| IVOD_ID |
157704 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157704 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-29 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-29T15:20:19+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-29T15:40:52+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:33 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b706330cddef90fcbee1c4bb3245ee31dfdd063ef1f738005af671aa97a5015985c895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:20:19 - 15:40:52 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-29T14:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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謝謝副院長是不是麻煩有請被提名人邱教授請邱被提名人答詢委員好被提名人好我想為了便於溝通我就稱呼您邱老師這樣可能一直喊被提名人邱文彥先生也很拗口 |
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我想邱老師過去不管是擔任公職擔任立法委員或者是在學校任教有你一定的reputation不過也請邱老師要能夠理解在立法院這個國會的殿堂你也擔任過立法委員立法委員最重要的工作就是要站在人民的立場來行使這個人事同意權 |
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97.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
所以接下來的問題或許會有一些直接請您不要見怪這是一個立委該做的事情您擔任立委應該可以充分理解吧是的好來第一個事情您是不是支持在公務人員保障法裡面徵定反霸凌條款我們應該要去修改修訂考試院所制定的法律比如說是公務人員保障法 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
100.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
123.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
所以您知不支持我支持你支持嘛有一件事情我要藉由這個質詢的機會提醒邱老師如果有一天你有幸擔任考試委員的話不要犯相同的錯誤我為什麼說你如果有幸擔任考試委員不要犯相同的錯誤我那一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
124.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
147.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請教我們的院長被提名人我說他支不支持在公務人員保障法裡面徵定反霸凌條款他馬上同意在行使同意權的場域當中他會說同意我一點都不驚訝但讓我驚訝的是什麼我完成了那一場同意權行使的詢答以後我回去查了考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
148.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
174.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
院、院會所有的紀錄我赫然發現2021年就有考試委員在考試院的院會提出來在公務機關霸凌的狀況我國的法制不夠應該要修改結果發生了什麼事情邱老師您知道嗎讓我震驚的事情是發生的事情就是什麼都沒發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
176.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
199.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
有考試委員在院會提出了這個問題要學術部處理學術部什麼都沒做2022年相同的問題再被考試院院會提出來討論要求保訓會處理結果保訓會還是什麼都沒做 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
200.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
229.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
在2024年的今天當整個台灣社會為了精誠的公務員被霸凌到選擇結束自己的生命整個社會都在哀傷都在憤怒的時候我必須要老實的講上一屆的考試院難辭其咎上一屆的考試院難辭其咎沒有把他們該做的事情做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
230.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
249.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
導致到2024年的時候我們竟然要在國會裡面透過人事同意權的審查來一一的請教你們支不支持在公務人員保障法裡面制定反霸凌條款這早就該做的事啊邱老師您認不認同我的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
250.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
278.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我想這個發生霸凌的事件是令人心痛的那這個部分既然以前的考試委員有提出來我覺得應該要追蹤應該要追蹤嘛我希望您回去考試院以後好好的追蹤問一下我們考試院的同仁當初為什麼2021年開始2022年開始搞到現在2024年什麼事都沒有做這是我對您的第一點期許跟要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
280.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
309.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
接下來你贊不贊成公務員納入職業安全衛生法這個兩個可能是不太一樣的體系所以你贊不贊成我覺得有保障法公務員要有保障法您是不是知道職業安全衛生法跟公務員保障法這兩套規範規範的密度差別有多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
311.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
334.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我對於職業安全衛生法並不是那麼的清楚我期許喔!被提名人你有機會當考試委員花一點時間去瞭解兩件事情第一件事情是職業安全衛生法的規範密度為什麼比我們公務人員保障法高這麼多為什麼因為它有罰則第二個為什麼這麼多公務員的團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
339.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
368.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們基層的警消希望把它納入職業安全衛生法因為公務人員保障法裡面的保障就不足嘛完全不足嘛才有這麼強烈的聲音嘛但問題是什麼為我們一般的民眾出生入死的打火弟兄們當他們看到一個一個弟兄犧牲了他們自己寶貴的生命發出怒吼的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
369.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
376.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們的政府卻是無動於衷該做的事情一直都沒有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
377.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
402.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
好不容易在去年的時候當整個社會沸騰一場又一場的大火帶走了這麼多消防弟兄的生命他們本來要在凱道集結他們本來要在凱道抗議結果民進黨政府承諾他們我們會修法但是他們的期待又落空了一直到今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
405.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
422.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這個會期我們的立法院沒有把他們納入職業安全衛生法我們把他納入消防法我們告訴這些打火的弟兄說我們在消防法裡面我們設置了一個專章 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
424.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
451.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們設置了消防人員安全衛生防護的專章為什麼要在消防法裡面設置安全衛生防護的專章就是因為等一下我們會討論到的事情是您另外一個任務就是因為現在公務人員保障體系的安慰辦法太糟糕了太糟糕了但是我們的政府又不願意把他們納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
453.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
481.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
職業安全衛生法裡面所以我們的政府承諾他們什麼承諾他們說我們在消防法裡面設了消防人員安全衛生防護的專章這件事情邱老師清楚嗎這個部分我必清楚那這個資訊可能要麻煩對提名人要再回去補足一下因為在整個公務人員保障法的體系裡面我們現在出現了雙軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
484.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
503.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我為什麼說出現雙軌一般的公務人員是用安全衛生辦法但是我們對於消防弟兄我們給他希望能夠有更好的保護所以在消防法裡面設了消防人員安全衛生防護的專章 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
504.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
531.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
但是那個消防人員衛生防護的專章裡面他裡面所設置的什麼他裡面所設置的各種委員會他裡面所設置的防護小組追本溯源還是要回到公務人員保障法裡面那這個我必須要跟邱老師報告這些啦恐怕都是當一個考試委員要去掌握的基礎資訊是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
534 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
562.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
警消的權益必須要好好保護警消的權益必須要好好保護我想整個社會都認同但我們大家不認同的是什麼我們大家不認同的是當現在的這個政府一再的欺騙一再的拖延我們要這些警消的同仁繼續冒險犯難犧牲生命到什麼時候我為什麼說一再的欺騙一再的拖延 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
563.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
592.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
您知道我們立法院在11月12號所修正的消防法我們的總統今天此時此刻今天公告了今天公告了消防法的修正條文但是被提名的你知道嗎我們剛剛所講的消防人員安全衛生防護的專章你知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
593.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
619.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
開始施行了沒有這個具體的細節我並不清楚我跟您報告我們消防人員安全衛生防護的專章我們的立法院當初希望給我們的行政機關方便我相信絕大多數的立委沒想到我們給他們方便他們當隨便 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
621.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
649.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
為什麼我說給他們方便他們當隨意便我這個禮拜我在立法院召開了公聽會這個公聽會的重點就是怎麼強化對於我們警察對於我們消防同仁的保障那場公聽會我直接請教消防署派來的代表說我們現在三讀修正通過也就是今天總統公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
650.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
676.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
要施行的消防法裡面的消防人員安全衛生防護專章當初立法院授權施行日期由行政院決定您知不知道他們決定施行日期什麼時候才要開始施行我跟邱老師說明五年以後五年以後邱老師您覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
678.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
701.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這樣的行政院有負起他該負起的責任嗎我想這個施行日期的制定他可能行政機關會有他的考慮但是警消警消的生命非常的重要所以我覺得這個部分應該要加速應該要加速我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
703.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
723.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
你的聲音我們大家今天的聲音我們行政院院長卓榮泰都會聽到因為如果行政院院長卓榮泰不好好承諾我們立法院三讀通過的針對消防人員安全衛生的防護專章的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
724.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
753.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
既然五年以後才要施行我們這些立法委員修這個消防法的立法委員恐怕都已經不在立法院了施行日期給他們定我們的行政院可以這樣幹我們的行政院可以這樣幹但為什麼這個跟考試院會有關係邱老師你一定或許心裡面會覺得有點納悶 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
755.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
783.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我是要當考試委員我們的行政院消防法裡面針對於我們打火英雄安全衛生防護的專章他們目前的計畫要五年以後才施行跟你有什麼關係我跟你直接報告為什麼會跟你們有關係當這個專章在正式施行以前針對有關於消防人員的安全防護請問要適用什麼辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
786.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
809.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
公務人員的保障法公務人員保障法19條寫得非常抽象非常抽象沒有辦法具體的落實沒有辦法具體的實踐也沒有定任何的罰則公務人員保障法19條如果有用的話我們今天沒有必要站在這邊討論這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
812.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
837.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
問題在哪裡在公務委員保障法下面所授權的定定的是公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法您知道這個辦法幾年沒有修了嗎十年沒有修了在過去這十年的時間當中啊台灣的公民社會各式各樣我們錦霄的同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
839.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
865.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
要求要修安全衛生防護辦法我第一次在立法院服務的時候2018年那時候發生了大火很多消防弟兄走了我們行政院人事總處我們考試院的保訓會在那一屆的國會承諾要求安慰辦法現在已經是2024年 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
867.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
889.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
從第9屆的國會到第11屆的國會安慰辦法一條都沒有修過掌管安慰辦法修訂的是哪一個機關邱老師知道嗎是哪一個機關掌管這個安慰辦法的修訂應該是群聚部吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
891.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
919.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
是保訓會沒有關係啊但是保訓會通過的安慰辦法最後還是要誰通過考試院院會嘛所以考試委員責任重大不是只有考試還有公務員的保障我們的考試院從2018年到2024年自己可以修的安慰辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
920.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
947.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
不需要透過立法院立法院早就授權了可以整整十年沒有修邱老師你可以接受嗎我想委員的關切如果有這個機會我會盡量協助考試院的同仁盡快把他的法律修訂好我希望你如果出任考試委員不是只有協助考試院的同仁恕我直言強力要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
949.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
977.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
強力要求考試院的怠惰過去這幾年所釀成的悲劇從安慰辦法下面的消防人員到公務人員保障法下面職場受霸凌的公務員這不是都是活生生血淋淋的例子嗎考試委員重不重要在現行的體制下他當然重要消極的不作為對社會所造成的創傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
980.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
1003.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
血腥斑斑的例子不都在我們眼前嗎是的我現在在給你機會展現決心我想這個委員的關心我不但是會帶回去如果有這個機會的話我也會盡我最大的力量來督促他們目前的安慰辦法最大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
1004.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
1031.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
是完全沒有發責剛剛您在回答我的問題的時候我聽你說出來了代表你有用心有做基本的功課再下一個關鍵的問題我們的保訓會我們的考試院花了納稅人的錢找了台大的教授做了研究報告在2021年的時候就已經告訴我們考試院了 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
1032.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
1061.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這個安慰辦法沒有罰則根本沒有用你贊不贊成修改公務人員保障法增訂法則這個在我們院長的被提名人他有做出這個宣誓就是我們將來會盡快來提出保障法的這個修正案盡快多久我記得他承諾是下個會期要提出來下個會期都要提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
1062.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1090.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以如果你也進入考試院的話你會配合一起完成這個承諾是嗎我會盡力從2002年開始我們的國家的考機制度大概一直延續到現在甲等75%乙等大概25%丙等鳳毛麟角丁等非常罕見 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1091.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1117.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
整個大的picture是這個樣子針對現行的考機制度假等的人數比例不可以超過75%您覺得合理嗎這個有非常多的討論歷年來曾經也有調整過我知道相關的討論我都拜讀過了我沒有要考求老師我直接問你的立場你認為合不合理我覺得這個部分是可以討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1120.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1147.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
當然可以討論也討論了非常久我現在在請教你的立場你認為合不合理我還是覺得說這個部分是應該要大家有個共識因為很多的情況每個機關的這個負擔的程度其實不太一樣75%是不是過於僵化是不是在追求形式上面的公平這個是大家質疑的第一件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1148.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1173.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
但我要告訴邱老師跟您報告的是這已經不僅僅是不是只有形式公平的問題這可能造成了連形式上面的公平都做不到為什麼我這樣講來看一下我從2017年開始追蹤嘉義餅丁嘉義餅公務人考機的制度來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1175.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1201.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
結果檢認的家等以上超過95%現任的家等以上82%委任的最低階的公務員差不多才是到75%他出現了一個很清楚的圖像關接越高啊家等比例越高啊被提名的人覺得公平嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1203.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1231.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
很多這個評論都是提到說考機是不是只講高官所以我想這個部分其實是我們要仔細的去面對目前的考機制度跟我們的文官體系它可能存在兩個最大的問題一個是勞役不均一個是這樣的考機的結果我希望你有機會到考試院服務要大刀拓斧的改革可以嗎是好 謝謝 |