| IVOD_ID |
15776 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15776 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-01T08:30:45+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-01T13:02:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:31:15 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbc4feebff739bc37a5e5a7d9476abbdb33be8d109af184be47d8cba3521a7b20a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案」案。(詢答及處理)） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:45 - 13:02:00 |
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160.751 |
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160.992 |
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麥克風測試麥克風測試 |
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1007.329 |
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1007.824 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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1634.377 |
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1634.889 |
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MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |
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1767.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1769.198 |
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報告聯席會初期委員22人及主法定人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1793.544 |
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1807.032 |
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好 我們現在開會進行討論事項 請宣讀審查本院委員傅崐萁等53人擬具《環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案》案 今日尋答及處理 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1820.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1828.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好 謝謝那我們現在請國發會主委公主委請對委員的提案請提出說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1840.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1857.327 |
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主席、各位委員、各位女士先生,大家好。承蒙各位委員會的邀請,就傅委員、昆吉等53人擬具的環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案的提案,僅提出本會的建議、意見供委員會參考,請各位委員不吝指教。 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1861.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1883.627 |
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首先,我們要表達的是,花東地區的地形狹長,受到中央山脈跟海岸山脈的阻隔,以致交通發展常常遇到一些瓶頸。為了使得東部地區的交通發展更為迅速,以建構可靠安全的交通運輸環境,達到均衡台灣東西部發展的目的,是行政部門共同努力的方向。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1884.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1901.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
近年來,事實上交通部已經完成了花東地區數項重大的交通建設的專業評估跟規劃以後本會也協助於審議完成並獲得行政院的核定例如有花東地區的鐵路雙軌電氣化計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1903.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1926.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
或是臺九縣的花東縱谷安全景觀大道的計畫或是臺九縣的蘇阿公路山區路段改善計畫以及臺九縣蘇阿公路安全提升等等的計畫這些都是已經完成其中按照交通部的規劃現在正在實施當中的花東地區的鐵路雙軌電氣化的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1929.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1933.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
基本上就是東部鐵路提升速度的規劃中的短期計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1935.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1962.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
就臺灣過去對於高速鐵路的一些發展的情形臺灣西部的高速鐵路計畫是在行政院在民國76年的時候只是交通部辦理臺灣西部走廊的高速鐵路可行性研究並且獲得行政院核定以後均由鐵路建設的主管機關也就是交通部透過專業的評估規劃相關的路線、車站的位置研擬可行性以及綜合規劃以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1964.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1991.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
循這個程序,呈報到行政院來核定。就西部高速鐵路的經費來源是採用民間促參的方式,也就是俗稱的BOT的方式來辦理。交通部跟臺灣高鐵公司也簽訂了臺灣南北高速鐵路興建營運合約以後,由高鐵公司負責路線的土建也好,或是車站 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1992.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1992.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
提出本會的一些建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2009.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2030.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
第一,現行政府推動交通建設的機制已經非常明確而且完整。事實上,我國各項的重大交通建設的推動,中央各部會均有明確的分工。交通部掌管鐵路、大眾捷運以及公路的建設政策、工程籌劃、監督和管理等四項。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2032.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2055.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
整個盤點國內交通的需求以後也會納入到運輸政策的白皮書來勾勒運輸部門完整的施政難途在統籌辦理各項計畫的可行性研究綜合規劃或是建設計畫以後然後循行政院所屬機關中長城個案計畫的編審要點來呈報行政院呈報行政院以後行政院會交易 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2059.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2069.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
本會會同主席總署、財政部、工程會共同進行審議,並將審議結果回覆行政院,提供行政院作為核定的依據與參考。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2076.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2085.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因此,各項交通建設由規劃、審議、預算的編列到執行的過程當中,還算是十分嚴謹。同時,也要經過比較詳實的路線、運量、財務跟經濟效益等等的可行性確認以後, |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2092.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2121.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
礦潛的推動過程還必須有一些遵守各項其他的法令比如說環境影響評估法水土保持法或土地法或者是國土計劃法都市計劃法等等來做一些辦理所以希望透過這些因為這些建設都影響到很大的民生跟很大的大量的經費上的一些投入所以有這樣的機制上的審核機制以後呢那事實上以確保政府支出呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2121.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2124.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
它具有一些效應而且有助於我國國土的永續發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2126.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2150.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第二點就是說現行的機制已足以推動高速鐵路的興建不需要另立特別條例跟基金來做推動目前不管是快速道路、國道或是高速鐵路都有公路法還有鐵路法予以規範在這些法律之下各項的鐵公路推動還算是蠻順暢的建設的經費來源跟營運的相關機制也相當的完整跟確確 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2155.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2178.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
因此就這個過去來講也有西部的高速鐵路的這個建設的機制也有一些經驗而且現在也在已經完成建設的一些文件的營運當中所以我們覺得就是說東部的這個快速鐵路如果可以形成共識的話也可以循這樣的這個過去的經驗來做一些辦理不需要另立特別條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2179.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2201.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
第三點就是說,交通建設中央主管機關應該有一致性比較好,那建設情形也應該務實的來做一些評估。那現在我們剛才特別提到了西部高速鐵路的這個主管機關是交通部,那後續的這個東延到宜蘭或是南延到屏東事實上也是交通部來做一些主政。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2203.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2218.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那所以就是說現在如果現在的特別條例草案裡面要列為本會為主管機關的話恐怕會跟這個鐵路法的主管機關事實上有一些漢格的一些情況同時呢由本會來擔任這個環島高鐵的主管機關也 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2221.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2249.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
不是屬於本會主持法裏面賦予的選擇那另外就是說年限的部分現在草案裡面呢事實上是希望不要超過10年10年的違憲但是我們考量到過去的這個西部高鐵的一些相關經驗而且中間還要可能涉及路線跟可行性環境影響評估綜合規劃工程設計用地取得招標等等的一些情況的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2250.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2251.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
高速鐵路建設特別條例草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2271 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2283.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
參與公共建設、甚至BOT方法進行。行政院所核定的相關重大建設,都可以依照政府公共建設計畫的先期作業實施要點,來編列預算。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2288.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2302.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
的情況來支應,所以有一定的程序來做一些辦理。當然,如果經過一些財務上詳細的評估,如果可以運用民間參與公共建設的方法來推動,也是可行的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2304.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2331.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以最後結論我們是認為說對於花東地區的各項的發展跟建設上的需求本會一向秉持著非常積極的態度按照各項的法律規定協助各部會如期如質來做一些推動那原現在的既有的各項的推動機制當中算是還是沒有什麼至愛難行的地方都可以循這樣的一些制度來辦理那經過本會檢視本條例的草案相關的內容對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2333.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2359.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
可能跟鐵路法或財政紀律法或本會的指出法事實上是有一些漢格而且高速鐵路的建設計畫國內已經有一些潛力可循也就是西部高鐵可以來做參照辦理所以我們的建議還是說不太需要另立新法來做一些推動如果環島高鐵形成共識的話現在的機制我們就可以開始啟動我想這是我們的意見以上報告敬請指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2364.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2380.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
好 謝謝 那麼我們今天議程排定委員傅崐萁等53人擬具環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案現在我們就請提案傅崐萁委員請說明提案要旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2394.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2417.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
主席、各位委員、我們國發會、我們主委、交通部次長在座的各位媒體女士先生今天很榮幸能夠在交通委員會、經濟委員會聯席的此刻來這裡做一個提案報告這是一個歷史的時刻畢竟 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2418.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2434.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
在臺灣的基礎建設未曾完備的今天而臺灣又是一個已開發國家更是全世界人口密度千萬人口以上第二密集的國家僅次於孟加拉 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2435.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2435.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2467.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2479.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個民國88年台灣高鐵正式動工以後從台北到高雄左營短短七八年的時間就能夠來完工而整個從 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2481.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2504.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
台北延伸到宜蘭高雄延伸到屏東在整個行政體系的推動之下卻是非常的牛步如果我們今天用一個法律案的條例來賦予我們的國家政府有一個憑據跟基礎未來整體的交通建設可以用更快的速度來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2506.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2532.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我們相信臺灣是一個已開發國家並不是一個落後的國家很多的基礎建設要盡快來完成我想各個政黨領袖在過去不斷地表達願意把這些路段一一地來完成所以今天我們希望大家能夠理性地來看待畢竟身為國會的議員我們不只要承擔所有人民的託付更要讓我們的國家能夠快步地 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2533.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2560.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
向前邁進能夠趕向世界時代的潮流我想今天我們在這裡開會所有每一個人的發言都會成為歷史的記錄因為畢竟今天是推動台灣成為一個共同生活圈不只給2300萬人用更是給全世界到台灣每一年一兩千萬的觀光客可以來使用很多人說有一個無謬的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2560.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2589.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
是不是對花蓮人比較有利跟各位報告花蓮人只有32萬人但是每一年到訪花蓮的有1200萬人次這是給全國國人都能夠在最短的時間能夠來到花蓮從台北坐高鐵到花蓮47分鐘可以立即到太平洋濱到中央山脈可以釋放大家所有的壓力更是讓台灣成為一個共同大家緊密結合在一起的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2589.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2591.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
中文字幕由 Amara.org 社群提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2607.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2609.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
環島高鐵我覺得不是夢,未來的工程技術會越來越強。當部長講環島高鐵有人笑他, |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2625.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2634.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以我這次只提兩個案第一個案環島高鐵已經2024年了2024年我們到現在全台灣一日生活圈還沒有完成第二個打通中央山脈28公里從南投上接花蓮下接台東 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2655.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2679.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
當這個案子一推動人民一種很久的鬱悶會釋放出來他看到台灣的希望看到這個政府有魄力讓台灣東部跟台灣西部整個連成一線人流、物流、台中、南投、苗栗、彰化、雲林全部都投怎麼可能只獨立一個花蓮呢那看得太窄了 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2683.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2697.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
在這裡謝謝主席、謝謝各位委員。雅虎的民調,雖然在草野非常緊張的情況之下,很多民生建設可能都冠上了草野的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2698.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2720.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
但是要特別跟各位報告剛剛出來雅虎所做的民調環島高鐵60%的國人支持反對的不到28%要跟各位報告我們再次呼應蘇貞昌前院長以及王國才交通部長所說的環島高鐵不是夢我們希望在今天的條例能夠順利通過謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2723.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2730.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好 謝謝提案委員的說明那麼內政部的報告我們請委員自行參閱並刊登公報我們現在要進行詢答委員詢答前依照慣例主席來做以下幾點宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2742.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2765.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
每位委員發言時間聯席會委員因為我們今天有經濟委員會跟交通委員會兩個委員會來做聯席所以聯席會委員6分鐘非聯席會委員4分鐘上午10點半截止發言登記那麼我們現在請登記第一位的邱益銀召委來做發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2773.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2774.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
交通部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2787.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2809.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
市長請教一下,剛剛這個王國才部長曾經在院會的總之選裡頭答詢說這個環島高鐵不是夢嘛,那看起來交通部應該也是支持這個往環島來做鐵路環島的高鐵鐵路這樣的一個夢想在持續往前進對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2811.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2830.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
這個環島高鐵是過去交通部的一個施政願景,這個部分我們是支持你們一直有在做可行性評估,一直有在做相關的研究規劃嗎?我們為了促成這件事情,從現有的北部的,從台北我們現在正在做宜蘭的案子的綜合規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2831.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2855.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那另外從左營部分要延伸到屏東我們也在做綜合規劃同時這兩個做綜合規劃的時候在兩個端點我們都保持未來延伸的部分所以我們的立場是逐步逐步這樣走逐步在推動齁台灣的所有的重大的交通建設應該都是由交通部來做規劃、評估是,現行的狀況來我請看一下這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2857.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2868.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這是我們國家公共建設的主要的這個流程啦齁我剛剛問到了在初期的階段可行性評估接下來綜合規劃基本設計、細部設計、施工 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2873.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2891.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
發包一直到完工驗收所有的這一些包括前期的可行性評估跟重規這個都是在交通部的職權嘛對不對重大的交通建設應該是這樣可是這個特別條例比較特殊的是這個特別條例的主管機關變成了國發會 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2893.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2911.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所以今天在經濟委員會來主審環島高鐵特別條例我一直覺得很納悶這不是交通部的事情嗎怎麼會是在經濟委員會來主審重大的交通建設原來是提案人副委員在提案的時候就講主管機關是國發會 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2915.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2933.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
請問國發會對於交通建設的可行性評估跟交通建設的規劃對交通建設的瞭解會比交通不深嗎?看起來應該是不會嘛,對不對?是所以這個條例的提出有一點奇怪接下來我要再更進一步請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2934.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2962.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
這個條例的第5條講說這個國發會阿應該要有以下的這些綜合建設方案然後呢完成了期限不逾10年為限換一句白話就是說你們的這一些可行性評估一直到施工發包到完工驗收10年之內要完成那底下呢還會包括很多的要件我先講10年這件事阿次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2964.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2979.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
本席擔任立法委員已經超過20年我在旗美地區擔任立法委員現在是第4屆往第16年邁進了我爭取國道10號延伸到6規 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2981.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2997.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這件事情搞了10年好不容易在去年年底施工發包我來到施工發包這個階段還沒有到完工驗收這個階段我們就已經花了10年的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2998.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3023.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
國道10號延伸到六龜整個建設交通部預期最快要4年才能夠完成所以我的國道10號延伸到整個完成最少要超過15年最少啦那這麼重大的環島高速鐵路特別條例要求要在10年之內完成您覺得合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3026.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3051.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我覺得這個10年包括從可行線研究開始到最後完工10年之內相對於過去的各個計畫執行之一相對是比較樂觀而且是可能跟實際上的需求可能有比較大的差距這個相對的樂觀你當然講的是比較保守啦但是我覺得就你們在實際的執行面上來講這是困難重重啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3052.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3081.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
比如說我看到他講的這個方案目標跟實施範圍第二個可行性評估方案第三個高速鐵路沿線的建設規劃這少說也要兩三年嘛第四個土地徵收取得這一條很嚴重土地徵收取得單單你在土地的協調的部分你就必須花上很多很多的時間如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3082.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3104.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
土地的主人不同意那政府是要採取強制徵收嗎跟王一樣我就是要做你土地就是要搞出來跟王一樣的去徵收否則你不可能在10年之內完成啊那整個這個特別條例感覺出來不知道錢在哪裡也沒有講要多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3106.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3122.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
然後只設的一個時限就是叫你們10年之內完成,而且還不是叫交通部去評估,叫國發會去評估,叫一個不是懂交通的國發會去評估,那我也不太懂這個條例到底推出來是真的要給他過,真的要做,還是只是胡說八道。 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3122.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3148.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那剛剛這個副總召說環島高速鐵路這個交通部王部長說不是夢希望能夠完成我們也當然樂觀其成啊但是應該是要循序漸進按照所有的這些規劃流程去進行這是比較符合常理嘛可是我不曉得剛剛我們的韓院長在影片裡面又加了一段說還要打通中央山脈 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3150.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3173.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我的天啊 打通中央山脈沒有在這個條例裡面欸所以他說他只提兩個案 那他提的那兩個案沒有包括打通中央山脈欸那條例沒有包括打通中央山脈 那是不是打通中央山脈也要放進去 要弄一個修正動議把它放進去嗎那打通中央山脈 這個我看你們的評估可能10年之內都做不到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3175.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3196.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
所以市長我覺得是這樣啦吼推動建設大家都願意我為了推動國道10號延伸我弄了十幾年那假如可以這樣子每一個立法委員都去搞一條重大建設發展條例那我也請我的助理開始在寫高雄重大建設發展條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3198.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3221.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
這個沒有預算我的預算大概是一兆我也要懇請國發會重大建設發展條例就不是只有交通囉這整個高雄的所有的經貿發展喔這個當然我就要懇請國發會來予以大力支持喔一兆一兆就好了我都不貪心給我們高雄過去重北輕南這一次請國發會能夠比照 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3224.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3225.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
李玉琳委員請作詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3254.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3256.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
一些主席請公主委我們再請公主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3265.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3290.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
3月22號我們的電價審議委員會已經拍板定案從今天4月份開始就來漲電費了漲了將近11%等於是每度電大概到了這個3.4元這個新高了那最重要的是王美花部長特別有提到漲電費不能成為漲物價的藉口 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3291.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3318.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
他這個說法請問主委你認同嗎?報委因為每一家廠商或是每一個行業他對於電價的這個他的成本結構裡面不一樣主委你就了解到成本的問題所以他講這句話有道理嗎?就要看這個廠家他對於在成本結構裡面電價佔的比例是多少所以業者在成本的考量之下就會來調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3320.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3329.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
主委本席會這麼問就是因為我們國發會也就是物價穩定小組的一個成員所以你看到這個電費高漲的時候在業者的成本反應之下他們當然調整啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3346.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3352.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
你不能說漲電費成為物價漲價的這個藉口那你是叫所有業者都要共體時間關門大吉嗎所以我們還有其他的措施比如說剛剛提到平準物價的相關大眾物資的這個進口的相關稅會從3月份延到減免的部分會延到6月份那會請問一下這個基準點有幾個月呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3372.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3398.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
你認為說電價跟物價不會影響的這個基準點呢?你就這樣調整就一直調整下去嗎?電價當然對物價多多少少是會有一些影響按照主席總書預估出來也是有一些些影響所以漲電價也會直接影響到物價是不是?多少會對會嘛所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3399.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3420.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
王部長他特別講說不會有直接的影響這句話大家都無法認同啦所以我們希望我們的國發會針對這個漲價這種情形你們在物價審議小組上穩定物價小組你們就必須提出一個因應的措施因為這個就是我們的能源配比 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3421.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3447.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
能源政策是錯誤的未來在新的政府賴清德上任之後的話也應該對於能源政策這個配比管理上面好好的做一個檢討調整對不對我們這個就是物價的這個督導這個憑督導會報我們是幕僚機關是隨時都會每個月都會開會所以了解整個物價的變化情況如果真的是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3448.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3475.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
有狀況我們就必須應應的處理因為我們的電價節節高升台電也一直在虧損這個就是能源配比的問題能源政治的問題所以一定要好好的調整好不好接下來本期要請教的就是主委上個禮拜我們交通委員會把這個花東快速公路這個建設特別條例已經送出委員會做黨團的協商那今天也特別針對我們這個花東的高鐵 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3479.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3498.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
環島的高鐵這個建設的條例特別送來我們委員會裡面這兩個案子會一起在這邊出現就是因為我們草野大家都在支持花東的交通尤其不管是蔡英文總統還是到現在的賴清德準總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3499.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3499.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3521.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3547.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我們承繼的這個運輸發展是最重要的可以發展成我們全台6小時的一日生活圈的規劃在2021年的時候我們交通部的王國才部長也特別提到環島高鐵的這個構想尤其在這個行政院長蘇貞昌表示會全力支持下所以請教我們國發會的廣州委你有什麼建議跟想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3548.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3565.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
發言委員,事實上我們近年來對於花東地區的這些重大的交通建設現在大概總共有12項,投入的金額大概有超過3000億所以對於花東建設事實上政府是非常的注重跟支持那您剛才提到說環島一日生活圈這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3566.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3566.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
〔主席〕 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3596.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3596.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3626.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3626.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
負責審議、從中協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3648.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3660.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
但是審議它不是一個主政單位主政單位還是要交通部我們會提供協助跟建議主委你不要一直往外推啦國土的這個空間規劃發展你就是主責單位難道這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3664.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3682.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
花東這個建設條例裡面建設這個整個重大建設高鐵也好快速道路也好難道是不是你的規劃你的主責嗎?你可以審議啊你可以做個協調者啊所以本席要提醒你說你就是可以從中來做個協調者的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3683.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3705.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
因為它是一個單一的交通的案子,它不是一個整體性的案子。如果是整體性的案子的話,也許我們還可以有一些初期的一些規劃的一些想法。但是它已經進入到實質的一個單一的交通案子了。那這個比較細部的是交通部,因為交通部它所有的專業都在做這件事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3706.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3735.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我們國發會真正負責這個交通的只有5個同仁而已所以這個承擔分工是不太一樣的所以不是有多少人的問題是因為我特別提到就是我們的整體國土空間的規劃發展都是在我們的國發委的主責單位所以你可以做個協調者讓我們這條道路趕快來完成讓我們所有花東地區的人民有個安全安心回家的道路好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3738.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3738.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
接下來我們請張家俊委員請做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3765.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3784.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
主席我想請公主委我們再請公主委公主委今天審查環島高速鐵路建設特別條例請問環島高速鐵路建設是否為國家重大交通建設是交通建設沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3785.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3800.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
本席查了一下我們國發會的網站,國發會的網站說,重大公共建設計畫為國發會之主要業務,其中就包括了交通建設。那為什麼國發會的業務報告裡面說,你們不能當主管機關,這是為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3806.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3824.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我們主要是審議機關阿那我在 如果你仔細看 上面有沒有寫 台幣10億以上 交通建設、環境資源建設這就是審議阿 是阿 審議阿 所以你為什麼要甩鍋呢 你也可以把它承接起來審議阿如果這樣還不夠明確的話 前瞻基礎建設特別條例也明列 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3830.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3847.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
主管機關是國發會而且前瞻基礎建設就包括軌道建設怎麼會業務報告裡面說軌道建設裡面你們不宜當主管機關但在前瞻基礎建設上面你們又說你們可以當主管機關為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3848.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3873.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
前瞻基礎建設它是一個綜合型的,是一個大的八項裡面,但是單一的部分,軌道單一的……對啊,你看,軌道建設、數位建設、城鄉建設、列人建設、水資源建設、人才培育建設,還有因應草子化建設你都可以做,只有環島高速鐵路你不能做,是嗎?不是,單一的軌道建設主管機會還是交通部。 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3874.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3879.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那你為什麼這個前瞻基礎建設說你可以當主管機關現在說環島高鐵你就不行很明顯的你們想當主管機關的時候何止是軌道建設、食安數位、水環境你們都可以當主管機關啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3895.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3920.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
因為目前你們是幕僚單位、審議單位也是最適合跨部會協調的審議單位包括說花東地區的鐵路雙軌電氣化計畫、臺九花東縱谷公路安全景觀大道計畫還有蘇花公路安全提升計畫等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3921.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3939.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
都是國發會當主要的審議機關如今卻說環島高鐵建設你們管不了 你是不是 你們應該不是管不了 你是在推卸責任吧不是 我們可以當審議機關 跟剛剛您提到的那個台九線那個一樣我們是審議機關 那主政單位就是交通部 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3942.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3961.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
環島高鐵是攸關國家長遠計畫的重大建設這不只是花東人民要回家安全的路其實它也是我們台灣進步的一個象徵而且它能夠產生的觀光動能是非常的高的然後最適合 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3962.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3964.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我同意阿,就是您剛才提到我們擔任這個審議機關是說審議協調機關我就是接下來請一下我們胡次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3990.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4004.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
吳市長基本上呢我非常的感謝你過去對於雲林高鐵站的付出跟努力喔我非常敬重你是一個交通專業的人才那我想要聽一聽你的專業意見有關於這個環島高鐵您贊不贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4010.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4021.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
環島高鐵整體的部分我想能夠促成整個從宜蘭到屏東這部分把它新建起來那以高速鐵路整個運轉的這個效率來講確實可以縮短行車的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4024.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4047.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
所以你是支持的我是支持但是在整個推動的程序上我覺得要一步一步來去處理那如果以你蓋過這麼多的高鐵站可不可以請問您的意見說您建議這件事情的邏輯跟順序要怎麼做才有可能讓這件事情推行的更加快速 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4048.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4070.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
在我看到的條例裡面尤其關鍵的這個第4條談到了說希望10年之內能夠完成這個整個計畫那我覺得以我過去的經驗來講的話從可行性研究到綜合規劃這部分看起來就需要可能7、8年的時間才能夠去做但是你後面的這些處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4071.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4093.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
包括施工等等我覺得10年是相對不夠長那我想這個是大家可以共同來討論因為我們希望的是結果是要達到結果而不是說在書面上的這個乘一時之快我們也希望說結果是最重要的那我也想要另外再請問你有關於雲林站因為次長應該知道說雲林站現在的運載量是非常穩定的在成長常常也是一票難求 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4101.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4121.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
是不是可以請次長支持雲林高鐵偵辦?這個部分我想,到底上隨著月亮的成長,我覺得偵辦部分就任何一個營運單位來講,就是應該正面去看待這件事。我就問你,你覺得你自己當任這個交通部的官員這麼久,你自己的感覺雲林高鐵是不是應該偵辦? |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4123.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4147.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
應該可以朝正班的方向來就安排但是但是今天回頭去可能我們就得在原來考慮上的時候他整個列車組數的安排調度我覺得在如果現在現在有34組列車如果在停靠雲連這個可以允許的這34組列車調度的這個情況之下我覺得應該朝正班的方向來 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4147.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4166.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那我也想問次長說,你們是不是也有計畫購買新的列車?有,有那個今年會到幾台?台灣高鐵公司有在做採購,目前今年還沒有到,應該是在2023或者20...應該是2024年或...據我所知今年或明年,在今年年底應該會再來到10台 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4169.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4172.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
如果有這些列車到位我覺得在雲林停靠增班這件事情我覺得應該是更有利 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4188.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4211.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那這一件事情本席也拜託我們次長全力的來支持協助來推動好嗎是 謝謝另外我也在最後再表達一下就是雲林高鐵站當初沒有想像說運載量會這麼大所以它外面的交通流量也設計的量能不足現在常常造成交通阻塞然後回堵到很大概一公里吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4211.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4222.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那這樣子旋轉造成很多民眾的不便所以本席也在這裡要求我們交通部是不是儘速的來做一個雲林高鐵站後站的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4224.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4229.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
後站就是在因為南北應該是靠西邊靠海邊的方向嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4229.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4252.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
是是不是這一點本席也拜託說我們整個高鐵後站包括高鐵後站的這個進出口讓交通流量包括整個高鐵站的運載量也能夠擴大是不是這一點可以拜託我們次長儘速的來做一個評估然後來做一個規劃我們儘速來安排做評估好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4252.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4252.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
謝謝次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4258.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4259.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
請公主委我們再請公主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4292.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4318.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
主委你好我看你今天的這個報告啊巨人一千里之外你看看這個第4頁啊用得很重的話喔你說今天這個法應尚無需求以另立新法之方式推動環島高速鐵路的建設也沒有需要新建基金作為新經費的來源那如果照你這樣今天這個法是應該退回嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4319.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4343.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
報告委員,因為現在不管是化動地區或是所有的交通建設現在都有既有的這個機制在進行那也都滿足了大部分這個交通量的需求那如果將來環島高鐵有共識的話應該已經既有的機制就可以達到這樣的目的了所以這個案是53個立法委員連署提案喔立法院現在有幾個?113對不對?再加4個就過半啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4347.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4357.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
你這樣去年簽你之後你等於搭連了53位立法委員這個案子涉用可能在立法院過的啊那怎麼辦?退回嗎?還是等到了委員會審查到了院會去表決? |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4359.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4378.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這個當然是尊重貴院的這個處理方式我們行政單位是尊重只是說我們表達就是說環島高鐵這件事情當然是重要那也看到很多人都支持那就我們來講因為我們是審議機關所以我們還是請交通部他可以提出他的可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4379.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4402.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
主委你現在能不能清楚跟全國民眾跟我們的委員講你贊成把這個法案推回去是不是你今天用了這麼重的字眼啊你認為他也沒有需要立新法啊就沒有需要立這個法啊連錢也沒需要再編啊沒有需要用基金啊是因為現在的既有機制就已經可以辦了你看今天內政部本來也被邀了內政部只有短短一頁裡面幾乎沒寫什麼內容啊高通部也沒說我們這個故意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4404.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4431.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
公署委,公署委,就你提的企業滿滿的,還打臉人家、聚人千里之外,你要扛這個責任啊?就是花東地區的交通建設是大家都支持,這件事有共識嘛,只是說怎麼做法,讓它比較合理,那我們提出我們的看法這樣子。本席給他看一下一個案子,叫花東地區的發展條例,這個案子是什麼時候提的?民國100年,提案人是誰?民進黨的黨團喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4434.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4449.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
民進黨的黨團談的也是花東地區的發展它裡面的內容是什麼為了落實花東地區的永續發展中央主管機關應要設置花東地區的永續發展基金基金的金額多少四百億這裡面有兩個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4453.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4476.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
第一個他是可以成立一個發展條例的,連前400億都寫得清清楚楚所以前幾天在討論什麼違憲根本就不存在啊預算案立法院不得增加支出對不對可在法案裡面是可以的,這是第一個點第二個,諸位你看這個法在哪一個誰執政的時候通過馬英九的國民黨政府時代,我要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4478.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4494.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
民進黨團在民國100年可以提這樣的條例,當時的國民黨政府也可以通過,為什麼今天53個立法院不能提案?還要被退回,為什麼不能通過?馬英九行,為什麼蔡英文不行?花東地區的發展條例行,為什麼環島的高鐵就不行? |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4499.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4528.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
為什麼不行?不是 報告委員因為整個花東地區的這些綜合性的一些發展是這樣綜合性的一個發展的條例發展沒有既有的機制所以要成立一個特別條例來支持但是現在單一的交通的案件的話已經有既有的機制所以是不是按照既有的機制來當初也是民進黨黨團提的對不對國民黨也同意啦那為什麼馬英九那時候也沒有黨啊還讓他通過啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4529.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4552.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
民進黨黨團提案國民黨可以讓他過為什麼現在國民黨或者53個立法委員也提了為什麼民進黨就一定要去黨啊你至少讓他進到議員會好好討論嘛對不對因為你剛剛講的主管機關如果不是你的話也可以討論啊金額如果不要那麼多也可以討論啊主管機關如果不是國發會是交通部也可以討論啊當初國民黨用這麼硬的一個態度說要退回或者說他完全不可行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4553.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4575.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
馬英九可以,為什麼蔡英文不行呢?花東的發展條例行,為什麼環島的高鐵就不行呢?對,所以包委員,所以我們的態度是從執行面來看,現在既有的機制已經可以這樣做了,那我們就循既有的機制來這樣做。當初也有很多機制啊,在定一百年在定這個花東發展的時候,也是有機制在走啊,這個有什麼衝突嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4576.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4599.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
當初來講花東基金沒有一個綜合性的基金跟一個特別條例來做一些規劃那個時候是各部會用他的預算跟基金來做那我們有這個基金以後可以公務基金為主公務預算為主然後這個基金為輔來搭配來額外的支持主委這是一個花東地區整體的發展對不對是是是那現在提出是針對環島的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4601.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4626.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
對 它是一個交通的單一事項那這應該就是兩個是可以配合的啊 這個沒有排斥到後面啊為什麼不讓它並行去做呢你可以講 你可以講說好 那不要你國發會來主責你像這個裡面講的主管機關是誰中央政府啊 那你也可以講中央政府來管啊到時候看是要給國發會或者是交通部都可以啊為什麼一開始都要繼承你前提之外呢第一個我在問你 你在調查報告的第5頁裡面講到一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4629.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4647.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
你這是不是拆穿了國王的心意啊?看一下,你說10年來也做不到屏東段、也做不到宜蘭段的高鐵。你現在為了要推翻說環島的做不到,你這邊寫的是什麼?連到宜蘭、到屏東,10年來都可能做不到。你看一下左邊這個圖。 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4648.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4672.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
這是去年在選舉前連民進黨的立法委員陳俊宇他們爭取的是什麼?10年內要完成北宜高鐵就是要到宜蘭右下角這張是誰?賴清德直接講一條高鐵要打通屏東的任督二脈賴清德要打通任督二脈你們現在去把他堵住嗎?打不通了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4674.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4675.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
北部宜蘭段還牽涉環境影響評估、用地取得問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4693.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4714.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
有些會經過比較敏感的地區,那這個要環評過程是稍微比較有挑戰性的。主委我今天質詢你最重要的,你是管國家大政的,整體發展可以歸於國發會嘛,對不對?如果單純可能是交通部,老實講這條環島全部它不是單純的交通問題,它是整個國土規劃、整個國家發展非常重要的。我給大家看一下。主委你從這個圖你看到什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4721.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4739.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
北北基、桃竹苗、中張頭、雲嘉嵐、高屏、工業區都那麼多,現在漁花都只有11個區域發展嚴重失衡嘛對不對,再看下一張人口都外流了,花蓮也在外流,你看,它的人口成長都是負成長,再往下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4741.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4753.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
花蓮跟宜蘭現在開始有地熱了這是一個好的現象看下一張最嚴重的是什麼現在核心就是要推動區域的平衡發展嘛這個條例為什麼那麼多53個立法會簽包括本期也支持為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4754.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4776.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
東西失衡太嚴重,對不對?這應該是你的責任啊。不然我是盡責去支持這個東西發展的,你趕快這條路建起來,整個環島的這個高鐵建起來之後,東西就平衡了嘛,很多產業就可以到東邊來了嘛,是不是這樣?結果你現在如果把它擋下來,一些新興的發展也沒有辦法到東部去,人口跟工作機會也沒有辦法到東部啊。這是你的重責大任啊,我覺得你應該是投贊成票的啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4778.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4805.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
重道建設我們是支持的只是我們表達是說循現在既有的機制來辦理對我們的態度就是這樣所以你的循現有機制是怎麼樣?要由交通部來主管第二個這個案子到底要不要審?要不要審?你信不信?如果叫你這個今天在審的沒有立心法的需要性對不對?到底要不要審?不是這個要不要審這個是立法院的決議不是我能決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4806.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4833.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
你這個條文裡面看起來是不需要嘛對不對你表達立場認為不需要立新法嘛對不對然後要不要審由本院自己來決定是不是這樣我不要為難你就是你的報告裡面是沒有需要嘛那你的意思就是由我們自己來決定要不要審我當然是尊重立法院的決議啦但是我們還是表達立場就是說東部交通我們一定會全力支持阿現在的既有機制我們就可以循序漸進達到這樣的目的所以目的是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4835.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4858.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
目的一樣,可是我們希望透過這個新法要加快速度嘛。若照你的方法,不只是宜蘭、屏東10年做不到,那這個法再拖下去可能20年、30年,宜蘭、花蓮跟台東人民要等20年、30年,要等到高鐵是不是?若照你們今天的推估,要20年後、30年後,花東地區才會有高鐵嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4860.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4889.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這邊的人民太可憐了吧,不是一直講整體規劃是你啊,我們愛我們花東的人民啊希望他可以發展啊,要拖這麼久嗎?所謂的交通建設都是循序堅持 今天只要你支持這個案子花東地區的民眾可以早一點有高鐵,早一點有發展他的人口不用外流,工作機會可以回到花蓮跟台東人口也可以回到花蓮跟台東我們是支持這個交通建設,全力支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4890.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4891.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4911.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4914.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
政政前委員請坐謝謝主席,我想請一下公主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4937.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4950.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
主委好我們看了你剛剛的報告你也特別提到說按照現有機制你覺得是可行的對交通建設東部的開發高鐵你也是都支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4951.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4980.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
只是說聽起來你覺得說這個特別條例也許不一定那麼需要可是我要特別講一下就是說以目前來說我們今天特別在審環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案這部分有一個很大的重點就是我們希望整個高鐵這部分有一個上位的計畫所以我們看到的不只是交通建設的部分我們希望看到的部分還對整個區域均衡的一個發展觀光活動產業發展都會有一些幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4980.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4995.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
所以我們今天提這個部分其實是有一個很大的一個意義那因為當我們這樣有一個上位計畫出來之後的時候呢我們對整個全島整個全島的一日生活圈它也許就會有一些不一樣的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4996.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5019.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
對於整個東部的民眾來說他們也可以看到他們的希望在什麼地方可以看到一個全貌目前逐段評估我就對這部分其實沒有辦法去滿足的因為您剛剛也特別提到了對於整個東部的交通你是支持的對於我們這個環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案這個部分是我們立法院的權責所以你也都尊重對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5021.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5042.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這完全沒有理解你的表示嘛 對不對那我想特別講 其實坦白說這個環島高鐵這件事情不只是交通部王國材部長多次的表示他不是夢 他是一個可以去執行的事情那包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5043.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5071.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們現在的小英總統包括副總統都多次表示對於整個環島高鐵的一個支持所以我相信這個環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案我相信是應該是得到大多數的支持那我們從這個部分去完善一個上位的計畫讓我們看到整個全台灣一日生活圈如何的一個可行我想這是一個很重要的一個目的主委認不認同這樣的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5073.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5087.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
報告委員,事實上您剛才講的整個運輸整個整體國家的運輸事實上交通部他會定期的出所謂運輸政策白皮書會把您剛剛提到的那些是顧慮帶在裡面因為我在想說,當我們現在特別會 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5092.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5092.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
新竹清軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5121.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5126.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
公共運輸運用的比例大概有多少 主委知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5129.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5155.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
就是說我現在知道的輕軌的部分是有已經在大溪谷計畫裡面有納入了兩條輕軌的計畫已經納進去了就是紅線跟藍線嘛對不對所以那個既然納進去了我們就會按照我剛才講既有的程序那地方政府跟交通部就會循這個可行性研究開始做研究研究要交給我們審議我們審議會會整機關審議結完以後復刻行政院行政院核定以後就會進入綜合規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5156.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5157.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
大新竹輕軌國發大力支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5168.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5190.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
大力支持大力支持嘛 對不對那我想特別提到因為整個目前大新竹地區大家對於整個公共運輸的運用的比例只有6.1%大概全國很低的一個比例大部分的人都還是用自己的交通工具那我覺得當時也特別提到就是整個大新竹這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5191.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5192.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
新竹縣市與科管局 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5211.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5230.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
提出了一個方案希望在明年提出一個那個整個評估報告規劃出來那我想特別提到就是整個這個財務分配的部分因為對於整軌道交通的時候財務對於地方來講是一個很大的一個負擔那我看了一下我們新竹市政府113年度的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5231.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5240.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
稅出預算只有281.7億元扣除固定人事費、業務等經費經常性支出有233.46億元所剩無幾對於新竹大輕軌當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5247.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5267.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
新竹這一邊目前要承擔的部分光是紅線的部分就要197.6億元對地方上來講是沒有辦法負擔的所以本席認為說就是針對這個部分那麼中央這邊是不是有其他的一個補助的方案是不是有其他的一個方式可以來解決協助地方政府來解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5268.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5294.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
報告委員,我們所有的經費都是務實的做一些規劃,現在是這樣就是說,通常你一個捷運系統,它如果有自償性的部分,那自償性因為它會有收入,所以那個部分就會扣掉,那個是將來營運會回復。是,這個部分坦白說自償性就是當時很多地方政府覺得沒有辦法去發展軌道交通很重要的一個考量,所以我們才認為對於整個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5295.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5321.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
交通這個需求當中的時候我們希望政府能夠多負擔一點所以我這邊也特別提到因為剛剛你也提到說紅線跟藍線我就針對紅線的部分因為它有17.1公里那部分都在新竹市那麼我們希望說是不是有可能可以參考之前北捷萬大線還有環狀線或中捷綠線等等的方式讓中央跟地方依照所詳縣市的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5322.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5343.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
路線里程比例來共同分擔,這個部分有沒有可能?針對非自償的部分,我們有一個縣市他的財務狀況紅線部分目前來說也是中央跟新竹市、新竹縣一起來共同分擔嗎?所以新竹縣也會分擔到他們該分擔到的部分? |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5344.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5344.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5371.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5400.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
來接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢答主席、貴委員有請主委我們再請公主委鄭委員好主委好 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5402.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5430.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
今天特別針對環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案的一個審查會我們看交通部現任的部長王國才部長他曾經對媒體說環島高鐵不是夢他真的很想做但是愛很多很多的當然就是沒有錢沒有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5431.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5457.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
所以這個只要是要往這方向去努力的我們要共同的設法去往那個方向去努力而不是整個把它否決掉好 這個國安會也提到你的書面包括花東地區地形狹長做中央山脈及海岸山脈阻隔至交通發展長逸瓶頸也特別提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5458.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5485.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
為了使東部地區的交通發展更為迅速以建構可靠安全的交通運輸環境達到均衡台灣東西部發展的目的是行政部門共同努力的方向我們就是要往這方向去努力所以立法院的立法委員基於民意也希望跟行政機關共同的努力來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5487.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5516.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我們看這個我們就看西部西部高速鐵路的建設你的報告裡面說採徵求民間參與新建及營運方式辦理然後將會以臺灣高鐵公司簽訂臺灣南北高速鐵路新建營運合約由該公司負責路線、土建、車站、機電、軌道及後期營運等工作你的報告很簡要的寫了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5518.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5545.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
事實上,它有很多的轉折,其實有很多的轉折。1990年行政院核定台灣南北高速鐵路的計畫。當初的希望規劃6年內完成,但是由於經費來源及採用的系統規格等前置作業的時間過長,使得新建過程工程遲至1999年。 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5548.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5576.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
1990合定1999年才正式啟動所以原來的本來是希望政府編列後來又改為民間投資參與所以一定要往前走啦往前走之後怎麼樣去做因應不是這樣就結束囉對不對你看看臺灣高鐵BOT案 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5581.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5603.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
這個我們就講2000年,我們不講總統是誰了我們就講2000年,台糖與行政院開發基金投入了80億本來一開始都沒有BOT啊但是不得不啊,還是要推動是,還是要往前走再怎麼違法還是要做這樣啊,那時候其實是違法了,還是要做,要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5605.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5617.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
台糖與行政研發基金投入80億,2002年八家公股銀行及中央信託及認購173億元特別股,2005年航發基金,連中濟社也投入75億元特別股。這個就是政府要去協調、協助。 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5633.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5657.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
原來希望這樣,但是顯然出了問題,但是不能停了,要往前。所以這個部分,作為一個30年的公務員,當立法委員之後,我們怎麼樣共同的去推動,我們想出方法。所以這個部分是這樣。所以這個環島,今天要審查的條例, |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5658.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5676.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
草案第6條,它也提出了很多建設經費來源,得以下列方式,把過去的經驗,把過去的這些怎麼樣去把它納入在這裡面,才能夠往前走,不然的話就一直停擺。 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5680.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5701.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
環島高鐵不是夢就變成會夢了一直夢一直做夢不行了所以我們要繼續的努力這條文怎麼改都可以大家可以討論法律常常修嘛通過了之後還可以修啊所以這個部分的這個你的書面報告裡面提到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5703.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5732.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
規劃規劃規劃規劃規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5733.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5737.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
審議資源分配規劃國家發展計畫之規劃審議資源分配經濟發展政策之規劃審議及資源分配產業發展政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5758.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5782.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
產業、發動的產業、發動的經濟都包含國土、區域及力道發展及永續發展政策制規劃、審議及資源分配其他國家發展政策制規劃、審議及資源分配所以都沒有說一定不行實際上從你的組織執掌裡面也是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5785.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5808.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
這個條例,這邊寫主管機關為國家發展委會,你認為成績太低,改為行政院,也可以啊。對不對,不要說不行。因為發動第7發展條例的主管機關是誰?行政院嘛。可以,也可以改,大家可以討論。何況中央執行機關就是誰?交通部啊。OK啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5810.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5823.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
法治上可以討論,往前邁進,好不好,主委,可以嗎?因為很多案例,特別條例,石門水庫,針對石門水庫,我們現在針對花東高鐵, |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5829.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5830.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
接下來我們請林國城委員請做詢答。 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5859.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5861.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
前國建設藍土以及前國的經濟發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5885.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5914.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
主委是很重要的一個角色所以今天本席啊特別要跟主委談一談也就是今天大家都在問的環島高速鐵路這個問題我說實在這整個規劃沒有國發會這裡有認同其實送到哪邊都一樣但是我必須要提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5915.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5937.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我們主委因為你是直接受行政院長之指揮所以你又替台灣在掌握整個建設的藍圖所以我說實在對於任何的建設我是認為要平均發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5939.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5952.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
當然我們可以承認這幾年下來北部、中部、南部等等交通的建設以及任何的規劃我個人當然要肯定你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5953.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5960.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
請問一下東部的人難道不是中華民國的花蓮跟屏東嗎所以我為什麼本席特別要拜託你因為這些藍圖都是在你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5983.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6010.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
業務之管轄範圍當然如果在這個部分我們國發會對於這些離島的交通建設這是最後一塊板塊耶 主委所以我個人的看法不曉得主委對這整整個交通發展的板塊跟經濟的連結主委你有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6011.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6040.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
發言委員現在就是說王國燮部長有提到說環島高鐵不是夢那如果是這樣的一個發展趨勢的話那交通部可能在他的規劃裡面盡快的把他的這個可能的研究報告或可行性的部分把他勾勒出來那他會送到行政院行政院會交易給我們來做審議那如果說這個真的是可行我們當然是不僅是支持而且還幫忙做協調的工作這個就是我們可以做的沒有主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6040.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6051.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那我現在很冒昧的請教你現在不管是環快或者高鐵你個人讚不讚同 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6052.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6072.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
報告委員,就是說,我們現在就是說,因為我們是審議機關,所以就是要看到那個時期……不是,你審議機關沒錯啦,本席現在很冒昧直接問你,你對於這些東部地區的鐵道路或快速道路的建議案, |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6075.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6104.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
你個人有什麼看法?交通部他們在交通建設事實上對東部的交通建設投入也經費非常多我剛才提到我沒有跟你談經費的問題嘛你們投入的經費那麼多但是效果不髒嘛所以他們才要提這些但是像不管是高速鐵路或高速快速道路通通都是地區發展的部分所以當然因為我很尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6105.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6105.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6121.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6142.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
主委,你個人...我個人來講是臺灣任何地方只要有這樣的需求,我們就盡量來支持但是支持就是它要有一些過程、條件沒錯,主委,你不用再說那些了你個人基本上是支持東部交通的發展嘛,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6144.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6169.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
所以這個當然你個人是支持至於政策如何當然你還是要尊重行政院長他的最後決定但是以你看法你就是沒有反對沒有反對環島快速或者環島鐵路嘛所以你不不反對但是就要看交通部來福政次來 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6171.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6175.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我跟你講喔 主委是不反對請問你們部長喔 剛剛我還問他過這個部分 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6181.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6207.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
福政次你認為我現在問你你個人你們部長已經講過不是夢可是看起來是真的夢耶那為什麼立法委員提出這些建設政策的時候你們還講說這個是違憲啊不然這個是行不通啊為什麼來你們同不同意這個案子是委員所提的是環島高鐵嗎對好這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6211.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6232.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
環島高鐵補充這個補上去宜蘭到屏東的這一段跟現有的這個環島連成一個環這個方向我不要跟你講屏東我現在講的是花東我知道屏東那些東西我已經肯定你們啊你們有在進步有在做有在規劃那你現在就是花東這個問題今天我們談的是這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6235.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6246.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
你幹嘛要給我扯到那邊去呢?不是,我跟委員講的是一樣的,我說花燈會從屏東那邊連過來,我講的是這件事情那我跟你講,你這太勉強嘛,你太勉強啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6249.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6270.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
副市長我跟你講你要怎麼臉不管我就要看你心態我們主委他已經認為個人認為交通建設只要為台灣人好他們都同意做是跟委員你講的一樣表達同意只要交通建設對地區性發展有利我們一定支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6271.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6292.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
好一定支持齁好今天謝謝所以我希望花東人我並非花東人可是我看不過去所以我要拜託主委既然你個人當然是還要考慮到整個規劃的政策跟整個財源的籌措嘛所以我要拜託主委個人既然支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6293.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6294.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
林國昌委員請敬禮謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6325.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6346.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
今天大家都為了我們全台一日生活圈接下來我們請林佩祥委員請做詢答謝謝謝謝主席請次長跟主委請上台好我們請兩位謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6360.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6376.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
市長,當我們講到環島高鐵、環島高鐵、環島高鐵到屏東的時候,本席一直從當議員的時候都有一個想法,基隆在不在台灣裡面?那為什麼從來沒有聽人家講過,從來沒有任何考慮過說基隆也需要高鐵呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6378.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6394.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我從來沒有聽過這個打算我也覺得很奇怪那很多選民朋友一直問我這個問題我也不知道怎麼回答那我把這個問題直接問給主委跟我們次長請問基隆是不是有沒有打算高鐵建設到基隆呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6396.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6425.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我們現在的規劃高鐵並沒有要到基隆但是我們原來的規劃是從基隆另外建一個基隆捷運來銜接高鐵其實某個程度上基隆的課員因為我們都知道高鐵建設很吃這個所謂的課員高鐵建設沒有錯你要盈利的話都是靠旁邊的土地開發但是如果你沒有穩定的課員的話基本上這個高鐵建設也是沒有用的那基隆我可以保證有穩定的課員因為我們每天來台北上班的人超過10萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6426.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6454.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
每天那另外一方面基隆一天到晚我剛剛才在樓上跟交通部長王國才在討論說怎麼樣解決國道塞車如果你每天早上7點之前從基隆到台北這段高速公路都會再塞車的時候我們應該想個替代方案出來而有一句話叫做不患寡而患不均我想主委跟次長都知道吧那老實講你們認為基隆市民不值得嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6456.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6471.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
沒有,我們從來不會有這種想法那我希望你把本席的提案都讓我好好考量我想說一個書面報告來跟本席解釋說為什麼從來沒有考慮過的事情好,其實這個第二件事情其實也是因為說我剛剛看到國發會有個2040還是2050無碳 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6476.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6476.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
主委 您知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6500.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6511.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
目前主義總數估的大概是百分之三以上百分之三以上那我想請問一下台﹐經濟的成長跟電力的成長是絕對有正比的那台電負荷得了這百分之三嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6513.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6540.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
所以我們希望就是說現在一直在做嘛就經濟成長希望跟那個用電啊我們今年其實部長已經是那個王美芳王部長已經跟很多人講過已經在媒體上面講過說今年很有可能會缺電那經濟要維持電力不能缺甚至我們要增加電力其實我一直覺得很好奇是我們的國家政策裡面有沒有很務實的去把電力增加每年的電力增加把它放進去我們的國家政策裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6540.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6540.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
《環球時報》 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6558.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6577.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那我們在這個前提之下我們又想說我們要去大力發展觀光業那當然說那個王國燦部長前一陣子受到媒體採訪的時候也說入客不來對我們觀光業其實很吃虧但是主委可以想像說入客來了美客來了日客來了然後我們沒有一個穩定電力的觀光業嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6578.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6599.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
報告委員事實上經濟部他們有做了一些預估從現在到2030年的時候包括半導體的建設都把它算進去的話可能還要額外增加7個Gigawatt那現在他們已經準備了已經超過9個Gigawatt所以那問一個更迫切的問題請問全國全面減碳的電動巴士何時要上路2030年對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6607.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6627.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
阿翔請問一下要耗多少電?有沒有估計?如果你2030年全國的電動巴士都要上路,請問要耗多少電?要有電動窗,要有足夠的電,然後要有電動車,請問要耗多少電?有沒有計算過來?2030年需要多少電?好,那如果說我需要匯後給本席一個報告因為我想請問,如果要換成說這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6634.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6656.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
全國的電動公車所需要的電換算成核能發電廠我們要幾座?換算成台中的火力發電廠那個size我們要幾座?那我想請問經濟部準備好了沒有?台電準備好了沒有?同樣的問題我也直接問下去好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6657.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6663.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我們2030是全面電動巴士對吧我這都是國發會裡面的報告裡面寫的2030全面電動巴士2040全面電動小客車跟全面電動機車請問你們有沒有算過你需要多少電 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6672.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6681.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
因為今天我沒有帶來資料,基部有估算過,那我會後可以提供給這個委員同樣的問題啊,我們現在已經在喊要漲電價了,對吧?那如果說我們2030要換全面電動公車,2040全台灣要全面換成電動小客車跟電動機車的時候,我們需要多少電?那換算成要多少發電廠? |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6695.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6722.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
充電樁我們現在說完全沒有資料我們只說我們2030我們要全面電動巴士我們2040我們要全面電動小客車聽起來超美好的可是實質上怎麼做到有估算啦但是好那我問你如果有估算的話那請問是不是每年都會漲電價因為這些聽起來都是非常耗電的東西啊我們要無碳化我們不要石化能源我們什麼事都要跟國外俱進那我們有沒有電 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6724.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6742.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
電是沒有問題,但是...電沒有問題,請問跟我講什麼電沒有問題?現在開始圈電,現在導播要說我沒有問題的前提是不是讓我們全民每年漲電價?包委員,我剛才也先跟您報告過,到2030年他們估計出來可能額外增加7個GW嘛,那現在他們已經準備超過7個GW但是等於幾個核電廠?要有幾個核電廠才能說你說到7個MW? |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6748.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6763.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
有幾個核電廠還是幾個火力發電廠還是幾個還是幾座風力發電廠幾座水力發電廠為什麼因為我們現在很好奇就是說我們現在只知道你們跟我專業數據之後我們根本不知道這等於是多少電或者是你要可以跟我講說那我們每年電價要漲幾度要漲幾度要漲多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6767.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6780.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
電價的部分可能還是要看當時的情況跟電價有個審議會機制正在做這樣的估計部長那我這樣子直接問好了請問這樣子急救張的政策我們每年的電價需要漲多少才會不讓台電到這個可能要不然這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6790.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6816.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
長官你們承諾本席齁明年絕對不漲電價這最基本的可以嗎因為今年一定要漲一次了明年可以不漲嗎可不可以這個我沒有辦法承諾你這樣講話本席真的真的是想罵人都不知道該怎麼去罵民眾最關心的電價然後你們一天到晚說你們要無碳家園你們一天到晚說你們要全面電動車你們一天到晚說你們要全面小客車然後最後面連電都沒有算清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6817.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6832.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那你是怎麼樣跟全民交代我希望會後有一個完整的書面報告不然同樣的問題我下一次還是會再問一次我會問到說你們給我書面報告而且解釋給我清楚而且給全民清楚說電價到底漲多少以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6853.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6855.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
現在請楊瓊英召委發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6877.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6893.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
本席要請教我們中央政府各項的交通建設因缺乏整個全國性、整體性的一個規劃所以導致東西部的交通以及區域的發展嚴重失衡花東地區連對外運輸都不變 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6897.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6923.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
而且呢他鐵路一票難求他的航空班次又少海運更是不便所以造成整個地區性的一個封閉落後西部地區的發展了將近40年在這樣的一個情況之下我們非常的歡喜聽到也看到蔡總統以及總統賴清德先生還有歷任的行政院長陳儒蘇貞昌院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6926.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6950.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
現任的王國才部長都認為我們整個全國6小時的一日生活圈是非常必要的你認同嗎?認同接下來本期要告訴你的是我們看到台灣高鐵從最初建設台北板橋開始一直到左營等8個站 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6952.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6972.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
因應地方需求,所以在104年更增設苗栗、彰化、雲林三個站。105年又延伸到南港。108年交通部終於拍板定案,延伸到屏東六地處站。110年再延伸到宜蘭共構。 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6976.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6996.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
告訴我們最快也就是明年114年要動工125年要完工所以因此最後的一塊拼圖就是我們所提的這個特別條例為什麼要提這個特別條例台灣不能再等待 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6996.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6997.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
為了落實建設我們全島 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7012.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7012.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
請教諸位 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7031.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7039.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
請教主委有沒有認同有沒有這個急迫性均衡區域發展我認同均衡區域發展那本席再告訴你你今天的報告第4項我給你打一個負分連0分都不夠即可 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7046.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7067.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
今天這麼重要不分藍綠大家都希望大家全力的支持今天你國貿會我說你是我們政府非常重要的心臟啊是我們的頭腦嘛做一個整合所以因此主管機關單位在您身上啊您竟然在第4頁裡頭立即否決本心非常的納悶耶到底我們給台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7075.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7100.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
六小時的一日生活圈是大家都非常積極非常不分藍綠白大家全力支持只有你一個人在推什麼理由啊請告訴我什麼理由啊我沒有推啊你沒有推你說你不適當啊你國防會不適當啊環島六小時這也是交通部主政他提出來的願景在你回答之前本席先告訴你背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7101.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7123.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
國力的提升它包括了這個條例非常重要包括了我們觀光旅遊包括東部人要回去的路一條安全的路包括醫療需求包括產業交流等等等是整個我們國力的提升國力的提升不是你國發會必須來主政的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7124.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7142.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
是不是請做說明你為什麼會寫了一個第4頁你不適當太離譜了請做說明交通部的交通院警裡面都委員剛剛關心的已經做了規劃我們現在就是把交通部他規劃的部分你還要讓我們再等最後一塊拼圖要等20年30年嗎我再告訴你國防會主委你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7154.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7181.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這個要個別的這個部會我告訴你我也做了一個統計我告訴你前瞻計畫大家藍綠白全部支持也是由你主管機關單位我再告訴你花東地區發展條例也是你主管機關單位再接下來我再告訴你自由經濟示範區特別條例也是你主管機關單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7184.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7186.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
為什麼你今天在第4頁裡頭會有這樣子的開除呢?為什麼?為什麼?我在告訴你當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7210.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7220.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這一個特殊傳染病肺炎治療以及疏管特別條例還是你主管機關還是你你怎麼不去叫衛福部呢因為他要跨部會嘛我再告訴你你當時軌道技術研究及驗證中心的設置條例也是你啊本期算一算就有五個就是你啊為什麼你要這麼推 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7239.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7267.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
大家都一致認同不分藍綠白 各位你要扛起你的擔當今天我們好不容易過半的委員大家都支持我也願意相信沒有人會反對藍綠白都支持我們應該好好的冷靜的去思考怎麼樣延伤讓我們為子孫留下真正的生活圈6小時一日游這是非常重要的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7268.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7296.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
所以本席結論要請教你有利於民眾的需求是不是就應該要全力去推動是不是是那有沒有政治的考量有沒有政治可行性的評估你來對抗我們整個民生、交通、建設的可行性評估有沒有我們不會有政治考量不會有政治考量那你就沒有理由去推 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7298.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7304.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
沒有理由去推脫 對不對本席也提出了五項五項以往不管是藍執政、綠執政都有這樣的潛力啊都有這樣的潛力啊所以主委本下還是要告訴你你不要用政治考量去否定了多數民意的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7324.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7326.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
分工的部分還是部會還是哪些分工? |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7361.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7361.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
蔡奇昌議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7386.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7406.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
兩位好本席先講結論本席支持這個高速鐵路這個全島應該好好的來想想看本席也支持花東建設本席更支持交通平權 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7408.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7430.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我先講結論的原因是因為我要講那我反對什麼我反對用特別條例來處理所有國家的重大建設或者交通建設上個禮拜在花東快本席已經質詢一次了我們憲法規定啊憲法行政權跟立法權是分開的這個叫權力分立 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7431.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7457.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
換言之,立法權所賦予、憲法所賦予立法院的立法委員的立法權,我們該監督行政權,但是我們不可以凌駕行政權。如果所有國家的交通建設、重大建設,我們都列一個特別條例,這種方法可行。我上個禮拜也跟王部長講,這一步若無法通,你拼命就要靠電給我。本席會提大台中, |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7459.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7470.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
建設發展條例,差不多一條啦,你們就趕快把它創好,我會跟你們講,項目在哪裡喔,都把它創好,一步如果會通,我上禮拜我就講過了,那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7471.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7492.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
全島的這個高鐵,本席你感覺你怎麼去辯護嘛,這是專業,專業我待會在這裡講,但是如果立法院可以用特別條例來幹這個事情,那本席接下來就會提,如果可行啦,這種案件如果會過,本席就提全島捷運建設特別條例,交通平權耶! |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7495.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7523.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
楊瓊英主席他的選區沒有捷運啦本席的海線的選區也沒有捷運啊我們海線的鄉親也交稅為什麼我們沒有捷運高鐵那個富奎委員住在那裡他恆春啊高鐵不就附到恆春去平泉嘛交通平泉每一位都要有高鐵有捷運再來機場很多地方沒有機場啊交通平泉啊我們應該每個地方都要有機場啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7524.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7532.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
接下來國安會科學園區地方要均衡發展全台灣各縣市最好各鄉鎮都有科學園區這個叫平權嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7535.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7556.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
可以這樣幹嗎?本席其實不反對說你們要循專業、正常、現在的程序下去評估該有科學人區就應該讓他有科學人區啊該有捷運就讓他有捷運啊該有機場就應該讓他有機場啊但是這個建立在一個專業理性的一個評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7557.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7568.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
好 那什麼叫專業理性的評估為什麼交通平權我們還必須要一個專業理性尊重民意的評估我想兩位很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7569.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7589.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
如果我們今天本席說我也同意我們應該來了解全台灣的高速鐵路要怎麼做你們下一步一定是跟基隆、屏東一樣先發高鐵延伸不是基隆高鐵延伸宜蘭高鐵延伸宜蘭高鐵延伸屏東的可行性評估對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7591.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7620.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
可行性評估經過專家學者各地的意見整合完之後如果覺得可行那第二步是不是要進行叫做綜合規劃那現在鐵路高速鐵路的延伸對於宜蘭跟屏東進行到什麼階段綜合規劃就是綜合規劃對不對好綜合規劃過了那接下來要進入什麼你要做環評嘛因為台灣還有很多的環團 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7622.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7640.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
他對於對於台灣這個環境生態的影響到底巨不巨大有沒有衝擊會不會破壞台灣的環境好啦這個叫環評我們要把環團把地方的意見都整合了環境影響評估過了那接下來是什麼來回答我我來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7643.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7668.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
報委員,我們現在的綜合規劃跟環評是同樣一個程序嗎?沒有關係,我只是把程序告訴你。但是這個完了,走完了之後,在行政院奉合訂之後,我們後來就辦理設計施工。對,就西部設計,編列預算,下去施工,是不是這樣子?是。這個叫做重大建設的程序啦。任何一個重大建設都必須要走這樣的程序。哪怕本席過去在當副院長的時候, |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7669.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7688.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我跟你們交通部國安會要求包括大台中的建設包括我們的捷運南線、鐵路、雙軌化你們還是一樣要走這個程序嗎不會因為本席是執政黨也是副院長所以你們就說好一定會走如果你們一定會走這個在政治考量因為你看我是副院長看我是執政黨嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7690.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7715.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
可是站在你們交通專業立場你們必須任何一個交通建設可能影響的層面都必須要顧及都通過了才可以做對不對這個就是交通平權跟專業理性尊重名利甚至你過了原住民部落你只要交通建設經過原住民的部落你還要開部落會議通過因為這是法定的程序嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7716.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7739.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
你要尊重原住民的意見阿 到底願不願意讓鐵路過去 讓道路過去阿 這個叫做專業意見所以如果沒有經過這個程序 我們光談平權 光談支持 本席很支持嘛我講過 上個禮拜我講過 花東的建設 花東人要有一條安全回家的路等多久了 當然支持 為什麼要反對他 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7740.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7769.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
全台灣各地有高鐵不好嗎?很好啊!剛剛那個林委員基隆的他也在問你啊基隆為什麼沒有高鐵平權啊各地要均衡發展啊基隆人不是人嗎?我也問你同樣的問題嘛我們大台中每一個地方沒有捷運的區域占大多數啊本席的選區啊甚至啊在這幾年內啊10年內才有公車的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7770.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7794.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
連過去連公車都沒有阿本席一直要求阿林市長的時代才把我們大安區不是台北那個大安喔是台中的大安喔才有公車進去阿平泉阿很讚阿本席很支持阿但是平泉如果沒有建立在這個情況下立法委員在立法院透過特別條例就可以來做這個阿就天下大亂阿嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7796.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7809.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
10年要叫你通過本時最好,看能不能5年叫你通過不更好?這裏面寫10年嘛,看能不能5年嘛,為什麼不行?你講清楚嘛,你們要跟社會大眾說明清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7810.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7835.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
抓一個時間過就是強迫,你如果環境影響沒過要怎麼辦?你不就違法?你不就因為條例寫10年啊?你要是10年沒有過,你不就要跟環團講說不行,立法院說10年一定要過,你們環境一定要允許才可以。不通啦!這叫做不通啦!不能這樣亂舞啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7838.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7866.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
這個就是本席一直在提這個事情我都支持這些我們委員都為地方在講話每一個委員都有他的立場都希望為家鄉繁榮進步本席也一樣嘛但是如果國家這個程序你沒有把它做好國家這個程序大家不遵守立法委員直接提案立法院多數暴力把它表決通過逼你行政部門做我想請問大家憲法權利分立的原則在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7867.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7892.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我做立法委員我就提案,只要國會多數我就硬闖硬幹,國會多數暴力我就逼你一定要做,那你行政權要幹什麼?憲法可以允許這樣幹嗎?可以允許都不需要壓時間給你,不需要任何到底這個可行性可不可行,環境可不可行,原住民朋友的意見可不可行,他們同不同意,然後你就一定要幾年就一定要通過。 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7895.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7914.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這個就是本席為什麼我先講結論本席絕對支持交通平權我也支持花東重大建設但是我們一定要在法律從憲法到相關程序法律上面這個才有辦法把這些事情一一來完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7915.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7934.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
所以本席把結論已經講完了時間也超過了我覺得你們要認真來思考這個問題要讓所有的國人跟立法院同仁都知道站在公務同仁立場為什麼我必須要把這些事情做好沒有人反對建設啦好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝接下來我們請徐副葵委員請做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7951.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7954.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
謝謝主席 有請拱族委跟胡政次是 我們再請兩位 謝謝兩位好 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7964.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7980.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
主委、政事我想剛剛聽到我們蔡委員慷慨激揚的論述講到交通平權本席也是感同身受因為我們屏東縣要拖一條高鐵也是很漫長的道路那我印象最深刻從 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7981.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8009.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
2019年我們的蘇貞昌前院長合併之後南延屏東,到現在經過5年目前也進入到所謂的一個綜合性規劃的階段我相信這就是我們早起降、早步來的一個端端主委,那我想,如果說這樣子我們現在目前提出這個環島高鐵的一個建設條例是不是一個可行、可以這樣子一個走捷徑的一個計畫?你個人的看法是怎樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8011.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8032.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我們還是就是因為剛剛提到的不管是交通建設也好或是過去的這個西部高鐵也好它有相關的經驗那所有的這些程序也都完備法令也都也都有完備那我們還是認為說所有的交通建設還是依據這樣的程序來辦理會比較適當妥當有節奏性的來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8033.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8050.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
主委本期的看法是這樣子就是如果說每個委員針對自己的選區要對我們的選民負責任我們跳過所謂交通部跟國會走相關正常程序的過程大家都來提這個特別條例你贊成嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8053.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8072.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
這樣的話就會整個整個我們建設的這個節奏就會有一點這個因為每一個都是強制性的話那我們就沒有辦法做專業評估什麼事情要先做那什麼步驟該怎麼走那因為我們這個步驟都有他的這個專業性在做一些評估還有他的程序上的一些考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8073.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8097.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
所以誠如剛剛我們蔡委員講的本席也支持我們未來交通部甚至我們行政院針對整個全島的一個交通網絡應該做一個全面性的盤點但是現在很可惜的高鐵連屏東都還沒有跨過來也還沒到潮州怎麼到花東地區所以我想我們都是照行政院的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8098.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8123.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我們都在交通部循相關的程序在進行程序那我想國會應該也是這樣的態度那所以我們的賴總統未來的賴總統他在去年的時候也在各地都提到一個很重要的一個觀點叫做區域均衡發展那所以區域均衡發展我們很重要一個部會叫做國發會我想我們的主委對變動也非常了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8126.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8146.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
主委那我想這邊要特別強調就是說我們屏東縣長期因為一個城鄉的落差所以包含我們的自來水普及率人行道的普及率還有污水的處理這些很多的基礎建設明顯的落後我們的一個所謂的都會區那未來我們國會怎麼樣針對屏東縣來做一個相關的資源的一個規劃怎麼樣來協助屏東的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8152.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8170.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
請主委回答一個地方的發展有幾項重要的建設重大建設要處理的第一個您剛才提到的交通建設這個部分這個是人來人往都需要這個交通來做支持那另外就是產業的發展所以我們在前幾年也合訂了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8171.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8188.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
沿著這個高鐵如果到屏東的話那屏東的六塊柱將來就會有一個科學園區來做一些發展作為基礎那如果以這個作為base的話如果發展起來那可能規劃就可以更大那地方就可以慢慢繁榮起來大概有這樣的一個思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8189.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8208.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
主委那這邊要特別還是要拜託我們國安會因為我們相關的期程在整個規劃上面包含所謂的一個可行性評估綜合規劃跟環評這個時間都拉得非常非常的長那怎麼樣來做有效的一個整合把時程拉短這部分主委能不能來做協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8208.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8224.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
是,就是說國安會作為這個剛剛提到審議跟這個協調機關來講一旦這個是政策是很重要的方向那我們就會全力支持把這個事情做好那所以就是說我們審議的過程當中我們不是說表達怎麼樣的反對而是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8225.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8250.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
因為你有許多的法規,包括我們講這個環評你需要考量到還有地方的意見上的共識是不是經過敏感地區等等的一些還有用地取得那這個都需要有一點時間把它處理好那你才有辦法在施工的時候就很快不然你先期作業這些都沒有處理好用地取得跟環評都沒有處理好直接就施工的話那就卡住了 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8251.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8261.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
他就永遠就沒有辦法往前推進了所以我們說為什麼要按照這樣的既有的程序來辦理他這個程序一個步驟一個步驟都有他的這個原理跟基礎在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8263.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8288.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
主委我想我們的蕭美琴未來的副總統她上個禮拜有提到我們政府明年要展開所謂一個地方創生3.0的一個計畫那因為我們屏東縣長期以來在這個地方創生對我們鄉鎮尤其是偏鄉是一個非常重要的一個建設的計畫那針對這個部分國會是不是可以做怎麼樣的一個協助我們一定支持的就是說如果地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8289.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8310.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
有任何這個地方創生的提案不管是鄉鎮公所提案也好或地方的青年人他們自己組成的社團團隊來提案我們都會支持但是有幾個條件它必須符合在地的DNA而且它要符合地方共好永續發展這幾個原則我們就會全力來支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8311.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8327.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
主委,我們地方、我們的屏東的人很單純,大家有蓋好的生活,也很務實,但是關於這個整個計畫上面的一個推動上面需要我們國會更多的協助跟努力,這部分是不是可以來琢磨一下? |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8329.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8343.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我們現在在屏東現在地方創生的案子總共已經通過的是9個案子所以在整個台灣來講算是數量還算蠻多因為主要是有很多的年輕人事實上他的創意是非常非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8344.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8344.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8363.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8364.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8391.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8391.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
賴慧芸議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8414.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8435.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
主委、次長我想這個重大的交通建設想大家都努力在爭取但是其實也要特別提醒不管是藍綠白、朝野各政黨所有重大建設其實都牽扯到了這個資源上的分配還有一些相關我們認為其實都要審慎來做一個思考跟評估就像我還看到這個2019年的時候當時的韓國瑜現在院長當時要選總統的時候他還特別講到了這個高鐵 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8442.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8450.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
應該用長遠的角度來思考,不要造成一個盲藏線的高鐵。主委同不同意類似這樣的看法? |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8452.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8479.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
所有的這個交通建設有地方上的需求然後我們經過可行性評估跟綜合化可行我們就全力來支持所以每一個重大建設都要審慎去做思考跟評估這個才能夠把國家的有限的資源達到最大最大的一個效益我想這是大家的高度的一個共識那依現在因為我看到你報告裡面有提到這個你的第三點裡面有這個提到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8480.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8496.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
第4點,你的高鐵的經費來源的部分,那我問一下,如果這樣的經費將來要花到多少?現在看來主要是花東段,如果高鐵要還過去的話,因為你已經做到宜蘭也做到屏東,未來這個要不要增加一兆兩兆的經費? |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8499.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8524.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
這個專業上就可能交通部來回答來請次長是跟代委員報告目前我們對於說宜蘭街道街道屏東的中間經過花蓮台東的這段目前我們還沒有做相關的評估還沒有做評估所以要先做依照過去的要先做這個評估我們要做可行性所以評估才會有經費才會有相關的一些可行性整個出來是所以應該循這樣的程序來走啦是 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8524.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8542.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那我要講的是因為如果現在做這樣的一個做一個這樣的特別條例的方式去做訂定看來主要是針對花東這一塊的啦那如果這樣的話那其他每個地方如果都要比照這樣的方式處理的話那國發會或交通部會不會很困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8544.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8571.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
主委先講好了主委先講所以我們還是所有的重大的公共建設也好或者是交通建設我們還是認為就是說循線展因為以交通部來講他們全台灣有一個運輸交通的一個白皮書那現在白皮書規劃出來以後比如說全台灣可能一日生活圈6個小時那怎麼樣我們就一塊一塊拼圖把它做好那循現在的這個所以循相關的程序來走啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8572.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8589.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
要不然以主席的選區臺中很重要高雄這邊也很重要如果每個總共22個縣市啦如果每個縣市都來提一個特別條例來做這個相關的處理的話那我看這個整個也會很亂啦同時間整個行政院包括國發會恐怕也會非常的忙碌這樣是一個適合的方式嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8591.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8612.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
對,所以我們才說施政還是有它的這個原來的發展願景,那這個發展願景來講的話就循序漸進所以建設可以持續來推動,但是一項外程序走,那用這樣特別條例不是一個好的方式因為我們全台灣的這個建設的能量也是有它的限制,不可能同時間擴張一倍兩倍這樣來做一些處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8614.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8631.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那所以這個那我再問吼包括你們也提到你們報告裡面吼這個相關的權責機構西部的這邊的高鐵吼從台北到高雄這一段是由交通部來負責那唯獨這樣會變成是未來這一段是是國發會負責嗎?如果這個條例這樣通過是國發會負責還是交通部來負責? |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8635.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8662.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
所以我們才說希望這個所謂的交通建設主管機關還是希望有一致性因為它是單純的交通事項那交通部現在已經有它一個完整的一個藍圖規劃那他們也按照他們的節奏在做一些研究甚至於如果要真的需要的話就會跨到可行性去做研究那研究它會循正常的管道、報道行政來我們來做審議協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8663.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8684.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
所以如果將來要做這樣的建設應該是走我可行性相關的部分然後由交通部去循這個過去的程序來走就像從過去的高鐵從台北到台中到高雄這樣的方式來進行包圓到用這樣才是一個正辦的方式那如果用採用現在採用這種特別條例的部分國發認為其實不是一個比較好的方式是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8686.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8713.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
對 因為我們覺得就是說已經既有的機制了嘛那這個機制現在看起來就是還算順利就是也沒有什麼自愛難行的地方次長要不要說一下如果這樣的狀況都這樣改的話會不會將來會有點混亂交通部跟國發會各自主導一部分會不會很混亂這部分是會造成一些處理程序上的一些困擾所以次長交通部這邊的意見希望這個統籌是由交通部來處理以相關的程序來辦理嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8715.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8738.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
如果說按照現有的程序我們認為是比較妥適的好 我也要提啦 其實在憲法第70條的時候其實有一條是立法院對行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出之提議我也認為其實 行政跟立法是相互尊重的齁那我認為 如果以這樣的東西不斷通過的話它動輒 像這樣加下去 當然次長很客氣沒有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8739.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8758.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
看來可能是一兆兩兆的一個經費的話這恐怕是另外一個變相的由立法院去要求行政院做一個這個支出的一個決議那這樣的時候將來這些的責任是由誰來負擔會很混亂就是說將來這件事情的政策上的一個決策的成敗的負擔由誰會很混亂那每個立委每個選區來競相加碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8760.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8778.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我認為這個反而會造成了行政權跟立法前一些混亂的一些狀況我認為其實不是個好方法我認為還是應該回到由行政機關依相關的審議所立法委員當然爭取這幾年我跟好多位委員包括楊俊宏我們爭取到好多的經費都是在尋溝通的角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8778.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8807.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
去不斷的去協調之後然後說服行政機關那開始的他整個啟動相關程序可行性啦然後等等然後再來編列經費我認為這個才是一個正辦由行政體系來走而立法院做一個建議跟監督的這樣的角度來走我認為是正辦如果動輒都是由立法院來發動那不斷的由那這個行政跟立法全會相互混亂掉那將來這件事情的對錯由誰來負責當時是由立法院通過要求做的那這個責任是應該由誰來負 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8809.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8834.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
最後發現有很大的一些問題的時候所以我認為不應該新的國會起來要把這個界限還是要拉清楚不然將來那個權力分立的原則整個會破壞掉我認為對整個台灣不見得是個好事情最後一點點我想要用一點時間再問一下我看到昨天有個新聞出來韓國的政府他們看見了風力發電做得很好他們在20300要達到14倍以上這個包括日本也看到了台灣做了283支的風電他們現在做53 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8837.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8851.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
日本跟韓國都看到了台灣在風電這邊的速度相當快他們非常認同所以顯見台灣的風電政策是走在正確的道路上而日本韓國都在跟進著台灣主委怎麼來看待這樣的新聞跟未來台灣是不是應該加速整個綠電的推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8853.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8868.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
是,因為離岸風電從2016年開始我們就積極的開始推動那現在也算是有階段性的一些成果了那現在經濟部也在辦第三階的這個區塊開發的一些相關規劃那我們希望大家也可以盡量往這個方向來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8869.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8889.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
臺灣走在一個正確的道路上特別是綠電這全世界的趨勢臺灣現在是領先連日本韓國都在更近臺灣的腳步我也希望國發會、經濟部各部會應該持續來推動這個政策方向絕對是正確的應該要大家全力推動讓臺灣在綠能、在能源這塊繼續走在世界的前端好 謝謝接下來我們請林俊憲委員請做詢談 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8901.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8908.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
好,謝謝主席。本席邀請我們國外會公組委、我們交通部副市長。好,我們請兩位,謝謝。來,林委員好。主委好。我們今天一起來關心,其實主要是臺灣整個環島的交通,尤其是花東地區跟西部的一個交通連結。那政府目前, |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8929.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8956.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
為了要達到這樣的交通改善我們過去是做西部高鐵、東部快鐵我先請教交通部東部快鐵就是所謂的花蓮、台東之間的大概路廊的提升更換軌距,主要是台鐵包括立體化,很多地方要立體化搭配電氣化和雙軌工程目標就是希望東部的鐵路時速可以達到160公里 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8958.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8963.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
目前我們正在做相關的這些作業,包括台北到花蓮這一段,其實未來要靠這個台北到宜蘭的這個高鐵。 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8976.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8990.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
然後後面再去做花蓮到台東或者台東到屏東的這部分分別要靠其他的幾個鐵路改善計劃因為你東部的快鐵做好再加上我們的高鐵延伸到宜蘭延伸到屏東 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8992.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8996.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那這樣的一個交通大概就看到很明顯的改善了,是不是這樣子? |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8996.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9015.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
是。好,那我請問你,以目前啊,核定啊,我剛聽那個拱主委講,大概這兩個高鐵延伸線啊,南北大概都進入到中規的時候嘛,就中程的規劃報告了嘛。目前我們正在辦理綜合規劃跟環境影響評估。延伸到屏東要花多少錢?我看交通部報告大概620億啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9017.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9036.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
延伸到宜蘭要1880億這兩條延伸線 開花債2500億我們不反對交通改善但是其實我的重點在於不能隨便製造錢坑法案高鐵的財務有沒有自主還要靠政府補貼目前來講並沒有補貼高鐵的財務是自主 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9043.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9054.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
你這個新的南北延長線2500億要不要回收要不要收支平衡高鐵的財務是個負擔我都怕高鐵漲價了那你再蓋一個花東高鐵大概有兩個因素第一個我認為要優先考慮的是財政問題財政高鐵能不能負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9067.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9094.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
第2個,蓋那個需要很複雜的,第10調查要不要?第2個就是我講的財政嘛,環評嘛,還有甚至通過原民部落嘛。最後啊,10年,我看復均體力這個法案10年,10年可以完成嗎?我看這昧於事實嘛,這好可憐啊,10年,你綁一個10年怎麼可能會做得,做得十當做得開?而且他要土地徵收! |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9096.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9107.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
律政說這個是最困難的,縣市政府還要配合的,你做得開嗎?10年要拔地嗎?還有就是錢跟法案的問題,你剛剛講台鐵正在蓋東部快鐵,對不對?我給你看一下,你知道台鐵靠什麼活下去嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9118.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9131.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
臺鐵現在還能賺錢,它最賺錢的前幾個單位就在花蓮、玉里、台東、中探集。它的花蓮賺的錢,大花蓮賺的錢還比直轄市的六都裡面的高雄賺得多。 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9134.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9153.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
台鐵什麼時候開始啊?幾乎快倒閉啊。你知道嗎?以時間差距來看,台鐵的財政急速惡化。在2017年,高鐵125號通車啊,台鐵差不多在場就很壞了,很吃力了。因為競爭不了,贏不了高鐵嘛。那你現在再蓋下去的話,我看台鐵會不會倒閉啊?台鐵會不會倒閉啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9162.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9173.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
高鐵本身就財政的問題喔高鐵如果真的去蓋像傅崐萁提的10年就蓋一個東部高鐵再加上現在南北延伸線2500億蓋東部我也不知道要多少錢啊然後我跟你講那台鐵怎麼辦台鐵現在東部快鐵正在投資嘛是不是你剛才說的要等你去嘛啊去之後台鐵我剛才台鐵的到不來你有什麼普悠瑪啦太魯閣那不能修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9191.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9213.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
啊?兩位來看法是怎樣?台鐵啊,遇到高鐵就溫馨了嘛,要不然你就做一個,啊你現在東部快鐵也在外面通過啊,那個時候也是因為要改善東部交通啊,國民黨也沒反對啊,藍綠都同意啊,大家去騎那個東部快鐵,現在大家要騎,你現在又騎一個高鐵,那怎麼辦?財政可以負擔嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9220.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9248.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
阿你現在 什麼都搞不清楚就要編一個10年 孔主委你要幹嘛是 包委員所以我們為什麼講所有的交通建設就要循序漸進那我們現在高鐵的部分就是把延伸線這個部分到屏東跟宜蘭這個部分先做好然後同時間呢那個快鐵也在改善嘛阿如果說大家認為這樣的情況已經可以滿足一日生活圈了阿當然也有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9249.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9278.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
有更大的夢想,那就可以啟動可行性來評估看看。我認為財政要循序漸進。錢坑法案齁,這個一定害死台灣的啦。你不要以為高鐵現在經營得不錯捏。高鐵在2008年差點倒閉捏。你會怕嗎?高鐵如果沒有那次的採改啊,財政改善計劃,各地也倒啦。理工控辦公室高鐵也陷入很危險的狀況。現在高鐵在投資2500億,在宜蘭跟屏東延伸線。 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9279.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9297.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
現在再去什麼10年內再搞一個環島高鐵我擔心的是錢跟法案啊我甚至南北延伸線以後啊高鐵不漲價啊我看他的財政都受不了了我不曉得到時候傅崐萁會不會再提一個高鐵凍漲案那幾個月後再來大家都發送的都不用考慮財政的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9306.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9312.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
我們主席站起來謝謝主席我時間到了謝謝兩位謝謝接下來我們請何欣淳委員請做詢答謝謝主席楊朝偉我們是請國發會主委我們再請公主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9338.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9354.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
主委好,我的封面標挺就知道我關心還是民生經濟的問題,因為國發會應該也知道說,我上次也跟主委講,國發會是我們整個政府的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9356.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9356.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
財政局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9384.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9404.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
國際、世界各國幾乎都在漲,那也因為燃料漲,我們也不得不漲,不然台電可能沒有辦法負擔得了這麼巨大的虧損。但是呢,當我們能夠理解的時候,不得已來支持電價漲的時候,政府必須要思考什麼?對民生的衝擊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9406.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9406.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9414.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9435.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
能不能幫助我們一些受影響的產業或者是國人能夠把它的衝擊降到最低那我舉一個大家在最近在批評經濟部的有一些這個宣導的措施呢所謂的時間電價我也可以理解但是我個人認為沒有辦法解決各種的用電的樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9436.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9442.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那很多很多的生活樣態或是產業的樣態我覺得政府的政策配套應該都要再多加考量現實的生活樣態這是我認為我們政府該做到的那接下來我就說電價升息CPI漲民眾的生活影響真的加起來很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9457.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9465.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那我也必須肯定行政院在我上次提出來之後有針對所謂的升息提出政策性的一些補貼這個就是所謂的配套嘛針對比如說我們有針對什麼青年安家貸款的利息補貼我們對這個受產業衝擊影響景氣比較不好的中小企業的企業貸款我們有補貼對但是呢我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9485.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9485.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9501.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9526.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
發言委員,我想因為包括物價也好或是什麼,我們都有一個穩定物價小組,那每個月也都會開會。我知道啊,開會完之後行政院就排版定案,所以今天開始嘛,今天4月1號嘛。 是是是。所以我才會說,電價,我剛一開始都說我可以理解不得不漲的一個負擔、承擔,這是我們必須要去承擔,跟世界各國一樣還有那個國際燃料的價格大漲。 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9528.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9540.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那但是呢在不得不的情況之下我們政府還是要針對一些對民眾生活對一些弱勢產業影響很巨大的我們是不是有一些配套的措施可以降低衝擊這個才是我覺得有 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9543.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9543.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9563.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9567.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
在外他面對的是什麼三餐問題嘛所以早餐店漲那小吃飲食店也漲那對他來講一天家總起來你知道嗎他可能過去要花200塊現在要花300塊我這個是用中南部的價格還不是台北的價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9582.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9592.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
以年輕人的說法我以前是月底就要吃土了我可能現在不用到月底我可能提前一個禮拜可能就要面對吃土的狀況這個是我們現在年輕人的受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9597.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9613.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
這影響了什麼?年輕的上班族影響的是雙薪家庭有小孩的家庭那我不要講只有年輕人我們明年台灣要邁入超高齡社會每五個人就有一位高齡者你知道對高齡者的家庭又是如何影響嗎?通膨高物價 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9617.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9634.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這個資料不是我自己創造的,這個資料是媒體的一個專題報導,那都是有平均,因為包括都是足跡總署的一些家庭收支調查。最窮的後20%,就是五分之一的家庭裡面,有六成是老年家庭,半數的老人都是窮人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9635.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9640.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
國民年輕不夠,可能還有其他衝擊更大的。我會舉這些是說不是只有年輕人受影響,也不是只有青壯有孩子的家庭受影響,還有高年齡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9657.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9657.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9676.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9677.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
主委 您有看過這個嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9698.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9719.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
報告委員所以我們現在提供的協助是比較多元的協助那您剛才提到這個小商家的部分雖然電價有稍微上漲但是我們希望就是說大宗物資的部分進口的部分我們就關稅上就是延到六月份不要讓它漲瓦斯桶的部分我們也就是不要漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9720.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9720.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
《國安法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9738.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9738.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9757.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9758.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9778.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9780.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
主委,你可能沒有聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9803.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9804.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我們現在休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10327.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10352.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我們現在繼續開會我們請邱若驊委員出席謝謝主席,有請主委主委好,針對我們今天的環島高鐵 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10356.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10357.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
環島高速鐵路建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10359.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10386.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
交通部長、王部長2021年11月曾說過拋出環島高鐵不是夢的構想當時行政院院長、蘇院長也很鼓勵針對我們環島高鐵的構想部長當時認為因為宜蘭高鐵選址上面的問題特別提出環島高鐵的構想認為選址如果沒有後續延伸的可能性彈性會大打折扣無論是宜蘭站還是屏東站 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10389.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10392.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
環島高鐵應該用公共運輸的角度來看,特別是花東的路廊有限,是否應該思考對環島高鐵可以以公共運輸為優先的選項? |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10414.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10431.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
在過去我們在提到這個環島高鐵在這件事情之前我們認為這個高鐵推動應該要分段來逐步推動在這個逐步推動同時我們同時另外建立這個東部是快鐵的方向這快鐵的方向就是透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10432.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10435.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
市長您提到快鐵那目前高鐵和台鐵的整合要如何依據不同地區然後還有它的 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10458.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10478.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
的特性那給予成績與北中南東區之間的更快捷變數的運輸服務目前來講我們在高鐵的部分透過剛剛談到的宜蘭跟屏東的延伸之外然後我們原來是希望說在屏東接下來經過台東、花蓮、宜蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10483.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10508.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這部分我們花的主要的這個相關工程就是在做花東的這個主要鐵路的這個雙軌化雙軌化能夠讓鐵路的這個台鐵的運量能夠提升之外然後也藉由未來新引進的這個比較高的高速的車輛來說短這個時間目前是現在我們建立的方向是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10509.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10512.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
國發會在109年7月13日通過國家發展計畫110年到113年並經行政院在7月16日會議討論通過其中一項政策主軸是營造全零照顧的 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10528.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10548.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
幸福社會那重點有強化幼兒托育的服務還有解決青年低薪還有投資青年等等那請問主委解決青年低薪與投資青年的部分那至今臺灣青年低薪的現象還是沒有改善低薪的問題那有何檢討那如何跨部會的共同解決青年低薪的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10550.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10565.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
報告委員,雖然就是還沒有盡如人意,但是已經有階段性改善,現在大概大學畢業生的起薪也平均來講大概都超過3萬塊,當然大家還希望可以更好啦,那所以...因為您提到超過3萬塊,那至今物價通膨? |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10568.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10570.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
年輕人的能力上的提升還有學用 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10585.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10607.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
〈編寫〉 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10607.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10607.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10636.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10660.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
主委說明嗎?目前與跨部會的合作?對,剛剛提到的那些事實上就有跨部會的合作你提到的是企業的部分?企業班的部分主政單位是經濟部那人力工級的部分是學校的部分是教育部那還有一些訓練單位那我們國發會是有參與相關的一些協調整合的一些工作大概有這樣的一個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10661.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10689.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那這邊向主委提問那提出有關那個少子化的研究報告還有解決少子化的對策那近來劣童案讓各界的檢討聲浪不斷那去年8月立法院預算中心一份報告也有指出選舉前的因誘餌托育資源帶積極部件還有提升品質那現行的場地規劃很學者恐難難以貼合那育兒資源帶加強請問過去三年半 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10689.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10711.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
的執行還有檢討狀況?這個主政單位是衛福部但是我們都知道說對育兒跟養育的部分政府是經費是逐年在增加從過去2016年大概只有一兩百億現在已經超過一千多億了那所以說怎麼樣做法會更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10711.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10737.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那行政院下面也有一個少子化的推動的平台林政委在做這個就是召集那有任何如果需要做政策上的調整我想行政院也會尋這個平台再做一些確認那國發會當然也有參與這樣的平台的工作所以也有做一些相關性的一些研究那也把這些研究事實上提供給這個平台來做一些政策上依據的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10738.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10750.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
是,好,那我這邊是想要了解實質上面的改善,那可以再請主委提供書面資料嗎?好,可以是,謝謝。謝謝邱委員的質詢,現在要請陳昌明委員質詢,請。首先謝謝主席,那有請我們國務會公職委,還有我們交通部副長, |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10773.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10779.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
今天主要是討論我們環島高速鐵路特別建設特別條例的草案你們兩個是支持還是反對還是半贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10792.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10814.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
你怎麼看法?只要就是需要的交通建設基本上你覺得有沒有需要?你是國會要去做評估啊?是,沒有沒有,需不需要評估是交通部他必須把他的可行性研究出來然後送到行政院轉譯給我們來做審議所以假如這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10816.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10817.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
現在講的很曖昧,但是我看你的報告把困難的事情講在前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10831.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10853.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
但是我今天站在這邊我就想到很多的問題你們的老前輩、民進黨我們陳水扁、陳前總統講過有夢醉迷、希望香水、逐步踏實這個環島高速鐵路你要有這樣的理念跟概念你們要學習這種前瞻、這種氣魄還有我們最近 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10859.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10880.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我們的陳建源我們的院長他說把花東的建設做好是草野的共識這個是在今年的3月15號講的還有我們交通部的王部長他在好像2021年講過 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10883.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10899.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
環島高鐵不是夢,他說義孤全台要有20個站,這個是你們當時都所講的話出來。那今天我看到很多執政黨的委員裡面都談到困難的問題很多。 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10901.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10926.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那我記得我們經濟部王美化次長說做官的人要做什麼事情就是要解決困難的問題困難的事情跟困難的問題一般的事情的話就不需要我們官員來做我們要挑戰高難度所有幾個觀念先給你你們要有前瞻要有前瞻的觀念為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10927.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10956.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
像當年蔣經國時代十大建設的高速公路的開闢大家都說那個是給有錢人開的車子現在變成我們最重要一種交通道路的一個公路的一種這樣不單一條兩條還有我們西濱高加化以前說要高加化都講有困難現在發展需要都要西濱的高加化 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10957.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10967.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那高速鐵路在做的時候也很多人反對也經過很多困難就是執意的把它克服你的執政團隊你們現在民進黨執政你們的專長是在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10971.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10991.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
把不可能的事情變為可能,像NCC的中天你們把它關掉,在這世界民主自由議論裡面你們做到了,還有把國民黨單產條例你們也抽回去了,人多勢眾,沒有辦法,沒有你們什麼不可能做不到的事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10992.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11017.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
剛剛有幾個委員在談說環餅團體會反對以前的陸岸鋒利、離岸鋒利當初在推動的時候那個環餅團體真的厲害可以綁著鐵鏈、可以撥什麼尿糞都出來你們執政了以後沒有任何環保團體出來跟你們抗議所以你們厲害就在這個地方所以我今天要跟你們講環島的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11022.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11039.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
高速鐵路勢必要做那我說民進黨的專堂把不可能變為可能的在哪裡你看選舉一到我們的高速鐵路可以通到宜蘭我們的高速鐵路可以通到屏東現在只有花蓮台東 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11041.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11050.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
只有這一段而已你們試著要突破今天所有報告都是講困難的問題臺灣人我們的執政臺灣的韌性最強臺灣人的頭腦最好我們一定有辦法克服 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11057.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11070.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
我現在問你們的態度不要因為在野黨提出來你覺得公道會被在野黨拿走都講反對啦困難啦這不是做官的態度啦其實要經過比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11072.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11094.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
中國大陸很多大的建設我們去看我們都嚇了一跳我們只要這一條環島高速鐵路我希望我們執政黨要縮短城鄉差勤這一條高速鐵路要做當然要如何跟台鐵配合起來是非常重要你可以表達你們的觀點我講這些都是在我們發生的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11098.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11116.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
你怎麼樣?是,包委員,我想我們的想法是這樣就是說重大建設的部分如果有需要我們基本上是支持那但是就是它要循序有既有的一些機制來做一些辦理那過去所有重大建設到後來雖然有遭一些困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11116.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11144.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
但也陸續都解決了也在營運當中包括西部高鐵是一樣所以我們認為如果東部高鐵有需要的話那就開始比如說請交通部啟動可行的研究那我們來看可能會遇到什麼樣的困難那才有辦法去面對它去處理它我希望你們不要講毀線亂正所以這個條例我也希望你們不要反對我們先把條例通過讓我們有夢 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11145.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11147.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
謝謝接下來我們請賴世邦委員請做詢談 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11174.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11178.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
謝謝主席有請國發會的公主委我們請公主委大委好你好我的問題很簡單就是一個問題不是今天要討論的喔我記得有關於主權基金這個到最後是國發會來統合各單位要做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11202.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11206.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
評估做一個報告出來對吧?你們來統合的嘛對不對?對不對?指示嘛結果出來沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11211.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11237.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我們開過了兩次會有沒有結論?結論就是說現在當然還會持續在開當中還在開?對對對對所以還沒定案?是還沒那我就問你一個簡單的問題喔兩個簡單問題第一個如果要主權基金是專法還是像有些委員直接從央行修改銀行法修改那個央行法中央銀行法 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11238.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11263.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
一個立專法、一個銀行法,切百分之十出來,哪一個?我們初步的討論,這還沒有定案。感覺上就是說專法是比較合適。專法比較好,第二個問題,很簡單的問題,第二個問題。但是還沒有定案,對。要,可以不可以允許這個族群基金無償的使用外匯存體,可不可以? |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11264.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11285.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這個當然就有一些爭議啦 因為央行他不贊成啦你贊成嗎?但是如果說 我講如果啦 如果說即便有償也OK啦 有償當然OK啦有償當然OK 因為全世界講什麼主權基金啦 你翻一翻你認真去讀一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11287.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11304.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
主權基金代表國家,央行的外匯存底是老百姓的錢,資產負債是利益的。今天比如說,長傘,它出口了賺了100萬美金進來,100萬美金放央行,但是100萬美金乘以31或者乘以30,3000多萬要給這個廠商了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11306.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11328.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
都很清楚啦,這個錢不是央行的錢,這不是國家的錢,真的是國家的錢,那個才是主權基金。他們很喜歡講什麼丹麥希拉、新加坡的GIC等等的,包括中東的阿拉伯國家、石油國家,都是這樣子在操作的,基本上就是政府拿錢出來, |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11330.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11352.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
需要多少美金他去向有美金的持有者去買所以換一句話說我個人是支持這個論點的我支持央行的論點就是你要用央行的外外存體可以要有償不是無償不是無償你可以跟他買跟他調但是不是無償 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11354.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11373.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
所以兩個第一個要立專法第二個不可以無償動用外匯對吧這個結論可以這樣講嗎暫時的結論第一個專法的部分這個是大家比較有這樣那另外是有償無償這個就還在討論當中當然要有他的一些說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11376.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11395.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
對,所以那個部分還沒有形成完整的共識這個還沒有定案,但是專法是定案的大家比較有共識的部分,還沒有定案我在,什麼時候可以定案嘛,最後,什麼時候可以定案,因為你是主持的因為這個還要形成一個共識啦過兩天等一下你去當經濟部長那邊議啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11398.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11417.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
沒有還會持續啊,政策是延續的,不會因此人事的更替不會影響所以你就當經濟部長不差啦沒有啦,沒有要當的不差,好,我就是跟你請教這個問題最後什麼時候可以定案因為現在財委會要去修這個法,要修養育法要做這個事,你們要趕快出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11427.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11427.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
接下來我們請 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11455.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11456.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
陳樹越委員請作詢答陳樹越議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11481.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11482.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
交通建設基本上是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11505.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11520.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
《環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案》案中第4條明訂說本條例之主管機關為國發會,所以如果說這個草案通過了,那很明顯的就是破壞了這個體制,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11521.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11538.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
對,既有的啦,就是既有的機制就不是既有的機制不是既有的機制,那我們知道說其實重大的交通建設都有一定的一個流程就是由這個主管的這個業務單位來提出可行性評估然後還要這個先期規劃這個環保的一個環境影響評估等等最後才會送到我們國發會來做審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11547.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11553.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
所以如果由國發會來主導這個環島高速鐵路等於就是求員兼裁判嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11553.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11568.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
是不是?是 因為那個在部會分工裡面交通部的鐵路法是有明定的就是交通事業基本上是他們來做主政然後他們提出相關的這些可行跟綜合規劃送到行政院 行政院交易給國發會來共同審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11570.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11571.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
環島高速鐵路 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11593.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11611.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
當年高鐵剛剛通車的時候,我記得那時候很多藍營的政治人物都在批評說高鐵是廢鐵,不安全。可是經過這十幾年來的營運,我們也證明說高鐵是快速便利又安全的交通工具。 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11612.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11619.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
所以今天這個國民黨提出了這個環島高速鐵路的這樣子的一個條例等於是證明了他們也承認這個高鐵不僅不是廢鐵而且還要擴大到全島環島當然我們也很高興看到國民黨今天的覺醒那對於這樣子的一個國家的一個重大的交通建設我們也希望就是說我們要回歸到專業的一個評估跟理性的一個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11641.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11670.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那我們來看到他條文裡面他這個第5條裡面他說整個全部計畫的建設完成以不遇時扭為限其實我覺得這樣子的一個內容我覺得也是有點在就是違反這樣子的建設的一個流程也有點強人所難因為以我們看到整個西部鐵路高鐵的一個建設的一個騎乘這個都是有經驗可循的 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11670.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11670.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11696.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11715.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
推動,國發會這邊的立場是不是可以再請主委再說一下?是,我想就是說,我們還是如果按照程序來的話,如果有需要的部分還是要請交通部啟動這個可行性的這個研究分析。那這個研究分析當然他就會討論這個路廊到底要怎麼走。 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11716.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11744.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
戰要設在哪裡然後要經過哪些地方可能會遭遇到什麼樣的困難技術上的部分然後財務怎麼樣做一些規劃這個部分我們都需要去認真的看待那越認真去看待來講的話真正後面施工才會順利如果這些東西都沒有先去了解跟討論的話那馬上就要決定跳過這個程序的話可能會遇到想不到的一些阻礙更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11745.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11767.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
所以我們還是認為就是說過去的經驗已經在那邊而且即便是西部高鐵或是其他的重大建設按照這樣的程序也都所有挑戰也一一突破了雖然時間拉長但是我們還是把它完成現在營運也非常非常順利所以我們還是希望說這套機制已經存在而且是可以信任的機制我們希望循這個機制來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11770.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11796.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
是,那我剛有提到就是說當年在這個高鐵剛剛通車的時候國民黨批評說高鐵是廢鐵那這樣回想起來我們也可以看得出來他們就是基於一種意識形態的立場來批評這個部分我們從最近這兩年我們還可以看到一個例子就是這個高鐵延伸到屏東的這樣子的一個可行性的計畫的一個合併 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11798.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11817.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
國民黨也是跳出來批評說這個延伸到屏東是畫大餅那今天他們提出來更大的一個交通建設的一個餅當然這個都是我們共同要追求的一個願景我們也是支持啦可是我們是希望就是說國民黨不要就是說換了位子就換了腦袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11818.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11818.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11837.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11837.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11865.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11865.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11897.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11904.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
主委,這個高鐵全線,所謂環島高鐵,這是你所管的嗎?這個環島高鐵,這是你的業務,是你的預算嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11918.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11929.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這些重大建設,國發會是審議機關,就是交通部他們把這個可行性計畫規劃出來以後呢,會送到行政院,行政院會交易給我們,那我們來做審議。除了這個之外,應該是說,這個特別條例好像都是你們在管的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11947.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11973.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
沒有,如果是單一是這樣,如果是統合性的,那個是我們來管,因為那是跨很多很多的部會,所以找單一部會比較不合適,所以就是統合性的是我們,但是單一的部份,像這樣交通業務的部份,它非常單一,那這個是本來就是交通部主政,所以我們覺得回歸到交通部是比較…你覺得這應該回歸到,因為這是單一嘛,就交通建設嘛,所以你現在有管的特別條例是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11974.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11997.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
前瞻基礎建設還有花東特別條例還有離島建設條例就花東跟離島還有前瞻基礎建設現在這樣說起來離島有離島建設花東有花東建設過去有很多立委包括雲林跟嘉義的立委都有共同倡議過我們應該有一個雲嘉嘉 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12001.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12027.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
針對所謂農業、倉庫、雲家家的特別條例,阿姨孫子都沒辦法啊?這怎麼會覺得沒什麼說法?事實上,區域的發展齁,我們現在大部分都是用方案來做推動,那也可以做具體的推動齁,比如說大南方有一個方案,然後這個桃園 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12029.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12035.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
就是桃、竹、苗有一個大企股。 有一些啦,我知道像什麼黃金郎道嘛,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12035.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12055.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
是是是,那這個都有。 它針對基層下限區。對,這個都有方案。 對,我講這個不是要刁難啦。 是是是。 意思是說,本來我們國家針對所謂比較特殊的一些區域,為了它的平衡發展,那我們就會有這樣的規劃。 是。 所以包括有離島,包括有化動特別條例。 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12056.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12082.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那這些離島跟化農特別條例也都有特別預算在做支應所以我跟他說事實上我們國家應該是很均衡的照顧所有的地方嘛 對不對所以這個應該是一個方向可是我今天要跟主委講因為國土計劃法國土計劃法有可能要上路了那國土計劃法有一件事情很不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12083.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12100.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
極度的不公平因為就講到這種區域發展的失衡國土計畫法的不公平就在於說我們國土計畫法把很多地方列為所謂農一、列為農二然後在很多山坡地或者是海口這個河流的出海口列為保護區 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12103.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12125.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那你把這些列為保護區,等於它這個地方的土地的利用是受到限制的那如果相對於城鄉、城市裡面,幾乎沒有農一或農二保護區也很少那整個差不多都承擔這樣的一些責任農一農二這樣的一個責任那我承擔的這部分,是不是應該要從統籌分配管 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12133.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12155.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
國家要統籌分配的時候我竟然承擔的農一農二我竟然承擔的有這樣的保護區那我這樣佔的一個比例以全國來算我有佔的這樣的比喻我為了國家的糧食安全我為了國家的這個用水的保護我竟然承擔的這樣責任國家並沒有說這樣我統籌分配要給這裡的縣市就多少這個事情沒有說白 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12162.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12171.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
所以我覺得主委因為國發會嘛幾乎是只要涉及到跨部會審議的部分你們都會參與所以我覺得我這樣的一個建議主委你支持嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12173.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12193.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
因為統籌分配款是財政部主政他有一套他的公式他的公式事實上都是來自財政收支法劃分法財政收支法我現在指的是統籌分配不是只補助那一塊如果是補助了可能財政部自己內部去做評估那統籌分配款都法律定的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12196.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12219.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那我是意思就是說我們應該要提出修法,不然你這個國土計劃法一旦上路了,對於像雲林啦,像嘉義啦,甚至像花蓮啦,台東啦,沒說白嘛,那些都保護區啊,他這個國家守護了這麼多的土地,被綁死的,不能開發的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12220.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12224.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
對於農一農二的這個我們也知道農業部他有編列的很多相關預算來支持這個農業縣市那統籌分配那個可不可以做我不敢保證但是農業部可以來強化對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12249.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12275.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
農業縣市的支持我想農業部本來也一直在這樣做對 這個我相信啦我相信農業部當然會站在支持農業但是我們沒有一個對於說因應國土計劃法那我們對於所謂他在這個縣市裡面他承擔了這樣的責任不然你現在叫各縣市去提報我這個縣市要有多少的農藝要有多少的農業我縣市多少是屬於保護區那誰會出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12278.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12299.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
一旦提出來等於宣告這裡土地的人他未來他的土地的利用是被綁死的所以你要相對讓縣市說如果我這個縣市我承擔了更多的農一農二我承擔了更多的保護區我可以得到更多的統籌分配至少我對這個地方的發展是相對性的是可以帶動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12301.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12319.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
這樣才叫做國土計畫法,才是叫做完整的嘛,否則就是強者恆強,弱者恆弱。例如說六都他們大概他們的都市範圍比較多,六都裡面還有那個也是有城鄉差別,更不用說非六都。 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12320.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12345.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
那以後就是大家都在搶我的我內地的建地越多我越發電啊那建地越少他就白死了他就沒作用了所以我覺得這件事情很不公平所以國土計劃法要上路前一定要先把所謂的財政收支的一個分配也要先公平性要先把它定出來才會有公平的這個土地的一個利用好不好主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12347.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12347.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
陳婷菲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12383.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12410.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
主席主席我們請主委我們再請公主委主委你好主委我們從這個上個禮拜的交通委員會到這個禮拜的經濟委員會其實我覺得我們在討論這個議題很容易被大家誤解說好像民進黨政府沒有在重視我們花東的交通但其實不然 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12412.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12437.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
因為你們都要去做統整嘛國家型計畫都要你們做一個統籌的部分跨部會去協調嘛那如果依照你所了解的我們就講交通部啦其他部會都不要講就交通部其實說真的從鐵路、公路我們不論是用專案或是補助型的我們是給了很多但是我相信華東 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12439.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12451.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
永遠建設沒有一天是可以終止的怎麼說都沒搞啦但是我們希望大家一起努力可是不能被誤導說我們都沒在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12453.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12478.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
而且今天其實我們說的我們該做的可行性評估該做的相關的規劃其實只要地方有提出我們也願意配合也一直在做對不對是那如果是這樣子的話我想請問一下那現在我們目前針對這個高速鐵路的部分可行性呢可行性評估呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12481.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12496.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
高速鐵路現在來講的話現在是北延到宜蘭然後南延到屏東這兩段的可行性已經過了現在在做綜合規劃現在就是說依照更擴大如果說往 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12497.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12523.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
東部去找東部因為原先的規劃是東部是快鐵所以快鐵現在提升它的這個速度現在在進行當中所以快鐵已經有可行性了嗎在進行可行性評估了嗎而且甚至於在進行施作當中對啊 就可以施作然後有一部分是在可行性然後再進入到那些比較敏感地帶有可能進入環評嘛就是說在整個比較完整性的都在進行當中嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12524.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12524.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12549.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12571.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
發言委員,所以我們還是認為就是說,如果要啟動這個高鐵,這個花東高鐵的話,可能還是要啟動這個可行性評估,按照既有的程序來是比較強。就像快鐵一樣嘛,對不對?就像快鐵嘛,今天一個大型的建設,一個大型的公共計畫,甚至是交通計畫,它不可能是好像用飛的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12572.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12594.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
因為它有太多所涉及的一些所謂土地問題還有我們的技術問題還有我們要突破的問題溝通的問題很多環境影響評估對 所以這個部分不是不做而是我們怎麼把它到位然後讓人民有感甚至交通建設說真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12596.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12614.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那今天如果固定下去做是要呼呼叫捏一直走下去捏不是說做到哪、停到哪這樣不是交通建設這樣只是會讓地方看得到、吃不得對不對就好像是一個假的東西說有有有我幫你爭取了你看這個計畫這麼大可是你沒有安撫就搬來你用跳的 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12622.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12649.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
用跳的就可以跳上去嗎?萬一這個基底都沒有做好基礎都沒有打好會跌下來耶今天花東地區的民眾沒有辦法如果說今天大家所看到的是一個不負責任政府真的啊 大家來畫畫就好了是不是我們要做一個負責任的政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12650.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12680.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以既然有提到我們從開始嘛任何我們都接受每個地方所提出的公共建設計畫有需要我們就去評估有需要我們就去做我們沒有因為什麼顏色不可能我常在講我們的前瞻說真的國民黨的縣市首長可能拿的都還比民進黨政府還多如果以比例來看喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12681.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12708.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
所以我們不分藍綠因為這是地方需要不分藍綠這是民眾需要只要地方需要民眾需要我們政府就要去協助一樣如果這個所謂的高速鐵路的部分真的需要不用用什麼特別條例啊該做就去做否則如果每一個地方都要一個特別條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12710.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12735.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
那我們臺南也要一個特別條例啊對不對尤其你看我們的水庫預期成這樣我們也跟他說啊清淤特別條例可以嗎?也可以啊因為它影響的是所有民生的用水經濟的用水這大不大?是南部地方耶整個經濟脈絡經濟的發展耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12737.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12765.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那我們是不是可以也設一個所謂清淤整個水庫而且所有水庫幾乎到我們臺南大型水庫直接供應經濟能量的都在我們臺南所以我們就成立一個所謂水庫清淤特別條例再編一個水庫清淤特別預算每一個地方都一個特別條例特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12768.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12791.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
主委你覺得呢?所以我們還是說現在重大的公共工程都有既有的機制在進行我們認為循現在的機制來辦是比較恰當的因為既有的機制我們剛才提到的可行性評估就是要把準備工作做好準備工作做得更扎實的話後面施工就可以比較順利而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12793.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12794.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12814.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12814.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
我們對不起花東的人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12845.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12868.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
謝謝 謝謝接下來我們請邱志偉委員請做詢答來 謝謝主席 有請國會公主委我們再請公主委 謝謝邱委員好這個主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12869.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12888.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
國安會的角色應該是屬於協調、整合、規劃,不是一個執行,對不對?對,審議,主要是審議機關。對國家重大的經濟或者是交通或者相關的這個重大政策裡面做相關的評估嘛。是。所以你們是一個審查者、把關者的角色嘛。是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12890.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12916.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
國家政府存在的目的是說 要改善解決這個國家的問題另外一個 增加國家的各項硬體的建設 對不對因為國家一定有很多問題嘛 少子化問題有沒有嚴重有沒有嚴重我是不是要針對少子化對策 解決少子化特別條例 那麼還有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12918.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12946.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
青年低薪是不是一個問題青年低薪啊薪資沒有辦法調漲物價一直調漲那薪資沒有辦法增加那我可不可以針對青年低薪問題解決青年問題特別條例這樣的特別條例才有意義嘛你通過這個特別條例解決國家當前面對的重大問題稍微的問題跟青年低薪的問題那建設不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12948.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12974.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
這個全國的高鐵的入網每一個所有國人都會贊成但是你的路徑、你的方法應該循規正矩而不是用特別條例的方式用一個協調幕僚的角色的國安會來擔任主政機關如此大的工程國安會目前編制多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12976.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12997.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
我們國土支部現在總共40幾個人,但是交通… 40幾個人你要去規劃環島高速鐵路國民黨也曾經完全執政過耶有政府會做事,是現在民進黨政府有些政府不見得會做事耶2008到2016馬英九當總統的時候國會也是這個全面…這個是多數黨,是全面執政 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13005.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13034.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
為什麼當時國民黨在那麼好的機會八年為什麼不提這個法案你去問一下陳創你去問一下毛治國你去問一下張善政你去問一下那個劉兆璇吳東毅江一樺這些行政院長為什麼到時候不提行政院也可以提啊那時候立法院也是國民黨全民執政啊也是國民黨多數為什麼不提 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13036.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13064.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
提了就有問題嘛破壞這個行政立法這個權力分立的一個一個角色也破壞了行政部門在推動這個政策推動各項建設的所有的順序所有的邏輯所有的法律全部都黑翻了如果可以做的話當時為什麼國民黨執政馬英九總統以至於所有的行政院長所有的交通部長為什麼不做 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13066.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13092.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
沒有辦法做嘛,是破壞法治這個夢、這個理想,所有的從政人員都希望能夠盡快去達成但是,達成要用正確的方式圖法不可行事情要成功,勢在人為要有一個會做事的政府來推動我舉一個例子高雄捷運光是一個路逐延伸線我都認為是2012年 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13094.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13121.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
到20一直到這個在馬英九執政的時候這個延伸線完全沒有任何的進展一個路逐延伸線我努力了10年一個延伸線而已喔好是不是高中市政府檢驗局要報到交通部交通部不審核之後還要報國安會國安會之後還要再相關補進程序還有很多環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13123.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13151.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
一個路途延伸線還好2016蔡英文總統當選才加快進度現在已經今年年終就要通車到岡山站再過5年之後就通車到我這個湖內以後再延伸到台南高鐵台南的這個捷運站不只這樣子也有捷運黃線目前歸入捷運紫線短短不到8年時間做多少事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13152.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13165.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
這就是有政府會做事但有些政府是不會做事那現在突然這個條例出來破壞所有法律的這個這個施政的邏輯跟秩序當然我們希望這個鐵路建設能夠環島這個結論這個方向是全民的做共識但是如果用這個方法請教主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13181.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13185.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
為什麼國民黨那英九總統當八年這個2008、2016國民黨全面執政國會多數為什麼不敢退 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13192.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13218.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
請教主委幫我委員,所有的重大建設或者是交通事業它都是循序漸進那高鐵的部分先有西部高鐵以後然後你再討論到延伸到宜蘭到屏東才有可能再考量到東部高鐵的部分它是一個階段循序政府有法律不可能人民政府都要依法來施政 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13220.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13243.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
所以我今天問這個問題是說很多事情你用錯方法反而會製造更多的問題我說的有國安問題的少子化青年低薪的問題我覺得可以用這個特別條例跨部會來做整合來推動來解決這個問題但建設比較循序漸進有它的邏輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13245.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13273.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
就算我諮詢,諮詢到了我就應該要下來,因為我要遵守立法委員自願行事法,對不對?諮詢到了我就看到李昆澤在那邊等,我就不能繼續講下去,因為我是一個守法的國務委員。政府所有的作為都應該要做人民的表率,要守法,不能知法犯法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13281.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13304.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
李昆哲說沒有謝謝接下來我們請李昆哲委員請做巡檔謝謝主席請一下龔主委我們再請龔主委還有請交通部胡祥林次長來我們次長李委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13305.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13325.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
國會議員對於地方重大的交通建設之爭取是天經地義的事情那我們對於各地交通能夠順暢的發展這也是我們樂見其成當然在爭取相關的交通建設或推動相關的法令對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13326.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13350.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
權力分立的憲政的基本原則我想每個委員應該都清楚第二就是對於相關爭取的程序我們不但是要有嚴謹的可行性評估還要經過環境影響評估環差的評估更重要還要有財務的相關的一個評估那在爭取相關的建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13351.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13379.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
我對於這次環島的這個高鐵的條例對於國安會的角色啊大挪移啊我實在嚇了一跳我們在過去爭取相關的建設要經過可行性評估通過之後送到交通部去做審議交通部審議過了通過再送到國安會它是一個審議的機關不是這樣嗎 廣州委說明一下是怎麼現在變成主管機關了 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13381.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13405.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
所以我們還是認為說循…聽說這遭遇亞馬遜,你們角色變化實在很快呢?對,所以我們還是覺得因為我們的專長過去來經驗上重大建設都是一個審議和協調的過程…你們變成交通建設的主管機關呢?這個在相關的政治制度方面啊,真的讓我們衝擊非常的大。另外啊, |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13406.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13422.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
在這第5條,他說10年內計畫到施工要完成,是不是?來說明一下相關的草案。對,目前的草案是這樣。好,胡襄寧市長,我們兩個都在交通很久了。是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13424.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13445.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
台鐵的台北鐵路地下化1983年施工到2011年才初步的完工他從台北車站專案然後松山專案然後萬坂專案萬華道板橋最後是南港專案也經歷了將近30年才完成高雄的鐵路地下化 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13446.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13475.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
才15公里台北的鐵路地下化23公里左右高雄的鐵路地下化也是從高雄計畫、左營計畫還有鳳山計畫它也是從2000年開始動工到2018年才第一階段完成整個鐵路地下化完成新的火車站完成也要到2025年也要將近25年我們現在政府真的是要變得非常厲害 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13477.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13498.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
先不管憲政原則我們的評估的程序整個都不用了嗎都不用嚴謹的去針對當地的生態當地的發展有造成什麼衝擊去做評估要怎麼去規劃財務都不用了嗎然後相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13500.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13522.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
台鐵、台北鐵路地下化做了將近30年高雄的鐵路地下化也要做到25年環島高鐵你10年內要完成這個都違反我的常識另外國道7號就好了國道7號的環境影響評估做了10幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13525.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13528.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
各位,我們都要很嚴謹來面對相關的這些議題來請胡次長說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13534.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13557.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
是,在我們所有過去的交通建設,不論鐵路、公路,大概都會經過可行性研究對,我們先不管憲政的權力分立為原則,我們也不去考慮相關的這些主管機關應該是誰我們也不要去管相關的這些可行性評估、環境影響評估、環差評估還有財務評估,先都不要去討論10年內可以完成環島高鐵到花東嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13559.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13581.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我認為這10年之內是相對這個估算是比較樂觀而且是可能跟我們實際上作業是會有我們都希望環島的高鐵能夠順利的完成當然我們對於鐵路的規劃在過去的觀念就是長途就是高鐵中長程就是台鐵 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13583.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13607.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
那短程都會區就是捷運還有輕軌相關的這些軌道系統能夠來完成的這樣的一個建立那現在我們面臨的這樣的一個問題就是說我們如何讓社會大眾清楚說這個應該有的程序是要怎樣還有我們會經歷的這樣的一個困難是什麼施工的過程是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13609.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13633.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
我們一起來向社會展現說我們支持花東,我們也支持相關的交通建設但是我們會面臨的問題是什麼?我們經歷的過程是什麼?廣州委現在國安會主委又要兼任交通部長,真的是恭喜你啊!很不簡單喔!你又可以審議,又可以變成主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13636.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13653.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那國安委對於相關的審議過程,那過去我們建立的你要可行性評估,然後交通部審議過再送國安委現在都不用交通部啦,就直接跳過去了,你們就自己審議就好啦這樣符合行政程序嗎?符合嚴謹的評估程序嗎?來簡單說明一下,最後時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13655.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13683.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
是 所以我們還說因為部會的分工本來他就有一個原則主管機關他是當然他是希望把這個完成但是他在因為他是主管機關嘛所以他他的規劃或等等要經過第2個單位來做審議用外部來檢視他那這個檢視我們會提供意見來協處那希望這個案子可以順利的往前走所以各有分工請大家都要嚴肅的思考 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13684.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13685.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
好 謝謝接下來我們請油耗委員請做詢談好 我們再請兩位 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13711.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13712.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13727.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13742.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
那是經過非常長期的討論那也包括像今天的我們重要的一個環島高速鐵路的一個建制那相信這個也是要經過很多的討論沒有錯但是本席在今天在事要法制委員會的時候的一個感受 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13742.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13757.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
就是該做的該可以努力的我們要會成功找方法但是我們看到許多一些拖延阿或許多用卡關的方式來去阻止改革來去阻止建設讓本席也是相當的一個痛心阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13758.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13786.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
所以說其實在今天來講我相信環島高鐵的這個草案那其實也是在一個不僅是拋磚引玉也甚至希望能夠積極建設所以我相信不管是主委或者是包括次長也都希望我們國家都能夠有重大建設而且甚至能讓民眾有感這樣子沒錯吧是 所以我們也支持就是交通部開始啟動相關的這個可行的一些規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13787.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13806.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那所以說其實也是正向認同跟支持這個環島鐵路環島高鐵沒有錯吧環島高鐵意思是交通部的一個施政願景我們是往這方向在推動但是關鍵是我們要把所有相關的程序跟應該考量的事情要把它建立起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13807.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13832.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
這個我相信絕對沒有錯但是其實像今天看到內政部的話其實就是一頁的報告我跟你講說今天可能4月1號愚人節但是沒有關係我在想說其實如果可以的話應該是要有更多充分的討論那才是鼓勵內政部未來來講能夠有更多的一個包括參與跟對於這個業務跟這個建設的一個表態那我想直接問一下國防會主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13832.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13855.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
對於過去來講,蔣經國時期的十大建設,您怎麼評語?簡單講就好。十大建設有當時的這個時代背景,因為那時候也剛好是國際上有石油危機嘛,造成經濟上的衝擊。所以十大建設不僅是對於基礎建設有很大的幫助,對經濟的發展也有奠基的相當的基礎。 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13856.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13877.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
沒錯,那馬來西亞就不再請你再列舉十大建設,因為大家都其實都背誦得很清楚那我想問一下在目前來講有沒有什麼認為是可以讓交通部或是國發會在大家在近年來可以特別提出的就像那時候十大建設一樣可以讓我們民心振奮的重大建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13879.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13907.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
發言委員事實上每個國家的重要建設我們都按照這個程序來做一些辦理比如說以現在大家關心的這個花東的這些交通建設的部分過近近幾年來交通部就投入了大概3000億的預算來支持它除了這個公路上的這些花就是台九縣的這些不管是景觀也好或是安全性也好的提升甚至於台鐵的這個雙軌化 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13909.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13937.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
讓他速度可以加快其實我大致上還是在回應好了我絕對也是肯定我們中央許多單位大家努力於希望我們的國家發展更好所以我不會去否定或是否認過去所做的但是從剛才的一個回應那本席是認為沒有辦法直接列舉出哪幾項還可以拿來覺得說在近幾年來可以作為一個重大發展及重大交通建設的一個突破 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13938.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13954.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那當然說 剛才許多的委員也有提到就是說 是不是用特別條例的部分其實在嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困症性特別條例也同樣賦予一些重大政策或重大措施法源 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13954.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13983.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
所以我是在講說,像今天的這個特別條例啊,而且過去在民進黨曾經黨團也提出過花東建設條例在馬英九執政時期,其實也是位於讓一些特殊的一個情況賦予他法源給他基金給他有機會能夠發展,所以同樣的在重大的一個建設那此案也一樣的一個拋磚引玉,能夠為未來國家長治久安長遠發展,能夠有些亮點措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13984.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14010.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
那本席同樣的是在這裡在做建議不管是花東的快速道路不管是環島高速鐵路甚至國道6號東延南投到花蓮其實這三點其實國民黨團提出的這三個建設相信其實會未來我們的整個國家發展帶來更大的便利性領略來講唯一跟南投有關的只有國道6號東延到花蓮但是如果說未來的總體的重大經濟、重大建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14011.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14012.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
中大建設案 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14028.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14039.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
發言委員我們對於環島高鐵並沒有說表達說反對的意思只是說程序上現在已經有既有機制了那循這個既有機制來講它過去來講這套機制是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14042.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14069.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
2000年之前就已經存在了是歷任大家都按照這個機制來做那重要的建設也慢慢都已經建設完畢因為時間剩下有限最後10秒本席還是建議不管是先往屏東這一段以及先到宜蘭那一段我希望交通部跟國發會能夠積極的來去推動而且在於草野的立委來講也能夠積極溝通讓未來這種重大建設能夠來逐步完成好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14071.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14101.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
好 謝謝來 敬禮敬禮敬禮來敬禮敬禮 謝謝接下來我們請廖宣祥委員請做詢答好 謝謝趙委麻煩邀請我們公主委那請公主委胡次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14108.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14125.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
今天環島高速鐵路的部分我想先請教一下因為目前環島高速鐵路目前已經有在往宜蘭方面做一些評估現在正在環境相關的評估那我想確認一下因為當初在召開相關的討論的時候新北市的地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14125.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14146.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
有提出是不是有可能在平溪來涉戰的可行性我不曉得在地方政府提出這個建議之後我們有沒有做相關的回應或是做相關的評估這樣子這個原來在評估的時候確實在地方政府有提出來這個想法不過當時我們在考慮上還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14148.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14171.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
就是說從它的現行等等這個事情考慮當初我們還沒有給一個回應說那邊要再涉戰所以目前還沒有一個明確的方向是那大概到哪個階段可以討論這件事情應該在現在的綜合規劃目前來講應該到114年我想這個方向應該會在今年或是明年的時間來去做評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14173.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14201.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
好 就是在做綜合規劃報告的時候那我們就會來討論這個平溪地區要不要有沒有辦法來做共戰那當然大家可能會認為說平溪這麼小的一個地方有沒有辦法來負荷這個高鐵的運量那我想先請教一下當然我們還是要我們在質詢的時候還是要先有一些背景這個知識的一些瞭解想先確認一下在評估高鐵涉不涉戰在運量上面會有哪一些基本的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14204.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14232.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
沒有基本上的要求但是我相信這個量要能夠起來除了有在地附近的這個服務的人口之外所以人口絕對不夠一定是觀光客嘛對還有一些產業的發展包括觀光產業的發展那這一部分當然要設帳我覺得根本上的問題會在於說我們今天要找到適合設帳的地點跟它的線型能夠搭配起來這才是關鍵那接下來才是運量的問題所以目前線型經過新北市的部分都已經確認了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14233.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14255.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
還沒有,所以也是在綜合公報報告的時候才會確認現行,然後之後才來評估有沒有辦法設置這個評級站。那我們會,如果說往宜蘭走的話,未來我們的起企啦,譬如說,假設我不確定,應該延伸,如果說以屏東跟宜蘭來講的話,屏東應該會先嘛,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14259.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14266.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
平東也還沒確定嘛那假設之後這個兩邊都定案了那將來的起氣站會是宜蘭跟平東嗎還是說還是會像現在的南港到左營這樣子將來會是從平東我們現在在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14288.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14306.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
延伸屏東跟延伸宜蘭的中規跟環評在我們做中規環評的時候都會把未來延伸的這個可行性都把它放進去了所以將來延伸到這個宜花東是從宜蘭現有的這個車站往花蓮台東去接到屏東 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14306.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14322.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
現在有很多種不同的班次,包括站站停、台北、台中、然後直接到左營,所以未來假設延伸到宜蘭跟屏東的時候,那會有部分的班次從宜蘭發車,部分的班次從南港發車,會是這樣嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14326.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14344.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我覺得這樣推測是合理的不過實際上停靠的班車還是要靠要看將來的營運單位跟營運學者來決定目前全數都是從南港發車那未來就算延伸到宜蘭的話也不一定都是全部從宜蘭發車而是是你們的運量來調整要從宜蘭還是南港發車是不一定 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14347.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14370.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
我還是回到運量的部分這個平溪店是否要設站當然最重要的就是觀光客的人數能不能支撐高鐵站我想先確認一下我們現在因為地方政府在爭取的時候他可能也是需要一些論述才能夠來爭取我想確認一下現在高鐵站哪一個站的運量 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14371.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14371.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14387.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14405.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
目前幾個車站運量最低的是彰化車站那一天的量大概是4000一天4000所以說假設如果說地方政府想要爭取平息要在那邊設站的話那地方政府的評估會最起碼這邊的運量一天要有4000以上嗎?是這樣嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14408.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14423.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我們不適合拿彰化站來作比我們希望每一個站都能像台北站一樣但是我覺得它的月亮的高低會影響到未來的涉不涉站以及涉站之後的停靠的班次有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14423.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14444.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
當然當然當然一定是越少站的越少人的部分越少停當然假設假設真的有機會在平溪社站我們也不可能要求每班都停嘛對不對就像你們未來不可能每班都開到宜蘭嘛這是最基本的我們知道一定是效率的問題啦那只是說地方政府在爭取的時候我們在做報告的時候地方政府一定也要提出我們希望爭取的一些利基點嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14445.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14446.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
未來可能你說可能聯合開發之類的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14475.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14475.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14506.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14509.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14521.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14532.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政務主任、首長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生有請國發會公主委、交通部胡次長以及會計處張處長、鐵道局楊局長以及台鐵馮總經理好,我們邀請這幾位請上發言台 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14546.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14551.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
主委好 次長好 時間寶貴 我就直接進入主題剛剛我們聽到幾位委員先進問到關於高鐵到屏東這段 主委時程有沒有耽誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14557.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14585.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
會不會按期程來進行規劃?現在在中規了應該不會耽誤吧?可以如規劃日期來進行吧?所以我們現在找曹德芳要來...好 謝謝 諸位請回來 我今天關心的 次長我在上週請教你們台鐵國營公司的總經理你認為自動售票機應該工作的比人晚還是比人提早休息? |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14587.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14587.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
市長市長市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14608.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14614.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
市長你認為是機器來服務人還是人來服務機器?應該是機器來服務人你們的機器好像還有人去幫他結帳結帳完機器就休息了,人還要辛苦在那邊工作,你覺得這樣合理嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14636.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14659.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
報告委員,這個上次委員有質詢過這個議題,我們回去有把這個...來,委員會議員、會計處處長,你認為你們的會計制度上,自動售票機要每天結帳,要人工去關帳嗎?你有要求嗎?不用。不用?那為什麼台鐵這樣做,你覺得呢?它什麼原因?我不曉得,因為他們...你不曉得?欸,他們系統怎麼設計的,我不太清楚。也不曉得齁?好,來,那個鐵道局副局長。來,楊局長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14661.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14663.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
你對捷運熟吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14663.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14665.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
是的。高鐵熟吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14665.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14683.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
是的。北捷車站117站,自動售票機337台,台鐵241站,比它多了一倍,但是自動售票機多不到100台。就你所知,北捷的售票機要不要關機重開才能服務旅客? |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14684.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14687.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
可不可以請總經理告訴次長你們到底為什麼要把機台關機結帳然後讓人工去售票讓機器去休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14708.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14732.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
總經理報告委員,我們現在了解就是我們的機器可以自動的結帳但是人員要做補鈔還有補零錢的這個動作當然每一台10分鐘到15分鐘一台10到15分鐘,次長懂了齁你去ATM的時候有沒有一段銀行打烊後還去ATM提款的有沒有沒有沒有過,你這個很好命,我常常銀行下班我要去提款 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14733.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14762.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
但是我也常常看到有人定期去補鈔補鈔的人他是沒有在管上下班的時間到有故障有排除就要去你能不能認為在這種情況下只需要維持最少人力就可以幫助售票機自動運行完全同意完全同意完全同意好來總經理有人說節能減碳不是在高峰流量的客群的時候你們可以把那個自動售票機減少這樣也符合環保減碳你同不同意對同意好那請教一下那目前你們怎麼改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14763.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14776.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
對,我們目前現在已經有做全面的檢討,就是我們限定,我們自動售票機11點...你們結帳的目的是不是要把現金放到保險櫃裡面,安全是不是?那放完了現金,那個機器可不可以繼續服務? |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14778.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14797.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
我們原則上目前是結完帳就那台機器就休息了現金放到保險庫機器就休息了市長聽到沒有這就是台鐵公司的思維阿他把現金放到保險庫這個機器就休息了下班了高鐵是這樣做嗎不是不是嗎那你怎麼辦市長指導一下吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14798.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14798.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
臺鐵要跟你負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14819.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14841.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
一個月內之內上次已經說一個好你上次說三個月現在說一個月有進步來我跟您建議其實人家高鐵呢他也有售票機有分現金跟費現金的如果真的要考量到晚上沒有人的時候現金的保存有問題你可以在離峰深夜沒有人的時段你可以考慮費現金支付留幾台就可以了次長覺得這樣可以考慮嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14841.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14848.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
接下來我們請傅坤祺委員請做詢答那我們請工作的同仁便當可以讓大家先行使用因為我們中午不休息 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14875.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14885.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
謝謝主席、各位委員、在場的所有中央各部會的官員今天要再一次的表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14887.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14907.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
過去臺灣能夠邁出第一個大步就是金國先生的十大建設再過來在民國88年能夠正式動工我們的這個高鐵從臺北到左營我想接下來是第三個階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14909.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14928.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
此時此刻更希望我們國家能夠追隨全世界現在快速進步的腳步能夠盡快地把我們該有的這些基礎建設盡快地來把它建置完成所以環島高鐵是刻不容緩的 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14929.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14957.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
當然早上我播放影片給大家一起來瞭解韓國瑜韓院長說他告訴陳建仁院長環島高鐵通車的時候可能他們兩位都不在人世間了但是啊要留給代代的兒孫來走我想這是一個很感人的畫面但是反過頭來講也是一個值得傷卻很悲傷的一個畫面為什麼為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14960.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14989.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
在別的國家跟地區一個月可以蓋一條高速公路一個快鐵可以在短短一年、兩年的時間完成但是我相信韓國瑜、韓院長此時還正值壯年才60多歲如果說他看不到是不是20年又看不到所以此時此刻我們希望透過國會確實的反映民意讓台灣這個大家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14989.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15015.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
不分族群不分屬性大家能夠有一個共同的生活圈在今天歷史上會寫下今天大家所表達的意見畢竟我們不管如何我們未來昆西要再次強調我們海翼農村的時候可以回來回首木蘭回首的時候哪一條重要的道路 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15017.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15044.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
是在我們任內的時候來把它完成我想20年如果都不能完成環島高鐵的話那我們立法更有其必要性因為有了立法之後我們把這個條例是開放式的給國發會或是國發會要責成交通部來進行一個政府可以編列預算逐年來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15046.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15066.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
政府可以邀集國內或國際的廠商來做BOT來做開發我想在民國85年有一個非常重大的中華民國的決定就是當時由王永慶還有蔡萬琳等人台灣的大企業家為評審委員評審出台灣高鐵團隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15071.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15071.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15096.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15124.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
未來不管是十個工作面八個工作面同時動工未來台灣高鐵在短短五年八年內完工環島這都不是夢我們希望今天我們回應百分之六十以上的民意是希望把環島高鐵盡快的把它做起來我想大家可以上網看一下YahooYahoo的最新民調雖然雖然我的老朋友柯總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15125.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15131.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
一直把這個民生的建設議題當作政治議題來攻防在大家劍拔弩張的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15132.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15132.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15159.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15159.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
黃建斌 陳雪生 羅志強 黃國昌 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15191.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15191.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15204.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15227.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
主委好 延續上次質詢的主題我要重申一次就是要發展再生能源要發展綠能我相信絕大多數的國人都支持但是在這個過程當中如何跟其他的利益取得比較好的平衡而且不能有不正常的正常關係我相信這是大家都有的共識上次主委你也贊成嗎贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15233.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15251.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
農電共生是不是你督導的?農電共生後來那個是我在當政務委員的時候那時候你當政務委員的時候是你督導的嗎?那個時候是不是有廠商在施壓政府要把台塘廣大的林地給釋出來讓他們搞重電? |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15253.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15259.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
後來這個政策是不是引發了當地的居民跟環島強烈的抗議?是有不同的聲音,對後來台塘是不是把這個案子給停下來了?是停下來,沒有錯是停下來,現在打算要繼續推動嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15281.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15300.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
因為我現在沒有已經不歸我督導了OK還好不歸你督導你終於從那個泥沼裡面給爬出來為什麼我今天要質詢這個主題因為在這個過程當中我看到這一些有政治後台的廠商如何的囂張 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15302.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15330.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
這個是在2019年12月的時候您召集會議要求台糖兩個月以內補正銀龍型專區計畫書這個銀龍型就是我們剛剛在講的農電工生我沒有理解錯吧對 但是銀龍型它有一些小區塊的您剛才提的那個是大面積比較大所以您看一下這個會議上面除了您以外一個非常重要出席的叫做什麼 台糖 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15333.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15355.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
對啦!就是要台塘提啊!所以就是在講我剛剛講的那一件事情啊!你想起來了嗎?就是當時來講就是請台塘去盤點,是不是有剛才講的就是20年因為種樹20年要renew嘛,啊有一些樹就是怎麼樣種都種不好,那些地方沒有所以後來台塘決定要釋出是不是配合國家政策? |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15356.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15385.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
他看看有沒有彈出來有這樣的地如果有的話就可以提供了2018年事實上在這之前張景生就已經主導了要求台塘釋出750公頃的農地而且還要安排廠商跟潘孟安簡報因為最大塊的全部都在屏東嘛來政委您看一下當時出席的廠商當時出席的廠商台塘嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15387.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15403.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
聯合再生嘛就是我上次跟你講的嘛聯合再生用張景森當後台是怎麼在搞國家資源的啊我把所有發生事情的時間序啊全部都整理出來了結果2019年6月14號台台就頒布了 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15407.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15431.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
配合業者辦理把他們的那些林地全部盤點出來全部都大面積的特別是在哪裡?屏東嘛所以那個時候張景生他為什麼要找你?因為你負責農電工生嘛他為什麼要找潘孟安?因為在屏東縣嘛所有事情的發生一定有他的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15432.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15450.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
但我沒有辦法接受的是什麼我沒有辦法接受的事情是在搞農電共生這三個巨頭、谷聖輝、洪傳憲、蔡中榮三個全部都陰系的三個全部都陰系的 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15452.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15478.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
在跟台堂開會以前他們就已經開了會前會在圍標阿八家業者找來整個會議全部都他的三個什麼在主導他們三個是有什麼樣子的政治勢力阿可以左右國家的政策要台堂配合就配合就順從他們的意思以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15479.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15506.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
最後的結果是什麼當地的居民環團強烈反對這就是我為什麼一直說當你在發展綠電政策的時候你不能夠被廠商綁架你必須要各方的利害關係人取得平衡當初張景生為什麼找潘孟安為什麼找你 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15508.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15528.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
我相信這個脈絡非常非常的清楚我最後只問一個問題我最後只問一個問題就有關於釋出台塘的土地繼續搞農電共生這件事情我聽說他們又蠢蠢欲動了您站在國發會主委的立場你贊不贊成你會不會放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15529.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15553.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
報告委員就是說過去的原則還是說如果這個地它根本是不適合栽種的部分那我們就可以來利用但是如果適合那就是還是原來來使用你們在做這個決策的時候當地居民的意見重不重要環團的意見重不重要屏東鄉親的意見重不重要重要重要嘛不會像上次一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15555.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15574.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
聽這幾個英系廠商的話像台糖施壓地就放出去了搞得後來不可收拾阿整個背景的脈絡我今天已經很負責任了跟主委報告但我希望 但我希望主委你能夠站在國家的立場好好把關可以嗎好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15583.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15586.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
黃仁委員吳思雅委員王美惠委員蘇清泉劉建國委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15610.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15625.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
賴會員、賴會員、賴會員不在現場。我們請魯明哲、魯明哲、魯明哲委員不在場。我們請李博毅委員、李博毅、李博毅委員不在場。我們請陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在場。我們請許智傑、許智傑、許智傑、許智傑。 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15631.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15637.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
許智傑委員 林德福委員 顏寬恆委員 謝一鳳委員 徐宇珍委員報告委員會 登記發言的委員除了不在現場之外其餘均已發言完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15660.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15677.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
魯明哲、黃仁、黃建豪、楊瓊英、黃建斌、謝依鳳所提的書面質詢列入公報、列入記錄刊登公報。那書面質詢跟未及答覆的部分請相關單位在一週之內書面答覆並複製本會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15679.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15694.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
報告委員會我們本案詢答完畢接下來我們廣泛討論沒有人登記我們先請議事人員將法案名稱及全部的條文逐條宣讀完畢再進行協商請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15695.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15712.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
法案名稱《環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案》,第一條為推動環島高速鐵路建設、發展大眾運輸、平衡區域發展、促進觀光產業、增進民眾福祉,特制定本條例,本條例為規定者適用其他法律之規定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15713.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15736.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
第二條本條例所稱環島高速鐵路指臺灣高速鐵路由宜蘭站延伸至花蓮縣、臺東縣並銜接至屏東縣六塊錯站第三條本條例所稱環島高速鐵路範圍包括宜蘭縣、花蓮縣、臺東縣及屏東縣沿線規劃之用地取得開發及環境保護等公共運輸建設及保育系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15737.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15760.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
第4條本條例之主管機關為國家發展委員會本條例之中央執行機關為編列預算之交通部本條例之地方執行機關為縣市政府第5條國家發展委員會應與本條例通過後立即啟動可行性評估每半年內檢討一次並於一年內會同交通部及相關縣市政府制定環島高速鐵路建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15761.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15774.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
推動發展計畫綱要並同時啟動可行性評估配合施工工程進展需要全部計畫之建設完成以不逾10年為限擬定綜合建設方案其內容如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15775.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15791.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
一、方案目標及實施範圍二、可行性評估方案三、高速鐵路沿線建設規劃四、土地徵收取得五、環境綠化保護六、配合天然觀光資源開發七、天然災害防治八、分期實施計畫及執行分工 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15792.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15819.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
九分其財務需求及經費來源,十其他。第六條為加速推動環島高速鐵路之建設與發展本條例所需建設經費來源得因以下方式一、促進民間參與公共建設法辦理採用民間興建營運後轉移模式二、採國際招標方式以興建營運後轉移模式三、引進國際主權財富基金採用興建營運後轉移模式四、 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15820.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15836.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
由中央執行機關編列預算辦理之,請向由中央執行機關編列預算辦理所需經費來源,得以舉借債務或出售政府所持有失業股份方式辦理,不受公共債務法第5條有關每年度舉債額度之限制。 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15837.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15863.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
中央主管機關配合前項之建設工程計劃進展應設置環島高速鐵路建設發展基金作為推動本條例之各項永續發展、文化保障之資金規劃與需求該基金之收支保管及運用辦法由行政院定之第7條中央主管機關應以永續發展為目標結合在地文化與觀光環境保護、人文景觀、自然生態等特色 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15864.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15882.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
作為推動環島高速鐵路沿線整體交通建設與發展之計畫藍圖,並推動發展相關優質產業。第8條,中央主管機關因擬定相關計畫,對本條例興建後沿線土地開發取得,而受影響之原住民有關生活與文化保存與保障。 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15883.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15901.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
並輔導原住民參與自然資源維護與經營管理及提供相關就業機會第9條為其發動地區交通建設永續發展並兼顧建設發展與環境維護因本條例編列之環島高速鐵路建設發展基金與計劃執行完畢後之剩餘款 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15902.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15928.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
應繼續供花東地區改善交通建設之用。前項基金之中,主管機關為國家發展委員會。第10條本條例自公佈日施行。本條例施行細則由主管機關定之。宣讀完畢。好,謝謝議事組委員、報告委員會。來,我們現在開始。那請教各位委員,對法案名稱及第一條條文有無異議? |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15929.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15951.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
有異見那我們就保留送黨團協商請叫第二條條文有異議那第二條條文也保留送黨團協商第三條條文有異議有吧好那有異議我們就送我們保留送黨團協商第四條條文請叫各位委員有異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15953.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15973.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
好,那我們就有異議,我們就保留送黨團協商。第5條條文請問各位委員有無異議?有!那我們就保留送黨團協商。第6條條文請問各位委員有無異議?有!有異議那我們就保留送黨團協商。第7條條文請問各位委員有無異議? |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15985.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15996.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
有異議保留送黨團協商第8條條文請教公務員有沒有異議有異議保留送黨團協商第9條條文請教公務員條文有沒有異議這條沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16011.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16030.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
那有異議我們保留送黨團協商第10條條文請教各位委員有無異議好那第10條條文有異議我們保留送 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16034.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16045.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
主席宣告本日排定議程的法案名稱以及全部條件均保留交由黨團協商。討論事項審查完畢,請問本案需不需要交由黨團協商? |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16052.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16072.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
要須交由黨團協商,那麼院會討論時有本席說明,那審查通過之條文、條字及引述條文部分文字呢,授權本席及議事人員整理,並由本席確認。那本日議程,阿娜?阿娜?阿娜? |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16082.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16082.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16103.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16116.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
我現在在說結論啊,你現在不說什麼,剛才你說有意義,我都聽你們在說保留送黨團協商啊。我現在要程序發言一下。我可以有一個建議,我們的希望嗎?可以嗎?我們就結論啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16122.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16122.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
兩分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16151.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16152.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16182.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16198.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
也能夠安排來向本聯席會議提出可行性評估的專案報告所以我們對於這些條例的內容現在主席的才事是要保留那我們也提出了一個這樣的請求是不是也能夠請主席才事 以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16199.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16221.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
好 謝謝主席在這邊給委員報告主席主持一切依照委員會所有的委員的建議所以在剛剛做成這個會議結論的時候我一一逐條10條的條文一一請教我們各位委員有贊成也有反對有異議所以主席尊重我們所有的委員我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16223.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16245.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
10條條文一條一條問過之後均保留送黨團協商謝謝各位委員的發言剛剛主席台所宣告的結論就依照剛剛所做的決議也感謝各位委員大家熱烈的參與主席政宣宣告本日議程處理完畢上會謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16250.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16259.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
謝謝主席阿所以阿阿我來跟你講有一件事情我要拜託你們就是我們下禮拜生不是要訪問基金的對對對阿應該會議題中 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16278.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16282.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
發言委員：審查本院委員：審查本院委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16309.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16309.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
委員長 委員長 委員長 委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16339.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16341.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
全程缺席 |