| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01ebf86bd8208360bdd1736f14338963e45dd5fe0ad2124294948cb68dbf16ab198a39e653668eca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
涂權吉 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:15:40 - 11:36:55 |
| 影片長度 |
1275 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「勞動部勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署事件及如何完善申訴管道之具體策進作為及期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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好 謝謝主席喔那謝謝請問我們部長喔謝謝土偉好 部長你好喔那個11月25號正式接下部長這一職嘛那好像11月26號你第一個行程就是去拜訪我們的北分署對不對是那去北分署以後那當然也甚至好像在媒體也有看到也去開箱視察了我們 |
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前分署長謝宜榮的辦公室那進去看以後是不是也確定他這個小小辦公室也花了144.6萬元是不是確實有這件事情跟杜委員說明其實我有查現在當然在媒體上面講到新莊本部的那個所謂144.6萬這一個綠美化的標案它的範疇其實並不包括 |
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謝勇分署長的辦公室他主要是針對外面的一些公共空間但是我要強調說我確實去看了謝勇的謝勇前分署長辦公室我進去看以後確實我覺得有很多部分是很過當的那尤其現在大家關注到比方說裝的這個軌道燈這很多盞的軌道燈那這軌道燈當然他看起來在辦公室裡面他就是專門去照他那些 |
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那我也查過了的確這些軌道燈他是用小額採購的方式是用救安基金支付所以不管他金額大或小這部分都是非常非常不妥當當然啦我懂部長講的意思啦那確實他這個辦公室是確實花了一百多萬那當然有些是什麼需要用到的什麼會議室啊什麼等等並不是所有這一百多萬全部用他的辦公室 |
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137.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我們可以來討論責任的問題,但是在事實面上面,目前這一百多萬主要是針對外面的公共空間。謝永芬署長他自己在內部的狀況,包括我們已經查過他的這些職務的購買,目前是他自己用他的錢購買的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
139.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
165.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那桌椅的部分是用：可不是剛剛不是有講說有些部分他是有用救安那個救安基金3萬9千多塊：軌道燈是所以裡面部分確實是有用到救安基金的錢嗎比如說就像軌道燈那些造植物的軌道燈他是用救安基金用小額採購的方式這是非常不適合我當然不能接受的部分所以裡面確實有部分使用是不當的是當然好那當然喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
166.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
186.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
上任之後去除了看過我們前前分署長辦公室那現在部長針對自己這個辦公室我們當時我們林淑芬委員有講我們部長辦公室當初許明春我們前部長說他裡面有廚房有流理台然後可以開火那是不是真的有這樣子的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
187.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
206.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我其實也是上禮拜一第一次看到大家所謂說的那個空間然後我其實看了以後大概他其實是我覺得他比較像是一個茶水間那那個茶水間的使用並不是我可以使用其實是部長室裡面大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
207.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
226.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
就是我幾乎所有部長室裡面的工作人呃的工作人都可以使用的空間並不是專屬他不因為我確實我自己有一間我自己有一間可是這個所謂的茶水間並不是在我自己的那個空間但是就是整體部長的辦公室裡面當然你的意思說其他同仁也可以使用當然所以確定就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
227.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
245.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
因素分委員講的沒有錯確實這整個部長辦公室裡面確實是有個小廚房有流離台可以可以煮水啊什麼之類的嗎其實他他他比較真的像是一個茶水他也沒有瓦斯爐就是其實沒有你想像的那個所謂廚房裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
246.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
260.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
就廚房大概都會有瓦斯爐嘛對不對所以原則上聯儲分委員講的是沒有錯啦就是有一個確實有理台之類的然後茶水間之類的那你說有一個可以洗碗的地方茶水間嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
261.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
287.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那可不可以煮東西可不可以開火就是他沒有瓦斯爐但是他有一個我去看的時候像電磁爐什麼之類的有一個微波爐微波爐對但是並不是大家所謂的廚房啦因為廚房真的都要你說都要有像瓦斯爐抽油煙機這種東西是大家可能想像的廚房所以所以部長你講但是重點就是有像茶水間之類的這個是這是有的設備嘛這是有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
287.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
300.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那可是因為那時候我們針對這個事情我們也想了解說欸林淑芬委員講的到底是不是真的那我們也有向勞動部所知針對松江路至青大樓12樓針對我們看這個圖資可是裡面圖資上面並沒有這些構造還是說給那個圖資是不正確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
313.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
336.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
因為我們有索取到圖資圖資裡面並沒有說你講的什麼茶水間什麼之類這個圖資還是那個資料是錯的還是我們許部長是後面自己又再發包才去做的東西報告委員我們給委員的資料裡面確實是有茶水間我們有把這個圖都有畫出來提供給委員這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
337.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
360.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以你講的茶水間就在這上面並不是所以並不是林淑芬委員講的什麼廚房開火之類這樣子的東西對 圖紙上面的茶水間就是剛剛部長講的就是很簡單的那個所以今天講的重點就是說你們說林淑芬委員講的其實大家有點超過想像是不是第一個是我們其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
363.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
379.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
林委員當然講的到底是前後到底是什麼什麼時候其實我我我坦白說不是那麼簡單我只能就說就就實際的狀況面來讓大家知道我也是禮拜一的時候去然後看到其實看到就是一個大概是一個茶水間那裡面有微波爐有 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
381.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
406.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
有水槽那裡面有但你如果需要裝水的話你可以有飲水機部長我覺得針對這部分當然林淑芬委員講的那針對說你的你的釐清部分是說是茶水間但是其實我們從媒體上我們聽到的他是說有廚房有流體台而且可以開火甚至甚至可以在裡面暢飲 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
408.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
434.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我相信這個媒體上面有這樣講那我是說針對這一部分為什麼這個事情發生了10天了也沒有聽我們勞動部針對這一部分做出一些事實的澄清你們像一些勞動部有一些年金的什麼短語音你們說那是假訊息你說馬上大張旗鼓又做突變又澄清為什麼這個事情你們到現在都沒有講清楚而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
434.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
453.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們所了解的 林子芬委員講的他是說有琉璃台有廚房可以開火甚至可以暢演也許大家對於那個空間的這個看法會不一樣但是我說就是這個所謂的空間有什麼東西我覺得我們沒有什麼好遮掩的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
453.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
476.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
但是我就說就像他裡面真的沒有什麼抽油煙機啊沒有瓦斯爐啊都沒有這些事情那我覺得因為如果照這樣我覺得勞動部你也要適時的澄清因為我們現在很好奇啊當初林副總委員講的這樣那我想說欸我們洪部長進去以後不知道你進去以後使用的感覺怎麼樣我就裝水進去而已所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
478.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
503.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
一直以來我們都沒有聽到勞動部針對這部分來事實的來說明我們認為就是廚房阿可以開火阿可以吃飯阿甚至可以唱演阿上面的感覺就是這樣阿那你們從頭到尾沒有針對這部分做出任何的澄清阿我使用到的部分只有進去裝水所以我本來一直想說問部長齁到底使用以後的感覺怎麼樣阿就是水很乾淨 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
504.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
533.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以我覺得有受事實的澄清我相信當時大家看到林子芬委員講的這個新聞之後我相信大家的想法跟部長的說法應該是有所出入我覺得如果有事實的澄清的必要還是要說明那我想請我們勞動條件跟就業平等司還有勞動關係司的司長我想針對我們辦理音樂會的部分來瞭解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
540.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
555.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們過去幾年,勞動部夜館的幾個法律,大部分我們所知道其實都是用研討會的方式,都是邀請專家學者、工會代表甚至婦女團體來討論這些落實法律上的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
559.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
584.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
報告以往大概都是用學術研討會的形式來去做這個幾週年的這個形式對啊所以因為我們看歷史資料幾乎都是這樣那為什麼針對性平工作平等法20週年他是違反慣例不是辦研討會而是挪用救安基金來舉辦這個音樂會這部分黃市長你有沒有什麼說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
585.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
599.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
報告委員那我們在當年的20週年的時候其實在上半年已經辦了兩場的這個學術研討會那一年其實是疫情那學術研討會在辦理的時候他是做一些學理上面的探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
600.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
618.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那交流的部分的話都是大概學者專家還有一些同學和各界那他的人數其實是有限的那我們有發現一件事情是說這幾年其實要求我們對性別平等工作法多做宣達而那當年的話在111年其實我們性別平等工作法有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
619.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
633.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以你講的意思說其實之前都是辦研討會然後你們也都辦過研討會但是針對這20週年確實也辦了一場演唱會嘛這一場的話是我們希望說透過一些多元的宣導所以他希望說拍出一個片子 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
633.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
663.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
拍出妻子的片子以及有一場的一個直播但是他拍攝的內容形式是用音樂會的方式這樣可以讓更多的勞工朋友和很多的婦女團體他們可以用這樣的方式來參與因為今天早上我也聽了很多委員的質詢答詢那針對我們這個音樂會的部分你看像王一民委員那時候有問針對這引帶的部分說要做妻子啊做妻子引帶啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
663.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
688.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
然後說這個費用花了兩百多萬那針對這部分其實現在大家所質疑就是說這個音樂會裡面用救安基金的錢很多的地方其實大家都認為這個項目這樣子使用這個預算是不對的那我們現在重點想了解黃市長這個活動是你自己想要辦還是誰提出要辦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
690.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
707.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這個活動其實我們有做過評估那其實在在過往的時候大概都有很多委員外界有一些指教是說我們的性別平等工作法可以用更多的多元的方式老師長我問說這是你自己想到要去辦的還是之前我們前部長覺得要辦這個活動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
708.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
738.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
在我們這個相關的這個辦理的過程中其實我提到上半年我們辦了兩場的學術研討會所以是師長你自己覺得要辦的是嗎辦了這個學術研討會之後後續的話我們再參加的這兩場學術研討會許前部長不是啊我師長我說這是你自己想到要辦的還是我們前部長許部長覺得要辦交辦下去的後面的我們得到訊息是說有很多的我們包括像中南部的朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
739.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
763.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
對於或基層的勞工朋友他們對於這樣的性別平等工作法我們當年有很多的新的一件所以是誰決定要辦這個演唱會是沒有辦法說讓這些人都有機會接觸到的那有這樣的一個沒有我一直問說這個演唱會到底是誰要辦的有一個像訊息進來我們就來研究說到底可不可以用什麼方式來做所以是市長你們自己討論要辦的還是之前部長找你們開會討論決定要辦的我們有一些共同的開會的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
765.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
782.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
是部長召集還是你召集的?那是 那我們許前部長召集的嗎?那是你自己召集的?不是啦 就是誰召集就這麼簡單的問題所以是司長你自己召集決定要辦的嗎?我們有判斷過和研判過這個是可以來做的所以是司長召集的嗎?這邊是指誰啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
796.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
823.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所以我的意思說就是黃師長你自己招臺然後召集這個會議研議覺得要辦這個演唱會我們大概有一些構想和發想那運用的現在的那個相關的這些有的管道是那一年的統標案所以之前我們許前部長也知道他也同意要辦這個活動嗎我們有正式的簽我們的這個部分他也同意嗎我們有正式的簽這是完全正式的簽所以許前部長也同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
823.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
841.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
對嘛 一定有簽嘛 一定有簽呈嘛所以許前部長也同意司長的這個做法嘛所以我們就說針對這個演唱會 其實齁黃國昌委員之前也有講你像今天早上很多的委員都針對這一部分我們現在 我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
843.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
870.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我們現在執政黨官員這濫用預算的部分這必定已經是系統性的腐敗這是黃國昌委員之前在質詢的時候就有提出那可是我們勞動部輕描淡寫的回應說公務機關預算之用核銷相當嚴謹如有任何事證可提供檢調或廉政單位依法處理也就是說勞動部整個態度就是認為說如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
871.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
894.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
有任何不法你就去送,那所以他的意思就是說,針對這個事情查無不法,謝謝指教嘛。呃,土偉永,這樣跟土偉永報告齁,其實第一個,我們針對這一場音樂會的部分喔,第一個確實是在新公法方面喔,就是新公法確實是臺灣性別平等,跟我們的勞動法治化裡面非常標誌性的事件。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
895.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
912.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那但是確實在這一個呈現上面呃呈現的形式上面可能大家就對主觀上面會不同的看法也許部分的呈現的橋段其實讓大家觀感不佳這部分我們也在檢討對啊所以所以部長11月24號你們這樣子回覆可是你想想看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
914.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
941.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
短短的4天之後我們的臺北地檢署就以分他治案來辦理我覺得這真的就是重重打臉我們勞動部前面講的輕描淡寫相當嚴謹如果你查有不法歡迎檢查就是好像說你們內部調查是絕對沒有問題結果地檢署馬上來偵辦你講的沒有錯目前其實檢調正在針對這部分開始月卷跟偵查所以我們也會全力的配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
942.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
958.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以我希望我們勞動部以後針對這些發言你看你講的非常嚴謹結果馬上地檢署就來偵辦然後而且在12月3號勞動部自己馬上又承認這個救安基金使用確實有不妥之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
959.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
974.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以我不知道說我們勞動部在11月24號這樣子禁制隨便發言那當然那時候部長還沒有來我想那時候其實整直的是說他確實有走過他確實有走經過必要的程序他必要的程序上是有走過 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
974.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
987.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
但是就項目內容上面合不合宜這部分當然可以檢討我希望部長現在在勞動部針對有時候這些發言真的要謹慎你才短短的發言幾天以後就重重打臉我覺得這對勞動部的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
990.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
995.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
對我們基本上都是用面對問題的態度來看待這些其實大家的指教我希望部長現在到勞動部針對這部分有針對要好好的來好好的去改善一下而且我們現在針對霸凌難的部分其實之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1016.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1044.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
何部長的時候我們就有質詢過因為我們據我們了解啊謝一榮前分署長他擔任小主管的時候並沒有這個霸凌的歷史但是他所受的相關的業務經驗沒有職業訓練沒有就業服務的經驗他就去做這個分署長連很多的媒體各方面大家都說他接這個分署長是做直升機啊那不知道部長你對這個是不是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1045.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1067.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
他能夠這樣子破格去升任分署長到底是誰幫他的謝前分署長的升任這事情是事實那我想他在當分署長前他做過哪些職位這也都完全都能夠查得到所以這些相關的升任的這些決策我覺得當然都都要必須接受社會的公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1068.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1086.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
因為據我們了解啦其實我們認為今天會發生這霸凌案我們是感覺一個主要原因我們的謝前分署長因為他這對這個業務並不是很熟絡所以他在領導我們這些分署裡面的這些同仁他沒有辦法去領導就瞎指揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1087.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1087.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
王安邦前次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1109.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1133.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那可是為什麼這個事情也沒有記錄也沒有去做改善才會導致後面這無緣因為霸凌而親身的事情發生如果當初好好處理就不會發生這件事啊這當然是讓人很遺憾的事情那當然我現在上任以後我的工作就是怎麼讓其實這些相關的案件都可以好好的被處理這是我現在的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1134.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1162.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
因為現在我們希望部長上來真的好好調查因為我們那時候臨時提案有講說要重啟調查當然說本來這次就要提出報告那後來部長也說要到下個禮拜嘛對不對我希望這些報告針對王安邦次長這些事情我覺得應該也要有一個交代因為我們據我們了解二月份而且很多委員都講明明知道之前就約談過而且這個事情真的很奇妙約談的長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1165.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1182.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
結果被調職結果被約談的還一直穩坐泰山所以人家一直講這個背後到底有什麼靠山我們勞動部到底還有多少局內人我覺得部長喔要真的好好調查清楚因為你這份報告很重要大家都在關注這份報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1184.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1195.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
呃,像杜委員說明,因為其實現在針對比較是在標案或者是採購上面,就經費使用上面的部分,現在檢調在查。那檢調是有請我們針對,假設是針對標案跟採購的部分,請我們先暫緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1200.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1216.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我知道但是我希望針對這個霸凌案這中間還有很多的問題當然希望我們都在等這份報告針對霸凌案的部分我們當然現在就是重啟行政調查好因為這個大家對這個都是有很大的意義哦我一直要講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1217.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1244.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這個事情早之前可以處理到就像之前去年部長的時候就得到聽到很多的鬼故事而且王航班前次長也去約談過可是居然沒效果結果約談過以後他自己9月突然在晚上11點多被發布離職命令我們大家在笑去約談的主管結果自己被調職被約談的反而穩坐泰山所以這部分我希望給你給我們一個清楚的交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1246.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1269.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我們當然希望能夠完整的把這個事件的前因後果然後尤其是這個災本分署名的事件能夠透過這個重啟調查能夠呈現的清楚部長大家對你來接這個勞動部長雖然大家說爭議很高可是我們也對你期望很深希望能夠把很多沒有辦法調查的事情希望能夠水落石出謝謝主席 |
| IVOD_ID |
157793 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157793 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-12 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-04T11:15:40+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-04T11:36:55+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |