| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01ebf86bd82083602361a6a4d0447effe45dd5fe0ad21242f169037e582a32066455311a68b89ff25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳菁徽 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:49:00 - 10:10:17 |
| 影片長度 |
1277 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「勞動部勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署事件及如何完善申訴管道之具體策進作為及期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席 謝謝委員我也請洪部長部長我們上個會期王玉敏委員擔任召委的時候那個時候針對一些消防人員的意外我們曾經排審公會法但當時呢全序部考試院來了他們說再給他們一點時間他們想要再擬更詳細的這個公務人員協會法那這邊本席是找出 |
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您之前的一段發言幫我播一下其實是因為剛有工會以後裡面就包括了罷工權怕罷工就包括了罷工權我說實話我自己是支持我覺得我自己是支持我覺得可以有罷工權但我知道這個社會裡面有很多人沒有不支持這件事情這個事情可能是比較爭議的或者是需要共識的地方 |
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68.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
好那考試院全序部呢今年7月就端了一個新的菜色出來首先他先降低門檻可是警察還有消防人員對這樣子的門檻並沒有滿意他是300人150人他的門檻還是過高剛林月琴委員有稱讚您說您非常貼近我們勞工朋友的心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
79.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
93.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
老公現在這個修正工會法已經從30人降到10人了這個相信您也很清楚您之前在節目上的發言也很感動我們的消防人員所以我也想知道說您在節目中講的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
95.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
119.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
公會這個如果修公務人員的協會法他現在只能提出行政救濟啊訴訟還是很難進行協商因為他們並沒有團結權協商權以及罷工權那我也想問您今天是否有這個意願會想幫助我們的消防員朋友警察朋友等等的可以納入公會法的修訂呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
121.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
134.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好 謝謝陳委員對於公務員是否能夠組公會的問題就像你剛才說這部分確實有涉及到考試員的權責我想大家都很清楚那我們當然很願意跟考試員一起來討論那就像你剛才拿出的這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
137.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
142.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
主公會會有三個重要的權利,協商權、結社權、罷工權。罷工權確實是目前大家在討論公務人員或主公會裡面最爭議的,之前我講得很清楚。 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
155.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
181.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
所以我當然現在是一個勞動部長我覺得我很願意就是說針對至少針對比方說像協商權跟結社權這部分來跟考試院來做充分的討論跟支持我很願意但是我們必須就像我節目說的目前因為主動的跟考試院來做聯繫我們當然願意來跟考試院來反映大家的需求可是我要說的是目前這個相關的法規的組織是在考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
182.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
188.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那就像我說罷工權確實在目前社會上面是爭議的事件是爭議的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
191.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
212.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所以至少我覺得就可以先優先來保障的事情是結社權跟協商權就是比較沒有爭議可以優先來保障也是有一個可能衛環委員會再把它拿回衛環來保障這些警消人員我們重新修法假使基層的這些人員並不滿意這個提出來的新版公務人員協會法的話這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
214.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
216.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
勞動部2017年提出來的報告2017年他們曾經講過說針對這樣子的問題我們看到辛苦的消防人員年輕的生命不斷的在各個的新聞不斷不斷在流逝 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
229.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
246.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
他們之前提出四個建議一個是修正公務人員協會法第二個是修正公會法第三個是針對公務人員結社法另立新法第四是維持現行法制具體的改善工作條件到目前都還沒有任何一個實現而我們已經換到第三個勞動部長了第一個勞動部部長王委員剛剛已經看了他拿錢去開演唱會第二個勞動部部長他提出來的檢討報告大家不買單 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
256.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
257.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我剛才說我認為應該從現在社會上面爭議比較小的開始下手 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
275.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
296.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
是哪一個就是關於公務人員的協商權跟結社權的保障這部分當然我們很願意優先的來跟考試院一起來做討論就勞動部本身我們當然願意來做討論這是在社會上比較沒有爭議的坦白說就是就剛才說確實現在的罷工權的部分是比較高度爭議的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
297.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
321.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以我們大概什麼時候可以知道您跟考試院討論出來的結果的報告因為這些相關的法規其實目前其實是考試院下面的權責所以我沒有辦法在這邊我們要去問考試院我沒有辦法在這邊替考試院回答一個時間上面的承諾那可能不好意思我不知道未來是不是還有朝委又會再把這一題拿回來我們衛黃委員會重新的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
322.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
324.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那我相信這個提案對你來說應該是很重要因為你上一屆也有提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
350.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
355.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這件也有提出來但是至今已經過了434天了您說啊您要把孕婦的產檢價賠產配偶的賠產價等等都全部改名為生產準備價然後不僅要放寬適用的範圍不限於讓勞工只能用在產檢或賠產價更可以用在參與產前的教育這一點您覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
374.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
401.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
其實針對對於孕婦尤其是跟性別平等相關的支持其實我這幾天其實在很短的商人時間我其實已經交代同仁這是我們接下來很重要的工作尤其是照顧不離職的部分所以我們會已經要求把相關綜合的法規因為有些時候包括賠償減價包括家庭照顧價包括等等的其實他有很多的細項我們其實已經請業務單位要做一個綜合性的評估綜合性的評估大概什麼時候會看到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
402.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
405.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以您的意思是說你以前寫這個提案的時候可能後來想一想覺得要綜合性的評估會好一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
428.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
429.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
當然要綜合性的考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
443.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
464.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好那另外一個這也是您提出性別平等工作法第29條的修正最後非常可惜也沒有到三讀您認為說受僱者或受僱求職者如果受到的不是財產上損害的話這些損害來自於性騷擾那你主張可以把精神上的不利益影響納入法定最終應該支付的賠償金額來做計算我也想問 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
468.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
468.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
陳菁徽 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
484.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
507.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個主張的初衷當然是從勞工的立場出發所以這些個別的主張我覺得第一個一定會秉持這個事情的初衷那把它放到接下來我們機制化或法制化修法的計畫裡面我們會把這些初衷尤其是從勞工角度出發的初衷當然會盡量放進接下來的修法計畫裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
509.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
531.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
之前有發生過您的助理辱罵警察還有您針對這個霸凌案您其實很早就知道了但是您的說法是說您沒有行政職權所以當時沒有辦法處理那現在您已經有行政職權了所以我也想知道說這些東西您的期程是如何不然我們還要再寫臨時提案跟你來回 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
533.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
559.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
跟陳委員報告因為確實我上任的時間到目前其實大概10天在這10天裡面我不要想推脫時間不會啊你也可以說三個月啊你也可以說兩個月我沒有想要推脫給時間但是我說我必須跟業務單位針對因為這都是重大議題而且它其實涉及到的層面很廣我確實必須跟業務單位做更仔細的討論這部分我認為這是比較謹慎跟負責任的做法三個月做不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
560.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
560.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
578.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
603.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個如果大家需要連結我昨天看的是非常感動啦因為您總質詢15分鐘全部都是在講同樣一件事我不知道您記不記得當時您拿這個經濟學的諾貝爾得主Claudia Golden你還用了她論文裡面許多的圖來告訴陳建仁院長說女性的勞參率有多低男女的薪資差異有多大然後問題到底在哪裡那我們播一下您點出問題在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
605.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
606.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這是很多年輕的爸爸媽媽共同在反映的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
625.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
647.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以我看了真的很好我把15分鐘全部都看完了畢竟我也是女性在職場工作的所以非常有感受啦各黨委員在這個會期都提出還有上個會期提出性別平等工作法還有相關的法規都有把親職假親職照顧假等等你剛剛一直在講到說沒有彈性太僵硬太難用你這件事情一直告訴誰這是很久以前囉去年3月 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
650.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
655.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
對所以呢我也想知道說未來你的這個修法的期程還有進度是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
657.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
683.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
其實我在上任的第一天其實那天記者會上其實就跟大家說照顧不離職是我們工作的重點其實這個總諮詢的影片從頭到尾在講就是照顧不離職這個主題那目前確實相關的包括育嬰假等等等我到目前都認為還是有太過僵硬的問題應該要盡快的來做彈性化可是我要跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
685.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
697.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
主持人報告因為這確實涉及到我們要跟不管是勞方的專業的意見要能夠進來包括性別團體的專業意見要進來也包括這裡面會跟要跟企業團來做一定程度的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
699.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
726.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我只能我跟你說這是絕對是我重點重的重點優先中的優先可是我們可能沒有辦法現在提供一個說到底什麼時間點的問題但這絕對是我們的重點最優先的事情所以我們今天問了一大堆問題全部都沒有任何的啟程啊你沒有辦法告訴我們可能再給我們讓再再給我們一點時間我們來做跟業務單位來做更仔細的規劃之後再來問你做到哪裡做到哪裡開了哪些會 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
728.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
754.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個是我曾經寫的臨時提案那當時呢勞動部部長是回應我說是否增訂較為彈性的輕職價就跟你剛講的一模一樣喔所以我也不知道換了一個人到底會不會有什麼改變啦實務上人需考量各行各業經營型態的不同工作型態工作時間的排班多元事業規模懸殊等等等等這跟你剛講的答案是沒有任何的不同這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
755.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
755.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
您的意思是說您的任內 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
781.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
808.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我當然高度期望這件事情我非常高度期望這件事情所以我們會用積極溝通現在確實在企業端裡面會有一些人表達有疑慮但我們不會就說你有疑慮我就讓事情停在這裡我們會積極跟他溝通一步一步的來跟他溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
809.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
818.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
你剛才說是在我任內我當然希望在這部分有突破那你有發現是哪些產業留職率最低你想先從哪些產業開始溝通嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
819.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
846.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
其實因為這些產業裡面也有不同大小的規模目前我們其實看到其實在一些比較人數比較大的規模裡面他們去做類似上面在人事上面的彈性的調動的難易度是比較低的其實您的總質詢講得非常好您大聲的告訴陳建仁院長說有33萬的女性沒有辦法留在職場對我是建議您這33萬你要先去找最多的是哪一個產業是 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
847.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
871.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
然後你從那個產業開始溝通所以我也非常非常願意因為我知道你在這方面也有你很專業的意見我也非常非常願意我們再跟你有更多的討論也請你再提供我們很多你自己的意見跟指教這部分我也很願意的最後我們來討論一下您的這份報告您上面有講到說您研擬設置一個專門的霸凌專線我想問這個跟你既有的1955勞工申訴諮詢24小時不斷電的專線有什麼不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
875.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
883.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我跟委員報告齁因為在當然在我上任前當然我們在處理尤其是北分署的事件的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
885.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
906.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
呃大家對於申訴的機制其實有蠻多的不信任所以當時其實在這個非常的時期當時我就公佈了一個我自己專屬的可是你也只有給北分署啊是那你知道後面還有很多委員要來跟你講其他部門的報告我知道我知道因為相關的案件結果沒有人打到你手機全部打到我們委員辦公室啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
907.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
927.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
重點是我覺得重點是我們怎麼去處理一個不會讓大家覺得吃案的機制因為這中間當然他申訴的過程他會經過哪些路徑這當然最後是我們要處理所以表示你這個沒有啊因為不然他不會打到我們各委員的辦公室啊等一下就會有人問你我今天是沒時間問是對所以我說建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
931.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
933.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以你設好了沒?還沒?嚴明 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
955.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
980.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
報告委員我們跟部長討論的結果是這樣子我們目前1955是所有的勞工申訴都在進來如果針對心理健康部分包括霸凌部分我們希望用我們新的資源包括預防重新中心這個資源在北東南東之前我曾經質詢過你很少人去質詢很難預約的所以我想說在這兩個月的討論那個資源可以挹注過去那勞工可以就近的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
985.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1009.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
可是因為您的報告裡面也寫到說現在你也尋求外部的心理支持然後勞動部會幫忙買單所以這件事情你是要持續做還是只是最近暫時做以後還是回到他的部門跟委員報我們確實有一個在非常時期裡面我們現在必須先做的事情因為目前確實5%的同仁們的心理狀況是比較多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1010.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1030.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這是我自己親自去探訪以後我很明確感受到的事情所以在這個非常時期可能需要一些非常做法因為相關機制的建立剛才說他可能確實需要一段時間沒有辦法短期來支應我們這個階段很即刻的需求所以我才會先公佈我自己專屬的電話跟email |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1031.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1055.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這確實是非常時期下的非常多,但未來當然要把它引導入,把機制給優化好,引導回,引導回優化的機制上,確實不能永遠都靠我的專屬電話,我想這事情我們很清楚是,沒有我在講說這個外部心理支持,其實是我們認證比較有效的,因為如果你從內部去給,大家同仁是不敢去說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1056.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1057.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
可是他剛說還是會最後會回去內部的欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1073.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1097.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
不是不是不是不是這意思我們會在至少在這段時間裡面針對北分署的這個不當管理的事件在這先就這個專屬的範範籌裡面先提供大家外部諮商資源的這樣子的支持大家去找我們這是單參考衛福部的做法在衛福部的做法他們大概在北北基宜相關的專業的諮商資源把這個網絡的連結給 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1100.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1103.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
之前我們要求你要有新的報告而且您說你現在也正在做這個新的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1122.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1149.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這個新的報告你是如果你要推翻之前舊的調查報告其實舊的報告已經被謝宜蓉的律師拿來做法庭上的攻防那之後你們要怎麼解決這件事情第一個我們會有新的報告然後在這個新的報告裡面我們希望能夠更從被壓迫的無性公務員的角度去還原到底他經歷了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1152.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1156.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那希望這個還原出來能夠讓更多的事實能夠浮現出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1158.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1160.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以有一些有可能會推翻的新事證嗎?會有嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1185.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1187.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
何佩珊部長的上一份報告他有寫到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1212.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1237.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
他這個親身的員工也有一大部分是因為他認為業務分配不均必須重新檢討可是你今天這份報告完全沒有提到業務你有講到心理支持這些很好你有講到申訴管道這些是你要去改的那如果針對這些業務分配何佩珊部長覺得這也是他親身的原因之一的話您是不是應該也要把他列進報告呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1238.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1262.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那個跟委員報告確實現在在北分署的這事情上我們這個報告裡面著墨比較少因為這是要留待這個重啟調查的報告裡面來做公佈跟呈現所以針對北分署的內容我沒有意識到一些問題包括剛才講到說業務分配或人力結構上面問題我沒有意識到這個問題但這裡面關於北分署事件的一些細節 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1264.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1265.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
主席謝謝 部長謝謝 |
| IVOD_ID |
157751 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157751 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-12 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-04T09:49:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-04T10:10:17+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |