| video_url |
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| 委員名稱 |
黃珊珊 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:29:39 - 16:50:03 |
| 影片長度 |
1224 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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謝謝院長我想請柯院長麻煩再請被提名人柯院長備詢院長好我想今天大家都會一樣的問題我也想同樣的問題要再跟您做個探討我知道你來自司法界很難得考試院有這樣的提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
27.557 |
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那當然在檢察署包括剛剛講的死刑也好其實跟司法行政還是有很多的關係同樣的考試委員、考試院擔負了台灣重要的公務人員的不管是任用、最後的保障甚至是退休所以這個勞動部的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
50.817 |
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不管您從您的角度來看這一次是不是關關相護到關了殺人因為整個內部的情形因為我不曉得他事先是不是有申訴不受理他有申訴但是都一直在機關裡面沒有出來也沒有找到外部委員他就是一個有機制沒有被落實的非常好的案例我覺得就是很遺憾的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
80.962 |
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這位同仁會發展到放棄自己的生命應該之前應該有一些徵兆出來求助無門看到相關的人大家沒有舉手莫不作聲縱容了這個首長他濫權絕對不是一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
101.974 |
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126.266 |
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而且他的霸凌已經是常態所以這整個機制我今天就說嘛多年前我們在社會上有一個很嚴重的事情叫做紅重囚事件他讓我們改革了軍隊改革了相關的法治多年後我們竟然在2024的臺灣民主法治的社會我們又在討論一個公務員為什麼被霸凌致死他一定不會是 |
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127.811 |
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馬上發生他一定是一個長期累積沒有辦法求助最後他知道他沒有希望所以他結束自己的生命一個公務員為什麼要用生命去換取體制的改革這是我們今天要深深思考的所以我想問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
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各院長我們都是來自我也當過首長我相信對相關的法制您都很清楚公務系統裡面現在有沒有相關的機制可以防止這些事情發生有吧都有其實我覺得就公務公務員要保障法有服務法有各種法但是就少了霸凌法對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
172.711 |
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194.044 |
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公務人員本來就應該負相關的警戒或者是行政責任那如果是已經涉及到刑法那當然還有刑事責任所以我們一直都是一個問題是我們有規定但是沒落實有調查機制但是調查報告可以關關相護最嚴重的是他還可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
195.439 |
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壓在他的機關高達數個月甚至如果沒有這個公務員的死亡到今天為止可能這個案子還暗無天日所以重點是考試院主管的法規有公務員保障法有公務員考機法還有相關的安全衛生防護辦法看起來一點都沒有作用對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
215.419 |
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237.704 |
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我想之前院長被提名他也承諾是這是你們要做的這也是中華民國體制上面要改的有辦法要落實第二個現在我們對於所謂的公務人員大家都在爭取尤其是警消我們在爭取公會公會的部分主要是團結權第二個他有協商權那最重要他有一個爭議權這個勞動三權我看過您的相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
242.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
263.043 |
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問卷您好像不太贊成入法是嗎對於公務人員的部分我覺得不是不贊成入法而是說我們現在有一個公務人員我們有相關的法你贊不贊成至少錦霄應該有相關的保護因為他有特殊的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
263.703 |
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282.535 |
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是 因為根據現在現在考試院已經提出修正草案修正草案但是大家都不滿意啦修正草案裡面有警消人員的特種公務人員協會但是就是不成立公務會不給罷免權罷工權這樣其實是不完整的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
284.279 |
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306.49 |
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我想罷工權的給予這個其實在各國的法制上還可以再討論我同意但是我的意思是說如果我們要做勞動的三法的精神我相信考試院有這個責任去釐清現在基層的需求好嗎是第二個部分是考試院一直是我們現在大家的問題這個問題在哪裡 |
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309.404 |
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這個問題我們去研究了一下憲法保障憲法對於考試院的執掌講得很清楚要考試任用權序考積最後保障升遷包括退休養老我想問一下柯院長您的理解考試院跟考試委員功能在哪裡 |
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327.917 |
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355.634 |
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我還沒有去了據我了解考試院它是合一制那兩部一會那藉著院會的形式來推動所以你對考試委員跟考試院的功能執掌還不很清楚然後考試委員有時候他還要兼任因為現在剩下七位委員沒關係我覺得你對他的認知是你們要保障公務員還是要考核公務員還是要禁用公務員然後不管他的退場 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
357.633 |
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382.831 |
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我想這個法律上我關於這些法治事項我就講這個案子好了這個案子 謝宜庸的案子很清楚的是我們在憲法上面考試院有這些執掌從禁用開始到保障到退休但是謝宜庸的案子裡面行政機關用公務員考機法把它兩大過免職然後運用的是公務員考機法這是行政單位的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
384.272 |
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402.846 |
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公務人員懲戒法是將來會交給監察院跟司法院也就是說發生類似的案子考試院一點角色都沒有發生這麼大的霸凌案件考試院一點聲音也沒有這不是很奇怪嗎我們中華民國國父在 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
404.885 |
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417.95 |
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創建三民主義的時候五權憲法的時候他現在的考試院的執掌顯然被這幾個單位都分割了也就是考試院目前為止只管禁用 不管退場你同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
422.637 |
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448.377 |
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考試院如果有趣的話我希望考試院要管退場今天的問題就在於退場的機制在哪裡在原機關如果真的嚴重的才會到所謂的工程會才會到司法院所以司法權監察權都已經剝奪了考試權你們管的後面的權利也就是考試院目前的執照已經離原來的五權憲法很遠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
449.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
450.395 |
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我覺得這個部分如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
451.482 |
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478.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
柯院長可以的話去爭取一下考試院在所謂的人事禁用還有人事退場上面的權責否則看起來就是考試院只能眼巴巴的看著這些機關不做事然後被罵考試院一起挨罵但是真正不處理的是那個行政機關第二個接下來到監察院到司法院就像很多的委員說的如果他去申訴他成功了他還可以回任公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
479.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
505.34 |
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這個公平跟正義我相信考試院不應該就放任他繼續能夠回到我們的公務系統繼續傷害其他的公務人員對吧這個可以法治上是不是要在明擺的規定限制這種好這個案子最特別的是剛剛很多委員在問他其實就是針對謝宜蓉被處分的他是用所謂的圖謀不法利益嚴刑不檢這個比較像 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
506.994 |
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530.461 |
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但是裡面有一條考試法12條第3項第6款脅迫公然侮辱誣告長官情節重大的時候也可以計兩大過免職對吧但是這個條款非常非常的威權要脅迫公然侮辱誣告長官情節重大才會被免職所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
532.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
552.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
脅迫公然侮辱部署同仁不屬於考機法的處罰範圍你覺得合理嗎這樣聽起來是不合理是這個是應該是我們應該是我們威權時代吧或者皇權時代的事的所以如果可以的話您可以承諾這一條條文是不是該修啊是我們可以再檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
553.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
565.957 |
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如果入罵同仁、入罵部署、情節重大也是用這一條今天謝以榮他可能就不可能翻案對吧好,我希望院長你可以說到做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
567.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
591.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
接下去我們要講的是公務員的禁用剛剛講了考試院既然管禁用但是考試院管的禁用還是停留在我認為停留在我們的科舉時代為什麼因為我們需要考試是公平的是公開的所以由考試院還有相關的考試機關來決定用人的考試保持所謂的中立性跟獨立性 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
592.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
615.826 |
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可是現在很多的機關就像今天勞動部發生的事情一樣有很多機關的用人他從來沒有看過他將來會分發到他這裡的人是誰也就是我們的考試沒有做事先的用人機關並沒有參與任何考試的過程甚至不知道誰會分發到他的這裡來 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
616.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
641.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以很多的考試院在國家原力資源論壇裡面一直在討論說要不要增加所謂的口試院長你來自司法界我知道我們的司法官是需要口試的對吧對我們當律師不用口試啊但是考司法官要口試曾經有過考上司法官筆試過口試不過的因為他就可以做一些汰換對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
642.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
650.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
因為在接受考試前第20他本來就是依照需用的有多加百分之二十所以就會討厭他有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
651.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
680.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
沒錯第一是資格就是基本的能力第二就是我用人機關需要的人才這是所有民間機關的人力資源部門會做的事但是台灣的考試院非常非常重視公平所以用人機關從來不參與考試結果最後就是等他受訓完成分發才知道他是誰我們很多的學者說這是一種相親啊結婚的那一天才看到對方是誰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
681.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
690.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以發生霸凌事件也不會是偶然為什麼因為所有的機關都已經是一個成熟的環境新人分發進來他只能 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
693.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
717.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
任命三年這三年長官對他不好他也只能忍氣吞聲就像剛剛講的他可能必須默不作聲然後等待三年的時間所以院長你覺得增加考試的機率是不是夠讓幼兒園機關能夠參與找到他適用的人我們是要考出讓他能夠用的人而不是只是用那些會考試的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
719.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
733.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
據我從考試院那邊看到的資料我知道他們這幾年也其實要再增加用人機關參與口試用人機關參與口試非常的少你看一下這個表格第一階段、第二階段從美國、日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
735.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
753.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
韓國或者是中國大陸其實都是第一階段、第二階段都有所謂的考試韓國是到第三階段那中華民國一律是比試第二階段有考試的只有少數特定的考試也就是說我們的傭人機關其實根本不知道將來誰會到他這裡來而他也不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
754.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
783.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那些人可能也不知道這個機關它的相關的文化所以最後就會發生這種水土不服然後互相誤會、誤解甚至最後發生這種霸凌的事件所以院長我們不希望公務員分發變成相親啊變成盲婚啊所以現在的全區部長一直說希望能夠增加面試如果你是考試委員這件事情你會怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
785.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
809.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我想增加面試這的確是我所看到的很多用人尤其在國外很多用人機關的一個趨勢這我同意那在面試當中那這個用人機關要參與我想這個我如果有機會我想很會考試的人不一定能夠適應那個工作或者是那個環境所以考試是公平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
810.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
827.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
需要是要看用人機關的需求他必須要在用人之前先做參與甚至在用人之際他可以去選取他所適用的人好嗎口試當然很多人都說因為臺灣有非常多的觀說文化觀說文化不足口試又會變成另外一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
829.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
856.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
公平的對待所以我們為了公平取消了口試但是我們用了口試就可能被關說這一點可能是需要設計一個更完善的機制重點是我知道您在法務部也好或在司法機制來說您在您的報告上面寫您參與了非常多的行政機關的法制作業還有行政救濟的相關的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
857.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
868.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
一般機關都會有一個法制人員在每個機關裡面對吧幾乎大大小小不管是哪一個部門都會有一個法制人員在裡面全國大概有多少法制人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
872.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
893.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
全國一千多人全國的公務員有29萬人也就是說我們的法制人員占了1435人只占了不到0.48%但是每個機關裡面的法制人員你覺得除了法制人員以外的行政人員高普考進去的公務員他們的法學素養夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
900.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
912.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
其實都不太夠,因為他們都沒有考法律所以他們可能是做採購,要修修採購法但是大部分非法治人員的法學素養其實是很低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
913.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
925.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以我們的問題在於我看到案子裡面您也說現在跟法律院有關的機關有關公職律師的制度我想問說既然有法治人員為什麼要推公職律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
926.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
955.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我想公職律師據我的了解他們是希望公職律師因為他有訴訟的經驗沒錯而且公職律師對於法學專業可能比一般的法治院他是行政法治不太一樣的跟訴訟實務不太一樣對吧律師他就看他的專業了好所以你覺得這個你的認知公職律師政府推動的目的是什麼希望做到什麼成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
956.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
970.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我覺得應該是能夠讓機關的跟法制相關的業務能夠更接近實務那尤其是現在很多機關必須處理跟訴訟有關的我知道這個案子很好笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
974.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
995.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
在12年推出來我們做律師的看到都蠻高興的因為為什麼?全世界都有各國先進國家都有公職律師美國有將近12萬人英國有將近2000人新加坡至少有380人香港有419人中華民國0人為什麼?我現在跟您說的很有趣 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
999.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1013.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
很有趣的部分就是在我們2012年推出來的時候行政院告訴立法院說我們至少有27個機關需要73個公職律師推出來之後到現在整整兩...快一年多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1015.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1030.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
只有建保署跟國防部各要了兩個他們在修編制表其他的機關沒有人要來申請公職律師沒有人要甩考試院更沒有人要甩行政院的新政策到底怎麼回事對這個的理解怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1034.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1062.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我也很訝異說沒有人要申請沒有人要開編制因為照理說應該很多機關他碰到一些訴訟案件要需要人代理的時候那我現在就告訴你了我剛剛講的這些國家他佔職業律師的比例從美國是高達18%最低的香港有4.7%中華民國0人如果這兩個機關弄壞就變成4人我們有1萬多位律師的話我們可能0點百分之0.0幾重點是 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1064.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1093.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
是沒有人要做而是沒有機關要開圈這個問題才是問題我現在要說的就是公職律師跟法治院的角色的差異在哪裡第一個就是我們考選不當時的說法法治體系是在書院會或者相關的法治單位做法律的研擬跟諮商行政增送公職律師要在第一線的業務單位瞭解業務核心協助機關依法行政這兩個是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1094.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1118.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
但我很遺憾的告訴你財政部在我質詢他的時候問他說你們要開幾個公職律師因為你們一天到晚有所謂的土地訴訟啊、欠稅的訴訟他說不用我們的法治人員就夠了不用公職律師大不了用政府採購委外找民間律師開口合約一案子兩萬五萬塊就搞定院長可不可笑政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1119.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1142.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
自己的部門不支持自己的政策您當考試委員你有什麼感想我想如果有機會當考試委員我想應該會去了解原因是什麼是不是因為編制那個緣額的問題沒辦法解決沒錯這就是公務系統最痛苦的事還有第二個就是如果我們只開了一個月六七萬塊的錢大概也不會有律師來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1144.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1170.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這兩個是如果我們要讓臺灣的每一個機關都能有一定的法治概念就不應該把公職律師排除在外第二個讓所有的法治人員都具有律師的資格這件事情可能也是另外一個方法其實現在只有11%他們是固定已經具有律師資格了我知道很多法治人員都有考取律師資格最後一個問題就是我知道你在大力推動法律專業人員的資格跟任用條例的草案對嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1172.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1199.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
四個考試合一檢、審、辯還有法制四試合一你認為就可以找回司法的公信力嗎我想當然這個要找回司法公信力沒有那麼簡單而且我覺得這個制度這四試合一裡面有一個很重要的精神他要做所謂的實習包括律師要實習司法官之前要實習然後實習呢我們現在的問題就在於司法界司法已經過勞了 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1201.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1202.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這一點我非常同意委員的看法這個實習的量能 |
| IVOD_ID |
157737 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157737 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-03 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-03T16:29:39+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-03T16:50:03+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |