| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01ebf86bd82083608e7f84a1d0528752e45dd5fe0ad21242d33acae7c847dfd37aee9c616f299ce85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:09:55 - 14:29:14 |
| 影片長度 |
1159 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「勞動部勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署事件及如何完善申訴管道之具體策進作為及期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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黃部長歡迎回良家希望今天不是震撼教育不過我看你的報告真的除了封面之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
32.506 |
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44.502 |
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薄薄三章本來以為今天會有大刀寇武的有點小失望而且更重要的我剛聽你說你說那個一些相關的這個法案的這個修改跟提出來要等到下會期啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
45.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
65.005 |
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為什麼那麼久?這左院長不是講說上個禮拜就講說一個禮拜內霸凌案子各部都處理完嗎?最後一個禮拜啊已經太慢了啊現在緩霸凌已經變成風起雲湧變成一個運動沒有看見各個部會那麼多這個霸凌案是不是要再快一點點?現在火燒眉毛了可以等到你下會期再提法案嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
65.325 |
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93.544 |
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那個跟委員說明確實現在在霸凌防治的法規上面是不足的但這部分我們其實並沒有任何拖延禮拜一我們的治安署其實已經邀請相關的專家學者來提供意見我們現在會整中但確實這部法要修尤其是要在母法要定它其實涉及到蠻複雜的修法工程尤其是裡面相關的定義尤其是霸凌樣態的定義上面這事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
94.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
117.367 |
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需要我們會積極但要很審慎而且下會期不要偷到不是什麼2月1號開始的會期我們絕對會很積極我也是善意提醒因為過幾天你再過段時間再來大家還是問你嘛因為外界的氣氛很大這個時間點要經得起考驗那我現在提醒你的現在在各個立法委員都接到很多啊你看各個部會裡面都有大家都在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
119.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
147.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
因為沉默以前很多人沉默了沉默變成常態所以霸凌就變成這種文化了現在已經大刀闊斧要趕快改我最近接到很多案子我問一個比較重要的樣態今天我特別要提醒的就是我們的女性特別是懷孕的女性我接到一個我們政府機關的一個個案他在懷孕准媽媽結果那段時間疫情連要在家裡面連要在家裡面居家上班都被他的主管刁難了 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
150.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
164.475 |
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部長我今天能不能非常明確的從你這邊得到一個答案你看一下不是只有單獨這個個案你看104人力營覽最近公佈的10月份職場性別友善調查發現61.9的女性受訪者 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
165.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
186.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
他說 最近這一年 公司最近這一年因為性別而受到不平等待遇 超過有五成 認為有什麼升遷的問題 懷孕的問題 結婚育兒的問題 連要請個特別休假的這個問題都受到不公平的待遇 我今天很明確的對你做一個要求勞動部對於女性在職場受到不公平待遇 特別是 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
187.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
196.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
有身孕的女性請假問題還有她公平的這個問題你做出一個比較明確的指引跟規範可不可以那個跟跟文說明齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
198.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
224.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
其實你現在講的是就業歧視的部分其實就業歧視的部分其實我們有相關的法規那只要市政很明確該開法的我想我們就會來處理所以就這個個案剛剛來檢舉這個個案可能最近就有可能開法了那現在更重要從制度面去解決問題所以部長我今天就提醒你針對這個除了法令的這個落實之外要盡量重視這個問題好不好當然來另外我問你剛剛這個救安基金啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
225.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
247.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
變成小金庫這個問題你剛剛已經回答過你說他有主要用個三個用途嗎對不對在舊法裡面三個用途那現在很多今天很多立委都問你了隱藏費不符合買咖啡都不符合垃圾清印也不符合你現在該做什麼動作你這好像回答了一句社會觀感不佳你是不是應該回去看一下預算法預算法25條跟95條如果預算項目不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
255.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
264.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
你亂去挪用這個錢是應該去追回來的吧對不對而且老實講你現在不是有社會觀感不佳你這筆錢老實講連審計部都過不了 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
267.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
285.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那個跟委員報告齁其實這部分目前檢調已經有相關的在查查了那我們會全力的配合那確實現在在名目上面如果其實有不符合的地方當然如果查包括政風等等等我們絕對不會護短 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
287.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
314.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
部長所以現在兩個大的問題嘛一個是有人去檢取了他已經進入有沒有貪污秩序條例的問題對對對沒有兩個問題一個當然如果是檢方那邊調查司法體系有沒有貪污秩序條例這本來就是要辦的嘛第二個更重要的是你這一邊啊你已經發現他社會觀感不佳的同時他的項目又嚴重的這個不對那你有責任去把他追回來啊不是就講一個社會觀感不佳預算法的規定裡面25跟90跟95條你有責任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
317.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
321.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我先提醒部長你回答之前我跟你講你這筆預算是有可能審計單位根本就過不了的案子對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
323.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
350.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
有可能啊 審計單位敢合這個完全違反預算法的錢嗎所以你是不是有責任一個不只以後不能再發生包括被濫用的這個不合規定的應該去把這筆錢追回來啊委員我們會在名目上面去做一個完整的檢視不只檢視啦你自己去追當然要該採取什麼法律上面的工作我們當然就會做我跟委員說在接下來在檢視救安基金這件事情上面我沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
352.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
358.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
就該怎麼該就該對啦你不要直接講說該怎麼說對啦包括要不要去吹這是你其中的一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
360.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
385.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這筆錢不能夠只有欸如果有法規授權我們去做法規授權我們去做的話當然我們就要該做的去做主計單位財主單位都可以但是前提是先要要先確認他是否有不法但是確認不法是已經到了貪汙的狀況了嘛那預算項目預算法裡面是另外規定啊所以他是雙軌都要做那個因為現在其實很多相關的計畫他確實我們看到他確實有走走過 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
387.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
414.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
就案令基金撥付的程序他有走過這個程序所以如果要去認定他不法或該被追回也會有相關的法定的程序這不是我一念之間或者是任何首長一念之間說我覺得這不妥我就可以追回的他經過了他的法定的程序所以這時候司法單位有沒有認定他不法或者是有問題這也是這裡面很重要的判準 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
415.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
443.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這不是我能夠一念之間說我喜歡怎樣我不喜歡怎樣我就可以說我去把你給追回的現在司法單位認定了就是當然有人去檢舉包括鍾小平去檢舉了習明春或是某些人嘛對不對所以司法單位已經在查我知道你剛剛講的如果是涉及到貪污自罪條例那一塊的當然後來一定請人要去追嘛還有這形式上的責任嘛另外預算法上面明定了你過不過得了審計單位跟處計單位那一關包括請人要去追你回去要再研究一下好不好就這兩個事情很重要不要只有講社會觀感不佳第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
444.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
472.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
還有一個很重要的立法的部分你剛提說下會期提了你是要立一個專法是不是現在其實各界有可能有提到有人提專法有人提專章有各種不同的修現在有不同的修法的路徑我們現在我是持開放態度但是每一種做法有他的優缺點所以現在也在綜合評估中那現有的像吹哨者保護法你支不支持這不是我主管的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
473.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
488.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
不是 我說你個人是不支持吹哨者保護法你以前在立法院應該是暫省的對不對你現在當了勞動部部長欸 吹哨者保護法跟你很相關啊如果謝宜芬這個事謝宜蓉這個事情如果之前有一個消費者保護法就不會搞到出人命啊對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
489.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
503.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
被霸凌者 吹哨者有受到一定的這個保護 很多霸凌事件就沒有了因為我現在的身份是勞動部長那我會就我的職權跟職責裡面的工作我來負責任的回答黃副長 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
504.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
532.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
對於勞工可能會被霸凌對於你勞動部的人有可能像那位吳先生被霸凌你是不是應該就要支持催照者保護法因為霸凌法制上面的不健全所以我們當然現在在霸凌防治的法制的話我們會積極的來做這個可能沒有衝突啊你要去遞專章跟專法可是這個是一個很重要的法律對 但是這是我主責下面的工作我說我現在不太方便去對其他怎麼不方便哪一個勞動部部長不支持催照者要被保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
533.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
554.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
不是只有存在著保護法你要去重視你要去支持法令還多嘞包括考試院跟人事總局那個公務員那個保障法的修法你也要支持啊要不然你的你的導致部的員工有受到有受到這個保障嗎升遷法啊這個主管以前都不用接受考核的啊以後升遷法裡面也要訂啊是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
556.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
581.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我現在勞動部部長我現在在做我的職權內的事情我可以來做負責任的回應啦那個黃部長這就是你的職權啦全世界的民主國家的勞動部的部長哪一個不保障我們的吹哨者不保護我們公務員這本來就是要集齊啊不是那個我尊重委員的想法但是你現在就勞基法 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
582.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
595.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
跟委員報告老七法跟慈安法目前對於檢舉人的部分都已經有相關的申訴保障制度那如果有一些迫害的部分的話都也有處罰的機制目前是有的現行機制如果夠的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
596.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
615.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那謝宜蓉這個勞業總這事情不幸會發生為什麼現在職場有那麼多各個部會像宇鶴春巡風騎引擎有這麼多案子但是要去補破網要去補牆啊黃部長我提醒你一個點好不好現在我在跟你談的是一個有沒有要保障所有的勞動部的員工各部會還有這個勞工的勞動部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
619.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
643.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
今天你今天你有沒有沒有點這個頭現在人民是在看這個新的這個勞動部長是有重視人權嗎有反霸凌嗎那個跟張榮說明對於一般的勞工這當然是我們主責的對象我們當然盡力的來保護對於勞動部下的公務員我們也會盡力來保護這部分我可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
644.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
670.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我的態度是非常清楚的我很期待新任的這個勞動部長是有擔當而且是重視大家權利的他要全力透過所有的法令跟制度面去避免所有霸凌在發生的這個是我問你的一個重點當然這是我們的期待我最後再問不只是專法跟法律面要去強化包括吹哨者保護法公務員吹哨者保護法公務員保護法跟升遷法還有你管的所有跟你勞動有關的這個法令另外一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
671.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
698.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你到製度面去解決這個問題你沒有發現現在由單位去調查現在看起來好像都是撐過鐵油的東西他出現幾個問題嘛利益衝突跟偏袒問題專業性也不夠調查過程這個透明度是低的政績收集也是不足的忽視了受害者這個需求很多都處理時間是非常強的後續跟進也不足單位文化業問題最終還有後面這個吹哨者場場身份都被曝光了 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
698.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
727.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以我今天提了四個具體的這個要求來我們看這四個部長你應該似曾相識這個我們一起去修這個電內法的時候很像對不對怎麼樣讓內部的這個內部原單位的調查不要讓那個吹哨者或是霸凌者的身份會去曝光然後這個外部的人員要怎麼進來讓他是專業的我至少提了四個要求來讓他們看看第一個以後不只是勞動部喔所有部會是不是要做這些事情以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
728.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
745.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
規定外部的專家比例要大於二分之一不要自己人調查自己人右手查左手查出來老是利益良善外部的專家比例要大於二分之一第二個審查紀錄要能夠公開透明讓受害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
746.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
746.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
委員你剛才講這點針對就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
765.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
780.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
如果有職場霸凌的調查要怎麼讓他的專業更加專業化這當然我同意這個方向那第4點講到說會來規範職場霸凌的防治方式這是我們現在在做法治化的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
781.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
809.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那這個這個審查的制度要公算的就是第4項我們已經有共識了你要專法或是專章的嘛第一項呢外部的這個專家比例要大於二分之一我跟你講何佩珊何部長那時候黨的地方因為我在臉書上面發生這個事情第一時間我就發了新聞跟臉書我說你外部的委員一定要多找一些你不要讓人家覺得說你自己人在查自己那後來調查當然出了兩個問題就是外部的這個外部的這個專家人數太少 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
810.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
811.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個跟文說明在我們都應該要讓這個調查的過程裡面更加專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
834.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
855.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
當然我認為都應該要有外部的專家可是確實這個專家比例要到多少現在其實很多很多的公務機關裡面現在坦白說都面對他們現在都要找外部專家找不到的問題就是現在你答應你那個你說原來那個調查報告有問題對不對你下禮拜要拿來你現在調查的這個外部專家比例是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
857.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
882.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
你不會搞到搞到沒有公信力吧又就是關關相護吧當然我們不會關關相護你現在外部的專家有幾個你現在下禮拜拿來的你最新的調查你外部專家有幾個我們那個跟委員說明我們有外部委員的參與啦然後這個我們絕對不會關關相護有啊上次何佩珊主導的你們上次那個被你認為有問題的就是也有外部委員只是人太少啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
883.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
903.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我們不會關關相護不是,你的比例是多高?你這是有幾個?你這是有幾個外部職員?那個委員,重點是這份報告會是由我來負責任我是召集人你不要弄到跟合佩山一樣火又燒起來又不要換一個新的勞動部長,不會啦我是召集人,然後我會來負責你負責,那以後能不能建立一個制度以後就是外部的專家比例大概二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
905.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
923.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
欸這個你有沒有覺得似曾相識這個是前陣子你還當立委的時候我們兩個共同修法的方向啊那時候電內法你不是贊成的嗎你說電內法要有外部專家啊民間的代表二分之一欸我們等於所通過的咧張委員因為你現在到了勞動從立委變成勞動部長反而倒退路喔張委員因為電價審議委員全台灣只有一個電價審議委員會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
926.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
934.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
但是現在我們要來成立各個調查小組這個是每個單位都要成立調查小組他的狀態跟全臺灣只有一個電價審議委員會這真的是不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
937.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
955.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我們會盡力讓他更專業啦你今天意思是說倒退路還是怎樣立委的時候都比較立委的主張現在當了部長反而倒退路我們討論的狀況你是太謹慎嗎還是我們討論的狀況那個是真的是當時我們修法的時候是全台灣只有一個電價生意委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
957.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
971.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
陳同仁只有一個部長這應該放出四孩皆准的吧就是不要避免自己人查自己人觀光項目就是外面大家可以慶福的專家學者進來外部有人進來二分之一這有什麼困難這個有爭議喔你剛剛意思是什麼找不到人 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
973.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
991.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
你是否定否定否定要有多一點學者專家還是我沒有否定我沒有否定但是現在各單位其實現在都面現在我都知道我聽聽聞到很多公務機關因為現在都要成立調查小組那這個這個這個安全防護小組裡面都在找外部專家所以他 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
993.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1012.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
都已經別人找不到你自己勞動部現在火燒沒頭了你自己先顧好自己二分之一吧你現在會不會下禮拜提出來真的沒有二分之一好第二個地方來來來二分之一你今天不點頭然後講全民會有一個會有一個評論的喔部長你今天回答這個問題都是很重要的我認為媒體跟全民會去檢視說我們的勞動部長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1014.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1015.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我們當然會公布最後的調查報告結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1043.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1046.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我要向你表達說這個事情的調查真的跟電業跟電價審議是不太一樣的這裡面涉及到很多人的隱私 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1071.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1084.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那這些強調我們要強調一個暴露我還要求你吹哨者跟被霸凌者都一定一定要做到啊你怎麼會因為要保護這個結果你的時間被拖延後不夠透明我只是要跟你強調說 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1087.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1113.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
這個相關的霸凌的調查真的跟這個電價審議是很不一樣的狀況非常重要啦兩個都非常重要就這次你們發生這個事情欸不要說一個部長下台了一條人命你這次的審查過程裡面能夠不公開透明嗎不能夠快一點公布給大家看嗎我看前面都盯著你啊部長是不是這樣你下禮拜來報告那個如果又有問題的話搞不好又換掉一個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1114.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1114.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
報告當然會上網阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1126.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1152.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
報告直接公佈當然一定是上網啊當天就直接上網不用等兩個禮拜是不是報告為什麼要等兩個禮拜報告當天公佈當然當然就上網啊就當天報告下禮拜來立法院報告的時候同時上網讓前名可以檢視報告當然要上網啊當然OK大家就等著下禮拜拭目以待希望下禮拜不是火越燒越大是止血而且讓我們反霸凌進入一個新的里程碑好不好共同來捍衛我們讓我們所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1153.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1153.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
主席 |
| IVOD_ID |
157829 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157829 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-12 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-04T14:09:55+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-04T14:29:14+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |