| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01ebf86bd82083609091ccc16fe9aa21e45dd5fe0ad21242b44eee46cb88a106288fdc86b9d8d4b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:45:57 - 13:01:05 |
| 影片長度 |
908 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「勞動部勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署事件及如何完善申訴管道之具體策進作為及期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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好謝謝張偉部長如果好就請部長了 |
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13.154 |
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部長部長好部長辛苦了你以為說命代打上陣但我沒相信你一定可以在勞動部裡封出一支漂亮的權威打漂亮的權威打前面要再加改革改革的權威打也要肯定你的勇氣在這個事件之後 |
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來接這個部長,所以要打出一個漂亮的全壘打,漂亮改革的全壘打。我想大家關注的就一件事情,就是11月19號北分署的調查報告。我想剛剛很多委員都有給你垂詢過了,但你的答覆我還是希望要很明確,因為畢竟已經兩個禮拜了。 |
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不管怎麼樣卓院長也特別在那個當下只是要一個星期所以我是覺得依照你我們過去同事這樣的一個認識跟知道你做事情的積極度我想應該 |
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跟那個留言報告齁其實可以不要加那個嗎?好請說 |
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103.104 |
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其實我們非常知道現在大家對外界最勞動部最關注的其實就是重啟調查的調查報告從上個禮拜我們開始做這個重啟調查的作業準備到這個禮拜開始實質的訪談調查包括相關的報告的撰寫到下禮拜出來我可以跟委員說其實這裡面沒有一天待滿每天都有進度而且其實是盯得很緊的但確實在這個案件上面涉及到的層面跟要訪談的對象比較廣 |
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132.47 |
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所以我們也增加了一些約詢的 |
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136.578 |
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164.957 |
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對﹖ |
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165.097 |
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193.436 |
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坦白說既然行政院邀請你來當勞動部的部長我想也應該要給你有一些緩衝跟足夠的時間但是我坦白說那是卓院長下令的一星期其實是有某種程度的問題存在但是那也是展現一個破例也不希望說我們在公部門體系有這樣的霸凌的事件 |
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195.817 |
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但是既然霸凌不是一件兩件不是一天兩天去聯繫起來的事情怎麼有可能說什麼就一個星期內調查完成這個我就覺得原本就有問題的存在了啦因為尤其是北分署這個案件他真的目前看到的狀況他真的看起來不是只是這個謝前分署長對於這個吳姓公務員 |
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221.943 |
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238.028 |
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各案式的作為甚至是在整個北分署裡面其實是一個普遍性的不當管理的作為所以他確實牽涉到的層面比較廣那我們就也在這個部分上讓行政院都有了解所以在溝通期程上面都讓他們知道 |
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238.308 |
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261.897 |
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好啦我知道我也願意給部長時間啦反正這種事情調查原本就是要非常公正公平公開然後詳細的完整性的他才有辦法去呈現出來讓社會大眾可以去大家來做檢視嘛對不對要進得起檢視就更加像現在那個狀況在發生嘛但是部長你看啦從北分署開始海科館機關署樹花部 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
262.737 |
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275.748 |
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工部門的這個職場一直在傳出霸凌的事件尤其幾乎都是上對下的管理過當的問題幾乎是這樣所以部長你認為這個職場霸凌的事件臺灣是不是應該有一個專門的法規來進行嚇阻 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
278.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
279.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
295.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
321.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
其實委員建議的沒有錯現在我們在職安法裡面的這個第6條之3其實的定義是非常非常寬鬆的所以在直接操作的執行上會有很多界定上面的問題所以現在我們當然馬上就在在在做這個資產防治霸凌防治法制化的工作那其實現在禮拜一的時候其實就邀專家學者來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
323.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
351.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
不管是現在有些人提議是要專法或者是要專章我坦白說我自己也覺得恐怕不是只是單修那個第6條之2或第6條之3單一條就可以解決這個事情這是一個蠻大的修法工程但是至於是要走專法還是專章或者什麼這個事情我們我是持開放的態度但現在還在跟專家學的討論中但是絕對不會我認為絕對不會只是修那一條而已因為那絕對是不夠的就機制建立來說一定是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
352.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
382.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
對阿所以當時責任法通過之後大家非常高興好像好像什麼事情都一念而解了齁那其實回過頭來再檢視這個法律尤其針對霸凌的這定義阿坦白講也很難透過這個法律去明確的目前的法規目前的法條阿所以這個就是要來討論要來修正嘛齁那但是有一些啦齁有一些公部門有一連串的這個霸凌事件其實你你我們可以察覺到這些相關的單位人有一定有異常的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
382.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
384.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
但是當時為什麼都沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
407.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
409.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
當時這樣的離職率這麼嚴重了為什麼貴部都不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
414.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
438.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以這個質疑已有定某個是可以參考的一些依據但怎麼都沒有去使用所以有時候也不是只有法律定好修好完整了我當然期待部長可以定出一個領先全球最好的一個這個防範這個職場霸凌的相關的法律出來對不對但是有時候法律定了如果不照這樣做不這樣依循的話定哪裡定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
439.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
461.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
就是在本部長裡面看到確實那個離職率而且甚至很多的我們公務人員他其實是就算是降調他都要走這當然是一個非常非常異常的狀況而且人員這麼大所以到底為什麼當時這個狀況人事的變動這麼大這麼異常沒有有提出更進一步的示警然後大家有一個比較從更上位的部分去解決我覺得這部分當然需要檢討對 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
462.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
482.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好了我還是期待部長可能就是要辛苦一點的短期之內看這個秀娃的一個範圍跟方向可能要給委員會來做一些參考大家共同一起來討論好不好最後最後一件事情部長知道EAP嗎?我知道員工協助方案嘛對不對那部長對這個事情有掌握嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
483.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
507.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
有,其實我們也是檢視了北分署EAP的狀況所以才會覺得其實可能只有EAP不夠所以現在才規劃了一個可以讓大家去外面找諮商資源的目前這個專案部長所講EAP不夠是指怎樣不夠?能不能明確講一點?我指的是說因為我去了北分署知道北分署現在整體的狀況恐怕EAP是不夠的我說因為北分署是一個蠻特殊的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
509.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
530.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以你現在是講說依照現在北部署的狀態其實EAP是不夠了來協助這些員工嘛對不對那你講這樣我就更擔心了我給部長看一張表好不好這個齁你覺得一個EAP對員工來講應該是要多少的這個預算規模才算合理我直接表上就把表秀出來給部長看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
531.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
547.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
是我們預算也就不講了講實際原額嘛你看勞動部是280員工協商是45萬然後花署221 23萬這個比例大家可以看差不多的人數當然減了50幾位啦但是經費是減了一半以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
548.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
563.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那再來 北溫署 75 剩下不到老化署的三分之一但是他的經費好像又一半多一點點再來 投足苗 82 14.5 然後中章投 117 更少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
564.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
564.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
部長﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
587.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
609.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你的評審﹚你的預估﹚你的經驗跟委員報告我們本部的員工協助方案是本部與所屬的就剛才有秀出來的這幾個單位我們是共同的一個員工協助方案那今年度我們是編了總共是180萬那明年我們是編230萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
612.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
630.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你沒事全被包給 全包 全包嘛對不對 全包 對阿 全包好 那一個平均是多少 全包那就更糟糕了喔 那個 劉遠其實我即便是230萬啦 坦白說我看到這個數字我都覺得是不足夠的啦 是嗎我覺得這沒有什麼好 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
631.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
646.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
好去找我其實就是不夠的但是我們當然會要來爭取更多的資源用在這個地方尤其是勞動部現在面對這麼大就是說內外的壓力的狀況之下很多員工其實在心理上面精神上面的張力特別大對 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
647 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
672.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
部長我要特別提到你有帶頭作用貴部有帶頭作用這個事情如果處理不好我追這個事情只有兩年我是上次總統我到五院還有各部會所以在員工的協助方案預算編不夠的沒有編的還是什麼放在什麼地方的我絕對不會放過我絕對會處理到底然後你現在這個是預算的原額跟實際的原額你沒有包括你的約聘顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
683.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
702.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
報告委員我們平均算起來每個人差不多一百一個人差不多五百其實跟委員報告本部的員工協助方案編列的預算是比其他的部會都是最高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
703.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
703.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
722.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
724.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
再看一個表表就好時間到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
745.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
753.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
勞工署你看所屬員工協助方案的人士109還有500多位110還有500多位11下降4261213148198這個是一個很奇怪的一個曲線走向 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
759.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
784.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個地方發生問題這個地方員工使用這個協助方案竟然是急速的下降是百分之六十百分之七十在下降那顯然員工協助方案在這個地方到底有沒有發揮起這個作用怎麼會剛好這兩年下降的如此之快有沒有掌握還是只有電話打去了其他都不關他們的事情了各位報告我們主要是用在那個次數的啦0800的一個次數 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
789.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
808.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個就次數阿方案的人次就等同次數阿是跟委員報告喔是這樣子的因為我們有去洽詢那個專業心理團隊齁他們從112年開始統計方式改變他們把那個0800打回去問預約紀錄跟確定行程這些拿掉因為他統計方式改變所以他打掉什麼對不起預約 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
809.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
838.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
就是他們0800的專線除了過去三年除了統計打進去的之外他連那個打回來問這個員工預約紀錄跟確定行程的限數都在前三年的統計裡面從112年他把這個統計數字拿掉所以你要跟我講這個表格算是正常的因為把那兩項拿掉之後下降這樣算是正常不是你跟我講這樣你這樣算不是很奇怪是因為統計方式改變這樣統計方式改變之後所以他這樣下降算是正常 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
839.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
861.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那個 對不對我想剛剛同仁解釋的事情是說這個變化的原因啦但我不會去說這個整體我把它叫做是正常啦可是這個變化解釋比較是這個變化的原因啦是因為統計方式的這個登記的變化這樣子可是整體來說跟委員報告我也是看了相關的數據以後才我們上禮拜才做了一個決定說 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
862.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
877.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
如果以現在的這個服務的能量跟方法恐怕不足以支應目前北分署的同仁現在這個階段的需求所以才做了一個專案的特別處理這樣好部長簡單簡單二要我們就做事情就明快一些第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
878.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
905.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
趕快檢視嘛我們的員工協助方案這樣到底夠不夠員工協助方案是要事前接觸員工啦對不是事後才再啟動要怎麼協助員工當然對好所以我們就全面檢視嘛好尤其是勞動部與生作者嘛對不對而且要帶同讓民間的帶頭一起來嘛所以是不是在本週五前提出這個員工協助方案的改善方案給委員會做參考可以嗎可以好謝謝好謝謝主席謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
906.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
907.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
謝謝劉建國委員 謝謝部長 |
| IVOD_ID |
157803 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157803 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-12 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-04T12:45:57+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-04T13:01:05+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |