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video_url https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01ebf86bd82083604fe29bdac8407a85e45dd5fe0ad212429bb48e04e7492f0edff46f77a105961a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8
委員名稱 黃國昌
委員發言時間 15:49:31 - 16:05:11
影片長度 940
會議時間 2024-12-04T09:00:00+08:00
會議名稱 立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議(事由:邀請勞動部部長針對「勞動部勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署事件及如何完善申訴管道之具體策進作為及期程」進行專題報告,並備質詢。)
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transcript.whisperx[0].text 謝謝主席,馬上有請部長黃國昌部長好
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transcript.whisperx[1].text 兩個禮拜以前那個前部長在這邊承諾兩個禮拜要提出調查報告我昨天看你們的聲明是沒有辦法對不對現在還在調查中下禮拜會交出來下禮拜會交出來下禮拜會公布中期調查的報告沒有啦因為我知道你新就任所以我不想為難但我基本上的態度是說不會再立法院
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transcript.whisperx[2].text 既然做了承諾能夠遵守就盡量遵守新舊部長交接你剛上任他的承諾沒有辦法履行的部分責任要你扛我覺得也不公平但是我很看重在這個地方立委跟官員彼此之間我們在尋答過程當中所做出來的承諾這個是基本上面的原則那既然你新上任
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transcript.whisperx[3].text 下禮拜會交出來嗎?下禮拜會公布我第二個要請教的問題是說勞動部官員使用公帑去驗客是國家機密嗎?不是
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transcript.whisperx[4].end 106.739
transcript.whisperx[4].text 那公署的電費是國家機密嗎?不是那使用公帑送禮是國家機密嗎?不是那如果都不是的話為什麼我發一個函去問你們編密件?這我搞不懂欸因為我接到齁我是一個念法律的人我很守法啦只要公務機關回函給我編密件
transcript.whisperx[5].start 107.765
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transcript.whisperx[5].text 請針鋒處長回答
transcript.whisperx[6].start 119.96
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transcript.whisperx[6].text 發言委員因為我們回答您的上次您在質詢的時候關於東營公所的案子檢查機關已經在偵辦所以那一部分的內容我們認為他已經叫我們就停止調查因為他是在偵查的一部分所以那一部分這個問題我不要在這邊花太多時間但我請
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transcript.whisperx[7].text 政風處的主任回去再重新的理解所謂的偵查不公開就所何止啊絕對不是按照你們所解釋的這個樣子什麼叫偵查不公開是在偵查的過程當中檢察官的具體偵查行為所發現的資訊為了要確保偵查的順利他具體的偵查行為所發現的資訊不可以對外公開
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transcript.whisperx[8].text 但是行政部門針對你們手上所掌握到的資料我看了裡面實際的內容我老實講很多委員都收錄到了我以法律人的判斷這根本就不屬於在機密的範圍所以從剛剛部長回答的過程你也可以看得出來部長回答的為什麼這麼自然
transcript.whisperx[9].start 196.294
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transcript.whisperx[9].text 但是我沒有意思要在今天這個地方跟你們爭論這件事情我善意的提醒我們政風室的主任再回去了解一下
transcript.whisperx[10].start 207.762
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transcript.whisperx[10].text 你們在公文上面所回覆的那個內容為什麼會編密件啊因為行政機關啊有一個非常不好的習慣我不希望這個習慣無限的延伸下去不要隨便編密件要不然裡面寫的東西我老實講我看完了以後我第一個疑問是這是哪門子機密啊
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transcript.whisperx[11].text 為什麼要編密件?你們再回去看一看再重新的審視檢討一次這樣可以嗎?那個我回應黃委員確實目前這些相關的案件因為這個檢調這邊來跟我們說明尤其是涉及到採購跟涉及到標案的部分
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transcript.whisperx[12].text 那他們現在正在調查所以他也請我們先暫緩相關的調查所以我想那個密件不是說我們要去遮掩什麼東西主要是因為現在檢調在調查的部分所以我剛剛才會跟你特別的強調嘛所謂偵查不公開的原則叫你們不要再處理或是什麼這個我都尊重啊但是這個跟你們回應立法院裡面的內容根本不涉及偵查的內容你編密件
transcript.whisperx[13].start 275.925
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transcript.whisperx[13].text 我覺得這條線要守住否則以後這是原則性的問題就沒完沒了我覺得怎麼樣提供比較合理但是確實這不一定是密件啦這樣子沒有關係啊那個你們自己再回去檢討我給你們時間再回去想一想再回去檢討因為我後面還有其他的問題剛剛4分鐘主席已經加強語氣了所以我速度要稍微啊
transcript.whisperx[14].start 302.285
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transcript.whisperx[14].text 要稍微再快一點在11月21號新北市勞工局勞檢以後勞動部有沒有要求北分署的同仁填寫表單填寫什麼樣的表單我具體的講職場不法侵害行為自主檢核表應該是有啦
transcript.whisperx[15].start 327.253
transcript.whisperx[15].end 350.758
transcript.whisperx[15].text 因為北分署的同仁他們就把你們內部的email就跟我檢舉啦所以要你們填這個不法侵害行為自主檢核表啊對不起這是什麼時候發的來來來右手邊來看一下11月25號下午3點18分各位主管同仁您好我是分署職安人員
transcript.whisperx[16].start 351.698
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transcript.whisperx[16].text 有關113年11月21日新北市勞檢處勞檢應辦的事項辦理職場危害評估及執行紀錄 敬請大家於113年11月26日前填寫職場不法侵害行為自主檢核表跟委員說明我自己看這份文件的目的應該是想要針對
transcript.whisperx[17].start 377.068
transcript.whisperx[17].end 405.027
transcript.whisperx[17].text 下屬的單位有沒有相關職場不法侵害部分做一輪的瞭解只是瞭解的方法有不妥當這我們可以檢討沒有沒有沒有部長你不要緊張啦我沒有說瞭解的方法妥不妥當第一個我質詢的習慣是先確定事實先確定事實是我秀那張email給你我只是要證實說我不是道聽途說的人家白紙黑字你們發的東西我掌握了第二個填這個
transcript.whisperx[18].start 406.59
transcript.whisperx[18].end 433.362
transcript.whisperx[18].text 自主檢核表也不是什麼不法的東西因為依照執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的附錄6本來就有這個自主檢核表但為什麼這件事情我要提出質詢這個不法侵害行為自主檢核表裡面來請部長看一下左下角這個檢核表有要求填表的人要署名嗎
transcript.whisperx[19].start 436.106
transcript.whisperx[19].end 457.987
transcript.whisperx[19].text 這個檢核表適合要求人要署名嗎?這個都是勞動部的法規我等一下因為這個字比較小這個法規叫做執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引裡面有個附錄6職場不法侵害行為自主檢核表你們誰業務熟的上來幫部長一下好不好
transcript.whisperx[20].start 459.213
transcript.whisperx[20].end 467.358
transcript.whisperx[20].text 該委員報告我們這個指引的自主檢核表相對並沒有寫並沒有填那個姓名職稱那個的欄位應該要叫他們填名字嗎
transcript.whisperx[21].start 468.596
transcript.whisperx[21].end 492.979
transcript.whisperx[21].text 我覺得看機關自己內部的一些做法我覺得還是有可以彈性的討論的等一下等一下等一下當你講齁這個彈性的討論對不起我就沒辦法接受囉因為這個是我們提供給事業單位做參與使用他們做自己的內部的那個調查是啊是啊那你覺得應不應該要大家署名呢我們沒有要求在這文件裡面職產署署長我們沒有要求大家署名
transcript.whisperx[22].start 493.821
transcript.whisperx[22].end 518.596
transcript.whisperx[22].text 這個就是我的重點來他們實際下面發下去的是什麼實際下面發下去的在你們公告給社會看到的表格裡面他們發下去的表格竟然自己寫了填表者要大家署名部長你覺得這樣適合嗎這是我剛才說的想要了解想要去做一些調查但是這些調查的過程它的形式上這個合不合適這當然我們都可以檢討的
transcript.whisperx[23].start 520.174
transcript.whisperx[23].end 538.273
transcript.whisperx[23].text 在這邊部長說可以檢討但我希望部長回去了解了以後要有個基本的態度我為什麼說要有個基本的態度因為北分署的同仁他們為什麼會陳情到我這邊來他們當初看到這個檢核表的時候大家都傻眼要簽名捏
transcript.whisperx[24].start 539.727
transcript.whisperx[24].end 562.035
transcript.whisperx[24].text 要簽名欸這種東西如果要簽名的話誰敢表達他自己的爭議啊在規範上面我必須要說為什麼當初的檢核表沒有設計這個簽名你發的對象絕對是署內的同仁沒有錯嘛你不可能發去路邊給路人嘛既然你要調查署內同仁的意義
transcript.whisperx[25].start 562.955
transcript.whisperx[25].end 591.261
transcript.whisperx[25].text 的想法那你就要讓大家有自由表意的空間嘛這個是為什麼當初在這個表格裡面沒有要大家寫填表者嘛但當但事發了以後事發了以後為什麼北分署的同仁大家會憤怒大家會不滿你發下來這個表上面竟然要大家填表這樣好嗎呃 歡迎我我同意如果要求大家署名的話會有你剛才說的顧慮好
transcript.whisperx[26].start 593.433
transcript.whisperx[26].end 619.017
transcript.whisperx[26].text 需不需要署名這件事情我希望部裡面有一個統一的原則而不是按照剛剛另外一位長官所講的什麼各機關彈性調整這樣子的話那以後你開創了這個不應該開創的空間對於這個自主檢核表他目的的達成以及填寫同仁自主意願的表達顯然是會造成障礙的部長可不可以同意同意好
transcript.whisperx[27].start 620.575
transcript.whisperx[27].end 625.482
transcript.whisperx[27].text 欸那個我最後主席我還有一分鐘可以嗎?30秒好啦你別那麼吵啦
transcript.whisperx[28].start 628.663
transcript.whisperx[28].end 640.468
transcript.whisperx[28].text 那第二個事情這個是2023年12月26號北分署的會議記錄在那個會議記錄裡面去記載了什麼他說本分署DNA是要務實解決問題對於風氣、性騷、職場霸凌、絕對零容忍我們一定從速從重處理而這個會議的主席就是當時的分署長謝一龍
transcript.whisperx[29].start 657.864
transcript.whisperx[29].end 684.591
transcript.whisperx[29].text 我看到這個會議記錄啊我必須要跟部長說啊我看了這是無比的諷刺無比的諷刺這是2023年12月26號依照上一次勞動部所出具連部長前部長自己都承認不合格的調查報告當中都已經認定他有霸凌的事實結果他所主持的會議當中說本分署零容忍重訴重重處理
transcript.whisperx[30].start 686.112
transcript.whisperx[30].end 708.825
transcript.whisperx[30].text 我把這個提出來並不是想要再一次的去批評或者是去譴責這個謝宜龍雖然再度批評或譴責也沒有什麼不對但我想要了解的實際的狀況是你們有沒有去理解或者是掌握資訊在他當分署長的任內針對職場霸凌有沒有出現過申訴案件有還是沒有編事單位
transcript.whisperx[31].start 716.786
transcript.whisperx[31].end 746.128
transcript.whisperx[31].text 因為我很好奇到底是沒有申訴案件還是有申訴結果不曉得被怎麼搞掉了因為分署長告訴所有署內的同仁是本分署零容忍重重處理歡迎我可以說如果就算沒有申訴案件也是因為我們內部在相關處理的機制是有問題的沒有關係你先不用跟我講如果就是客觀的事實有還是沒有先回答這個就好了
transcript.whisperx[32].start 747.588
transcript.whisperx[32].end 775.478
transcript.whisperx[32].text 跟委員報告北分署的話在112年有霸凌的申訴案件是三件那113年呢113年也是三件那最後的結果呢都是沒有成立都是沒有處理那我現在再問一下那個112年的三件跟113年的三件如果是不成立是不是各有調查報告應該要有吧那這個總共六份調查報告可以提供嗎
transcript.whisperx[33].start 779.499
transcript.whisperx[33].end 800.007
transcript.whisperx[33].text 我們去做各自的遮蔽以後好不好需要多久這個時間我要問啦因為我常常會等很久因為今天北分組不在啦那我們跟北分組確認一下等一下回覆委員什麼時候可以提供好最後一個問題真的是最後一個問題齁
transcript.whisperx[34].start 801.547
transcript.whisperx[34].end 825.769
transcript.whisperx[34].text 因為我在今年2024年1月2號北分署的會議紀錄又看到了說我們分署採購案被勞動部集合計有羅列26項缺失然後分署長謝宜龍說要大家多加注意那我看到這個會議紀錄那顯然是什麼北分署
transcript.whisperx[35].start 826.826
transcript.whisperx[35].end 847.861
transcript.whisperx[35].text 在辦採購的時候他出現的問題勞動部之前已經什麼 集合到了有26項缺失那我好奇的事情是勞動部已經集合到了那為什麼謝怡榮他在當分署長任內的時候所辦理的採購案到目前為止浮上水面的又這麼多問題
transcript.whisperx[36].start 850.565
transcript.whisperx[36].end 859.283
transcript.whisperx[36].text 針對勞動部集合所羅列的那26項缺失的內容是不是可以請勞動部事後提供可以可以嗎需要多久
transcript.whisperx[37].start 863.439
transcript.whisperx[37].end 880.354
transcript.whisperx[37].text 好沒有問題那回復的時候拜託順便講一件事針對這26項缺失集合出來了以後那然後呢接下來發生什麼事呃黃委員剛剛秘書處跟我說明說其實這集合的缺失常常是程序上面有瑕疵
transcript.whisperx[38].start 880.694
transcript.whisperx[38].end 898.031
transcript.whisperx[38].text 沒有關係我看了26項了以後具體一樣一樣看因為我喜歡本於事實討論等到我拿到白紙黑字的東西羅列那26項缺失有什麼問題我們再來看當初為什麼勞動部有集合出來但是後續
transcript.whisperx[39].start 899.312
transcript.whisperx[39].end 908.767
transcript.whisperx[39].text 是不是有處理我現在沒有下任何定論所以我剛請你們一併回應26項缺失有沒有處理是沒有必要處理還是實際的狀況是什麼一併回覆這樣可以嗎
transcript.whisperx[40].start 912.924
transcript.whisperx[40].end 937.201
transcript.whisperx[40].text 通常我們集合出來如果有缺失的話能夠立即改正就會請他們立即改正那如果就是說已經事情無法改正了以後我們就次年的時候會再再度再次集合類似案件沒有關係啊你們的26項缺失是什麼後續處理的行動是什麼我們有了具體的內容以後下一階段再來檢討會比較清楚一點這樣可以嗎OK可以喔好謝謝謝謝謝謝王委員謝謝部長
IVOD_ID 157837
IVOD_URL https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157837
日期 2024-12-04
會議資料.會議代碼 委員會-11-2-26-12
會議資料.屆 11
會議資料.會期 2
會議資料.會次 12
會議資料.種類 委員會
會議資料.委員會代碼[0] 26
會議資料.標題 第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議
影片種類 Clip
開始時間 2024-12-04T15:49:31+08:00
結束時間 2024-12-04T16:05:11+08:00
支援功能[0] ai-transcript