| IVOD_ID |
15780 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15780 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
11 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-01T08:31:49+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-01T12:55:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:23:11 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcc4feebff739bc37a30e87a8aaf0819ae3be8d109af184be4fd685c285b18a2055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查
（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。
（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。
（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。
（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。
（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。
（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。
（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。
（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。
（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查
（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。
（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。
三、審查
（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。
（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。
【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【僅進行詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:49 - 12:55:00 |
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報告委員會初期委員10人已讀法定人數請主席宣布開會。好,我們現在開始開會。現在先進行報告事項,請宣讀上次會議議事錄。主席,來程序問題詢問。好,請說。在位置上還是到那裡?會議詢問是在位置上還是要到排演台? |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1842.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1850.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
在這裡就好了啦因為在這裡不知道是要坐還是要站啦好啦我想因為讓主席方便啦主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1852.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1873.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
謝謝昭偉安排有關於這麼重大的國會改革法案的詢答。那麼我們看到議程呢昭偉是預定在本週三進行公聽會。那公聽會的內容我也看到了如列了四項。那在這裡有兩點要請教於昭偉請教於主席。那麼這四點我看這裡面並沒有涵蓋到 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1876.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1877.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1893.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1913.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
其實這兩點都跟目前民進黨黨團版本當中我們對於調查權當中需為不實或涉有刑責的部分的相關規定那因為在提綱都沒有列進去所以我們希望這個公聽會的提綱盡量要能夠周延的涵蓋包括各黨團的版本那當然我說各黨團版本是民進黨有黨團版 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1920.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1941.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
至於目前我們今天手頭上有的是包括含蓋有民眾黨跟國民黨委員所提出的各種的版本我想這個部分我們希望第一個公聽會的提綱希望主席能夠在公聽會的提綱上要能夠涵蓋包括各黨團以及各黨委員所提出版本當中的要點問題這是第一個第二個關於公聽會的場次 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1946.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1946.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1963.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1987.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
其他各黨包括民主進步黨在本身的黨團也是利用黨團的名義也邀請了社會的學者專家來進行各種修憲版本的探討所以再次提出對於公聽會的場次應與充實內容應與充實場次應與增加第三個我特別要提到的就是海保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1988.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2004.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
在上週在本月內政委員會進行審查的時候,那時候招委的主席,當然主席的招委,高金柱美委員,對不起,不是,那時候的招委是另外是那個張宏祿張招委。 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2005.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2031.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
吳慶民吳昭偉那因為另外一位昭偉呢這個高經委員提出認為海保法至關重要因此呢他們在要求之後做成了決議加開五場的公聽會而且呢是關係到海保法原住民權益慎具的各部落去召開那在這裡呢想請主席齁能不能就這個部分的程序上的問題呢能夠來進行說明第一公聽會的提綱是否能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2034.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2059.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
覆蓋．盡可能覆蓋．包括各委員各黨團的版本的相關的不同要點．第二．關於公聽會的場次能否卓與增加．第三．是否可以比照海保法在上週委員會所作成的決議．為了尊重各黨各委員的版本．所以呢還加開了公聽會以備周延．以上而來就較於我們主席在程序上的一個意見． |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2060.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2083.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
好,謝謝中召委有關第一個問題第一個問題就是我們公聽會的那個事項是不是要是不是有所遺漏那這個部分待會我待會我會了解一下看看是不是有需要補充如果有必要的話那我們再來做修正如果有必要的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2084.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2084.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2098.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2098.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2117.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2142.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
十幾年前就有人一直提出來包括 2016貴黨也有非常多的法案都提過那社會上面呢很多學者學者對於這個東西也都有相關的文獻那也開過很多在民間也開過很多類似的這種研討會所以我認為說公聽會的部分是不需要再繼續加開公聽會的部分不需要繼續加開 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2144.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2164.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那今天整個條文的審查從上上週五開始我們把議程變更到今天我們來那個今天我們也不是直接就做條文的審查一直到下週三我們召開公聽會其實我都很多不好意思本週三 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2165.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2166.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
五（委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2190.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2190.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2209.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2237.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
對於這個國會改革在憲政上面的想法以及在法律上面的想法我覺得有非常多的學者專家他們都有提出相關的報告都有很多研究報告那這段時間我也看了很多那各位也可以有興趣也可以就這個部分去看那我想啦就是我們還是要一步一步push整個程序在進行那這個是以上是我這邊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2238.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2242.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
做法。好,那是那個司要委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2244.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2271.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
謝謝昭薇辛苦了我也針對程序上也提出我的看法那大家可以討論分享一下觀點第一個我非常同意剛剛鍾嘉賓昭薇所提有關於預定週三上午就一個上午要用一場公聽會來討論這些職權行使法相關的國會改革法案那目前只訂了四個提綱那其實是沒有辦法含括所有版本裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2272.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2272.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2291.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2293.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具 «立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2317.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2332.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
有20案。那當中所涉及的不同的事項的觀點又更多元又更廣泛。所以說一個已經有20個法案在這裡待審 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2333.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2338.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
公聽會用只有週三一個上午三個小時的時間是沒有辦法充分對話的那更何況還有其他立委的版本包括本黨民進黨團的版本後續也會持續的循程續送進來所以國會改革的法案絕對是二三十案以上那他需要的公聽會討論的這個量能充分的時間絕對更為必要這是第一個議案非常多第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2363.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2374.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
主席一直在說您也追尋了很多的學者專家那其實民主進步黨我們也是非常的努力跟很多的學者專家來做討論事實上對於國會改革的方向目前為止民間的聲音社會的共識還沒有明確的形成學者專家的意見還是屬於非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2387.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2391.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案 案件,則是全國的媒體社會包括公民共同關注的焦點。透過更多場次的公聽會讓社會的共識能夠匯聚這絕對是有利於未來國會不分黨派對於國會改革的方案好好審議一個非常重要的關鍵力量 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2414.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2440.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以之所以要讓社會的專家學者包括公民團體能夠表達他們的力量以彙聚社會共識我也主張公聽會的場次應當要更多第三個這一次的國會改革方案當中社會多所質疑的或是各黨派之間的版本有很多的歧義主要來自於對於憲政層次的不同的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2442.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2462.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
議員楊瓊瓊 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2462.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2463.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我分享一下給大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2480.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2486.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因為我這邊有...好,我跟您報告...好,我最後一項就是說過去在修憲委員會第10屆立法院開了兩場公聽會第8屆的立法院修憲的議題開了10場公聽會那時候是國民黨作為國會多數在第5屆的立法院也是國民黨作為國會多數修憲的議案召開了6場的公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2509.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2518.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以我要再次強調這一次的國會改革法案它不是只有修法層次它非常多是涉及憲法層級的討論所以我比照第10屆有兩場公聽會第8屆有10場公聽會第5屆的立法院有6場公聽會就代表國會是非常慎重的在行使我們監督、修法乃至於修憲的職權所以公聽會是 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2535.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2558.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
議員楊瓊瓊 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2558.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2558.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2589.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2614.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
謝謝昭緯其實昭緯我來跟各位來回憶一下2016年其實有好多的版本包括我個人我都有提出版本當初我們在講國會無法其實就是國會事法加一個規則就是一個組織法的部分我們後來通過了這個國會議長鍾立化然後旁聽的一個規則但是有一些到最後為什麼都推不動 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2615.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2615.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2631.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2633.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
五（委員林德福等25人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2651.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2667.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
但當他沒有共識的時候你說我剛聽到昭緯講說這個公聽會的部分可能就你看起來你有所保留但我跟昭緯報告就是說要小心啊你好不容易來當立委我們學法的人啊你不用插手黨團的狂歡你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2669.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2674.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
該堅持還要有所堅持啊。這麼重大爭議的,什麼你一張還給我丟。你去寵兩張,寵三張,沒在跟人家賣給你泡泡啊。你去寵一張,你自己去弄狂的啊。你如果有心要寵,你自己在共聽會,你自己寵一張。這確實是有涉及到修法層次,有涉及到修憲的層次。虧你也虧不真。趙委員你很清楚啊。你自己提的案,像你提,我雖然敬佩你啊,可是你提的案我就反對啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2700.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2719.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
像我自己的版本我就認為說你用行政法這還不錯你把他提升到刑法站在人民的立場你該睡不掉喔?這不是我的版本啦瑞雄委員你弄錯啦我的版本只有行政法啊你怎麼有行政法啊你這樣你看你被國民黨帶衰掉你看看所以我的意思就是說齁連你都怕出來人家覺得說喔你立法院這麼大喔大家叫他立法院喔喔阿要判刑喔都隨便你們說的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2729.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2736.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
不好,鍾信,好不容易幹到有這個機會在國會殿堂,沒了就查了一天、兩天,一天你保證紅膠,兩天、三天沒有人賣麻煙,所以你把創意就一天,你剛才自己講到你在笑,我好意奉勸提醒好不好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2747.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2759.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我先說明一下那個公聽會的題目可不可以增加?是不是祖密這邊可以說明一下?那個公聽會他的題目是不是可以?剛剛有說好像有沒有增加的? |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2770.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2794.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
另外就是民進黨的版本因為我現在這邊要稍微說明一下民進黨的版本是上週五才提出來的並不是我們有疏漏沒有放到那個公聽會的項目中這部分我要再次說明一下我大概這部分我有去看過以往的做法像以前那個行人交通安全設施條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2795.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2796.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
主席,各位同仁,我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2818.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2839.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
今天我們剛剛大家幾位委員的程序發言特別提到有關於這個我們只有這個立法院職權行使法只召開一場公聽會在禮拜三早上召開一場公聽會三個小時的時間那要認為說舉過去的例子來看這個似乎這個公聽會的時間不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2841.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2864.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那這個其實齁我們這個以一個禮拜三的主題齁一個立法院職權行使法作為一個主題其實我們大家都知道今天的審查包括等一下大家的詢答內容一定是白白種為什麼因為這個立法院行使法裡面相關爭點太多了你有有包括這個這個是不是這個總統到國情報告是不是要常態化這樣就是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2866.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2867.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等50人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2886.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2911.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那再來要不要讓司法用這個表示國會罪這個又是一個大議題其他還有這個這個行使調查權的方法正當性等等這些每一個議題其實三個小時都不一定夠我說實在照理講照理講這些主題我們應該要針對這些國會而且還不止這個我們還有這個這個政府議長選舉的方式還有等等還有很多議題其實每一個議題應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2912.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2940.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
其實都是一個公聽會的主題而且三個小時都不一定談得完這個我想主席應該很清楚了齁那我現在建議就是說而且剛才主席說齁因為你之所以只召開一場是因為現在這個什麼學者已經多有討論了齁這個媒體已經多有報導大家的立場所以應該不必再開公聽會我想這個理由這個這個跟我們的國民黨的這個提案那人事同意權一樣在媒體上面多有討論大家各對每一個人選各有意見所以我們就不用召開聽證會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2942.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2963.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
所以我是認為說即使這一場沒有關係這一場辦了提綱能不能改能不能增加我們到時候只有三個小時扣掉主席致詞扣掉做結論扣掉大家相互詢答每一個出席成員他針對這麼多的議題做答覆我想三個小時是不夠了但是如果沒有辦法改也沒有關係我們就加開 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2964.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2966.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2990.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3007.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
議員楊瓔 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3008.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3008.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3038.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3038.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3054.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3078.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
針對今天本案的審理我在這邊有幾個意見因為剛剛聽了民進黨委員所提到有關程序的部分首先我必須要強調今天所討論的案子都是修法案而不是修憲案如果說今天是有提出來有關於修憲的條文的話那當然要成立的修憲委員會所以本案基本上並不是一個修憲案那第二個就是說是這次我們所提出來的法案其實重點非常的簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3078.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3085.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
不外乎就是四個大重點總統到立法院來進行國情報告然後藐視國會的處罰還有針對立法院的聽證調查以及人事同意權等等這些議題已經討論了20年我認為如果說這個議題說之前沒有討論然後只是最近才討論的話那我想民進黨委員可能太不用功了第三個就是說其實之前的公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3101.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3111.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
中嘉賓委員當朝委在上禮拜其實有召開過公聽會如果說認為國會改革的法案這麼重要的話應該在上個禮拜的公聽會就應該要針對國會改革的相關的法案來進行公聽會而不是召開各自保護法的這個各自保護委員會的籌備的公聽會所以我認為說其實就這個案子來講已經不需要再多增開公聽會也許有些提案可以在禮拜三的公聽會裡面再增加謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3136.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3153.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
主席,因為剛剛公委員提到本席擔任召委的時候排的公聽會,這個倒要請我們主秘要說明一下。因為在我們上週本席可以召開公聽會的時候,這20個案有的還沒有辦法交付委員會審查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3155.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3184.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
所以我們在今天有這個20個提案可以在週三辦公聽會是因為又過了一週所以如果說本席在上週針對包括國會職權行使法包括刑法包括立法委員互選院長副院長辦法等等的這些其實有些提案還沒交互委員會根本也無從辦理公聽會所以這邊呢要請翁委員也跟請主席喔釐清一下那第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3185.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3213.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
並不是說國會改革重要其他都不重要民眾其實現在更關心的是政府如何打詐我們在打詐的過程當中人民的個資怎麼樣隱私如何被保障所以在我們本委員會當中並沒有哪個議題大到排除其他的議題都不可以開公聽會第三那個主席那講的說那個我要確認一下您說齁這主秘要回覆齁就是說這些提綱照說我們發給學者專家的公聽會都在五天前 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3214.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3241.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那麼你要學者專家來提供意見要給他充分的時間準備那如果本今天我們本委會有新增的議案新增的議題那恐怕在本週三就兩天後要放進去給學者專家來提供意見恐怕有點為難人家第四我最後非常肯定昭偉其實呢我們雙昭偉今天當您擔任主席下週我輪至主席我們在議程上都可以互相配合所以我最後一個是說如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3242.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3268.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
主席在本週輪值召委的時候認為公聽會的提綱或未能涵蓋委員們所提出的版本或他們提出的爭點或的議題那或許那本席在未來輪值的時候我也會繼續來排公聽會來滿足各黨派各委員提案當中所提出來的相關爭點要就教於學者專家的我再強調一次不用問歷史啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3268.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3286.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
不用談那麼遠就在上週我們樓下的內政委員會在審理海保法的時候民進黨輪值的召委吳清明主席他就同意了另外一位召委高金素美委員所提出的加開公聽會的要求而且還不只在院內開公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3287.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3288.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
議員楊瓊瓊等25人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3309.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3326.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
主秘可以說明一下那麼我們未來我輪值的時候我可以用我輪值的時間承諾翁委員說的這個重要我來加開公聽會我覺得就誠意事項我覺得就到這邊為止就好了沒有該講的都講了該講的都講那我們現在開始開會我想要補充一下主席我還有權宜問題的這個新生內容剛剛沒有談到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3341.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3366.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
一人一次啦沒關係我可以讓還沒有發言的委員程序問題沒有限制的啦主席尊重我建議主席就一人一次發言程序發言是不是一人一次我想還是總評會好了那換我講了吧好不好這樣好我們現在變個一人發言一次就好好不好因為我們要這樣趕快去那如果這樣的話那就不要不要再程序是這樣發言了我們就到此為止那我們就直接開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3369.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3371.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我覺得其實我們都在包民進黨了。為什麼呢?因為柯建民主張疑問疑答已經8年了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3386.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3411.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
民進黨多數執政8年國情報告及問及答那是柯建民總召的主張欸你8年不好好修法那8年不好好開公聽會該討論的這8年就是已經討論完了今天我們今天公聽會這禮拜舉辦完然後我們好好的來去補足民進黨失落的8年所以我是非常支持主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3411.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3426.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
不用再用公聽會了啦社會大眾已經有很多討論民進黨違憲亂政打自己科建民也打了很久了啦那你這樣藐視國會罪跟國會聽證調查那更是陳其邁12年前的主張欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3427.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3450.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
然後民進黨的立法院黨團8年前也提出了黨團版本欸雖然我看你們新的黨團版本自我閹割的很厲害但沒有關係我們是在想辦法補齊失落的12年啦隨著失落的12年民進黨過去8年多數執政那我講白話那這多數執政的時候請問你們不好好開公廳會不好好修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3451.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3469.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
社會大眾很多的討論 那剛才我們的那個中總召委講了嘛 召委講了就是說下禮拜就是你輪值嘛 那希望下禮拜你輪值禮拜一你也可以開公聽會啊 這點我絕對支持禮拜一開公聽會 那我們下個禮拜該審的法案就並行進行啊 然後公聽會可以繼續開 法案並行進行繼續審 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3474.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3491.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
議員楊瓊瓊 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3491.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3508.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
國會國情報告及問及答然後主張藐視國會要行事處分主張國會聽證調查尊嚴必須捍衛我們告慰八年前民進黨的當時的主張讓民進黨當時的主張可以得到寬慰以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3514.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3527.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
林委員我第一次發言謝謝老師我要講各位委員這個案子我是認為不要再拖了你明明到2012年就有版本就有草案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3528.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3555.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那現在你還跟我們講說這個還要再加開公聽會 這個案子很多社會大眾可能有不了解的地方我想這些東西齁 讓我們感覺就是在拖延這個法案的進行啦。第8屆你也進來了 你看看你們當年國民黨怎麼主張啊。我們不要去講 我就講 你們的主席 你們的主席 你們換了位子就換了腦袋啦齁 所以我想這個案子不要再拖延了齁但是國會改革勢在必行啦 已經見在玄善了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3556.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3581.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
該怎麽樣來進行我想我們尊重召委今天召委排這個要審這個那個先排那個整個案子的一個審查那星期三排公聽會下午逐條討論我想這個才是真正的我們支持國會改革應該要做的一個方向你們昨天才開記者會也已經充分也提出你們的版本都講得很充分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3582.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3582.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
三）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3601.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3625.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我覺得這樣會議搞不定了那我們現在休息兩分鐘如果你們有什麼意見自己去談我們休息兩分鐘兩分鐘到立刻開始程序問題要優先處理主席那我們就先休息兩分鐘不好意思謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3792.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3793.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
主席各位同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3807.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3830.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那我剛才一看電視大家的發言當然雙方各有各自一致但是羅志堂委員對我非常捧場每次講到MBC柯總召我就來這裡回應一下他講說民進黨過去8年、事後8年我主張國際報告幾分幾打我告訴羅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3833.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3849.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
這個事情是怎麼樣總統來做國民報告提問及答從來就是立法院上政治攻防的議題啦都沒成功啦兩屆時候阿伯要來做國民報告國民黨說不行要來就提問及答 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3850.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3868.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
2015的時候馬英九到新加坡嘛,習惠以後,他要來做國民報告,要叫立法院背書。當然我們不同意見,要來的話就幾分幾答。所以這個大家都知道不會成功的,為什麼?因為所有的在在憲法上規定很清楚。 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3870.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3891.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我們要看 憲法是三條行政院是國家最高行政機關 對不對 憲法是三條立法院職權可以預決什麼 預決預算法 預計能夠等等國際國家中央事項 這憲法有關 然後還有憲法徵收條文 徵收條文第三條規定的總統任命行政院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3893.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3910.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那行政院來立法院做施政報告已經被刑。他是代表總統來,總統是直接名義,他任命行政院長。另外,立法院有執行之前,他有被刑之責,我們有執行之前。同時呢,假如對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3913.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3935.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
整個行政團體你不滿意的話你可以行使不信任案。然後第四條規定很清楚就寫就是總統來得來做示範報告。後面那邊都沒有了。後面那邊以前國民大會的。所以這個要從憲法來看待。所以榮常委員我很感謝你常常幫我打字幕錄。 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3937.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3938.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
二）委 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3954.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3977.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
大概講了差不多啦齁那可以進入審打至於183公認會以後當然應該都會公認會包括這個中山平委員可以排嘛過去排很多嘛 也有曾經排到十場、六場、兩場都有這麼大一個國會改革是這個會期重中之重在二月十五號那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3979.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3987.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
黃國昌委員提出國會改革以後到今天就是大家一直在討論當然我們樂意討論那最主要20年來為什麼國會改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3990.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4010.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這次做這麼大的修正。最主要是20年前2014五八五四十次那個問題嘛。五八五四十當時是我領先去實現,同時也去增加憲法法庭嘛。那釋出來因為三角證交會的問題,釋出來就是說立法院有調查權。 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4011.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4031.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
大概那個第二天的期制他是指於假如真的有問題的話要送院會可以罰款,沒有刻意刑責,大概有在這個框架裡面。那今天我們我有改革民眾黨提了無法可以司法,那各黨都有提職權行使法。我要講的是說主席,這地方的審議法案齁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4032.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4048.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
一定要把草案都對出來,因為我們修24條還有一個章兩個節。我們馬海民眾黨沒有修這麼多,所以要把它對出來。所以才能夠對到把它好好審。這個不急的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4049.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4072.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那禮拜三開完公聽會議九十分鐘的話要的話就要進行大禮討論而已,不要進行圖條,這樣可能大家比較好解決。然後中央衛兵家庭會開,以後開完了以後大家對照把節目弄出來,好好討論。我想這個正義A兵A民,包括這裡面有些條件,包括當初在這裡,我有說他的版本和我們一樣,有版本不一樣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4074.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4098.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我們版本和你們的差異是會比較大,所以這個可以合作討論,當然不必說急著怎麼樣,尤其這個要重本會議這是重重重的法案。包括上禮拜海巴法也是一樣,你那種版本還會出來,就我們等,我們要好等,等它出來再審。讓蔡英文開公立會,還在院外在公立會,我們都接受。 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4100.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4119.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
因為法案若有糾葛的話,那越談越清楚嘛。到最後沒有辦法,要去處理了。以上。好,那就第一次發言,需要做第一次發言的委員發言完畢之後,我們的成績發言就結束。那還有哪位要做第一次發言? |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4122.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4139.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
好 謝謝主席那個昭緯您在上週也曾經說過我們國會是一個民主殿堂所以要聽不同的聲音那絕對也不會以這種霸道的方式來進行修法這是昭緯您上週所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4140.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4161.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那麼既然民進黨已經表達有這個版本那是不是可以也先透過公聽會的方式讓社會各界的聲音都能夠這個充分的表達來聽聽我們社會的不同的聲音至於所謂的這個國會改革的討論已經經歷20年之久可是社會也不斷的在進步 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4163.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4191.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
外界對於我們國會所抱持的這個期待也跟著與時俱進那同時作為新科的這個立委我想稍微跟我們對國會改革都有一樣的一個期待那我們是不是可以用更審慎的這個態度共同來寫歷史所以針對這個這些議題那社會大眾大家都這麼的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4192.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4221.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
是不是我們把這個委員會這邊可以對於這個部分逐項來召開公聽會甚至對於比較大的議題如果一次的公聽會不夠的話我們甚至還可以再加開以上我想說建請我們是不是可以來因應辦理好那我想第一次發言的都發言完畢了嘛那沒有要再發言的那我們的程序發言的部分就到此為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4230.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4231.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我們先進行報告事項,宣讀上次的會議事錄。 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4238.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4267.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由．一．中華民國113年3月28日星期四上午9時至下午1時3分．點本院紅樓302會議室．出席委員黃委員國昌等13人．列席委員葛委員儒君等13人．列席官員法務部部長蔡清祥等人．主席中召集委員嘉賓．報告事項一宣讀上次會議一事由．決定確定二．邀請司法院法務部教育部衛生福利部內政部警政署． |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4268.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4290.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
就青少年法治教育犯罪防治成效進行專題報告並被質詢。決定報告及詢答完畢。三（法務部函文113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送最高檢查署決議一預算凍結書面報告請查詔案。決定准予備查提報院會。討論事項第一案至第五案。法務部函文113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該部決議一63、64矯正署及所屬決議一、二預算凍結書面報告請查詔案等五案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4297.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4320.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
本次會委員黃國昌等22人提出質詢。委員劉建國等3人提出書面質詢。決議一報告集群談完畢。二（第一案至第五案均準於動之提報用會。三（委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者。請相關機關請速送交個別委員及本會。宣讀完畢。請問各位就上次的會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏? |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4322.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4340.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
而沒有的話依事錄確定那因為時間的關係我們就不介紹到常委員我們直接先應邀列席的官員有立法院秘書長周岸萊秘書長副秘書長張玉榮副秘書長司法院副秘書長黃玲倫法務部政務次長陳明堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4350.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4365.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
最高主任檢察官呂文忠行政院副秘書長何佩珊其餘名單不足以介紹列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4372.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4392.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
本次議程排定討論事項分別為第一案審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案等15案第二案審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具中華民國刑法修訂第五章之一章名第141條之一及第141條之二條文草案等兩案 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4397.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4406.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
第三案（審查委員羅志強等20人擬具《立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案》等三案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4410.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4432.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
至因第一案中四、五、七、十一至十五及第二案之二各黨團為提出不附議同意書以上個案源於開會通知單所載不予審查特別先向委員會提出說明現在進行提案說明及報告有關前述不予審查之提案分別有本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4434.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4457.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
賴瑞榮委員、賴世寶委員及翁曉琳委員之部分提案。上開提案說明本次會議就不予進行,待傅毅其過後再次排審再進行說明。好,那我們現在進行提案說明。發言時間3分鐘。第一位我們先請提案人副委員坤晴進行提案說明。請就提所提提案一併進行說明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4470.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4489.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
主席各位委員先進所有中央的各位首長各位媒體女士各位先生今天很榮幸能夠在立法院司法委員會就國會改革無法相關事宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4490.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4490.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4509.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4533.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案案案案案﹚立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案案﹚立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院職權行使法部分條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4538.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4539.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
二）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4567.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4583.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
議員楊瓊瓊 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4584.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4594.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
中華民國國會113席正式代表百分之百的民意。我們在這裡再一次的強調陽光的國會改革的國會是2016年民進黨當時為了總統大選所提出來的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4599.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4623.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
而國會必須賦予聽證權、調查權、不得藐視國會等等也是過去民主進步黨所提出來的。再加上總統必須到立法院國會做國情報告及問及答也是過去民進黨所提出來了。我想今天我們在這裡做一個很務實的討論。我們代表人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4624.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4642.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
站在國會今天的國會是人民相信的國會還是腐敗的國會今天要做一個徹底的一個分水嶺歷史上會記得今天因為今天正式的來審查國會改革無法所有立委的發言都會留歷史的記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4643.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4643.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
五（委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4667.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4694.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
君祺在這裡再一次的拜託大家2016年到現在已經有8年準備的時間我想吵吵鬧鬧不是一個國會議員該有的格調跟風骨自己的主張應該終生不渝而不是在這裡為了損耗時間曠日廢時人民希望看到的是一個積極有效能的國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4695.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4722.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
更渴望國會改革無法通過以後讓中華民國成為一個真的青年政治陽光政治為全民來做事情積極認識的有效率的政府再次希望今天的詢答一切順利本週我們的委員會能夠正式把條文討論完畢公聽會也開完本席也應民眾黨團柯總召的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4724.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4724.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4743.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4760.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
要提憲法法庭我們表示尊重未來如果執政黨要提憲法法庭我會表示尊重畢竟大家一切按法律辦事謝謝好那我們接下來請台灣民眾黨黨團代表黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4777.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4798.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
主席本委員會的委員今天代表台灣民眾黨黨團在這邊針對本黨團所提出的立法院職權行使法修正草案進行提案報告事實上在我們所提出的修正草案兩個最大的重點第一個建立國會聽證調查制度這個主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4803.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4827.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
一點都不新鮮這個主張一點都不新奇因為這個主張在2012年民主進步黨立法委員所提到本委員會的立法院職權行使法草案裡面就有了剛剛非常多啊民進黨的立委在說說這麼重要的事情我們要召開公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4829.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4852.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
過去這幾屆的國會針對立法院職權行使法開過了多少公聽會現在的重點不是有沒有開公聽會現在的重點是民進黨自己過去的主張今天敢不敢面對啊的問題2012年12月13號也就是在這裡所召開的公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4853.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4869.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
民主進步黨當時的立法委員從李俊毅現在是監察院的秘書長到林佳龍現在是總統府的秘書長到鄭麗君到田秋瑾一致主張要建立國會聽證調查制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4871.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4885.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這也是為什麼蔡英文總統在2016年競選總統的時候她莊嚴的跟全台灣人民承諾我們要建立國會聽證調查制度八年過去了有嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4887.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4901.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
2016年三月十號司法法制委員會開始排審立法院職權行使法誰排審的那個時候是民主進步黨的召委段宜康請問他召開了幾場公聽會臨場2016年三月十號 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4907.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4925.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
他開始排審的時候之前召開了幾場公定會臨審臨場為什麼臨場因為這些事情在立法院這麼多年來不是有沒有改革的必要是有沒有改革的決心 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4926.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4941.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
當你取得全面執政你希望的是把立法院弱化成立法局但是人民希望的是立法院是一個可以有效站在人民立場監督制衡行政部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4942.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4956.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
的立法院這是為什麼這是為什麼我們很遺憾第九屆國會的時候就應該要完成改革了但是是因為民主進步黨的跳票 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4957.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4984.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
民主進步黨想要把立法院成為護航行政部門的護航大隊才讓這些法案無疾而終。 2024年的現在有了新國會我們一定要掌握這一個歷史的契機完成重要的國會改革才能夠對台灣的民主向台灣的人民負責。謝謝接下來我們請翁曉琳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4998.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5016.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
主席以及在場各位委員各位先生女士大家好本席這次所提的法案重點主要包含兩個部分一個就是總統赴立法院進行國情報告第二個則是立法院未來的表決全部改以記名投票的方式為之那麼這兩 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5018.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5018.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5050.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5055.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
修正立法院職權行使法15條之一、之二以及之四,包括幾個重點。 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5078.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5100.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
更強化立法院自我的要求未來要邀請總統每年必須要至立法院來進行報告總統同時不得拒絕報告對於委員所提出的口頭以及書面的質詢都必須要進行回覆下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5102.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5121.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
至於國情報告的內容包含像國家的大政方針重要的政策的議題在邀請的程序部分的話基本上沒有太多的修改但是針對提問的部分的話就是會來要求總統應該要接受及時詢答至於詢答的方式會由黨團來進行協商下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5128.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5149.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
就像我剛講的我們希望未來能夠讓我們的國會資訊更加透明引進陽光國會的這樣的理念所以我們這次將立法院職權行使法裡面所有涉及這個吳季明投票的這個表決方式全部修改成以季明投票的表決方式那這部分就提供給大家做參考謝謝好謝謝那我們接下來請羅志強委員進說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5167.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5185.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
謝謝主席我想我們這段時間針對國會改革的法案討論當中我想我今天我的提案應該是共識度最高的就是立法院政府院長應該採取記名投票那我看應該包括民進黨我都沒有看到反對的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5186.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5214.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那其實道理非常簡單我們是人民選出來的立法委員那跟一般我們在所謂的投票的過程當中所謂的秘密投票的情況是不相同的我們不是代表我們個人來投票選舉立法院的政府院長我們是代表人民來投票選舉立法院的政府院長所以基於公開透明的原則的話我們有義務來告訴我們的選民我們的政府院長投票給誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5215.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5236.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
所以過去其實大家也知道事實上實務上各黨面對立法院政府院長的投票都採取所謂的技術性亮票這就是一個非常奇怪的事情所以不如在這一次的國會當中我們撥亂反正那就讓這一次的立法院的政府院長可以用公開透明的方式採取記名投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5237.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5266.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
事實上地方的議長議會的議長已經是採取記名投票了那反倒是我們的立法院在這個立法上是落後跟退步的所以希望能夠透過這個提案能夠追上這個進度那我也想目前看起來這個針對各個關於國會改革法裡面看起來這個記名投票真的是應該共識度是比較高的也希望能夠在這個會期當中通過然後告訴選民我們改革國會的決心以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5268.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5271.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家好貴委會今天舉行全體委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5296.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5323.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
萬來奉邀列席就委員所提立法院職權行使法修正草案中華民國刑法增定條文草案及立法委員副選院長副院長辦法修正草案進行報告深感榮幸承蒙各位委員在業務方面給予許多支持使本院各項行政工作得以順利推展特別藉此機會向各位委員表達最誠摯的敬意以謝誠 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5324.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5333.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
等次立法院職權行使法修正草案大概可分為四大部分,第一部分是針對國情報告,第二部分是聯視同意前 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5334.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5356.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
緊急命令追認及總統彈劾第三部分是明定執行規範第四部分是建制調查聽證機制另外配合立法院職權行使法的修正中華民國憲法也徵定了藐視國會罪緊要說明如下依國情報告部分有關國情報告依貴委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5358.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5381.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
本年3月21日第8次全體委員會議或要進行專題報告,相關修法重點已進行報告及說明,遠不再重複。第二部分,聯視同意權緊急命令追認及總統達核部分現行立法院職權行使法第29條,則針對憲法未接聯視同意權程序有所規定,法例未接之聯視同意權目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5384.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5413.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
慣例由常設委員會處理並以出席委員過半式同意為通過就委員提案建立改採記名投票部分依司法院司事第769號解釋議職記名與不記名投票各有利弊外國立法律均有之故使立法政策選擇尊重委員合意決定另有關緊急命令追認總統或總統之談科案適合改採記名投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5416.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5434.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
外國總統至國家中美國國會總統之緊急面面及新主堂或全系採行記名點名投票而韓國國會則採無記名投票,請並供參考。在就連日同意前,視我林定局辦公聽會或聽證部門外國立法力不一。 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5435.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5447.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
由於聽證與公聽會之性質與效力不同,適合舉行聽證或公聽會涉及本院行使職權之程序,使議會自律範圍尊重委員合意決定適合與以法制化。 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5449.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5475.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
就徵定提名的程式不實、拒絕或提供資料不實之效力部分委員提案有明定將不予審查或藐視國會規定處理或移送監察院或高等行政法院調查方式不一再符合法律明確性原則、正當法律程序規則、比例原則等前提下尊重委員立法行使自由職權部分委員可以再給1分鐘嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5479.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5507.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
委員諮詢部分有關於隱匿資訊或虛偽答覆反諮詢等徵盡答覆義務之處罰各國家規定在目前的內閣制國家並沒有法律責任的這個名文這也是屬於立法政策的選擇尊重委員合意決定有關於調查聽證部分各個委員所提案的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5509.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5538.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
不依尊重委員合意決定至於這個爭議處理方式大概因為沒有明定所以考慮是不是要把這個一個規範爭議處理方式把它明定在裡面至於形式上這個需要陳述不實或提出不實資料可以刑法一節論則不依這個也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5541.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5570.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
也是有請這一個各委員參酌另有關於台灣民眾黨對於黨團協商無法就開議達成共識之明定由立法由院長召開全院委員談話會處理現已有案例尊重民眾黨團提案明確化特於口頭補充最後有關於院長副院長選舉改記名投票方式學者有不同的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5570.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5597.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
不過各個國會大概對於國會議長的選舉採集名投票方式向美國眾議院就是這樣的規定。繼以行政幕僚的立場,對於上開提案我們尊重各位委員審議的結果也會配合處理相關行政資源工作,以使表院職權行使更為順遂。以上報告就您指教,謝謝。好,謝謝。那我們接下來請司法院黃副秘書長報告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5607.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5632.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
主席各位委員大家好那今天司法院奉邀列席貴委員會就民眾黨黨團等各個黨團及委員所提出來的關於立法院職權行使法以及中華民國刑法的修正草案請本院來報告那深感榮幸首先就這個相關的這些議題說明本院的這個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5633.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5633.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
五（委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5646.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5651.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
總統到立法院進行國情報告那在司法院的這個大法官事務就我們清查一直到到那個111年1月4號憲法訴訟法施行以來並沒有做成相關的這個解釋或者裁判那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5664.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5685.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
司法院是由大法官去執掌憲法解釋並整組成憲法法庭去行使審判權所以有關於總統到立法院進行國會報告的方式本院是執施司法行政在這邊比較不宜去表示意見尊重大院的這個職權另外有關於聽證跟文件調查權的部分有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5687.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5711.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
本院大法官就國會調查權以及調閱文件曾經做過4至325號、585號、633號以及729號等相關的這些解釋。那麼相關的解釋意旨,那麼也請也大願各位委員可以去供參考。那以上簡短報告,謝謝。謝謝委員。好,謝謝。那我們接下來請法務部陳次長報告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5721.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5723.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
行政院的何副秘書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5730.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5754.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
主席各位委員大家好今天我們應邀這個貴委會審查國會改革的相關法案我們本院應邀列席分身感榮幸那麼本院我們整合了我們所有機關的統一意見那麼我們報告如下關於那個貴委員會所提這個人事行使人事同意權的部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5757.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5778.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
必須要求被提名人提供財產稅務行務紀錄表相關資料參考。那麼因為現在的獨立機關委員提名作業都交給本院的人事行政總署因相關的規定用以行政院含將獨立機關組織法要求各項要件跟審查資料含請貴院審查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5780.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5786.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
財產、稅務及刑案紀錄表是處於各該獨立機關組織法規定任命專業條件以外的個人資料,事涉個人隱私,會影響人才擔任的意願。請三思。關於行使人事同意權的部分還有一個問題是民眾黨團的提案對於證詞方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5804.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5807.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
如果有虛偽不實之陳述要罰以50到500萬罰款這部分恐怕也有問題因為我們這個人事同意權的對象基本上他是應政府的邀請進來政府他基本上大概都是社會上學有專業的這個精英那麼動輒對我們的精英人才要施以這個刑法 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5833.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5833.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5855.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5870.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
貴院的聽證這部分在憲法56條規定本院的院長有人事任命權應該是屬於行政特權的一部分這個提案是不是符合憲法權利分立跟制衡原則也請慎著 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5872.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5898.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
其次還有關於這一個這個行政法以及刑法對於這個調查權的對象行政法以及刑法的部分還有包括我們這一個反質詢對反質詢的行為處以行政法的部分這部分我們要強調在我們585事件文裡面其實相關行政法跟刑法的相關條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5899.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5923.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
甚至六三三四憲文基本上都被宣告為違憲目前也都還沒有再修過那這部分我希望委員能夠重視這部分的問題雖然確實在該四憲文裡面有強調立法院可以經由院會議決可以有行政法的權利不過這部分是不是可以這麼做真的也請委員三思 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5924.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5943.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
而且他必須符合司法審查還有符合憲法第23條的比例原則跟法律明確性的原則。那麼以上的這個報告我們都是基於剛剛司法院的這一個副秘書長也有提到325、585跟729三項釋憲文那麼我們也有附件在後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5947.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5947.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
委員楊瓊瓊 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5976.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5992.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
好,謝謝。機關代表報告完畢。相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄。那我們先做那個會議程序的宣告。本日會議請進行詢答,請各位注意。那上午會議時間進行到詢答結束為止。 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6002.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6023.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
提案說明跟機關報告已經進行完畢所以我們現在開始進行詢答那本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不得再延長上午10點3分截止發言登記我們現在請第一位黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6037.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6051.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
呃,謝謝主席。麻煩有請立法院周秘書長、法務部陳事長、行政院何副秘書長。欸,換位很好。換位好。請,請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6066.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6072.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
時間的關係不亦問候2016年蔡英文提出的國會改革承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6074.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6094.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
人民的國會開放的國會專業的國會我負責任把他列出來跳票一堆九成以上全部都跳票唯一有做到的是什麼唯一有做到的就是我們現在委會開會的時候IVOD要轉播包括現在民進黨主張違憲的聽證調查制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6100.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6120.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這是蔡英文的主張包括最簡單的鄭副院長記名投票這件事情混了八年到現在都還沒有過來請教一下秘書長秘書長你會不會認為蔡總統提出的國會改革方案已經不合時宜要把它丟到垃圾桶裡面去 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6125.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6144.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
國會改革這個大概現在在這次總統選舉大家大概都有共識希望國會做一個改革當然國會從80號年全面改選以後也改過很多次但是一直這個一定是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6146.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6172.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
議員楊瓊瓔 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6173.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6193.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
2012年12月13號的時候司法法制委員會召開公定會那時候公督盟的理事長施信明老師呼籲社會人士到立法院備詢合法也合憲來請教一下秘書長對公督盟理事長當年這樣的呼籲你贊不贊成你並不反對嗎OK好 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6201.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6221.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那事實上我覺得很奇怪喔現在討論到憲法第67條討論到憲四至五八五號我覺得民主進步黨是不是失意了啊這些都是民進黨的召委邀社會有關係的人士啊到立法院裡面來備詢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6223.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6247.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
田秋琴委員現在當監察委員了。留建國委員現在還在本院是我們的同事。鄭麗君委員大家全部都邀社會有關係的人士全部都是民主進步黨邀的怎麼會現在我要進行國會改革的法案的時候民進黨對這件事情開始大聲抨擊啊來請教一下秘書長啊戰不戰成 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6250.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6278.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
立法院沒有聽證 沒有調查 立法院就成了缺了牙的老虎 贊不贊成因為我們有幫花姐師也給立法院有調查權 好很好民主黨贊不贊成喔國會沒有調查權 過去只有中華民國敢這樣講 任何民主國家都不是這樣講只要是國會要行使職權 不可能不行使調查權 民主黨贊不贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6280.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6285.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
第二層是現在是我們的普適性的權利行使例外的職權的普適性權利好 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6287.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6315.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
最關鍵的是當初領銜提案的立法委員林佳龍現在是總統府秘書長他當初怎麼講的他說立委對政府官員的質詢官員在那10分鐘只要當個木頭人被罵幾句事後什麼事情也沒有發生這個質詢沒有辦法產生法律上的拘束力如果我們對於他的隱匿可以要求對他的失職負起責任他如果說謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6316.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6324.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
更是要在國會殿堂所做的不實證詞或虛偽證據,負起刑法上、政治上的責任。民主黨在不贊成? |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6326.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6348.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這個學者的解釋上不同啦大概藐視國會罪裡面的大概要不要涉事刑事責任對這個有大家來在討論過程來做決定好沒有關係喔最後我們再往下看我過現行法治下官員在國會說謊請問要負什麼責任他大概他有對國會藐視的情況藐視又怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6356.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6383.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我就是藐視你啊我就是要說謊啊藐視又怎麼樣大概這裡面大概學者的論述不太相同啦有些是透過每一個國家對於這一個藐視國會之理有些是行政法有些是有些是這一個行使法所以這一個是立法的政策選擇的空間我說秀具體的例子嘛蔡清祥 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6386.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6412.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
我在上上屆國會問他的時候氣泡潛逃罪在哪裡他敢在委員會裡面講欸說已經在司法委員會了他就任前就送來了胡說八道當場被我抓包啊要議事人員停止時間徹查議事人員報告沒有沒有送到委員會來可以這樣胡扯喔當初 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6415.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6431.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
疫苗大家在問的時候疫苗相關的合約高端的合約多少錢陳時中當初怎麼講的說我們那個有簽保密協議啊有簽保密協議不能講啊他講的時間是什麼時候2021年6月11號2021年6月11號這個時間點為什麼重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6438.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6446.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
一直到這次大選大家不斷的逼不斷的逼終於逼出來了什麼時候簽保密協議的2021年7月19號機關署才跟高端補簽保密 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6454.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6473.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
協議之前簽約的時候根本沒有六月十一號的時候他來立法院被尋的時候根本沒有我的行政官員在國會裡面堂而皇之的說謊沒有任何的法律責任律師長請教一下有哪一個民主先進國家是這麼荒謬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6475.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6476.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我整理出來啦美國的國會英國的國會法國的國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6501.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6515.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我每一個全部都整理出來啦來問一下法務部次長次長列法律的可能會比較熟啦在德國調查委員會做虛偽的陳述有沒有刑責請按麥克風啦抱歉那個有那個是那個老師我們沒有特別去講那個立法院的報告裡面有 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6525.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6551.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
德國刑法162條第二項在國會裡面的調查委員會做虛偽陳述的話有沒有刑事責任?在我國如果最後立法者最後立法者的決斷立法裁量的形成有行政法嗎?也有刑法嗎?在我自己提的版本我是直接用行政法因為我覺得行政法比較有效啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6552.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6576.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
你要國會決議交給檢察官起訴檢察官起訴還要經過審判程序我老實講啊整個程序結束以後都不曉得拖多久了啦但是這是立法院立法裁量形成的空間不是行政部門作為被監督的對象可以在那邊說三道四的說本院沒有這個權利可以做這樣子的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6577.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6587.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
來我們來看一下國外的例子奧地利前總理在國會聽證前做偽證結果發生了什麼事情判刑8個月緩刑7個月在美國眾議院傳喚納瓦羅出庭作證他拒絕納瓦羅依照藐視國會作被起訴判4個月有期徒刑9500美元罰金3月19號 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6606.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6633.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
他已經入獄服刑了沒有一個民主國家像台灣這麼荒謬官員官員在國會前面說謊竟然不用去承擔任何的法律責任而在面對現在我們的立法院職權行使法要修法的時候過去高喊國會改革的民主進步黨全部都得了什麼失憶症 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6634.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6644.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
全部都得了失憶症啊不是在強化國會監督的能量而是什麼而是在做國會的自我閹割在做國會自我監督權力的弱化秘書長再請秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6653.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6682.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
您認為我們目前立法院職權行使法裡面我們的國會真的按照現行的規定有辦法適度的扮演好好的代表人民監督的立場嗎?就是目前的現行法是不夠所以才需要再修法所以有委員針對這個部分大家聯繫共識然後再把法修好把法補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6683.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6703.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
理事長非常好喔你最起碼站在本院的立場知道國會代表的價值跟意義是什麼啊而不是像我們的行政部門啊今天提這一堆報告出來基本上就是跟你講不要監督啦說謊沒有關係啦好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請審法會委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6722.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6749.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
主席各位同仁我想今天我們最後現在進入這個尋答的部分針對這個立法院職權行使法相關的修正草案進入討論我想在這個討論之前包括我們剛剛程序發言的大議大概在一個立法委員行使法的這個草案裡面事實上牽涉非常多的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6751.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6772.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
議員楊瓊瓊 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6778.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6792.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
四位好周秘書長好我看你的書面報告你有做一些整理就現有的今天所審查的20個法案所提出來的這個內容你把它做分門別類 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6796.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6803.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
關於總統國情報告的有人事同意權的有緊急命令的追認這些都是不同的議題有總統彈劾的問題有這個諮詢的規範這是剛剛其他委員他們所關注的諮詢規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6815.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6818.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
還有這個立法院的調查權、聽證權還有這個有關質詢的規範是不是要由刑法來規範這個也是一個議題那這個另外比較小的政府議長 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6833.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6847.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
這個秘書長你所整理的這些部分是針對目前的這個20個案子來做整理的齁那這個我不知道秘書長因為這個我們這個案子還沒有進來齁民進黨有提一個草案這部分秘書長不知道有沒有有沒有看過民進黨的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6848.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6861.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我只看到大概印了一個新聞稿我看過啦。因為有部分的對於強化我們的幕僚啊。也有一些規範啦。但是條文裡面（主席對對對要等程序會排了之後。不過我在程序會之前我可能會先送一份給秘書長來拜訪。 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6872.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6894.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那這個民進黨也有一份我們的草案有關立法院職權行使法的草案那我就看了目前我們今天議程所列的這20個草案跟我民進黨所提的草案其實民進黨所提的草案還有一些議題是目前沒有涵蓋在這20個 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6897.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6897.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6926.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6926.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
委員楊瓊瓊 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6949.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6967.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
大概最重要的精神都是在國會自律就是我們在在有關這個立法委員立法院職權行使法的部分都是國會自律的部分比較佔比較多那國民黨的草案呢大概就是立法院權力的擴張我這樣歸類對不對我們剛剛所講的這些議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6970.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6988.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
目前我們的這些20個草案大部分都是權力的擴張增加對不對因為這樣說明因為325號因為當時職權行使法在處理的時候長官叫我負責這個地方的時候是以325號解釋為基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6991.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7006.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
後來58號解釋以後立法院的這個調查權它是已經稍微擴大。對,這要擴大以後現行的法規裡面並沒有配合。所以才會。但是他也做了一些限制嘛對不對。585號他不是只有說擴大。 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7007.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7011.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
五八五號的解釋裡面對於調查權的範圍他也做了一些一些限縮跟規範對不對五八五號是這樣對我的理解沒有錯了吼那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7028.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7045.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我在這邊也是跟本委員會的各位同仁也是希望說這個事實上立法院職權行使法它絕對不只是現在這些議題民進黨所提出的草案裡面有關國會自律的部分我認為應該一併 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7047.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7048.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7060.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7078.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
的條文我目前看到的都是在現有的這個立法院職權行使法之外再去提升新的職權都是立法院擴張這部分我是希望說本委員在審查的時候能夠一併把民進黨有關國會自律的部分一併納入審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7079.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7101.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那這個就目前齁其實剛剛所講的我們列出來我們剛剛所討論的光這個爭議點這麼多還好還好我們兩個禮拜前我們這個今天的會議主席齁我們的召委有安排了針對這個總統國情報告的專案報告所以那個議題我們可以深入討論事實上上次我們用一天的時間討論這個總統來立法院國情報告的議題嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7106.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7120.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
但是其他的議題我們現在呼嚕呼轟轟的把它弄成一包那在在在今天巡達完禮拜三再開一場公聽會三個小時扣掉主席致詞扣掉做結論大概兩個小時每個委員大概大概要要談這麼多問題要談人事同意權要談緊急命令要談總統彈劾要談質詢規範要談這個這個立法院調查權聽證權要談藐視國會罪要談立法院政府議長選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7133.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7154.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
所以我是我是是覺得說這樣子的整個立法過程實在是有過於衝觸了齁即便即便這個這個我們召委認為說這個東西討論20年了所以不用再開公聽會但是我想公聽會有公公聽會的價值我們法案立法院法案都有屆期不連續上屆開的公聽會在這一屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7156.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7169.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這一屆有沒有效率這個這又是另外一個問題這一屆我們本身我們要立法者上一屆你說你說2016年開過幾次公聽會2016年我不是立法委員我那時候只是新北市議員而已那我現在我在公聽會裡面我要表達意見我沒有給我這個公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7173.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7183.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這個是基本這個屆期不連續的一個基本概念所以我是再一次的希望說我們在進入法條審查之前我們能夠針對剛剛所講的這些議題贏贏大者很多這個我光就來提這個我們大家所討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7194.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7199.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
講兩個第一個有關這個藐視國會罪齁用刑法來規範這個質詢齁說反質詢必須要是藐視國會必須要以藐視國會罪論處這個反質詢這種字眼齁有這個秘書長你你你你號稱活字典反質詢他有法律的定義是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7218.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7223.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
因為這個反質詢就比較含困啦。所以（所以（所以（ |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7226.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7228.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7257.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7270.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
委員剛剛你所問的問題我沒有聽清楚請問你可以再說一遍嗎這算不算反質詢來我們因為法律沒有規範嘛所以我實在搞不清楚什麼叫做反質詢來侯志廉我們說明我剛剛這樣算不算反質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7271.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7286.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
所以在我的報告裡面針對這一個地方在我報告在3月第3月第4月有稍微做個說明這一個執行制度每個國家有他不同的這一種規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7288.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7308.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
對有各種不同的規範那你現在說要把反質詢納入納入這個用可以刑責那你就法律裡面就要對反質詢你要有明確的定義啊這個不是所有念法律系的人第一課不要說法律系啦法學序論裡面就有了這個這個這個完全你這個刑責沒有法律的明確性 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7310.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7331.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
到底什麼叫反質詢,你沒有去定義,然後要刻以刑責。我覺得這個是荒天下的大廟。這部分我覺得還是要拜託本委員會委員在審查的時候,能夠真的三思的。這種事不是寒爽的。這種刻以刑責的。這個不只是這些啦,裡面還有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7332.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7361.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
很多我覺得我我覺得如果我們能夠針對這些議題好好召開幾個公聽會我在還有很多的問題包括我們聽證會我們現在把這個這個調閱人包括到所有公司法人公法人司法人人民團體都必須要來而且來了還可以送行者我們人事同意權說人家還沒有同意他當當當什麼委員他還只是一個一個一個國民來了說你若說謊我要把你送 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7362.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7363.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
五（委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7390.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7394.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
好謝謝那我們接下來請陳俊宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7421.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7423.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
主席,請周秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7430.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7454.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
陳委員好。我想首先跟民主黨您討論一下針對我們國會擴建的計畫。國會除了次法制面的改革外,攸關意識品質的硬體設備也急需改革。早在1990年的時候,我們立法院就提出要遷建至華山車站,可是後來也沒有成功。 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7455.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7455.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7485.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7494.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
國建的這個點位是否會重新評估還是還是會依照6選1或是會不排除會增加新的選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7497.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7520.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
謝謝陳委員提出這一個這一個國會擴建的這個計畫因為大概上一次在我郭勤勇報告的建議裡面委員也提出來那現在大概我們也是在總務處那邊在做研擬那因為最主要是由院長在上一屆談話要結束在黨團協商他有提過要繼續再處理那繼續處理是這六個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7525.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7553.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那我上次也講過公督門來我接見他們又再提出來那我們會再演繹會再跟院長報告是不是就六個點或什麼大概我們總務處會有一個報告上來我們再跟院長報告那看要怎麼處理是不是接續有緣來那六個然後透過黨團協商來有一個共識再繼續推動大概可能是這樣所以點位的部分是還沒確定就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7554.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7580.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
因為我們也因為委員長所說是接續吧是就繼續要處理但是他當時在第10屆是規劃6個點有6個點6個地方是有6個地方好那我想請教秘書長就是上一屆我們有組成這個國會擴建的規劃及監督委員會那想請問未來我們是不是會再重新組成這種小組或是臨時的委員會來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7584.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7611.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
大概有總務處大概你來的時候再跟院長報告以後在是不是要透過黨團協商啦怎麼去決定啦那這整個我們在後續上還這報告應該還沒上來所以我也會變在這邊跟陳委員報告將來是怎麼做這個應該是委員合議的合議的狀況幕僚長只能說把any意見再往院長報告然後再看怎麼去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7611.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7629.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
好 所以聽起來如果以剛剛兩個問題聽起來我們對於這個問題秘書長您都還沒掌握相關的期程我個人是因為從82年這個從華山又變成空軍總部我都在啦但我個人來講我是比較希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7629.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7629.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7645.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7668.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
好 那本席還是期待我們國會擴建能夠加速的這個啟動相關的期程那擴建不只是為了提升這個議事的品質也是為台灣民主發展一個很重要的里程碑那已經推動三十幾年了現在就差最後一里路所以也請秘書長能夠持續協助院長全力來推動我們國會的這個擴建案 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7672.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7688.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
謝謝 謝謝接著我想請教就是說針對這個國情報告不答詢的部分那立法院我們將邀請總統到立法院做國情報告的部分我想在近期內這個委員都熱烈的在討論那對於這個專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7693.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7719.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
也有很多的這種討論但在這個部分本席還是要主張就是針對我們憲法徵修的條文第四條第三項的規定立法院於每年這個集會的時候得聽取總統的國情報告應該是依憲法不答詢那至於總統發表報告的這個實際的方式為了避免這個淪為政治的攻防 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7720.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7743.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那也避免我們國情報告和行政院長施政的報告有這個撞起。建議參酌美國發表國情諮文報告的這種制度,朝向每年定期知情,立法院同意後到國會來進行報告。且為了符合我們這個憲政的權責,不應該有巡打的環節。 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7745.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7771.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
總統府在這次的書面報告中也有提到總統赴立法院進行國情報告具有重要的這種憲政意義不論是現任的蔡總統或是即將上任的賴總統在符合憲政體制前提之下對於到立法院向國會及人民報告都並不排斥所以在此我想請教秘書長府方是否也認同總統到國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7775.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7787.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
的部分這個秘書長您對這部分瞭解情況如何?我不太瞭解。那我們是不是請專委來回覆一下。那請專委上台。 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7799.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7827.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
好,專委是那那個賴總統當選人曾經表示過在符合憲政體制之下他樂意向國會跟人民做報告那至於立法委員的職權行使的部分他是在依法核心的原則上尊重國會的共識尊重國會的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7829.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7853.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那我們有沒有基本的一個這個基本的想法應該就是一樣是報告不答詢我想就是賴總統當選人的剛剛的講法這是我們的立場對是什麼立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7857.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7869.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
就在符合憲政體制之下,賴總統當選人願意接受國情報告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7873.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7901.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那民主黨我想請教一下針對剛剛莊委講的部分我們這個院方這邊可以這個配合這個府方的這種想法嗎?我們是以我們委員自己在立法過程的這個合意來做決定的。好。那還是尊重我們這個立法院最...我們委員自己的合意來決定到底要怎麼處理。好。好。那 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7901.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7904.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我再請教最後一個問題啦齁對於國會改革的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7907.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7935.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我們立法院職權行使法的這個制度是依據立法院組成第二條立法院行使憲法所賦予的這個職權而立法院這個組織法則是依照憲法第76條所訂定的那立法院職權行使法自這個民國88年總統公佈以來修正過11次秘書長這個長年在立法院服務參與過幾乎這個所有的過程我想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7937.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7937.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
五（委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7954.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7967.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
國衛無法在修的時候是因為長官是要負責議事規範這部分那因為以前都是議事規則那我認為是因為職權的願績間一定要有法規範所以當時經過劉院長也跟幾個黨團協商同意還是定定在立法院職權行使法 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7977.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7979.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
當時這樣的情形。經過11次的修正。我在96年以前的這個職權行使法修正我是有參與的。96年以後我就沒有參與。 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7992.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8015.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
好其實改革是越要越改越好啦齁那我也期待說未來我們啊這個啊秘書長您可以協助相關的這個修法過程裡面能夠朝向這個民主機制大家所期待的一個目標來這個做修法啦齁那對於秘書長您簽稱自己是這個行政的幕僚長啦齁那在這次的這個報告中有 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8016.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8033.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
大多尊重委員會的合意決定您剛剛也有說了或是尊重委員立法這個形成的自由但是對於有提案要以藐視國會知名來採取刑法手段這部分是否也有比較多的討論空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8035.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8045.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我二月五號來以後在二月六號我就請我們法治局在各個國家的一些這個整個聽證調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8047.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8049.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8075.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8075.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
五（委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8102.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8122.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
謝謝主席有請我們立法院周萬來秘書長請周秘書長還有我們司法院書記廳廳長好不好好請廳長還有我們法務部我們陳明堂次長好請陳次長上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8125.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8141.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
中委員好謝謝秘書長還有兩位列席的官員我先讓大家來回憶一個影片來看看一個新的法要推出以後各黨的反應會是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8142.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8170.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
然後他的反應到底值不值得大家來做討論那我先讓大家看一段這個16年的時候民進黨提出版本甚至本席也提出版本當初國民黨政策會執行長賴世保委員這我尊敬的委員他的想法除非先修憲把監察院整個監察權拿掉因為你部分的調查官員調查人民也好那這些來講的話都基本上都是監察院在行使的一定感覺說立法院是在擴權 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8173.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8189.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這個類似法委員講得非常平和啦這個也當初啊民進黨提出的版本跟本席提出版本的時候啊我再去反省的地方另外啊國民黨的立法委員林德福委員除非是 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8192.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8214.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
當初他的講法是說這可能涉及到各執法的問題法官檢察官都不能這樣管治到個人立法權都不能擴張無限大就算是個人有犯法也是由司法檢調系統處理輪不到你立委這林德武委員這在大在1996年的時候他在書底跟我說你為什麼要這樣寵我們日本人為什麼要這麼大我跟他說我們再討論看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8221.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8243.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這個是在第9屆的時候那在第8屆的時候呢我相信林佳龍委員他當初在當立法委員的時候他也有提出類似這樣的一個版本那本席為什麼今天會要提出這些來救教周秘書長還有陳次長還有我們書記廳的廳長這些做廳長這都算書記廳這都算很好的你知道嗎都法學素養都非常深厚也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8245.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8271.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
大家一直在講說大法官大法官大法官會議啊有誰要講大法官有誰要講大法官大法官是很大的啊三十八年第一號釋憲解釋就已經出來了那為什麼他大?大家一直在講說大法官同意解釋憲法解釋憲法的法律跟命令到底有沒有抵觸這個都專處他的權限我們還從過去整個威權時代啊有那麼大因為那時候都 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8273.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8299.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
威權、政府、總統、一黨獨大說要怎樣就要怎樣。所以大家甚至把大法官就說,你叫做不只是憲法的守護神,你還叫人權的守護者。到現在大家都這樣說,那為什麼他大?他就大到你法律就算你法院三審判決已經確定了有人申請大法官釋憲,所以你說這個適用法律有所違背的話,甚至那個確定判決都可以來申請再審跟非常上訴。好啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8301.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8301.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8317.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8344.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
大光輝解釋558號裡面他去講到說立法院調查權的行使的方式並不以要求有權機關就立法行使立法權行使權所涉及的事項提供參考資料或向有關機關調位文件原本的文件調位權違憲也就是說立法院當然要有調閱權立法院本來就可以有調查權這整個權限才會完整嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8345.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8353.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這個到現在來看的話雖然國民黨有更好像看起來是進步的法案跟16年到12年民進黨法案一樣我還是表達贊同國會要有這個調查權但問題是說這個界限到什麼地方啊立法院不是說你要安坐就可以安坐捏你去看看喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8366.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8381.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
五四至五八五幾次他到最後跟你講說並得對違反協助調查義務者於科處罰款的範圍內施以合理的強制手段也就是說最高手段說叫做你只能罰款而已啦到這裡而已16年到最後為什麼民進黨多數沒辦法通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8390.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8409.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
蔡英文揭示的是人民的國會、改革的國會、開放的國會啊。我們也都知道啊。但是就是社會沒有共識啊。當初是這樣來的啊。不然要過一個多數我們就過啊。大家還是要反省嘛。所以我的意思就是說我們去看看我們後來事後去討論大法官會議解釋就很明文的跟我們這樣講。 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8411.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8435.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
你最高手段就是科處華環違憲甚至於整個大法官會議解釋裡面的危言大義是在講說你必須要去符合民主原則各案的調查事項的範圍你不能去違反權力分立跟制衡的原則也不得侵害其他憲法機關的權力核心範圍或對其他憲法機關權力的行使造成實質妨礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8436.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8455.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
如就各項調查方法所規定的程序有涉及限制人民權利者要求必須要符合憲法的比例原則、法律明確性跟正當法律程序的要求。今天這一些事項哪有說像國民黨委員講的這都跟憲法無關的這特條嘛跟憲法有關的跟憲法太無關的。市長不是這樣子嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8461.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8478.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
其實如委員所說的啦,那到585號解釋的第二段就講到這個問題。真的?要有這個憲法上的明確性、比例言者、正當懷歷等等這些的要求。大法官司法院不是不能挑戰,你也人他不能挑戰,只是那個職務的時候, |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8480.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8509.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
當初我一直在搜尋,為什麼當初要叫做大法官,我到現在也搜尋不到為什麼他命要叫做大法官,但是他確實是權限就很大嘛,大到我本期剛所提到的那一些嘛。所以張偉達本身也是學法啦。這個界線齁,其實大家都要守住啦。他其實在講的就是說,這個社會有沒有共識。民進黨到現在版本齁,我跟照我報告,我們現在的版本齁,我們還蓋,還蓋,還一直蓋,我秀我的版本給你看啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8509.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8514.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我當年國會改革的版本我也有啊我跟顧立雄就是主題的啊我也有反省啊就是我們要搞對的那個手段最高能到什麼地方我們認為沒有共識就推下來稍微不是我們賣過是大家去想到說這個界限範圍到哪裡你這個法律規範要去設成到哪裡像國民黨現在的版本是不只是政府機關喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8540.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8559.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
你看司法人一般老百姓當然趙委員講說那個不是你的版本啦齁但國民黨版本你也很清楚嘛真的我們立法院我們設成有辦法這樣規範國會大道把公私行號台灣中小企業百分之九十起全部都去中小企業捏我全部都給你調來搞什麼嘿嘿不給我據實陳述決議完法環 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8567.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8570.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
一送檢調那開什麼玩笑嘛檢察官膽敢如此立法院一定跳出來說你這都都都爛拳那竟然我們自己要立這樣的一個法律我想起來我就怕你知道嗎要善施啊稍微我們兩個都噁心了我們不要亂了這個部分有太多的正式口水 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8590.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8601.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
因為大法官當然有時候他也會介入啦他也會很多政治性的啦就像當年我們在討論同婚本來大法官會議針對整個婚姻制度做出幾套解釋他到最後也自己把他推翻掉啊他說不行 那個同婚喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8604.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8618.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
大家都可以 幸福的家庭的組成大家認為這是進步的喔可是這一件事情如果說我們今天立法來通過的話把老百姓也可以找到國會來沒有聽我立法院的到最後我就立法院作成決議法治30萬不然 嘿嘿 藐視國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8625.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8631.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
國會改革可以讓它更進步讓國會的調查權讓國會整個權限更完整這個都好事嘛但問題就是說當我們超過半數的時候絕對多數的時候秘書長我們也不敢做你知道嗎秘書長你今年幾歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8654.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8655.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
七十二歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8685.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8690.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
您好久沒有念書了,也不曉得幾號了。我的意思就是說,這樣幾號一直下來一直下來一直下來,就是為什麼?就是不管是誰當家、誰威權、誰集權,至少有這個憲法,就是做人民權利的一個保障嘛。大法官會,你們大家都不要跟主席說什麼人最大,我們來聯手,我們來做這個法律來懲罰人民,很爽。 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8709.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8729.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
不能為了跟民進黨這個執政黨去對抗然後把我們該守的憲法的一個底線把它給逾越了還是要有社會共識不要管哪個規 我也給你們尊重啊你保證到時你就去給他們幹掉我告訴你但是呢對於本院的一些心格事項啊我也要來請教我們秘書長就是說兩位我們那個次長跟廳長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8734.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8753.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
議長我簡單的問啦就是我們二月份政府機關的那個資安聯防的一個情資裡面啊你看被攻擊的部分你看到四萬幾件資訊收集的部分29%入侵嘗試類的差不多21%入侵攻擊類15%像這些來講喔台灣資安大聯盟也敗會了立法院的三個黨團啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8755.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8756.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8783.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8808.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
因為我知道你們版本有治安長是但立法院現在是治安是由副名長兼任由副名長兼任治安因為有涉及維安各方面都是副名長他的權利但你們版本來我要看一下到底治安的這個他的職長到底是什麼那我們會再演繹看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8809.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8829.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我們現在很怕一些東西外流害客就是說我們要怎麼把我們的資通安全強化我們立法院這樣的一個治安的一個韌性這個有效去強化這整個資通安全的一個維護我相信這個有待周秘書長全面性的做一個規劃然後把這些執行資通安全的一個業務把它做一個更完善或國會的議事運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8838.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8839.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
指通安全這個部分。 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8840.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8845.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
謝謝 謝謝我們接下來請羅志強委員發言。那羅委員發言結束後我們休息五分鐘依照剛剛的宣示。 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8876.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8896.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
主席有請立法院、司法院還有法務部。主席有請立法院、司法院還有法務部。首先我想第一個就叫三位幫我們開示一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8901.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8921.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
科建民民進黨的總召曾經說過國情報告他主張急問急答請問一下秘書長你覺得有沒有違憲我上次有已經報告過吧因為這一個本身就是我們立完這一個行程因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8923.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8948.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
國情報告到立法院來我們有決定權我上次也跟委員報告過吧那至於15條之事怎麼修當然我們有立法政策的形成嘛對所以這是立法政策形成的權利我們有選擇的處理對好就是剛剛秘書長講這立法這個的形成的權利嘛那我想請教這個副秘書長你覺得柯建民說國情報告採急問急答你覺得違憲了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8950.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8970.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
跟委員報告吼,那就我們司法院憲法法庭到現在為止目前並沒有相關的這個解釋啦,那那司法院基本上我們是負責司法行政的,並不適合就合不合憲部分就表示意見。非常好,那我想請教現在在座的有大法官在座嗎?我們現在應該沒有大法官在座。沒有大法官在座,立法委員也不是大法官嘛,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8977.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8992.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那如果直接就喊說這個國情報告即問即答違憲最後是要誰來決定有沒有違憲?宮委員報告如果說將來有憲法的這個訴算的話當然是由大法官對啊就是大法官說了算啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8993.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9017.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我再想請教次長,柯建民總召說國情報告急問急答,你覺得有違憲嗎?這個是他個人表達意見,我們憲刑法確實是沒有急問急答。剛才周民眾也提到說將來修法有立法形成的空間,那最終會不會違反憲法的憲政的原理等等這些的話,最終的話是應該大法官才有的宣告。好,非常謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9018.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9041.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
所以這邊我先針對國情報告事實上國民黨版本叫做即時詢答啦那即時詢答其實有包括不同種模式即問即答是模式一疑問一答是模式二那至於統問統答是模式三所以換言之即時詢答也有不同的詢答模式這些事實上不只是可以透過立法形成 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9042.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9042.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓊 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9064.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9081.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
這個部分也對不管是憲法法庭過去的釋憲案對此也並沒有做出一個判斷所以換言之這個部分我還是比較傾向認同剛剛我們周秘書長講的他應該是一個立法形成的一個權利所以讓立法院來進行決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9083.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9084.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
國會聽證調查立法院的調查權不是為司法不是為監察而是基於質詢權 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9103.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9127.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
立法院的調查權是基於立法院的質詢權、議決權而生的。請問賴清德委員當時連署的法案的立法委員,我不知道秘書長您覺得2009年他這個說法有違憲問題嗎?沒有啊。沒有嗎?對,那我們的副秘書長覺得呢?一樣跟委員報告,因為我們是…也不是你決定,那次長您覺得呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9128.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9146.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
五八五號解釋是有肯認立法院有調查權不過他的範圍還是在憲政的範圍之下來做處理對啊就基本上認為調查權是這個立法的固有權利嘛好伴隨立法院的議案權跟質詢權事實上調查權是他固有權這也是我在引一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9147.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9164.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
我們非常尊敬的一個政界的一個前輩高雄市長陳其邁他也曾經公開主張當立法院失去了調查權他就是一個無牙的老虎事實上是侵犯今天憲政上立法院的該有的一個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9165.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9179.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
所以因此在這邊其實當然立法院聽證調查該如何進行是讓全世界各國多有實力嘛能不能請我們的秘書長跟大家稍微介紹一下其他國家聽證調查大概的範例是 範式是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9182.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9204.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我們法治局有針對這個國會的這個聽證調查他是有做過研究大概有他的範圍上不完全是相同那因為我們有585號的解釋在裡面585號解釋裡面他就對於他的範圍上可能有做一些限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9205.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9221.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
所以我們委員裡面有很多版本也是有把它排除啦比如像這個行政特權啦等等我基本人權大概都必須要稍微有點把它排除在外 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9221.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9225.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
則在範圍裏面。至於聽證調查裏面相關於範圍、界限甚至於類似國會的藐視,因為沒有國家是不會一樣的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9243.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9253.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
法制局在做研究是提供給各位委員去參考各個國家制度上的設計那我們也做了一個很厚的一本這個聽證調查權的一個報告給各位委員參考。 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9257.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9273.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我非常謝謝周秘書長,實際上你那個報告我也看過了。以依照目前來看的話,全世界各國對於聽證調查的行使的方式跟範圍有寬有廣,規範的程序也未必完全一致。 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9273.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9290.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
但是很多主要的民主的國家基本上國會都是有聽證調查的所以這種情況之下這也是顯現我們今天立法院在這個民主國家的發展過程當中其實這個部分我認為是退步的是不夠進步的 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9291.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9310.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那這次國會改革法案就是要能夠補充不管是我們四至五八五號講的我們立法職能的缺陷事實上也是要跟進全世界各個主要的民主國家所採取的聽證調查制度這樣的一個我這樣的一個認知我不知道秘書長認不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9312.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9333.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
因為這個本來585號解釋以後就從我們當時這個職權行使法是在文件調閱在88年的時候是以325號解釋做基礎的那585號解釋以後就不一樣了所以多數的委員對於這一個部分是需要填補的 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9334.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9354.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
議員楊瓔 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9354.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9357.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9371.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9387.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
民進黨在我們這次國民黨團提出的國會改革法案提出之前現在的民進黨的51位立法委員扣除14位新科37位就任立委裡面有31位高達84%過去都簽署過相關國會聽證調查的國會改革法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9394.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9419.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那麼也就是說事實上以我們現在司法法制委員會民進黨的司法法制委員裡面柯建民吳思瑤鍾嘉斌莊瑞雄陳俊宇審發會委員其中也只有陳俊宇在過去我沒有查到有關於國會改革的一些主張那當然國會改革聽證調查的內容要怎麼設計我覺得大家可以再去 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9420.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9431.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案 案 議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9451.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9451.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
呃,這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9456.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9480.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
有些是行政法裏面在處理 有些是刑法那因為我剛報告解釋裏面它是有一點線索性所以在現在就變成每一個委員的提案版本有些是增加刑法所以我才報告裏會提到學者的主張都不一樣我在我們法治局請學者來不一樣所以我才說這是由立法政策的這個選擇是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9482.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9501.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
謝謝秘書長。那事實上我也看過相關的報告啦。基本上針對行政法、行使法在其他國家的立法例都有啦。都有。那當然一個輕一個重嘛。那至於在我們接下來國會改革法案當中至少藐視國會該有相當的處罰或是妨礙聽證調查該有相當的處罰這一點不違憲吧。至少處罰這件事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9508.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9519.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
主要是在五八合集是有有沒錯嘛那只是處罰的形式跟手段跟程度那可能有討論的空間那也很簡單就交給我們將來審議法案當中我們來討論什麼樣的處罰和比例性什麼樣的處罰比較可能是憲政稍所允許什麼樣的處罰按照世界各國例子來講比較能夠輔佐立法院的職能這個應該都可以透過立法形成的過程當中我們來進一步的來確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9540.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9541.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
楊瓊瓔等25人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9574.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9579.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9881.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9885.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
好我們現在開始開會接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9902.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9930.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
主席、在場的委員先進、列席任務機關所長、官員、會長、觀眾夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請立法院周秘書長、司法院黃副秘書長以及法務部陳次長。好,請秘書長、副秘書長還有次長。秘書長好、副秘書長好、次長好。先請教秘書長,我們今天談國會改革,我的標題寫得很清楚。 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9931.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9951.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
建權國會非擴權我們是建權沒有擴權要建權國會的調查權你同意嗎這不是擴權嗎對但是我們建權我們不是擴權但可不可以濫權可不可以濫權不可以濫權什麼情況會濫權權責不符就容易濫權好再來你不認為國會權是監督行政權的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9961.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9987.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
好,那我們是監督官員嘛,是不是?但是官員,行政官員是不是只有國會可以監督?監察院可不可以監督?我是問你嘛,監察院可不可以監督官員?對,所以監督官員是國會的天職,但不是只有國會可以監督,包括監察權,包括司法權,所以我們不能越權,你同不同意? |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9989.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9998.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我們也在報告裡面有寫喔對很好但是我們是監督官員請問國會是用來監督人民的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10000.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10006.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
國外不是監督人民所以我們不能侵犯人權你同意嗎對不能侵犯好那我接下來問三位一個問題來權力分立跟權責分際今天報紙的頭條有本院 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10024.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10053.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
財政委員昭偉要求保險局邀受險公司老闆參敘而且還指限定市攬辦的委員可以參加民進黨都不能來請問一下副秘書長你覺得這個有什麼爭議?副秘書長你認為這有什麼爭議?當然我看媒體上面是寫說權限那當然是什麼爭議?爭議在哪裡?那到底適合不適合你認為適不適合?可能將來我們在司法行政可能就這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10054.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10083.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
好我再問你來次長你認為如果說我們說有人是球員有人是裁判假設金管會是裁判他來監督受險業者受險業者球員是不是這樣那球員可不可以兼裁判不宜嘛好那假設很多人某個大碗邀請了裁判邀請了球員一起私下聚餐你覺得看在球迷眼中他們要幹什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10084.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10110.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
基本上這樣啦應該在整個行政或是包括我是問你我的狀況啊如果有個大碗他邀了球員邀了裁判私下聚餐討論明天的事情你覺得看在球迷的眼中他們在幹嘛中間是不是有作弊或什麼會不會要遷土啊是不是這樣子所以我們看看啊這一位委員啊我過去也在財政委員會我也當過召委我也當過教育委員會的召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10111.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10136.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
如果不是財政委會教育委員會會請教育委員會管的這些部會主管跟委員們聯絡感情可不可以你認為可不可以可以那這位委員他在去年選舉前他辦個公聽會關心CFC然後呢他請了官員來請了業者來底下還附上他個人的政治先進專務你覺得他在暗示什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10139.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10164.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我們開公聽會需要附一個政治先進專務嗎?這個應該在國會來講齁,我也不好批評,但是國會要有自律也行。自律,很好。你奉獻講到這。一個立委在院外既有的職權都可以搞到這個程度了,你覺得社會放心給他調查權嗎?我們看下一頁。請問司法院副廳,副秘書長。法官可以私下約被告吃飯嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10165.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10191.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那就法官的部分當然是不行請問次長檢察官可以私下約當事人吃飯嗎?不可以好請問秘書長金管會為了維持金融秩序的穩定監督金管會的人就叫立法委員可以要求金管會邀請授權業者有沒有濫權的問題?這要看呢什麼狀況我就問你啊請吃飯可不可以啊有沒有瓜田李孝志前 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10195.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10215.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
你不太清楚,你在私下問委員。但是我們下一頁,我們社會在擔心什麼?如果國會的聽證權能夠傳喚民間企業,他就有可能私設刑堂啊。立法院可以將民眾移送法辦嗎?請問秘書長,可不可以?現行法可不可以?現行法可不可以?我問你秘書長啊,立法院可以將民眾移送法辦嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10224.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10249.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
但是國民黨楊瓊瓔版本75條之二副總召的版本乎且針對國民黨黨團版本48條第二項還加上刑法第141條之一民眾如果不接受立法院的傳犯他會吃上刑責你有沒有看到有沒有看到這一條有沒有有嗎條文有寫嗎縱使如此我們看到民眾黨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10251.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10260.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
民眾黨呢他把他的調查的對象擴及到不只是行政機關或官員擴及到一般人民如果一般人民拒絕還可以罰還 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10262.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10291.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
民進黨不是過去沒有這樣的思考。過去的版本我們也曾經將調查的對象、苛責的範圍擴及到非行政機關以外。但是由於涉及到行政、涉及到划環,我們的版本有罰環,有對機關刻意划環的義務。但是我們的版本從來沒有要求把人民叫來不聽、叫罰款,甚至像復原的版本一樣、附送的版本一樣要送刑法,有沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10293.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10317.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
國民黨黨團們有沒有?有沒有要送刑法?將民眾入罪啊!好 我們看下一頁如果立法委員對企業不滿我開個公聽會我附了我的政治獻金專號你都沒有表示我開公聽會傳喚企業來可不可以在公然的國會施設刑堂用刑法入罪辦企業辦人民可不可以?你同意嗎?你接受嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10323.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10342.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
這就是我們版本最大的差別民進黨不是不想健全國會調查權我們也放盡了要求必須行政機關有出列席的義務有提供文件調閱的義務我們也加上了罰款但是我們不會把人民當作我們調查的主體下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10344.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10368.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
比較擴權社會擔心的是立法院濫權。立法院調查權有限制要維持權力分立的原則。我們跟憲法職權有關的觀點可以。但是我們不能去侵犯其他憲政機關、最高機關、憲法保障的職權。也不能影響政府運作的行政特權。立委可以濫用調查權滿足個人利益嗎?請問次長你覺得可以接受嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10369.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10399.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
應該不會應該不會你說的很好應該不會下一頁但是五人一會了呢今天我們看到國民黨的委員國防委員會的召委案件還在調查中他在3月20日以召委身份安排召開國安局機密會議請問立委召開機密會議的目的幹嘛來我告訴你目前因為調閱而取得的秘密有沒有保密的義務傅平書長你認為如果國會因調查而取得的秘密有沒有保密的義務有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10400.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10425.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
看到相關的這些草案裡面是有這個要有保密的義務這也是民進黨的版本要求國會要健全你要健全你的調查權你要全責相輔啊你要負有保密的義務你可不可以拿到機密資料之後馬上洩密副秘書長可不可以可不可以這些如果涉及到一些國家安全或者是其他的人的權益的話當然這個要做權衡啦副秘書長周秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10428.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10455.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
您宣稱是我們韓院長特別把你重出江湖請來的過去我在國民大會的時候我們有一個吳萬德議事組主任您那時候您是比他好像高一屆還是第一屆您是周萬來議事的權威專家兩邊都萬來萬去啊一個萬德一個萬來我們都佩服你對議事的了解但是你看一看目前這些版本我個人認為有兩道紅線 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10457.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10475.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
各黨團要提版本可以健全國會的調查權但是這兩條紅線不能踩第一不得假借調查之名行洩密之實你同不同意未來我們職權行使法的規範可以調查但要對洩密刻以刑責你同不同意當然很好那立法委員可不可以假借聽證之名行恐惡之實 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10485.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10492.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
五八五有說可以立法院行使職權為了調查所需可以請人民來怎樣表示意見嘛五八五有說可以把人民送去刑法嗎送去法院嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10514.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10518.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
司法院副院副院副院長有沒有你對你的了解585號可以這樣做嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10519.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10546.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
五八五號是在調查的時候可以詢問他可以詢問嘛他要釐清立法院行使調查權的時候不會去侵犯司法院的司法審判也不會對於侵犯監察院對官員事後的調查嘛是不是這樣五八五號文字上面是這樣但是真正的意思可能我們司法行使當然你不是大法官哪天你是大法官我們再請教你所以民主黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10547.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10562.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我們在這裏講很清楚請我們各黨團國會要健全但不是擴全更不能濫權我們國會要監督官員不能越權更不能侵犯人民的權利謝謝好 謝謝我們接下來請副委員昆齊發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10581.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10598.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
主席各位同仁所有列席的各位首長今天是一個在歷史上非常重要的一天我想今天吳宗憲吳主席吳昭偉來主持國會無法的改革我想我們要堅持 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10599.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10618.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
立法院就是要改革國會是要爭取全國的半邊天我們是承襲了百分之百的民意我們各位要做好每一樣該讓國人了解清楚的事項我想今天民進黨政府在台南主政 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10619.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10648.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
八十八槍開完以後又開了十槍十槍開完又當街的槍殺已經到了一個無政府的狀態中間為什麼敢光天化日在大馬路上行兇後面牽扯的利益到底有多大為什麼關係到2300萬人安危的疫苗採購我們的衛福部能夠不讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10650.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10670.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
國會能夠了解不能採購的原因是什麼?花了8400億為什麼買不到疫苗?原因是什麼?為什麼要擋BNT?原因是什麼?這中間有多少官商勾結?雞蛋為什麼要買巴西蛋? |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10672.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10699.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
為什麼快篩劑要小吃店來進口有多少官員跟民間的勾結這個都是在當司法權當這些國會執政黨所掌握的多數不會完全掩蓋人民知的真相的時候這些早早應該送到 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10701.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10723.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
司法機關具法辦的這些重案當執政黨把它全數掩蓋貪污腐敗事實的時候國會是人民最後讓真相能夠大白的機構所以不管是政府官員、議會是中華民國、國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10724.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10752.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
在法律之前人人平等都不能迴避相關的這些責任今天國會改革非常清楚就是讓這些人讓所有的重大弊案無所遁形在國會能夠清楚的收到全民的監督做事實的調查立法院並不負責判刑更沒有所謂國會的恐嚇 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10753.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10782.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
我想國會的恐嚇過去一向都是執政黨的專利在這裡大聲咆哮在這裡掩蓋事實甚至前任的隔壁蘇貞昌還可以公然表達什麼案子可以不用查NCC的誰可以不用查陳曉香可以不用查是隔空案事法務部不要查是嗎當一個國家已經腐敗到 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10784.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10812.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
行政機關就是貪污腐敗的核心就像詐騙集團是從台灣行銷到全世界因為一個詐騙的政府代代相傳現在已經成為世界奇蹟全世界的詐騙竟然是從台灣成為發源地這台灣之恥我想今天當國會效能不彰就任由 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10813.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10814.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10835.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10835.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10854.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10882.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
國會聽證必不必保是國會可以判你的刑但是我們是當他交給司法機構去審判我們還是尊重國家應有的體制該由司法審判的由司法來審判該由國會調查的由國會來調查分權非常的清楚但是從2012年到2016年到現在已經民國第幾年所有民進黨所提出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10884.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10905.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
國會改革的相關的這些法令已經八年了民進黨執政邁入第九年有開過聽證會嗎?零次有開過任何調查權的公聽會嗎?零次今天在這裡此言在此的此言國會改革有如何重要?無恥 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10908.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10932.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
只剩了八年把自己對人民的承諾完全踐踏在土地上還有此言在這裡由臉講要需要時間需要完備需要公聽會這會期二月一號到現在民進黨什麼時候說要開國公聽會了民進黨沒有召委嗎難道一定要法條才能開公聽會嗎任何時間都可以開公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10936.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10962.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
只要對國家必須要探討的事情,隨時都會開公聽會。我們在這裡,針對對民進黨的腐敗至此,我們真的非常非常的覺得是真的台灣奇蹟。詐騙治國,毀憲亂政,莫此為勝。我們的法務部有多少案子沒有辦法辦,因為上上級的交代,壓力之大,沒有辦法辦。在這裡,我們真的很好奇, |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10966.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10995.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
有這麼多的國家重案到底辦到哪裡去了還有日文可以封藏30年疫苗採購封藏30年竟然民進黨提的國會改革法案竟然未來的調查權是由所在行政主管機關來認定是不是機密還把行政權擴權比現在還更慘我希望啊民進黨所提出來的國會改革武法 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10997.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11017.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
經過了這麼多年此言國會改革在選舉的時候詐騙全國的人民選後完全一場誤會到今天在野黨聯合起來要求國會能夠讓陽光照進來此時民進黨突然煥然甦醒了開始說他要提自體版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11018.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11044.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
提了8年提了12年你的版本在哪裡到今天還有此言在這裡大言不慚破壞議事程序還要開什麼公聽會要怎麼樣我們真的不了解這樣的一個政權已經從800多萬票淪落成500萬票還不了解民眾要下架民進黨此時此刻我們只有一個任務要反映全台灣人民的 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11045.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11052.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
就是我們必須讓陽光能夠照進國會照進中央政府所有的中央政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11053.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11076.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
該查的事就要查。要全部在全國國人的監督之下一起讓我們的立志能夠親民。讓我們的國家能夠步入正軌。這是我們該做的事情。很抱歉那個秘書長、副秘書長還有我們部會代表因為你們今天來沒有一個人能夠做決定。我們很清楚。所以本席不為難你們。 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11078.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11106.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
也不要讓為了你們也答不出來大家都很辛苦我們要講的立場非常清楚國民黨就是要國會改革讓台灣不能再腐敗下去不管哪一個黨執政都不能一黨獨大貪贓枉法台灣已經到了沒有枉法的地步詐騙集團橫行打詐越打越詐因為國家就是最大的詐騙集團我們都不曉得如何教育下一代我們在這裡再一次的強調國會改革無法一定要成功 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11107.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11133.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
請民進黨像一個有骨氣的政黨不要再阻撓讓陽光照進國會應該民進黨應該耳手沉靜國會改革讓大家有權利來監督政府讓這個政府能夠有效能能夠不腐敗能夠為人民來做事這應該執政黨要拜託大家拜託在野黨一起共同來趕快推動修法的而不是在這裡阻撓下西下井我們在這裡再一次啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11134.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11155.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
希望我們主席下次他們在打煙霧彈的時候破壞整個議事程序的時候千萬我們要硬起來我們今天代表的是全台灣人民的民意就是國會要改革這個禮拜一定要把它完成民進黨如果任何的意義很簡單依照法律來走你要請下巴法庭來解釋可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11156.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11158.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11183.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11183.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我們接下來請吳思瑤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11216.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11217.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
謝謝主席 有請周恩來秘書長好 請秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11222.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11224.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
國會改革一定要成功但是國會改革要走在對的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11251.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11268.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
國會改革不是國會擴權國會有權就要有責民主進步黨絕對支持國會改革但是要在正確的方向在合憲合規的方向在權責相輔的方向下業我想秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11272.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11290.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
其實這個問題也不用就教於您了我們只要有基本的公民素養都知道這個法律未接的基本概念就是這個金三角最下面是行政命令中間是法律上面是憲法換言之任何的修法不能夠凌駕憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11292.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11306.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
而右邊這個圖呢也就是藍色的線就是國民黨現在跟民眾黨藍白兩黨的版本他們的國會改革是權大於責甚至就是一味的擴權 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11307.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11331.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
綠色的線是民主進步黨的版本我們力求權責相符當我們給了國會更大的權力我們就要要求立委自身的問責跟克責問政監督的量能要予以提升所以首先我要先再次強調民進黨國會改革的幾個重大立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11332.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11351.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
國會改革不是兒戲不能競相喊架重大的法案召開公聽會這個程序正義我們一定要捍衛第二個立場就如同剛剛這個金字塔該修憲就修憲修法是不能凌駕憲法的第三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11352.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11369.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
如果在野黨強行以多數來通過違憲的國會改革法案,那民進黨將會申請我們的憲法法庭予以釋憲,進行快速的處分來暫緩實行。過去也有這樣的例子。這是民進黨的三大立場下頁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11371.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11380.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
民眾黨在這裡喔你一定非常的印象深刻歷屆的修憲在立法院公聽會是開好開滿的甚至是藍綠執政的時候都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11386.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11399.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
我今天舉出了三屆第十屆針對修憲的議案開了兩場公聽會而第十屆的公聽會我仍就在這個國會現場針對三權分立是不是要廢考監這是一個憲政層級的討論而憲政層級的討論是不是要三權分立還是維持五權分立它就跟國會的職能息息相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11411.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11426.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
第8屆開了10場的公聽會在修憲的時候他同樣的基於五權分立要不要改成三權分立這也跟國會的職權息息相關所以有10場的公聽會那個時候是國民黨基於國會多數 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11427.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11444.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
第五屆修憲是不是要實行單一選區是不是要實行我們立委的檢辦開了六場公聽會這同樣是攸關憲政層級所以說國會改革就是憲政配套之一律師王你同意我的意思吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11446.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11470.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
公聽會本身是由委員會回答我的問題博會改革跟憲政相關他是必要的配套要一併的考慮公聽會的舉行並不一定是說會必要不必要你按一個議題當然有委員會自己的裁定那我剛剛那您覺得我們第5屆第8屆第10屆開了這麼多場公聽會是不是能夠有利於匯聚我們很多的修憲共識公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11473.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11478.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
國會改革就是憲政制度的配套之一過去修憲我們嚴謹的透過公聽會擴大了民間的參與擴大的專業的參與我相信這一次我們如果能夠擴大這樣的參與是更好的下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11502.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11516.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
所以說公聽會是有利於法案審議有利於匯聚社會共識我要再次說明這一次我們為什麼需要公聽會因為國會改革的法案有夠多目前國民黨民眾黨提了20案民進黨的黨版進來個別委員的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11521.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11544.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
法案進來可能有二、三十案法案多的時候就需要花多一點時間來彙據共識第二個國會改革的層面廣當然涉及修憲我就不再贅述第三點正因為多年來社會沒有共識今天一整個上午很多在野黨的委員說國會改革講了20年不用再討論了直接修就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11550.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11551.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
為什麼國民黨害怕公聽會呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11567.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11583.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
為什麼國民黨害怕社會參與呢?為什麼國民黨害怕專業界的專家學者一起參與討論呢?難道國民黨害怕公聽會是因為他們經不起社會檢驗的版本在公聽會的討論之下會一一現形嗎?我相信不是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11588.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11601.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
所以有公聽會Why not?任何一個爭議法案有公聽會就是幫立法院一把社會共識可以讓我們更有力的走在一起下一頁借其不連續 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11604.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11623.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
周恩來老師您的書寫很多這是國會運作的ABC借其不連續因為新國會有新名義因為新國會有新名義更何況本屆的新國會裡頭有很多的新名義就像我們在座的翁小林委員他是法學博士 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11625.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11637.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
所以有新民意有新的專業藉其不連續任何的法案就應當重新來討論。這就是您書上所說的嘛。新民意就是讓新的議案有重新討論界定的機會。對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11640.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11659.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
所以為什麼國民黨委員一直在說過去討論了幾十年了這一切就不用再討論了就完全推翻了藉其不連續的國會運作原理秘書長您一直點頭如倒算您接受我的看法下一頁我要很嚴正的說 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11660.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11687.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
很多國民黨民眾黨的委員一直拿民進黨2012或2016的版本來檢視今天2024民進黨的版本難道2024的此時此刻任何一個人生活在這一個時空2024的人一定要對於過去的主張照單全收嗎?如果是這樣的話社會不需要進步修法就是木乃伊就好了修法不是修文化資產欸復旧如舊欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11691.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11707.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
為什麼2016民進黨的國會改革版本沒有強行通過民進黨是國會多數正因為社會沒有共識民進黨願意花時間在跟社會對話所以在民進黨即使是國會多數的時候2016民進黨的黨版國會改革沒有強度關山我要把這樣一個歷史的經驗分享給國民黨的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11715.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11742.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
第二個問題2016跟2024今天的國會改革版本不同不行嗎我要再次說我這一次是民進黨的國會改革小組的召集人當我們在審議在討論法案的時候我們很真切的回到過去的版本確實有違憲之餘確實沒有社會足夠的支持所以這一次我們把版本重新檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11744.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11763.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
沒有全盤照收因為社會在與時俱進我們的法案當然要與時俱進這也是借其不連續很重要的一個精神所以秘書長我在這裡要橫平的說如果承認過去的主張今天此時此刻的時空背景改變了 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11764.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11786.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我們沒有勇敢去修正的話我認為才愧對良心我作為2024民進黨黨版的國會改革法案的交集人我要說也許五年後十年後那個時候2035年再回來開2024年的民進黨的國會改革版本都還有很大改善的空間因為時代會改變嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11787.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11802.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
所以我在這裡要告訴所有的國民黨民眾黨的委員不要給人家扣帽子當年民進黨這樣講今年你就一定要照單全收那就是一個不進步那就是一個法案的木乃伊而已下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11803.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11821.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
所以如果同一標準過去的主張不能改國民黨更是自打嘴巴啊針對總統到立法院急問急答這件事情2015的馬英九辦公室總統辦公室說總統到國會被巡視違反憲法我們的王金平院長2015年說 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11823.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11834.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
只要總統來國會接受備詢就是違憲所以主張不是不能改啊不能去脈絡化啊如果國民黨說民進黨過去的版本就一定要汗手到底那國民黨看看當年你們自己說總統來國會備詢急問急答是違憲的你們的馬英九前總統這麼說你們的王金平前院長這麼說下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11848.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11859.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
更何況國民黨的智庫針對總統到國會能不能夠急問急答而且常態化的備詢都說這是違憲這是國際的笑話好下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11864.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11886.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我最後一點點時間謝謝主席多給我一分鐘國會改革不是國會擴權權責相符才是真改革我們的法案今天會送出我也請立法院作為幕僚機關好好地來研議研究民進黨的版本有不好的地方我們接受可以在審查的過程再做討論因為這就是國會存在的意義嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11890.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11906.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
透過討論透過對於社會的對話透過專業的參與透過不同政黨的委員集思廣益我們才能讓國會真正的改革前進啊所以我跟您預告我們的版本裡頭有非常多是國會的自我要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11907.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11920.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我們唯有提升自我的問政量能我們唯有協助立法院給予更多的資源幫助我們的法治局跟預算中心有更鬆綁的人士可以去聘任外界更專業的人員進來我們的問政量能才能提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11925.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11938.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
國會需要跟上國際我們需要新的資通安全處國會要有資安長才能夠讓國會的所有資訊安全的防火牆建立得更完善我相信秘書長都會支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11940.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11959.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
打造一個權責相符的專業國會幫國會議員的問政的必要的幕僚功能提升這是幫立法院一把幫國家一把您都支持吧謝謝我會把你們版本交給法治局一併去研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11960.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11983.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以法治局跟預算中心正是我們需要大大提升他們的相關量能跟給予資源所以我最後的結論就是任何的法案在慎重的討論過程當中我們就是對話而不是一再的傾斜於擴權的改革我想社會不會支持如果國會不自我要求一味的自我擴權 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11986.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11997.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
國會對於人民擺出要改革的起手式,這不會是一個好的典範。大家三思。謝謝我時間到了。謝謝麗爽,謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12008.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12026.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
謝謝主席我想我還是要重申今天我們這個國會改革無法的改革尤其是國會的聽證調查權我想民進黨一直主張說這個部分什麼擴權該護士要委員講我們擴權我想這嚴重了 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12030.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12049.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
此部分大家可以討論,但是絕對沒有所謂的立法院擴權這樣子的一個說法,這是不存在的。好,我們先講這個立法院院長的記名投票這部分。那我想這個記名投票這部分,到底學界還有存有爭議? |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12051.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12065.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
但是我要這個想說的就是要告訴民眾的基於民意責任及陽光政治的理念立法委員在立法院內的表決應該要公開要用顯明的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12066.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12092.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
所以包含了競民投票、唱名表決、舉手表決等屬於讓我們的民眾得知我們身為國會議員我們代表民意我們這個投票的方式所以政府院長的選舉也應該採取競民投票的方式那比較妥當也可以落實資訊公開讓我們的人民充分了解民意代表的決策 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12094.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12096.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
議員楊瓊瓔,您同意嗎?議員楊瓊瓔,您同意嗎?議員楊瓔,您同意嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12120.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12138.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
議員楊瓊瓔 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12138.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12153.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
議員楊瓊瓔 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12154.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12177.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
委員職權權能的一個行使,他的性質其實是一種意識行為,這跟我們人民的行使參政權選舉公職人員性質截然是不同的,所以不能相提並論。因此與憲法第129條根本沒有連帶關係,所以不一定要採取吳敬明投票的方式。 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12179.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12203.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我這樣說對嗎?因為他跟林委員報告因為林委員也是學法啦因為當時是大法官大法官像我們吳老師吳剛他就認為這個是沒有但是李偉忠教授中興大學李偉忠教授他認為是當然啦每一位教授他的看法我們都尊重但是我現在覺得我們立法委員也要有自己的看法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12205.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12212.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以我們看法認為這個根本沒有違憲的問題。所以大家都沒有正義啦。你會看法也一樣嘛,沒有違憲嘛。好,謝謝。來,現在來講國會調查權啦。那我想這個我先直接請教這個秘書長,你對於我們立法委員擁有國會調查權,你是持肯定的態度還是否定的態度? |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12229.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12241.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
五八五已經解釋了,我們有立法院調查權了。是,我想五八五好解釋他也講得很清楚,就是說立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予的立法職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12243.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12243.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12260.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12278.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
但是該號解釋也強調就是說我們立法院行使調查權的方式並不以要求有機關就立法院行使職權所涉及的事項提供參考資料為限就是我們還可以向他調閱文件的原本 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12280.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12281.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
並得對違反協助調查義務者處以法源的處分。 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12298.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12314.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
並於這個必要的範圍內是以合理的強制手段,使立法院的調查權的行使更為完整,並有助立法院之前行使過程中相關資訊的收集,所以立法院聽證權有法制化的必要。 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12316.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12344.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
所以民主黨根據我剛才講的這段陳述就是也是4585號他的一個解釋的一個精神的一個的主要的意旨所以你也是贊同國會要有調查權那另外就是說從這段意旨裡面也認為說我們國會要有這個把那個藐視國會罪這部分要這個有法制化這個你認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12346.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12366.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我認同但是因為這一個因為我們裡面這裡面原來這個調查局裡面剛才林委剛才也練過這58號警示裡面的內容所以我們法治局在當時在做這個報告的時候也請了好幾個學者專家來對於這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12369.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12390.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
議員楊瓊瓔 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12392.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12407.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
世界各國的立法例我們看一下其實我們看各國的國會調查權可以知道不論是法國的國會職權行使法美國的議事規則德國的聯邦議事規則或者日本的議會政研法 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12408.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12430.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
多有國會強制權的附屬武器。原則上就是調查實施的時候受調查者如果沒有正當理由拒絕證言或者提供這個拒絕提供相關的資訊文件者應受有懲處一如罰金或刑責有罰金也有刑責不限於說只有這個法源而已如作偽證者一同 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12431.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12453.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我國過去在監察院實施調查權的相關規範中都完全沒有相關的一個規定但在4至585號解釋中我剛才講的他已經承認應該有這類的一個刑罰所以其實立法院的行使調查權跟監察院是不同的我們立法院如果要行使國會調查權我們就必須對於這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12456.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12474.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具具決證原虛偽證原或者虛偽陳述或者不願意隱匿這個相關文件不願意提供文件的我們必須要去立法讓這些這個具決提供的藐視國會的必須要去做到相當的懲處世界各國都有相關的立法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12475.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12501.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
其實我想講的就是說其實我們為什麼要抗我發覺民進黨一直在抗拒這些國會無法的一個立法抗拒我們的國會的每位立法委員擁有這些聽證調查權以及對於我們的相關的官員如果為拒絕陳述不願意提供資料我們要刻意相關的一個懲處不限於說只是行政法院而已甚至刑責也是OK的 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12503.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12503.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12528.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12549.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
五八號解釋作為基礎再去做這個。七十六三三號解釋也認為說我們裁罰就是我們行使裁罰不管是用刑罰或者是用行政法完只要他的要件及標準有明確而且讓受規範者得預見其行為的可罰性 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12550.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12572.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
且其規定得經司法審查加以確認,這個就符合我們刑法23條比例原則以及法律的明確性原則的要求。所以相關的解釋也做這樣子的一個說法。所以沒有違憲的問題吧,民主黨,因為你答得還是很曖昧,到底有沒有,如果用刑法來去處罰,你認為有違憲嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12575.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12577.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我本身是說必須在符合58號解釋的情況下做處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12592.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12606.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
各位委員如果在整個立法過程當中,如果認為是要用刑法,那我們也尊重。以不了立場,我們不以表釋。我剛剛已經論述非常多了,其實也沒有違憲的問題啦。因為最後一個問題,我還是要再次跟你請教我們總統的這個國情報告這部分。 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12616.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12630.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我聽到很多民進黨的委員講說我們現在是總統制參照美國美國的總統只要來做國情諮詢做國情諮問之後他可以不接受詢問然後一直強調說總統來做國情報告接受我們委員的疑問疑答一直說違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12639.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12643.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案。�� |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12662.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12663.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
二（委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案。�� |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12691.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12691.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12709.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12727.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
他已經不是獨立行使職權的行政首長只是總統的幕僚長總統隨時認為說他的意見跟總統不一樣的話總統可以去馬上把他免除他的一個職務馬上可以換人啦所以實際上我們現在的總統是有權無責啊所以難道我們代表人民的國會在他來做國情報告的時候我們沒有權利對他做一個詢問嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12738.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12740.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
總統必須來做國情報告吧。 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12765.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12786.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
總統他自己也答應了說他願意來國會但是只對於說我們尋答的方式他有意見但是我們是認為急問急答才符合我們現在的國情總統不能有權無責總統有必要接受我們立法委員的質詢而且要採急問急答的方式才有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12788.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12788.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
主席貴委員有請秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12821.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12845.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
主委好秘書長好我接受剛才林思明委員的一個質詢就誠如剛才他這個林思明委員所講的這個現在的我們的憲法這個也不是雙手掌制也不知道什麼字啊所以在這樣的情形之下我們立法院更要就我們應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12847.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12847.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12865.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12893.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
司政的方針、司政的各個部會甚至各個部會的首長也都是總統在決定對不對?最近媒體不是在報導嗎?誰是部長啊?誰是主委啊?有沒有?從這個就可以知道決定權不是行政院院長各部會首長的決定權不在行政院院長是在總統所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12896.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12916.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
到底要怎麼樣去這個就現有的憲法的徵修條文第4條所謂的國情報告要怎麼去落實然後在不違憲的情況之下還沒有修憲之前的情況之下怎麼樣讓這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12919.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12946.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
代表人民的立法委員能夠去好好地去詢問總統。所以本席也有提出這個立法院職權行使法的部分條文的修正。像我們現在現行的條文還特別提到就國家安全大政方針。 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12948.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12969.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
我認為這個就太限收了啦。立法院太限收自己的職權。為什麼?憲法徵修條文沒有這樣規定嘛。嗯。啊。秘書長。政委已經提過了。提過了。像原民政策啊。欸。對。欸。政委上次也提過了。對對對。這個秘書長的記憶力很好。這個我來講述哈。 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12976.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12999.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
我上次沒有講的補充補充這個過去陳水扁總統的時代這個各政黨的立法委員還有機會跟他去到地方的時候還會還會見到還可以見到的可以反映意見馬英九執政的時候馬總統只要出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13001.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13017.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
當地的立委不分藍綠都會通知陳水扁總統也是這樣因為我以前是公務人員常常有時候要去藍綠立委都有但是蔡總統8年執政我沒有機會碰到總統反而我們一些的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13025.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13046.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
成立了所謂原住民主轉型正義委員會總統親自主持他們還可以發言我們連機會都沒有所以如果又限縮在國家安全大政方針馬上總統說這個不是國家安全大政方針不予回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13049.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13077.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
就會有這樣的一個所以何況這個也不是在憲法徵修條文裡面所明定的所以應該一定要把這個國家安全大政方針這幾個字一定要刪除然後呢現行的條文這個立法委員與總統國情報告完畢後得就報告不明了處提出問題然後還有政黨比例什麼人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13079.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13079.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13102.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13108.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
我贊成陳委員所提的意見。因為在修法過程當中是可以我們可以把這一個條文之間做一個修正。 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13125.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13146.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
這個部分我們希望在審查的時候能夠有所充分的討論。最後,原住民的立委也很少有機會跟你這樣的一個質詢。原住民的立委台澎金馬,現在在都會期有涉戶籍的已經49%點多了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13154.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13178.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
所以我們的嫌棄這麼大我接下來談的跟今天的法案無關要請秘書長會同相關的處因為整個很多的設計都是以七一立委的來設計以七一立委的來設計所以這個很多不合理之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13179.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13180.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13206.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13207.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13235.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13235.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
翁曉琳委員陳次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13258.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13258.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
國會改革法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13273.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13299.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
是一個國會擴權的法案本席在這邊感到非常的感慨我們社會在與時俱進法制也在與時俱進唯獨民進黨是與時拒退他們忘記他們20年前甚至更早之前他們所提出來的國會改革以及相關強化國會監督的法案那麼如今他們拿了政權之後就 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13300.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13300.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13318.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13340.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
我們知道其實為了像是這個審理偵查以及調查一些個案的事實目前司法機關這個行政機關監察機關等等他們其實都設有調查權請問次長您覺得這個作為我們如果有國家重要權利而且肩負重要職責的權利機關調查權重不重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13343.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13343.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
三）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13361.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13385.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
在其他的立法例裡面有規避妨礙或拒絕調查是有一些行政法不過我跟委員報告一下585號解釋因為它層次比較高我現在沒有問到您有關於立法權的部分麻煩我們其實現在就有針對如果是不配合法院檢察機關或者是這個行政機關的相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13389.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13417.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
行為的處罰規定不管在刑法、行政訴訟法、民事訴訟法、刑事訴訟法甚至公平教育委員會都有行政調查權那這些有行政調查權或司法調查權的機關其實他們也會特別的要求如果是有違反這些調查義務這個無故缺席或是實問虛答甚至做偽證的都可予行政處罰以及刑法都有相關的罪責處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13418.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13419.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13435.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13457.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
二（委員是請問李署長我想您應該不會否認其實調查權應該是國家重要權利機關行使的一個重要的核心權利對是華爺五八化解釋也是在立法調查權是我們的權利啊好那請問一下那我們立法權的核心價值在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13458.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13485.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
對,就行使人民所賦予的這個職權嘛。包括含立法權、執行權等等要監督行政機關、施政等等重要的權利。那麼行使這些重要的職權,難道我們不應該要在有取得充分而且完整的資訊前提上,我們才能夠去執行我們的職權? |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13487.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13491.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
五、八號解釋以後我們有比較大的這個空間比較調查權比較擴大對立法院的職權行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13509.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13527.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
議員楊瓊瓔 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13528.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13549.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
那麼對於我們這一次我們這個國民黨以及民眾黨這裡委員所提出來的相關的國會改革法案裡面其實無非就是要強化將這個過去大法官在585號解釋裡面所說的要將立法調查權法制化 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13550.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13558.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
而這個法制化的程序其實已經拖了太久了已經非常多年都沒有好好的去討論所以我認為說這個不是一個新的議題而是長期以來大家不斷的在討論也希望能夠積極立法的一個議題那麼我也看了過去這個法治局其實也做了非常完整的報告那麼既然這個調查權這麼重要那麼對於不配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13578.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13607.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
調查的相關的人士您認為該不該予以處罰?在585解釋裡面就有強制手段嘛。是,所以科處罰環這個部分應該是核心而且合法的那當然現在委員們所提出來的版本各有不同對於罰環的額度各有不同那對於就是是否要處以刑責的部分我想剛剛其實秘書長也說了也都尊重立法委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13608.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13608.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13623.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13643.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
議員楊瓊瓊 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13643.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13660.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
議員楊瓊瓊 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13660.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13661.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13678.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13701.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
委員們他們所提出來的國會改革法案就本席看來他不過就是說對於立法院內部的自律以及行為所提出的這個相關的修法但是並沒有辦法真的去落實或是去強化國會監督行政機關或各個不同權力機關的權力那這個部分的話是我們這次 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13706.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13725.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
包括民眾黨以及國民黨黨團及委員這裡所提出國會改革法案最重要的目的就是要能夠強化我們立法院去監督各個不同的行政部門這個機關我們要有足夠的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13726.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13726.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13753.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13754.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
二（委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13761.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13785.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
國會若欠缺對事實的調查權將會做出合憲卻外行而且愚笨的判斷。這個部分就是提醒我們立法院當我們要希望我們能夠做出聰明而且合法合憲的判斷的時候必須要有足夠的事實調查權。以上謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13806.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13832.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
下一位請吳宗憲委員發言我們麻煩我們麻煩行政院副秘書長行政院副秘書長副秘書長我知道您的專業是 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13836.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13861.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
您的專業是大傳嘛傳播嘛但是有關一些法律的部分我想我還是要提出來一些東西啦那當然就是因為我有看過行政院這一次對於我們修法的一個報告因為我知道您主修不是法律所以就那個細節的部分我也不會為難但是我必須講喔要麻煩你們行政院裡面同仁認真一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13864.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13881.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
我待會會把資料給你看他不能牛頭不對馬嘴的來批評我們的提案如果他今天講說這個有什麼違憲之餘或什麼我覺得那是價值上的判斷有沒有違憲個人上面的判斷但你不能拿A案跟我無關的東西來批評我的B案不能這麼幹 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13883.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13910.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
不能拿他等一下我會給你看不一樣的東西不能這樣亂亂批評除非寫這些人就是就是要呼嚨你們這些長官那我那我就無話可說了但是我看到他的報告是在呼嚨你們這些長官因為他就是要寫給你看說我要批評這些立法委員的提案但是他拿的東西必須要像個樣子的來批評嗎他不能拿不一樣的東西來批評所以我覺得我必須在這邊我對於這幾個寫這 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13912.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13912.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
五﹗五﹗五﹗五 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13931.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13952.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我可以先跟您澄清,這份報告我看過,而且我自己親自改過,所以這個我負完全的責任,所以不要怪罪我們的同仁,謝謝。沒關係,就是就這樣啦,就是所以我剛剛有說啦,我說您的主修不是這個嘛,沒關係,那待會我再跟你說大概狀況是出在哪裡。 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13954.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13954.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
五八五號 立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13969.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13997.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 «立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案。netesi,我們之前有提到說這個金門那個撞船的那個案子為什麼我們如果說成立這個調閱小組你認為有違憲的問題嗎?金門這個案子因為牽涉到國安我覺得可能要釐清一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13998.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14002.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
二（委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14022.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14049.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
海巡署所配備的有沒有密錄器、船隻、油料以及人員的費用,這個都是國家的預算嘛。那立法院本來就這個部分就有一個審查的權限。所以就這個部分去加以調查我個人認為是沒有什麼違憲的問題。那這段時間就這個部分好像大家有所爭執。那沒關係我剛剛就表示我的意見,那不然這個副秘書長的想法怎麼樣我覺得我都尊重。 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14050.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14068.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
我再請教你一個東西我們來看就是就585號我們今天所談到的在585號你們拿這個585號來說我們所提的我們這次的修法是有問題的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14082.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14088.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
啊沒有亂講好了我先回過頭去跟大家講一個東西好了啦你剛跳到那個前面那幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14092.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14118.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
我先提一下就我們這次國會改革其實在早期從2016其實一路過來民進黨有很多相關類似的提案其實在多次的訪問還有很多我都有提過像顧立雄也有提過李俊毅也有提過那再往下那甚至呢在顧立雄的版本或者是那個顧立雄版本裡面其實我們現在的那個無私 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14120.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14148.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
無效委員他當時也是聯署的提案人之一啦那至於說剛剛他講了很多就是憲法法律命令這個法律未接那當然這個法律未接是沒有問題我覺得他講的都很OK都沒有問題但這東西到底有沒有違憲這絕對不是立法委員或是官員任何人可以說了算我想這個還是要等最後大法官怎麼認定嘛這個絕對不是說像剛剛拿了一個法律的未接圖然後就跟你說法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14149.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14152.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14174.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14174.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14184.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14206.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
國會其實應該有一定的調查權那他有一些國會改革的法案那2016到現在雖然照他所說的沒錯社會有所變動但是憲法不可能亂變動憲法是國家的根本大法絕對不是像剛剛那幾位委員說的這個社會有變動2016到現在所以有變化所以以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14207.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14227.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
認為不違憲現在變違憲。我跟你講沒有人這樣解釋憲法的啦。八年內憲法認定就會違憲這真的會笑死憲法學者。所以這部分我覺得他剛剛講的是蠻莫名其妙的。好那我們再回過頭來我們來看我們這一次就是貴院的報告。貴院的報告他是認為說他是引用585號 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14230.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14254.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
他認為我們在這個職權行使法25條26條所提到的有一個我的版本是有一個是希望處這個一萬元以上三十萬元以下的罰款他認為這個東西他當時他是以五八五號他認為是違反法律的程序但是呢我必須講五八五號他當時在談的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14256.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14256.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14286.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14286.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑ |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14303.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14321.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
這是事實這是事實委員你如果讀到後面的話是這樣是沒有錯的爭調會條例裡面關於什麼叫做不行他有說你要經過正當的法律程序你前提沒有講你就直接下結論你這個在騙人欸不是委員我沒有辦法接受你這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14322.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14335.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
請你下去我沒有辦法接受你這說法我念法律的不用我不問你了我念法律的我沒有辦法接受你這樣子胡說八道行政權不能亂解釋大法官會議解釋我不能這樣子接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14337.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14354.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
她的前提,不講前提就直接說她這樣違憲。莫名其妙嘛。她的理由書跟釋憲文本身就是載明相關的行政法跟刑法的條文是違憲的。時間先暫停。主席要發表意見,時間先暫停。對,剛剛那個委員已經請您先下去,您不用講了。等一下委員,我還沒說完。 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14362.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14384.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
請您不用講了我們是主席已經告訴您請您下台然後不用請您下台我已經告訴您了你喜歡這些要怎麼樣這個糾察權嗎行政官員來立法院麻煩尊重立法院的主席好嗎我跟你講我質詢是不發脾氣的但是副秘書長你真的讓我生氣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14389.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14392.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
大法官會直接認定這個是違憲不是這樣子而是大法官是認為說你必須在符合法定 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14414.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14439.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
而正當的法律程序跟法律明確性的要求之下你才能這麼做並不是說這麼做違憲所以我不接受這個說法那如果是你剛剛說錯你必須說你剛剛說錯講太快我跟你講我這是第一次在質詢裡面發脾氣好那我剛剛我必須講的就是你們不應該拿兩個不一樣的東西放到我對於詢答質詢上面我認為質詢上面應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14443.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14466.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我認為資訊上面應該要有這些法環你不能這樣子隨便拿個大法官會議解釋做這樣的認定而且我的做法並不是說毫無那個法定程序我也是要求說如果我們認定有這樣經過國會這邊的那個決議之後是送給行政法院處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14467.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14467.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14484.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14512.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
還有就是有關你們認為說我提的版本的第17條草案第三項你們認為說我們講的行政院各部會首長跟新任官員均有全體委員三分之一以上聯署或副議由院會決一決就其人事進行聽證那你們說這個是我們會侵害到你們的人事決定權違反憲法分立跟制衡原則我必須跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14514.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14538.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
貴院說,第一個我們說的是聽證我的草案寫得非常清楚是就人事進行聽證這個怎麼會影響到你的提名權我也不是說同意權所以我從頭到尾我說的是聽證那聽證是讓國會有監督這些院長任命的首長是否符合民意那你硬要凹說這個違反權利分立 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14539.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14553.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
好那我跟你講就像我之前說的我們現在在面對行政院行政院只要對於自己不想要看到的法案說法就違憲就一句話違憲我跟你講大家不是沒有念過書不要用膝蓋來思考事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14554.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14554.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14578.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14606.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
副總召的助理你應該很清楚立法院怎麼在運作嘛你應該非常清楚所以你也知道我說這樣我沒有辦法去接受政府總是用錯誤的訊息來誤導人民這是不應該的以前這樣可以現在這樣不行跟我說這個是因為社會在轉變如果社會在轉變會這麼嚴重的影響憲法幾年內憲法就整個翻轉那憲法就不叫做中華民國的根本大法 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14608.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14622.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
我真的是真心這樣認為啦那我這個人我這個人腦子也是一條線很直的人法律怎麼規定我就怎麼做甚至我最近的一些發言跟黨內也不一樣我還是堅守我的立場我一直都是這樣甚至人家說你為什麼要維護 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14624.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14642.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
我互民進黨我互賴清德我說不是因為我對於憲法以及法律的認定是這樣我就要堅守我很笨我就是這樣子的人那我剛剛沒有辦法接受行政院的這兩個見解那行政院你們的對於法律對於大法官會議的說法我也沒有辦法接受不好意思謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14644.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14662.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
是本席還要再強調一次在委員會的質詢台上面請尊重質詢委員以及主席的規則不要請官員下台的時候還一直在質詢台上面在備詢台上面遲遲不肯下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14673.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14675.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
沈博洋委員賴瑞榮委員紅夢臺委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14702.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14730.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
主席謝謝我先請我們那個立法院秘書長好不好周秘書長不過在周秘書長質詢您之前我想我很難得看我們召委那麼的動氣召委是對好人越好對壞人越壞很抱歉如果說過去就我們的理解跟認知還有了解我們的召委過去就是捍衛我們全體國人的權益的檢察官而且是正義的使者 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14731.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14757.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
那能夠保障我們無辜一般的民眾老百姓我想昭偉絕對站在第一線他永不退縮但如果說要來立法院跟我們耍流氓耍皮條耍無賴的話很抱歉國民黨團一起也都會捍衛我們公平正義的原則對我們所有的這些傲慢的官員用最嚴厲的角度對好人越好對壞人越壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14759.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14787.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
以德報怨何以報德啊?錯了。以職報怨以德報德啊。所以說這是我們共同一個主張。我想今天也利用這個資訊的機會再一次,雖然是我們秘書長在這邊我要跟你請教啊,但是我還是用這個機會來跟我們所有的列席官員來好好的說明清楚。如果說2024年新國會新氣象、新民意還要用這種過去一黨獨大的思維的話,很抱歉。大家看著辦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14789.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14814.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
來 委員長請教一下我先跟您請教一下因為您在這邊比較老資格我一句話想要請您評斷看看就是說這個到底是講哪一個部分講誰啊你用你的智慧來猜猜看長期佔有國會多數啊到了選舉啊會期的最後幾天才要國會改革啊已經完全的失信於民也不讓人有所期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14815.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14824.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
只有完成國會輪替讓改革過半才能真正開啟國會改革的新契機。以您的智慧您可以判斷出來這是誰講的話嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14826.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14849.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
哪一個政黨講的話可以嗎?因為我不太...選舉過程當中一定都有對國會改革都是一個議題啦包括以前跟現在都有尤其這一次選舉也有那上次蔡總統在選舉的時候也對國會改革都作為在選舉過程的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14850.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14875.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
委員長講得非常好這是2015年蔡英文當時總統候選人在她臉書上寫的一段話但她的主角叫做國民黨所以換位置換腦袋以前她在批評講說國民黨長期佔有國會多數但是現在8年過去了到底民進黨一黨獨大在立法院那麼多的一個席次國會改革改了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14876.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14900.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
那我們現在一樣原封不動把2015年蔡英文總統候選人的話還給民進黨團還給現在長期執政的民進黨占國會多數到了選舉或說到了真的要被檢討的時候才講是說要拿出國會改革其實已經完全失信於民不要讓人家有所期待那再來本席在這兩天也有提出來我們去查了一下法國英國美國日本南韓 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14906.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14924.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
等相關國家其實都有訂定不管是藐視國會罪不管是這個聽證權的一個相關法案甚至如果說我們的這個行政機關在國會做偽證的話可以處不管是罰還或是刑責的部分我想請教立法院有沒有做相關的一個資料研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14926.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14944.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
欸我想大概各位欸所中大概都有啦因為大概我2月5號欸就任6號就請法治局來大概針對於調查聽證這一這個部分啦欸在他們3月5號大概都有上網也給各委員都有一本這一個欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14948.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14963.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
國會調查權行使權限相關法制延期,我想大概都有,包括剛才有蠻多委員對於各個國家的這個比較都有,裡面都有做一個分析,詳細的分析。 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14964.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14994.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
所以世界各民主國家我們剛剛提到這幾個民主國家相對來說其實也都是我們中華民國也希望見賢思齊見不賢而自省之嘛對不對所以也是認為過去這幾個國家民主國家裡面都有這相關的一個制定那也許我們過去之前這個行政部門沒有想到可以囂張蠻橫霸道霸權到這個程度所以在過去八年看到行政權長期凌駕立法權啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14994.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15023.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
甚至好像讓我們的這個民意代表變成很多民意代表變黨議代表。所以現在是還權於民的時候。民主黨本期最後再請教我今天我們這個禮拜三可能就會針對這個我們這一次的這個立法委員職權行使法以及刑法這邊來做一個主條的公聽會跟主條審查嗎?以立法院的角度是不是都是尊重我們委員的一個見解? |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15024.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15045.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
當然這個本來就是立法過程當然就是由委員決定了但以院方的角度當然是行政上會配合是 立法院是行政配合嗎那如果說有這個行政部門行政權還是刻意阻撓刻意抗拒不提出版本或說認為是說不需要修正那這怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15048.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15072.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
呃（執權行使法大概行政院不會提版本啦。一定是我們院裡面自己的委員的提案。那刑法勒?刑法上這個長期來有些的情況是說一定要行政機關來的版本在並同審查也有。其實也不一定會有行政院的版本才能夠啟動這一個審議過程。是謝謝梁國雄那最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15076.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15091.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
本席也在提還權於民三部曲第一部立法委員職權行使法第二部刑法修正以及我們第三部第十屆已經講得沸沸揚揚吹哨者保護法我們認為說是勢在必行 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15091.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15114.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
第十屆的時候民進黨國民黨民眾黨時代力量四個黨團都有提出吹哨者保護法版本但是遲遲沒有看到政院版所以第十屆到最後沒有辦法在會期結束之前能夠實質能夠討論吹哨者保護法第十一屆新國會新會期我想也是回應民意所以我們也會拜託我們的召委在 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15115.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15130.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
最快的速度來排吹哨者保護法的一個審查完全於民三部曲這三個部分其實都是把過去立法權不章的地方長期被行政權給這個掩蓋我們把它給找回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15131.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15146.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
讓國人能夠在法制上能夠有更大的保障所以如果說我們在提出這個吹哨者保護法在討論的時候也在請立法院要提出相關的建議的時候也請民主黨秉持專業公正也給予我們相關建議這樣可以嗎我們法制單位會來會來會來好謝謝民主黨好謝謝那接下來我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15156.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15172.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15174.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15194.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員劉建國委員劉建國委員劉建國委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15203.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15203.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
麻煩秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15212.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15237.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
李總,剛剛聽到說應該是立法委員的職權行使法大概行政院也不會提版本嗎?應該是以本院的院會決議來做處理所以我們提出了民眾黨提出了國會改革的版本當然國民黨也有提出那好像民進黨也有提出那對國會改革其實看起來是朝野有共識的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15238.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15256.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
但是有公司的法案之前就已經發生一直有一個聲音說我們的版本毀憲亂政毀憲亂政是任何人都可以隨便亂喊的那看起來只要跟他的意見不同就變成毀憲亂政請問秘書長你看過民眾黨的版本嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15261.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15273.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
民眾黨的版本其實非常的清楚我要再強調一次立法委員的調查權的權限範圍從今天的報告可以看出來其實從民國82年就已經有釋字325號 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15275.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15304.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
三百二十五號已經確定了立法院有調查權、調閱權、調查權。那目前為止看起來甚至三二五號立法院為行使憲法所賦予的職權必要的時候可以調閱文件的原本。而且受要求機關除非法令或其他規定或其他正當理由是不得拒絕。所以調閱權是已經確立了。那目前為止也在執行中對吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15305.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15305.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
三（五（ |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15325.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15325.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15338.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15356.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
所以4至325號民眾黨的修正版本我們內容的第47條有規定除非法律或其他政當理由得拒絕外這完全是在4至325號的解釋範圍之內也就是說民眾黨的版本並沒有違反4至325號這第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15359.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15384.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
第二點,接下來是民國93年的釋字585號。585號的範圍裡面也確立了調查權的界限還有實質的內容。第一個,他有必要的時候必須經過院會決議,要求調查事項相關的人民或政府人員陳述意見。第二點,得對違反協助調查義務的人科與法環。第三點,程序上必須以法律為適當規範。 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15386.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15402.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
第四點,如果委任非立法院人事協助調查必須要特別法。第五點,個案調查事實的範圍不能違反權力分立跟制衡原則,不能侵害其他機關的權力核心範圍,也不可以對其他機關權力行使造成實質妨害。 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15403.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15426.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
此五大原則是585號的範圍。同樣的,台灣民眾黨的版本也在這個範圍裡面講得非常的清楚,所有的程序都必要時經過院會決議。同樣在民眾黨版的45條規定,都非常清楚的要求符合585的範圍,更沒有超過罰還以外的制裁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15427.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15448.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
議員楊瓊瓊 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15448.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15465.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
就這個版本沒有所謂毀憲亂政的問題而不需要被誤導視聽大家的版本都不一樣但是台灣民眾黨版本非常嚴謹的在兩個大法官會議解釋的範圍之內做出了我們的相關的條文的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15466.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15473.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
所以就這個部分我要講得很清楚很明白的就是現在還有一個市制的633號633號的徵調會違憲是因為他直接賦予徵調會採取的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15479.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15480.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15510.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15536.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
民眾黨我們不是活在民國三十四年中華民國憲法剛通過的時候也不是活在中華民國還有三個國會的時候民眾黨的版本是為了現在2024年國會要有更好的運作而且也在大法官會議授權的範圍之內提出改革的版本毀憲亂政這樣的字眼我希望民進黨團把它收回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15537.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15558.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
議員楊瓊瓊 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15558.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15574.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
議員楊瓊瓊 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15575.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15576.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15604.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15632.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
好謝謝好那接下來我們請賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員遊浩委員遊浩委員遊浩委員楊瓊瓔委員楊瓊瓔委員楊瓊瓔委員好那應該其他委員都沒有沒有到好那好 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15633.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15661.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
今天齁登記欸剛剛比較不好意思齁剛剛比較暴怒齁那呃就像剛剛黃珊珊委員說的齁動不動就是毀線亂證或是扣你違憲違不違憲是大法官的職權行政官員或立法委員都不能隨便說你違憲這是沒有道理至少我念法律的我沒有辦法接受這種說法好那所有委員都發言完畢那今天詢答結束齁那 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15670.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15687.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
委員質詢時有要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆,請相關機關請速送交個別委員及本會。所提的書面質詢都列入紀錄刊登公報,並請相關機關以書面答覆。 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15695.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15713.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
對,這是剛剛那個委員楊瓊瓔所提的部分。好,那我們今天討論的事項所列個案都已經報告跟詢答完畢。那我們本次的會議呢就進行到這邊,現在散會,謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15724.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15738.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案。二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案。二） |