| IVOD_ID |
157708 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157708 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-29 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-29T17:04:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-29T17:24:20+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:06 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b70639e17121d40e18a764bb3245ee31dfdd0ce9dd923ede6ad76c153fc20d1be5a3b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳春城 |
| 委員發言時間 |
17:04:14 - 17:24:20 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-29T14:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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有請鄧家基老師請鄧備提名人答詢委員好鄧老師你好應該要叫你老師以你的資歷我仔細看你的資歷加州土木工程的博士 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
44.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
72.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
而且在我們的環境工程當中高考高級工程師當了兩屆的市議員大學的助理教授環保局長還有擔任台北市的副市長看你的這個資歷真的感覺你來當考試委員有點大材小用但是考試院既然來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
74.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
88.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我要給你考一些問題我看看你有沒有決心這考試院長期來一直被討論要廢除特別現在我們的執政黨長期主張要廢除考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
90.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
117.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
現在又不廢除了那也提名了那既然進來但是我想啊這個鄧老師你長期在公務機構我想啊你是非常了解公務員基層公務員的心聲嘛應該不會霸凌吧你以前有霸凌記錄嗎不會吧應該是從你裡面得到了很多的基歐這個公務人員的獎勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
120.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
142.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
但是我覺得應該替公務員感到要幫他們有不平之名在我大學的時候我們班上的同學大概都是成績最好的會去考高補考考公務員都是非常優秀的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
146.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
163.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
但是我們現在公務員在我們社會上面普遍評價不高今天工商時報的社論有一篇社論叫做《文官體系可以陷入平庸之惡》 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
165.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
191.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
平庸之二這個是一個政治哲學家漢納厄蘭他的很有名的一個在談公務體系裡面有很多優秀的人後來進入這個體系裡面都缺乏了思考的能力然後只會配合體制 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
192.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
220.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
配合體制然後甚至沒辦法發揮他的良知良能成為一個筷子手在執行一些那我覺得為什麼這一些這麼優秀的人進入到這個體制裡面會變成這樣子我為他們感到非常的不平我相信不是個人的意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
222.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
251.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
是這個環境、這個組織、這個結構我想誰能改變他們看起來主要在考試院你們從禁用、升遷、退輔從進來到輔續退出去都是考試院職者但是長期來講考試院也是一個平庸機構老太隆中 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
252.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
281.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
老太隆中的一個怎麼可能會能夠保護這些人呢能夠給他們旺盛的一個戰鬥的一個意志呢我相信每個人都希望成為一個卓越的人特別是這些能夠考過高普考的這些人都非常的優秀所以呢我對你的期待很高我對你期待很高希望我想這個四年的任期 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
283.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
310.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這個我搞不好這是最後一屆了這個你願不願意成為一個烈士好好的改革不要顧慮那麼多不要管政治不要管要衝撞要衝撞這個體制為自己也為考試院留下一些好名聲可以嗎可以你有意願嗎有接下來我有四個題目要來問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
312.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
339.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
第一個當然就是文觀體系跟你討論文觀體系為什麼會陷入的平庸之惡那到底怎麼做考試院是政府的人力資源的部門所有的組織改革都必須從人資的策略這在企業都是這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
342.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
371.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那在之前我看考試院唯一有心改革的就是前院長關中、關院長他很積極地要推動文官制度的改革然後特別是考機法這些的推動不過以連他這樣子的一個重量級的政治人士這樣一個備份的他最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
372.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
391.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我自己也覺得叫做一事無成那所以要請問你你做得到嗎請問你如果擔任考試委員你會想要推動公務人員考記法的淘汰制度嗎我們以前都覺得公務人員是鐵飯碗 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
396.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
416.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我這個連續幾個問題你等一下統達這第一大項就是如何去除這種平庸之惡你會推動公務人員的淘汰制度推動考積法的制度嗎再來的話就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
423.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
439.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
面對這個整個全球化國際的競爭我們國家的競爭力那如何來推動我們優質的文官制度那想聽聽你的看法如何做是謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
440.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
468.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我剛才提到了就是說怎麼樣利用考機法能夠提振我們整個公務人員的不管是士氣或工作效率這也是過去考機法一直被認為它是主管的一個人情工具的一個主要的弊病那麼我在報告裡面跟過去的這樣的一個感受我覺得考機的制度不再是幾個人能夠獲得甲等 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
469.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
497.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
而是他工作表現該獲得甲等的我們都應該給他所以未來考試院在做這些方面的一個推動如果我有機會來做建議的話我們應該朝這個方式就是說怎麼樣落實考核工作有成效認真的我們給他甲等那這樣的話你才能夠有一個誘因激勵同仁也好吸引外部的人才進來也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
498.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
519.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第二個部分您剛才提到關中、關院長當時我也是基層的公務人員當科長每年也都要打考機當時關院長提到了一個重大的震撼的概念就是說我們不好的應該要勇於打丁等也就是說淘汰的機制可是我們回想 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
520.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
537.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
院長提的是最少要3%就考機法的規定都在主管的權限範圍他工作不好的不要說3%你5%也可以也就是說我們要有這樣的一個淘汰的機制在考機 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
539.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
567.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
一年的工作裡面的考核如果不能夠展現這樣子他怎麼樣去配合身牽肌力來激發我們公務人員勇於認識所以我講就是說在這樣的情形有機會我一定會做這方面的一個建議就是假的你要名列條列符合的我就給他這個國家的競爭力這在企業一定是這樣做最近這個川普準備上來他找了馬斯克 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
568.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
579.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
成立了政府效率部那個馬斯克打算把聯邦政府砍掉四分之三砍掉四分之三他覺得效率會更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
581.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
609.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
效率更好所以要有競爭力就是說希望在這一點當中不是說我們對那個我想這個才是對基優的公務人員對表現好的公務人員我們要給他更好的條件更好的提升差異化才能夠留住人才但是也不能吃大鍋飯 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
611.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
636.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這個會讓大家的士氣低落所以希望考試院要往這個方向要去衝撞這個體制第二點要請教你行政中立文化的建立最近勞動部爆發的員工霸凌事件引起了全國的震撼 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
637.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
657.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
大家看到了公務部門爭功為過然後呢升遷只講究學童的純正不在小圈圈裡面的就沒有份勞役不均公職環境的黑暗面浮上了檯面那這個在早期啊我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
659.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
683.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
公務單位整個的還是有很多人人正式很敢講話很敢秉持專業給執政當局來建言即使到威權時代蔣經國的時代他的各部位的部長都很敢勇敢建言勇敢提出他的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
685.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
714.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
即使是這樣子但是我很遺憾的看到我們這個現在感覺不會所長的聲音的地位越來越降落了越來越不敢講話了這就是這個古代在講的所謂的大官馳鹿好鱷魚小官畏罪而解舌嘴巴結結巴巴的不敢講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
716.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
740.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我想現在是我們很多普遍看到的整個的公務機構的風氣大家越來越多的高階文官考量的是政治正確甚至不專業這個對整個的士氣整個公務體系用人不能為財這個是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
744.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
766.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
請問你如果你當上考試委員你如何來捍衛文官的中立讓文官能夠秉持專業良知為國家利益來做事謝謝委員行政中立是找回公務人員文官系統尊嚴我覺得是一個非常重要的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
766.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
795.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我在報告裡面也特別提到就是說公務人員他雖然是爬格子但是他很珍惜他所得到的這些位置尤其是主管職務所以公務員的系統理論上你主管掉非主管這算是一個重大的懲處可是如果我們在政黨輪替的過程裡面明天要就任今天就把市政府的副秘書長全部都把他通知他要撤換 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
797.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
800.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個會影響到沒有被撤換的文官體系在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
802.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
825.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
未來的選舉他是不是要靠邊站那這個東西公務人員的尊嚴他就沒有辦法能夠得到保障所以我覺得您剛才提到的就是說怎麼從行政中立裡面來開始著手那麼從行政中立法裡面各位可以看得到就是說他規範比較多的都是公務的體系包括人員、資源等等你不要去靠向政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
827.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
852.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
但是反過來如果未來有機會我倒是會建議就是說我們不管是政務人員或者是政黨的活動你怎麼樣能夠規範不要逾越該有的規範來去要求我們現有的公務人員第三個問題要來請教你對於公務單位依法行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
853.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
874.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
及如何在依法行政之下有前瞻的思維我覺得這點非常的重要上個禮拜我在質詢我們這一個政府的前瞻計畫第5期已經最後一期總共花掉了8400億那主責單位是國發會我問國發會 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
883.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
910.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這一個這八千四百億快要花完了我們的國家錢沾了嗎大家都在吵著錢不夠人不夠但是呢事實上看起來都在原地打轉這個不僅是剛才說那個川普要大砍這個公務單位我們自己也要去想 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
912.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
931.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我們自己想我們這個公務人員為什麼沒有前瞻是不敢做不敢創新另外呢那個我們的國債一直舉債現在已經快要到六兆了快到六兆那我要請問你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
932.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
941.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
柯文哲當台北市長號稱幫償還幫市府償還了570億你應該是副市長吧當時是那他這570億是怎麼還的為什麼他可以還錢各個縣市都在舉債我想這個我還是跟委員報告就是說在整個財政企業率 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
957.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
972.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
首長也是佔了很重要的一個關鍵首長如果不好大喜功他不會利用公家的資源來強化他在任期不必要的績效那麼他能夠節省 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
973.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
999.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我舉個例子跟各位報告就是說像四大院他就節省了很多錢這是大家有印象的那首長的重視以後你把不該花的都節省下來那這個會形成一個機關的文化也就是說在這樣的領導的過程裡面你讓各局處能夠尊潔開支該用的用不該用的我們不要亂用這樣的話他財政機率就能夠建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
1000.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1028.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
另外一個因為時間快沒了再來就是公務人員的慣性慣性就是說好像開車他只會一直要往前就一直往前要退後就一直退後以教育部為例像以前我們要開大學就一直開一直開一直開也不管那個掃紙化的趨勢一直開那現在掃紙化的照不到學生的就一直關一直關一直關 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1029.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1047.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
他只有一直開跟一直關這個在企業的思維是不可思議的不可思議的公務單位這個耗損多少啊所以我們教育部啊我們這20年來我們的教育我們的學生總人數減少了從500多萬現在400多萬少了100萬超過100萬但是我們的教育經費從1000多萬變到3000多萬多了三倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1058.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1063.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
就是這樣子的一個從企業的角度是不可思議的但是為這個單位就會這樣子做請問啊如果這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1069.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1093.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
如何讓龐大的36萬的公務大軍能夠跳脫這樣的一個舊思維能夠有前瞻的這個透過訓練或者是怎麼樣你覺得公務應該怎麼做謝謝委員就是說您提到了就是說不管是這個平庸之惡或者是慣性我倒完全認同就是說前瞻性是非常重要就公務體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1095.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1123.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
應該要脫除過去就是說把工作做完就算是完成他應該要強調效率而這個效率是不是能夠符合未來的這樣需求如果能夠兼顧這一點現在考試院也好人事行政總署應該也在因應這些方面對公務人員的考核要導向這個攻擊制也就是說你做了以後對國家社會是真正有攻擊我想這應該能夠避免這樣的一個弊端 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1124.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1144.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
所以未來有一件很重要的事情就是臺灣的人口的問題未來30年臺灣最重要的事情是人口的天翻地覆這一個少子化、高齡化、社會的定型但是我發現我們的公務單位幾乎都沒有這樣的一個思維 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1146.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1169.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
都還是停留在1970年代那種人口金字塔的思維用這樣的思維在定政策我們已經走向盜金字塔型而且是跑在世界的第一名啊跑在最前面了這個的政策的擬定讓我非常的驚訝非常的驚訝完全沒有對準國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1169.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1189.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
沒有看到這一個的情況所以有關於接下來包括考試的項目包括我們培訓的項目對這些公務單位如何因為這個從遴選包括訓練包括怎麼樣如何讓這些公務員有這樣子的思維的改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1194.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1199.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我想這是國安問題我們一定會特別重視在整個考選如果未來有機會我們一定會把這個東西納入參考謝謝委員 |