目前我看到的這個提綱裡頭討論的是說到底是不是要怎麼樣回答總統進行國情報告之後要怎麼樣回答要急問急答要統問統答我認為這個問題其實當然重要但是不是最重要的我認為最重要的問題是國會對於總統的報告可以做什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9047.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9067.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
不管是即問即答 或者同問同答 其實它都是一個附帶的功能 它不是一個主要的功能因為總統並不向國會負責 是行政院長要向國會負責所以總統 我認為如果要總統不管是即問即答 同問同答 他都可能會模糊了這樣子一個憲政的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9069.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9085.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
雖然同問同答是可行的,但是即問即答或者要求總統向國會負責,這是違背我們的憲政設計可是我認為國會可以做什麼事情?相反的,我認為國會可以在總統報告之後進行投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9086.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9108.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
進行辯論跟投票法國的第五共和憲法在2008年修憲之後他是有允許國會議員在總統國情報告之後進行辯論原來馬克宏總統希望修憲讓總統也能夠參與在這個辯論但是修憲沒有過當然這也是蠻吊詭的一件事情我想如果在台灣也許大家都會同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9109.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9118.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
可是我認為從憲政設計的角度來說我反而覺得應該去有一個投票機制立法委員到底讚不讚同總統的這個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9120.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9139.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
為什麼?因為目前立法委員沒有機會對於行政院長是不是信任是不是獲得國會的信任來進行投票沒有這個機制所以如果我們的總統國情報告的設計是在新內閣任命之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9141.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9161.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
邀請總統來進行報告對於總統報告的內容來進行投票那麼就形同是對於總統任命的革魁來進行一個信任投票他是沒有拘束力的他也沒有辦法在我們憲政設計上具有拘束力但是他有可能可以創造一種政治上的一種壓力會讓政府 讓總統知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9166.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9193.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
國會對於這個行政院長的想法如何讓總統必須要在這個行政院以及內閣的任命過程裡頭去跟在野黨尋求合作、溝通在他的未來的施政計畫上要尋求更多在野黨的支持我認為這個機制的重點是在這裡當然這個想法並不是非常的成熟但我希望各位專家學者也好、立法委員也好能夠去思考這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9195.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9223.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
這個思考的起點也就是我剛才向各位報告的因為我們的國會並沒有法國第五共和的國會所擁有的一個所謂要求總理就職的時候進行信任投票我們也沒有韓國國會要求總理任命的時候可以進行同意權所以如何讓我們的國會有相對的憲政上有相對憲政跟法律上的武器能夠迫使 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9225.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9245.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這個我們憲法上規定行政向立法負責的這一個條文能夠真正落實我認為是我們今天在思考國情之文裡頭所應該考慮的一個核心的問題那麼當然今天因為提供很多我想關於調查權的部分我就只簡短的講到一點調查權的確是非常複雜的問題這裡頭當然因為基於這個4次這個325號這個585號的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9254.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9280.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
解釋文都已經確認了立法院是有調查權雖然立法院的調查權有學界的說法認為是一個不完整的調查權但立法院的確是有調查權所以對於立法院的調查權的規範當然是非常重要的這裏頭包括什麼就是立法院通過什麼樣的程序可以去建立一個調查委員會調查委員會可以存在多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9281.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9300.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
6個月 或者是直到這個院會這一期的任期結束調查委員會的職權範圍因為現在是說根據這個大法官的解釋是說必須要符合立法院的職權範圍那麼到底什麼是所謂立法院的職權範圍那麼以及其他一些複雜的問題包括調查委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9304.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9332.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
可不可以跟調查委員會進行的時候如果被調查的事項同時開啟了所謂的這個同時開啟了司法程序調查委員會的這個程序可不可以繼續進行調查委員會在調查的過程是不是可以到行政機關去進行訪視這個訪視對於行政機關會帶來什麼是要克與什麼樣的義務還是他是一個自願性質的那麼以及包括剛才所提到的保密的問題我不認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9334.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9357.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
保密是一個阻缺調查權的一個理由但是的確可以在這一方面做一些規範包括說不只是國家安全的問題也可能涉及到個人權利侵犯的問題這些我覺得都是可以進一步去規範那如果從這個角度這些問題來看的話可能我們需要一部單獨的法律來處理國會調查權的行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9361.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9380.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
而不是把它放在所謂目前的立法院職權行使辦法裡頭我認為這是一件非常嚴肅的事情這涉及到我們能不能擁有一個有牙齒的老虎但是這個絕對不是說有了牙齒就是對的而是這個牙齒能夠真的把壞人咬住 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9381.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9381.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
黃士傑律師發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9409.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9428.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
主席、各位委員、各位學者專家以及待場列席的各位官員還有北極先進大家早安我想在我的報告正式開始前我先回應一下剛才左教授有提到說民進黨的版本好像在今天的資料裡面沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9429.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9449.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
據我的了解應該是因為比較晚提出所以說還沒有正式的附委調查附委來審查所以應該在關係文書裡面應該已經有了所以可以再請學術專家們再把相關的版本找出來看一下提供我們更好的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9450.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9474.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那麼今天我想我們回到憲法的角度來談立法院的調查權當然剛剛有很多的學者專家跟委員的先進都已經去提到了很多號的大法官的釋字我們現在憲法法庭都已經對於立法院的調查權做出了非常多的明確的這些範圍的規範以及一些原則性的律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9478.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9485.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
但是我想後面還是有一個很根本性的問題我們在看各黨的版本在看了很多的討論之後會發現確實這個調查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9491.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9519.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我想在我國的法制裏面我剛才講的很清楚他是附隨的權利、輔助性的權利至少在憲法本領域裏面並沒有像監察權一樣直接說這個立法院有調查權所以他調查權是為了行使、履行他在憲法上明文規定他有的這些職責包含質詢、包含立法、包含預算的審查等等的這些規定、文士同意權等等這些職權的時候他可以來行使這個調查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9520.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9544.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那麼調查權呢 有但是呢 到底具體要怎麼樣來行使才不會違反其他很多憲法上的誡命包含正當法律程序包含對於這個權力侵害的救濟以及包含對於這個什麼樣行使的範圍都需要有法律做更細節的規定這也是為什麼我們今天在這邊大家來探討這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9546.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9558.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
關於立法院職權行使法甚或未來如同剛才左教授有說對於這個調查程序的行使呢要有一個專法來定的話呢應該要符合哪些原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9559.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9587.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
因為我們就要來思考說從這個憲法的角度來看權力分立與制衡可以說在憲法的前半政府組織這一塊是非常重要的一個原則所以我們在討論這些問題的時候我們應該要去思考說當我們讓立法院開始行使他的調查權的時候他跟其他憲法機關的權力之間的關係是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9588.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9604.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
譬如說我們現在還是有監察院雖然說各個政黨之間對於考試院監察院到底要五權還是要三權現在有很多不同的立場但是我們的現行法裡面還是有監察院而且我們對於古典的權力分離理論 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9606.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9608.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
立法院職權行使法相關法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9625.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9642.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
所以在賦予他們的這個工具跟這個機關的組成人員的訓練其實還有需要進行的這些震盪法律程序都有個別不同的屬性跟規範所以我們現在面臨這個新的問題如果立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9643.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9662.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
要用這個合一制機關要來行使調查權的時候是不是還是跟原本的立法權的行使是一樣的也就是說沒有任何的實體的條件沒有任何的程序的規範只要大家開會決議或是黨團協商說好就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9663.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9679.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
或是透過表決可以就可以我覺得如果我們是這種方式來立法的話我覺得會有相當大的疑慮而且對於啟動這個調查權之後不管是要調閱文件也好或是要傳喚證人 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9682.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9682.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9699.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9726.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
立法權可以有如司法權一樣這樣子來針對個案來做這樣子的調查而且呢後續的這個救濟像我們做司法的話我們做出一個決定他還有審計還可以上訴還有後面的救濟的可能性但是我們現在看到很多的版本裡面我們啟動這個調查程序其實就是一個政治決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9727.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9741.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
做出一個結論也是政治決定到底後面要去做出處罰嗎還是說所謂的公佈真相有拘束力嗎還是說他後面有什麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9742.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9768.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
對應的法律效果其實我們看不太清楚所以我是認為說在很多這些調查權機關的本質因為立法院它還有一個屬性它可以說是政治的其中的地方立法院就是政黨之間政治攻防的核心它跟司法權、監察權所行使的調查權背後的目的常常帶有很不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9770.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9797.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
沒有一個經過訓練或是說有一套整完整的法律去規定說到底這些權利可以怎麼行使所以我們是希望說如果真的立法院的調查權要能夠定好上位的這個憲法的問題如何去劃分權利跟權利之間的這個界限跟範圍希望要有一個更細緻的討論跟規定以及在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9799.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9815.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
行使的過程裏面看到很多人在討論說是不是應該擴及除了對政府機關公務機關之外還要擴張到私人的部分我相信這個在保障人權上面也是一個非常值得探討的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9816.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9841.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
因為目前為止我們沒有看到一個很完整的對於立法院司法調查權針對私人的機關的時候他如果他要拒絕或是他要主張他的權利的時候後面接下來的救濟程序也好或是說他可以怎麼樣來主張這些東西其實我們都相當的有疑慮所以有很多的這些規定我們認為或許 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9843.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9858.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
第1個專法經過更長的時間大家及時廣獄來討論寫一個更好的版本而不是糾結於各政黨之間互相在攻擊說你以前提過什麼版本或是民進黨以前提過什麼版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9860.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9880.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
公聽會提過什麼版本 其實如果要追溯的話既然大法官在4至325 4至585都已經有提過了所以過去草案的版本一定非常的多但是為什麼一直都沒有辦法順利把它制定出來就是我們剛剛所在爭論的這些憲法上根本的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9882.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9903.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
一直沒有辦法得到一個解決所以過去這麼多的版本都沒有真正能夠三讀通過國會的改革是一個制度性的我們需要非常的謹慎來做這個處理所以我們希望說呢不是只是在互相的說以前你們說什麼我們應該往未來看如果真正讓國會擁有這個調查權之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9905.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9905.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
陳鵬光律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9935.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9958.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
主席還有各位先進那很榮幸能夠參與今天的一個公聽會那今天其實是2024年在20年前也就2004年是大法官釋字585號作成那我當時也很榮幸有參與那一場的一個憲法辯論那只是想不到20年後今天還要再討論這個立法權的一個界限的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9960.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9979.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
今天提到有四大問題,因為時間的關係,我想先針對最後一個問題,特別是有關人民是不是會成為國會或說立法調查權的一個對象的部分,我想要特別一方面我是專家學者,一方面我想我也是一個人民,從人民的身份來做一些提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9980.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9998.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那首先當然在這個4至585號的一個解釋裡面有提到這個國會在行使調查權的時候他在一定的一個範圍內可以對這個人民跟官員他去施以這樣的一個行政的一個罰款然後來促使這個國會調查權的一個實踐但是呢在該號解釋的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10008.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10027.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
一部分的協同跟一部分不同意見書就是由許玉秀大法官裡面他有提出一個很重要的一個觀點他提到這一部分的一個立法的一個調查權它本質上是一個政治的一個鬥爭而人民他有不表意的一個自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10027.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10055.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
他並沒有配合政黨去做政治宣傳的一個義務也因此所謂的一個國會調查權他可以去請人民來做一些配合來調查但是他的範圍不應該是一個一般性的一個義務也就是說縱使要去就國會的一個調查權去加以立法但是他也必須比較細緻的就一定的一個事項範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10057.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10057.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10075.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10094.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
行政法環的正當性在此同時當然人民他有他固有的一些基本權包括隱私包括秘密等等那這些他固有的一個抗辯應該也要都同時被賦予保障那也因此剛剛有專家學者或有些委員有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10095.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10095.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
國會的調查權與立法的聽證權 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10123.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10150.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
這兩個到底的關係為何似乎也不是很明確那特別是目前看到版本強調所謂的一個立法的一個聽證那這部分它的一個整個的設計是不是有所謂的準司法的一個性質在這邊恐怕也是有一些它的一個疑義因為那這樣的話等於是是不是有混淆了這個立法權跟司法權的一定的一個界限 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10151.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10151.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
提供第三個問題的部分對於受備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10163.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10165.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
立法院職權行使法相關法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10182.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10184.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
公聽委員．立法院職權行使法相關法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10199.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10227.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
被受強制處分的這樣的一個可能性這恐怕可以再去思考那當然釋字585號解釋是肯定說是可以施以行政罰緩但是如果從剛剛所談到先把67條的文字搭配釋字585號的一個文藝他講的是行政罰緩那這時候是不是還能夠進一步擴張到用刑法行事責任的部分這恐怕在憲政上 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10227.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10227.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
法律明確性問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10246.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10273.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
提供第二題的一個部分就所謂的立法院的人事的一個同意權我想就這部分首先想要去提醒的是人事同意權是對人的部分在行使同意這跟對事在進行調查權的一個行使恐怕是不同目前看到的委員的版本是不是把這個被提名人要行使同意權的這個對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10275.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10277.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
提供相關資料﹑資料範圍之廣﹑沒有對人民的隱私權的平衡畢竟在被提名人被任命以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10290.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10318.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
他本身至少就被提名的職位而言他還是處於一個人民的關係嘛所以在這種情況之下他是不是有那個一個義務那被這個要求去提供相關的這些個人的一個資料那乃至於說他做一個被提名的人還是處於一個人民跟國家的一個關係對於他在這個提名過程中的尋答甚至說不同意甚至說這不回答或等等的還要對他加以處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10319.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10346.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這部分恐怕也是有它的一個疑慮所在所以這部分就是說可能在這個同意權的一個行使上如果最後最嚴重的結果應該是國會、立法院他可以本與他的職權就不同意這樣的人事的一個命令不同意這樣一個人事的提名 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10346.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10367.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
所以在這種情況之下應該就是最嚴重的一個制裁那是不是還有必要要對一個被提名人在當時還處於一個人民跟國家關係去刻以一個行政的一個罰款等等的一個處罰那這部分恐怕也值得再省思最後就提剛第一題的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10370.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10378.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
委員會專家及教授提到總統是直接對於人民負責這部分徵修條文明確並不是對立法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10384.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10401.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
總統並沒有到立法院來做國情報告的義務,也因此說要把它常態化,甚至有些版本是規定成總統應到立法院來報告,這部分是不是符合憲法的一個架構恐怕也是有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10402.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10429.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那既然都沒有報告的義務那更何況說如果來報告還要用疾問疾答那這時候所謂的報告跟質詢跟備詢的區別恐怕已經有脫離了憲法的一個原意那因為這部分畢竟憲法它就它在67條是用備詢嘛那在徵修條它是用所謂的一個報告所以應該是有意的一個區別以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10432.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10434.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
謝謝陳大律師那我們接下來請洪夢凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10441.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10470.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
主席各位與會先進大家好我想今天非常感謝我們的召委召開啟動國會改革立法院職權行使法相關法案的公聽會其實不管是剛剛從一開始本席在辦公室或者是說在現場聆聽各位先進的一個意見我想追根究底大家的方向其實還是趨於一致就是大家可能都某部分同意我們需要進行國會改革只是大家爭論的部分在於是怎麼改 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10470.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10497.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
還有說怎麼改會符合現況以及符合各自的一個想法或者是初衷我不想去談說每一次這個不同的黨派有做這個政黨輪替的時候就開始有各自政黨的版本大家也都看到過去我們在立法院這幾次的一個這個委員會的一個諮詢的時候也都有拿出過去之前不同黨派立場的版本但我只想提的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10498.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10524.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我在2020年2月1號進入到立法院第10屆擔任藍營最年輕的立法委員及第11屆的委員的時候其實某種程度上我們心中都還是有針對五權分立的一個理想性我們希望中華民國是長治久安我們希望能夠建立一個可長可久的制度也因此過去我們認為說法令有所不足的地方我們也希望現在能夠慢慢的把它補齊 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10525.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10550.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
在現在國會越來越趨近所謂的這種可能大家看到媒體報導或是說相關的這些影片可能比較都是衝突性的畫面或說比較都是爭議性的畫面但是實際上在國會的運作裡面其實大多數的時間都還是真真正正站在民意的立場上面好好監督行政部門也因此怎麼樣能夠讓立法院職權行使法能夠更精進讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10552.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10579.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
立法權跟行政權區域一致能夠立法權真正代表民意來監督行政權我想這是站在國家長治久安的一個方面來去做思考所以本期我們比較著重我自己個人比較著重在就是國情報告總統國情報告一個常態化以及行政部門來立法院備詢的時候如果說提供不實的資料偽證以及立法權是不是能夠有增加調查權的部分來去做精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10580.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10604.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
首先總統的國情咨文常態化其實主要是補足於責任政治的不足從1996年開始的民選總統我們到目前為止很多國人都會講是說行政院長是我們最高的行政首長但是大家也都知道真正的權力是掌握在總統手上人民一票一票選出來總統但是總統在過去不管是藍營執政不管是綠營執政 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10605.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10605.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10631.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10659.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
立法院我們最高的民意機關也就是向國人來去做一個報告至少要讓國人瞭解你的施政方向你的一個治國理念讓全體國人能夠好好的當作是人民的一個頭家能夠真真正正的來瞭解總統必須要帶領國家的一個方向另外我們也看到在過去期間其實行政部門很多時候變成是規避立法權的一個監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10660.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10677.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
尤其是在我們質詢的時候或是總質詢的時間有時間的限制其實看到很多行政官員居然是以拖時間的心態來去規避或者是迴避立法委員的一個質詢甚至有提供不實的資料我們就說我不希望用 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10678.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10694.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
政治鬥爭這四個字變成是行政部門規避監督的藉口就如同過去我們很常看到有一些時候政治攻防講不贏的時候只要扣人家紅帽子只要扣人家說你是中共同路人就可以規避監督或者就可以合理化自己的行為嗎?我不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10696.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10722.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
也因此我強強調的是如果說行政部門在立法院在接受人民的一個質詢的時候接受立法院質詢的時候有做不實的回應甚至是易用資訊不對等一個情況來去回答是是而非或說回答不正確的一個答案的時候當然應該要接受處分當然應該要負起相關的責任當然應該要有相關的刑責或是罰款來去做一個規範過去的疫情 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10725.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10750.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
快篩的採購弊案 雞蛋的一個弊案或者是說疫苗的合約其實每每看到當行政部門不願意提供相關資料的時候只要扣一個政治鬥爭的紅帽子政治鬥爭的大帽子難道就可以規避難道就可以掩蓋真相嗎所以最後我想三個部分這一些都是我們必須也希望能夠在這一次討論的時候把它給完善化 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10751.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10753.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
建立長治久安的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10766.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10793.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
總有一天我們擔任立法委員的角色也會離開總有一天行政官員也會離開總有一天政黨也有可能輪替但是今天我們可以希望在透過這個公聽會以及接下來的修法過程裡面我們不帶政黨利益色彩而真的是以台灣2350萬人以及中華民國的長久制度來去好好修法希望我們共同能夠完善立法院職權行使法以及相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10795.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10795.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
國會改革的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10822.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10823.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
公聽會．立法院職權行使法相關法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10839.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10839.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10857.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10857.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
週一 才進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10872.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10901.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
所以這個部分我今天就先在上午的公聽會先做宣告那當然我也是希望藉由讓那個因為民進黨團一直希望說他在禮拜一的時候他一直希望說能夠再召開公聽會他認為一次的公聽會不足那既然下個禮拜我剛剛看了鍾佳濱委員已經有召開兩場公聽會我想這個對於民主制度民主精神以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10902.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10929.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
各政黨之間的溝通和諧都是一個很好的方向一個很好的發展所以我這邊做這個決定再請各黨團的助理通知黨團所屬的本會委員就是如上剛剛的宣告我們再補充介紹東海大學 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10930.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10946.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
東海大學法律系法律研究所林藤耀教授國立台灣藝術大學通識教育中心葛傳宇主任接下來我們請陳一鳴律師發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10959.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10980.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
趙偉現場的專家學者還有夜襲機關的代表大家午安那今天的四個提綱雖然說是在立法院的這個地方討論但是我想這四個議題都不會只是單單的立法層次技術的問題其實都涉及到了憲法的層次 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10981.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11009.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
為什麼這樣講呢?大家都希望國會能夠改革執行的程序或者是調查的程序能夠更完備但是這個過程當中都還是會涉及到不只是機關跟機關之間的互動還包含了甚至人民也有可能進來參與整個調查程序人民的權利怎麼保障在這個過程當中其實也是非常值得注意的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11011.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11036.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
首先第一個總統赴立法院來國情報告是不是應該常態化還有他應該怎麼樣進行的程序我覺得我們都不應該忽視就是我們的憲法有它特殊之處那在我們的憲法裡面確實徵修條文裡面也確實就是規定說總統得到立法院來進行報告他是用得的這個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11038.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11054.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
看起來立法院並沒有一個強制的地位可以邀請總統來所以如果我們在立法院的職權行使法裡面如果直接就規定說總統應到立法院報告或者是說就規定說總統應該進行急問急答 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11058.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11058.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11076.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11090.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
立法院行使人事同意權的時候那是不是應該可以召開聽證會的這個程序我們從目前各個黨團或者是個別委員提出來的這個草案的版本裡面其實我們可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11091.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11116.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
公聽會跟聽證會其實是屬於不同的程序而且對於這個程序所要求的強度是有不同的公聽會它的組織其實相對鬆散然後你沒有一定要到場的義務但是就聽證會它其實要求的強度是比較高的它可以要求你強制要到場甚至有陳述的義務不陳述會有處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11118.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11142.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那在進行人事權這件事情上面是不是可以一定要求說要進行聽證會的程序我覺得有一個地方值得思考的是當行政機關提名一個候選人他要到立法院來進行同意的時候呢如果我們要廣邀相關的人來做意見的陳述 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11144.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11166.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我其實不能理解的是作為一個人民就一個第三人假設我是被邀請來陳述意見的人就一個第三人一個被提名者他的官位能不能夠成功的獲選這件事情對一個第三人來講有重要到他一定要到這裡來接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11167.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11168.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
職權行使法相關法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11197.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11225.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
再用心一點跟民眾做溝通因為民眾就這件事情我認為現在普遍沒有辦法去區別所謂的公聽跟聽證有什麼不同這是我就第二點的部分要做說明那第三點復立法院備詢的人選若拒絕答覆或提供不提供資料或做不實的虛偽陳述等等那就這部分是不是也要科與任何的刑事責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11227.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11252.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
其實剛才很多先進都有提到說四支585號四支585號裡面其實有一個很重要的說明也就是說立法院可以行使調查權他可以邀請相關的人到立法院來做說明提供資料但是不提供的時候或者是不配合的時候他的法律效果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11253.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11256.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
立法院職權行使法相關法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11276.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11279.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
各黨團的版本有一個小小的地方需要思考與補儲不管採取刑事手段或刑政手段 要用罰款的方式 後面的救濟程序要怎麼進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11299.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11316.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
如果你是用罰還的方式後面可以思考的兩種途徑是一個是直接在立法院這邊有一個訴願委員會去做訴願另外一個是直接到行政法院去做行政就計的動作如果我們是要用訴願的方式在目前立法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11318.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11345.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
組織的編制上面我們是不是有足夠的訴願委員我們是不是有足夠的幕僚單位可以去配合這件事情那如果沒有的話那我們就貿然的說啊你不到場那或者是你拒絕拿詢那我就採取所謂的罰還那後面民眾權力的救濟他在成為一個被質詢的人不管他是官員或者是一般的民眾第三人他到場來接受質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11346.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11349.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
國會行使調查權的正當性及法制化有什麼還值得思考之處?國會的調查權從歷次的大法案解釋不管是 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11374.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11398.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
三二五號五八五號或者是七二九號其實都很重要的揭示了幾個很核心的部分第一個就是權力要分立權力不能夠互相干擾到導致國家不能夠正常運作那第二個是呢人民的權力要受到保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11399.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11425.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
所以剛才才會提到說 如果我們在行使調查權的過程當中認為說我要有一定的強制力 或者是剛才有委員提到說立法院不能夠是紙老虎 要有牙齒但是不能夠傷到壞人 不能夠傷到好人那在這樣的情況下面 我們就要有一套完整的程序去回應或保障人民的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11426.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11434.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
那再來為什麼提到說權力要分立呢我們在585號裡面有提到說有所謂的行政特權 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11435.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11436.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11462.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11463.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
黃仁俊助理教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11490.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11506.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家好以下我就今天的這個公聽會的提綱然後簡要的報告這次的內容那首先在第一題的部分總統是不是要附立法院國情報告這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11507.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11535.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
從李登輝總統跟郝柏村行政院長的時候我們就已經開始談論這個問題了這個問題是一個很冗長的問題為什麼會有這樣的問題的存在主要是中央政府體制就是曖昧不明我們的憲政體制在實踐上就會有在總統制跟半總統制擺盪的情形總統在權力分立或分權制衡的時候都是很難界分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11535.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11561.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
他有時候總統想要站在第一線有時候他又退回到第二線不過呢從現行的條文來解釋的話憲法徵修條文第4條第3項他確實有說立法院於每年集會時得聽取這個總統國情報告不過現在並沒有成為一個憲政管理我們現在朝野互動的機制或朝野協商的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11562.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11585.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
只有在立法院的朝野黨團協商嘛那缺乏了什麼?缺乏總統跟立法院相互之間有一個互動的機制嘛那如何促進這樣的互動的機制呢?如何促進這樣的互動機制?我們先來看憲法的徵修條文我們憲法徵修條文第三條行政院長由總統任命 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11586.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11613.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
第3條第2項又說行政院對立法院負責有質詢的權利立法院有質詢的權利那行政院長如果有不信任案的話可以通過的話總統要解散立法院這樣就形成一個政治僵局的雙重毀滅嘛行政院長跟立法院跟總統形成了一個政治僵局 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11614.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11627.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
政治僵局下就會形成一個雙重毀滅其實我們可以想想其實總統跟立法院是有合作的在現行的法制下或現行的實踐成果下向總統府舉行國慶典禮是由立法院來擔任國慶籌備委員會的主任委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11635.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11651.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
那未來這個法制化的設計除了說由這個總統副立法院國情報告的話我們還可以另外思考就是我們這個宣誓的時候總統宣誓或520就職的時候能不能也來立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11652.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11668.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
特別是在總統副總統宣誓條例上他只有說中央政府所在地那我們可不可以思考一下讓總統來立法院就職來宣誓就職讓這個原本是政黨候選政黨當選人的政黨推薦總統當選人變成一個全民的總統這樣的這個條文的設計我是參考啦參考同樣也是辦總統制的這個奧地利奧地利憲法第38條第39條就是這樣的設計嘛讓總統跟立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11681.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11695.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
有一個這樣的合作模式讓這個我們現在人民在總統大選跟這個立法院選舉都是在同一場大選中選出來同一張選票只是可能同一份選票不同的不同張的選票 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11696.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11714.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
能不能有一個良性的互動不管是在立法院間接民主或是總統直選的直接民主這樣的選制設計上讓間接民主跟直接民主有一個交融的機會讓總統在立法院宣誓 發表就職甚至是 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11715.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11743.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
演說,這樣就是可以等於是這個總統也可以像是總統國情報告的一環之一能不能有這樣的這個常識這也是未來在法制設計上可以去思考的那不論是朝小野大或朝大野小都是有這個全民總統的期許或者是自許那對於有這樣的憲政慣例或者這樣的這個總統會來立法院的這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11746.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11750.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
的想像之後呢我們再來談一問一答及問及答跟統問統答的問題現行呢憲法徵修條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11754.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11755.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
職權行使法相關法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11785.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11795.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
後面總統發表完之後然後由各個黨來這個投票的選投票站不站成他的國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11796.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11819.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
認不認可他的國會報告之外呢我這裡想要提出一個新的這個想法或建議其實我們可以每年對於這個立法院委員來評鑑優良的委員評鑑優良的三位委員可以在國情報告的口頭國情報告後進行口頭的回應那可以展現一下這個理性問政的風氣使這個大院的理性風氣更為興盛然後第二題關於現在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11825.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11852.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
立法院行使人事同意權要不要予以裁法我們之前也有看過提名同意權的時候要不要擴大先前總統在行使同意權像是司法院大法官或司法院院長的時候也有提名省界小組的事前做法事後其實立法院也可以參考這樣的設計擴大邀集各界人士形成一個雙重法官的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11853.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11874.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
特別是我們先前就有一些先前有案例就是司法正副院長重新提名的事件風波如果有更完善的實質聽證制度就可以避免流於刑事至於說要不要有虛偽不實受提名的審查人要不要有裁法或刑法刑事責任的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11874.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11877.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
公職人員的財產申報法也是走這樣的行政法規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11895.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11904.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
如果提名人有虛偽或提供不實資訊現行法已經有這個行事的偽造文書或是公務人員登載不實有相關的法制可以進行行事的訴追 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11906.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11911.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
質詢權 質詢權經常被在野黨或小黨作為議事抗爭的有效工具現行立院質詢的場面經常是高聲辱罵或甚至咆哮火爆的場景實在不是不時 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11925.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11950.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
實在不是憲政的慘鬼啦那針對這樣的憲政慘鬼是不是要發動國家刑法權我個人是有所保留的我個人認為是用行政科則或行政法這個行政法環的便宜足夠然後再一下移送如果移送減掉的話這個關於國會藐視藐視國會的這個概念定義會有政治上的困境然後在後續的行政訴訟或行事訴訟也會產生這個交錯的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11953.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11983.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
所以在制度設計上一是強調行政科則、質詢權、調查權跟監察的彈劾權相互配套是較為妥善那最後一個現在這個調查權的部分釋之五八五已經有所明示不過對於更仔細的規範其實是要有一個相對應的完善的法制因為這個五八五已經是20年前20年後如果有一個相對應的法制是更值得借鏡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11989.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12001.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
現行的草案以專法的形式對照像德國有國會調查委員會執行法對比現行的法案可能會有一些少數黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12003.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12028.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
團 成立調查委員會能不能成立的問題以及國會調查的憲政爭議可不可以在裏面有一個條文是可以直接提起憲法訴訟的救濟途徑對於整個憲政分際的爭議以及國會調查會產生的密件密等的以及私人的地方可不可以有一個條文讓法院來相關的定奪最後是否要準用這個刑事訴訟的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12028.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12028.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
聖信源教授發言請上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12054.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12055.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
主席以及在座的大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12085.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12105.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我是政治學者,所以說我會比較從政治的角度來看這個事情。回顧過去,我發現到立法院其實經過了幾波的重要的改革。每一次這個重要的改革,都是在草野的席次相距不是太大的時候。 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12107.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12123.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
第一波改革是在第三屆的屆末1999年1月第二波的國會改革是在2002年的1月都是在草野其實相差不是太多的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12134.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12154.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
提供了國會進行改革的一個非常好的機會這一波的國會改革我想大家可能都把焦點其實是放在國會怎麼樣對行政加以監督的這個角度來看關於這個我覺得當然是非常的重要而且非常的有必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12156.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12174.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
過去有一個非常重要的立法學者,楊日清教授他認為因為立法院對行政權監督的效率不彰因此立法院可以說起來像是一個跛腳國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12178.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12179.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
立法院職權行使法相關法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12199.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12199.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12220.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12244.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
立法史上其實有幾次但是我們知道說那些是提過幾次但是真的都沒有過所以我要說的是其實就倒閣權來講會被提的倒閣權倒閣案其實是不會過的那真的會過的人就一定不會提出來所以倒閣權說句實話是不好用的一個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12255.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12263.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
如果說朝小野大,如果說執政黨掌握很多的立委席次的話,其實他的一個問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12275.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12302.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
可能因為他掌握了穩定的國會多數所以說有的時候行政官員可能會對於立法院的這個質詢其實不是非常的用心可能有點掉以輕心或者是說當立法委員向行政機關索取一些相關的資料的時候行政機關有的時候好像是有點三催四起這都看起來就是說目前的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12304.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12332.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
立法院的行政監督權其實是很不彰的所以是有需要去很好的去加強的那今天我就這個主題其實我大概就討論兩個重點第一個就是說有關於這個立法院的調查權的問題那當然我想在座的還有這個很多的這個立法院的提案其實我們都知道說立法院的調查權確實有它的必要那但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12333.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12354.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
自從5.25釋字解釋出來之後其實已經經過20年的時間到現在都還沒有把它法制化那為什麼呢?我想是因為其實就是大家對於立法院有調查權這件事其實有比較多的疑慮所以到現在它還沒有正式的法制化 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12357.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12371.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所以 調查權正式的法制化當然有其必要那個內容應該是什麼我仔細的看一下這個4-585我發現其實它對於相關的內容講得非常的清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12373.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12397.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我提供了一點書面的資料 大家可以參考那我要簡單的來講就是說其實4585號對於立法院行使調查權的解釋其實是很清楚他已經講到說本期固有之權能自得享有一定之調查權立法院調查權乃立法院行使其憲法之權所必要之輔助性權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12401.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12408.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
對於調查權可以行使的範圍和限制585上也講得很清楚遇到爭議要怎麼處理調查權的行使方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12414.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12429.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
其實585號其實都有做了非常詳盡的一個解釋那我覺得呢 這個大院呢 它的主要的做法應該就是說 怎麼樣將這個解釋文 然後把它給法制化成為這個 就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12430.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12430.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
可以去實際應用的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12456.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12459.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
《立法院職權行使法案》 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12487.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12511.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
那我想其實就是相關的一些規範在這個五八五四字其實已經非常的清楚我覺得可以往這個方向來走那可以做的 調查權可以做的部分其實很多我想到的 譬如說對於重大法案的制定的時候是不是可以召開周提會直接過很快 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12519.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12546.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
接著我還談另外一個問題我要談的問題是有關於總統赴立法院國情報告是不是應該常態化的問題對這個問題其實我的立場是我覺得不即問即答我當然也覺得是不為什麼理由因為基本上剛剛其實也聽了很多學者專家講基本上我們的制度其實是總統其實是沒有要對立法院負責的 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12547.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12574.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
要對立法院負責的是行政院所以說其實總統到立法院進行國情報告他是照徵修條文來講他是德他不是因那這個德其實他給了不管是總統或立法院其實都有一個自由衡量的空間那個衡量的空間不只是總統也是立法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12576.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12577.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
對不起好 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12581.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12589.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
好,那我要講的是其實在美國或是在法國施行總統的國情諮問權的這些國家他們施行的結果其實總統的國情諮問或國情報告從來不是國會權力的彰顯相反的其實是總統權力的彰顯因為在國情諮問的時候總統可以利用機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12607.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12607.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
總統國情報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12631.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12632.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
林騰耀教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12665.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12688.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
謝謝主席各位朋友大家午安我看今天這個公聽會都是聚焦在這個公聽會前半段就是立法院職權行使法相關法案這個問題其實國會的改革必須要了解立法院是什麼這個來龍去脈要知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12689.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12716.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
立法院承接了國民大會 跟監察院的很多職權但是在修憲的時候 根本沒有配套處理所以很多的職權 現在國會沒辦法 唯一的國會竟然不能行使調查權這不是天大的笑話嗎唯一的國會竟然可以被公然藐視大家還不生氣嗎今天這個啟動國會改革啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12719.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12746.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我要奉勸民進黨不要背離初衷八年多前你怎麼講的我要敬告這個藍白兩黨不要劃地制限應該重視國會 立法院是現在唯一的國會必須要捐錢他的機能我有很多文章在上面 如果大家可以參考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12747.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12771.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
所以我在這裡要公開的譴責蔡英文因為談到了國會改革你就會想到她講過多少話所以如果未來在憲政史上有人說她是敗壞國會機能的憲政女妖的話我相信有很多人會贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12772.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12801.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
現在我們講到蔡英文她怎麼講國會改革我的文章請大家參閱一下她說呢在2015年8月16號在高雄一個百公百業社團後援會受政大禮的時候她講的話她說民進黨不會因為有機會急政就排斥國會的制衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12802.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12829.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
國會對行政部門的監督力量一定要有力而專業好 但沒有做到他結果8年以後啊這個他當了總統他說他不會害怕國會監督因為我不會是一個獨斷獨行的總統也不會是一個季節民意的總統更不會是一個一黨之師的總統為父一黨之師的總統這句話全面顛倒 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12832.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12832.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
2015年12月8號 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12854.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12882.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
參議員在臨時書上表示 如果立法院不能透過制度性的改革真正落實人民的國會 開放的國會 專業的國會改革停滯 效力不彰的情況依然會一再上演 現在不是這個情況嗎他當了總統8年 現在不是這個情況嗎所以 我想 現在認為 國會改革必須要做的是什麼事情呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12883.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12911.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
必須要震衰起碧一定要重視立法院是唯一的國會人民應該要給他更多的權力因為只剩下一線生機了監察院等於是沒有了監察院已經不是民意機關了國民大會沒有了行政權掌握在總統手上老百姓沒有半分的武器只剩下立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12913.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12933.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
所以今天要振興立法院的這個機能必須要做到下面我講的幾點第一點 立法院一定要開會立法院不要再像今年繼續在鬼混9月1號就報到 報到就開始領薪水不開議是什麼意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12938.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12964.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
所以我這裡文章有寫給你一定是立法院執行法一定要明文規定9月1號報到那天就開始開議還在那邊演這個大進場國家已經到現在危難的情況之下還在演這個很多好戲所以第一個一定要認真的開會及時開會而且我寫文章寫過了68條很清楚啊你必須要怎麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12966.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12993.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
馬上開會而且不夠時間不夠時間的話就延長啊憲法有規定為什麼不能延長開會然後你會看到這個立法院的這個開會的人數真是好奇怪一般的社團是二分之一才能開會啊立法院的三分之一就可以開會這種條文還不改禍害非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12994.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13023.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
第三個就是很重要的立法院的職權的行使就是要辯論嘛 預算也沒辯論更可怕的是預算不依照時程去審議現在我的昨天年後報那篇文章已經寫得很清楚了113年度現在已經進行到現在第四個月預算法規定是在11月底去年的11月底就是要預決這個中央政府的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13025.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13045.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
現在中央政府的政府預算勉強在12月通過了但是最重要比中央政府預算多了兩倍的那個國營事業跟非營利基金的預算6兆2000多億現在還沒通過啊拖了4個月啊這個立法院第二次政黨輪替了這點還不講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13049.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13074.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
這些立法委員一定要知道、深深體會到自己是人民的代表你一定要行使人民對你重要的一個所賦予的權利另外很多的就是不只這個開會人數我這個也寫過了就是開會的程序開會的程序絕對不能夠亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13077.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13104.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
被亂調 現在有一個制度叫國事論壇 國事論壇在那邊講誰在聽啊 到現在幾個立委幾個法制委全部都不在每次的公聽會都是這個樣子 現在主席是立委 其他立委都不見了他有在聽嗎 我常常在上次已經講過了 不要把你們邀請的專家學者當作耍猴子在那邊耍 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13105.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13132.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
而且很多人呢今天來了以後我今天就很生氣看到全國有多少律師事務所啊為什麼只有萬國律師事務所有兩位在這裡啊我不曉得這是怎麼安排的啊所以這裡面會造成偏聽很多的立法委員必須要自己要去瞭解你在邀請的對象必須要能夠是不是廣納或是隨便政黨隨便推薦 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13134.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13139.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
你自己也去找啊 為什麼一定要聽政黨推薦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13140.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13168.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
所以很多的事情今天這個憲政教育很多事情非常重要有空我再講憲政的三個基礎一個就是公義政治一個是法治政治一個就是責任政治最要緊就是責任政治所以今天所有的問題一定要依照責任政治來處理邀請總統來或是行使調查權回復到責任政治的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13170.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13177.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
主席,各位先進,我是最後一位發言人,對不對?沒錯吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13197.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13222.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
有一位還在路上,看看有沒有辦法趕過來我盡快把他講完,希望大家趕快結束先暫停一下,就跟林教授報告一下因為今天其實有一些委員趕回他們的轄區因為今天早上地震,那有一些救災或有一些人真的都趕回去了還有助理,公聽會一定要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13231.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13233.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
尊重委員自己的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13234.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13257.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
好那接下來我們就請葛主任繼續好謝謝大家我非常榮幸有機會受邀來這我看到我以前我是新聞記者我都坐在最後一排那麼在這個立法院採訪了好多年後來我就風派到美國去了所以我今天特別從兩個角度分享第一個是我自己本身研究專長是反貪腐 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13259.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13264.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我曾在美國國會山莊採訪過五年的新聞記者沒有錯美國什麼都有聽證會認命說謊會處罰有偽證罪有藐視國會罪美國總統要到參眾兩院國情諮問什麼都有這些我們目前通通都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13286.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13305.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
但我並不是完全全盤接受以下我僅給各位提供幾個情況跟建議供各位參考尤其是我希望能夠跟最後一排的新聞記者同業我們一起分享千萬不要被政黨之間的惡鬥以及影響到我們從事這個新聞判斷的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13309.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13332.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
首先為各位介紹一個概念各位同學想想看各位先進一個想想看我們當老師當久了就是這種惡習老師喜歡講同學但是我們有一個好習慣我們不見得會準時上課但是我們會想辦法一定要準時下課或者是提前下課這是我給各位報告我的承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13333.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13342.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
各位想想看立法院總共有113位委員可是他們要監督的對象光是行政部門30多萬的公務員加上20萬的國軍就有50萬個文武官員113對50萬你怎麼監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13349.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13372.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
這會發生我們在學理上面叫做第一個資訊不對稱第二個叫資源不對稱這個是很難監督的所以實務上面在立法院就國會監督行政部門本來就有它先天失調的地方所以後天要不斷的透過法治化來改善這是第一個現象第二個現象我為各位舉一個實際的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13373.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13384.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我們現在國軍將領的任命案從小英之前前半段的每6個月晉升一次將領現在改成即任即升各位知道會發生什麼狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13386.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13386.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13405.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13424.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
各位想想看,如果這個機制沒有了之後呢我們是不是必須要增加立法院對高階將領或高階文官的聽證的任命人事任命的這個才能夠延長,延長就是這個一個緩衝期我們知道他到底是不是任,他有沒有出什麼問題,否則的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13426.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13440.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
各位想想看,七星將軍,那個司業案的七星將軍騙了還可以升少將燒了那個幾千萬現金的那個軍備局的少將,一樣可以升將軍啊為什麼?因為各位想想看,將來的例子只會層出不窮 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13442.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13463.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
另外一個跟主席有關,主席是檢察官出身,非常資深優秀的檢察官各位知道我們現在歷任廉政署長通通都是檢察官出身可是你知道我做過研究發現,我們連前面幾任檢察官每一任檢察官在政風人員的評價裡面,這是我做的研究是逐年遞減 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13465.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13488.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
各位想想看,檢察官把廉政署長當成一個五日經照的過水的地方可是政風人員卻對他的評價是逐年遞減這個不是發生很奇怪的現象嗎?檢察官照理說他跟法官一樣都同門師兄弟,都是非常難考的優秀人員可是為什麼一旦進到那個衙門去了以後反而得不到下屬的尊重跟肯定呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13490.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13508.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
如果說聯政署長可以到立法院來接受人事上面的聽證審查的話是不是可以在這方面讓政風人員以及其他的新聞記者從旁監督讓他能夠獲得比較適合的任命當然還有一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13510.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13522.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
我要給各位報告的就是立法院的監督常常不到位為什麼剛剛報告過了資訊不對稱跟資源不對稱我舉個例子也是跟主席有關各位知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13523.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13546.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
我們每年都會做委託學者做叫做聯政指標調查也就是說就我們臺灣的26類公務員的清廉度排名清廉度排名做這個調查不曉得主席您知不知道這個事情26類公務員這個民意調查是公布在聯政署的官網上面可是各位要知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13547.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13576.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
公布歸公布每年照樣委外而且這個學者都很厲害都很有名這是我們國內的專家專家裡面的專家可是聯政署拒絕讓這26類公務員的排名出現在那個網路裡面主席您知道為什麼嗎因為檢察官跟法官在26類公務員的排名逐年降低他覺得自己面目上掛不去所以他就拒絕讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13579.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13603.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
各位想想看,資訊我們有,但是有沒有透明,不透明。資訊有沒有到位,不到位。各位想想看,其實檢察官不需要那麼難過,為什麼?因為在這26位公務員裡面,檢察官跟法官本來是並列的,在前段班,後來慢慢慢慢掉下來。這幾年有一個明顯的現象,法官掉得特別明顯,檢察官其實沒有那麼差,要有自信。 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13605.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13623.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
這告訴我們其實資訊的不對稱到處都存在我今天因為時間有限我想說我給各位直接提出兩個我自己的建議供各位參考第一個是要怎麼樣解決國會的調查權的問題還有國會的立法委員行使職權是不是要擴權的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13631.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13637.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
這個其實不是我們法律能夠解決的是要政治協商就是政治解決也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13639.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13667.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
有沒有可行是透過政黨協商用最小限度的方式來強化目前的國會的國會的調查權以及立法委員的職權我再講一次透過政黨協商來最小限度的增加注意是最小限度的增加比如說舉例來講具體來講像是國會這個調閱資料權是不是可以加上明確的法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13668.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13696.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
也就是說把調查權法制化第二個呢就是想辦法是不是能夠透過讓舉行這個叫做聽證會尤其是高階文武官員聽證會加入了作證有罰則就是偽證罪處罰作證偽證但是不處罰不說話因為你有保持緘默的權利就是言論自由嘛第二點呢也是我覺得特別要給各位在座新聞同業建議的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13697.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13716.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我們千萬要注意立法委員行使職權是power不是right他是權力力量的力既然是權力我們特別要在法治國家裡面特別重視要選擇最小成本最低限度的授權還有避免國會濫用公權力 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13719.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13744.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
這三點很重要為什麼呢?他不是RightRight 你可以自我放棄你如果是Power的話就表示你是你的公權力這是你的法定職長法定職長應該是越低最小限度越能夠越能夠避免國會濫權同時呢又能夠給他賦予正當的法律權限來扶國立民以下是我簡單的報告謝謝大家好 謝謝葛主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13747.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13748.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13769.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13771.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
主席、各位女士、各位先生大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13793.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13821.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
貴委員會今天舉行：啟動國會改革：立法院職權行使法相關法案的公聽會邀請了學者專家當中有對國會事務長期關注研究的學者也有國會參與實務經驗的前立法委員相信可以帶給本院很寶貴的參考意見以下僅就本次公聽會所涉及的議題簡要說明如下第一有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13823.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13843.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
總統國情報告是否常態化及進行的方式依據憲法增修條文第4條第3項及立法院職權行使法第二章之一聽取總統國情報告的規定立法院在每年的集會時得聽取總統國情報告有關立法院邀請總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13844.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13864.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
自立法院國情報告之期程現行第15條之二第一項已經有明定他的期程安排由程序委員會來排定雖然目前尚未見有總統自立法院進行國情報告的實例但是相信在本院的共識下完成修法後我們樂見 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13865.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13894.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
未來總統均能常態性來本院進行國情報告增加與國人及全體國民溝通管道與機會至於總統國情報告的提問程序是否比照過去國民大會對總統國情報告的建言採綜合說明的方式進行或者是參考美國及法國的國情之文的實施經驗先不採用及時詢答的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13895.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13901.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
或因應我國國情需要另採行不同的問答模式仍有待委員共事來決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13904.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13929.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
有關立法院行使人事同意權是否召開聽證會並對被提名人不實陳述者予以裁罰的部分目前憲法未接的同意權案全院委員會審查前事務上會先經朝野協商決定行使同意權相關事務及時程表並舉行公聽會而法律未接的同意權案 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13930.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13949.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
則或經協商或由主責的常設委員會召集委員主導排案審查不以舉行公聽會為必要未來本院行使人事同意權是否一律召開公聽會對被提名人虛偽不實陳述的法律效果或施以裁罰參照各國國會規範或實務做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13953.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13968.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
均有不同,也希望聆聽學者專家更多寶貴的意見第三,被質詢人拒絕出席答覆不提供資料或為虛偽不實陳述,應否負起刑事責任的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13970.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13991.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
外國採內閣制或混合制國家﹐法制上雖賦予了國會議員的執行權﹐為政府官員如有反執行或是詢問虛打的情形﹐對之尚無苛處法律刑責的明文﹐主要是透過公報記錄或錄影轉播向社會公開﹐以追究相關的政治責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13993.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14017.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
至於國會聽證調查是屬於準司法程序有關對於違反協助調查義務者施以的強制手段學者間各有不同的看法特別是對於4-585號的解釋內容學者都有不同的看法因此這一個部分仍有不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14019.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14034.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
屬於立法形成的自由有待各位委員討論以後再凝聚共識第四點國會行使調查權正當性其範圍界限及人權的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14035.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14063.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
各國政府因為體制不同：國會制度設計也有所區別藉由本次召開公聽會相信各專家學者可提供其他國家的立法力作為我國修法的參考在廣納各界意見並凝聚共識後使本次的修法更增周延基於行政幕僚的立場我們尊重貴委員會舉辦公聽會以及就相關議案審查結果的意見也會依最終院會決議的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14065.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14081.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
配合處理相關行政資源工作,以使本院職權行使更為順遂以上說明,敬請指教,謝謝好,謝謝那我們接下來請行政院做補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14098.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14114.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
主席、各位委員、女士先生、學者專家今天貴委員會召開《啟動國會改革─立法院職權行使法相關法案》公聽會本院應邀列席深感榮幸謹就所列的討論提綱提供意見如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14117.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14141.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
一、立法院職權行使法系規範貴院行使憲法所賦予的職權之法律有關討論提綱二、部分委員提案徵訂本院部會首長新任官員經全體委員三分之一以上之連署或附議由院會一決得就其人士進行聽證之規定部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14143.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14163.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
本院所屬政務人員憲法上規定是由本院的院長提請總統任命之倘增列有關聽證程序恐對本院之人事決定權產生影響是否符合憲法權利分立與制衡的原則敬請慎著 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14165.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14184.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
有關討論提綱2,這個部分依據憲法第57條第一款規定本院有向貴院提出施政方針及施政報告之責立法委員在開會時有向本院院長及各部會首長質詢之權 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14186.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14214.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
行政及立法權分立各有權利義務因本質互相尊重合作之原則進行質詢與備詢的程序所以對備詢者採采法手段因為達成目的所必要採法的要件及標準均須明確以符憲法第23條之比例原則及法律明確性原則之要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14216.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14220.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
至於有關如何完善立法、虛偽作證或藐視等刑責責任事項一節參酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14225.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14248.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
司法院釋制第585號解釋意旨及憲法法庭113年度憲判制第一號判決意旨國家刑法權之行使應嚴格遵守憲法罪行法定原則且憲法所規定構成的要件應該以一般規範所理解及預見之標準解釋之 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14251.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14266.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
因此是否適合以刑法方式處罰 建起考量刑法牽涉性及最後手段的原則 審慎決定有關討論提案4的部分 那修訂聽證調查權跟原券調閱權的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14270.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14270.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
規定規定規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14286.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14307.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
司法院大法官的解釋文都有做相關的規定所以這個調查的範圍跟事項建議還是參照相關司法院解釋的規定在這三項解釋文發生的年代跨越不同的政黨且相關調閱權 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14310.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14332.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
跟調查員的行使均有一致的見解懇請貴院委員依循憲法精神為合憲妥適的修法決策以上意見敬請各位委員先進參考謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來請司法院補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14346.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14363.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家好今天奉邀到貴委員會就這個啟動國會改革立法院職權行使法相關法案來代表本院進行報告深感榮幸那以下呢請就本院的意見來加以說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14365.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14372.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
提綱① 總統至立法院進行國情報告及其方式的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14382.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14383.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
本院大法官是執掌 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14402.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14416.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
解釋憲法並且組成憲法法庭來行使審判權本院執司司法行政所以不移亦不變就此表示意見那關於提綱二立法院人事同意權的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14417.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14417.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
提綱三﹑四 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14435.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14462.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
立法院聽證及文件調閱權的部分那這是有關立法院行使調查權的部分那本院大法官就國會調查權跟這個調閱文件已經做成了釋字32585633跟729號等相關的解釋各該的解釋意旨可以供各位參考那以上報告敬請各位委員跟先進指教謝謝各位謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14466.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14472.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
請問在座各位機關代表有其他要補充的?沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14489.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14516.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那因為地震造成的那個交通影響那現在那個張其路教授他說話已經快到了那是不是因為他從哪裡高雄趕過來的那是不是我們休息五分鐘等這個張教授他跟我們聯繫他已經快到了五分鐘會到那我們就先休息五分鐘好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
15021.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
15047.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
接下來我們介紹到場的是國立中山大學政治經濟學系張其祿教授謝謝張教授今天一早7點多就從高雄出發那因為沿路高鐵開開停停所以這是蠻謝謝張教授過來的那我們接下來就是請張教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
15076.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
15102.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
非常謝謝謝謝我們召委那也感謝各位這個與會的專家學者還有各位行政官員大家早安很抱歉因為我是早上7點55出發整整那個高鐵因為地震的關係延誤三個小時很抱歉好那我想當然就是直接談到今天我想我們公聽會的這個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
15104.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
15129.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
其實就是關於所謂的到底總統是不是要到立法院來諮問或者是國情報告相關的方向其實個人也很榮幸過去在第10屆擔任立法委員我想這個議題其實也歷經了好幾任總統在談這個事情一直都沒有真的實踐 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
15130.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
15130.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
總統制 議會內閣制 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
15145.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
15159.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
當然我們也知道中華民國的憲法其實有點是把它一個混合所以我們的概念上是一個半總統制的這樣一個概念那總統如果說按照比較標準的這個美國的總統制的概念其實總統是直接向人民負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
15162.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
15188.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
行政跟立法之間議會內閣制的精神是展現在行政院跟立法院之間但是坦白說我們也長期在憲法加哥運作下我們也長期看到一個問題大家都認為總統是有權但是無責行政院長則是有責無權這個問題其實也一直希望能夠有所改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
15189.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
15192.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
但是我們也知道 如果真的是標準的總統制國家的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
15195.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
15217.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
如果是標準的總統制國家的話那當然這個總統他是定期的透過選舉來向人民負責他並不需要直接到所謂的這個國會那議會內閣制當然他是展現的是所謂的這個責任政治的這個精神所以其實他這個本質上是有很大的這個差距所以如果說我們要設計所謂的當然制度是人設計出來的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
15219.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
15220.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
15227.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
15251.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
他們大概也是接近總統過去做一個重大國情的表述等於說有點是演講那種性質而不是說去負責任政治所以在這個概念上我們可能要比較重新思考的反而是整個憲政的架構這可能是一個關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
15253.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
15255.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
公聽會：立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
15274.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
15277.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
國民黨和民進黨都表述過 如果真的要走向負責任的政治的話 整個憲政體制大架構的改變才是關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
15296.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
15311.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
不過當然現在我們也不能這樣去談這個因為坦白說修憲確實是幾乎在上一屆國會就已經我們就知道就幾乎是完全不可能去落實這件事所以其實總統的這個制度其實現在來看就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
15312.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
15330.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
也只能大概就是說因為我們知道在徵修條文裡面其實他也是寫的是非常的籠統那我們現在目前如果透過就是說我們修這個立法委員的這個職權行使法如果把它修的好像是他真的要必須來完全負責的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
15331.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
15342.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
那其實可能也會有一個在憲法解釋上或者甚至以後可能是違憲的這個狀況會出現所以這也不是說會不會發生所以其實在制度的設計上我只能說 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
15343.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
15370.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
可能這個地方也是要挺審慎的那因為目前總統他確實就是我們是由直接民選出來他有這麼大一個民意基礎那他這個負責的對象按照總統那個精神就是全民而不是反而像立法院所以在這個地方設計上但不過立法院還是代表的就是說是一個民意就是說沒有在選舉的時候是最高民意的這個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
15370.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
15373.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
所以怎麼樣去彰顯這兩者之間有些所謂的關係信號 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
15376.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
15401.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
我覺得當然還是可以談的 制度上也可以設計但是在制度上設計上是要比較審慎 也並沒有所謂的我們自己透過職權行使法這樣擴大解釋而造成危險 所以我是覺得是這樣當然雙方我覺得說 其實是可以取得一些妥協跟平衡在長期制度上 因為在修憲比較困難的狀況下 如果說能夠搭配一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
15403.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
15424.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
因為我們認真講其實現在的總統職權他還是尤其是在國安的那一個塊狀他基本上他也是實際的等於說是掌握這個權力的人所以其實既然像是國防、外交等等這些國安等等既然總統有這麼大的權力在裡面行使所以當然他怎麼樣去凸顯說讓這個國會也有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
15429.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15429.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15443.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15443.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15474.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15499.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
但是我也必須直說一件事就是說目前我當然看了這個各黨所提出的版本當然我只能說就一個比較從學裡面來提醒的就是說當然我們希望能夠往那個方向去加強但是就是說在制度的設計上因為比如說未來這個比如說是藐視國會啦或者是這個尋答不實等等這些或者是反諮詢等等這些就是說它在認定上 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15500.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15528.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
到底要怎麼樣去更精準的去做這樣的一個認定或者是這個判斷以免到時候可能會說那到底現在是要用什麼方式那當然現在可能看起來比較不是是用一個行政法的方式而不一定是用刑法的方式那但是其實當然這兩者都還是有一點點這個會碰到的這個問題因為坦白說刑法那就更困難了因為他幾乎還要有個判決那誰來界定比如行政單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15529.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15529.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15551.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15551.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
國會職權行使法 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15567.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15590.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
國會議員他的監督有很多的層面 除了立法之外比如預算的監督 但是我只要舉一個最小的一個實例就比如我們在預算監督的時候 其實我們每次都有很多的凍結案可是每次到凍結案我發現 他在解凍的那個過程幾乎在委員會中 有的時候就是念過去就好了甚至也沒有人再去關心了 所以那個的其實他是相當鬆散的 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15591.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15619.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
就是說我是覺得說在我們的法制還沒有辦法更精進之前其實立法委員還是有機會就是藉著就比如說真正就是我們是落實那個比如說預算這個解凍或者是去了解的那個過程而不是說讓這個到時候雖然我們暗示提了很多有時候甚至是暗海的策略可是到時候真正在做這個詳細的去解讀說到底這個行政單位是不是有這個符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15619.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15620.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15633.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15653.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
當然我們個人還是會主張當然國會現在目前整體的這個監督但是現在是一個契機也是事實因為現在在野的黨可能在整個國會也是算是多數所以其實剛好不像上一屆國會其實上一屆國會確實它有在監督上因為反而碰上了很大的這個障礙跟困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15654.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15669.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
所以我是覺得說這一次既然已經各黨也派也都提出來這一次國會改革的這種這些重要的法案我覺得值得深思也值得往這個方向走那另外的話就是說那至於只有總統的這個部分那它涉及這整個憲政的這個架構當然長期我們也是呼籲啦所以朝野政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15673.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15674.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
謝謝張教授很謝謝各位今天到場的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15700.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15728.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
今天公聽會的發言就到此告一個段落感謝所有與會者從不同的面向提供很多寶貴的意見今天各位的發言跟內容以及書面的意見以及審法會委員所提的書面資料均會列入記錄刊登公報並且做成公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及本日初列席人員參考今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15729.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15729.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
公聽會 結束 |