| IVOD_ID |
157719 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157719 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-03 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-03T09:31:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-03T09:51:50+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/28156fb6ec38ead39499dc7b14bc260513383a67259e81587684e4ed073dbfdfdd4df15546ecd50f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳昭姿 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:31:05 - 09:51:50 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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提名人王教授王教授 |
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44.848 |
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王教授早您是護理界的領軍人物那你過去在護理、公衛跟醫療有相當深的這個耕耘所以你整個專長領域大概就是跟整個國家的健康、健保、保健、醫療體系是息息相關的那今天本席想就這個公務員的權益還有這個護理師的職業以及現行的考試制度的問題就叫這個王教授 |
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45.848 |
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我首先想請教你公務員有沒有拒絕加班的權利一般而言加班也是要經過當事人同意公務員呢 |
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63.965 |
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87.871 |
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公務員的話我想是應該經過一些協商通常是如果要加班也應該是協商說為什麼這加班這麼重要我讓你看一下三年前的新聞背景就是考試院要修正公務員服務法的草案當時立法院的法治局提出建議說公務員基於公共利益及為民服務責任 |
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89.071 |
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117.678 |
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需要及時回應社會跟民眾的需求所以跟民間企業的業務本質是不相關的不一樣但是基於公務員本個人的健康問題如果他們實在無法配合超時的加班應該是要讓公務員享有拒絕加班的權利這是法治局的觀點但是當時權序部的回答是這樣的因為所有公務員所設業務甚至關心人民的生命財產安全 |
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118.658 |
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146.951 |
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那加班是長官對下屬他監督範圍所指派的是任務啦那實務上長官是可以斟酌加班的合理性、必要性、急迫性等等再進行指派如果覺得權益受到影響那公務員可以依公務人員保障法提起救濟所以當時權敘部就認為不適合增訂公務員能拒絕超時加班權力的法條請教王教授您認同這樣子的一個見解嗎 |
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174.027 |
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我覺得為了公務人員的安全跟健康以這樣的觀點來看是應該是透過一個協商的機制那當然是公務人員是他是肩負的剛委員有講他是公共利益或是說其他人民的權益他跟一般的企業界不太一樣您說的協商其實還是有一點模糊 |
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174.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
201.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
事實上從整個公務體系來看超時加班最嚴重的消防員過去考試院下有一個保訓會在2013年曾經對基層消防員徐培堯等人針對嚴重加班的問題提出複審當時保訓會關上救濟之門就直接拿公務員的三法規定把消防員的申訴駁回了 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
203.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
226.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
結果最後大法官在6年後2019年認定公務員保障法第23條是違憲的而且要求三年內檢討修法但結果考試院全序部在釋憲後的這一波修法還是出現很多的問題為什麼呢王教授因為修法後 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
227.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
253.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
也許您熟悉他要求超勤時數必須在兩年內兩年內把它補休完或換成加班費但是各地方政府他為了減少加班費的付出所以他就拼命的排補休假那補休的時候這個補休的時數我知道最多還有上千小時消防員有上千小時那一直排補休就會落到工作落到別人身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
254.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
260.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以我要再次請教王教授針對有問題的法律是不是要等到被說是違憲才來檢討考試院不能主動一點嗎我覺得這個議題真的非常重要就像臨床上委員也知道護理人員的加班或什麼樣的我覺得這個應該是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
279.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
302.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
最重要的Priority就是說健康權非常重要不能無限加班一定要在一個規範或是公務員沒有勞基法保護所以他超時加班所以我覺得這個可以來做研議到底怎麼樣的加班才適合時數期待王教授如果有機會進入考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
303.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
312.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我覺得這個很重要 健康權非常重要接下來我要請教護理人力的問題全世界都有護理人力短缺的問題雖然台灣每年總 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
315.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
335.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
總職業的護理人數是增加的但是因為高齡化或是慢性病化、多重疾病化等等社會需求增加所以護理人力的需求也是增加的那世界衛生組織在2020年它有一個State of the World Nursing2021年還有Global Strategic Directions for Nursing and Midwifery 等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
336.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
357.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
他建議各國在2030年之前每年護理畢業生要增加8%來因應護理人力的需求您的報告中也有提到護理人力政策準備的12項策略我想請教王教授你認為護理師的高離職率簡單的說是有哪些原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
358.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
385.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
高離子率護理人員的高離子率這個當然是感謝委員提問委員應該蠻了解的護理人員的高離子率當然第一個就是跟職場的壓力跟職場的環境這個是大概是聽到的是最重要的那當然還有其他很多不同的一些原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
386.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
409.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
王教授我舊護理人力政策準備12項策略中考選部要負責的部分請教你第一個就是國考增次、題目精進第二個是增加這個就是增加國考次數但是把題數降低你剛剛也報告了調整難度第二個是建立跨部會的護理教考用的協力平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
409.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
438.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那該策略計畫預定119年能夠增加5.6萬到7萬人的護理人力王教授你認為這個數字可能嗎以這樣的因為我們現在少子女化你認為可能嗎比較困難好有困難那你認為不管達到多少數字你認為留任率大概是多少留任率當然是留任率留任率 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
440.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
451.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
應該是越高越好就是也跟那個流動率嘛會是多少會是多少流任率會是多少經過這樣的整備計畫流任率會提高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
453.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
474.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我們希望當然留任率是越高越好啦王教授這個調整難度的部分當時引起很多的一個討論跟爭議啦他被認為是降低國考的難度那在請王教授回答之前我想先來反映基層護理對這件事的一個回應2023年11月臺大院工會抨擊他們認為考選部11月9號突襲公告降低護理國考門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
480.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
485.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
針對難度較高的基礎醫學從2024年開始立刻比重從20%降到10%那麼這麼重大的調整卻僅召開一次的專家學者諮詢會議而且會議中沒有任何基層的團體參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
499.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
523.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
科學部短短一個月內並火速的公告而且在11月15日就要完成意見表達那我們來談一下基礎醫學這個門檻你把難度高的比重降低那會不會就是告訴民眾說我們因為人力不足所以我們必須把標準降低那這個是不是拿專業形象還有社會的正當性甚至是勞資協議的協商的這個籌碼開玩笑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
527.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
535.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
公會跟護理團體痛批這個是走回頭路請再稍後一下當時的這個我還不是立委當時的薛瑞炎部長說話不負責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
538.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
558.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
他說他不僅未能理解護理界的擔憂還口出狂言請看這是他講的話我不曉得不滿意的護理師是用什麼道理由一方面說人力不足那我們現在要充實人力所以充實就增加那國考有更多人的考過他們又要反對我不知道他們的邏輯在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
561.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
573.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
但是護理界的擔憂還是沒有停止黃教授你認為考選部未來在公告相關資訊的時候應該怎麼做比較好當然其實有經過程序這個議題其實沒有執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
577.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
601.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
就是說降低基礎醫學那時候是在研議當中所以現在五科都是20%都一樣分量都是一樣的降低難度的部分呢降低難度其實我覺得這個是大家有誤解啦如果說所有的考題都有上網公告考完了馬上上網公告其實還很多我聽到就是說從80體變50體為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
606.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
627.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
80體60分鐘要來做80體要0.45秒就要回答一個問題這個是非常的所以長期提次也許可以討論但是基礎醫學的比重大家都知道基礎醫學就是走向臨床醫學的基礎啊如果護理人員沒有這個教育他沒辦法從病人的主訴去瞭解做一些基本的判斷跟處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
628.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
656.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那他一定影響他後來的一個判斷的品質跟結果可能引起醫療爭議啊影響照護品質啊甚至病人的安全啊所以這個部分你的意思是說這個部分暫時不會去處理嗎沒有現在已經這個政策也聽各方的意見之後我們就是希望跟專業團體還有用人職業主管機關就是把這些基礎醫學的有一些概念也放到各科的臨床 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
656.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
659.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我認為真正的問題在於每年護理科系畢業級通過執照考試的人數跟實際進入職場職業的人數63% |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
674.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
693.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
相差太大了每年有9000多名畢業生但是只有4、5000人會領證照那你增加國考的次數降低難度好像會帶來一些改變但是無法根本解決問題那目前他是做了一些補救措施包括這個夜班津貼、三班護病筆的獎金 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
697.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
720.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那我也支持這個今天的發放但是這些預算會年年有嗎而且這些發放機制裡面還有很多的問題跟不足所以菲律賓護理師協會會長安達姆還講說政府與其花一些時間在想花招還不如根本解決問題所以護理人員職業環境如果不改善的話不論如何修改考試制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
721.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
744.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
王教授我認為目前我們根本沒有辦法讓資深的護理師留在留任去帶領新生代的護理師所以他就是免洗人力啊免洗人力啊六七年正好用他們平均留任時間才六年啊所以對考試人來說是不是增加人力就好增加人數就好呢你就把護理師當作免洗人力嗎王教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
745.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
770.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我想是這樣的護理人力大概不是一個部會可以解決的所以為什麼我說要從教考訓用因為我們未來的人力的需求真的是因為我們超高齡社會會需求是越來越高那所以呢教育端我們也跟教育部就說如果辦學比較好的學校應該趕快多一點名額來培育要不然會緩不濟急 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
771.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
794.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
王教授您是目前考試委員當中這個背景最深入的所以這個部分大家都知道現在是危機啦我再請教你您過去說過法規是護理人員權益非常重要的一件事情一環啦那我想請問就目前的法規你認為可以保障護理人員的權益嗎目前的法規足夠保障護理人員的權益嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
795.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
811.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我當然就是因為我最近沒有在衛生署不過衛福部不過我覺得護理人員的法規當然是用人機關要去檢視除了護理人員法護理人員私刑細則還有勞基法 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
813.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
827.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那我講得更清楚好了目前護病比尚未入法是採取獎勵先行的方式很多基層表示說這個制度失靈撐不下去了我就請教你直接請教你你支持三班護病比入法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
829.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
845.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
三班互併筆入法是非常不容易但是現在政策已經往這一方面我覺得很好為什麼三班互併筆是對護理人員的照顧的負擔所以你支持嗎那請問你認為互併筆要如何計算現在連計算都有問題喔你認為基本上簡單講一下該怎麼計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
857.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
867.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
護病筆現在是三班護病筆所以都有公告不然醫學中心區醫院那個公告都是平均都是假的跟基層的感受完全不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
868.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
889.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那當然是每個醫院都要公開我們說的資訊要透明公開公開到什麼程度?每一班嗎?每一個類別病房嗎?還是一個大大的平均數呢?當然就是看衛福部的要求一定要依照衛福部的要求來做衛福部如果做得不好考試院沒有意見嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
893.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
910.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我想我再跟你講一個數字目前全台灣的空床比例大概40%那護理人力一定是其中很重要的一個原因我想請教你醫院評鑑有沒有作弊包庇的嫌疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
913.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
936.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
醫院的高層護理人員有沒有作弊跟包庇的嫌疑為什麼都可以輕易過關護理人員這麼不足為什麼可以輕易過關呢確實醫院評鑑是一個非常重要醫療品質把關跟人力把關的一個重要的機制但是都過關啊大家都過關都很歡喜啊醫學中心還繼續增加表示沒有問題啊是不是有包庇 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
943.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
970.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
作弊的嫌疑我們教授這題大概你很困難回答關於你回傳的文件我再請教你目前這個當然高普考的報考率很低迷還有特定的科目錄取不足也是其中的問題那你剛剛也有回答這個高普考率報考人數下降其中有個人你第一個答案還是講這個少子化有關係那當然還有多重的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
971.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
988.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那我想請教你除了這些原因之外你提到的考試科目多還花很多錢公務體系限制等等等等近期頻傳出的公部門職場霸凌案會不會也是原因之一您認為會不會也是原因之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
990.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1009.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
確實我覺得公務體系的一些管理措施或是職場環境一定透過這樣的我覺得也是非常重要應該未來可能也是讓就是我們的青年學子進來的一個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1010.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1037.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
所以我們一定要趕快的建立一個很良善跟零容忍不管是性騷擾或是職場霸凌我覺得都是零容忍黃教授勞動部事件發生後因為很多民眾相信在野黨的立委才有能夠幫他們主張公道所以我這裡成了部分的全國申訴中心我的案我的搜案是非常多的我要談到的今天我們談醫療領域無論公司機構其實醫療場域是一個非常緊繃的工作環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1038.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1048.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那除了職場霸凌案其實護理師有時候還面對職場上的一些我們不可諱言嘛就從媒體上性騷啦性歧視啦性侵害等等上個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1050.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1074.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
屏東榮總有一名護理師因為性別認同遭主管同事霸凌欺負最後選擇用最極端的方式對待自己他媽媽每天以淚洗面希望孩子趕快醒過來但是屏東榮總的回應是說調查中初步上未查獲霸凌行為我想請教王教授的意見您看到這個新聞了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1081.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1094.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我覺得不管怎麼樣我覺得性騷擾跟職場霸凌在醫療場域會不會很多其實我在十多年前跟三十年前就對醫療職場的性騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1098.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1101.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
Iwan Nawi 與職場霸凌有相關研究發表Iwan Nawi 與職場霸凌有相關研究發表 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1124.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1138.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
關注醫療介入措施可能對負面的不良影響那關於這幾個點您現在還是認同吧可見性、可及性等等那我想請教你雖然不是考試委員的職責但是你是健康政策專家事後必應完 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1139.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1156.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
在事後72小時內的效果最好越早服用這個成功率越高所以取得這個藥物的可敬性、可及性甚至費用本身這個是非常的重要如果你去看醫師要括號待診再問診 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1158.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1175.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
然後你取得的藥品的這個門檻非常高有可能錯過這個黃金時間那一旦錯過黃金時間你知道結果嗎你就剩下兩個嘛一個是口服墮胎完本來是避孕完第二個是什麼侵入性的人工流產手術這個背後的數字我都掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1176.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1193.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以我想請教你就一位專家女性健康專家請問你支不支持事後避孕完列入指示藥就是非處方藥你在國外看過美國的非處方藥乘藥數量是比處方藥還高因為就醫的障礙很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1195.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1222.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
您贊成嗎?您支持嗎?我覺得對婦女來講應該這有專業判斷過嘛尤其是剛說的是不是開放藥局我覺得醫藥分業之後藥局您同意嗎?您贊成嗎?我自己個人是為了婦女的健康我是贊成的好謝謝我再跟你加強一下WHO也主張開放十大先進國台灣自己定義十大先進國也開放了 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1236.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1236.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
王秀紅教授 |