| IVOD_ID |
15781 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15781 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-02 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-1-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期第7次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-02T08:30:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-02T15:52:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
07:21:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609d6d579ee4e7bcd72ad9f551ce5fa921f3be8d109af184be4964dd50aa56823705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日）
二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）
三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。
四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:15 - 15:52:00 |
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26455.50846875 |
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1796.497 |
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報告院會現在繼續開會進行審計長報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算即附屬單位決算即中計表審核報告中央政府前瞻基礎建設第三期特別決算審核報告中華民國110年至111年度中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治即 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1826.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1831.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
紓困振興特別決算審核報告中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30日審核經過並被諮詢請審計部陳審計長報告主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1853.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1878.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
各位委員、女士、先生答應審議中華民國111年度中央政府總結算總結算、附屬單位結算及重計表營業部分、非營業部分及前瞻基礎建設計畫第三期特別結算嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別結算等審核報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1879.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1904.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
應邀列席報告審核情形﹑助感榮幸﹑僅二要報告如下一、總結算部分一百一十一年度稅入結算﹑審定為兩兆七千一百三十二億元﹑稅出結算﹑審定為兩兆兩千一百三十九億元﹑稅入稅出相抵剩餘四千九百九十二億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1906.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1933.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
在物資償還結算一千五百億元．經照事審定收支剩餘計三千四百九十二億元．一百一十一年度國營事業結算．審定總收入三兆三千兩百一十三億元．總支出三兆四千六百二十億元．淨損一千四百零六億元． |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1936.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1939.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
損定繳戶數為2,004億元111年度非營業特種基金結算損定總收入3,7284億元總租出3,5985億元剩餘為1,298億元損定結繳供戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1960.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1968.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
225億元是中央政府前瞻基礎建設計劃第三期特別結算稅數結算損定為5億元稅數結算損定為2263億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1976.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2000.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
5.中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及施困振興特別結算﹐稅入結算損定為18億億元﹐稅出結算損定為8,347億億元。再來報告稅入稅出與收支之平衡政府助推動財政健全方案以來﹐財政收支結構逐步改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2001.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2021.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
協助一百一十二年底值：中央政府：一年以上：詐欲未償：已有實際視為五兆八千一百八十七億元。三、審核綜合成果：一百一十一年度各措審核報告：共即提出六百五九項重要審核意見： |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2023.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2044.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
稽查發現財務上違修案件40件：其中違修情節重大違法：報請監察案何處或移送檢調機關者11件：考核各機關施政績效：經報告監察案者40項：是重要審核意見：本部連來 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2045.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2064.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
已就政府重要施政計畫及攸關民生之重要議題等施以查核．並嚴提重要審核意見之則要報告如下政府自107年推動我國少主義化對策計畫截至111年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2066.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2090.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
抵制．即已投入經費兩千四百九十六億元．對於減輕育兒家庭經濟壓力．有相當注意．為少子女化成因多元復雜．緩解不易．且生育年齡．國人已五成未婚．容待除夕優化相關對策．鼓勵速領結婚．解決影響國人婚姻意願之癥結問題． |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2096.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2099.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
政府會擴大長照補助對象：推動長照2.0計畫：截至111年抵值：累計投入2,257億元：推動以來長照資源及照護人力快速成長： |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2111.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2137.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
社區整體照顧服務單位是增至111年底之1萬1個照護員人士增至111年底之9萬1人﹐為長照裁員穩定性較為不足﹐為應應我國超高齡化﹐人口之龐大長照需求﹐容帶擴展多元裁員策措方式﹐又不問長照祭典﹐不禁 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2138.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2153.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
部件進度落後：部分宿縣、住宿機構：床位供給不足：及照護員保障容帶提升。三、行政院為強化租通信安全能力： |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2155.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2174.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
沿提國家諸通安全計畫：截至111年底子：完成366個A、B級公務機關及關鍵基礎設施導入諸通安全弱點通報機制培訓公司部門諸安人力：為部分機關配置諸安專責人員未達 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2177.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2197.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
租通安全管理法所定下限：對於民間企業購資保護監管力道上代強化：以維護消費者購租安全。是政府推動反毒行動多年：其達到抑制毒品再換：降低毒品新生之酸酮目標： |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2199.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2228.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
在有關部門通力合作下：輸用毒品人士減少與建成效：為因毒品既有成癮性：輸用者再患比例容高：量出患輸用毒品者年齡低於19歲：新生毒品層次不窮：公司部門檢驗量能上代提升：毒品防治基金用於反毒先導經費有限：上代益智資源提升教育先導料能。五 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2229.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2245.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
政府為解決老屋耐震能力不足問題：並促進都市土地再開發利用：辦理都市更新發展計畫：強化政府主導及鼓勵民間：助足實施都市更新機制。 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2247.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2256.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
以核定實施都更數月計劃1075件．為老建築重建案3516件．為全國屋齡35年之老屋高達462萬一戶．因都更為老重建受及施前處理．足行進度緩慢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2273.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2281.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
6.推動都市計畫特定專用區之劃設與開發。全國特定專用區面積計有19,895公頃。為部分政府、特級民間申請設置之特定專用區已合併多年,且久未開發。為達劃設為特定專用區之目的﹐期待各相關職管機關強化監督管理機制。7. |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2303.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2311.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
政府為解決青年族群面臨買不起又租不好的租住問題﹐以提供社會住宅及補貼數、租住、協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2314.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2341.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
為主要對象：近年來社會住宅執行量能曾穩定增加趨勢：為部分社會住宅工程因近年營造業缺工：營建成本高漲：廠商要意願低落：助衛能順利發包：單元獲釋新建制度。政府為除夕改善交通安全嚴定道安沓岸 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2344.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2364.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
推動交通工程執法、教育先導、公路監理等防住措施：為一百一十一年度交通事故數完人數：達三千零八十五人：超越方案之目標。補助地方政府改善街道環境品質：為全國 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2367.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2385.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
擁有以三分之一的路段尚未電纜地下化：超過三分之一的道路：輪行道靜寬不足：最低標準。九政府為推動促進轉型之國家前瞻基礎建設計畫：基礎建設至106年9月至114年8月：辦理前瞻基礎建設計畫：其中 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2395.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2401.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
第三期編列2298億元：即國家發展委員會評估：第三期計劃實施期間共計創造14萬餘工作機會：帶動民間投資4000餘億元：以後續具體成果：為現實計劃管好機制：為就已執行完淨者之後續營運及效益：建立全面性評估制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2422.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2444.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
又第1期、第2期、第3期特別決算：截至111年底值：上有12項、32項、101項的分支計劃為執行完進。十、政府為因應嚴重透視傳染性肺炎疫情：以防治、施困、振興三大步驟推動各項因應措施。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2445.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2473.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
有助提升國人疾病預防能力：及完結受疫情影響之產業及個人衝擊：並提振國內經濟：為執行過程將有未曾週頭情勢：有待政府參計各項疫情因應措施之執行經驗：前面審慎檢討各面向之作業之利弊得失：以作為日後新興傳染病之因應對策： |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2475.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2488.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
損失的功能之一在於協助國家良善治理本部近年來對於特別針對各界普遍官制的少子女化、長照2.0、毒品環制等都項重要施政議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2490.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2507.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
進行系統性多年期的諮審計：並自108年度起：以專章聯繫揭露於各年度總結算審核報告：經行政院及各有關主管機關：原提進行措施：已有具體對策及成效。 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2512.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2539.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
此外：本部會應應社會脈動：以將近期各界普遍關注之打雜：食安、交通安全、改善手頭分配：等都攸關國際民生議題：納列為本113年度之查核工作重點：除其加強查核：發揮損失功能：以上誤要之報告：敬請主席、各位委員、女士、先生、主教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2546.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2549.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
謝謝陳審計長之報告現在進行委員諮詢每位委員詢答時間不得逾15分鐘輪到諮詢委員如不在場視為放棄第一位我們請吳委員私謠諮詢謝謝院長有請我們審計長麻煩請 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2576.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2577.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
陳審議長備選委員好陳審議長早上我們所有審計部門的同仁大家辛苦大家早安剛剛我聆聽了您的報告當然那是口頭報告那今天有三個主題好幾本厚厚的這個審計報告我都盡可能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2603.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2619.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
盡可能就我關切的議題去關注去研讀那有利於我的專業的問政那首先您剛說到審計機關之所以存在是因為大家可以發揮審計的專業然後有助於政府的良善治理 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2620.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2648.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
然後透過你們的專業能夠提出非常多的系統性多年期的完整的報告有利於政府來年編列預算乃至於預算執行的層面能夠有所精進當然對於立法委員你們的存在跟專業也大有必要因為藉由你們系統性多年期的長期的審計的觀察也能夠提供給國會議員專業監督很多好的建議首先我肯定大家感謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2649.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2674.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
今天我要就教於您有幾個主題第一個就是最近吵得沸沸揚揚的特別預算的制度我們非常遺憾特別預算的制度行之有年不論誰執政都有一套非常嚴謹的程序但是這幾年來持續的被汙名化、被政治化了那我今天在這裡就教於您也特別有意義我們立法院有立法院的活字典周外來秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2675.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2689.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那我們陳審計長在我看來也是我們主計您待過主計機關現在是在審計部也是台灣的預算制度的這個危機百科所以就交於您我覺得特別有意義下一頁首先 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2690.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2717.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
國家的預算程序有法源有法律的授權然後各部會各單位都來明確分工所以這一套完善的預算制度是不可撼動的首先我們適用的法規非常多喔預算法、會計法、決算法、審計法、公庫法、財政紀律法、公共債務法等等所以這是一個政府明確就一個預算的制度面的分工在籌編面是行政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2719.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2724.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
在審議權的部分就是立法院在預算執行的層面當然是行政機關負有權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2726.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2753.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那最後一關就是今天在場的大家預算的執行要在double check的事後監督就是審計權所以一個國家政府的預算制度從編轉到監督到執行到事後的再審核有行政權有立法權有審計權的分工所以這一套預算制度行之有年都沒有改變嘛對不對對好 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2753.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2771.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
下一頁那今天的三個主題一個是中央政府總預算的決算這個我們非常有經驗第二個呢就是謝謝你們厚厚的有關於前瞻基礎建設的特別預算跟這個紓困的特別預算也都有完整的報告這代表著 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2771.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2787.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
立法委員我吳子瑤針對行政部門提出來的特別預算或是公務預算我有事前執行前的監督權審計機關就是事後的審計權所以是雙重的double check那 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2789.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2805.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這也沒有改變嗎一直是這樣嗎好下一頁預算法83條針對特別預算有4個執行的但書也就是基於國防緊急設施或戰爭可以動用特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2805.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2834.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
基於國家經濟的重大變故可以執行特別預算重大災變當然需要特別預算第四款就是不定期或數年一次之重大政事可以啟用特別預算這是預算法83條的現行規定這幾年來也沒有改變那您認為就您的審計跟主計的專業為什麼預算法要有這四項的執行的理由授權給行政部門因為要應付不可變的 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2836.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2839.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
不可預測的嗎所以他是行政權的範疇沒有錯嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2841.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2870.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那主計總署也特別說明了其實我們公務機關也應當有檢討的必要因為公務機關的預算是一年編一次某種程度它欠缺了彈性某種程度它也僵化了所以才需要有特別預算去補這個不足嘛您也都同意這個論述嘛對所以這四項您都同意要持續存在有利於政府的良善治理跟行政權限的推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2871.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2872.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
對的好謝謝您 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2873.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2901.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
您說得非常清楚預算法83條行之有年不論誰執政都是一個督督噔噔的制度不是因為誰作主才可以這樣贏嘛下一頁所以我這裡也整理出來特別預算行之有年藍綠執政時期都有編列而且行政部門善用這樣一個法律的授權這是一個正向的這是一個積極的因應國家去面對所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2902.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2922.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
必要的即時的預算的調配在陳水扁2000年到2008年他用預算法83條的第二款經濟的理由跟第四款就是這個重大正式他有基隆河整治他有這個擴大工建有水患治理跟石門水庫的整治計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2924.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2936.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
阿扁總統時期也啟用了剛剛預算法的第三款就是因應災害那時候的SARS以及921災後重建都依法來編列特別預算下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2937.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2959.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
馬英九執政的時期也依據同法的第二款跟第四款他做了振興經濟消費券的發放他做了所謂愛台十二建設的擴大攻堅他也做了流域的綜合治理同樣的馬英九前總統也依據同法的第三款在莫拉克風災之後他做了1165億的特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2962.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2984.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
所以馬英九執政的時候也有所以我是非常的不解當馬英九執政的時候他可以依據預算法83條的第4款來推動愛台12建設而在野黨不會說那是害台12建設不會行政權有權限依法我們就是監督我們不會去推翻 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2985.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2995.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那為什麼在野黨到現在一直要把前瞻建設說成前坑建設我覺得這是完全的雙標 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2997.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3015.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
馬英九可以依預算法83條第4款來推動愛台12建設可是現在國民黨要修法把這一個單書砍掉因為現在執政的不是國民黨這就嚴重的強害了整個預算的制度嘛下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3015.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3039.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
回到現在此時此刻時空背景在2016到2024年蔡英文政府也依據預算法的第二款第四款做了前瞻建設做了易後的振興大家都領到六千塊結果國民黨還要加碼六千不夠要發一萬哦這都是同樣的法律授權的特別預算啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3040.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3068.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
如果國民黨要砍掉特別預算的但書那麼以後6000塊不只領不到3000塊、1000塊都沒有了因為政府行政權已經被拔卡拔手那蔡英文時期當然我們面臨了COVID-19依法也動用了紓困的預算跟疫情的防治當然因應國際的兩岸局勢蔡總統也依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3069.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3091.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
83條的第一款因應國防的需要也採購了我們的軍事必要的設備所以藍綠都有審計長您在這裡非常有經驗每一個只要有特別預算編列前端的監督是國會的事後端的審計專業就是你們要處理的事情每一個特別預算都是循同樣的程序然後你們同樣認真負責的寫出報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3094.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3113.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
給政府做參考是否因為是國民黨這層或是民進黨這層有什麼差別是否沒有差別這就是大家發揮專業本於職責有助於政府的預算制度的穩健有助於國家的良善治理下一頁現在問題來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3116.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3136.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
國民黨也好民眾黨也好都提案要修預算法83條有6個案子但是殊途同歸啦都是要把我剛剛秀出來的預算法83條的4款第4款刪除或者是給予要立法院同意才可進行的這種額外的但書 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3137.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3148.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那你來看,剛才我們說這樣幾三次現在國民黨還是民眾黨要提案把預算法的83條的第4款拿掉,您的專業意見我認為啦,計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3157.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3185.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
開始的計劃很重要是要加強計劃的審議沒錯這個任何的特別預算它有特別條例在前計劃項目明確然後特別預算的編傳當然要主計機關還有事後的審計機關關關都要過中間還有一關叫做國會所以你覺得計劃完備嘛所以你的意思是說去砍掉第四款這真的就是沒天良沒天利對不對也沒道理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3187.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3195.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
盡量避免但是我們還是會尊重大院的決議盡量避免當然希望國民黨民眾黨委員有聽進去下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3197.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3225.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以特別預算如果國民黨民眾黨要用國會的多數硬把預算法83條的第4款拿掉的話其實特別預算就名存實亡了行政權就凌駕了立法權了他違反了憲法第70條立法委員不得為預算增加之決議他有相當的立法理由因為立法委員就是監督權他也違反了大法官釋字391號跟613號的行政立法權利分立運作的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3226.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3235.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
所以這樣一個修法是立法權來凌駕行政權：更是壓縮了政府應變的預算彈性：就是扯國家的後腿。 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3239.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3257.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
下一頁同樣非常諷刺而也要就教於您國民黨的委員一方面要砍特別預算的法源一方面自己要提特別預算也就是國民黨的黨編提出了三個特別條例其中花東快速公路要2500億起跳國道6號東延要8000億起跳環島高鐵那是條來條去現在不知道開多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3264.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3278.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
同樣的理由立法權不能凌駕行政權同樣的理由任何一個交通建設剛剛講的三項建設政府應當經過評估該支持就支持我本人也沒有反對這三大建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3279.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3298.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
只是說行政部門您剛剛講得非常好省計長說任何一個特別預算的提出需要有完整的計劃嘛所以說這樣子用委員的用一個特別條例綁特別預算然後立法委員提出而且限期10年完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3299.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3322.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
這還是在執政啊他完全違反了交通專業的評估也違反今天在座的各位你們的審計專業你們的預算編轉的專業嘛所以這種違憲的大撒幣由立法委員來提出用特別條例綁特別預算本席是認為其其以為不可啊下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3323.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3348.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
這是重大公共建設必須進行的工程評估跟財務試算從第一階段的規劃設計到最後的施工其實這都搭配我們的財務計劃必須進行可行性評估必須有綜合規劃必須有基本設計然後進入細部設計然後到執行面的施工發包到完工驗收 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3349.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3375.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
如果今天國民黨的委員們用立委的提案：用特別條例：限期10年：開罰罪以5倍下：規程也都以5倍下就好了沒有精準的工程試算沒有精確的財務評估那這樣子以後大家忙不完了審計部門的同仁你們針對這三大特別預算未來寫出來的審計報告可能是這裡的10倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3377.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3400.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
十大本因為它前端的計劃不夠周延交通有交通的專業預算有預算的專業這就是這整個政府大家分工立法院能做的就是監督審計部門能做的就是事後的審核若是國民黨立委提出這樣的特別的條例特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3402.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3419.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那行政院關的算了交通部關的算了審計部門你們可能也關門算了這是違反憲法的授權違反政府的預算制度違反國家重大建設應當有的完整審核 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3420.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3434.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
下頁所以我整理出來國民黨一方面提案要凍結特別條例一方面又要自己來做特別預算違反了憲法70條違反了大法官釋字391號跟613號下頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3437.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3451.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
以立委來提出特別預算更是：或者是特別條例：他有的還要用基金來處理違反了財政紀律法第5條、第8條新設基金都要明確地說明基金之來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3453.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3467.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
預算法91條立法委員所提法律案大幅增加稅出或減少稅入者應先徵詢行政院之意見指明彌補資金之來源這都有清楚的預算法財政紀律法的規範規範所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3470.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3490.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我是在這裡預告啦你們要基於你們的審計專業如果讓這種違憲違反政府制度的特別條例綁特別預算或者是特別條例綁新設基金的話以後審計部門真的不敵不告不賣完了您是不是綜合答覆是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3503.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3511.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
謝謝吳委員私要質詢,也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。接下來,我們請登記第二位,紅委員孟凱。請問。謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3532.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3533.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
主席,謝謝。麻煩請省記者再請陳省記者備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3544.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3564.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
委員好好,沈記長好沈記長在順著剛剛委員的一個詢答啦我再來確認一下預算法第83條裡面有四款的一個項目其中包括說國家的災勢或是經濟重大變故以及不定期數年或一年的重大震勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3565.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3586.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那有官員、具名的官員馬上就受訪講說如果說真的預算法83條刪除第四項不定期或數年一次的重大政事的話未來國家發生大地震或者是經濟大蕭條我們當然不希望有這樣的一個可能性但如果說真的有大地震的話可不可以動用預算法第83條 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3588.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3605.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那如果是緊急危難是不是重大災變重大災變緊急危難所以大地震的話一樣可以用預算法第83條特別預算可以動用對不對如果說有經濟大蕭條真的發生百年一見經濟大蕭條能不能用預算法第83條這個在預算裡面有 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3609.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3635.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
國家第二款嘛國家經濟重大變故嘛對不對所以換言之真的有發生百年一件的大地震或是發生百年一件的經濟大蕭條完全不受第四款如果說沒有考慮到的話一樣可以動用預算法83條是不是這樣子要符合那三款的條件是啊所以說符合剛剛本席說講的那三款條件嘛對不對所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3636.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3663.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
答案非常的明確了吧所以剛剛我們有委員明明這個是一個答詢的部分但是委員講了半天但是都沒有給你時間發言本席特別給你時間來發言跟回答就是預算法83條其實是特別預算可以因應如果國家假設真的有重大百年一件的大地震或者是百年一件經濟大蕭的話預算法83條也是可以因應的但是我們希望台灣風調雨順國泰民難好 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3665.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3669.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
再回來請教最近大家吵得沸沸揚揚就要補貼台電電價上漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3672.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3698.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那本時有看到說之前我們在經濟委員會也有委員有詢問過主計長主計長講說今年有可能要再補助台電一千五百億一千億或一千五百億為什麼呢因為之前政府已經有補助台電不管是三千三百億不管是一千五百億或是億後特別預算五百億現在今年又在說一千億啊但主計長答詢是說依規定要等審計部審定之後才能動用 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3699.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3718.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那我想請教目前什麼時候審計部會審計因為結算他們有一個有一個期程他們行政院那邊會4月底送過來那我們要花3個月的時間7月底送到大院那我們審定的期間7月31號會審定完成所以現在預計因為主計長已經有講說有這樣的額度所以說預計一定會有這樣的額度是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3724.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3737.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
額度要等我們審計以後因為中間我們在審計的時候多多少少會租出可能會增減收入會增減大概這樣初步他們的結算估出來有2000多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3739.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3754.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
有兩千多億但是這樣子多多少少扣除有可能會有一千億以上來再去做一個補貼那我想請教我們這相關來說稅入稅出也都要經過立法院來做一個確認他可以直接行政部門就補貼嗎這個要變預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3758.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3784.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
也要編預算嗎?要編預算不管是之前編列預算不管是用總預算或者說再編列一個特別預算總是還要再經過立法院嗎?對對對是不是?這個要租出啊所有的租出都要經過立法院是所以說我想有些奇怪啊為什麼像現在這邊討論說調漲電價然後這個政府已經講是說就一定會補助台電那好像都沒有經過立法院這當立法院完全是橡皮圖章嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3785.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3808.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這個是他可能在行政部門的一個目前在他的在提出在討論行政部門不用考慮到立法院就對立法部門不用尊重立法部門甚至行政部門也不用考慮到我們審計單位就認為是說他現在已經有錢就可以來補貼那反正七月的時候你們一定會交出一個至少超過一千億的這個餘額來讓他們發是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3812.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3839.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這個因為他們今年的他們會做粗估結算粗估出來了有這樣的金額來 沈議長我知道你可能不好答本席看了這個這一些的報告連書面資料本席都有翻閱過其中用電的部分我想你可能審計部門也很重視跟這個掌握我想請教一下現在經濟部這邊一直講說要大家當個聰明的用電人挑選時間來用電說這樣可以比較便宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3842.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3856.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那我們有沒有帶頭以身作則、審計單位有沒有去了解過去到現在台電推了那麼久或經濟部推了那麼久的智慧電表我們所有的中央機關到底有多少機關使用智慧電表審計部門有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3857.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3884.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
有沒有要求我們對於台電的這些電費的問題我們是有查過像它的電表我們有多少個中央機關有裝這個智慧電表這個部分我在我的手上沒有這些資料我們有沒有要求中央機關至少帶頭要節約用電因為現在經濟部門告訴我們就是說民眾可以當個聰明的用電人只要你裝智慧電表可以比較便宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3885.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3904.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那我想是說有多少的智慧電表是我們中央機關自己有裝那照理講審計單位是最後把關預算的部分我們公堂當用則用當審則審能夠省下一塊錢是一塊錢嘛所以審計部門過去到現在有沒有要求中央機關帶頭以身作則是不是應該要裝智慧電表 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3905.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3921.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我們有要把這個智慧電表希望盡量趕快普及因為這個不只中央各單位連所有的商家所有的我們的民眾這樣的話對於我們的我們現在普及率有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3924.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3942.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
普及率因為我們有給他意見啦當時的情況因為那個智慧電表啊所以就您的了解我們現在普及率因為不大謝謝啦 沈議長您講得很委婉啦其實現在智慧電表的普及率是非常低啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3943.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3965.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那我會提出來就是認為是說我們審計單位其實真的可以要求我們的中央主管機關用電也好都可以以身作則而不是嘴巴一直叫民眾當聰明的用電人但實際上自己沒有以身作則來那個再請教一下審計長食安問題最近也大家非常的關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3966.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3990.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我們在省紀部2022年也就是民國111年度就已經有報告指出國際食品警訊監控機制行事多年了但是在111年也發生過冰淇淋、泡麵等驗出致癌物那當時就有講是說食藥署沒有掌握問題產品於國內流通的情況這是省紀部的一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3992.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4019.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
去年又發生了美國驗出A肝病毒而有這個邊境管制的一個部分那我想請教這個今年又有所謂的蘇丹紅的狀況那到底過去這兩年省紀部111年就已經有提出說衛福部食藥署應該要去做改善要加強警訊監控並且滾動檢討標準作業流程到底食安層出不窮 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4021.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4023.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
省紀部不能夠接受我們現在行政部門這樣子怠惰的行為嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4024.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4050.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我們今年113年因為食安問題關心民眾的生命還有健康很大所以我們今年113年我們現在在查整個食安從食安五環每個從沿途控管重建生產管理還有加強查驗還有加重廠商的責任食安五環是什麼時候提出來105年 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4052.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4071.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
105年2016年嘛那過去民進黨執政的8年的時間呢到現在2024年的還在檢討說食安五環你有沒有印象當中過去這幾年好像每年我們的審計報告裡面一定會有一則一章一節就是討論到是說衛福部也好或是我們相關單位的食安問題要精進檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4074.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4102.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
尤其你的2023年還有講說下半年要啟動食安專案調查這是媒體上的報導你這邊有講到下半年要啟動食安專案調查結果蘇丹紅事件就爆發了那蘇丹紅還是親口承認講說這不是個案這個是系統性的犯罪系統性的食安問題那行政部門到底有沒有把我們審計的建議提醒要求當一回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4103.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4117.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們索案問題我會列為我們審計部查到改善為止我們有這個決心沈記長您有這個決心多久了過去有沒有這個決心 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4118.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4142.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
過去有111年的時候有這個決心2022年有這個決心結果2023年又有美國事件2023年有這個決心2024年有蘇丹紅事件2024年有這個決心行政部門他有可能520之後官員拍拍屁股走人我們的決心在哪裡我們的要求在哪裡那我們有沒有送相關的監察院來去做一個調查報告這個都會送 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4144.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4170.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
會送?您說的?對所以蘇丹紅事件預計要送誰?這個監察案已經啟動調查什麼時候會出來?這個我們6月底會出來因為我們7月會弄損我報告出來所以整個蘇安的問題我們會從蘇安武漢的每個面向把它找出來慢慢共同和行政部門把這個問題看看能不能做一個解決做一個解決,非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4171.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4201.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
沈議長本席站在這邊跟您我們其實在討論每一個問題都是站在同一陣線食安問題我雖然身為在野黨委員但是我從來都不希望發生因為發生了食安問題受苦受傷受害的就是我們台灣民眾也因此能夠做好把關這當然應該要做好把關但為什麼今天會再次提出來就是因為當我看到我們審計部門同仁做出那麼一大本而且這只是一本喔其實我們有上下策喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4201.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4202.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
陳議長我會記住你的決心這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4226.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4252.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
再來您今天的口頭報告裡面洋洋灑灑但是您的第一個最重要的報告你列為是哪一個我們在做關鍵審計就包括食安、包括少子化、包括...非常好第一個少子化少子化推動計畫我們從107年推動到113年這過去6年時間總共花了多少公務預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4254.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4267.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
兩千多億四千八百五十一億差了一倍四千八百多億的公務預算來針對少子化的對策計畫結果我們的生育率 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4269.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4289.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
從投入的時候106年是1.13人逐步降到110年是0.98人到111年創新低來到0.87人4000多億花下去結果反而我們的出生率不進反退變成111年的時候只有0.87人 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4292.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4308.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
審計部裡面的資料你們也寫得很好阿兩大重點阿一、計畫著重在家庭經濟支柱跟營造友善的家庭職場環境但是這個是對於已婚或是有小孩的可是對於未婚族群的關注不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4309.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4337.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
就是說已婚或有小孩的一直著重一直丟入資源但是未婚的連結婚都不敢結婚你何來奢望他能夠生小孩這是審計報告的第一點第二點計劃由衛福部跟教育部輪流擔任計劃窗口國人不婚晚婚沒有主責單位結果相關部會在報告裡面只針對執行的產出後續進度跟未經之夜沒有著墨待處理事項甚至還寫零 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4339.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4363.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那我想請教六年過去了今年要做一個結案少子化的對策計畫今年要做一個結案四千多億花了結果我們到現在還在討論是說到底哪一個單位要去主責是衛福部也好還是教育部也好那還有國人晚婚未婚的情況沒有主責單位沈記長四千多億給行政部門丟了丟了開了沒了怎麼解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4369.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4377.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
當然知道複雜所以我們花了四千多億不是四千多塊不是四千多萬是四千多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4390.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4414.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
很複雜沒有錯6年的時間給你行政部門了省紀部也做出報告了你自己的報告講是說行政部門沒有主責單位結果你現在在幫行政部門講話你在講說很複雜然後你要講說盡量我剛剛講你是學數字科學的人怎麼會接那麼多文青的字眼怎麼那麼多這種形容詞來形容勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4417.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4432.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這個做一個在行政部門在工作上我曾經在行政部門工作過所以都有他的難處但是我們我們損失部一定在後面一定會加強督促沈警長 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4434.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4448.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
在一個位置上就做一個位置的事你現在是審計長你是要幫人民把關預算那麼厚的一個計畫書那麼厚的一個審計書本席可以把它看完就是因為我重視你們的一個意見就是因為我覺得是說你們意見是專業的但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4462.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4473.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
謝謝紅委員孟凱的詢問也謝謝陳省記者的備詢接下來我們請登記第三位張委員齊凱詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4518.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4529.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我們先來談監察院長陳菊的舉手之勞大可不必陳菊的舉手之勞大可不必我先請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4546.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4564.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
陳菊說叫你們生計部會設發言人,你照辦了嗎?我們本來就有發言人你是說陳菊不知道你們有發言人叫你設發言人嗎?應該知道應該知道,那為什麼叫你們設發言人?這段時間你們每次提出來的這個決算報告一晚都是拍手叫好的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4566.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4593.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
很好的監督政府的這個決算說是什麼接壁的這個秘籍對不對接壁的這個神書所以對你們很肯定啊可是相對的陳菊、陳院長說叫你要設發言人要出來幫忙辯護他不曉得那個決定報告是你們寫的嗎你們幫民主民高勘緊了荷包為什麼叫你們出來否定自己的講法呢沒提啊因為對於我們的損盡啊有不同的解讀所以他是善意提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4595.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4617.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
他是善意善意提前他不曉得政治力跟政黨不能夠介入獨立的這個審計權嗎?這不是干議了他是個民主前輩陳菊是個台灣民主的前輩他怎麼可以干議獨立的這個審計權啊?前輩我給你看這個你應該比我熟悉啊審計法第10條怎麼說?審計人員依法獨立行使其審計職權不受干涉對不對?對了對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4625.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4646.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
為了怕監察院跟審計部前者不分﹐受到﹐審計前受到干擾﹐監察院跟審計部的前責範圍原則﹐明明確確寫著﹐監察委員不得影響審計人員﹐獨立行使審計前﹐是否這樣?是所以任何的監察委員﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4647.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4671.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
跟陳菊他怎麼可以去干涉你們怎麼可以政治力或者要你們設什麼發言人呢?要你們出來講自己已經提出的這個結算報告呢?他是善意提醒希望我們有些各度解讀的地方啊能夠對外有一個說明好,謝謝你我知道你人比較閒聊你一直在幫他講話可是你要捍衛我們所有審計人員這個獨立好不好?好 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4674.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4702.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這段時間立法院跟媒體對你們是非常肯定的不是只有JB的這個JB的這個密集這個事情而已你們幫人民勘緊了荷包幫人民省了很多的錢人民是感謝你的人民會挺住你好不好謝謝不只捍衛自己審計部的前線我們的審計人員是優秀的一定捍衛他們獨立行使之前跟他們專練好接下來我們輕鬆一點接下來我們幫我們的朱先生我們的呂范玲E6韓國瑜教訓一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4704.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4707.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
現在韓國瑜韓院長辦公的所在是在以前舊北俄尼的舊教室嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4717.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4738.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
現在的日本人以前就是北二女以前有北一女對不對中山女高現在叫北二女其實她以前叫北三女北二女在哪裡現在大家出來除了議場看到的立法院的這個馬蹄形這個以前是北二女的學生上課的地方所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4740.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4762.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
韓國瑜、韓院長、保安、周恩來他們所有的工作人員他們是在舊教室以前你校的這個教室裡面辦公可是相對你看到的唐鳳立在上班他早上去訂好新光大樓在上班這個落差是不是非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4763.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4779.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
事實上不是只有世衛發展部、目前為止NCC、有些辦公室、工程會都能做到裡面對不對今天本席做個倡議有沒有可能現在在外面租辦公室的我前面清查過差不多18億左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4781.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4802.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這些在外面租辦公室的想辦法去找一個中級的辦公室找一個像荒廢或者閒置的學校搬進去以後每年我們至少省十幾億的租金好不好好我們一起來努力好我們把這個錢省下來為人民勘緊荷包把平時平高省下來好好謝謝委員新規定來我們詳細的來看省紀部發生的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4806.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4834.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
你看速發部的我們回到速發部的四個大問題剛講我們立法院用以前北二里的一個教室可是呢速發部去找了地厚臺北市租金第二高的星光大樓他的租金太貴現在粉絲去追又發現一個新的問題了一本價一年半對不對用了多少錢什麼時候下期買七千萬對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4837.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4857.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
七千萬標市一年應四千六百六十七萬結果啦我最新追查到了一今年延月份又去簽了一個六年三億的租金是否可以領?如果三億用買就好啊誰可以租?是不是?三億都可以在新北市很多地方買新房子啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4858.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4868.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
幹麻拿去租?這是第一個大問題。第二個,進井細清六百六十七萬已經太少了。他簽了又多的一年花了人民納稅錢333萬,這個要不要處理? |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4874.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4897.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我們這一個啊我們還是因為其實你要租房子啊要有要經過國產史看看有沒有閒置的房地啦我們現在的閒置房地啊還是非常多啦還有新北地我們要替市衛部唐鳳說一個話啦這其實你看現在有人在開槍事實上任何的暴力我們都是譴責的暴力不能夠解決問題那老實講 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4900.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4925.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
樹發部跟唐鳳BTC租地厚星光大樓這麼貴的房子,中央也有責任啊!租界署,還有你剛講的國有財產局,他應該前面去清查啊!像現在很好啊!現在舊的財政部的大樓他新的搬出去之後,舊的他整修完之後,補強完之後國產署現在就在裡面辦公啊!就省了很多錢,對不對?第一個我剛講的,方會的學校、退場的學校趕快去找 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4926.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4953.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
若當初中央是這樣幫事務發布事務發布就不會發生這個問題所以我們等一下有一個重要責任我們等一下幫事務發布找新家我去追了這個問題後來唐鳳跟事務發布也跟齊凱講跟本席講他們的合約裡面訂了一條只要他們有找到合適租金比較低廉的地方或者有中繼的地方他們半年前跟星光大樓講他們就可以搬出去所以我們來努力幫被罵的臭頭的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4954.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4982.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
數位部、數位發展部找新家好不好好數化部現在還有一個大的問題我跟大家討論一下他之前說要搬,搬了溝通不好所以台北市本錢花了1.8億蓋了南門的中繼市場對不對結果你看花了1.8億然後用了四年新的美輪美奐的被拆掉了我覺得這個行政責任當初溝通不良這個審計部應該要去追一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4983.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5008.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那最嚴重的問題來了來我給大家看一下數位發展部現在最嚴重的問題是什麼地方就是他的租金以往就是他的總分啊主席你知道他的公設多少嗎他去租這個地後星光大樓他的公設多少42那他等於是有58%啊結果唐鳳還拍了片說什麼他的裝潢一坪才兩萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5010.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5040.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
你應該扣掉那42%對不對我們給他看一下他如果實際的是多少錢我們看一下他本來談論拍片說是不到2萬塊事實上你扣掉42%以後他實際的裝潢費用一半超過400塊這會不會太浪費人民人民的民脂民膏了好我們現在拉大來看我們來看一下本席去清查了113年度所有在外面租用辦公室的單位我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5042.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5065.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
市委發展部才排第六?市委發展部被罵得半死的市委發展部才排第六啊?第一個是哪裡?外交部,外交部當然這九億多九億五千多萬台幣部分是外賓做辦公室對不對?那個是外館嘛那就要買啊對不對?對應該要買啊我們有要求他齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5067.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5089.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以有,審計部有要求嘛有要求想辦法把他九千把九億都在外管的這個錢把他省下來你買了以後你外交如果都很順當然一直用嘛租金就省下來嘛對不對第一個哪天要賣還是賺錢啊所以外管的這部分很清楚就要趕快買好那裡面的我們看一下看下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5091.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5092.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
本席很明確的倡議 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5112.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5141.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
世衛發展部已經講了只要給他合適的中繼站他半年前提出來之後他就可以搬進去所以我們趕快幫他找新家到哪邊找新家有兩個方法第一舊的財政部大樓他已經補強了現在可以再用10年對不對那現在是國產國產署國產署在裡面對不對如果早一點的話就給世衛部或給其他單位用好不好好第二個前面清查現在哪些學校是方會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5142.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5166.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
學歷法院不要只有我們院長在學校辦公以後中央部會包括NCC、工程會甚至消防署這些在外面出辦公室的搬到學校去辦公有沒有我們有清一下也有這樣的一個那透過這樣的努力我們一年至少可以省11的租金民脂民膏我們現在努力好接下來要談一個特別預算的問題對吳思堯民進黨的立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5169.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5190.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
特別提到這問題我覺得他可能沒有好好看你們的結算報告也沒有看立法院的公報吧新北電你們每一年的審計報告裡面提了很多特別預算腐爛的事情啊特別就是我講的啊都沒計畫沒有計畫就亂編錢亂花錢啊他怎麼可以要求預算法的地 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5193.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5209.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
83條的第4款不能修呢?第一個前面3款已經夠用了戰爭或者是緊急事情或者重大的災變第4條本身就是空白授權嘛第4條本來就要刪掉不只是審計部的審查報告裡面很多的例子清清楚楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5210.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5231.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
林進棟為醫警的財經專家、藤白賢、喜天才、阿扁、陳水扁當立委的時候﹐到現在的柯建民﹐很多立法委員、民進黨立法委員都提過要削掉這第四款啊。為什麼第四款不拿掉呢?我們明確來看,你看,特別醫生的現在已經變成什麼了呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5232.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5262.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
吞噬民脂民膏最大的黑洞?國債債台高築最大的這個元兇呢?我去做了一個統計為立定回告蔡英文事任這個總統執政,我們現在的債務六條多對不對?六條兩千多億其中將近四帳都是透過特別預算取債來的特別是剛講那個第四款的那個空白收錢最嚴重的也就是你們常提出來有很多缺失的我們再看一下蔡英文任內 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5264.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5292.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
提的這個特評預算是所有從蔣中正到蔣經國歷任的總統所有最多的這沒有腐爛的問題嗎我們看下一張光是結算報告裡面看到我看到很多例子前瞻基礎建設這個條例裡面本來軌道建設經費分價變多少七千兩百億對不對結果後來經過審計部的報告經過立法委員去追降到多少降到一千九百零三億的會上離間嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5295.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5314.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
基隆輕軌這更離譜了蔡英文說去跟基隆說什麼我要編81的基隆輕軌2020年可以通車結果到了2023年都沒有做跳票了變成輕軌變成要做捷運500、450而已到後來又增加到多少697億 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5317.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5323.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
這個有計劃嗎?現在不是阿,現在特別預算就是被濫用阿亂丟出來,亂編又亂花再看下一張,你看平和公路本價變多少?70百點百億,一下暴增到77.92億,前瞻旅館要3000給81億 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5346.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5373.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這個增加了幾百倍啊新竹棒球場你看天母棒球場整修才用了八千萬新竹棒球場一下用了十二億還弊案不斷這個特別預算預算法的八十三條的第四款是不是真的要刪掉這一個是不是確定前面三款已經夠用了對不對後面這次是一個空白授權嘛來我們看下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5374.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5393.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
他嚴重在什麼地方每一篇這個法提出來以後他都弄一個特別條例我們對預算都這麼熟悉的人他有本來公共債務跟財政基地有兩條非常重要的紅線第一條公債法的第五條的第七項就是所謂的債務的這個流量結果你看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5395.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5409.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
中央總預算跟特別預算每年的舉債額度不得超過其總額的這15%他先把這條紅線拿掉了不嚴守財政紀律第一條排除預算法第23條23條說什麼不能夠拿舉債跟車借作為經常性的支出對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5414.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5435.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
結果現在每一年都用了一堆的這個取債方式就是因為用了特別預算嘛所以本席非常明確的要求來我們看最後一張刪除特別預算第83條第4款空白授權就是那一條不定期或數年一次的重大正式而且要有計劃才有預算可行性評估一定要合理可用另外你一直在強調一點不要影響到地方的財政可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5444.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5455.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
所以第一,我們把天下豬的辦公室那十一省下來。第二個,特別一頓空賣壽田要趕快把它堵起來,不要變成人民生產稅錢一直漏出去,每一年漏掉一兩千億,對不起民眾好不好?我們共產黨要努力! |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5472.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5488.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
接下來我們請接下來我們請登記第4號陳委員培餘詢問好謝謝主席那有請沈記長謝謝再請陳審計長備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5500.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5522.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
委員好好 審計長早安這是第一次有機會跟審計長做交流之前有聽其他的立法院前輩提過關於立法委員的質詢或是看審計部的報告可以讓行政單位更加認真看待所以我們在審計部的報告裡面我們要先肯定審計部同仁的認真工作但是我們在這個相關的報告裡面我們時間有限我們趕快來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5522.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5544.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
在你們的報告當中關於這張投影片上面談到的少子化以及其延伸問題的因應對策其中我框紅線這一條你們寫到少子化延伸的對策其中你們放在第一個叫做提升婚育成效及婚育價值觀陳記長我想問一下什麼叫做婚育價值觀 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5547.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5561.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
就是說希望能夠有家庭觀念大家能夠結婚我們是希望多多結婚對於我們就有機會小孩就會多生一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5562.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5581.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
陳記長你覺得真的是只有結婚才能生小孩嗎?或者是說把少子化的這個責任歸咎在大家不想結婚如果我們讓一般的民眾看到這個報告您覺得對於這些不想結婚或是結了婚不想生小孩的人他們看到這件事情他們心裡面的感受是如何? |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5582.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5594.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我們是多面向因為結婚了也有生小孩的那個我們是多面向每一個面向我們都要去考慮才能夠因為要解這個問題我剛剛講錯綜混雜所以行政院已經請國科會做實證分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5598.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5628.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
是,我們剛剛也聽到在前面委員的這個詢問當中你也提到相關的分析可是我要再次的提醒喔在我們跟非常多的第一線或者是民間團體討論的過程當中我要再次的強調同時我相信這也是執政黨很重要的立場基本上育兒的責任絕對不會只是母親的責任或者是嫂子話的關係跟婚姻之間的關係我覺得都還有需要辯證討論的地方但是因為剛剛您說有相關的研究要進行我相信後續會再提供更先進的或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5629.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5643.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
不要把這兩件事情綁在一起了這樣子感覺讓人家覺得很保守的報告了我們相信我們非常非常期待好不好但是我們時間有限了我就是先簡單的提醒一下但是我們後續還是要看到還是要肯定這個審計部提到關於這個少子化 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5645.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5662.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
社家屬補助辦理建構0-20歲兒童社區公共托育計畫執行效率不彰公共化教保服務和強化准公共機制供需失衡沒有提供延長照顧服務以及教保服務人力結構不符合規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5663.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5690.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這確實是我目前在第一線所收集到大家對於所謂友善育兒環境職場大家在照顧小孩或是決定要不要生養小孩或是生養小孩之後要不要回到職場繼續貢獻自己的專業跟人力這個部分確實是很多人的考量所以這個部分我們看到審計部提出相關的糾正我們覺得很重要但是後續也要拜託審計部持續緊盯相關行政機關好這個部分可不可以請您回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5691.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5699.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
最終改善情形好那另外一個關於這個勞動部你們剛有提到部分但是我要說我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5700.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5724.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
鄭重的建議一個很重要的事情其實後續不管是托嬰、托幼的需求還有勞動部關於友善職場的部分其實有很多事情都要做包括我們也跟部長討論過如何遠距工作彈性工時我覺得這都是目前非常多年輕的家庭他們所需要的所以我們也希望不是口號如同您剛說持續緊盯好接下來我們來看一下另外關於這個運動的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5727.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5753.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我們在你們的報告裡面看到你們提到體育業務的糾正其中你們提到了足球六年計畫不知道這個部分您自己有沒有印象你們說推動足球六年計畫尚未達到世界排名的目標要持續精進國家隊的主訓參賽還有輔導企業球隊經營我想要問一下您覺得所謂的世界排名的目標放在這麼前面您的想法是為什麼為什麼會以這個為目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5754.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5778.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
因為我們是看到體育署有把這個列為目標我們的所有的損盡的那個依據都會根據這個計畫他們定的計畫主標給他給予提醒好那也就是說當一個國家主管體育的主管機關體育署他們認為增進國家排名是主要目標那我們就來看可是目前世界排名他們說沒有提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5779.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5808.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
企業球隊目前他們都是屬地經營可是目前在台灣屬地經營球隊經營只有一隊可是如果要精進所謂國家隊這些目標我們來看一下最大的困境是什麼好這個有一個六年足球計畫其實比起世界排名我們在基層或是在民間甚至在所有運動員還有包含兒少運動員還有積極參與投入自己家庭資源的家長身上我們看到另外一個更嚴重的問題我這邊務必要跟沈記長分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5809.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5836.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
到底足球推動資源的投入是不是真的花在倒口上是我們要更關心的我們看到有一個足球六年計畫甚至針對這個足球六年計畫民間的非常多團體他們還自己辦相關的檢討會還分享他們在各地第一線所聽到的一些困境表達他們不滿的聲音不知道這個檢討報告沈進長你們這邊有沒有看過或聽說過那為什麼要加入民間的聲音這個部分我們想要請您分享看看您的觀點是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5836.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5858.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
因為我們看到民間有出來有一些聲音出來是所以我們會對這一個現在正在了解好正在了解那所以你手上有相關的報告嗎關於這個民間的聲音檢討的聲音有那沒關係我們辦公室有我們後續提供給好我們後續提供給你們分給你們參考但我要說一下為什麼這件事情這麼這麼的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5860.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5877.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
體育署在這個計畫裡面他們說要提升參賽隊伍數量的KPI這個好像是一般行政機關很容易做他們也覺得好像比較好做的事情他們創造了一個好像國內足球隊蓬勃發展的這個狀態我暫且不要說它是假象怎麼說呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5878.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5883.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我們看到另外一個狀況是為了衝這個球隊參賽數量的KPI他們甚至有的學校是用籃球隊、田徑隊來報名參加足球比賽拿這個相關的補助以至於到後面相關的決算遠遠超過預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5893.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5913.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
可是回頭看一個計劃一個政府部門執行了6年的足球計劃他的相關目標、手段、成果都完全對不起來更不要說我剛剛已經跟您分享所有民間自主投入的基層的資源從家長到小孩到教練到很多的企業大家都努力基層自立自強 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5913.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5934.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
可是到最後我們看到這個國家足球六年發展計畫﹐卻有可能成為個別業務組的小金庫﹐他們如何看待手上這些經費﹐還有民間社區俱樂部正在蓬勃發展﹐但是社區俱樂部這件事情﹐卻沒有在相關體育署的眼睛的政策視野發展當中﹐這個部分不知道您有沒有知道相關的亂象 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5936.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5959.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這個整個我們的審計啊以他的成效他跑偏了我們一定會給他意見好那如果也就是說可是如果不在你們的認知當中或是不在他們的政策規劃當中確實就很如同您說的不在你們的審計對象當中所以我們要再次強調目前這個六年足球計畫是執行到112年底我這邊要強烈的拜託審計部在112年度的審計報告當中要持續關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5964.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5968.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
相關足球六年發展計畫或其他體育署相關足球發展計畫? |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5979.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5995.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
另外我們提到我們看到這個審計部裡面還有另外一個我們辦公室一直以來都非常非常關心而且我們不是只有關心我們做了非常多的事情就是關於兒少自殺死亡率這件事情不知道沈記長你有沒有看過類似的新聞或是你知不知道目前在民間在學校這個現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5996.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6003.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
關於兒少自殺率逐年提升?你們的意見說國人自殺標準化死亡率尚未達成預期目標且兒少族群自殺問題漸趨嚴重你們還說自殺通報個案數逐年增加自殺關懷訪視員的案量負荷沉重 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6023.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6046.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
到目前為止自殺防治法沒有規定擬定全國自殺防治綱領報行政院核定實施這個是你們提出的問題對嗎對好這個先要謝謝審計部認真的工作但是我們要說相關的問題提出來都很棒因為對我們來說其實讓孩子們安心長大這個環境真的不是只是學校老師的責任也不是單一家庭的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6047.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6073.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
過往大家都認為小孩健康的成長讓小孩好好的長大成為一個社會上有用的人力彷彿都是個別家庭的責任但是我們都知道現在社會環境的複雜已經不是一個單一家庭或者是在一個學校求學階段就能夠面對這麼多複雜的議題孩子們出了學校拿起手機他們對於數位接觸的熟悉還有我們大人對於青少年文化的陌生這個部分我們辦公室甚至之前我們主動請衛福部來開會主動請教育部來開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6076.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6091.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
甚至跨部會來開會那我們就想如同您剛剛說的面對少子化我們要做研議報告我們辦公室甚至主動找了國科會中研院可不可以啟動相關的研究報告可是我們得到的答案目前都是模擬兩可的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6092.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6112.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
好像沒有人願意積極的承擔或是把這個事情當成是主要的業務範圍但是我必須說這個現象真的越來越嚴重所以這邊我特別提出來要拜託審計部在後續對於相關部會的兒少自殺死因回溯調查可不可以提出相關更具體的建議給予這些行政機關更積極的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6115.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6140.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
這個部分我們會照委員的意思我們了解了整個前面的情況以後也會請教委員我們的意見是不是中衡後續這邊我們辦公室也很樂意在跟審計部保持積極的討論因為如同我剛剛說的我們辦公室自己都已經發動了這麼多的會議討論就是希望可以從公部門的資源來協助解決這個問題因為兒少自殺不是只是孩子沒有了生命 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6141.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6158.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
對於每個家庭對於每個學校老師來說都是一個悲傷的故事所以我們希望這些悲傷的故事不要再發生所以跨部會的事情後續也要拜託審計部積極的緊盯相關的行政單位的行政效率可以嗎可以好謝謝委員我們會努力最後一個我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6160.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6185.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
神器長你有去過這個球場嗎?沒有這個是高雄的男子足球場那這個是我的助理因為我生命中真的從來沒有看過這個足球比賽他第一場帶我去看的是台灣隊對於這個吉爾吉斯隊那我們當天的比賽其實表現成績不是太好可是我在現場我要說我看到球員盡心盡力在這個球場上揮灑可是這個球場有什麼樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6185.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6205.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這是當時前瞻計畫規劃要建6個相關的球場可是到了後來只蓋了這個球場不知道沈記長您知道這個事情嗎對,有所了解好,那為什麼只蓋6個只蓋了一個後續的經費都到哪裡去了你們相關報告裡面你有印象到底提到了些什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6206.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6219.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個部分因為有的進度落後有的規劃不足不淺所以就有檢討我們在整個如果足球對我們東方人來講是一個很好的一個運動我們會來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6222.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6239.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
但是我們所知其實相關的縣市政府或者是相關的部會應該沒有把這個錢拿去規劃這個球場到底發生了什麼事情我覺得審計部這邊要主動的追蹤因為對於大家來說我剛剛已經在前面體育的題目裡我已經提到台灣的足球社區俱樂部蓬勃的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6240.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6259.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
他們已經參考很多國外社區俱樂部的做法所以很多的家長、很多的孩子自己投入時間、自己投入資源他們不打算走學校體育班的系統他們花很多的時間自己練球可是光是要有一個合乎國際比賽規格的場地在台灣就有困難更何況我們告訴我們自己我們要發展成一個體育大國、一個足球大國 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6260.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6277.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這怎麼可能所以我剛剛想要再一次請省機長看這個球場而且說實話我們去到這個球場看到甚至這個上排喔他連燈光的部分金費都不夠我還問我助理說為什麼有那個燈光的架子可是卻沒有燈光在下面就只是先把它架好可是因為錢不夠都沒有辦法再往下做那 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6278.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6293.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
除了這個球場自己本身有問題之外後續其他或是之前規劃蓋球場也都沒有真的蓋出來所以這部分真的要拜託審計部積極的去糾正去盯緊到底發生了什麼事情或者是拿來本來說好要拿去蓋球場的錢到底到哪裡去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6294.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6310.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個球場我們會派人到整個屬地了解以後給委員提出也不是只有這個球場還有我剛剛說本來要再六個嘛那幾個啊這個經費啊他的這怎麼使用我們也會整個了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6310.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6339.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
好 這個部分也就是說看起來在你們的報告裡面是沒有提到這個部分所以要拜託審計部積極的去緊盯這些事情所以簡單來說我今天提的關於少子化的部分還有兒少自殺需要你們跨部會還有體育署的相關足球發展業務還有還有剛剛我講的這個足球場前瞻計畫足球場也就是說所有這些預算它到最後都是落在服務台灣未來的主人翁就是所有的兒少身上當我們標榜我們要在意兒少的福利我們要在意兒少的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6339.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6353.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
也要拜除行政機關他們有相關的規劃跟政策執行之外也要拜託審計部這邊要積極緊盯相關的計劃執行好謝謝委員我們會這個部分會照委員的意思來努力好謝謝以上謝謝陳記長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝陳委員培餘的質詢也謝謝陳審議長的備詢接下來我們請登記第5號林委員思明詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6375.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6395.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
好 謝謝院長 我們請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長沈記長好 那沈記長我就直接進入主題我想我們在前瞻的第三期中編列將近79億的綠能建設預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6398.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6409.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我們要達到的目標包含電網提升：能源轉型：還有綠能技術建設開發等而這些目標包含有台電的經營效能 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6410.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6431.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那剛好這個都是本席過去一再質疑我們台電年年虧損與政府能源政策適當的原因我們現在我想我們看到電價在漲今年我們還繼續要補助台電1000億加上我們經濟部王美花部長也證實我們再生能源的發電佔比 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6433.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6457.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
打20%的這個政策目標在2025年顯然沒有辦法達成現在預估要在2026年的10月才能夠達成那因此我們很明顯的可以看出來前瞻計畫的綠能建設花費到現在我們還是看不到有這個顯著的一個效益那對於台電 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6458.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6481.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
政府也先前連續兩年透過預算先後編列了補助台電共2500億而其實這2500億我認為也是一種變相的特別預算更不用說我們在一後的特別預算中我們也編列了500億來補助台電所以本席要請問我們審計長第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6486.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6501.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
預算法第83條關於特別預算編列的規定﹐對於用這些變相的特別預算去補助台電﹐這樣是合理的嗎?這樣的持續補助﹐台電的虧損﹐卻還是繼續擴大。審計長您認為﹐這樣的變相補助﹐是否應該要停止?請審計長先回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6513.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6535.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我是希望臺電要強化經營體質加強開源節流因為臺電的虧損原因多端原因有很多第一個設電的電價都低於成本第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6535.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6535.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
對於台電連年虧損 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6563.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6587.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
到底如何能夠什麼時候才能夠停止如果能源政策不加以修正的話是不是我們每年還是看到台電的赤字年年還是虧損都要靠我們用編列相關的預算來去做一個補助所以看到這樣的情況站在審計部的立場你要如何的來做對台電做出建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6589.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6599.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這個因為剛剛講嘛如果你的售價低於成本他要賺錢就很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6601.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6620.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那為什麼售價會低於成本呢當然是原因很多所以這個綠能政策的燃料採購策略是怎麼樣你的怎麼樣管理怎麼樣多很多也有剛剛講的綠能的這方面但是綠能啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6621.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6649.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
是一個現在是一個欺世因為現在是要往這方面檢探這邊走這個氣候變遷很厲害所以這個這個綠能是也是我們現在大家一起全世界各國在努力的目標那當然我們就講到說因為這個是造成台電在預算的整個編列上我們看到用很多特別預算連連的在補助他到底什麼時候能夠停止我想在審計部的一個立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6650.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6672.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
您要做出中肯的一個建議做出一個建言我們這個對台電這個部分我們會加強是另外我想剛才好多位委員都一直提到這個預算法83條的規定當然這一次我們也很多委員來提案三俗第四款不定期或數年一次重大事故這樣的一個條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6673.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6700.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那希望我們特別預算的未來的一個這個編列呢要盡量避免有所謂的重大正式這樣的一個情形來作為預算特別預算編列的一個項目那所以我想請教沈記長您贊不贊成說這個預算法83條的第4款所規定的不定期或數年一次的重大正式這個條款來把它刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6701.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6707.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我剛剛非常同意委員盡量避免所以要備用這一款盡量順中 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6708.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6734.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
盡量慎重要做好很多的計畫評估要樂俗完了以後要樂俗好好的出現盡量避免我們都知道但是常常就是沒有辦法避免我們看到這幾年來政府常常利用這一款來編列所謂的這個預算特別預算所以我才會問你委員才會這個想說這一條好像是常常作為政府舉債的一個非常重要的一個依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6735.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6757.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那認為說這個依據因為你講重大正式這個重大正式這四個字啊是一個很不確定的法律概念到底什麼情形之下符合叫做重大正式我想這個部分就會有很大的一個讓我們的執政的政府他有一個空間去這個用這一款來編列特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6758.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6782.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
所以您贊不贊成這一款應該予以刪除讓政府的財政紀律能夠走向正常化常態化因為要用這一款大部分都會訂特別條例訂了特別條例都會送到大院來審議所以大院這一個是不是重大大院可以來評估來看所以這一條是 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6785.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6810.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
主要在組織方面可能要注意在編列組織方面要注意現在我是問你的意見因為我們本院已經有好多委員建議要刪除那您的看法其實我想我一直強調這是一個很不確定的法律概念您剛才有提到要用這一款來編列特別預算要很省慎要符合這個預算的科目的項目所謂的重大建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6811.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6826.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
但是在法律上這是一個很不確定的法律概念所以我才會就教你您贊不贊成把它刪除呢我們從90年到現在編了40個特別預算裡面用到這一款的 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6827.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6850.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
有差不多將近一半將近一半用到這一款所以啊用這一款的機會很多但是我還是比較偏向順序因為這都是對國家的一個多了一個編例算的一個方式所以啊但是你認為常用這一款來做這個編列特別預算是破壞我們的財政紀律 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6856.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6877.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
你主要產生主要我們的計畫產生的效益大於我們的預算規模所以我們講說您剛才也提到是從這個過去有40幾次有編列特別預算但是你有沒有去審計過說這40幾件每一件都是這個符合這個條款的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6878.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6904.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
預算的一個編列?你有沒有做出審計?因為這個部分因為我們的審計是站在後端是依照立法院通過的預算還有他的做的決議來做審計你來做最後的一個建議嘛對提出建議嘛對我們會對他執行的效能提出建議你會提出建議嗎那你認為這四十幾件都符合他的一個效益嗎執行的效益嗎效能我們都會追 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6905.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6934.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我們到現在還在前瞻的構想效能我們都在追好我想這個議題你也不敢去很正面的答覆我但是我想未來我們在立法院好多位立委都已經提出刪除的一個建議那我想為了讓我們的財政據率能夠這個更好更常態化不要動輒用這一條款來編列特別預算破壞我們的財政據率那我還是認為沈議長您還是要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6935.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6945.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
過去的這個一用這個項目來編列特別預算的我希望您能做一個這個中肯的一個建議好不好OK好第二個問題再請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6947.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6969.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
關於111年的總決算審核部分﹐審計部就數位身分證的緩乏指出﹐因為契約暫停執行﹐而需支付逾1.3億元給中央印製廠﹐但根據內政部長林佑昌﹐他在上個月表示﹐經過調解後﹐還需另外支付給廠商的調解金額﹐壓在2億8千萬上下﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6972.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6997.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
林部長甚至還說兩億多元已經是最好的結果數位身份證從執行面也好或者是從立法面也好從頭到尾就是政府沒有做完善的評估與準備導致我們民眾還沒有新式的證件可以拿到之前就必須掏腰包來幫助政府善後可以說是全世界最貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6999.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7008.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
而且還是拿不到的身份證所以本席請問沈記長數維身份證的政策失敗並且要支付這麼高額的賠償金這筆賬是要誰來買單 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7013.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7037.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這個部分我們有提出審核意見因為他為損失就和委員所提的因為你在開始的時候沒有審慎評估計畫的可行性所以後來採購發生了一些問題因為你停了這會有違約我們也增加了一些經費因為時間的關係那您告訴我您的審核意見最後是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7041.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7056.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我們送去監察院就移送監察院來何處嗎對是不是好那另外我們覺得更離譜的是我們已經採購的機器林佑昌部長說可能因為沒有辦法密集使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7057.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7079.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
但仍持續編列6357萬元的預算：以支付印製廠設備暫停執行的必要費用。請問省紀部是否有去督核這樣的費用花費是否合當：以及這些機器後續到底要如何處理：就繼續編列這些機器的維護費用：但是卻擺著不用。 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7080.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7087.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
省紀部你是否有去查核﹐追究相關責任﹐並再提出新的審核報告? |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7088.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7112.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個部分我們也有提出來也有意見他你這個要一直維護到底最後的使用會用到嗎?因為他的維護一年也花掉不少錢所以這個又添357萬民脂民膏一年要花這麼多錢我們就叫他好好的評估一下因為要 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7112.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7139.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
做一個決策要想到說這個如果以後不用了或者是以後用不到了或者效能變了這些都要考量所以你要不要再維持它的可運轉的狀態呢我們就提出相關的審核意見給內政部那有沒有追究相關的責任這個部分因為已經提供到監察院因為這個監察院不會做所以這個部分也是有提請監察院做何處 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7142.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7166.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
監察院正在了解之中正在了解調查所以我再請問這個審議長就是我們交通部路政及道政司及道安司在上個月有公布112年我們這個交通死亡人數為3023人那上個月這次的審核報告提到的僅比我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7168.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7192.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
一百一十年的三千零八十五人減少大概六十二個人但是我們看到交通事故總計有四十萬兩千九百二十六件則是較前年增加了兩萬七千零八十二件那麼整體的事故還有傷亡人數受傷人數皆不減反增所以我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7196.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7197.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
請問這個我們沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7199.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7228.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
政府已經花大錢在前瞻計畫上希望能夠提高交通安全但我們又看不到交通部這種有對於我們所謂的提升道路品質計畫的目標並沒有做到測他所希望達到的年降5%交通死亡人數這樣的一個標準我們在這次的審計報告中也提到全國市區道路仍有超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7229.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7255.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
三分之一的人行道近寬是不足最低最低的標準那我們這次在審計報告第12頁也提到全國有超過三分之一的市區道路尚未有電纜地下化像我們新竹竹北高鐵特區這些新興區域就是還有很多道路沒有完成電纜地下化所以請問審計部是否也有將這些新興區域的道路改善列為考核的範圍之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7257.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7285.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這個部分我們會繼續追蹤考核我們現在也在做整個道安的專案調查我們會列到112年度的審核報告現在目前正在做我想這個對於我們電纜地下化這一個部分還有我們人行道的寬度不足這部分我們還是希望省紀部要持續的考核我們各個地方政府也要責成交通部 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7286.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7298.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我們為了改善我們的交通這幾個部分一定要進謝謝林委員施明的詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第6號郭委員國文詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7326.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7330.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
主席有請陳惠敏我們審計長再請陳審計長備選各位好審計長好審計長根據你這一個年度的這個決算報告當中的一些審計內容以及審計意見那個人對審計意見當中還有一些意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7349.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7372.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
也就是說你在分析上的問題確實是有些點到但是意見上仍有不足之處有些問題想要就教於您那特別是本席一直持續長期來一直關心的這個社會住宅問題當中您有特別提到那以社會住宅來說的話我們蔡總統的任內的一個努力到目前為止已經有127,924戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7376.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7403.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
但是如果即便12萬戶這邊全部完工的話他預計是在整個住宅市場當中佔有1.5%那後續的部分我們的總統當選賴清德先生他也基本上提出一個叫高達25萬戶那如果累計25萬戶完成的話大概可以預計超過3%但是還有其他的部分還有包租代管的部分25萬戶的情況底下累計目標應該可以達到6% |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7405.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7429.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
這個情況已經超過5%為什麼要強調這個部分呢這是一個政策的目標而這個政策目標明顯是呼籲當年一些民間團體的訴求希望在住宅正義的部分有社會住宅相關的供給數能夠超過5%但是這5%的這個目標即便定了之後後面是執行的狀況但是執行的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7430.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7436.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
如何?當省紀部呢就扮演一個非常重要的一個角色那我舉一個為什麼社會住宅現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7437.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7462.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
之所以會如此的一個重要性大家之所以會如此關注的一個很重要的一個原因是一來感覺上呢速度沒有我們想像中的期待的那麼快也就是目前為止實際的完工數不到3萬但是加上規劃中當然雖有12萬多但是為什麼有這種急迫感呢是因為外在環境的一些變化外在環境的變化也就是說我們現在的房租的物價指數節節攀升創下歷史新高 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7465.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7494.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
而且我們房價的所得比也是節節攀升也是創價力求升高一個是105.37一個是到了9.61倍再加上房貸的負擔率也是攀升超過4成但是相對而言我們社會住宅的這個中遷率大約是在15%在20%之間那中遷率的這個偏低也就代表什麼就供不應求供不應求 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7495.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7516.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那這種供不應求的情況底下你們所做的報告內容當中有進行社會住宅現金收支的推估明顯看得出來內政部跟審計部有相當程度的落差從100年到172年推估的時間算非常之長落差的幅度你們認為是-2966億 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7521.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7547.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
而內政部門認為會有剩餘309億兩個部會之間相差之多超過3000億以上但是可是呢省基部在租租東興的規劃計畫當中呢你們認為高估了這個租金的收入可是問題是社會住宅他考慮到的除了營建成本跟這一個新建成本之外他本身有一定的程度的政策目標的存在對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7548.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7569 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那政策目標不在如果一直只是考慮到所謂自償率的部分的話你又點出一個部分說要內政部研擬所謂的合理的可負擔的租金的分級收費原則看起來齁又是點到為止那就是說積極面的部分呢從社會主題面向其實資金是一個很大的一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7570.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7587.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
在昨天的財政委員會當中呢那個內政部在我們的質詢當中他提出了所謂要創再提供創造一個一兆元以上的綠色債券的這個可能性來解決他的這個資金上的需求我不要審計長你的看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7589.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7616.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
如果社會住宅是社會上民眾所需要的話我們要想盡辦法來執行那我們的租金收租的這個顧我們也只是提醒要他稍微注意一下那至於怎麼收或者用什麼方法因為要幫民眾能夠有社會住宅口住總體來說是資金的部分財務面向的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7617.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7644.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那財務面向的部分你們也點出所謂的營運資金不足嘛那營運資金不足你就點到這邊而已就沒有其他的建議也就是說其實就一個社會住宅這個興建的部分資金當然是一個面向資金的面向它可以透過舉債增加預算或者其他的方式在你的審計部的這個審計意見當中都複製確如啊沒有看見嘛就是說第一個是不是舉債的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7645.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7671.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
第二個你也是省計相關的部會你也知道不同的部會當中有不同的問題的存在依照目前為止台灣其實是不缺資金民間的資金非常之多甚至有些資金會過剩跑到海外去投資特別是受險基金的部分是否有效性的可以引導受險基金走入這個社會住宅的市場當中這個都是可能性啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7672.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7697.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我就不曉得為什麼審計長你這個部分都沒有去注意到也沒有提到這個審計意見更何況是不是有創造一個新的可能性也就是諸多東西的這67億預算當中已經是最高的情況底下與其你把它當作預算是不是把它當作利息的預算來做支應也就是把它換成3%你就可以舉債到2000多億就可以迎刃化解它的資金面的財務問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7698.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7719.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
市長你的看法怎麼樣這個部分委員的意見我們尊重但是我們沒有做這一部分我們會回去做方面的評估對本席就是希望你在審計意見當中更加充實除了這個資金的面向之外還有一個面向還有一個面向是時間成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7720.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7737.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
什麼時間成本呢就實務當中你們要去深刻的去理解為什麼社會住宅會推出這麼慢的原因有一個關鍵的因素就是土地取得土地取得為什麼會造成這麼大的困難他一來就是呢剩餘土地呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7738.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7759.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
適合的土地空間不多二來還有使用分區的問題一旦使用分區出現問題的時候你還要走用地變更又要一段時間所以他時間當然會拖長啊所以站在審計單位你應該要求其他單位休假擁有土地持有單位較多的地方的單位在哪裡依賴嘛國有財產署嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7760.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7775.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
二來嘛,就是台台嘛三來嘛,就是軍方嘛大概是這三個單位當中有沒有可能釋出土地空間來配合國家的總體的一個社會住宅的政策這就是你的職責所待啊,沈議長因為我們發現啊他有國有地裡面還有107處啊,閒住在那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7780.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7801.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
你都知道有107處的閒置空間在那邊也就是如同國土財產署他現在管理的這些官設、廳設、閒置不用的有沒有可能作為活化或者來作為社會住宅的一個土地空間有沒有可能這個沒有去思考嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7803.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7826.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
委員這個意見很好,我們會來提供給...可以納入你的審計意見當中吧好另外一個部分呢,也就是說呢,你的土地取得,你興建社會住宅的部分你也可以思考多元化的可能啊什麼是多元化的可能?現在國有財產署500坪以上不能賣嘛,對不對?對不對?對那它可以用的方式是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7827.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7852.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
就設定地上權嘛對不對那有沒有可能創造地上權屋的一種方式也是提供社會住宅一種可能性啊方法之一啊對不對或者還有包括是什麼就是說設定這種地上權的方式之外以前地方政府也曾經有成功的BOT的案例而且速度非常之快不到三年就已經興建完繩 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7854.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7881.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那為什麼在你的審計審計報告當中都沒有看到這種政策建議政策建議就是你審計部的責任嘛對不對委員都訴考很多人我們會照委員的來評估以後提出我們的什麼意見對這些具體的內容我一五一十告訴你就資金的面向財務的面向以及呢這個土地的因素還有時間的成本的考慮當中來具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7883.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7911.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
你出來提出一個可以操作的一個建議方式來要求相關部會來完成這一個政策目標我剛剛為什麼一開始就給你提政策目標就是5%以上是呼應民間的一個期待如果就常態性的租屋者的需求在台灣是有超過80萬以上常態性的需求當中為什麼需要因為我們社會住宅不但是重簽率低 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7912.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7921.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
而且呢你入住的時間還非常有限你如果不是弱勢者的話你挺多住3年再加3年也就挺多6年而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7922.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7950.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
就國外的例子當中呢是可以達到租者有其屋的一個政策目標欸對不對如果你社會住宅要推到一個真正一個符合政策目標的話還不在於說供給量的5%或6%而已而是長期的可以供給這些相對弱勢而無法達到居住正義的這一群租屋者的需求才是真正的政策目標我覺得沈議長你應該在內心當中要有一種政策目標啦委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7953.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7973.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
對社會住宅的研究非常深入我們會照委員的意見來評估麻煩盡可能採用這些建議多給這些相關部會一點壓力進行日後持續性的一個成績好不好後面的部分你特別還有提到一個問題也就是關於這個企業這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7977.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7988.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
盈餘的部分占的GDP比例您在110年度決算的審計報告中正對行政院重要的審核意見當中對受僱者的占有GDP的比例當中創10年的新低嗎?對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7990.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7999.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
此內心地當中我們所佔的比例是36.53% 43.03%但是企業盈餘的佔比卻逐漸攀升也就是說你看到的這些相關的數字當中受僱者的報酬佔GDP的比例是從45.77一直滑落到43.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8014.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8021.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
然後另外一個部分呢企業的盈餘的占GDP比是31.82一直逐漸攀升到36.53這個告訴我們什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8024.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8051.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
就是貧富差距的根本原因最近兩則新聞你看台灣億萬富豪的部分佔11萬人持有財產32萬兆累積的億萬財富有69%都是55歲的當然這55歲不包括本人但是另外一個部分是30歲以下的勞工朋友23%沒有存款是零存儲 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8052.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8079.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
有46%的青年人認為負債已經造成他沉重的經濟壓力?當你解釋這一個圖表的時候那我就把你的圖表做一個衍生我做一個國家主要國家的比較你看喔收估者人數的這個報酬率的這個GDP比我們剛剛看到是43點起數字上尾數有些差異沒有什麼關係但是日本是占多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8080.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8100.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
日本的占過一半52.6%美國也是52.2%南韓52.2%也就三個國家都是超過一半都是52%以上唯獨台灣是在43%好你去看盈餘喔盈餘GDP我們剛好相反反正我是最高我們最高的部分台灣是34.4%美國是24.6%南韓是22%日本是13.1% |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8106.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8128.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
對不對那你看到這種結構性的因素當中以前我們也花了很多時間在做一些努力你做這些統計報告當中你就可以看得出來企業越來越賺錢但是整個經濟的成果並沒有達到所謂經濟學的下盛的效果沒有下盛的效果當中貧富差距就越來越大 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8130.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8146.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
主席長,你難道只有做這些統計報告而已,你沒有任何一個具體的一個政策建議,要求其他相關部會來做一些改善嗎?謝謝委員,這個部分齁,所得不驚,貧富不驚,這個我們在開始做專案調查,也在努力除夕要多年的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8147.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8170.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
專案調查之後有沒有什麼專案的建議或政策或要求今年會提出來今年什麼時候今年我再結算報告為什麼我問你的時候你才會提出來這個現象已經持續很久了本來就有內陸的這個專案調查了你今年你說你再重複一次今年幾月的時候會提出來因為我我固定七月底以前要送审的報告七月底是全部啦地方的都會出來嘛對不對你的七月底會有具體的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8171.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8200.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
可操作的喔有效的喔可以改善的喔我會好好看喔謝謝委員那我再跟你講最後一分鐘的時間齁其實我們不是完全沒有努力蔡政府過去八年來都有進行基本工資的調整但是基本工資的調整它的整個主體推高的這一個層面相對是比較屬於低薪階級的部分的這一個薪資結構有所部分的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8201.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8229.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
但是最關鍵的部分是在中階的部分也就是說所得勞動所得在中階的部分幾乎影響就相對比較少過往我們也提過所謂的中小企業加薪這個抵稅但實質上當初的法令居然用一個很高的失業率做一個標準根本沒有辦法達成圖有條文而且我們也將近把整個企業營運進行課稅也做過這樣的努力但是實際上 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8231.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8246.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
也是好到股東沒有好到勞工啊?對啊也就是我們制度上做了這些努力沒有達到實質的效果所以請沈記長好好思考一下這個報告好好寫啦好 謝謝謝謝郭委員國文的詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢報告委員會現在我們休息十分鐘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8872.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8874.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
包委員會現在繼續開會接下來我們請登記第7號徐委員與珍詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8898.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8902.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
主席您好請沈記長麻煩再請沈記長備詢委員好沈記長您好首先謝謝沈記長帶領審計部這些年來對於中央政府的一些不當的政策提出審核跟這個稽查那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8922.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8951.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
也讓大家了解到現在百姓所受到的痛苦其實也跟中央執政這些年來一些錯誤的這個政策有關那我想我想在這邊也期望我們省紀長能夠繼續帶領我們的省紀部可以展現我們這個中華文化這個玉石待復的這個風骨寬鎮剛擠然後繼續的帶領我們的這個省紀部展現氣節不知道省紀長願不願意我們來努力是謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8952.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8979.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
好首先我們來看一下這個民生的議題就是雞蛋的價格貴部在111年度的中央政府的總決算附屬單位的決算及中計表的審核報告非營業部分的報告指出到111年的12月已經達到了121,200箱然而因為總蛋總機的進口時程延遲無法及時更新產蛋機群及淘汰後未能及時的補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8980.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9007.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
及氣候疫情等因素的影響導致產量的急速下滑接著又寫道為穩定產銷及因應部分通路的雞蛋短缺辦理緊急調度加工原料但專案進口國外雞蛋及雞蛋生產獎勵等措施其增加雞蛋的供應量以穩定產銷的秩序跟價格然而雞蛋短缺的問題到112年3月以延續一年多仍未有效的解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9008.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9035.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
且散裝雞蛋的零售價格節節攀升：置身民怨那我們也從右邊的這個這個養雞協會的雞蛋產地的交易行情可以看得出來雞蛋價格從110年的10月開始攀升到現在都還沒有回穩3月底又要漲3塊請問沈記長貴部的報告指出含傾農委會也就是現在的農業部應該要持續精進蛋雞產業的這個生產的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9038.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9057.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
數據、調查技術跟即時掌握：包括總機、中機、蛋機：跟雞蛋的產量的流量的資訊：讓政府跟蛋農：可以及早掌握：雞蛋的供應量：跟價格波動的趨勢：適時的調整策略與穩定：產銷秩序及價格：請問農業部接到貴部的含文後：有改進嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9059.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9067.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
他有來函說他會來改進這方面的產銷的問題但是我們最近在追蹤整個追蹤的情形我們還會在112年度的損和報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9078.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9107.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
請省紀長在這個部分一定要幫我們的民眾把關那這次的省紀部的審核報告在112年7月底公佈主要是談111年的審核你們這份111年的審核報告鐵口直斷雞蛋的產銷秩序會有問題結果在112年8月就爆發了有50萬的基本額的超私、一人公司就可以拿到政府1.75億補助的這個大量進口 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9107.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9134.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
國外雞蛋然後搞得全台的雞蛋價格大亂雞蛋的產地標示不清雞蛋的有效期限也出現問題百姓也不曉得該不該吃蛋甚至也吃不起蛋喔而我們辛苦飼養雞蛋的這個蛋農也受到大家的誤會欲哭無淚所以審計部在111年的時候審計報告就提出雞蛋的問題但是在農業部在112年還是我行我素 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9135.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9154.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
沒有改進所以導致我們去年想吃雞蛋的時候吃不到蛋等可以吃得到雞蛋的時候又擔心都是過期的雞蛋用納稅人的錢進口了那麼多的外國雞蛋然後現在又要銷毀五千七百七十三萬顆的雞蛋暴舔天物請問審計長你對於這種無視審計報告對不起百姓的部會審計部會如何處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9162.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9171.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我們還是會追蹤因為他當時我們說你那個統計數據你使用的統計數據有的都夠實了你要來做產銷調節可能那個我們有這樣的一個提出還有剛剛委員講的這個部分因為農委會會痛定思痛會好好的把 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9186.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9188.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這個案子我們已經送了 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9203.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9219.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
好謝謝謝謝你講那接下來我再請教一下沈記長有關109年度的中央政府的總決算審核報告各公務機關的重要審核意見當中對於農委會辦理政策宣導為依預算法第62條之一編列專項經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9222.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9247.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
增列應付保留數兩千六百四十萬餘元去年有委員詢問時沈記長是說尚未繳回請問現在目前這筆經費的處理狀況這個部分我們把它從實現室把它撿到保留室目前還是還在掛在保留室因為當時他沒有符合因為大院有一個決議你要有專項經費他是沒有專項經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9250.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9254.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
對於農業部這樣一直不理審計部的意見而且對於這種的話審計部有什麼方式可以來處理因為是從109年到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9265.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9294.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以一個案子是這樣我們要希望他就照大院的有專項經費出來的時候我們就會慢慢慢慢還有整個政令先導的通通進到整個正常的大院規定的體系行政院的規定的相關的體系裡面我們才會來做一個整個後面的一個處理好所以現在農業部還沒繳回嘛所以審計部對於這樣不理不睬的態度啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9294.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9311.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
審計部會怎麼做我們還是會逐步要他還是逐步要去面對這個問題所以他現在農業部已經現在正應先導的部分他現在我們查核的結果都已經按規定都有按規定在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9312.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9325.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
但是這比兩千六百四十萬目前還沒嘛所以請省級長要繼續追查不可以讓這樣子的一個不符合國家規定的不符合你們省級規定的相關的形式一再的發生請省級長好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9327.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9345.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那接下來也要請教的就是有關這個我們在111年度的時候就是政府有鑒於資訊科技日益普遍要推動智慧政府的這個行動方案那所以這個國發會在107年12月27號在行政院提報了智慧政府的發展藍圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9346.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9367.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
並且經行政院院會決議數位身份證是實現智慧政府的基礎架構請內政部妥善規劃全面換發相關的工作也在109年啟動全面換發的作業那內政部也在108年1月31號提報數位身份證新一代國民身份證的換發計劃經行政院在108年6月6號原則同意辦理計劃其成為108年到112年 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9376.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9384.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
總經費總共是48億9285萬元。審計部的報告指出新一代的國民身份證換發計劃行政院已於110年1月21日院會決定計劃暫緩實行。 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9391.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9414.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
內政部迄今未依中長城個案計劃編審要點第11點的規定修正或終止計劃請問沈經長內政部是不是已經依照你們編審要點的第11條的規定修正或終止計劃了目前內政部因為要在等整個那個購租法裡面的購租委員會成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9415.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9443.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
他們會整個在通盤評估這個計畫是繼續走還是有所變更所以這個大概因為這受到資安問題所以還蠻複雜這個從107年就決定要做的事情為什麼到現在還針對個資的部分資安現在才在辦理這樣子的一個事情我們的審計意見裡面有提出因為這個你要做這個因為限度很大的個資問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9444.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9469.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以他們在當時的決定應該是沒有損失來評估這個計劃的可行性所以造成了這樣的後面的這樣衍生了這些問題所以我們這個部分我們有送檢查案對所以沈記長也提到就是當時因為資安的問題才是煥發這個我們數位身份證最重要的問題可是從107年到現在都沒有提到所以迫使這個計劃暫時的這個終止 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9471.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9487.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
或者是修正嗎但是呢目前為止他也還沒有要修正或中正的這個計畫修正或中止的一個計畫所以剛剛農業部也是對於審計部的這個回應好像有點置之不理 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9487.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9515.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那現在內政部也是這樣也不是很積極那請問沈記長對於這樣的狀況我們可以有何作為農業部的部分因為他已經我們看到他的整個政令先導都按照行政院的規定來做了所以這個部分農業部已經那這個因為輸入輸入身證簽售的租安面還有個私錢個人的私錢那個面向很大那個受惠 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9516.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9541.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
看法各有不同所以我們目前還是尊重內政部但是他的維持那個機器運轉一年要花掉五、六千億這個我們叫他要好好的做一個評估針對這個部分我等一下也會請教這個沈記長這個問題但是我現在要先來請教沈記長針對數位身份證的這個總共目前為止雖然開始現在說是要暫緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9542.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9556.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
但是總共花了多少的經費有各方的說法不一啦那請問沈記長有沒有實際的數字這個部分我們有了解過因為他整個計劃整個組成的結果他當時編了抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9561.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9573.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
他當時編了整個我來跟這個沈記長報告一下這一次你可以看一下我的Power Point就是我們針對112年的決算報告來看內政部的這個新式換發身份證的執行計畫到109到112年已經累積編列預算數為8億6504萬8千元截至112年底累積執行數是7億1223萬7千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9588.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9615.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
另外可以查到的是一百零九年中央印製廠編列了四億一千八百零四萬五千元兩者合計總共是十一萬三千零二十八元那今年的一月初公共工程委員會跟我們的這個得標廠商呢達成仲裁的協議同意以二點八億元來和解若再加上這筆二點八億的話總共會是十四億一千零二十八萬兩千元請問這個數字您覺得正確嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9618.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9628.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
這個部分大概和我們的數字相當唯一的中央醫術廠那邊他是機器他會貪到相對之分要錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9628.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9656.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我跟這個沈機長來講就是他現在我也有問過中央印製廠他們說內政部已經編列了兩年攤提的費用給他們一年大概是四千萬兩年編列了八千萬扣掉這八千萬也還是支出了十三億三千萬元所以剛剛還有提到剛剛沈機長有提到的這個都已經要暫停執行的這個計畫了我們每年卻要編六千三百七十五萬九千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9657.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9682.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
所以針對這個部分他是說有4000萬是攤提計劃2300多萬是我們的營運費必要的費用可是我們現在已經跟這個數位身份證的得標廠商解約了未來就算再重新招標也不見得是同一個廠商得標那以這樣的狀況硬製機器也可能必須要重買所以我們現在每年花費數千萬元去維護保養維運這個器器沈議長認為合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9687.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9701.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
委員都看我和我們一樣我們現在請那個內政部啊做這一點啊要做一個正確的那個節奏評估好請省議長一定要嚴格的監督內政部針對這個部分不可以再浪費我們這個納稅人的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9704.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9730.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
這個辛苦的血汗錢因為事實上現在的經濟非常的不好那結果我們居然為了這個事情還沒做就已經花了13億3千萬元了未來每年還要編6千3百7十五萬元真的是非常的浪費公帑那接下來呢針對這個部分本席還要請教一下省議長有關電費的問題就是按照省紀部111年度的中央政府的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9732.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9750.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
總決算跟附屬單位的決算跟中繼表的報告第107頁顯示111年度的國際的燃料價格受惡物戰爭的影響導致我們的價格飆升那台灣這個台電的燃料成本大幅的增加那每度電的虧損達到1.17元 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9753.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9768.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
也讓我們一百一十一年度的營運發生成本本期競損兩千兩百六十五億兩千七百五十九萬元沈警長是否認為台電虧損這麼多主要的原因是因為國際燃料價格飆升請問沈警長 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9770.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9796.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這個台電在因為他的主要在火力發電火力包燃煤燃氣他的現在的占比還是八成以上所以主要國際的燃油價格往上走這對台電來講是負擔相當大所以您認為也是國際燃料價格的這個他的因素很多元包括了其中一項主要的因素嗎但是他會占大宗 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9797.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9809.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
好,可是我們現在看喔雖然國際的這個以112年來說國際的燃料價格已經下降很多喔從每度電的成本由110年度的2.6042元上升到112年度的 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9839.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9842.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
謝謝謝謝許委員宇甄的詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第8號范雲委員詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9855.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9859.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
主席好有請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長備詢沈記長好我想沈記部在決算的審核上相當用心有看你們的報告就市政合規還有效能的部分那我想你們扮演很重要的那個角色那今天就是我有兩點 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9885.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9905.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
建議希望審計部能夠納入考量讓我們的決算審核方向未來更完整找出我們的政策還有實行執行的過程中可能的漏洞希望審計長能夠接納首先我想先問一下審計長有沒有聽過性別主流化 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9906.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9921.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
可以簡單講一下什麼是性別主流化嗎可以簡單講一下什麼是性別主流化性別主流化就是大家性別平等吧是性別平等而已嗎那為什麼要一個新名詞性別主流化 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9922.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9948.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這個就沒有我也那麼專業了好那這個就拜託沈記長要能夠了解因為他是聯合國的重要方向也是我們政府的政策方向他是1997年聯合國經濟及社會理事會定義就是要求政府來做什麼評估所有的計畫的行動包含立法政策方案對男女雙方不同的含義影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9949.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9978.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那就是要讓男女雙方受益均等就是政府有職責要落實性別平等所以主流化就是這個性別的議題在所有的政策中都應該是主流那因為政府扮演重要的角色那預算呢就是政府裡面重要的執行那給您看我們行政院性別平等處也有手冊教大家怎麼做因為內容蠻多的我就 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9980.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9990.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
要能發展政策矯正不平等導致不平等的機制是所有政府部門都應該運用的策略施政團隊早在陳水扁擔任總統時就開始推動了 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9995.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9995.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10017.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10039.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以統計是基本的如果你都看不出這個政策對性別的差異那你剛看到年齡、成相、身心的話其實是沒辦法做一個有效的政策工具就是性別分析就是你的政策比如說前瞻對不同性別的影響你是做不出來了所以呢 審計部的決算 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10040.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10057.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
就應該要來審核這是我們行政院自己的方案有沒有落實那可不可以請問那個沈記長您覺得您目前你們生產的報告有沒有落實這個性別主流化呢如果從0分到100分您自己打幾分 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10059.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10076.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們是其實這樣剛剛聽了委員的這個性別主流話我更加深入以前我都請我在我審計部現在請李安妮那個那個周清怡他們幫忙這方面但是在審核的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10077.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10105.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我們是有去注意關注到但是沒有說向委員要這樣落實到一個題目出來那0到100分您給現在的報告內容差不多60分60分喔好啦我不知道您這是好還是不好以我來看是還沒到60分不過當然就是說也許就是我們的標準不一樣那我有三個建議第一個就是他有三大問題第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10106.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10120.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
行政院跟所屬部會其實有編列性別預算可是呢你們的決算報告裡面行政院決算報告裡面都沒有把這個決審的審核機制裡面都沒有納進去所以就是當時有編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10121.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10147.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
性別預算可是沒有相關的決算報告那你們也沒有去說審核這個部分這是第一個問題到底他性別預算做的怎麼樣第二個中央政府的決算還有你們的決算審核裡面完全沒有性別統計那我剛講的性別主流化聯合國的六大工具裡面性別統計是最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10147.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10162.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
如果統計都沒有的話我們就看不出來我們的政策執行的影響力我舉個例子給您看我這邊是衛福部的兒少自殺自殺死亡人口我們都知道自殺的根據統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10163.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10178.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
男性的自殺率高於女性可見自殺率有性別差異可是審核意見通篇都沒有這裡面你們有針對兒少群的自殺跟心理健康的議題有看到衛福部的審核 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10178.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10200.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
他完全沒有提出來那我們這樣子看不到性別的差異明明就知道自殺率是有性別差異的男性也許是因為壓力大於各方面自殺率比較高那所以我們都看不到性別差異自然就沒辦法看到這個決算整個政策的執行做得好不好那這是一個例子為什麼性別統計很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10201.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10223.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那你們的第三個問題是你們的決算審核的報告以我來看您剛講的李安妮的確是專家希望可以多請教她的確缺乏性別主流化的觀點你們很多的決算審查意見都非常好可是我舉個例子為什麼你們的報告沒有性別主流化觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10224.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10226.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
育齡國人育五成未婚﹐有待強化對未婚族群之關注政策﹐鼓勵適齡結婚 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10244.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10259.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
然後呢這是你們的方向我想少子化是全球普遍的議題那個主計長沈議長應該知道嘛那就是說人家解決的少子化的國家最好的是哪些您知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10262.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10281.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
不知道哪些國家解決了少子化的問題本來日本是很低啦後來他有一段時間他有拉升上來韓國也是在建築很低迷現在都在解決但是日本也有提出樹林的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10282.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10306.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
如果我們只看日本跟韓國我們就是在一群低生育率的國家裡面相互學習目前能夠解決生育率的議題其實最好的是北歐國家因為他們找出正確的解方我剛剛還跟劉玉秀教授一起開記者會除了公托要普及之外我們的育嬰價要大改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10307.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10330.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
做到就是婚育的平衡那這是國際的共同解方那如果我們沒有看到解方因為你現在不可能叫女性退回職場他們受到教育之後進入職場那如果他進入職場之後蠟燭兩頭燒他當然就越生越少了所以重要是這幾個解方就是我沒有看到哪個國家有這樣的解方 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10330.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10348.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
不僅沒有一個性別平等的價值跟理解最重要的就是沒有性別主流化看到真正的問題聯合國2019年指出聯合國針對少子化有報告各位上網都可以查就是可以Download |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10349.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10369.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
東亞尤其是臺灣有指出臺灣低生育率的原因是性別分工嚴重失衡女性被期待負擔照顧責任但是職涯與育兒難以兼顧所以省計部的建議缺乏性別主流化的觀點如果我們行政院依照你們的建議去做的話這個據說是不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10371.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10372.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
具體建議三點第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10388.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10409.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
要求各級政府單位決算中要納入性別統計重要關係人政策的重要關係人受益者要有性別統計第二個審核行政院自己列的性別預算的執行狀況第三個請你們的專業審核報告中納入性別主流化的觀點好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10409.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10438.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
好委員這個建議很好我們來做好謝謝那我相信你們可以找到很多專家願意幫你們就是說看如何改善那再來呢我還有另外一個意見就是剛剛的委員也有提到你們審核意見到底如何追蹤管考我知道你們很努力可是我從一個我關心的例子看到好像有點問題就是我長期監督教育部也很關心大專院校轉型跟退場 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10439.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10441.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
111年的報告也指出,針對110年的考核意見, |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10461.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10475.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
人代繼續改善經再研提審核意見通知前逃改善沈記長你們對部會預算執行改善成效不佳也只能這樣寫嗎?這樣有用嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10479.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10498.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
氣而不捨來努力因為這個他維持到這個也是他教育部比較重大的一個問題這是我是有點擔心因為我們是對沈記長期待很高那針對那個成效不彰的你們至少應該要寫得更強而有力一點吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10499.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10528.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我們都遵照委員的意見就是說尤其是這個教育的部分是國家對下一代人才的投資那退場的議題大家都非常的關心因為他影響到的是退場的教師的權益然後退場的學生的權益那教育部我們就已經有給他相關的工具在這裡的如果你們都看到做得不夠好的話那一定要更加嚴格好嗎因為你們是掌握各部會都很重視你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10529.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10556.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那所以呢最後我具體的建議強化監督各級政府施政跟究責就是說提供具體的施政建議那為國家把關資源做有效的運用那我想就是因為如果就是審計部你們看到部會做得不好的時候應該要善用自己的職權那通知表現不好機關的上級機關對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10559.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10575.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
如果教育部比如說高教師沒做好就要通知部長部長這邊如果都不聽的話你不就是應該要跟行政院長上級機關也向監察院報告好嗎好謝謝委員的支持我們都會照委員的意思這是我們的主責 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10576.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10605.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那如何提升效能跟增進公共利益是審計部向行政院提出建議要求確實改善的重要職責好不好當我們行政院都在推動性別主流化的話我想我們審計部也要跟上那監察院也有不少專家但是委員講的那個審核報告要注意性別主流化我已經記進去了報告的專業意見那個您記得哪方面有問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10606.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10633.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
你說說剛剛少子化就講我說素領結婚的我們但是我們是面相之一啦好少子化是一個例子齁這麼一個性別相關的你們的專業意見缺乏性別主流化另外一個是監督要有決算報告要有性別統計好那另外一個就是齁就是你們也針對行政院自己列出的性別預算性別預算我們會追蹤會考核好嗎好至少三大問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10633.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10635.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
謝謝范雲委員的詢問也謝謝我們陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第9號賴委員事保詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10670.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10677.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
謝謝院長、主席以及各位先進有請陳審計長麻煩再請陳審計長備選賴委員好審計長早現在探討一點比較大的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10691.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10706.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我們國家現在未償債未償的還沒還要不然債務有多少國家到到3月底子6兆2000億6兆2000億6兆2000億到上個月底到3月底到3月底6兆2000億 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10721.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10741.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
馬英九的時代馬英九當過總統那個任內他卸任的那時候債務多少五兆三千多億他的時代就五兆多五兆多他的五兆多五兆多五兆五兆多可是為什麼你的數字寫1.7兆呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10744.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10762.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
1.7兆對我的數字沒有你是債務一額嗎債務一額債務一額他不可能1.7兆他說5兆多5兆多那現在6兆2所以增加多少增加現在整個增加5兆6減掉5兆多差不多5000多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10764.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10791.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
增加五千多億對到三月啦如果以11年或者是四千多億去年的話以今年的結算報告是四千兩百億去年底的話是六兆六六兆六那是預算室預算室對預算室他後來沒有那個稅收好的時候就減少擠債增加還債所以啊我看到你的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10793.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10809.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那時候聯合報還誇你啊他說你啊你對於審計你審計這一塊你說前瞻分配不公實行不切實際聯合報把你打破打成這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10811.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10833.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
他那個是過度解讀啦我剛剛講的我不會做這樣的解釋啦公務員啊大家都在努力齁我們盡量啊大家都在努力難免會有一些簽署但是等一下肯定你丟棄啊你怕政治啊那個不是丟棄那個是過度解讀這個沈縣長你是一把大刀 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10834.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10844.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
你從我從任命的時候你就一直這樣鼓勵我啊謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝不用考慮政治的東西該怎麼講是怎麼講我們來看啦我們來看這個前瞻因為今天我們三個項目一個是前瞻前瞻的執行率啊排行榜最差的 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10862.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10882.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
維護部最長31%第二差的數位部38%你看看要跳下跳下來省機長靠近靠近農業部46%這個都是跟我們社會大家印象中很接近的大家覺得維護部 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10884.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10910.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
前瞻就是要錢要很多蘇華部也是拼命要錢結果錢都用不掉執行力只有31%31%執行力38%、46%你怎麼看我們要通知他改善通知他改善國家給他錢他要好好做市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10912.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10939.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這是我的主責啊我的感覺啦你這個審計長你把這個審計長越做越小你知道嗎?不會不會不會 剛才把你額漏啊你也不把他扛起來啊你丟棄喔照理講你要給他給他好好的一個警告或者什麼的結果你們的你們的審計報告就不痛不癢那個東西啊因為衛部部長叫做陳時中你不肯碰他嚇到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10941.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10943.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
實際上你比他們更大力 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10944.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10971.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
真的 你那大刀有夠大我的數字給你 桌球給你 你的話都不敢講 哇你誰誰誰啊我剛剛講得很大聲欸 剛剛李毓螺我講得還不小聲啊我就問你啊 你怎麼就要這樣改進啊對啊 像這些我們都有通知衛福部怎麼改進 你這樣怎麼改進衛福部 它那個長照 本來長照都落後 現在都改進了 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10973.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10980.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
其實不是啦長照的那個部件的地方都改進了那個其實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10982.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11011.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
其實有個事情啊衛福部的裡面的食藥署編了三十億億的預算蓋行政大樓所有的前瞻計畫裡面只有一百零一個敢去蓋行政大樓的就是衛福部的食藥署你也不敢糾正啊我沒有糾正錢啊但是我有損盡錢我有通知他啊你太慢了他怎麼敢去用前瞻的錢去蓋大樓沒有人敢蓋啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11012.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11029.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我那時候跟柯建民跟他吵啊我 我說我不同意 不同意他們就表決 他們一定贏啊沒辦法 我只好鼻子摸一摸 砍五千萬這樣給我砍五千萬勒 我就不敢玩了勒這個錢到現在勒 好 到現在 蓋不出來啦蓋不出來啦 物價都漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11030.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11055.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
對不對而且我再強調一遍前瞻預算裡面只有衛福部的食藥署敢編30幾億去蓋他的行政大樓當時的了解啊他那個是食品衛生的畫面然後裡面就藏幾個實驗室比如說我們這邊大樓十幾樓藏兩個實驗室五個實驗室其他都是辦公大樓這樣子搞我把他抓出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11058.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11060.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
111年度今年也是決勝報告之一裡面外交部 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11084.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11100.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
一方面他錢花不掉二方面保留預算保留的錢最多保留比例30%90億結果他還有剩36億你知道這是什麼嗎我錢用不完我還要再做外部的保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11101.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11116.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我的錢都用不完了我還要保留錢這個東西啊好像什麼我們小時候就看這個兄弟姊妹啊大家吃東西啊公家的先拿一點過來這裡我自己的放這裡吃兩份外交部就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11118.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11143.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
外交部這樣子謝謝委員你看出來了我們當時也提醒他他可能大保留成他有一些承諾國際外交的承諾他要保留下來但是我說被立算的時候就處理就好了所以我的錢我們希望他趕快去買黃色那些黃色他的住有率很低所以外交部的部分我們都有要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11144.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11161.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
中央全部的經費的剩餘有371億結果還跑了700多億加起來就1000多億啦1000多億放在各部會的手上欸變這個樣子啊我們通知他要改啊要他研究啊改了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11162.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11172.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
他好像還不容易改不會啦不會啦我們會和他共同我們慢慢會和他共同解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11183.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11192.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
不鳥你啊 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11210.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11227.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
糾正也好我要跟總統來努力我的意思是說拜託你也給我派一下你都沒給我派我還要先派啊省計長都沒給我派大家都不怕你行政部門都不怕你下一頁前瞻你知不知道現在前瞻剩多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11237.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11264.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
前瞻如果你是編譯算的話他因為8400億到現在已經編了7000多億所以還有700多億還沒編704億對委員算得很清楚但是我們的第7條第一款講得很清楚他是4年為一個期程所以他照理講就是8年8年你也沒有用完這個錢是不是在腳步請問你可以繼續用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11265.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11294.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
他是這樣這個是尊重大院或者尊重行政院去處理這是預算編列還有的問題這個還剩700多億但是法裡面有數年為期程他可能超過期程所以這一個部分希望這個是大院決定沒損失尊重所以你們不敢說話好我們再看一個下一個下一個你的報告我覺得是根據你報告來問你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11297.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11324.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
審計的決算報告：國際食品警訊通報：假的因為食藥署：這是你說：這個話都是你寫的食藥署沒有掌握問題問題產品在國內流通的情形為什麼沒有意義標準作業SOP查證問題沒有意義設計系統的條件沒有辦法即時的收訊例如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11327.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11340.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
你找不到人喔冰淇淋蝦醋醬泡麵巧克力讓食品有消費紅綠燈變不好食品紅綠燈這是你說的你講一下這是你的報告這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11344.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11363.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我們食品安全影響國人很大所以建立基柱非常重要因為你要靠茶靠那個用基柱來所以我們涉及基柱的部分我們都會加強查核加強提出意見來幫忙解決這個問題那他做不到怎麼辦我們還會繼續努力我們會再善盡職責 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11373.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11374.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
有關於電價要上漲的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11402.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11422.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
請問你知不知道現在台電資本額多少?資本額加了那個就是你寫的五千八百億還沒有算補貼五百億再補貼一千億補貼一千五百億再加五千八這麼多的錢然後居然還要跟老百姓漲價要跟我們要錢一坨牛撥好幾層皮這句話你同意嗎?這一個因為資本額是在強壯它 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11432.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11439.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
台電的體質補貼和虧損政府拿稅去補貼他的虧損已經補貼了還要漲價他一年大概估計現在這種情況因為他的售電單價低於他的售電成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11454.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11481.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那個發電成本所以啊對啊你講得很好啊就是賣得比成本低啊為什麼這個樣子就是人員結構的問題啊我們來看我們來看我數字給你清楚清清楚楚一個數字用核電8年來核電賺多少錢台電賺了2400億一年賺300億你現在企業份核酸要去掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11482.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11498.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所以我就請教你要不要督促這個政府要改一下他的發電的結構、人員的結構、核電的比例、核三長要延逸這個從審計的角度這個角度對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11501.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11525.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
核電成本是唯一的統計現在符合成本的就是核電和水利核電還比水利還便宜但是核電大家存有安全疑慮的問題所以這個安全的問題要解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11526.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11545.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
火力問題更危險現在肺癌是國病第一名都是因為空氣、空汙燒天然氣、燒煤容易得肺癌核電還沒有出什麼問題台電的核電管理能力全世界排名第4名 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11547.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11554.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
台電的合理管理這麼強,你擔心他有什麼問題?對不對?這個完全不是,對不對?我就跟你講說,噴到政治問題,你也酸欸你那個英文叫Sneaky,你也酸欸沈機長 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11562.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11587.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
沒有算啦!做了後繼續做!沒有!我跟妳講的!我跟妳講的!你這個就是意識形態!你到底就是意識形態!因為民進黨政府的意識形態!讓我們給台電這麼多錢呢!五千八百億加一千五百億!七八千億!然後還要漲電價!然後他還要把核電廠廢掉!這是什麼政府? |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11592.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11597.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
謝謝賴委員事保的詢問也謝謝我們陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第10號鍾委員嘉賓詢問謝謝主席感謝記住我姓鍾不姓徐謝謝院長那麼有請我們的陳審計長再請陳審計長備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11625.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11645.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
委員好沈議長好我們看到這次我們有常態的年度決算以及特別決算那麼我要請教一下沈議長我們這個決算審計剛才依法我們有包括在財務上要審核財務收支績效上提出建議跟預警那你覺得在這三個決算當中合法性的審議還OK吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11648.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11677.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
OK還可以那有沒有財務上的很多為師呢沒有查到一些一些蟲物花蠟或者異稜不合諸葛齡所以我看到您的報告我是特別重視您對績效性審計您的意見好這三個決算它的規模大概是加起來多少剛剛差不多三四兆三兆七千五百億好那麼分別是兩兆七八千三百億及兩千兩百億好我們想看那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11677.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11703.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
目前你提出了10項審計的意見而我很重視你特別提到防疫紓困振興決算一個部分前瞻第三期一個部分然後關於110年度的總決算提出包括安全的部分你提到交通安全、自動安全、毒品防治人口的部分你提到了少子女化的對策還有長征2.0關於居住的部分你提到都市更新、都市計畫跟青年居住是不是顯見審計長很重視這幾個項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11705.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11724.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
我們現在在發展關鍵議題對於國際民生很好那底下我就依序根據您的意見我來提出我的看法首先我們看到您提到下一頁提到說這一次呢111年度的決算當中有發現台電中油跟台灣中油跟台電有虧損什麼原因造成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11726.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11747.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
有談到燃料價格在上漲就國際燃料價格的上漲成本提高嗎對好那你就這種情況之下為了避免在我們在審計建議上我們覺得他是不是應該適當調整電價這一方面因為涉及民生問題從審計的角度是不是應該要考慮成本提升要調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11747.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11764.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我比較成本要提升以外他台電因為他的那個負債他歷史費用也大他的負債是來自於之前電價低成本高所造成的那你看其他的國家電價是長得很兇其他國家的電價長得兇那我們電價報反應成本你認為從審計的角度電價報反應成本這兩間公司如果在整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11775.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11803.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
整個經營體制強化以後啊因為我認為應該如果再沒有要要要要反映所以你覺得目前我們電價的調整大戶漲幅高但是小戶微調你覺得這樣對於民生的衝擊是相對比較輕對已經啊有考慮到了但是啊能夠盡量考慮啊好很好所以呢我們來繼續看齁在110年度的總決算當中您提到了財政機率下一頁齁稅入稅出的平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11804.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11812.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
你提到了稅入稅出的剩餘將近有5000億還了1500億的債你覺得目前的財政收支結構是否有改善了 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11812.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11838.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
因為財政收支結構就在看經常收支這一塊經常收支這一塊已經大幅改善已經有多了五、六千億上癮很好所以國家的財政體質有改善我們往下看所以你看一看各國的政府的債務比目前以台灣來看我們的債務佔GDP的比重你覺得台灣算是表現得怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11839.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11855.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
應該比其他國家好都來得好嘛我們只有24.1%嘛一年期以上的債務佔的GDP佔比很低嘛是不是那這個表示我們國家未來在因應國家的各種的需要各種的突發狀況我們有餘裕如果必要舉債的話我們是經得起的是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11855.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11872.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
對的因為還有幾兆的一兩兆的那個一兩兆的空間很好你講出了一兩兆的空間那麼防疫跟紓困振興計畫當中你提到了我請教一下這將近8300多億當中你覺得哪個部會執行的比例最高 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11874.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11888.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
因為在振興裡面是經濟部最高我不是管振興他就防疫紓困振興一般人聽到防疫紓困振興直覺就反應什麼衛福部啦買疫苗啦買口罩啦照顧這些病患花最多錢事實上是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11889.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11913.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
因為在振興這一塊花掉了將近四千億沒有錯我們經濟部單單經濟部主管的就是三千三百多億關了四成衛護部主管的不到三成所以重點如果你們審計報告上你們重點要看什麼看經濟部跟這些紓困跟振興的是不是比較是重點對的我們有我們會按照但是我要跟陳議長說你們花了很多篇我再討論疫苗 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11914.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11930.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我說一個八千三百多億的大餅要你們去審計要是我是你的話我先看什麼花最多的紓困跟振興將近多少四千億嘛當中經濟部最主要嘛花了三千三百多億嘛你知道經濟部這三千三百多億花在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11931.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11952.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
大概補貼企業有個人的三倍券、五倍券嘛對不對三倍券、五倍券加起來差不多超過一千六百多億嘛這樣一半嘛其他的就是補貼企業減少他們的衝擊嘛所以經濟部這三千三百多億當中有一半是個人記錄對不對讓這些弱勢的可以達到補貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11953.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11957.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
另外的扶清企業營運遇到困難的幫助他繼續站下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11983.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12007.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
比例算很低吧因為這樣啦因為我們遇到緊急情況的時候要重憂重訴沒有錯就是重憂重訴的情況讓這個制度能推動對所以重要的緊急狀況重憂重訴應該關心注意的是需要幫助的有沒有得到幫助不是聚焦說少數人有沒有佔小便宜是不是這樣子對所以我要問你們你們的審計報告應該放在 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12008.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12030.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
到底這些錢花下去需要幫助的人有沒有都拿到對不對對那他們得到這個幫助之後夠不夠人都快餓死了你給他兩個包子他有得到幫助啦但是活不下去所以我要問你們的審計報告有沒有注意到經濟部這些對企業的振興或紓困有沒有幫助這些企業活起來活回來站下去有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12032.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12051.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我們會整個看過那你們看過之後你們覺得有沒有達到你們覺得應該有的績效就是這些錢給這些需要幫助的企業或個人有幫助他繼續經營下去我們在看我們這幾年的經濟成長都非常的良好就知道這一方面就有一些那個但是我們會注意到你這樣講就讓我覺得不夠專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12054.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12071.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
你說這個錢花的效果看起來都活得不錯所以應該效果不錯我是覺得你們要花點時間去經濟部調一調這些資料你知道這錢花給誰嗎那些營業額不到20萬的民用統一發票的我們給他一加4萬塊你知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12072.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12075.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以我希望你們後續阿對於這個補貼申請跟後續營業的資料呢你們要不要秩序收集 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12098.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12125.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
不是說這個決算通過了到底這個錢有沒有效果都活得很好所以有效不信你們要用這樣的數據的方式去統計可以嗎所以說誰需要補助誰值得投資我這邊提出一個看法我過去在院外的時候提出我希望讓小店家減輕他們的稅務負擔那過去我們的起徵點20萬以下沒有統一發票的營業稅他大概是這樣4萬、8萬、服務業4萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12128.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12149.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那個一般的其他的8萬那免徵到20萬之間的規模的呢1%營業稅20萬以上要用統一發票要5%的營業稅我曾經提出說可不可以把起徵點提高到20萬要開發票的才要徵營業稅而且呢20萬到50萬之間的呢我們跟他徵1%的營業稅優惠你知道這個1%的營業稅優惠的構想哪裡來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12154.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12177.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
是我們2018年賴清德院長的時候他為了鼓勵青年創業這些青年創業的他會用行動支付只要你使用行動支付你就算營業額從十幾萬變成二十幾萬、三十幾萬你都可以繼續適用1%的營業稅優惠你覺得這個政策好不好好的好的那你知道他明年要落日了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12178.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12199.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
到明年為止如果政策好效益大你也會支持繼續推動要繼續推動很好所以我就提出來了其實今年財政部就考慮要把這些小店家把起震點調高到14萬跟7萬當然離我的目標20萬還有點距離但是我接下來請看下一頁我的主張是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12200.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12209.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
就是說比照我們賴院長時期給予20萬到50萬規模的營業者他的營業稅本來5%給他有條件的1%的優惠而20萬以下的通通是免徵營業稅這樣子這些人將近52萬、53萬他減少的稅收只少收了34.7億你知道我們營業稅單單是2022年營業稅收了多少錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12227.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12253.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
五千多億對五千多億少個三十幾億你覺得國家承擔得起嗎這個可以促進因為他們是小本生意能夠幫他這個因為對我們整個社會平等很重要所以你也支持謝謝那我們往下看所以在看到你的前瞻計畫前瞻三期大概2200億對不對那你覺得他有什麼效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12254.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12277.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
他提升了一些工作這是國科會有你們的報告裡面他創造了14萬個就業機會也帶動了4千億的民間投資你覺得划不划算這應該是划算的但是你們的審計意見當中呢要提升執行能力要加強對地方的管考還有呢未來呢有沒有沒有辦法實行民國的研究規劃我覺得你們寫的齁就很一般吶 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12278.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12302.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
創造了就業機會：帶動了民間投資未來你覺得值不值得我們未來的賴總統繼續延續蔡總統在2016年8年8千億的前瞻建設未來的國家西方工程也繼續投資我們現在國家的財政你說大概有一兩兆的空間你知不支持未來的內閣繼續推動類似前瞻基礎建設這樣帶動國家基礎建設幫助國家發展的特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12306.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12308.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
對那也值得未來繼續推動好那我先問你你覺得未來我們要是再做一個類似前瞻的 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12324.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12343.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
希望工程國家特別預算大概要用多少?三兆兩兆一兆你覺得規模大概多少?參考到蔡總統的八年八千八百億我還是考慮到要稍微注意到財政的承受性你覺得三兆可能嗎?三兆我還是要評估這個財政的承受性那兩兆怎麼可能?兩兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12350.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12357.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
但是你剛剛有說到我們目前的財政結構健全嘛一兩兆的取代空間都有嘛那保守一點一兆是不是比較可以承擔的 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12359.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12387.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
我是比較偏向啊財政的永續還是永續嘛對不對但你剛提到台灣的最近幾年財政發展呢餘裕良好還有一兩兆還有建設的成本效益如果我們的財政還有這麼一點點的空間大概一兆的空間你覺得我們有辦法去支持一個2500億的花東塊去支持一個8000億的國六研發連段甚至有人評估要花兩兆的黃藻高鐵加起來三兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12388.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12410.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
這樣的特別預算未來有可能在8年內去執行嗎?我整個都尊重行政院還有大院的整個決議所以我就是總和我們現在國家的財政餘裕大概還有1、2兆的舉財空間如果有人主張要去推動超過3兆的計畫我就要評估啦往下看但是怎麼可以做呢?我們來看一下你有沒有聽過桃園機場稅休跑到塞機 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12411.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12415.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
有沒有聽過你覺得是怎麼受到影響是客運受到影響還是貨運受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12419.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12448.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我直接告訴你啦台灣的空運啊貨運有九成六在桃園啦五成一在桃園啦桃園機場塞機影響的不是客運啦影響的是貨運啦貨運當中最重要的是我們半陶體的晶片出口啦半陶體產業重不重要對台灣重不重要當然很重要而且半陶體的產業重心已經難移啊所以未來呢我們希望在南部建一個國際的貨運機場你覺得這有沒有有助於符合未來台灣十年半陶體產業的出口需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12450.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12468.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
整個看台積電在中南部已經都有漏腳了所以可能這個都是一個很好的評估方向那在你的那個口頭報道當中有肯定前瞻建設新規成果再投入強化特定建設110年總決算你有提到長照2.0少子化對策 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12469.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12482.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
主動方式未來繼續加強對不對對你肯定了這三項好那現在我們省錢還債之後什麼值得投資你覺得如果目前台灣的育兒情況來調查值不值得投資在我們的幼兒照顧上 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12483.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12500.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
因為我們現在少主要幼兒的照顧非常重要非常重要好所以我們看到這裡面最重要是什麼就是幼兒幼保員的薪水啦其實相較於我們的國中小教師他們的薪水偏低如果未來政府行有餘力提升他們的薪水你就有沒有幫助這個當然有幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12502.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12525.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
好所以我最後的結論直接跳到最後一頁我們聽今天的決算報告呢電價要合理調整我們財政的強化特別預算可以投入特定建設年度預算投資下一代幫助青年創業我們也支持小店家優惠稅率調升擴大適用範圍你覺得如何我一直支持委員的意見太好了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12527.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12530.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
謝謝總委員嘉賓的詢問再次謝謝我們陳審計長的備詢報告院會上午會議進行到此為止下午2點30分繼續開會進行審核報告之諮詢現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
21595.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
21598.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
報告委員會現在我們繼續開會接下來我們請羅委員志強詢問主席有請沈記長麻煩再請陳審議長備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
21620.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
21644.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
委員好沈記長好首先我覺得審計部的決算審核就像一面照妖鏡把政府敗壞財政紀律現行了那這一點我是肯定我們審計部的一個報告能夠幫忙我們抓政府的財政以及各方面的一個漏洞也好讓立法院來協助補強所以先謝謝沈記長跟審計部 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
21649.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
21656.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
這是我們的主軸 謝謝那沈記長你口頭報告有提到中央政府一年以上債務未償餘額是5兆6997億元對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
21661.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
21682.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
那這個數字換算下來﹐國人每年每人平均背負國債25萬那蔡英文政府任內特別預算經費高達2.4兆元那許多的執行期間都是到下任政府請問沈記長這算不算是另外一種債留子孫呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
21685.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
21705.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
這個整個預算的注度是這樣的沒有他會再如果通過了這個預算他會保留繼續延下去有這樣的一個情境是好當然蔡總統是否認債留子孫說他任內只增加了4000多億債務但本席認為這只是話術而已為什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
21705.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
21715.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
因為蔡政府舉債的預算數確實是最高的因此因為特別預算分年編列加上稅收成長債務還本提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
21717.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
21738.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
使得舉債的帳面數字比較好看但是只要稅收不如預期債務就會失控而且將巨額且未來可能會有的計劃預算全數編列進特別預算並且對外宣稱年年勝於財政很健康這我認為其實就是欺騙人民而且無視財政紀律 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
21739.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
21765.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那我看過過去就是109年度監察院的報告曾指出我國特別預算之編列有常態化的現象中央政府恐有將部分支出隱藏於前瞻計劃特別預算造成年度然後總預算財政收支平衡之假象那想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
21766.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
21793.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
沈記長你認同這一份報告裡面的說法嗎那特別預算常態化對未來財政造成的影響會是什麼這一個我們是希望在編特別預算的時候要出損勝的態度對那像我們現在特別預算照這個監察院的之前的報告已經有常態化的現象這常態化的現象對我們財政機率的影響是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
21794.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
21823.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
這個要看相對的有沒有財源這個整個是不是這個預算該不該編可能還是比較重要因為一個建設他會創造國家的一些效能效益所以我是比較常希望那個計畫要考慮在評估的比較順重一點我跟沈縣長說明一下其實中間也不只是常在的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
21824.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
21849.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
事實上特別預算對行政機關也有變異形式當然它可能也是比較方便所以帶有變異形式也比較容易逃避監督所以換言之特別預算不是不可以但是如果腐爛編列常態化的去編列的話當然會對財政機率造成衝擊所以這一點的話是我想說也是要提醒一下我們行政部門不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
21850.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
21871.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
把特別預算當作自己好像是非常方便使用的私房錢一樣的概念那立法院之所以存在常態化的預算監督其實為的就是使錢能夠用在刀口之上能夠透明化讓全民來去檢驗預算的合理性這點我不知道沈記長您認同嗎?這我認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
21874.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
21891.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那麼當然其實蔡總統說啦他說前瞻計畫的目標是讓國家建設更多更快更貼近民眾的需求所以讓城鄉建設可以做得更好但是我看到依照我們審計部的決算報告前瞻第三期特別預算的分支計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
21892.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
21921.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
有超過6成位於特別預算執行期間完成其中軌道建設部分第三期特別預算的實現率只有65.1%其中10項計畫甚至沒有實現數主要是因為也沒有經過行政院核定那我想請教沈記長有印象這10項所謂的沒有實現數的計畫是哪些呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
21923.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
21950.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
非常抱歉我手上沒有這個資料但是我們的同仁我們的整個有這些資料因為大部分都是在做像那個嘉義市的那個高價評估啦各方面這些他沒有沒有實現是因為軌道的建設啊涉及的很多啦那個要經過計畫評估可行性的評估各方面啦他還有細部的評估啊他都是要很慎重好 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
21951.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
21979.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我跟沈記長補充其中兩項我也特別關切就是臺中捷運藍線以及臺中捷運綠線延伸彰化這兩項計畫都是報告中所指無時限速的計畫那個藍線跟綠線延伸都在2017年納入前瞻計畫直到今年選後才分別獲得行政院合併綜合計畫可行性研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
21980.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
22004.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
實際上我覺得省紀部的報告很公允雖然也是客觀還原實際的情況但是你也知道之前這個台中的方面很多人在吵到底是誰在卡台中的捷運我覺得這上面很清楚十項的未實現數有兩項是台中的捷運藍線跟綠線延伸行政院根本在這個部分實際上是處在一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
22005.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
22022.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
沒有積極作為的地方所以誰卡地方建設我倒是覺得從省紀部的報告當中卻看得很清楚那接下來我要看看中央對地方補助的部分依照省紀部報告截至111年底中央主管機關合訂計劃總經費總共是9900億元左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
22029.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
22031.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那合定的補助總數是5358億4202萬元請問沈記長你知道哪個縣市獲得的這個補助是最多哪個縣市六都裡面誰是最少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
22045.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
22061.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
合訂的補製合訂的補製是高雄市最多一千兩百多億實際上撥補的是新北市是比較多的那六都中台中是少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
22062.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
22081.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
但是剛剛委員有講這兩個計畫合併下去台中已經躍升合併補助的900多億我看到的部分我想是六都六都目前台北市是最少台北市是184億那高雄合併獲得中央是1265億那自籌是810億元佔總經費的39%台北市不只是今天只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
22092.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
22099.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
高雄市的尾數而已事實上在六都排名最後全國排名第九而且80%的經費都要自籌 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
22102.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
22128.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
所以這是外界其實對於所謂的到底為什麼今天我們中央對地方的補助5300多億你核定高雄就1265億將近四分之一這核定的基準也難免讓外界有一些疑問說難道是今天是看顏色來撥補嗎所以我也希望說今天透過審計部的報告我希望給我們的國人以及行政機關一個警訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
22131.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
22149.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
就是說也要顧及說今天各個縣市的建設需求當然不是說不能夠撥補而不能夠核定補助可是你的分配如此懸殊單一縣市就佔掉了將近四分之一然後呢其他縣台中也只有兩百多億啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
22150.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
22161.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
然後呢 台北市是184億那這樣的一個數字出來的時候當然對於其他縣市的民眾可能就會有一種厚恥薄彼的感覺嘛我不知道沈記長覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
22163.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
22187.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
因為建設有前有後臺北市的捷運是坐在比較前面但是高雄正在興建所以會有產生那台中的部分他都在規劃中或者送合訂中所以會有產生這個有差別的情況但是一般都希望都按照計劃的情形來合訂補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
22189.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
22194.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
審計部報告當中又提到,前瞻計畫地方政府自籌4542億,佔總經費45.88%,地方已經編列預算只有1514億,只佔中央合併自籌經費的33%。 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
22209.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
22224.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
上有巨額的經費要於以後年度繼續籌編：那各縣是在既定有限的預算資源之下：為了籌編分擔款：將排擠其他計畫財源之籌措：這是剛剛我再稍微回應一下剛剛主計長您講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
22226.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
22244.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
投入的經費的核定是一回事實際上我們也看到關於自籌的部分我剛才前面講了高雄的自籌相對來講獲得比較好的分配它自籌的比例比較低但是台北市的話自籌我看到數字就是將近八成 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
22244.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
22271.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
所以我講的也不只是絕對的數字也包括所謂自籌的這樣的一個分配所以兩相比較起來當然我是必須講說即便說今天很多人拿說哪些縣市的這個發展可能它比較有所謂的發展比較早比較快或它財源比較充裕可是我剛剛已經講了光台中來講就不是這一回事你可以講台北跟高雄你說有一個落差但台中跟高雄我不認為有什麼太大的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
22273.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
22292.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那當然剛剛主席講到說那是因為行政院這個合併的狀況這就是問題之所在嘛所以常常有人質疑說今天搞了半天你卡住台中的建設你在行政院的部分你合併並不積極你沒有積極的幫助台中市的時候那連帶就影響到連剛剛主席講的這個前瞻的經費的 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
22295.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
22318.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
撥補或是補助的合定也產生連動的影響這些不是都是相關的嗎我不知道主席想怎麼看對這個是會產生一些相關我再想請教前瞻建設的八大建設之一的食品安全然後總共編列30億元的預算可是對照今天食安事件頻傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
22320.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
22347.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那我是不太清楚我們的食安的這個預算到底是花在什麼樣的地方有沒有發揮它實際的功效我舉幾個具體的數字也給沈記長參考我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候曾經有問過請教他過兩個問題其實坦白講我是有點失望因為那時候他在講說他的蔡英文政府的食安表現遠遠的好過馬英九政府時候的食安表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
22348.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
22368.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
他只要舉出的數字舉出的數字只有一個啦他說因為這個陳院長跟蔡總統主政之下我們的系統性食安問題只有兩件蔡英文政府只有兩件所以食安做的真的是非常的棒結果呢他講完之後主席知道發生什麼事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
22369.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
22382.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
就蘇丹鴻啊對 蘇丹鴻在報告食安的時候我都說陳建仁是烏鴉嘴啊他才誇口質疑食安信友系食安問題最少結果講的當下蘇丹鴻就爆發 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
22383.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
22405.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
不到幾天五萬衛福部部長薛部長就直接承認蘇丹紅就是系統性食安問題那第二個也很離譜啊我覺得真的我們陳建銘院長真的是個烏鴉嘴你知道嗎為什麼因為我就問他說我不太理解我們的院長的報告一直說自己的食安做得好棒棒嘛政府做得很差勁 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
22406.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
22431.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
結果呢我看到食品中毒的人數竟然每年蔡英文執政這8年比馬英九執政這8年每年多400人8年算起來快要3000多人啊那我想請教我們院長說那請問我看食品中毒人數暴增你怎麼會覺得你的食安做得比較好呢主要你知道我們的陳靜蕾院長怎麼回答我你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
22434.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
22460.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
你不知道啦你一定不知道啦他說食品中毒不是食安問題啊他還不只講一次我的質詢一直插話跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題結果我後來再去質詢薛部長我就不服氣啊我說食品中毒怎麼不是食安問題吃到肚子裡可能健康受損甚至可能奪到人命怎麼不是食安問題薛部長就很誠實啊直接跟我講食品中毒就是食安問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
22461.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
22488.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
結果我一個月前直批我們的政府食品中毒的管制做不好結果院長跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題請問最近發生什麼事情?那個有保齡的事件對啊保齡事件啊鬧出人命來所以我要講就是說今天我們政府預算也給你啦就像省政府報告講的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
22489.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
22508.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
編列30億元的預算給你啊那我想請問到底我們現在政府對於食安的部分給你預算、給你經費你有把食安做好嗎?我不知道沈縣長怎麼去看你們自己在審核過程當中政府對於食安的這件事情真的有做到該做的所有的事情嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
22510.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
22525.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
我們會從這個十萬五環裡面的沿途管理各方面都給相關單位一些審核意見希望他們去重視非常謝謝沈紀長以上感謝謝謝樓委員志強的詢問也謝謝陳沈紀長的備詢接下來我們請登記第12號紅委員申翰詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
22549.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
22551.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
主教請審計長麻煩再請陳審計長備詢王委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
22563.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
22579.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
呃,審議長好吼那這一次我們看到審計部針對這個111年的中央政府總預算還有紓困振興的特別決算提出這個審核的報告那我們讀了這個裡面審查的一些意見但有幾點我想要再跟審議長來做一個討論跟請教吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
22582.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
22592.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
那第一個點是想跟審議長討論的是關於在紓困振興計畫上面其實在第一項意見中審查報告上面寫了一段這個他寫說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
22596.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
22622.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
政府辦理各項紓困補貼措施：有助緩解受疫情影響的產業跟個人衝擊但有重複發放或補貼對象資格不符的情勢發生衍生後續追繳行政作業成本那未來如果辦理類似補貼措施的話應該要完善政策及作業規劃使政府施政更增周延 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
22624.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
22643.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
我其實看了這一段以後我就回想到那時候包括從2020年當時在疫情一開始的時候大家就討論那時候規劃要做所謂的紓困金那這個紓困金要發放給民眾的時候其實大家一直講到有一類的對象我不知道沈議長還記不記得就是那些賣玉蘭花 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
22644.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
22671.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
或者是在入口這個舉牌子的這些你說他是勞工嗎他其實不是正式的勞工但他確實是付出一個最底層的勞動力在工作的這個狀況那這些非典型的勞動的民眾其實當時大家一直在討論我們到底能用什麼方式可以把這個所謂紓困金或他們需要的資源能夠發放給他們因為他確實是當時可能受影響最大的而且是社會最邊緣的這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
22673.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
22695.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那後來我們發現這個設計就有重重的困難因為在廣義的社會救助的體系裡面其實在制度上面這一群人其實都是被漏掉的一塊所以也不一定我們能夠去用所謂的中低收入戶的部分可以涵蓋他們因為他們很可能也不在中低收入戶的這個涵蓋的範圍裡面所以後來討論很久 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
22699.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
22719.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
這個公務員其實也提到一個問題說他們有時候會有點擔心會不會有違法會不會有議領這個狀況那尤其是議領會面對審計部門的檢討那我們看到這個報告當然就檢討了這件事情可是我今天為什麼要特別提出來跟審議長討論我其實覺得這個檢討本身我覺得是有值得討論的空間的 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
22724.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
22741.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我們其實當初在設計這個紓困金制度的時候當時就是找不到合適的機制跟方法所以後來選擇了用所謂疾難救助的做法那這個疾難救助的做法它其實就是以家戶為單位嘛所以講清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
22742.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
22766.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
用加護人單位的時候可是這裡面會有很多自助不相符的問題所以那時候跟行政院談了很久最後討論必須用一個切結書一個比較彈性的方式處理這個問題但切結書當然不是一個根本處理的方法但是沒有辦法我們就沒有找到一個邏輯清楚對應到這一群人的做法其實現在我們看到這個沈議長我看到你們的表示這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
22770.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
22799.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
這個審核報告中的表示裡面看到在衛福部這一項數據上面應追繳的有1億4818萬元那目前已經追繳的大概只有4000多萬元也就是大概還有1億元沒有追繳相比於其他部會的其他部會有些其實追繳的狀況程度很高有一些其實已經追繳大部分都能夠追繳到但是在這一項衛福部這一項顯然很難追繳得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
22801.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
22829.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那個沈議長我很擔心喔當你這份報告出來以後我們未來假設要再設計相關的制度的時候其實公務員的心態又會保守為什麼說怕他們保守當初其實就是因為他們很怕會發生易領的狀況所以就想要把這個機制設計的很複雜因為怕易領可是當他一設計複雜的時候就會把很多人又排除在外了沈議長你對這事情怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
22831.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
22849.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
行政院對發生這個疫情的時候是用從優從市重檢會方好的一個原則這個原則要能夠繼續再一直往前推後面不容好像說有人會議領其實我們這個我們查到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
22850.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
22870.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
查到的不會說他是他的所得啊綜合所得啊有超過100萬以上的因為勞動部是定債50萬所以這一部分我們請他再看看因為這和我們的規定不符所以這個是有這樣的情形我這邊我要跟你討論的事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
22872.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
22900.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
其實因為我們當初用急難救助這個項目他是用家戶去算所以可能我舉個例子我們可能有一個家庭其實一個父親也許他因為他的工作的關係或他因為個性的關係其實被這個家庭給逐出去了可能他的太太小孩其實日子過得不錯但這個爸爸卻因為其實他被逐出家裡所以他的生活過得非常非常的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
22901.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
22923.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
像這種人你要他回到家裡面他回不去了他沒有辦法再接受到家裡面的幫助因為各種原因家裡面的原因把他給趕出去了可是我們需要幫助他但是在這種狀況之下我們因為用家戶來計算的時候會看起來他是沒有問題的這是我們現在制度設計上面的盲點 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
22924.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
22951.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
那也因為我們其實等於是會有很多制度設計的缺漏的問題所以我自己覺得我當時我就覺得對於有可能不一定那種百分百精準的狀況我們應該要容錯率高一點不然我們層層設計的設計一個複雜的機制設計的要切得很乾淨盡量沒有容錯的機制的時候像我剛才說的這個爸爸他就會被踢出去了他就會被視為 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
22953.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
22973.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
你沒有資格可以請領紓困金的人可是在那個當下他就是需要的人他就是我們需要幫助的人這是現在我們看到你在事後的審計的過程裡面但我知道審計是一門很重要的專業我沒有要去挑戰這件事我也都很尊重可是我覺得我們在這個相關表面的時候我也很擔心我們的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
22973.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
22984.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
如果只是單純看這上面的審計報告的這樣子結論的時候未來我們在機制設計的時候你又把它設計的繁複又把它設計的這個排除性很高怕錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
22986.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
23005.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
怕易領的話反而該幫助的人不一定幫助得到?委員這個很好,大概我們第一個勞動部和我談他說我超過100萬和我們訂的50萬訂的那個標準是超過很多這是公平的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
23006.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
23030.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
但是委員所剛剛講的有產生極難的部分我們我要勞動部也應該說這一個要怎麼樣去幫忙他這一個是我們有考慮可是我現在講的是衛福部啊因為今天就是衛福部啊都是這樣的一個情況那就再來因為從優從事重檢是政府的政策我們沒有追究任何 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
23031.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
23056.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
一個公務人員在做這件事的人因為當時的環境也必須要這樣做但我很希望沈議長我覺得我們其實也透過疫情的過程我們再重新檢視我們這些機制有沒有缺漏的地方有沒有哪一群我們其實一直想要幫助的人可是我們既有機制一直觸及不到他們或找不到一個相對比較有邏輯清晰的路徑去觸及到他們坦白說我們發現還不少 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
23057.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
23081.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
這是我們制度上面要去修正包括法規上面法規的邏輯要去修訂的地方我自己很希望說接下來也許像我們的審核的報告裡面或審計的報告裡面其實我們可以把這些深層的原因給點出來不只是呈現說是不是有易領、追繳等等等我自己看到說如果我們單純從這個數字的表面來看的話其實很可能公務員他就會有一個比較保守的心態盡量不要出錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
23082.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
23082.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
是否是否 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
23100.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
23115.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
英國的經營很清楚他一開始的時候我給你幫助我願意可以把門開大一點寬鬆一點我讓你都進來可是你進來以後我可能做法是我也要你盡一些責任這個責任可能是你要提供一些勞務或者是你要 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
23116.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
23132.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
去就業所以我開始幫你媒合就業所以他把門開大了以後他的作用是我透過這個機制或這個社會的救助來導正你進入到一個正軌而不是只是純粹的給你錢或給你幫忙而已所以在英國機制裡面你看到的事情是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
23132.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
23156.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
他們是把一開始把門開的比較大比較寬鬆比較沒那麼嚴格但他後續的機制的設計裡面他有一個蠻強的導引性的作用在那個地方我覺得都很值得我們來參考所以以後我自己是希望說我們審計部在做相關審核的時候我覺得也可以把這些事情也可以思考進去至少在我們公務部門行政部門在看到在讀的時候或在 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
23157.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
23164.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
去做check的時候他可以有一些想法上面的刺激不然如果只是單純從表面來看的話這是我們會憂心的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
23165.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
23187.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
報告委員我們審計不會創造那個審核標準我們的審核標準完全依照行政機部門所訂出來的的一個制度剛剛委員這樣講如果是這樣的制度我們完全尊重這樣的制度是但是我要提醒就是說我們在寫審核報告的時候我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
23188.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
23214.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
不只是留於表面上面的數字這是第一點我想要跟審議長討論的第二點這個審議長我們在你們的報告裡面有看到一個部分是看到在這個紓困政績的特別預算審核報告裡面的意見的第七項有一個是針對這個COVID-19染疫康復者跨科別整合醫療照顧服務不再續判的這件事情我看到審計部其實有提供了一些意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
23215.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
23235.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
那其實這個關於COVID的染疫康復者的跨科別整合醫療照顧服務其實是我在2021年10月的時候向衛福部提出一個這個建議那因為當時其實已經越來越多的染疫者在康復的經驗裡面發現他其實留下蠻多的後遺症也就是大家所謂說的長新冠就是Long COVID的這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
23236.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
23255.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
而且這個Long Covid他其實他就會遇到他不知道去看哪一科因為科別可能包括耳鼻喉科可能包括身心科可能包括胸腔科可能包括腹腱科很不知道哪一科所以當時就希望有一個這個整合的門診那這個整合門診也符合那我現在看到審計部的報告裡面有講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
23256.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
23275.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
去年11月衛福部把這個長新冠的整合門診停止可是相關的數字台灣確診的人數目前看起來是有超過1000萬大概只有8861名有Long Covid的醫療照顧可是可能只有大概三成2669人有接受整合門診的會診的服務就這個陳議長你來看的話為什麼大概只有三成左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
23285.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
23311.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
有接受整合服務?你覺得原因是什麼?這一個部分我們在意只是希望他這一個不要停你希望他不要停嗎?對,我們是叫他不要停沈議長你們這看法跟我一樣那我們也希望往下再去討論他之所以停我自己覺得看起來因為他看起來他只有三成三成我就很好奇到底你是你原本門診的量能不足還是你宣傳不足還是沒有這個需求沈議長你覺得? |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
23313.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
23340.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
因為這個我們一直對民眾的健康我們一直也很關照是所以整個剛剛委員在談的包括前面那個我們損失的立場不遺漏盡頭準得取肉數的我們更為更加注意所以應該這一個部分我們也是請衛福部能夠稍微再看看能夠幫忙這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
23341.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
23358.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
所以我們當時提出這樣的一個意見事實上現在一直到現在都還有人在染疫只是現在媒體沒有像前面三年這樣子每天去追蹤染疫的數字或染疫的人現在還有人在染疫其實現在染疫以後還是有可能會有長新冠的狀況發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
23359.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
23388.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
那如果你遇到長新患長新患的狀況你可能也一樣後遺症你也不知道自己到底病因是什麼地方或哪裡造成你的問題所以我非常非常同意其實到現在還是有整合門診的需求尤其是我們看到像美國CDC的這個報告裡面他說5個人裡面的COVID就有一個有Long COVID65歲以上的話是4個人裡面就有一個所以我們是有這個需求的所以我們也希望接下來包括像審計部裡面當然可以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
23388.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
23414.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
以這個角度再提醒我們的衛福部不要只是以經濟效益去計算或來做這個判斷其實我們現在當下還是有這個需求這個不要好像變成不在那個染疫關注COVID的期間大家轉移的目標現在好像11月就草草把這些整合門整個關掉我們未來也會來追蹤但是很謝謝沈記長在你們的報告裡面其實做了這個方面的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
23415.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
23441.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
那不然我坦白說當時我們提出這個政策建議我也是在你們審核的報告裡面看到居然在11月停了可是看起來我們是還有需求這部分我覺得可以跟審計部我們可以一起來努力啦好我們會來追蹤整個衛福部對這個方面的檢討情形怎麼樣來盡量的來滿足這些發生這些不掌力的民眾的一些需求好謝謝 沈院長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
23445.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
23451.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
好謝謝洪委員深悍的質詢也謝謝陳審議長的備詢接下來我們請登記第13位王委員洪威詢問好謝謝主席我請審計長再請陳審計長備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
23476.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
23480.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
好,沈議長辛苦了沈議長請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
23483.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
23509.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
這一本我們今天主要是針對包含前瞻基礎建設還有111年度的審計報告那事實上這本報告在去年就出爐了對不對那我也不曉得為什麼我們的這個諮詢會排在這麼之後我還以為有最新的審計報告去年這份報告曾經引起軒然大波我相信當時你們也有很多的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
23510.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
23535.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
就是當時有關於尤其前瞻計劃就是在這份報告裡面呈現的就是對於各縣市政府市上補助款有嚴重的落差比如說那時候台北市才184億但是呢高雄有1200多億所以那個時候曾經有一個話題我知道你們其實壓力非常大所以我想請教沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
23537.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
23553.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
這個尤其去年這樣的壓力會不會影響我們審計部未來在對行政院各個不管是公務預算或者特別預算在審計上面的你們的這些尺度和標準會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
23554.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
23559.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我把這本書幾乎也都翻過一遍事實上我還蠻佩服我們審計部同仁的一個努力所以我希望我們審計部能夠繼續維持這樣的一個功能跟你們的這樣的責任那另外我要請教了 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
23584.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
23590.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
今年我們一直在說去年的稅收超徵有高達3700億請問一下這個金額審計部合定了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
23595.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
23617.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
如果1、2年他的行政院還在辦結算他4月底會送到監察院監察院會交給審計部來作審所以還沒有辦合定嘛對不對我們到7月底才會審訊出來可是我告訴那個沈記長現在的這個行政院經濟部其實就已經偷跑 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
23618.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
23632.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
好為什麼偷跑呢因為4月1號昨天開始漲電價那麼他們要先確定行政院可以撥補給台電多少錢所以之前先宣布了撥補1000億 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
23634.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
23661.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
但是這個程序事實上不合相關的規定因為審計部還沒有針對稅收超徵沒有進行核定可是行政院先把這一千億先要撥補給台電所以這個部分這當然是屬於今年度的不是在我們今天在資議的這個諮詢的這個111年度可是我要請審計部能夠重視這個事情因為不能便宜行事 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
23662.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
23687.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
為了希望能夠再縮小台電電價的漲幅：然後確定這個稅收超車的撥補：所以事實上是違反相關規定我在這邊直接的先跟那個沈記長先做這樣的一個說明另外我想請問沈記長前瞻金屬建設現在進入就是你們現在核定是第三期 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
23688.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
23702.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
我看到你們報告裡面也特別提到對於地方財政的一個壓力如果以我們現在地方財政一期、二期、三期因為我們當時就在講因為前瞻 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
23704.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
23724.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
八千八百億事實上呢我們的地方政府要負擔一半所以對地方政府的財政來講是一個非常大的負擔所以果不其然你看到你們今天的審計報告裡面第一期我們地方政府的自籌經費的比例是89% |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
23726.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
23752.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
到了第二期只剩下84%第三期更是後繼無力只剩下65%而你們合定的報告裡面特別有提到就是第一期到第三期現在我們地方政府配合前瞻基礎建設那麼所有編列的預算只佔中央合定自籌經費的33.33%就是1%的意思了 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
23756.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
23758.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
對於地方的財政 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
23776.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
23794.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
我們審計部看到的相關報告是不是會真的感受到地方財政要補足潛在基礎建設要求的自籌經費事實上是已經有後立無期的狀況我們有把這個意見送請行政院去注意這個情況是 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
23796.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
23813.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
那他們有任何的改善嗎?這個經費全部編下去啊地方就要有配合款啊他們是說以後在核定計畫的時候他們會注意到這件事情我覺得啊已經到三期了現在才讓這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
23815.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
23839.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
行政院感受到這些地方財政的辛苦第一個地方財政當然會希望你最好中央多補一點錢給我對不對我不希望我自己自愁壓力非常非常的重而且你補助款就如同我這邊講因為我去年我們討論很多就不在這邊浪費時間你們補助款也有大小眼啊對不對台幣是這麼少然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
23840.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
23861.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
高雄那麼多我不要講我到時候我還會我還在查就是我們將來的治水預算還在大小眼喔還在大小眼就是你今天不能夠中央第一個你不能不公平不均第二個你不要拖累地方讓地方的財政負擔過重 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
23862.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
23874.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
所以我覺得未來不管是特別預算也好或者是公務預算我覺得我們審計不到本於這樣的原則好不好另外有一個在你們特別提到我覺得蠻重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
23875.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
23896.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
就是對於國防部我們對美的軍購事實上金額非常非常龐大也編列了大筆的特別預算去採購但是呢我們國防部因為很大方台灣很大方對於美國的軍購我們都是用現金支付這個我想沈機長應該知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
23898.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
23925.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
可是問題來了你現金支付之後有一些他的合約會中止別說我用現金支付準備金可是問題是合約中止你就應該還給我可是以你們在審計部的報告裡面到111年度這還不含112或到現在已經合約中止但是呢我們停滯在美國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
23927.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
23937.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
這個準備金就高達新台幣118億照理說美方應該結案之後退還給台灣但是他沒有退還回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
23938.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
23960.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
那所以現在現在我們又會未來還是要繼續去買軍購那這個問題怎麼解決呢這一百一十八億啊我覺得要去要回來有他的難處可是未來我們還是這樣我們未來還是傻傻的去付這個現金然後呢合約中止他還是不退給你這一百一十八億以後不知道會不會變兩百億三百億四百億五百億的下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
23961.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
23984.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
所以其實你們有要求國防部要求他們用單保信用賺取代現金因為你們其實查得蠻清楚因為你們去查了美國的相關的軍售的相關的他的辦法裡面他是可以接受用單保信用賺對不對可是我們軍方沒有就是這樣傻傻的一直付現金然後錢也要不回來那我想請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
23986.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
24011.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
沈記長,你們這個部分有沒有追蹤呢?國防部說,好啊,那我們就開始來研究啊。那麼112年度他們有用嗎?今年度他們有用嗎?下一年度,我們幾乎每年都要跟美國去買軍之獸啊。這些我們如果是傻傻的一直用現金,那麼以後還不曉得有多少idol在美國都要不回來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
24012.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
24033.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
所以沈記長這個部分因為這裡面非常非常細我也希望審計部能夠繼續的去盯緊軍方督導國防部不要再做冤大頭啦如果美國可以接受擔保信用狀取代現金我們為什麼不做更何況其實呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
24036.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
24064.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
在你們的報告裏面後來我才看到其實狀況非常嚴重這也是你們報告裏面除了那118億之外我們還有這個時間比較久也100年度之前我們都已經結會給美方但是呢美方事實上這裏面有一些他要結一塊也是要還給我們的高達多少錢他沒有還給我們你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
24067.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
24091.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
50億所以我剛要講118億加50億你看光是在111年度之前就有超過160億應該還給我們而沒有還給我們我們現在都比較關切的是你軍購你應該交給我們武器你延宕對不對我們現在大部分大家都在關心這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
24092.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
24119.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
可是大家很少去關心所以我也很高興我也很肯定省進部注意到這個問題我們錢應該要回來卻沒有要回來我剛才講了合約中止就應該把準備金還給我沒有還給我高達118億還有就是我已經跟你都結親可是這有一些部分你的錢要還給我的也沒有還給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
24121.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
24144.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
軍方都無力去討錢捏碰到美國沒有能力去討錢所以第一個部分你們已經給國防部一個指引說請你用擔保信用狀不要再用現金了第二部分那麼現在自存美方的這個結餘款50億這也應該要督促軍方要把它討回來可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
24145.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
24172.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
報告委員 那個50億我們已經要回來了目前就要回來了嗎這是100年度以前的對不對都要回來了對 118億的這個我們也要他趕快和美國談注意剛剛講的擔保信用帳那一個部分美方希望是用它美國的我們希望用我們那個兆豐這個方面所以這邊這個方面還在談 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
24173.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
24199.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
所以他美方希望是用美國的銀行用他美國準備銀行的那我們是希望用我們國內的信用狀所以兩方還在做這方面的討論這個要盯他們要盡快好不好不要再傻傻用現金了好不好但要現金都要不回來好另外有一個議題也請審計部呢也是幫忙能夠去盯最近呢我們食安聯環報 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
24201.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
24213.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
那麼大家都在檢討說不管是我們一年編列食安的預算大概一年將近100億或者前瞻編列食安的部分大概400億超過400億那為什麼這麼多的預算還會食安連環保 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
24219.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
24241.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
包括這些我們要興建國家級的實驗大樓我們要對邊際查驗快速通關的管理系統我們要增加我們的檢驗能量BRABRABRA一大堆都要錢那麼錢都給了碰到食安怎麼會去擋食安的錢呢可是問題是最近就發生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
24243.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
24264.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
我們要做食安大樓我們要擴增我們的檢驗的量呢那最近大家討論最多的米酵菌栓那麼竟然發現整個衛福部剛開始呢他們急得跟熱鍋上螞蟻一樣為什麼他們沒有標準品 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
24264.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
24289.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
因為你到去檢驗你必須要有標準品後來呢是彰化基督教醫院來救命啊他說我們有提供給衛福部所以大家就質疑為什麼一個衛福部你比不上一個彰化基督教醫院那麼後來我們也發現這些有關於一些所謂的硬體建設比如說他要蓋什麼國家級實驗大樓、食安大樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
24291.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
24316.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
結果出現了他的執行率偏低的問題對不對對這個因為他第一期就編了到現在還沒有進度到現在已經順利當時是幾次的流標了現在已經進度已經快百分之二十了到現在百分之二十對到現在才百分之二十因為前幾次都是挖爆不出氣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
24317.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
24334.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
所以沈議長你會不會覺得這個要錢急吼吼然後呢等到執行的部分然後要這個20多億要去蓋大樓我就講嘛食安的預算沒有人敢擋它結果呢現在呢它的執行率 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
24335.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
24363.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
就是因為說要說什麼合約期程啦跨年度啦要保留就是保留預算他保留他跟你們就是設計保留預算繼續執行所以這個部分到目前只有20%所以沈記長你會不會覺得在整個這麼重要的一環整個前瞻基礎建設裡面食安難道不是很重要的一環嗎那你會不會覺得這個預算真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
24364.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
24366.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
謝謝王委員、洪威樂詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
24392.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
24396.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
接下來我們請登記第14號羅委員美玲詢問謝謝主席有請審計長再請陳審計長備詢羅委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
24420.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
24442.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
審計長好辛苦了就如我們今天的審計報告所提到我們審計部的主要的這個職責呢就是督促政府呢進行良善治理實現這個國家永續的這個發展所以審計部呢對一些民生等重大議題呢都納入了主要的查核的這個要點可是本席發現就是說有關這個族群的議題審計 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
24444.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
24458.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
這裏是比較少在碰觸的比如說有關這個新住民的這個議題那本期我發現就是說有關於新住民發展基金移民署裏面有個新住民發展基金已經連續兩年連續兩年出現這個短處的這個狀況而且是連續兩年都必須以用以前的資金餘額來做這個支應 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
24467.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
24484.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
這部分可能這審計部應該要特別來做留意的那當然本席很能夠理解為什麼會出現這個短處的這現象比如說像基金的使用是更趨這個多元化比如說新住民跟新住民二代的這個賠利也好或是特殊境遇的這個補助甚至新住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
24485.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
24485.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
是來自於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
24504.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
24525.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
房地合一稅或是宜貞稅或是菸捐等等可是菸稅等等可是新住民發展的發展基金的財源它是屬於這個公務預算所以我們在想說它財源的不夠多元這部分的話是不是說審計部在做查核的部分這個部分可能需要審計部來去做了解這部分的話這個審計長這邊有沒有怎麼樣的建議嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
24529.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
24533.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
新住民新住民也算我們的再相對向是弱勢他的新住民基金其實要的也不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
24545.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
24561.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
我們有兩兆快三兆的那個財源他只是要幾億我的立場是希望行政院或者相關編列預算的部門都給他們充足的資源來保障這些弱勢的我很肯對沈縣長您的回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
24569.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
24595.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
我非常肯定尤其是連續兩年都已經有這個短處的這個現象所以說我在希望說行政院這一部分也聽到審計長的這個回應就是非常友善的回應就是說有關於這個預算規模的部分可以來增加那再來我們有看到就是說雖然說我們新竹發展基金這個預算有短處的這個現象可是我們發現說它其實部分有些業務其實執行率不是那麼的好是不佳的 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
24596.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
24608.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
例如我們剛才這報告裏面有提到說我們對於少子女化對策對策計劃裏面截至112年底那行政院其實已經投入了3688億的經費包含了這個幼兒的托育 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
24612.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
24630.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
可是我們發現這個新住民發展基金裡面他這個辦理新住民家庭成長及子女托育多元文化計劃裡面的其實他的執行率的112年度其實只有64.34%所以這部分的話可能也是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
24631.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
24660.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
省紀部應該要去了解的這個部分因為新住民每一年有將近兩萬人來到台灣這個大家庭我想這個托育的需求絕對是有的可是我們發現說這部分他們的這執行率呢比我們想像中的還要低很多所以我想所以我在想說這部分省紀部是不是也應該要在查核的時候發現這個問題到底這個部分為什麼是執行率是如這比我們想像中的還要低很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
24661.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
24677.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
我們會再來督促列正部對這方面加強因為新住民這一個部分我們要有一個給他一個友善的環境我們會來努力是謝謝今天沈記長很快速跟這個肯定的這個支持所以我在想說 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
24678.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
24698.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
新住民,尤其是新住民來到台灣,如果含第二代的話,其實已經超過百萬人了。我想他們的這個敬意也好,福利也好,都是我們中央政府必須要來重視的。那我也不希望就是說,因為他可能是屬於比較少數的族群,那 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
24699.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
24721.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
中央對這部分會比較忽略那尤其是審計部因為我從你們的報告裡面比較少看到有關你這個新住民這些議題那當然可能他是屬於所有民生議題裡面的其中的一部分並沒有特別的拿出來就是來做一個一個審核可是我們覺得說其實其實這很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
24721.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
24738.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
都很重要尤其現在新住民二代進入到大專院校目前的這個學生有高達9萬人那如果說這些孩子能夠在國家好好的培育之下都是國家未來很重要的助力尤其是新住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
24738.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
24753.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
二代我也希望說在新住民發展基金這部分如果我們真的能夠增加這個預算規模的話那這個部分的話未來對於這孩子的就學也好就業也好我覺得都有很大的這個幫助尤其是獎助學金的補助方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
24754.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
24769.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
所以我今天真的很謝謝我們我們省計長今天一個友善的這個回應那再來呢我們就是在發現這個他們這公共托育的這部分的執行率不是很佳的情況還發現另外一個問題那就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
24772.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
24789.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
新住民的公共托育呢其實還有一些比較特殊的這個需求我們有很多新住民媽媽其實在語言方面的可能是會比較有問題可以對中文比較不熟悉他們可能需要的這個幼兒的保母可能在語言方面要有些特殊 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
24791.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
24804.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我們在盤點我們全國22個縣市呢其實讓我們發現說新住民的公共托育這部分不是那麼的友善這可能也是我們政府需要去來加油督促的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
24805.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
24811.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
新北市是全國新住民人數最多的那可收託一般幼兒的保母人數有2819人 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
24822.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
24851.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
那當然新住民的小孩也可以送到這個一般的保姆那邊去做托育可是我剛剛有提到就是說新住民媽媽可能在語言方面有所要求他們可能要的就是這個這個保姆也許他必須要有新住民的這個背景合格的這個保姆那比如說我們在新北市來講好了2819位可收托一般幼兒之保姆可是呢可收托新住民幼兒的保姆呢只有4位 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
24852.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
24870.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
只有四位那台北市也是一樣2317可收託一般幼兒的保姆人數可是呢我們卻只有三位可收託新住民幼兒制保姆所以比例是非常非常的低所以我們說我們在這個托育這部分呢政府呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
24871.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
24899.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
投入了很多的這個經費可是我們在新住民幼兒保姆這個部分我們發現是不太友善的那這個友善這個不友善來自於哪裡可能我們並沒有很積極的去培育新住民去考取合格的保姆執照等等所以衍生出像列都列都可收託新住民幼兒之保姆人數只有個位數那甚至有些縣市像新竹縣苗栗縣南投縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
24901.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
24916.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
雲林、嘉義、台東、花蓮、澎湖、基隆市、嘉義市、連江巷、金門縣是掛零的?如果新住民的媽媽想要找一個合格的保姆懂得自己國家的語言的這些縣市一個都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
24917.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
24931.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
一個都沒有所以我想說在托育的環境方面在新住民來講比較不友善所以這部分的話我們也希望審計部這邊來重視跟相關的單位來做一個討論這部分我們怎麼來做提升審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
24933.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
24961.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
從委員在這些執行的資料裡面看我們好像忽略了新住民的這一塊的一個照顧所以剛剛我有講道歉加強實際上我必須要說如果說完全的忽略說實在良心上我也不能這麼說其實我們有很多對有益於新住民的政策可是某些部分確確實實是忽略了像這托育的部分就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
24962.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
24985.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
所以剛剛委員講我們把那個新住民資金把它加大再來就把這些像這種的因為你夠限時都零星就統一由這些內政部的這些這個單位主責單位來統一把它來做我們是希望幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
24986.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
24998.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
把這個委員發現的這些問題我們一塊一塊把它補上就是說有忽略到的地方的一部分把它補上我們會來請內政部相關單位對這個方面加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
25003.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
25019.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
OK很謝謝沈機長那另外還有一個還有時間我還要再提另外一個是跟教育有關的教育部在109年12月7號呢我們訂定發布了新住民就讀大學辦法主要是要讓我們新住民的有更 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
25019.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
25047.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
有善多元的這個升學的這個管道其實利益是非常良善的可是這個辦法施行到現在已經有三年了這個整個狀況可以說是慘不忍睹這部分可能我之後還是得要跟這個教育部來做一個探討呃沈區長您可以看一下我們這個新住民就讀大學辦法連續兩年的錄取人數是多低呢我們先看111學年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
25049.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
25067.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
111學年度的我們先挑一下學士四年制日間學士班全國所有的大專院校所開出來的招生名額有1900人結果報名的有多少人呢25人入取多少人呢6人註冊人數有3人 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
25070.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
25093.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
那四年制的進修學士班招生人數招生名額是346人報名人數兩個錄取人數是一個那不管那再來還有碩士班博士班是更不用說了那個成績真的那個招生的人數甚至還掛零那112年呢更慘了112年學士班四年制日間學士班 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
25094.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
25116.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
招生人數增加到1910人﹐可是報名人數只有3人﹐入取人數3人﹐註冊3人﹐好像諸如此類的﹐像﹐你說政府有沒有做﹐有啊﹐都有做﹐有訂立了這些的這個政策﹐可是執行率真的是非常非常的差﹐到底問題出在哪裡呢﹐其實我們有發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
25119.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
25143.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
我們有發現說有啊你問教育部有啊我們都有公告在大學大學的這個這個網站啊公告全部都有啊可是問題是新住民就不知道說有哪些學校他根本不知道你台灣有哪些學校就算他想要升學想要去進修他也不知道哪些學校有哪些科系所以表示說這些資訊的管道出了問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
25145.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
25160.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
就是就是教育部他擬定的這些辦法好大學大學各大專院校確確實實有去做了可是這些資訊如何下放到這個基層的新住民好像這個中間的管道就斷掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
25161.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
25189.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
如果本席沒有在這裡提的話搞不好我們省級長還不了解目前這種狀況謝謝委員提出這個問題這個租姓不對稱或者是造成這個整個族型落差我的想法也是和委員一樣應該就直接看看哪些的新知名的小孩已經要就讀大學了就直接告訴他讓他得到第一手的租姓省級長你誤會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
25189.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
25212.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
我講的是新住民不是新住民是新住民新住民其實台灣的政府很有心想要提升新住民的教育程度或是升學的這個管道所以我們是有比照橋外生外掛2%的方式讓新住民去就學而且是免於考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
25213.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
25232.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
好就是不用學測的情況之下他可以去報報考可是問題是問題是新住民並不知道有這些就學的管道並不知道有這些就學的資訊覺得非常的可惜不管你所有的大學大專院校開了多少的這個科系 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
25233.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
25248.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
新住民就是不知道那我們像過去一年像上去年我在全國各地辦了十幾將近二十場的這個新住民的座談我每次就說你們知不知道說哪學校有哪些科系你們可以去去就讀嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
25249.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
25261.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
幾乎是百分之百告訴我說我們不知道我們現在的問題就是說中央做上面做上面中央做中央的可是基層完全感受不到也接受不到這個訊息這才是問題所在 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
25265.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
25290.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
這才是問題所在所以本期如果說新住民為什麼我說族群的問題審計部可能比較少去碰觸到可能我們都是一些比較大的議題一些民生的議題可是我們發現說新住民的議題也很重要啊來到台灣其實很希望在台灣落地生跟適應台灣的這個生活那包含能夠在這裡順利就學就業可是不管上面做了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
25290.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
25314.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
可是很多新住民都無感無感來自於哪裡不知道這個資訊是從哪裡來的他們也不知道說原來我可以到大學去念書原來某某大學有這個我所向我想要去念的科系可是這些資訊怎麼要下放給新住民我想這可能就是我們審計部要跟教育部來做一個探討的是咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
25315.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
25337.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
這個部分委員是這樣我們應該解決這個不是太難的問題教育部的各大誰可以把它收集好好謝謝羅委員美玲的質詢謝謝陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第15號張委員志倫質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
25353.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
25357.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
主席好各位委員各位委員大家好是不是有請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長對選 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
25366.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
25395.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
張委員好沈記長你好在質詢之前我對沈記長還有我們審計部的團隊先給予高度的肯定因為跟沈記長報告本席是在立法院現在唯一一位具有財經就是唯一一位具有會計師身份執照的委員我過去在擔任會計師的業務的時候我也是常去企業做審計的工作所以我非常知道說做審計業務相對的困難跟辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
25395.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
25415.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
有時候都要加班加到很晚而且還要寫這麼多的建議報告也是第一個要具備勇氣那第二個也要具備讓民眾知道真相那我所以在這邊資訊之前先給我們省紀長跟我們省紀部所有的官員一個高度的肯定謝謝謝謝委員委員很專業的請多主導 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
25418.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
25438.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
好那接下來我就要請教有關於沈記長現在我們民生民眾相對相對關注相當大的議題就是4月1號就是昨天我們電價上漲調整幅度11%不管是民生工業全面調漲那以及現在我們很多民眾擔心的點就是現在電價調漲以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
25440.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
25466.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
未來物價會不會全面來調漲那其實我們本席認為企業應該要獲利那不管開源跟節流以一般的企業的經營角度來講面對成本上漲產品售價的調整是因應的做法不過相對於我們國營的企業有台電、中油、台水、台糖等企業當在調漲它的售價的時候應該顧及民生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
25467.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
25481.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
需求跟任務要謹慎的來處理那請教沈機長第一個問題剛剛我提到這些台電、中油、台水、台糖等國營企業就您的認為哪一家的企業虧損的最嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
25484.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
25504.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
112年有5家虧損其中台電虧損了1985億元其中有政府還彌補了它500億如果不彌補500億它虧了2485億元沒錯 沈局長非常專業這就是我今天要提的其實台電它的能源政策是否出了問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
25506.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
25528.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
本席跟沈記長報告這家台電它的公司它的毛利率是負百分之三十它的淨利率負到百分之四十它負債比高達九十八趴以一家企業而言它的繼續經營假設我覺得都非常有問題那也跟沈記長報告現在台灣的能源政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
25529.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
25551.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
想不到在台灣現在蔡英文政府說要推展綠電的時候我們的火力發電居然佔超過80%過去政府對台電的補助基本上已經達到了4500億在蔡英文政府執政下台電也連續包含這是4月1號連續調整了三次的電費調整幅度35% |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
25558.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
25576.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
所以跟沈記長請問請問台電他是不是有繼續經營假設會不會有未來沒有辦法繼續經營的疑慮他是一個國營事業政府會負最後的責任因為我們也不容台電有任何散失或者任何狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
25577.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
25590.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
所以因為它影響到我們國家很重大所以我們這個部分我們是希望台電能夠強化經營體質加強開業節流慢慢慢慢把它整個體質改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
25591.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
25602.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
好 謝謝沈機長就本席了解因為111年的確當時這個國際燃油價格是有些上漲可是就像我剛剛本席跟您報告的在112年、113年其實國際燃料的價格其實有下跌的趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
25608.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
25628.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
那所以我本席希望說在你明年112年的審計報告的時候千萬不要幫台電背書說國際燃油的價格是下跌造成台電的虧損本席大膽建議是不是可以寫因為政府的錯誤的能源政策因為剛剛本席有給你報告80%變成火力發電以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
25631.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
25655.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
我建議我們審計部要請我們政府好好來檢討台電的採購契約是否有些採購綠電的問題是否已經有不合時宜的部分就像我們去年本席一直在跟很多的我們的委員跟民眾在講從過去到現在一直民眾一直有一個想法而且這也是事實就是台電賺寶綠電虧損全民漲電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
25661.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
25676.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
請問我們審計長剛我講的我們明年度本席有給你建議是不是我們在我們審計報告裡面可以加注政府的出入能源政策造成台電虧損以及台電以及政府應該來協助台電檢討它有關於相對的綠電的採購契約 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
25678.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
25705.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
向委員報告,我們委員當過會計師,我們審計就出去審核意見,是要看看我們的審計發現那當然了,能源這一個,再生能源這一個部分,售價是比那個成本,買的成本是低了,但是他的所有的成本,除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
25706.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
25717.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
合能和水利以外都高於售價,成本都高於售價所以他是如果這樣下去他的經營會比較相當的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
25721.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
25749.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
好 謝謝沈記長您剛剛有提出的重點就是說無論剛剛本席跟您報告漲電價漲的幅度多少或是政府補助台電的金額4500億這麼高還是沒有辦法抑制台電的虧損所以這是一個相當大的問題所以本席在這邊也希望說未來我們要好好來檢討這個台電尤其剛剛我本席跟你報告綠電的一個問題那最近本席也發現到一件事情也希望沈記長可以一起來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
25751.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
25768.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
現在聽說私人企業有考慮有直接賣電給一些大型的私人的綠電公司有考慮要直接賣電給一些大型的企業來讓這些大型企業可以買到綠電本席希望可以幫台電或幫政府來開源 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
25769.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
25786.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
所以本席在這邊建議是不是未來這些私人企業這些私人綠電公司在賣給大企業的時候台電應該要用這個收取電網使用費就是什麼並網費用的概念讓台電的虧損可以來有些的彌補 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
25788.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
25808.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
沈議長知道這些事情嗎我有看到這樣的一個報導這個是當然你經過台電的電網這個因為電網的整個建設也要相當的成本使用到這裡當然使用者互惠這也一樣的他 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
25810.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
25836.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
民間能夠賣給大企業民間的發電賣給大企業他就可以少收購這些也是一種解決的方式那政府賣綠電是不是有也可以考慮民間的這種綠電的做法所以我們一直希望台電加強開源節流或者強化經營體制 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
25839.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
25859.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
好 謝謝沈記長就是需要說明年的審計報告不要看到說就是說審計部寫這個國際燃油價格下跌倒成台電虧損這邊還是要拜託沈記長幫忙以及我在在看這個台電的這個資產負債表的時候我居然看到台電居然有一個非常龐大的資產2800億是當時合適的興建費用那請教我們沈記長這邊對你來講這個合適的2800億 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
25866.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
25886.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
的資產到底是資產還是負債因為就本席瞭解一個資產這麼龐大2800億可是基本上他的合適的建造已經廢掉了而且他已經沒有辦法再幫台灣產生出更多的電力基本未來還需要非常龐大的金額來去做後續廚藝的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
25887.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
25896.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
那現在帳列2800億的資產是否有是否應該來去做一個價值的減損的部分的討論以及這樣價值減損的部分會不會造成台電未來虧損更嚴重那當時現在為什麼不做台電核市場這個資產減損的原因為何這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
25909.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
25931.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
我們也有提出這樣的一個和委員剛所講的提出這樣的審計意見經濟部給我們的答覆是他們還在做整個合適租產的一個怎麼樣再應用的一個評估等評估定案了以後我們會做要求他依照公認的會計原理原則來做相關的評價 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
25932.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
25949.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
好 謝謝沈記長本席這邊要提醒沈記長根據蔡英文政府講的2025非核家園照理蔡英文政府的講法應該明年這些兩千多億的資產就應該歸零所以這點我是要跟您報告的那當時我也跟沈記長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
25951.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
25978.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
經濟部這邊有說有一個資產管理維護計畫其實從106年就已經跟審計部這邊報告說他要來評估已經評估了8年都沒有結論所以我本席在這邊也要大膽這個建議審計長已經拖了8年了已經夠久了那以審計部你沒有權利把這個事情交給監察院來去做一個審議是否這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
25981.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
25987.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
讓台灣人民會有個錯誤的想法說其實台電有2800億這麼大的資產其實這個資產是一點價值都沒有的所以這邊要拜託沈記長來幫忙我們可以來評估考慮好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
25997.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
26021.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
好這邊就是我簡單對台電的部分這個是真的要拜託沈記長來協助因為不然台電的這個負債以及當官資產的減損如果不讓國人知道他真正的情況未來等到一次直接認列的時候會造成台電及國家重大的負擔第二個我想要請教沈記長的就是國人他所注重的就是我們國家負債的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
26022.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
26050.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
請教沈記長就您的看法現在我們全台灣整體中央的負債是不是接近五兆已經到五兆我們111年度的結算出來是五兆六千將近五兆六千九百多億謝謝那今年已經到了五兆多以台灣兩千三百萬人來算每一個人的平均負債大概是二十五萬左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
26051.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
26079.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
那這邊要跟這個省紀長報告現在我們國人也是最近我們立法院正在討論的就是有關於特別預算的問題那我覺得省紀部在這邊表現得非常的勇敢因為省紀部在他的這個決算報告說也有寫說107年、108年及111年我們的政府的稅出稅入是為騰餘的其他年度皆為短促顧名思義就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
26080.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
26099.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
政府的錢都不夠用,尤其112年的儲蓄高達6190億,主要就是因為政府常年制定以特別條例方式編列特別預算,稅出規模龐大以及沒有籌措稅入裁員以及多仰賴債務之應。 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
26101.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
26128.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
所以沈議長這邊你表現我認為你本就是本席認為你你要把這個問題給講出來就是蔡英文政府在執政這8年運用了非常多特別預算而且這個特別預算他是可以規避我們一般來認列台灣的政府的債務上限那本席這邊有一個資料蔡英文政府在編了特別預算的時候到底讓台灣社會增加多少負債 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
26134.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
26157.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
能講這本資料嗎我收到的資料好像兩張如果到110因為我們是這樣那個剛剛講是五兆六千九百七十七億減掉當時他接任105年接任的時候是實際債務是五千三百多在111年是增加了四千兩百億可是跟省紀長報告我這邊收到的資料好像比這個數字高很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
26159.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
26185.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
所以會後沒關係我再跟審計長請教一下我講的是我們現在的實際債務已有所以意思就是說他有特別預算的部分有去做償還的部分他都會滾進這個實際他如果去集借會滾進這個實際債務已有裡面好那接下來還是國人比較擔心的就是說政府的負債部分因為你在審計報告中有特別提出其實政府有一些是 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
26188.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
26206.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
沒有略在我們的國家的負債當中就是屬於所謂俗稱的叫做潛在負債裡面的金額高達20億主要包含的金額就是勞保基金15億的負債以及我們的軍公教人員的退休金的負債裡面的金額就是高達了將近要20億那以 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
26208.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
26237.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
就本席來算我們全台灣國人2300萬人算起來每一個人的負債會再增加75萬所以負債可能每個人平均會增加到100萬我覺得這是全台灣人民想要去了解的那當然本席知道說這依照國際的一些編制準則這是不需要列在我們一般的政府預算裡面那可是我看審計長那麼認真每年在審計報告中重複的去提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
26240.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
26253.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
這些潛藏負債的問題尤其這個勞保基金他的負債將近達13到15兆那這個部分我請教沈記長你有什麼方法來解決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
26256.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
26270.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
這個謝謝委員我們會提出來因為透明是很重要在我們的損濟的一個立場是很重要所以我們會把它提出來那勞保的這一個塊因為我們也希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
26308.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
26308.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
26320.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
26337.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
謝謝張委員致輪的質詢也謝謝陳審計長的備詢報告院會中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案之諮詢均已詢答完畢做以下之決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
26338.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
26353.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
一、中華民國111年度中央政府總預算計附屬單位決算及中計表審核報告。二、中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第三期特別決算審核報告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
26355.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
26372.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
中華民國110年度至111年度及中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30日等案交財政委員會會同有關委員審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
26386.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
26407.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
將各委員發言記錄及書面諮詢函送審計部,請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆。三,已提出之書面諮詢尚未登載公報者,一律補刊。繼續處理復議案,請議事人員宣讀議案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
26410.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
26432.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
本院委員黃建豪等22人針對第一會期第6次會議報告事項第1、8、2案提出附議請公決案宣讀完畢本案作以下決定令定期處理請議事人員宣讀第二案本院民進黨黨團針對第11屆第一會期第6次會議議事日程報告事項第103案 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
26437.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
26451.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
及第108案院會所作決定提出覆議請供決案宣讀完畢本案作以下決定令定期處理報告院會本次會議進行到此為止現在散會 |