| video_url |
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| 委員名稱 |
許宇甄 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:08:45 - 16:29:15 |
| 影片長度 |
1230 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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院長我們是不是請我們被庭名人柯麗鈴院長麻煩請被庭名人柯院長來打 |
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委員好被提名人你好我想剛剛有您的報告當中有提到您是檢查體系被提名考試委員的第一人那您對於這樣的轉換跑道您也覺得是一個全新的挑戰那我想今天就教您幾個問題 |
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第一個就是剛剛我想也很多委員提到就近期針對公務部門有很多起的霸凌事件的產生那當然其中又以勞動部勞發署的這個五姓公務人員他親身的案件最令人覺得悲痛那當然根據勞動部的一個檢查報告 |
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59.778 |
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他提到說謝義榮分署長：他的這個作為：管理方式目的良善：但是過於嚴厲這份報告也引發社會廣泛的質疑許多人也都認為這樣的結論：其實對於我們往生者：我們的這個被害者是不負責任的 |
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所以依照您被提名的背景顯示您曾致力於改善弱勢族群的權益但是我們需要知道面對如此爭議的事件您是否認同勞動部的報告 |
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我覺得是可以再檢討啦因為雖然說尤其是他目的良善這個用語我想引起很廣泛的討論那像我基本的理念是認為說人跟人之間應該是相互尊重 |
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我們在機關裡面大家都是機關裡面的一顆很重要的齒輪或許有大有小可是它每一個人的價值沒有什麼不同所以我覺得當一個主管或是當一個首長更應該以一種尊重的方式來溝通、來領導 |
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138.669 |
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我覺得現在的尤其現在的年輕人他們都是在從小就是那種很受關注那所以他們對於如果是傳統的這種權威式的領導他們可能會反彈很大那我覺得基本上就是 |
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157.217 |
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相互的尊重應該是一個普遍的價值觀所以貝提美認為這樣的報告其實沒有反映出問題的根本原因嗎我覺得可以再檢討另外就是說我們政府在處理這類的霸凌事件的時候因為目前我們公務人員體系並沒有霸凌的專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
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所以在處理這樣子的一個霸凌事件的時候相關的爭議往往難以解決所以因為公務員員跟勞工其實是相對不一樣的一個性質是不是要制定公務員的職安法這樣的專法那如果您當選考試委員會不會提出相關的修法有沒有思考過可能的修法跟立法的一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
202.482 |
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我想在因為我的了解其實現在在不管是在行政院體系或者是司法院那邊我有看到他們都用行政指導的方式大概有提出了一些那個辦法那這些辦法其實我看了他們其實都有像他們要設的這些委員會或小組其實都有引進外部委員 |
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253.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以如果這些制度是可以徹底執行的話那其實並不見得不能夠解決問題那今天會出現這個問題因為我不太曉得勞動部那邊的狀況他到底是這個人曾經提出申訴沒有被都被壓下來呢還是他根本就是他的壓力讓他覺得我根本就不想申訴那所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
255.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
269.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
假設說我們因為實務上的一些需求認為說這個問題的確有用法提高到法律的位階來引起各方的尊重那我覺得這是可以討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
271.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
287.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那至於是修在哪裡比較有效現在好像也有人提到說是不是在公務人員保障法那邊徵修我想這些都可以討論如果是定一個專法您認為呢就是剛講的這個公務員職安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
291.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
306.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
專法我覺得就是要可能要跟相關要收集相關的這些目前的這些法律可以因應的部分然後來討論那你要設專法呢到底是公務員的專法還是我要一體運用的專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
308.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
332.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以也希望說這個部分的話我想現在針對剛剛也提到公務員其實跟勞工其實不一樣的所以說針對公務人員能不能制定一個專法我覺得對公務人員的這個相關的保障應該也相對重要那另外就是剛剛也特別提到這個謝怡榮分署長的這個部分目前他是依據公務員考機法的第12條第1項第二款第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
333.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
359.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
一次計兩大過者免職但是呢你可以看我想那個請被庭人看一下就是他第三項有規定非有下列情形者不得為一次計兩大過處分所以依現行的法規來看其實並沒有明確的規範可以計謝宜榮兩個大過所以他如果依法提出複審請求救濟將會有考試院的保訓會審議決定請問被庭人依此規定來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
362.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
365.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
你覺得謝宜蓉救濟成功的機會有多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
386.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
412.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
是不是說沒有明文寫這個霸凌兩個字是不是這些都用不上我覺得是可以因為現在各界都在質疑依現行的法規來看雖然謝宜榮是被這個目前是說被紀兩大國免職可是以現行的法規來看只要他提出申訴的話有可能根本沒有辦法就是把他免職所以這個部分的話請問被提名的人有沒有什麼做法覺得可以解決現行法的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
413.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
425.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
如果是我來用的話我可能會看到我這邊的文字上我可能會看到的是言行不檢言行不檢是嚴重損害政府或公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
426.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
455.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
生育這也是我剛提到的就是說我們很多條文其實或許沒有寫霸凌要怎麼樣霸凌要怎麼樣可是有些概括性的言辭或許是可以涵蓋所以他的救濟當然我們要看他就是他的背後的具體事實是怎麼樣那因為現在沒有看到這個具體案件的相關的事實所以恐怕我在這邊沒辦法做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
456.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
477.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個比較明確的答覆那針對這次的霸凌事件前勞動部長何佩珊她也特別提到她說她對於龐大的官僚體系陌生始終保持著戒慎恐懼那也希望跟文官發展出合作跟友善的關係可是也忽略了文官體系有難以掌握的陋習跟惡習 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
479.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
506.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
來自於不曾想像的邪惡那我們看到政府高官對於自己的這個部門的公務人員充滿的敵視所以會導致人才的一個流失也進一步削弱了這政府的執行率所以如果依照勞動部前部長何佩珊的說法的話官僚霸凌是長久以來的官場的陋習那面對這個狀況請問一下柯院長你覺得有沒有什麼具體的方法可以打破這樣的一個官僚結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
508.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
523.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我覺得就是藉這個機會或許可以給很多主管或者是首長讓他們體認到威權式的領導並不是最可靠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
526.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
540.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那或許也可以藉這個機會可以形成一股力量來推動就是讓機關裡面的文化可以是充滿互相尊重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
541.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
567.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
是照顧同仁的是同仁可以安心在裡面辦公的可以是同仁在裡頭這個很愉快的把他的這個力量雖然可能是累的可是他可以很願意很盡心的把他的力量發揮出來我覺得這應該是我們這一次大家最大的質疑大概就是官官相護這樣的一個問題那針對這個部分的話您覺得這個部分要怎麼來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
571.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
588.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我自己如果在我能力所及部分我想我自己不會關關相輔啦那我在就是說像我在處理學院的事務我也不怕說這個自曝其短該處理就是要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
589.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
608.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那我想把它形成一個文化那或許有適當的監督的像說行政官還是有立委的監督那監察院那邊有時候也會適當的從監察院角度來做這個監督我想還是可以來共同來努力來扭轉這個趨勢的這個文化謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
613.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
631.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我想針對這個霸凌的事件賴清德總統有說過他覺得可以讓公務人員來放身心調試假來處理那其實您可以看一下就是近年來各級政府的公務人員離職就非常的嚴重比起以前高出很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
632.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
654.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
每年平均離職人數大概是一萬三千多人那您可以看到現在是指辭職的人數從110年您可以看到兩千一百九十二人111年兩千四百九十六人112年兩千七百五十二人再創新高對比到我們106年年改的時候才761人 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
656.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
676.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
足足增加了2000人所以為什麼有這麼高的一個辭職率因為各級的公務員員的反應因為人少、事多、壓力大所以要嘛就請求調職如果調職不成就選擇辭職那以往大家都說公務員員是鐵飯碗根本不可能有這樣子的一個方式就選擇辭職那請問為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
680.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
702.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
公務人員的鐵飯環會生鏽是不是跟年金改革導致收入減少有沒有關係請教貝爾提米爾報告委員關於這個辭職的原因我記得我看過統計數字裡面大部分寫的原因是寫因為個人生涯規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
705.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
714.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
是這種官方的說法嗎這是他們勾的根據他們勾因為他們知道他們要勾選一些理由那所以在統計數字上 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
717.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
719.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
請問您覺得跟年改導致收入減少有沒有關係? |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
739.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
750.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
是不是原因之一我覺得沒有統計之前沒辦法單純從這部分就做出這樣的推論出來因為原因可能會有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
751.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
777.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
因為其實我想現在因為年金改革的關係工人員的收入一直減少尤其是退休之後沒有辦法收到這樣的保障所以說造成很多年輕人連報考都不願意了那即使考進來的時候後來發覺我在可能辛苦工作一輩子到最後沒有辦法好好的安度餘生所以說很多造成這樣一個狀況我想這個是不是原因之一可能也是要請我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
778.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
795.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
科院長能夠好好的來探討一下那另外針對我們的消費者物價指數就是已經屢屢超過主計總署等相關單位認定的兩趴的這個通膨的警戒線導致物價上漲那高齡的退休者他們的生活也越來越困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
796.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
808.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那恐怕會使領這些退休金的我們的這些工人員的生活越來越不好那請問被提名人就是您針對年金改革的制度您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
809.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
832.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我想這是一個很龐大的一個制度的變革每一個設計都會牽一髮而動全身在這個設計也經過很多專家的評估據我的了解它主要是要解決基金可能會破產的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
834.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
863.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那我看到的這個就是看到的資料是顯示出說在年改之後我們這個年金用慶的這個年的年限是有延後有延後那這個基金的收入也有增加因為我現在減少了多付出去的減少了那可是依住的因為我法律規定我因為減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
865.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
870.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
請問一下被提名人您是法律人如果基於信賴保護原則的話你覺得應該做這樣的年改嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
881.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
909.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我想這一部分大法官好像也有表示一些意見我想一個政府他要做這樣的改革應該有他的整個規劃要不然政府我想沒有一個政府不管是誰執政願意去做得罪這麼多人的一個問題所以我想說這個問題到底是不是對大部分人不合宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
910.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
937.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這個可以在大家可以來看看那尤其是減少的收入的情形我想需要一些具體的數字來檢視現在退休人員他所領的薪資跟限職人員的薪資到底差距多少有一些比較具體的數字出來之後或許大家可以你剛剛有提到說因為可能是因為基金的關係怕會有用慶的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
938.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
955.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
不過說實在以這幾年來說政府其實都超收稅金每年都打幾千億所以說如果真的有這樣的問題的話基於信賴保養者要照顧過去的我們這些退休的人員在年輕的時候跟政府的約定就是希望他能夠在年輕的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
956.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
980.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
因為當時的一個時空背景所以他們的薪資相對低可是政府為了延攬優秀的人才能夠進入到政府所以有一點這樣薪資遞延的一個概念保障他年老之後可以有這個退休金可以養餘生但是現在因為這樣的年改導致我們的這些退休的人員感覺上好像就是被政府騙了因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
982.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1001.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
現在因為年改的關係：他們的所得替代率一直不斷地遞減那到今年為止已經遞減到67.5%那我本席也有提出修正案希望能夠就是到113年1月1日停止遞減請問您知不支持年金所得替代率能夠遞減 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1002.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1028.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
停止他的遞減我想這個不是我贊不贊同而是我想這個要看精算的結果啦那我覺得這個還是必須要信賴我們的專家那看是不是考試院這邊找到就是我想他們有一個團隊嘛那提出他們精算的結果那這個精算的結果其實應該是可以受民意監督的 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1030.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1053.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
最後再請教您一個問題就是您知不知道就是今天在凱道有一個活動就是追思白玫瑰的活動您知道嗎今天因為剛剛中午的時候我有過去參加這個活動是由重大刑案被受害者的家屬所舉辦的那現場都是這一次就是因為家屬受害而 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1055.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1079.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
導致說他們自己的親人受到殺害那這些受到殺害的這些家屬呢卻因為這次大法官這個憲判制第8號的判決讓他們的這個已經判定死刑了但也沒有辦法執行現在已經改判無期徒刑所以請問被提名的人您是否支持廢除死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1081.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1095.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我想這一個大法官他他這次的他做了很多限制那當然受到很多的批評那我覺得死刑這一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1096.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1116.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
從保護人權來講他到底是不是如果廢除到底是不是保護其實這是從這是沒辦法有一致的見解的因為你是從被害人的角度跟加害人的角度那絕對是不同的結論那從被害人的角度絕對是沒辦法接受要廢除死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1117.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1136.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那從國際人權他們在呼籲的又是要廢除死刑那一個社會裡面到底可不可以接受廢除死刑我覺得其實就是看我們的民意能不能接受那貝提米納您本身您支不支持廢除死刑我覺得是可以討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1137.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1149.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
沒討論因為我想剛剛有提到我們宪判制第8號現在的判決其實有8項的條件所以您身為檢察官依據這8項的條件你認為1015的經驗目前還有判決死刑的可能嗎我必須承認是非常難 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1157.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1173.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
一致決法官一致決還有各項的這個八項的先幾乎是等於就是實質廢死了所以在這個部分的話基於剛剛您也提到就是針對這個被害者的這個社會正義跟秩序維護的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1174.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1187.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
其實它都有不可替代的作用所以說針對這個部分請問一下就是說如果在實質廢死的狀況之下那被害人的正義能夠在沒有死刑的一個狀況之下得到彰顯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1192.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1214.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
因為這牽涉到價值判斷那我想我到考試院我們的執掌裡面大概比較不會牽涉到我對死刑的就是我必須採什麼樣的態度那如同我剛才所講的我覺得這是從不同的角度要看民意我可以接受到什麼樣的程度那從被害人的角度我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1215.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1227.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
因為現在的民意調查大概都有八成的民意是反對廢死的但是大法官這個憲判之第8號卻是這個等同實質廢死所以我想這不是我們的一般民眾能夠接受的 |
| IVOD_ID |
157736 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157736 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-03 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-03T16:08:45+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-03T16:29:15+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |