| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01ebf86bd8208360836813a0e0d4bd8ee45dd5fe0ad21242d33acae7c847dfd320cac61ede387e4d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃健豪 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:29:21 - 14:42:00 |
| 影片長度 |
759 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「勞動部勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署事件及如何完善申訴管道之具體策進作為及期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
9.427 |
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10.999 |
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好謝謝主席我們請勞動部紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
21.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
45.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
黃委好部長好部長這個換了身份今天第4以部長的身份來跟你就以委員跟部長身份來質詢部長我想先就教一件事情上禮拜傳出一個消息你一直認為說是禮拜一要來排這個專報是誰給你的消息不是我當時是認為我當時是覺得這禮拜我就要來所以其實我應該要在 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
47.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
62.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
週末就對於大家各呃週末前就應該對業務報告對各當各司俗的業務有一個進一步的掌握好部長謝謝哦因為我一開始一誤以為你認為是禮拜一啦那我要提醒你說如果有人跟你講禮拜一的話他傳遞了錯誤的消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
62.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
78.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
好,那你當剛剛上任部長我也希望說你能得到正確的消息不要被蒙蔽啊所以說才特別提這個問題那既然是你自己自發性的覺得要提早準備好那我就沒有意見了好,那我們進到主題那其實今天很多委員關心的是我們所謂的就業安利基金的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
78.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
97.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請6檔 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
101.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
104.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
跟委員報告我們在105年到113年總共墊付了4億3000萬元那目前歸墊的是5827萬元一成大約一成 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
115.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
139.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
所以這顛覆的比例很低嘛所以我們就講說今天就業安定基金我們之所以它叫基金你當過委員很清楚我們在看預算的時候基金的目的不就是能夠有進有出才叫基金嗎如果一直付出去那就是供付預算了吧所以問一下部長我先想請教一下部長說我們還是講當然第一時間必須用就業安定基金來顛覆這個我沒有意見但是問題是後續你的基金一直在付給這種事情一直在 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
140.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
164.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
只要有人擺爛付不出罰款付不出機票然後我們就用救安定基金來讓他回國讓他回去那這沒辦法解決這個問題啊那我知道之前大概105年2015年的時候2015年左右的時候有提過說要去跟所謂的母國就是移工的母國來追討但是後續也不了了之我想問一下新部長上來之後對於這種救安定基金的虧損問題你們有沒有辦法解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
168.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
169.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這個會有一個代帳處理的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
190.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
219.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
跟委員報告那我想那個捐安定費捐安定金之間支出的墊付的款項那後面如果沒有辦法收回的話我們按照行政程序去執行呢最後也會抵抵的代償先部長來我想要提出一些思考啦如果這些移工他就是付不出錢或他就是不願意付的話應該有什麼樣的代償機制吧他們要怎麼樣去做這件事情就像那個working holiday一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
221.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
237.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
他不付這個罰款那是不是他能夠派工給他幫忙政府做一些比較基本的工作做完之後再讓他回去後來這錢就一直這樣子吃下去那個跟委員報告因為其實現在其實我們這都是按照舊法60條來做執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
240.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
255.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那這個有他的法規要求的有他法規要求的程序所以我們現在只能按照這個舊法60號沒關係部長我是提供這個建議給你參考不然從以前到現在這個錢就越花越多然後就是這樣子沒完沒倒下去我覺得這不是一個辦法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
256.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
280.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那再回到救安基金大家今天不斷的質詢說為什麼可以拿去買咖啡機為什麼可以去買垃圾桶為什麼可以拿去打掃當然依照你們的第1條裡面是促進國民就業提供理事勞工扶持跟處理外國人騙雇的相關管理事務這是他們救安基金的你們的核心的價值核心的目的支用上面這樣子那第5條裡面的用途有一項叫做管理及總務支出我猜想啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
293.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
308.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
跟委員報告因為這些所定的不管是職業訓練就業服務創業協助等等他這是一個對民眾的直接服務而這些直接服務必須要有行政管理才能夠讓這些服務能夠得以遂行所以他是在所謂的相關的範圍概念之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
310.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
330.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以是在管理總共支出支出這個項目在你們的在你們報帳的時候你們去申請的時候你們是用哪一條項目來去報所謂的咖啡機也好或是打掃用品也好這些被媒體寫出來的這些奇奇怪怪的支出就因為救安基金當初收的目的就是希望能夠所謂保障本國勞工或讓本國勞工的職能能夠提升嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
331.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
349.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
他的當初目的是這樣嘛但是後來你變成使用上跑去用看起來是比較享受的事情那這跟一開始的這個支出辦法就很大的落差了所以今天講說特別把11條指出來就是說我要問一下部長也問一下你們部內如果真的要做這個改革你們可以把這個拿掉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
351.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
371.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
跟委員報告這個部分如果拿掉的話變成我們所有的原來在這裡面包括為了維持包括訓練場或者是就業服務據點這個部分連這基本的營運維持我們都沒有辦法從救安基金來支的話那除非我們可以爭取得到公務預算否則在廣義的認定他還是在促進國民就業裡面的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
371.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
389.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
如果他在處理國民就業如果因為處理國民就業我需要喝咖啡那你就會報在那個相關項目裡面嗎那就可以用用這個所謂的所謂的管理級總務職出來報啦我們有不合宜我們也承認阿但是不是所有的包括我們的這些建設都是那個不合宜這部分要上線跟委員說明齁確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
390.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
410.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
就是說他其實相關的程序他有走過相關的程序但就像剛才說到說其實可能會有些訓練場他會有他的行政支出費用那這個訓練場的目的當然是促進國民就業所以這裡面的行政的費用他會用這個方式去報進來主要的原因是在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
411.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
436.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
好所以部長意思說這個東西你們認為這個所謂的管理及總務總務支出並沒有拿掉的必要性就對了就就法規面來說因為現在真的會有蠻多的支出但我就是說合不合以社會觀感好不好我們會來檢視可是這些訓練相關的計劃包括他的場館的運營他的目的是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
437.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
444.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
促進國民就業在目的上面確實他的目的是在做這件事那做這件事的同時他會有一些行政上面的支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
447.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
474.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
行政支出我知道啦但行政支出你的用途裡面就已經包含在裡面了嘛所以說我要實施職業訓練及就業資訊等事項所以我自己會認為說當然你說當然當然現在大家看到所謂買咖啡等等等的呃大家會有不同的觀感來沒關係部長對可是他會有必要的行政支出部長那我請教一件事情我們就針對一件事情就好了好舉例來講就是以咖啡機為例你們現在有啟動內部調查還是全部都交由檢調來調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
476.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
487.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
像這個事情就我跟黃委員說明喔檢調現在是針對標案或者是採購的部分其實有在調查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
488.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
508.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那就這些部分因為標案或者是採購的部分它就會涉及到一些形式上面的責任所以他們是有希望說我們其實在這些部分上面這個如果一些內部的調查的部分可以先暫緩那以他們來作為最優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
509.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
532.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好部長因為我們希望說當然司法進行調查了但我們後續如果司法沒有調查出什麼結果我當然不知道他們司法是什麼調查了我們會全力配合司法的調查我們希望說讓民眾知道到底像比如說你這個什麼咖啡精有的沒有的到底是用什麼科目你把它支出的嗎我們在在合一性上我們會做一輪機制的檢討因為我們看到因為其實我剛剛這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
534.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
563.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
剛剛你們的這個不好意思剛剛是是是代理署長提到說要爭取公務預算我們看到明年度預算自己勞動部本來的預算就2900億左右2859億左右那救安基金也只有200億元的收入啦但是我是覺得說像這些有的沒有的支出理論上就應該使用公務支出就好了不應該一直就占用一直去用我們所謂的這個救安基金這麼好用當然就這麼好用是過去這些年你們便宜形式去用了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
564.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
580.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
當然發生就發生了嘛現在跟進行調查我們期待是西部長上來的未來像這樣子的基金這樣子基金使用如果不符合項目不符合他原來用來保障國民就業的部分的時候你在使用上你就應該去回到本預算裡面了你該行政支出就是行政支出啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
581.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
595.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我們會跟盡量來跟行政院爭取在本部的預算裡面能夠擴編啦但確實是過去長期因為本部的預算都相當有限所以跟這三個名目下面相關的業務才會去用到救安基金的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
596.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
624.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
好在最後這個主題站起來了我想問一下這個所謂的現在公務員公務機關這些霸凌案件後續的主管機關請問一下勞動勞工當然像是勞動部啊有時候職業安全衛生法等等的是勞動部主管那到底未來像公務員這一塊是勞動部主管還是誰主管目前其實在公務員保護的一些相關法令他的法公務員的法體系確實現在比較是在考試院下 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
626.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
643.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以未來的主管機關不一定是你們?你們的主管機關不討論了嗎?經過這一兩個禮拜這樣子動盪之後目前我說目前在公務員人員的法體系是在考試院那這部分不是我們說我們想怎樣就能夠怎樣的事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
644.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
644.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
主席坐下了 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
673.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
693.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
指案法裡面我想最嚴重的問題是這樣啦現在當然有指案法有一些依循標準包含說我們公務員相關也是依照什麼指案法去訂立相關的準則但是最麻煩是什麼沒有霸凌故意就是什麼叫霸凌故意什麼叫要件這部分在未來修法裡面你們會處理嗎當然這是重點那我們稍微開始討論這個事情現在已經在討論禮拜一已經召開相關會議了 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
694.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
710.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好那我們希望這件事情齁能夠盡快的至少勞工的所謂職業安全衛生法勞工的準則定出來之後可能後續我不知道公務員的部分到底是歸你們還是以後歸考試員那至少有一個準則因為我知道現行階段公務員的部分是參考勞工的東西嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
711.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
730.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
對,所以我們現在包括我們的職安署其實在於對於不管是勞動部法清開或者是霸凌的部分我也希望他其實能夠參考國外的一些案例跟做法那能夠更專業那當然我說公務員裡面如果要訂立的話我們勞動部我們也很願意一起參與討論提供我們在這部分累積的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
731.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
758.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好這叫拜託部長因為就像我們這個上一位部長跟這個分子長案件一樣第一份調查報告就如同那時候在記者會講的你會到他們按照法律就會講說最後因為沒有霸凌故意認為他沒有涉嫌重大所以這部分到底怎麼樣叫做霸凌故意這中間因果關係要怎麼建立起來我們希望部長能夠把這部分來強化可以嗎當然謝謝好謝謝黃健庭委員 |
| IVOD_ID |
157830 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157830 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-12 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-04T14:29:21+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-04T14:42:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |