| IVOD_ID |
15767 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15767 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-26-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-28T08:31:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-28T13:23:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:51:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685a91999d46b611e442042dc10dca826773be8d109af184be42383779c3f3e87515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進作法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就「出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
三、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結案18案（報告事項）。【第18案，如經復議則不予處理】
【專題報告綜合詢答】
【3月27日及28日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:02 - 13:23:00 |
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二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告 |
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1874.936 |
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1880.042 |
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二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就、「出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討會議 |
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1891.937 |
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1895.198 |
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告並備質詢。三、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案總共18案以上專題報告並採綜合詢答。 |
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1919.431 |
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1943.493 |
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現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員蘇清泉委員陳昭芝委員廖偉翔委員盧憲一委員林月琴委員王振旭委員介紹今天列席的官員衛生福利部部長薛瑞元薛部長 |
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1946.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1964.37 |
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衛生福利部政務次長李立芬、李次長社會救助及社公司司長、蘇昭如司長心理健康司、陳亮宇司長綜合規劃司、廖坤副司長保護服務司、張秀淵司長醫事司副司長、劉玉京副司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1976.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2002.548 |
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護理及健康照護師專門委員曾淑芬專門委員會計處張玉珍處長資訊處李建章處長科技發展組紀監劉明勛紀監社會及家庭署署長簡惠娟署長食品藥物管理署署長吳秀美署長 |
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2004.571 |
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2023.308 |
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中央健康保險署署長石崇亮署長疾病管制署副署長曾淑慧副署長教育部政務次長林明玉政務次長終生教育司司長李玉娟司長 |
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2024.813 |
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2044.134 |
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行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員廖玉琳專門委員我們現在進行本日議程報告事項處理113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結案18案請一併宣讀 |
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2045.035 |
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2063.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
報告事項處理衛生福利部含為中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結案書面報告18案一、衛生福利部決議一第一目公費生培育預算凍結案二、衛生福利部決議二及三第二目科技業務預算凍結案三、衛生福利部決議五 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2064.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2086.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
之七、第六目保護服務業務預算凍結案四、衛生福利部決議八至十二第八目醫政業務預算凍結案五、衛生福利部決議十三第九目心理及口腔健康業務預算凍結案六、衛生福利部決議十四及十五第十目護理及健康照護業務預算凍結案七、衛生福利部決議一四九第十二目綜合規劃業務預算凍結案 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2088.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2101.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
八、疾病管制署新興傳染病及流感大流行應變整備及邊境檢疫計畫預算凍結30萬元九、疾病管制署肺炎防制經費至業務費預算凍結300萬元十、疾病管制署建構智慧防疫新生活行動計畫之資訊服務費預算凍結5%十一、食品藥物管理署決議一至三預算凍結案十二、食品藥物管理署決議四預算凍結案 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2114.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2132.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
十三、食品藥物管理署決議五、六及二十一預算凍結案十四、中央健康保險署決議一至四預算凍結案十五、社會及家庭署決議一、一般行政預算凍結一百萬元十六、社會及家庭署決議二、推展身心障礙者福利服務預算凍結一百萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2133.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2145.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
十七、社會及家庭署決議三十三、強化社會安全網織業務費預算凍結百分之五十八、衛生福利部決議四、社會救助業務預算凍結案宣讀完畢有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案總共18案,有異議?有有齁,好那,呃,你要先,好好,那蘇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2167.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2177.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
第三、第十一、十二、十三、十五、十七我們有意見所以現在是讓主席來請大家是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2179.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2194.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
詢答完畢之後來這幾項主項來討論還是要現在就來討論?那我們是不是先休息五分鐘那衛福部這邊跟委員溝通一下好不好那我們現在先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2574.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2579.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
好,那現在繼續開會那針對剛剛這個針對我們衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案總共有18案那國民黨委員剛剛有異議那現在溝通之後不知道有沒有結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2604.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2610.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
主席好,我對第三案跟第17案 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2632.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2660.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為目前事實上兒少的那個上網的這個問題本來性剝削這個問題就還蠻嚴重可是現在如果要把錢凍結的話基本上就是沒有辦法執行而且兒少現在已經面對到這樣的一個風暴裡面可是現在如果要凍結預算的話讓他沒辦法執行的話那是不是我們接下來又還是會因為兒少上網產生傷害之後我們再來講再來這邊檢討所以我覺得這個可能要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2661.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2666.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
二、邀請衛生福利部部長：一、邀請衛生福利部部長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2687.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2690.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我們今天就是在討論社會安全網那我們知道那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2716.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2742.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
要做的事情可多了昨天我去參加全國社工表揚我很感動所以社工這塊是要鼓勵所以你剛剛講3跟17就我沒有意見要通過但是食藥署這一塊去年淡的問題那些進口淡的問題我本身去到 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2743.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2759.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那個廠商去到工廠去看那他們的怨言是很多很多所以食藥署做的是不落實而且茶廠也查得不好所以11、12、13、15嘛,都是食藥署的檢部那食藥署這一塊我要請問我們黨籍的委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2773.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2774.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
11、12、13、15動一半喔那個林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2804.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2815.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好啦好啦,那就11、12、13啦,動一半11、12、13其他就動,謝謝好,那剛剛針對這18案當中齁,其中其中這個11、12、13動一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2838.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2838.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2883.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2892.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
好那不然這樣好了啦蘇委員就呃剛剛我們這個國民黨的委員這邊有意見嘛齁那就針對11案、12案、13案就擇期繼續處理好不好可以嗎齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2899.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2920.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好,那就則其處理,就是針對11、12、13案就另外則其處理,那其他的都同意動之並提報院會好,好不好,好,那就先這樣子,好,謝謝好,那接下來請衛生福利部薛部長就本日議程併案報告,時間10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2931.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2952.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
主席、各位委員、女士先生今天是大院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開的全體委員會議本部呈邀列席報告深感榮幸今天就這個社會安全網缺失檢討及具體做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2953.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2972.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
以及出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟提供的檢討報告提出專案報告另外還有一案就是剛剛主席處理的這個113年度單位預算凍結案很謝謝各位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2981.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
3003.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
有關於第一個部分社會安全網缺失檢討及具體做法的專題報告這是在上個禮拜一的時候這一個也是貴委員會提出的一個要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
3004.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
3026.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
本部也到場做了報告這個題目的確是社會安全網缺失檢討及具體做法並沒有指明是要對這個虐童案來做檢討但是本部就是說基於當時發生了這個出養童遭虐致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
3027.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3042.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以就做了一個補充的一個報告,檢討報告當然在時間緊迫的情形之下,就是說內容並不多所以國文會認為說對這個報告是不滿意,所以退回 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3045.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3074.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們這一次就整體來做了一個補充不過因為題目仍然是在社會安全網缺失檢討及具體做法所以我們在這一次送到貴人會的書面報告裡面其實還是針對這個題目來做一個比較主要的敘述出養童遭虐致死案件本部的檢討我們也提出了一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3075.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3101.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
在書面上有一些做說明行政院在107年合定強化社會安全網第一期的計畫是強調以家庭為中心、以社區為基礎的服務模式執行的成效,我想這一個篇幅是比較多的所以請各位委員享用書面的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3103.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3123.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
立即於第一期基礎,選任在110年核定第二期計畫,強調是跨網絡、跨體系及公司協力的合作,並持續佈建服務據點、充實人力、拓展服務資源。到112年底,社會福利服務中心已經佈建156處,兒少保護區域醫療整合中心也佈建11家, |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3129.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3141.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
社區心理衛生中心也佈建48處精神障礙者協作模式服務據點也佈建36處地方政府各類專業人員禁用人數達5,452人執行成效也請詳閱書面資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3148.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3170.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
未來將持續深化跨網絡的合作,落實一組折多協力服務的概念,精進教育訓練,提升專業智能與敏感度,積極禁用專業人力,提升9任的醫院,強化中央督導、協助協調與查核的角色,優化資訊系統,並建構總歸戶的個案管理資訊系統, |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3175.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3181.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
並完善重大社會案件檢討機制,中央與地方共同檢討並解決問題,以綿密社會安全網。 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3185.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3200.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第二個部分,今天的報告的第二個部分是有關於出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供的檢討報告的專題報告本部在113年3月12日召開了內部的專案會議3月15日邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3208.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3223.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
專家學者、新北市政府、臺北市政府、兒童福利聯盟進行檢討並要求三個單位提交檢討報告。在3月21日,協同教育部到兒童福利聯盟共同做聯合查核。 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3224 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3232.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
三個單位相關檢討報告及本部延期詳細報告請享用書面資料以下僅做簡要說明根據兒童的查核結果共有7項缺失初養必要性評估嚴謹度不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3244.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3258.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
第二、出養前安置沒有品質檢核機制第三、出養媒合過程沒有納入外部意見第四、出養家庭的服務與支持消極 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3259.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3273.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
第五社工人員缺乏足夠的教育訓練第六督導的機制不一,難以發揮功能第七裁判法人管理內部的監督缺失此外 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3274.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3291.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
而兒童提交的檢討事項著重於整體收出養服務流程與督導管理機制及服務品質的管控因此會再請兒童就自行檢討的內容以及本部與教育部的查核缺失在而提改善的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3292.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3316.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那針對新北市政府提交的檢討報告的審查意見包括第一該府表示與兒童有討論出養必要性的評估但卻沒有任何的佐證資料第二社府中心每個月只有訪視外祖母並沒有去訪視離開家庭的這個案頭但是這都是在脆弱家庭的範圍之內第三 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3319.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3346.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
該府與兒童福利聯盟討論將這個案童由保姆山轉交給保姆市照顧無法依照外租母的期待由保姆山繼續照顧的理由太過牽強也沒有佐證的資料所以這個評估到底是怎麼樣來的只有兒童福利聯盟有提到說因為保姆市缺乏界限 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3347.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3375.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這個是理由是真的是不容易被接受第四針對已開案的脆弱家庭暗童是難以生長於正常生長於脆弱原生家庭那新北市政府應該依現行的法令規定提供安置的服務第五暗童由兒童轉至臺北市政府並安排合作保母提供出養前的安置照顧時 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3376.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3388.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
新北市政府應依循車禍家庭個案跨峽處理的原則,轉由臺北市政府先續服務。新北市政府提交檢討報告的審查意見,包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3395.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3418.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
居託中心的訪視輔導人員訪視時發現實際收託的這個環境居家環境不佳收託地與保姆登記托育服務的地方也不一樣所以該府知緝後依法獻起改善死符規定但沒有看到與未建築與這個檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3420.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3436.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
第二、另外有關現行保母接受委託照顧家外安置兒童,臺北市政府應適用直轄市縣市政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童的處理原則第三、 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3438.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3454.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
該府應依本部訂定的重大兒童及少年虐待事件防治小子實施計畫以及該府制定的重大、處理重大兒童及少年虐待事件實施計畫在10日內召開檢討會議,但是卻沒有召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3457.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3478.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
本案被虐兒童原已被接入到社會安全網但仍然發生憾事,顯見在制度設計規劃或落實上能有待加強。中央與地方及民間將共同攜手合作,一起解決制度面及執行面的困境。 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3479.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3494.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
落實所提的各項精進措施,避免類似悲劇再度發生。所以,未來本部會通盤檢視實務面、制度面及法治面的三個面向,提出精進的方向及作為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3496.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3521.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
後續將陸續邀集專家及地方政府工商討論執行的細節﹐並完成相關的行政流程﹐感謝各位委員的指教及監督﹐在此敬致謝誠﹐並請各位委員繼續予以致詞我現在補宣告﹐因為預算的部分已經處理完畢﹐請相關人員可先行離席 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3522.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3525.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
接下來請教育部次長林明玉林次長報告時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3536.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3561.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
主席、各位委員、女士先生今天因邀列席參加貴委員會就出養童遭虐致死案件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供的檢討報告進行專題報告因本次社會重大事件本部與衛部於113年3月22日共同查核兒童福利聯盟文教基因會以下請就本部查核該會 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3563.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3590.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
董事會財務及會務的結果進行重點說明一、財政法院中華民國兒福聯盟文教基金會基本資料兒福聯盟於80年經教育部許可設立目前工作項目包含兒少政策立法及權益倡議、兒少福利宣導與資源開發、兒少保護服務嬰幼兒家庭親子支持服務、托育 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3592.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3617.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
與育兒支持服務、收出養福、兒少培育與資能推廣二、查核結果內部控制層面108年訂定內部控制制度為無專任或兼任稽查人員執行內部集合書面記錄且控制層面未涵蓋所有的行政面向二、董事會層面 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3618.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3636.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
董事均為無極職為支領出席費、車馬費為董事會與公益法人的合作案查有部分董事有應迴避而未迴避之事實董事會第11屆9人一人請辭應盡速召開董事會補選董事令該董事會自110年 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3644.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3670.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
未依章程得設監察人未強化監察制度該會以提案設置監察人人事制度部分一級單位的名稱、職長未鑒於書面規章一級單位的新增刪除也沒有相關的書面規章可供遵循同時執行長跟策略長之分工未鑒於書面規章第四財務層面 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3673.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3695.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
一百一十一年收入六億三千萬餘元其中捐贈收入四億九千萬餘元一百一十一年收支出五億一千萬餘元包含兒少弱勢、一般兒少福利倡議、組織發展、行政事務等 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3697.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3722.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
一百一十一年度支出與人事費佔百分之五十一點二五,服務費佔百分之四十四點二二,年度財務報表經會計師出具無保留意見之查爾報告,財報尚屬可信。結語,公益法人的設立應以從事公益為目的,財政法人董事會為最高監理單位,應就法人內部管理,制度落實執行管理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3723.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3739.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
於財務應用、客尊、從事公益職責、發揮公益效能、教育部已發文則其兩週內就查核缺失事項提出改善報告,督則其遵守法規以上報告,敬請委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3747.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3774.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
有關本日會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘本次會議不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3775.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3776.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
陳昭芝委員發言有請薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3793.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3805.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
委員好部長早部長最近衛福部是多事之秋您多擔待部長請問您還記得新北一個在2017年的一個虐童案秋小妹妹這個事件嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3808.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3829.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
2017年當時年僅4歲的邱小妹她被她過世的時候她全身都是201720172017我知道你還沒上任這個部長但是她當時是全身多處的瘀傷那媒體形容說她在膝蓋的地方右方有一個他們用這個白骨插出不過你我都就是所謂的開放性骨折 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3830.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3847.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
就是被虐成這個樣子當時那個案件也引起很大很大的這個討論那麼根據衛福部的統計資料2017年到2020年大家看看有88位孩子因為兒虐致死其中嚴重的這個虐死是34名 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3848.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3874.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
部長這個數字我們不能把它當數字看這是人命這是兒童而且是被虐死的這個狀況這個是這個是我讓部長能夠在這是衛福部的資料那另外人本基金會他們也曾經接獲很多這個虐童案的案例例如在2017年嘉義某私立這個幼兒園這個兩歲男童被小孩子用被老師用膠帶綁在椅子上 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3876.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3905.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
要不是這個保育員自己把照片上傳我實在不知道他的心態是什麼他自己上傳了所以後來大家都知道了不然這個小孩子不可能出生為自己捍衛自己的權益另外2021年桃園有個小學生被老師就是抓起那個領子重摔在地上所以這個種種都是被報導過的那過去保護司這個司長在接受監察院的這個約詢時有說到重大額虐事件有三成 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3906.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3931.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
沒有進入這個服務體系而且這些小孩子多半是弱小的他們都在6歲以下6歲以下那我們知道6歲以下的孩童其實要進入這個體系不是那麼容易除非說他有進入這個學前教育不如幼兒園、幼稚園等等有機會有機會被這個通報然後進入服務體系但是一直在家裡的小孩他因為沒有接觸外面的世界 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3932.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3945.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
所以大概只有帶出去外面打預防針或是說去看病就醫的時候才有可能有這個機會被通報進入體系那我想請問部長對於這群孩子有沒有什麼方法可以幫忙呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3947.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3961.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
特別弱小的孩子6歲以下的孩子對於這麼小孩子的這個特別是這些小小孩沒有辦法自我保護也沒有辦法自我表達的這種能力也沒辦法進入這個體系困難度對 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3963.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3980.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那有一個叫做六歲以下弱勢兒童的主動關懷的方案是有那個方案但是因為監察委員的報告說能夠進入這個方案裡面只有很少數的六歲以下的弱勢兒童這個涵蓋量很少就是你們可以瞭解一下這個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3982.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3996.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以這個部分才是要請你們多努力這應該是說有一些是沒有通報的含蓋量含數是小的要去鼓勵這個通報通報的問題我等一下再跟部長來做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3997.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4019.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
部長您知道監察院王美玉監委在2021年曾提出一份關於兒童保護安全網的調查報告嗎?它是在網路上但因為量很多我們辦公室就把它這個印出來做成這個版本我想請問部長或在座的衛福部官員你們看過這份報告嗎?這份報告就是關於兒童保護安全網的調查報告2021年王美玉監察委員請問部長知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4025.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4041.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我知道有這個調查報告,那內容我沒有去看那如果你們看過這份報告的話,我覺得你們也會覺得很熟悉,為什麼呢?因為當中今天許多內容,跟您今天衛福部報告的內容幾乎都是講一樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4042.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4059.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
也就是說監察院在2021年提出的這個額下保護安全網的漏洞有哪些如果衛福部當時有用心看這個報告而且針對這個漏洞去做一些檢討改進或許不會發生那麼多悲劇部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4060.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4089.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我們來看左邊這個數字其實這幾年每年都有兩位數字以上的兒虐致死兩位數字小小生命來不及長大就離開其中為通報的件數在右邊這個藍位戰率還蠻高的你看2020年有41%他是沒有通報的沒有通報的比數是一直居高不下的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4090.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4110.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
您覺得這樣怎麼解讀呢?這部分其實就是說剛剛提到沒有進入體系的很多都屬於沒有被通報的那沒有通報的大概是兩類,第一個是在家內親屬之間的,比方說父母親或者是同居的親屬所家的這一個所撕裂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4111.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4132.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那另外一個像保姆的這個部分的話基本上它發生的可能性沒有被通報是比較少除非像這一次的凱凱你提到保姆你上次我們在討論的時候你同意保姆是就是所謂的這個實際關懷者嗎這個定義很重要保姆保姆的部分所以在保姆的這個部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4133.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4154.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
如果他是日拖的,那小孩子回到家還家長可以看得到,但是如果全日拖的話,就會看不到。但是部長,因為看到這些數字還是很難過嘛,所以說基本上我想,基本上我們這個安全網還有很多破洞,我們對兒童的保護還是不足,我想您應該會同意嘛,我們還是要繼續想辦法努力嘛。當然當然。 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4156.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4181.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這也要鼓勵社會上能夠有更多雞婆的人對於這個可疑的案例來做這個通報不然的話像說家內這一類的就變成很多就是變成A數通報比率大家可以看到一直也是居高不下的部長前幾天你們公布當然剛剛也做一些報告凱凱秀保母孽死的結果報告裡面有其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4182.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4209.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
重大的缺失你剛才念過出養必要性的評估嚴謹度不足出養前的安置品質沒有檢核機制社工人缺乏足夠的教育訓練然後其實這幾點在王美玉監察委員她都提出來了耶所以我一直在想說王監委這份報告在2021年其實對社會安全網做了非常系統性的盤點跟指出這個缺點所以我有去對比我有對比就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4210.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4236.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
衛福部的報告跟這一次的就是說過去的這個監察委員的報告關於督導制度服務品質社工訓練其實這個都提了我想說因為這個時間有限其實這個是有人已經提出這個報告了但是如果當初大家願意用心去了解也相信這樣的報告去做其實我們可能還可以避免這個很多的這個悲劇當然其中我要特別再提一點就是說其實社工是包山包海的 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4238.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4266.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
社工其實老實說某些時候也是蠻成為脆弱的一群那衛福部也要積極解決這個問題所以再次強調部會如果之前能夠多用心一點其實我們可能可以減少一件或更多件的悲劇部長您之前有提到說這幾年通報次數增加其實有人說這個是網路可以通報還有說是求救的意願加民眾是提高的我同意通報很重要但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4266.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4290.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
他不是解方,這個是我是引用一位這個擔任過加防中心的總督導表示他說強調通報其實只是簡化問題的本身讓政府看起來似乎是有在做事但規避了這個社會結構的資源問題所以第一線公司、社工事都知道通報本身就是不能夠解決所有的問題那以美國家來說,如果我們讓社工事都一直在這個花花時間在調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4291.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4317.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那這個讓社工皮皮斌斌也讓他們有花時間真正進入需要在兒保體系真正需要協助的這個家庭因為整個社會對於社工師的專業是很肯定的但是他們需要這個協助資源也是必要的那衛福部目前是希望說訪視率提高這個沒有錯但是你要知道他們的訪視率在第一線遇到哪些困難比如有些人他到訪視被拒於門外那這時候公權力怎麼來幫忙呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4320.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4335.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
如果他們第一線遇到的障礙我們沒有辦法克服,我們增加訪視率,他又進不去那個門內,那我們需要去幫忙做一些不管用空氣或其他的方式來幫忙他們那不好意思看一下這個圖,這個圖其實上次我在醫學中心,下面一張圖,這個當然在這個保護師有做,說整個經費,整個經費是往這個所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4343.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4368.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
四級預防跟這個基礎的這個初級預防的這個經費是往這邊挪動超過七成不過因為專家學者還有很多第一線的感覺是不太一樣的那我們在初級預防要做的努力還是他們認為是在社會安全中缺席了那當然這個包括我念一下學校教育局輔導諮商體系還有精進的空間有關地方家庭教育中心沒有發揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4369.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4393.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
預防家庭問題的功能還有公共衛生體系跟醫療體系沒有能夠欠缺這個預防角色部長真的是跟您我的專長一樣我們疾病就是在預防重於治療那我們防止小病變成大病這個是從源頭來處理其實是更好能夠去有更好的結果所以我們在整合的部分也是要做一些努力最後我想說期待衛福部的同仁們是不是可以將心比心 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4393.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4418.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
則無旁貸我們來做一個整體的跨科室的整合那大家有做到位繼續做沒有做到的話就是上檢發牌繼續做那如果需要增加經費我相信衛福組的各位委員能夠了解幫助你們來做改進好嗎就是說大家一起在努力不要再讓這些悲劇能夠繼續發生好嗎謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝陳昭芝委員接下來請林淑芬委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4426.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4429.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
主席,我是不是再請我們部長?請部長。委員好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4443.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4459.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
今天的這個議題很重要不過還有更緊急的事情就是我們這個保齡查釋的這個重大的食安的問題要就教於你你知道現在到底是有幾個個案、幾個死亡、幾個加護病房嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4460.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4481.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
目前正式有通報有大概13位但是昨天晚上還是今天早上又多了一位是在台南的你知道我覺得我代替所有台灣的消費者來這裡講一句話我覺得看到這些新聞這重大的這個食物中毒事件對我們來講我覺得太冤枉了對人民來講我們每一個看到這些死亡和重傷的人來講都覺得太冤枉了但再來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4489.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4515.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
我覺得還有一個很大的感觸是為什麼這麼重大的食安中毒事件竟然是透過媒體爆料啊沒有 這個還是有通報系統我告訴你整個案件哪些現在的13例有哪幾例有幾例是看到新聞才自己來主動通報哪幾例是在新聞露出26號以後才通報這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4517.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4534.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
這大概用時間去切是不太對,但是不是,這個當然是因為包括後面自己主動來通報都是說我是看新聞才知道我是看新聞然後包括醫院都說我們看到新聞以後才回溯才通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4535.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4545.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
第一個是因為有這個第一例死亡的友人3月25號的晚上半夜將近10點然後新聞露出說因為去元柏吃了寶林茶室的這個用餐以後急救然後回天罰數25號的半夜 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4559.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4586.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
然後26號所有的新聞才露出然後呢很多人看到這個新聞露出以後才說我的症狀也是我的症狀也是我的意思是說如果你沒有看到這個新聞露出即便你們3月24號新北市、臺北市政府都接獲通報了24號地方政府都接獲通報了因為死亡的個案有通報上去嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4587.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4608.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
但是因為那個死亡的個案很清楚的知道他的友人很清楚的知道我們是去原百吃了保齡的這個素食的龜仔條之後馬上有急重症出現所以他個人很清楚靠著這個個人很強的維基意識通報了市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4609.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4632.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
然後新北市才通報臺北市但我是要講說這個都建立在這一個個人我以為那個是醫院通報的我說好那沒關係我現在要告訴你說現在這個看新聞才知道我們很多人主動通報是看新聞的如果不是看這個新聞的話每一個個案在醫院裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4633.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4661.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
自己上吐下瀉然後呢這個常衛性包括第二名死亡的陽性老翁他醫院還認為他是諾羅病毒感染他本來判定他是諾羅病毒感染如果不是有這個新聞露出的話大家會不會在各自的醫院裡面都覺得這個健康問題是來自於個人因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4662.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4677.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
如果沒有這個新聞露出即便你們24號醫院通報地方政府掌握都沒有新聞露出的話根本就不知道這個原因是來自於保齡的素食歸押屌的事件啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4678.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4698.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們可能不能夠單純用這樣簡單的去講,因為本來每一個這種中毒事件的話,它會如果不是集體送到一家醫院去的時候,它本來就會分開了對,你講對了,因為不是集體,因為它是大型百貨公司,所以不是一個小社區裡面的小吃攤 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4699.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4720.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
大型百貨公司來自於消費人口來自於可能是全台灣的所以他的狀況一發生送到全台灣各地的診所大醫院每個個案如果不是因為新聞露出你會覺得這是個人健康問題直到新聞露出才會發現說這是一個集體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4724.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4733.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這個中毒事件所以就是說個案在可能分散在各個醫院當他一起通報過來的時候我們才能夠知道整個的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4735.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4761.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
二十四號就有通報了但是新聞露出是二十六號我覺得冤枉在哪裡你知道嗎從十九號用餐二十號沒有個案二一二二三都有拖了五天這個案例是五天這麼長的時間而每一個發病的人都是急性的肝衰竭、酸血、酸中毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4761.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4780.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
五天到新聞露出是第七天19、20、21、22、23第六天有通報第七天新聞露出但是不明顯第八天才新聞露出大家才大量的通報進來連醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4782.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4792.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
的這些第一線的義務人員也沒有經驗然後他們後來透過回溯才發現說你們要求他們要回溯通報嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4794.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4813.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
所以我的意思是說他願望是19、20、21、22、23這五天如果警覺意識高一點19是第一次第一次我告訴你第一要沒有症狀出來要怎麼知道我知道啦但是二十一號就很快啦對啦二十二號二十二號就在ICU裡面的了啦而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4822.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4834.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那個第一例死亡第一例死亡的時候是24號但24號之前就很多個人都在醫院各個醫院全台灣各種醫院嘛但我現在告訴你這個19、20、21、22、23 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4839.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4856.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
五天再加上通報的第六天再加上新聞露出的第八天這時間拖太長了明明就很早就發病可是因為在各自獨立的醫院大家都沒有看過這種病沒有這種意識然後現在我要再問你有檢驗方法嗎有檢驗方法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4859.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4879.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
目前的話是要看檢驗什麼東西,因為目前還不知道你們昨天次長說很像是米酵菌酸中毒對,很像是這一個啦,這可能性最大但是這個米酵菌酸的這個檢驗,因為我們現在沒有標準品所以標準品的購置可能下個禮拜才會進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4881.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4886.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個就是我們要講我現在跟你講說我們對於新型態的食物中毒危機意識很弱你知道中國15年間啊從2005年到2020年齁他們有中毒了188例死亡了85例病死率45.21%而且他們發表在他們的中國食品衛生雜誌有一篇期刊論文2005到2020 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4907.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4929.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
中國的唐昌普·伯克霍爾德氏菌中毒的世界流行病學分析所以他們在裡面累計的報告有188例而且較大級別就是重大的級別的重大事件他的這個就佔了全部188例裡面93.33%160例死亡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4935.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4945.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個85例就有重大級別還有這個死亡人數其實我們要講的是說我要再告訴你喔這邊期刊來講喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4948.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4972.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這個30件,總的30件,嚴重了28件裡面有30件裡面有14件有檢出唐昌普、伯克、霍爾德氏菌8件驗出米酵菌酸28件由穀類發酵製品引起2件由木耳引起16件沒有檢出唐昌普、伯克、霍爾德氏菌 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4973.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4981.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
十六件,三十件裡面有十六件檢驗不出來他們是依據症狀去回推的我們現在是連檢體都沒有,連菌都沒有了台灣從來沒有發生過這種現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4993.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5003.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
中國有這樣的一個報告但是這一個可能發生問題的產品大部分就是米或者是椰子我們沒有從中國進口 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5005.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5027.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
對現在中國也是因為衛生條件太差的製造條件才發生這些事件而我們是在一個大百貨公司裡面所以你讓人家很焦慮啊再來就是說這個案件我們要大家過去就沒有發生過沒有危機意識然後一發生也沒有辦法調查原因因為連簡體都沒有也沒辦法比對 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5028.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5054.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
標準品沒有啦,檢體現在是有收集啦檢體有,現在是那個樣本標準品標準品沒有因為沒有這個菌種,這個唐昌柏柏克氏菌不是這一個,是主要是那個米效菌酸的標準品也沒有因為如果說加熱之後可能那個細菌是死掉了,但是這一個酸還在 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5054.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5080.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
好,我現在再告訴你一個結果發現這些這些不管是死亡或是在家務病房或普通病房或自行出院的現在我們靠的是責任險結果他的責任險過期了去年10月過期了你們對全台灣所有的食品業食品營業者這種責任保險制你們有在追蹤嗎?有在看他有沒有過期了嗎?有沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5081.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5084.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就 «出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告》 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5111.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5113.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
因為這事實上也是這一家他準備這個月就要停業沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5122.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5141.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
去年10月不管他準備不準備要停業,從去年10月責任險就過期了。對啦,這個應該也是需要去糾正。沒有啦,你們都不要說我們衛福部裡面是不是有些機制,法官的機制沒有好好的去,有什麼好的設計,未來還可以預防。 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5145.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5147.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這次的確是有這個問題,為什麼這樣承認會這麼困難呢?沒有問題嗎?你們衛福部裡面的人?制度面有沒有問題?執行面啊?去查核、定期查核這些食品、餐飲的這一個行業的話,要去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5166.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5175.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
所以不管如何雖然是地方政府、中央政府都一樣對人民來講都叫做政府你如果告訴我們每一個消費者你的消費如果出問題了每一個廠商我們對他要求的這個保險責任都仍然可以接住你 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5195.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5212.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我們想要聽這個第二個現在未來這種流行病學上的或者是罕見的這些中毒事件的我想會越來越多這種樣態會發生但它非典型的症狀在食物中毒裡面非典型那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5213.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5230.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
大家都是個案自行看到新聞去通報居多居多啦那我們在制度面沒有說檢討一下如果第一線看到發現奇怪的非典型症狀的大家要一個通報機制免得 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5231.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5253.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
一個小吃攤在一個社區抓得到一個學校食物中毒很明顯可是這一種樣態今天這一種樣態未來在制度面要怎麼會知道如果不是爆料大家這個還以為是個人健康出問題這種事情未來怎麼樣可以大家可以接住不是透過爆料 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5255.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5283.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這個還是在通報的整合啦這個部分的話可能還是有那什麼狀況才要通報?什麼狀況不用通報?醫院是24小時,如果有兩個以上同時發生的就要通報那也要同一家醫院有兩個啊?對對對,或者是說有死亡的案例的話就應該就要通報你要到死亡,到現在為止13例裡面兩個死亡還不同醫院欸?不然你沒辦法啦,每年夏天你怎麼知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5284.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5304.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那整個案例一大堆案子……我們這種即興的集體中毒的風險,它的通報機制,你要設計一下吧,也要檢討一下啦。所以這一個部分就是怎麼樣快速的把這些分散的個案能夠資料的集中…… |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5304.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5316.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
所以這個制度面執行上有必要去檢討啊,透過這個悲劇,然後我們要從這個失敗挫折的地方,有缺失造成人命傷亡的狀況,我們要學的教訓啊。是啦,這當然有必要再進一步建立。 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5324.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5342.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這不是太冤枉嗎?看到新聞爆料露出了,我們才知道不是個人健康問題,是因為食物集體中毒。這也是,如果沒有這個新聞露出,你再叫自己回去是自己的問題。這也太冤枉了。對啦,責任險的部分,趕快想想看怎麼處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5347.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5350.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
主席 各位官員早安 請部長還有署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5370.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5395.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
請薛部長還有署長,是吳署長嗎?還是?吳署長,對,吳署長不好意思,吳署長我也是接著要問林淑芬委員剛問的全國人民很關心而且大家看到新聞會很難過這些民眾他只是為了健康而去速食的餐廳吃飯現在又有一個快訊,台南有兩個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5396.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5418.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
二十一號吃兩個人現在送入急診室啊所以剛林委員講得很好啊非典型的症狀各位發公文到各大急診室了嗎有有我們已經有發給各個各大醫院就是要要求說他們注意有這種對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5419.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5426.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
臺北市現在24、25號前往稽查11號數27號才開始稽查26對你覺得這樣查到東西嗎24、25大家已經因為查的東西不一樣是查的東西不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5438.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5461.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
在臺北市地方的話是因為有食物中毒它有一個SOP就是要去查人、廚師還有環境這些通通要去做檢查但是它是一般的食物中毒的SOP這一次是我們匯集了怎麼越來越多的這些個案當然我們知道那知道說這個案件並不單純所以我們在26號就 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5465.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5465.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
處長在新聞稿上說 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5480.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5496.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
因為這個生物檢驗需要兩週嘛所以我們兩週以後才會有結果但是呢當天抽檢到的就是六、七種食材請問經過這樣子的事件你們有一個嚴格的要求他們要如何留下餘財嗎因為你當天過去說他們都沒有餘財嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5501.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5514.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這個是本來都有規定但是也要看情形因為在餐廳有時候他沒有非常嚴格去去follow這樣子的規則這樣你們做的比營養午餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5522.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5534.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
因為一個一個炒出來的東西,他不是大鍋就炒一個,然後來的話就分配,但是每一個要去做,每一個要去做,然後又要留樣,這個對太困難了 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5536.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5559.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
可以理解但現在因為每天的個案一直在增加而且這些人是非常非常無辜的有人已經要捐肝給家人等等的也有金融圈的高材生所以希望我們可能持續保持關注然後持續檢討謝謝署長對這當然因為目前目前還是要確認到底是什麼東西引起來的這個是首要署長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5564.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5571.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
在這次提出來的檢討報告部長您有講到說您針對三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5573.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5594.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
北市府、新北市府、兒童覺得他們沒有橫向溝通但其實您就是大家長您要制定規則讓他們做好橫向溝通好,你說兒童的出養必要性嚴謹度不足媒合過程未納外部意見社工人員缺乏足夠教育訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5595.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5615.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
但是我們看你提出來104年12月18號提出來的修正辦法明明就在第八條第五款第二項還有第八項收養人條件與收出養人評估及審查方式還有其他與推動收出養媒合服務有關之內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5616.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5640.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這些都是你們委託的機關給你們看過程序給你們審查過你們合可的他才可以執行這樣子的業務啊委員這兩個程式的問題不一樣一個是許可辦法就他有這些SOP我們就要給他許可但是實際上的個案來講的話就不是說衛福部逐案去做審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5643.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5658.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
因為你有在裡面提到說他欠缺表單等等可是其實他的表單都是你們看過的他本來就有寫沒有落實有寫有寫但是沒有落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5660.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5681.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那你講到說未來呢你要強化保姆的督導以及管理機制政府要更嚴格規範保姆資格尤其是收出來還有全日托頻率啊還有安置訓練課程較優的薪資待遇這個請問這些東西會列在你的上次提到的保姆專法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5683.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5708.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
不一定會用專法啦但是我們會往這方面去推那你們的方向這個全日托兒保姆你們的方向是會跟一般的保姆有什麼不同嗎他是在照顧安置他是在照顧這些沒有家庭可以的支持的小孩這個如果沒有列入保姆專法你要放在哪裡因為你上次特別講在兒檢法 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5709.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5736.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
在兒權法裡面就會有這個規定我們有訂那個直轄市跟我們報告我們現在已經有訂針對要運用保姆這樣的資源來協助照顧這種需要家外安置的兒童我們有一個處理原則那這個縣市政府應該要建一個pool就是他以後我要委託這些保姆來照顧的時候我要從這裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5737.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5764.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
所以你的意思是說收出養的保姆你要放在另外一個法條然後一般的保姆不是法條他是安置在委託安置裡面那兒權法裡面就有委託安置所以他跟一般家長的日託的規範會不同會不同再來呢這邊有提到說我們會強化脆弱家庭的子女接受安置還有呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5765.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5791.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
幼兒專責醫師制度地方社政主管機關會診名測到衛生主管機關我也想請問從上次討論這個到現在我們地方的衛生局收到各位社政主管機關的名單了嗎?176個我們的名單都有了專責醫師也都有了?出養的裡面小於3歲的是176個 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5793.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5811.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
但是上次我們有提啊脆弱家庭不只是收出養後面也是一樣是我也希望說上次我們討論的那個圖表呢未來我們可以納入社安網第三期如果您要做建制第三期的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5814.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5815.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
建保基金運用辦法您在大年初期農曆年的時候預告要修正結果只給了7天的預告期 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5834.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5845.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
想問一下是什麼事情有這麼緊急要跳過一般的程序因為我們蔡政府105年10月就要求各機關任何法規修正公告期至少要60天 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5847.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5872.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
各位委員報告這一個部分為什麼要做修正就是去年有240億的公務預算撥到健保基金今年有200億撥到健保基金在去年撥到健保基金之後因為我們要處理這個癌症的這個所謂的癌症新藥還有就是像護理人員的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5874.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5876.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
還有另外一個最重要的就是補點子 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5883.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5906.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
就是因為補點子大家很關心所以當時的話就在健保會裡面產生一個爭議也就是說這一個公務預算預注進來的到底要不要算不算是安全準備的一部分這是附會者代表他們主張的但是議界認為說這個是應該跑到總和這邊來所以才能用來補點子 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5910.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5928.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
這個爭議就沒有辦法解決所以我們必須要處理這一塊公務預算補進來的那要怎麼樣用所以我們修了這一個辦法但這個不是很符合程序爭議因為沒有人覺得有這麼緊急雖然姿勢體大但您看您臉 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5932.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5952.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
您看你列出來的項目基金用途其實我們明併基金用途一定要寫得很清楚你的基金用途裡面有醫療科技評估、服務審查、全民健保推動相關支出但是全民健保推動相關支出明明就在你的公務預算裡面就編列了28億的預算裡面這個是厭倦的我懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5956.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5965.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
對,可是菸娟前半部是到醫療機構後半部是做這些醫療政策的推動你把他的項目全部都混在一起了 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5969.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5990.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
所以一介會擔心因為你最後呢你這一頁還有講到說之後是由主管機關擬定計畫而且是指定用途喔所以因為是公務預算預註的部分的話其實我們在這個預算的部分的話公務預算的部分就會經過貴院的一個審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5992.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6007.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
是所以之後我們會會詳細的備案所以這個也不會說只不過他不必去走那個健保會的那個機制對但是沒有人會知道最後你要怎麼分配比例就像癌症基金很多委員都很支持啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6008.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6032.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
癌症信號基金大家都有提案啊所以我們就會提計畫嘛如果說在公務預算撥補的時候就已經指定用途那當然就是會經過貴院的審查大院的審查因為你已經有癌症基金你就癌症基金就癌症信號基金然後你又把癌症基金混在這個健保基金那個是因為現在的機制裡面我們任何先用健保去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6033.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6062.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
因為你如果還要再成立一個基金的話那就有財政紀律法的那些相關的問題這恐怕不容易成立啦就獨立去成立一個基金你也可以把基金編到你的公務預算講錯了你也可以把新藥開發編到你的公務預算等等但是你讓基層的醫療看到你把這麼多的品項全部混合進來大家會很擔心是不是撥到醫療院所的會被稀釋掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6063.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6064.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
等蘇清泉委員質詢完畢休息10分鐘,現在請林悅委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6091.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6092.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
社安網有缺失,我們要看怎麼來補動? |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6107.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6135.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
所以是不是收出養管理辦法應該要去做檢討了那我們就回來看想問的幾件事情因為你本來就定有這個所謂兒少收出養媒合服務者的許可跟管理辦法那它第三條的第二項明確的是說要經目的事業主管機關同意那如果這個目的事業主管機關是教育部那請問一下社家署有取得那個教育部這個同意書嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6136.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6163.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
他們去跟教育部對應該如果以財政法人來說的話教育部是主管機關我們才是那你有沒有請就他們有沒有拿到教育部的同意書嗎因為你說要目的事業主管機關同意嗎在申請的時候他們有檢討這個教育部的同意書會後是不是提供給我就是說你有的確他目的事業主管機關是同意的下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6168.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6171.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
二、社會福利部部長、教育部次長就 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6181.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6205.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
這個辦法是93年、101年、104年那先問一下衛福部為什麼因為在101年的時候同意文教事業獨獨目前這樣看起來8個機構過去12個也一樣就只有兒童福利聯盟是文教所以先問部長說為什麼是文教事業可以因為他的目的就是不相同啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6206.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6215.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
因為應該是說這是一個歷史的緣故啦那兒童福利聯盟它的成立是早於你兩個部會在管理的時候就會沒辦法通題嘛所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6217.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6239.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
不知道就當初可不可以告訴我當初為什麼會要文教試驗?因為他很早就成立而且就開始有做這一方面的工作那我們在定101年在定的時候就是我們承認說他算是既有的工作做得還算順利所以我們就把他納進來但是他是文教基金的這個沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6240.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6244.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
社工有308人,你對社工的流程、社工的智能這些東西貴部瞭解嗎?你要管理他 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6267.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6293.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
的確啦,它80年成立的時候它是以文教基因會來成立但它涉及的業務是以兒童福利為主我先問說你們自己對社工的流程社工的資能要掌握的話有辦法嗎?可是你是它的主管機關為什麼它還是存在可是它做的都是社會福利業務非你們文教因為你們自己的監督管理辦法也是這樣講它事實上是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6294.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6318.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
要做的事實上是你們跟你們目的事業有關係的可是好像看起來不是啊他只有很少很少的一部分為什麼教育部不去啟動去處理這件事情呢因為加上我覺得次長這邊順便一遍問你這個檢討報告我實在是也是不是很難接受你知不知道他的董事會裡邊有會計師那到底他的簽證報告是這個會計事務所簽證 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6323.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6326.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就 «出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告》 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6344.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6362.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
因為一棟一棟買,然後都買的事實上是比較對,它內湖總部有在五年前買了一棟,將近四億那去年在台中買了一棟五層樓的大概九千八百萬還有基隆還有其他,我想可是這邊都看不到相關的資料說到底整個狀態會是什麼我說社福機構當然為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6369.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6375.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
的確會買房,可是買平房跟買豪宅事實上是不一樣的,所以是不是有沒有針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6376.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6404.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
還有我剛剛講會計師簽證是他自己的董事在簽證還是事實上是有其他人去做簽證的這樣的一個動作然後他的支出雖然董事會沒有可是過去出國參訪這些很多次的這樣子尤其去了可能十幾二十天那這些費用又是誰支教育部到底知不知道如果不知道的話那你寫的這些報告我都不太能接受說那這報告到底講的都好像沒什麼太大問題可是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6406.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6412.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
看到的問題點好像跟你這邊問題點不太一樣所以這個可不可以針對教育部這個報告可不可以下一個針對我剛剛列的那幾點提出檢討報告給我好那下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6423.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6439.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那再問次長有評鑑嗎因為第三條規定財團法人評鑑結果甲等或80分以上的這是衛福部說你要有這樣才可以才可以拿到許可證那請問一下教育部你有評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6441.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6462.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
沒有評鑑為什麼他可以拿到這許可?因為初期第一次的許可他必須要有財團法人評鑑結果為甲等或80分以上所以先問次長有評鑑嗎?沒有。沒有。那就問衛福部,沒有評鑑為什麼他可以拿到許可? |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6464.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6483.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
因為那時候有評鑑那請提出評鑑結果給我我講的是教育部的評鑑喔不是因為教育部剛剛回答沒有評鑑喔對我們有實力查核沒有評鑑對可是這個要評鑑甲等或80分以上所以如果教育部沒有評鑑那請問一下衛福部怎麼拿到那個評鑑結果的就是說有評鑑嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6488.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6512.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我時間有限所以是不是提出你們如果講有就告訴我拿出證據來告訴我說有這個評鑑評鑑結果因為有要80分或評鑑假等那可是剛剛教育部講說沒有評鑑的確事實上基金會文教基金會幾乎都是沒有評鑑所以我不知道怎麼去拿到這個假等或80分以上才會讓他可以履可下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6514.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6532.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
再來就是問衛福部那收出養這個後續要持續拿到拿到評鑑結果才可以繼續拿到許可所以不知道就是衛福部有辦理評鑑嗎幾年我看到是三年要評鑑一次27條是講三年要一次那評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6536.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6558.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
標準跟內容是什麼?因為27條講得很模糊,所以要有一些paperwork的這些資料,所以一樣會後是不是可以提出來為什麼我要你們提出來,來下一頁,108年佩佩案、109年呢,事實上我手頭上還有其他兒虐案那一樣都是兒童福利聯盟,可是再次通過,110年再次通過許可,為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6559.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6576.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
如果他事實上有發生額虐保姆被停權了他帶這個孩子保姆被停權他移送到下一個保姆家結果他繼續可以拿到你許可證為什麼所以可不可以一樣甲等怎麼來的請衛福部提供評鑑報告他告訴我這三個時間序 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6578.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6579.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
接下來請王育明委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6608.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6611.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
謝謝主席主席我們是請薛部長請薛部長委員好部長好部長我要先請教你發生的這個重大的食安事件因為這次我們看到這次事件真的是很嚴重因為到目前為止已經有兩個人死亡又新增一名是台南的已經有五個人在搶救 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6635.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6655.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那目前通報剛剛新聞傳出來的是總共有14例這麼重大的一個死案事件我想問一下部長到目前為止中央這邊有組成專案小組積極的跨部會大家來查緝然後來了解知道原因是什麼嗎因為現在我必須坦白講 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6656.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6684.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所有的人都人心惶惶就是對於外使感到非常的不安全因為會覺得連百貨公司的美食街的產品都出現這麼重大的問題大家在食安上的焦慮跟恐懼我覺得這個是瀰漫在大家的心裡所以作為主管機關中央主管機關是不是可以用最快的速度來釐清那個原因讓社會各界可以安心到目前為止你們有跟法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6685.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6709.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
組成一個跨部會的小組嗎?因為現在法務部、北檢、地檢也都動起來要去查緝,那這個部分你們組起來了嗎?第一個我們26號的時候就由食藥署、疾管署跟北市衛生局、法務部的民生小組叫北檢那邊就開始做這個稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6710.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6729.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
你們是稽查...我的意思是說你們有成立一個工作小組嗎?到目前為止有沒有?先做聯合稽查然後在昨天晚上我們有召集了照顧這些病人的醫院臨床的醫師還有六位的毒物專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6731.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6755.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
還有環境部的化學署還有我們自己集管署、食藥署法務部的法醫研究所一起來討論這個可能的原因是什麼目前的話大概或是一個初步的方向我們要根據昨天討論的方向再去做相關的一些檢測 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6757.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6776.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以到目前為止你們是各自有一些各自進行的事項但是並沒有有一個聯合的工作小組對不對沒有一個名義上的聯合工作小組部長我真的具體我知道我具體的建議這個事情非同小可因為是過去沒有發生而且是一個非常重大的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6776.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6804.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
而且已經衝擊到國人對於食安的信心我認為中央應該跟地方還要跨部會的組成一個聯合專案小組就像你們現在在運作模式這當中還涉及到毒物各項的檢測還有就是解剖的分析還有就是向上去追查這些食物的來源還有很重要的是現在不是只有臺北市有案例最新傳出來的是臺南現在也已經有兩例但是他在同一個地方用餐了對 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6805.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6829.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以表示他已經是跨出去縣市也不只是臺北市所以我認為這件事情這個衛福部應該趕快跟院長呈報就有一個召集人趕快把在這些相關的涉及到的這些部會的人通通都把他摳在一起然後很密集的開會討論一有什麼訊息大家互通有無用一個最緊急的一個狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6831.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6851.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
來因應這次的事件我覺得這個才是正辦我是具體這樣子建議第一個是這一個第二個就是說這次在整個通報的機制上面看起來是大家對於這一類型的中毒案件的敏感度稍有不足即使中國大陸曾經發生這麼重大的這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6853.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6876.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
這個中毒事件但是在臺灣因為過去沒有案例所以在第一時間你看他那個整個時間去其實是拉得比較長的然後他是透過拼湊的方式而不是透過原來衛福部的你的通報機制裡面就是去發現的就是慢慢拼湊起來才發現說哇原來這個都是來自於同樣在一家保齡茶室的這個東西有問題所以我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6877.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6894.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
這一次這樣的一個情況可能衛福部也要去檢討就是說很多就是我們可能還有忽略的那這一類型可能就是過去忽略的現在連這個標準品其實都沒有表示過去針對這一類型我們並沒有做任何的準備這樣子即使對岸有案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6895.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6923.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
所以我覺得這個部分可能你們自己還要再去通盤看一下還有哪些類型可能其實其他國家有在發生但是臺灣我們因為過去沒有我們可能就比較鬆懈覺得說也不會發生在我們這邊但這次的案例我覺得是真的蠻嚴重的因為現在是比較可疑是米酵菌酸那這一個部分的話當然在中國大陸那邊有case發生過但是臺灣沒有而可能產生這個所謂的VA的這些產品事實上我們並沒有從中國那邊進口 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6924.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6942.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
是,但是我們發聲了,所以這就更弔詭了,就是說一定要去探究這點所以只是初步說這個可能性是最高啦米硝菌酸的可能性最高嘛但是還沒有檢驗出來,這個不能說成為…不能百分之百斷定嘛,但是就是他所有的,就是他的中毒的症狀看起來很像嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6944.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6964.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
但是也不排除有其他的可能所以我們其他的考驗還是在進行我希望這個整個中央跟地方用一個比較緊急的重大的態度來面對這件事情而要集合各方的力量這個不是誰的責任的問題是共同來面對這次重大食安事件第三個我要講這次傳出來這個業者他的那個保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6965.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6985.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
他預計他自己那邊要收了,他的保險聽說是沒有保的,那這個部分對於現在已經發生,有的人還在搶救,有的人已經死亡,他將來怎麼辦?他的球場就是沒有保險的情況底下,那這個負責人如果說我沒有保險這麼重,但他賠不出來,那他們怎麼辦?真的很無辜欸。 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6987.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7002.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
所以這個部分的話就是可能要進行因為這個是企業責任的問題企業責任他應該去投保來cover他的這個責任因為按照你們的法令上面其實是要投保的對對啊那他其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7003.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7030.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
現在其實坦白講有個漏洞他預計這邊要關掉的他其實投保期他就沒有到他關掉的那一天他就提前譬如說約到了我10月到了我就關起來但我繼續營業那主管機關也不會知道因為他現在其實是不像你的那個汽車強制責任險一樣就是你投保你要上傳然後你就會知道但是他現在是完全不需要所以其實坦白講你們也不知道你們現在也不知道有多少食品業者他其實在做這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7032.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7044.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
但是他其實是保險已經到了他沒有繼續加保其實都不知道我覺得這個是一個漏洞應該也要好好的去檢討好不好另外一個我要提醒的是那個小林這個他的紅曲毒素這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7048.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7068.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這個最新的消息日本已經死亡4個人了他是慢性中毒他已經死亡4個人了那臺灣其實有些食品的原料都用到他的原料這個也是另外一個很重大的食安事件我不曉得現在我們下架的情況到哪裡這個已經有人跟本辦投訴就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7069.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7073.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7086.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7106.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
現在要求業者發現要下架,民眾如果手上有產品,看起來有點投訴無門,官網打不通,1919說你自己再去打1950,怎麼辦?目前我簡單做個報告,小林的產品直接進來是沒有,但是原料有,原來是兩家進口 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7110.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7137.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這兩家一家叫三核心它底下就在配送給16家的下游業者去做製造產品那另外一家叫何斯特它配送給39家去做產品那其中有兩家是重複的所以一共算起來的話是53家的下游的廠商那這個下游的廠商它自主通報有12家那還沒有通報的有41家 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7139.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7160.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
但是他會自己去做這個下架的一個管理那目前的話大概是民眾會關心的就是說我如果知道的是那我當然是希望是可以退貨那這我們會來要求這一個業者的話因為這個民眾講的他是透過線上購買的 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7163.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7181.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
服務專線打不通這專區裡面其實有這一個相關的有7家他已經有公布出來的這個退換貨的這個機制有專線的電話在處理在我們的食藥署的專網站裡面的一個專區是有的這可以去查 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7183.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7194.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
對,那你現在的1999可以提供什麼協助?你的食安專線打去的話他說我也沒辦法你自己收集證據打1950我們是1919啦,這是第一個那第二個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7195.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7220.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這一個的話如果是有關推貨的話打到1919我們還是會跟請他去看這一個廠商他的推貨的專線是什麼是哪一個我們會轉那如果有爭議呢?廠商沒有受理呢?你們的窗口是什麼?還是19191919會處理嗎?對好要確定喔因為是已經有人投訴他說他就再直接總計再轉1950啊說你自己處理啊1950啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7223.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7232.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
對阿好不好這一個一定是要處理最後今天的議題社安網我要問的是世界展望會的家庭寄養服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7232.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7258.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
他說他要退出顯然在這次事件當中獵物的效應讓有一些機構也開始觀望了開始退出這個保護系統在這樣的一個情況底下你們準備如何因應當機構的服務量減少的時候表示我們有更多的安置兒童他沒有辦法拿到一個最完整的服務因為比較下來寄養的系統是最完整的在目前的安置體系當中那當 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7259.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7282.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個世界展望會他要退出的時候,這個的因應措施部長,你們的因應措施是什麼?他們有可能再回來接嗎?還是就一定是完全不可能的?市長會其實他在很早之前的話就已經說他要退出了啦,不再繼續提供這個所以你們的備案是什麼?但是他沒有要接,但是那個家庭、寄養家庭還在 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7283.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7301.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
所以我們現在第一步比較...因為還有的好像三月就退了喔?對所以我們第一個就是說還是要有人來接手本來在市長會的這一些寄養家庭把他納入他的...都找到了嗎?目前正在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7302.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7325.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
所以還沒找到第二個比較大的問題是寄養家庭的家數越來越大一直在下降這個真的是一個危機以前他們承辦寄養的就一直覺得寄養家庭朝暮不易發生這次事件之後可能有一些人也會退出他覺得風險很高所以我覺得這個事後整個衛福部應該通盤來整理就是說這一些安置系統它到底缺什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7325.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7326.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
謝謝王育民委員接下來請蘇清泉委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7354.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7356.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
謝謝主席,我請部長還有請教育部請林次長我有看到你的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7371.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7389.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我最不喜歡看到的就是大家甩鍋甩來甩去啦那中央、地方要合作啦好好地做啦這件事情三來三去都沒意思嘛委員我幫你報告一下因為你自己玩到北京過半夜 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7391.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7417.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
所以如果說有一個醫療事故,那的確是我們院內錯了第一個當然就是院長會出來道歉但是後面也是要個別去追究責任啊,是不是這樣?所以這不叫做甩鍋通盤的、制度上的有問題的其實衛福部都已經承擔下來了但是現在就要個別的自己本身的業務有什麼問題,這還是要追究嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7418.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7443.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我們中華民國在衛生行政你是最高的上面總統下來就是你了你的powerful希望你堅持下去醫界在醫療體系如果有發生這種問題的話通報系統現在是很暢通的而且是沒有責任沒有追究的就是還鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7445.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7472.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那這個兒少這一塊我是覺得我們也應該像醫療這樣嚴謹一點然後任何人他有發現問題像我們在醫院裡面如果near missing就是幾乎要出問題的near missing齁那這個員工提出來之後我們把危機有化除沒有產生事情這個員工需要獎勵啊給獎金等等等等那我們醫療做得那麼好醫安非安都做 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7474.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7496.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
所以這個通報系統你要讓他暢通嘛我覺得這個我們這個社交這邊做得不夠不夠雖然我們的社工也很努力所以第一個不要甩鍋啦你剛剛有講那教育部我要問你七項缺失補充到次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7499.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7520.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
開罰就罰,改署就改署,我看你好像對那個NGO好像束手無策的樣子咧解散就解散啊,你們在解散學校不是就照片寫給你那你管的嘛,這台早期你那管也很奇怪啊有啦,他主要是內部控制集合能力不夠啦所以我們有令他兩週內要改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7526.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7538.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那很多委員都說 啊 董事長就改 換人就好了嘛 對不對啊 給製酒房額目一新 我的客廳是在經營什麼啦這如果在北市就 印刀就這樣撲下來啦 還可以給燈光 火燈 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7544.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7560.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這個還是除了組織裡面自己的處理方式之外的話如果是要外部的機關去做處理的話還是需要有法源依據啦沒錯那你教育部是它的Origin的督導機構嘛所以你們要強勢一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7563.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7589.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
發生事情,大家都很嚇唬、很衝擊昨天在社、社、社官、全國社官表揚欸,衛福部不錯,總不能打起來,總不能給人家表揚那些人也受到很大的衝擊啊不過昨天看一看,好像還不錯啦,次長你做得不錯啦再來就是說,你在外部、外部的集合你有一直在,在很密切,close follow up嗎?有嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7590.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7618.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
一年一次一年一次第一次喔另外他們內部集合是他委託國內四大會計公司內部做會計帳目的查核你看有人對他的會計有沒有簽章人家一年結餘量兩三他還怕死人家出一年賣像這養社工的人我這養醫療的我都覺得很匪夷所思這不對不對就是不對啦該怎麼做就強勢一點嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7619.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7623.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這事情早就該落幕了,搞到現在,好,部長,3月4號,屏東中秋又發生一個六個月的孩子,那間你知道嗎?你知道齁?這保姆有一個人過世了,上一陣子他CPR,說什麼他吃什麼玩具,一個人說他吃食指針,六個月的孩子來吃食指針? |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7647.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7665.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這個案子的話我們還在調查當中初步的聽到的是說這個保姆照顧了三個小孩在事發當時的話他把三個小孩放在客廳拿去好像是泡奶還是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7666.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7672.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
但是回來就那個六個月吧就有發現說有這種嗆到的這種現象所以他就緊急通知應該是119然後就送醫啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7683.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7703.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
對,他報警察局,警察局就轉119,然後就把他送到那個平基那平基那邊的檢查來看的話,那個時候已經沒有阻塞物,是沒有看到了那也好像沒有看到其他的這一個身上有怎麼樣的傷啦,所以目前的調查到這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7704.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7727.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
所以我是覺得這整個系統都要檢討了譬如說剛剛講說黃毓民講說現在讓你哈嘎現在連NGO是要搜索那出養家庭那些人的訓練跟追蹤他們也覺得受傷但是好的保母是很多但是一兩個出問題整個大家都崩盤 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7728.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7748.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這個一定要把它重新建立好這個是責任重大不過這個那個通報系統我是覺得要馬上建立好不好好那我再講我要問醫療了部長昨天我們在黨團記者會所有那個要電價動漲的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7751.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7768.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
現在各個工協會的理事長來,他們都不好意思上記者會,叫照照相。我覺得他們都說抱歉啦,常常抱歉啦。我是覺得大家都很尊重你啦,包括我也尊重你啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7771.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7772.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
但是我要跟你說的現在醫療院所為了應付家庭稅、護理書、檢驗書、訪小書你自己也說啊訪小書現在晶片業者要求人去因為晶片都要掃描 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7788.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7810.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
所以呢,又過了可能就不是福利署欠,連福祉署也欠,現在現在就在加,那天我們的福利前年會去我辦公室說,要求沒這個,新進員工70萬年薪,資深一點的希望能到100萬,一個月有10萬塊,我說很好,全力支持。 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7811.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7821.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
阿現在就是檢報不跟大家都拖拖拖那你現在本月這個健保要釜底抽薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7823.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7842.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
你有辦法,中通是有機科的,我們的行政院長是公衛,你是婦產科,這個石通良是急診科,我行政院科,我們做那個就把他捕獲起來,這不在困難率啦,你沒有福利抽薪,這太嚴重了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7847.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7854.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
再來,你前幾天給他搞一個掛匯免上限,10年10年去,我在高鐵店頭就有人把我搶了,搶說所請什麼,所謂什麼,你怎麼會到歐北去做掛匯?我說,吼,這是保證歐康環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7871.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7882.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
有人說要去某一間便衣館、特別面所說館會要八百塊我說那不可能的事我當場就說事實上臺灣一萬七千家醫療院所包括診所有調高館會的七百多家 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7889.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7910.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
這700多家全部的條帳都是在縣市政府規定的上限以下所以呢,也沒有人在調也沒有人加調,現在百務其長我們在層級屏東你調看看,你調個五百五,我才能幫你放回手,我告訴你所以我們的助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7911.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7919.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
他的、他跟他太太跟小孩,如果一個人感冒,三個都感冒,一個人流感,三個都流感他說如果去掛看病,一個人掛五百、五百、五百,還不穩負擔,還搖,還不穩,他說一聲就倒了所以用一個掛後悔,而且是辦法就可以改了嘛,搞到我們喜慶營要連死、要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7936.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7964.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
這個...這個...這個...這個...這個...這個...這個...這個...這個...這個...這個... |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7965.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7986.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
走的時候就讓健保國務院殘喘15年,到現在還在持續所以不管男女大家都對他爭你若我看你是可以繼續跟他拚的,這衛生部長太難做了這是苦差事啦,好好的歸我這裡把他 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7989.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8003.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這個真的要拿屋頂了啦這個根本報告我個人有沒有留在位置上這不重要但是整體的健保制度要怎麼樣來做改進這真的是大家一起要來討論的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8005.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8026.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
所以我們現在正在修修這個推這個健保法的修法的草案那也大概有了一個方向這個到時候會一定最後是來到立法院我那天在總知情也跟你還有陳院長我跟他說既然你們把GDP都把長照納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8028.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8055.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那你乾脆就一勞永逸吧我們要以前我第8屆推長照欸長照保險法沒過嘛那過不了啦你要單獨立一個法不可能啦所以你乾脆把長照齁這邊這社工的長照的很多全法納件因為現在長照安養機構的每天都在吃健保的豆腐啊每天在病人機場訪視那個都抱健保每天就在吃健保的豆腐啊所以所以主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8056.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8058.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
大家一起加油啦!好不好?謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8078.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8086.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
好,謝謝蘇清泉委員那現在先更正一下就廖偉祥委員質詢結束休息10分鐘現在請廖偉祥委員發言謝謝主席主席好,那有請我們薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8106.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8126.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
部長你好,4月起這個調漲平均電價11%,一般預期就會引發所有的萬物起漲,那其實現在多方人員都擔心物價漲、電費漲、弱勢族群的租屋可能租金也漲那這種情況之下,會讓弱勢族群可能過得跟雪上加霜 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8126.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8143.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
會讓許多臨時工、打公主可能因為收入不穩定無法支應房租及其他生活費用最後只好被迫流落街頭所以其實我這邊是想要建議政府是不是應該趕快修改我們的設救法 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8144.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8171.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那看用什麼方式用實際收入認定的社福資格我想才可以真正反映我們這個貧窮人口的生活現況但是因為目前我們受限於社會救助法的資格沒有獲取社福資格的貧窮族群其實這一群人我們就先姑且叫他叫做沒有救助資格的貧窮族群我想他們就是在這一波會受到影響更大的一群人不曉得部長是不是也認同我看你平平點通也應該是認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8174.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8189.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
目前社救法正在討論當中那可能會有一個新的版本會出來剛剛委員提到那是叫近貧就接近貧窮的那一類的族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8190.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8215.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這個部分的話未來是否可以納到社交法裡面的中低收這個就是看那個標準我要講的事情是你現在講叫做淨貧啦其實他就是貧窮啦其實就是啦因為因為我要告訴你現在全臺就是有低收入戶大概是10年來平均14萬戶嘛對不對所以現在波動是不大可是其實從臺大社工系的這個名譽教授鄭麗珍的專業估計這群隱姓貧窮族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8218.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8218.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8235.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8253.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
甚至這批百分之六的我們的國民他們就是其實就是低於我們政府定義的貧窮線那他又因為沒有辦法取得這些社會福利、醫療費用減免一旦這些生活支出提高了我覺得這批這乾扣人是真的有在這裡就很多所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8254.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8275.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我想要問說在這次的電價調漲你們有沒有去預料這件事情有沒有去評估這個事情因為我不希望說像王梅花部長說什麼僱主在半夜來作業可以降低電費這種不食人間煙火的話講出來我們在今天這一題我就是想要告訴你這個事情是真實存在我想替他們發聲所以包含家福基金會執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8277.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8298.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
他就說其實早期說不具中低收入戶資格的社福邊緣戶約佔兩成可是這幾年都跑到三成多了那這一群弱勢族群他是沒有所謂的學雜費減免、租屋補貼啦他找的房子也是很差的甚至是衛生條件安全都不行他就是要勢必要犧牲他小朋友的受教的權益喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8298.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8325.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
所以這幾年的通膨嚴峻加上現在又漲工資甚至當然你們說常常調漲這個基本工資可是它其實也墊高了這個低收入戶的申請門檻那就是換句話說我覺得現在這樣子的社救網它的網的這個洞好像是越來越大其實會很難開始把這些人牢牢接住所以我想這個在通膨和這個生活成本和申請補助都提高了雙重打擊之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8326.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8343.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
他們可能如果他們一生病了他們可能連那種最基本的醫療費用負擔不了、他的膨帶負擔不了甚至藥水也買不起喔所以我想要提醒部長是你們應該要對這件事情提早來做準備和因應所以您剛剛說社救法這件事情也很希望說你們可以盡快提出版本喔因為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8345.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8364.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
它的門檻相對是比較高所以門檻是不是要儘速把它降低要拜託部長你們可以看到這個漠望世上苦人多少這苦民所苦我希望這一題來跟部長講一下這一個部分的話就如同剛剛跟委員報告的那這一個社救法的這個修法我們已經要進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8365.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8393.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那應該很快會有這個結論然後有版本出來那第二個就是說已經已經進入到設計法的低收、中低收的那我們定期的時候調整他們的這個補貼的時候那事實上都有考慮到了好部長那請你們可以儘速提出你們的這個修法進度可不可以在這個一個禮拜內給本席進度啦對對對進度還有研議你們預計的期程可不可以都給本席好 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8394.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8408.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
部長那下星期一就要調漲電費11%請問這個不利的老人之家、兒童之家、少年之家、教養院等等的電費預估會增長多少?這部分是被排除的被排除了?對,被排除了好,所以今年我看到你們的水電費共編了3463萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8412.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8436.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
也排除那私立的部分呢公部門的沒有那私部門的也排除了這些社福機構的話是有被排除都排除掉了好那這個部分就是要請部長他們你們也來注意一下就是當這個電費一漲的時候其實跟上一題一樣就是這些弱勢族群要把他們考量在裡面所以基本上我們主要的訴求就是電費就不要漲了你們520之前不要亂做這種決定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8438.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8467.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那最後我要來跟部長討論一下國人自殺的現象有逐漸上升的趨勢那我想要請教部長國人的自殺標準化死亡率有沒有達到衛福部預定下降的目標這個目前從委員這邊當然是在111年的話看起來是有稍微又上升一二的統計數字等於說這一個數字是回到疫情前 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8468.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8487.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
部長可是我很擔心一件事喔我觀察到兒少族群的自殺是越來越嚴重喔再看下一張圖喔你看到這個圖表我們可以看到這個各年齡層的自殺率剛剛上一張不好意思上一張上一張就是上一張是全部這兩年在往上跑嘛對不對好下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8490.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8517.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我們可以看到我們的年輕族群15到24歲跟25到44歲這幾年都在往上攀升而且是蠻陡峭的那我們再看下一張下一張的時候這是男性的部分也是符合大趨勢都是在上升的趨勢那再下一張女性的部分你可以看到這個年輕族群的女性走得非常的陡峭紅色的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8518.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8532.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
對不對所以我想要問一下你們有沒有去我很擔心這變成一個趨勢所以我想要請問一下你們有沒有去掌握這個事情然後去研究它背後的原因有沒有跟教育部就是合作如何深入校園或是針對年輕人這塊心腹的業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8536.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8562.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
最後部分要跟我們報告事實上我們就是發現到這個趨勢是這樣所以我們就推出一個年輕族群的這個心理衛生的諮詢的一個方案對 這個部分我謝謝部長我之前有承擔過我覺得這個方案很不錯可是這個量能其實是不夠的我覺得要第一個要持續增加之外你們其實對於校園的部分我覺得你們要再更加的多琢磨其實我們有瞭解到很多狀況是不足的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8563.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8591.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我相信你們也知道頻頻點頭我知道這個跟教育部我們會在攜手合作因為有一部分是在教育部的新服務系統我知道所以我剛剛有講到教育部對但是衛福部也是很主要的單位所以這個部分關於新服務系統我怕說資源是不足所以我們兩個部會會再加上對包含學校的部分你們怎麼樣落實到整個學校都可以協助因為很多都只是納入到所謂的社安網但是很多也被排擠掉那再來我要講的事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8592.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8617.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
部長,自殺防治法的第9條第1項規定,中央主管機關應該擬定全國自殺防治綱領,到行政院核定後實施,我要請問部長定了嗎?這草案已經好了,那可能我們就是會...草案已經好了,可是我要告訴部長,到去年12、23號你們自殺防治的諮詢會,你們第二屆第4次會議報告,就像你說的,還是在草案的階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8618.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8632.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
可是其實他108年就通過了自殺防治法而且他第9條就明定要訂定全國自殺防治綱領現在已經都113年了為什麼要拖這麼久我是不是可以請我們市長來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8634.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8654.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
跟委員報告謝謝委員關心這個議題那自殺防治法我是去年3月上任所以3月上任之後WHO關於自殺防治有全新的作為所以3月到去年12月我們已經又開了4次的跨部會自殺之議會那目前的自殺防治綱領跨部會的會議全部已經好了我們應該下個月就可以報院以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8655.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8684.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
那我要請市長我謝謝你你有重新再講說因為你是上一年三月才上任可是憑良心講這個條例這樣子已經延宕五年多了其實我認為當然你們現在上任了但是你們要更有積極的作為不然我們真的會感到為了這些年輕失去的生命感到萬喜這幾年很非常的陡峭所以希望你們趕緊的做不要讓這個不要讓我們覺得到無所作為拜託謝謝謝謝好謝謝廖偉強委員那我們現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8717.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8726.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9292.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9309.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
現在繼續開會請圖全級委員發言好謝謝主席那請一下我們薛部長請薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9316.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9318.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那這樣看起來是不是有通報疏漏的狀況? |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9339.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9346.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
應該是沒有到三到六天這部分的話我想就是說醫院的通報應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9349.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9375.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
現在的問題就是說這一次的這些案件並不是很多人同時發生然後就到一家醫院而是紛紛在都路敘敘出來的個別的這些病人然後到醫院去那醫院大概每個醫院可能都只有一個兩個的case那這樣子的話在一般來講他不會馬上警覺說這可能是這一個食物中毒的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9375.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9389.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
所以他大概就會針對各案去做治療但是當這些比較異常的案子會通報到衛生局的時候衛生局就逐漸知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9393.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9418.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
因為他這樣子有通報可是照我們現在看這種情況民眾到就醫到通報然後醫院通報到衛生局積查再從積查到檢驗結果我們覺得這個過程感覺有三大漏洞那是不是我們消費者在這一部分他權益是不是會受損到時候萬一有求償等等是不是會對他的保障上會有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9420.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9438.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
以這次的這個案件看起來在通報到說衛生局開始採取行動其實看起來並沒有太大的這個落差可是看起來這個事情好像整體來講看起來通報是很慢那如果說我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9440.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9460.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
你回去稽查的時候像一些小型的餐廳像保齡茶室這些你擱了幾天以後這些食材你去稽查找這個檢體你覺得還找得到嗎?來得及嗎?其實是這樣子這一個保齡茶室它最後一個就是說在那邊禁食最後有被通報的大概3月23 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9462.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9483.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那我們這次回來找得到嗎?找得到那個食材嗎?24號臺北市就進去了所以老實講這個時間並沒有太慢現在只是說這個保齡茶室它本身並沒有辦法說就當時這些客人所使用的這些去做留養 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9485.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9505.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
對,我說那回去找這個檢體,這個食材還找得到嗎?就當時吃的那些已經找不到了,不過它的材料,還有就是說當24號進去的時候,那這些廚師的本身生理上面的一些採樣還有環境的採樣設置可以可是那隔那麼多天了欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9506.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9508.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
因為他這個過程據我們了解你就回去現場環境找到你培養這個菌要一週然後等到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9526.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9550.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
檢體出來大概要兩週的時間對不對一般來講食物中毒的話當然最後的確認要這個檢體培養出來這種確認的話時間會比較長但是如果說從他的病歷的過程這個醫院的處置的等等這些診療的過程的話大致上都可以那我請問一下這個結果他會告知衛生局會告知當事人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9551.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9569.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
衛生局會不會告知當事人一般的食物中毒的話大概就藉由公告的這個情形所以衛生局不會主動告知食物中毒者對不對要看大部分的話是不會就是說他用公告方式說有發生了什麼所以民眾要自己自立救濟嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9570.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9595.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
不是這樣講因為像這個案子的話民眾是已經有這樣的嚴重的中毒的現象他已經求醫了已經就醫了那後續這個問題那個民眾萬一後續針對求償的部分他是要自己找消保官來處理這個問題是不是我們是認為說如果初步研判看起來的話的確是可能要走消保法去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9597.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9620.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
好希望這個因為這個食安問題非常嚴重據我們在瞭解現在我們外面的民眾對於外面這樣一般飲食都造成那麼嚴重的問題你看14個案例2個死亡5個正在搶救之中我覺得這食安問題現在已經變成我們臺灣非常嚴重的問題造成民眾的恐慌所以我希望衛福部針對這一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9622.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9639.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
能夠盡快來處理然後讓這個事情趕快真相大白不然真的是人心惶惶這部分的話大概這真正的原因也就是說造成這一起事件的這個源頭的這一個是什麼樣的毒物這個當然我希望這個問題趕快處理因為我說實在部長從前面蘇丹紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9644.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9668.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
再到這次這個食品中毒問題我們常常以為這個食安五環我都發現都是從民眾檢舉最後事情媒體披露我們才再開始去找這個問題的所在所以我說這個食安五環每次都剩最後一環前面四環好像完全都沒有功能這個不同的狀況必須要去做不同的研判才能夠希望衛福部來儘快處理這個從來沒見過的怎麼去做那個部長我請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9672.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9696.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我們桃園你知不知道桃園現在有幾家醫學中心桃園目前的話是長庚就林口長庚嘛對不對所以林口長庚其實大家林口長庚大家知道林口其實在新北所以我們桃園唯一的一家這一家醫學中心其實是在我們桃園跟新北的交界處那我想請問一下我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9697.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9710.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
桃園市現在230萬人口其實現在只有一家醫學中心其實對桃園這整個醫療資源其實是不足的那我們這次通過三個醫學中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9712.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9732.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那之前我們在2019年的時候陳時中部長跟我們鄭文燦現在副院長當時的市長說不逃機會很大可是為什麼最後這醫學中心當初說不逃機會很大為什麼最後又落空這個是經過評鑑的啦那不逃這一次就是說不勝就是落馬 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9733.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9762.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
當然有它的原因也就是說平健委員在實地平健的時候發現說部桃那邊還是有一些缺失我希望因為這個事情我希望是大家專業的考量因為這個事情在從上一屆就已經在處理這個案子那當初桃園對這個醫學中心大家就非常的期望那我們立法委員萬美玲也有講她之前後來也有提她說感覺之前就是要給部桃 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9762.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9774.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那選前說要給不討結果選後說落空他說這個不知道是不是我們中央在秋後算帳我希望這不是政治考量不會啦 那新竹也是一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9775.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9778.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
臺北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9793.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9816.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
是我們工業聚落而且竹圍漁港、永安漁港、機場、航空城的這個一個重地非常重要的地方都在這邊而且我們的工業區是北部最大的工業區可是這整個沿海都沒有一個醫療大型的醫療院所是不是部長可以針對這一部分能夠幫我們爭取一個地區型的醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9817.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9833.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這部分其實還是仍然要有地方政府這邊做一個規劃也就是說地方要去了解跟調查說如果要有一家醫院那放在什麼地方是比較好我這邊我跟部長報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9833.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9851.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
之前我們大坡角營區那後來已經規劃成為樂活園區那個時候我們衛福部就有規劃長照兩百床可是後來就是遲遲沒有經費下來所以確實是有這個規劃只是衛福部一直遲遲沒有經費有啦 這已經下去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9853.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9875.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
長照部分已經下去了長照部分沒有問題嘛對不對那我想說是不是可以針對居然那邊可以設作長照因為他長照照顧的也不是只有沿海地方因為200床可以照顧很多的民眾是不是可以在這個地方爭取做一個地區型的醫院這要由這個地方政府做了評估之後把案子送上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9875.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9902.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
好那因為我們現在場地有了現在就是請部長到時候我們請地方送上來希望部長幫我們爭取沿海地區喔這人口非常多而且都是工業重鎮、航空城、機場、漁港所以希望這個地區型醫院真的是能夠照顧到非常多的人請部長在這部分幫我們多幫忙我們就等那個臺灣市政府把這個這一個案子好那就請部長在這部分幫我們協助好 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9905.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9909.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
好謝謝圖權級委員接下來請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席麻煩薛部長請薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9931.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9954.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
委員好部長好今天就兩個部分來跟部長討論一下第一部分就是如何落實兒童的友善醫療第二部分就是針對於癌症還是一個重大議題如何能夠強化我們的癌症篩檢來提升整個癌症的存活率 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9955.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9976.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
有關於兒童友善醫療的部分應該是多面向的因為我們台灣真的少子化那也期待每一個孩子都是保我們應該在健康的時候給他很完整的照護當他有疾病的時候如何能夠讓他接受整體的醫療而且能夠讓他順利的康復 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9977.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9993.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以在這部分我們也知道明年度開始就會進行優化兒童醫療照護計畫的第二期那在這部分期待能夠確保提供所有的兒童必須的醫療都能夠得到好的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9994.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10012.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
本席上次也有請教過部長有關於這個在優化兒童照護醫療過程當中兒童醫療輔導師他在臺灣是一個已經在執行中可是還沒有辦法能夠得到很多的重視因為我們知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10013.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10035.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
很多的兒癌病人他真的在整個診療過程裡面很需要更多的這種陪伴或者是有更多的照護那醫療同仁包括醫師包括心理師包括護理師其實也都可以擔任很好的工作可是如果有兒童醫療輔導師的加入的話相對來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10039.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10046.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
就能夠讓他們的整個照顧過程可以更完整那這部分不知道部長目前的狀況如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10047.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10071.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
兒童醫療輔導師這樣子一個概念我想是來自美國加拿大那邊我們國內也有一些人去那邊受到訓練回來也在做這個工作但是如果要他變成一個專業的職類就變成在國內必須要教考、訓用都有所以這個離兒童醫療輔導師的這一個部分的話離這個還很遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10076.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10093.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
但是我們是可以用一個計畫型的事辦計畫型的也許來可以試試看那也就是說這些人要受到一定的訓練但是他可能要有一些專業的背景那這樣子會比較容易來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10093.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10109.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
是,好,所以我們很期待如果能夠有一個示範計畫或者是一個專案型的計畫的話希望能夠把這樣的需求也能夠納入到兒童醫療照護的一部分謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10111.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10137.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
有關於兒癌其實去年2022年一共有436位的兒癌被診斷等於每一天至少會有一位兒癌被確診其中有146位是屬於血癌另外將近300位是屬於固態癌症固態癌症包括血癌的病人其實對化療對放射治療效果都非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10138.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10154.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
目前5年的存活率以上意思就是說如果我們好好把這一群兒癌的病人照顧好他的存活率是非常高的當然我們很希望經過治療以後他比較長期的副作用可以減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10155.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10178.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
很多兒癌尤其是腦神經部分的腫瘤對於放射治療敏感度很高可是我們也很擔心現在一般的放射治療其實它對正常組織的傷害相對是比較高那透過先進的醫學包括直指治療是一個可以提供減低副作用相關的這個比較適當的一個治療選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10180.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10199.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
這一部分不知道部裡面有沒有針對於如何能夠有機會納入一個健保給付的狀況因為去年的資料時書長是說還沒有收到相關的申請不知道目前的狀況如何在目前應該有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10203.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10212.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10232.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10248.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
費用真的是不低一個完整的療程可能要將近百萬那對很多兒癌的家庭這是一個負擔如果能夠有更好的方式來協助尤其這個整個療程也都那麼辛苦如果能夠透過國家的力量來照顧這個兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10250.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10252.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就：一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10267.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10288.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
再過來就是要跟你確認一下剛剛君輝委員也有提到的這個癌症新藥基金的部分我們知道其實如果希望能夠儘速的去使用到這個新藥的基金很快去銜接國人在這部分的醫療需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10290.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10299.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
大家都因應期盼所以我們很希望能夠透過一個順利的而且是穩定的方式來解決這個問題那部長這邊還有沒有補充? |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10303.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10331.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
有關於這個部分的話當初是有兩個意見一個就是說去修癌症防治法成立一個特別的基金那這個部分的話會有一些比較麻煩的問題也就是說未來這個假設說叫做基金這個基金的話可能不是只有癌症可能罕病的話也必須會進來那這樣子又要修一個罕病的那個防治條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10332.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10361.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
所以這樣子第一個在法規上面的話那會變成讓這個新要的範圍受到限縮這是第一個第二個依現在的財政紀律法如果政府要去設這個基金的話那就必須要有什麼財源等等這些的規劃都可以所以主席總署對這個是持比較保留的態度所以我們現在的做法就是先把這個機制因為是需要公務基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10361.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10377.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
公衛金就先依註到健保的裡面來健保基金裡面來但是因為他是特別要做指定的用途的所以我們就要去修這個全民健康保險的這個基金收支管理局應用辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10379.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10391.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
讓這些公務預算補貼進來的這些基金可以做指定用途的使用不會說一定通通都到這個變成說是 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10398.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10403.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10417.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10445.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
他如果是女性癌友的話他對於生育的這個權益的保障我們也希望能夠適度的提高尤其是在少子化的這個過程當中所以不知道部裡面有沒有開始在研議有關的動卵補助如果是40歲以前的女性因為癌症診療關係造成了這種需要的話那這方面希望能夠有更積極的作為來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10447.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10469.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
目前全世界是對於所謂的社會性凍卵這個是沒有也就是說你為了自己的需要然後去做凍卵那準備說以後再來取出來用這個是沒有說有任何的政府補助但是對醫療性的也就是說剛剛像委員提到的你這個因為癌症你可能要接受化療接受放射療法 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10469.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10496.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那可能會影響到你的生子的組織所以這一類的動亂先取出來動亂以免說以後沒有機會這個是有那我們現在是往這方面去做研議那因為全民健保法裡面是規定是人工生子的話是不給付所以我們必須要用公務預算那這部分的話我已經在請國民健康署在做這一方面的研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10496.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10510.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
好希望讓我們的婦女們尤其是有因為癌症整條處理當中造成的影響也能夠讓她更願意把這個生育的部分納為她的重要考量那最後還是有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10512.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10538.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這個癌症的早期發現是真的是能夠能夠幫助整個癌友得到最好治癒率的機會所以我們很期待很期待在做篩檢的部分能夠針對於條件做適度的放寬那因為時間的關係我們希望把這些資訊也提供給部裡做參考這我們會研議好麻煩您部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10540.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10543.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
謝謝王振旭委員接下來請盧憲一委員發言謝謝請部長請薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10565.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10584.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
部長好委員好辛苦了齁那才剛剛那個蘇丹紅的事件沒有多久又發生我們昨天的那個事件齁那你的推測是什麼昨天我們召開了一些專家會議齁那大概目前的方向是最有可能的是那個你 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10585.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10590.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
臺北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10610.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10618.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就：一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10635.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10661.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我們談到今天的主題就是我仔細看了你們的精進作為就是關於制度面、實務面跟法制面我就一項一項來看就制度面來看地方政府收出養媒合機構的分工與迴避利益衝突議題那我不知道這件事情你要怎麼來解釋給大眾聽因為我如果就字面上來看我看不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10662.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10691.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我簡單講就說以目前的機制的話是由收出養沒有機構就說在這個案子裡面是兒童福利聯盟由他去決定說這個小孩子那迴避利益衝突是在指什麼對就由他來決定說這個小孩子是不是要出養但是因為他在如果這個最後這個小孩子會就是有人要收養的他是可以得到酬勞的所以在他的過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10693.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10720.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
要去判斷說小孩子是不是出養是對符合他的最佳率小孩子的最佳率跟他自己最後獲得酬勞的是出養這兩個就會有衝突是那你說應該是在地方政府對不對所以我們希望在未來的話把這個出養的必要性的評估放在地方政府那地方政府的能力夠負擔這些那麼多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10720.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10723.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
第二項就是保母全日托的監督機制,那你們的監督機制有出來了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10736.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10748.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
其實現在是有啦就是說對於這個全日拖的一些監督室跟一般的日拖的這種保姆的話他的要求是有的沒關係下一頁還有我們就先看這個那幼兒專責醫師制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10752.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10776.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
確實可行嗎?當然是可行可是在有些地方就是沒有這些醫師的訓練,他們有足夠的醫師量來做這些事情嗎?我們目前這個盤點過應該沒有問題,因為如果沒有小兒科醫師的地方,比方說比較偏遠的地區的話,就衛生所上課或者是訓練就可以了如果確實沒有醫生的地方怎麼辦? |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10779.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10779.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
進行專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10803.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10825.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
究竟是多少?是一個禮拜一次還是三天一次還是怎麼樣?這個部分其實是這樣子的,我們的意思並不是說單一個社工要去增加他們loading我就是不希望增加他們loading,我只要問你說大概是多少?是因為這種特殊的個案會有各個方面的社工所以你有分級了,比如說這個小朋友是屬於脆弱家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10834.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10849.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
因注意事項列表,我也沒有看到,所以我希望你們可以大概絕對告訴我列表是哪些嗎?這部分的話,我們會討論。那附訪機制的話,附訪機制是指哪些人附訪?就是我剛剛講的,就是交叉方式。 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10850.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10869.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
您有居托中心的、您有社福中心的、您有像這個瘦豬養媒合機構的那這些的話必須在開始的時候接下來還有那個保姆督導管理制度對不對那我也沒有看到現在跟以後的那個這個部分的話我們會去加強因為目前在兒福聯盟我們的這個去討論的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10873.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10891.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
這並沒有一個...部長那上次我有提到通訊的功能也就是說希望能夠增加一個視訊的一個所謂的監督比如說我今天我的孩子就放在那邊24小時那是不是有一個機制說我可以我可以什麼時段可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10892.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10893.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10913.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10938.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
因為我們知道凱凱的事件就是其實就有這種方式是可以的其實可能只看到了一次後面第二次第三次都沒有看到才會發生這樣的事情所以我們才希望能夠增加視訊的一個所謂的監督啊或者是至少看到小朋友的樣子如果以後護理的方式或者是醫生的方式如果增加了視訊的這方面也就是以後我們所謂的遠距嘛因為如果太遠的地方常常需要遠距是不是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10939.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10945.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
最後就是法制面的部分你們說以後會兒童及少年福利權益保障法及制定兒童托育服務法這兩個是目前都還沒有嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10964.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10987.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
現在都在進行,第一個是這個法是修法,第二個是新的立法那我現在秀出一張照片是昨天有民眾跟我就是希望說我能夠關心的這件事情他這件事情就是3月4號他被保母通知說孩子發生溢奶或者是說所謂的嗆到的事件,就送到平基 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10987.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10995.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
然後急救區急救的時候已經有CPR過也就是說他曾經心肺停止過那 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10996.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11017.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
三月十二號因為病情加重現在現在正在高雄長庚的加護病房那我覺得一個孩子的媽媽可以透過網路來尋求幫忙這是什麼樣的一個時代是不是還沒有一個政府的一個部門去主動關心這件事情嗎從三月四號現在已經幾號了 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11021.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11047.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這個應該是屏東縣政府應該是在他的介入當中是可是感覺媽媽很無助啊你看他的內容喔哥我真的求求你們大家幫忙我能多一個人看到對我們來說都是一個機會這樣一個話語是非常無助的母親所說的話那希望你們能夠如果你們有足夠的人力去了解這幾天能夠回覆給我好不好好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11051.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11065.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
謝謝盧憲一委員接下來請郭育晴委員發言謝謝主席我請教育部次長請林次長委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11074.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11096.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
市長早安午安昨天不曉得市長您有看到兒童福利聯盟開的記者會嗎有是不給提問的記者會對不對對那當然我們相信身為主管機關的教育部跟衛福部其實你們也羅列了七大的缺失教育部這邊也特別提了四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11097.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11126.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那我們先姑且先不要看這些缺失了我想這個兒童聯盟已經不是第一次出事了五年前的佩佩案其實早在那個時候我們就應該要開始要針對他們的重大缺失因為一個孩子的死亡是在他們這麼大的一個有龐大資產的財團法人當中離開的接下來又發生了凱凱案那除了雙北市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11127.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11131.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部部長、教育部部長、教育部部長、教育部部長、教育部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11151.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11179.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
之後其實他們就沒有所謂的監察人的職權的存在您知道這件事嗎這個我們他以前都有那110年之後監察人就辭職辭職以後他也會補社他到現在沒有補社對他有允諾說下一次董事會要再來補選那既然他沒有監察人他怎麼落實他自己本身的內控的問題再加上我們是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11180.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11207.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
查詢也就是我們要備查他們的這個部分是不是也等於是虛設?他的捐助章程自己是寫得涉他自己的內部治理說得涉監察人一至三人那但是因為我們這樣看因為他有龐大的資產所以沒有監察報告是不行的是好這個回過頭來他110年他沒有監察人這個角色存在了那109年 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11210.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11229.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
您記得點開教育部的資訊網站當中可以看到一則新聞是當初兒童福利聯盟用3.7億買下了大樓這個部分其實當時教育部就說我要嚴格的要來審查你們做到了嗎請市長來做一下回答可以嗎那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11236.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11259.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
報告委員,那有關那個當時他們買內湖的內棟大樓是他後來沒有動用到法登,就是法院登記的財產他後來是用他的這個年度預算來購買這個大樓所以如果那個沒有動用到法登的財產,其實他是不需要報教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11259.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11287.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
因為通常我們教育部在備查他們的整個所有的流程不管是他們的工作報告、業務報告也好或者是他們財產清澈也好就是你們教育部的做法是什麼你們對底下的財團法人的做法是用抽查的用抽的還是像這樣子一個比較大幾乎可以算是壟斷了像這麼大的一個龐大資產的一個兒福聯盟你們是每年備查嗎還是只是用抽的 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11289.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11309.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
因為教育部底下有700多家的這個基金會那目前我們是每年他們必須在1月跟5月必須要上傳他當那個工作計畫預算以及他的這個財報這個是他每年都必須要上傳那我們會請會計那你們沒有發現他110年就已經沒有監察人這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11314.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11340.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
但因為他的組織章程是德社而不是英社所以你們也不強制要求?還是要從現在開始我們要強制要求?財團法人法目前是用德社的方式所以我們沒有辦法強制要求但是我們可以列入優先抽查德社監察人他沒有事那以後就列為稽查的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11342.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11365.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
因為這個就像我剛剛說的因為他們所有的工作的報告業務的內容包含他們財產清澈還有他們整個所有高層他們的董事他們的執行長如果有違背他們當初設立的職務的宗旨其實你們是可以拜託印起來是可以裁罰的這個部分要不要做到按照我們財團法人法所授權的行政單位的確有這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11373.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11400.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
因為這次你們羅列的七大缺失當中四大缺失當中其實你們也自己也說了執行長跟策略長兩個職位他們的職權職能分工其實不是那麼界限不是那麼的清楚沒有書面規章來約束所以他們執行長現在辭職了現在反而是策略長在接替這個位置所以那他要不要被究責嗎需不需要這麼大的一個案件董事會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11401.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11420.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
的治理精神我們是尊重他因為他們是可有作為但是不作為喔那這個部分其實拜託真的教育部我們不希望再看到凱凱的案子再發生因為我們知道他的手上還有123個孩子現在雖然我們暫停他收出養的一個業務但是將來呢會不會有第二個凱凱會不會有第三個凱凱會不會有第四個佩佩 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11428.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11449.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這個對於財團法人的監理我們應該要更加一點功夫加油好嗎我們希望看到教育部身為他的主管機關我們真的嚴格用財團法人法來看看這個兒童福利聯盟他到底是怎麼辜負所有臺灣人的捐款可以嗎對這個以後要更加的努力因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11450.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11450.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11475.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11490.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
部長好現在目前全國帶出養的孩子大概有430位在兒童福利聯盟手上還有123位接下來這123位雖然我們已經暫緩他收出養的一個業務123位的孩子誰負責目前還是他繼續在負責當中因為我們是暫停未來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11502.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11529.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
所以這個還是由他負責?對,但是我們會要求地方政府一定要加強他的地方政府有站出來嗎?還是公親嗎?沒有沒有,我們要求臺北市政府要不要出來負責?我們會要求他加強這現在已經在收養當中的這一百多人我們盡量做到好嗎?好不好?因為這真的是全臺灣人的痛凱凱案不能就這樣沉睡了謝謝部長謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11532.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11532.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
政務司司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11563.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11589.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
主席、各位委員、有請部長還有教育部次長請薛部長、請林次長委員好部長辛苦了還有次長今天看了你們的報告比上次好很多有比較詳細的相關的這些檢討跟相關的因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11595.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11622.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那教育部這邊作為一個主管機關真的你們要不是噁後現在就要去針對兒童這樣的一個機構財團法人直接就要去好好的去檢討過去沒有去注意到 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11623.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11644.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11644.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11673.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
即時的補選監察人那一般如果沒有監察人是屬於基金規模比較小我只是舉例子啦但是以這個案對兒童的這樣的一個嚴重的死亡案件然後相關的這些制度社工員的訪視各方面都是很多需要檢討的包括那個保護的 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11675.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11704.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
的選擇保姆最重要啊對不對這選擇顯然有問題嘛但是合作的合作選擇的就不對了嘛一開始就沒有搞清楚嘛所以這部分要請教育部好好地去針對這個事件然後要做應該該有怎麼樣的處分就該有怎麼樣的就依法依法來辦理請那個次長回頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11707.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11735.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
好部長那今天這個資料我們看這個臺灣真的是一個很可悲的地方每次我參加結婚的我都拜託我除了祝福之外就是拜託多多多的生孩子你看我們的嬰兒出生數確實是在溜滑梯但是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11736.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11759.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
海童的一個對我們對海童的一個協助尤其是脆弱的家庭的協助真的是非常非常的不足所以這樣的發生這樣的事情真的是令人我們的新生兒嬰兒死亡數真的是都很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11760.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11789.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那今天衛福部的檢討報告裡面我剛剛有講過這個比上次的所有的內容都增進很多了那現在就是說這個最佳利益兒童少年的最佳利益這個部分因為我是原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11791.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11814.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
我對這個最佳利益的考量交給這個民間的機構我一直是有意見的比如說原住民的孩子要被出養是不是最佳利益不能只看他有沒有很有錢啊你知道嗎所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11816.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11839.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
有時候是這個族群的關係也會有希望有族群的因素但是從來就欠缺這個部分我們也沒辦法因為那個都要送到法院了所以要送到法院法院就看我們也不能怪法官他也沒有時間他也沒有這個那個能力只好按照這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11842.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11845.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
進行專題報告進行專題報告進行專題報告進行專題報告進行專題報告進行專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11876.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11899.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
所以這個保姆很重要所以保姆的選擇保姆的教育然後社工研的選擇社工研的教育我就談社工研好了社工研啊社工師很難考啊我認識的人都考不上社工師啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11900.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11928.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
但是他們在社工界非常棒所以這個教育訓練他能考上祝福他但是相關的教育訓練尤其那個那個不是所謂的教育訓練更重要的是他那個社工的角色的能夠怎麼樣能夠落實在這個所有的工作上這個是一個因為時間的關係這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11936.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11955.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
謝謝委員的質詢這一個部分包括社工現在社工是不限於社工師其他沒有考上製造但是有一定資格的還是可以當社工人員包括我們的社工人員包括我們的保姆其實大部分都是好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11957.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11962.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我們現在只是在處理的就是怎麼樣預防一些不好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11963.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11989.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
能夠讓他不會有這種惡意的去做這些這類的事情其實我們這一個案子得到的教訓是這樣子所以我們必須先肯定大部分的都是好人都是好好做事的就是在制度上面怎麼樣讓他能夠把這一些不好的排除或者撞了他進來他也不敢做壞事 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11991.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11999.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
好,繼續加油好,謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員接下來請許巧欣委員發言謝謝主席,我們請衛福部薛部長請薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12016.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12041.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
委員好部長好這次這個保齡茶室的重大食安案件社會大眾都非常的關心那我們首先也要希望我們中央跟地方共同來協作盡快破案不要讓人民都一直在這個食安的風險當中那我覺得到目前為止集會服務動作是相當積極的這14個受害民眾裡面有一些時序我想要跟部長來確認一下因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12042.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12065.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
時序很重要,它對應到的是中央跟地方整體權責的一些釐清等等的那想跟部長第一個確認的是目前產生身體不適的受害民眾都是在3月19號到23號期間前往保齡茶室用餐共通點是有吃到炒粿粉、滑蛋河粉跟香蘭葉果汁,對嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12067.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12068.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
3月24日,新北市接獲通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12088.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12107.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那通知了臺北那新北跟臺北在3月24號有通知中央發生這樣子的事情是嗎?有在24號的時候那10月15就已經接受到這個新北的通報接到新北可以再進一步問一下是上午下午左右那個時間大概12點左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12108.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12133.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
大概中午12點左右接到通報嘛所以呢臺北市當天3月24號也進行了第一次稽查3月25號臺北市進行第二次稽查3月26號勒令停業這個時候中央跟臺北市我們一起進行了第三次的稽查那個部長這個時序是正確的嗎那3月27號就是全臺北市的保齡都要求他們要勒令停業嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12133.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12161.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
那所以從剛才3月19號到27號這段時間我所敘述的時間點部長您這邊也是同樣的確認是這個樣子那我想是這樣子因為今天我相信今天的質詢很多包含媒體都在看因為今天民進黨的立法委員吳思瑤他說中央是在26號的11點18分才接到臺北市政府的通報跟剛才我們部長講的時序不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12164.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12188.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
應該是在3月24號當天就收到通報了而不是在26號才收到通報我想這麼重大的食安事件裡面時序非常的重要不應該有講錯的這個情況如果真的不小心說錯也應該要盡快的還原而不是讓錯誤的訊息在社會上面流傳所以在這邊我要特別再提到一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12188.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12201.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
三月二十四號新北接到通報通知臺北新北也通知了中央在中午剛才部長所說的十二點左右的時候後續二四、二五、二六臺北市三次稽查26號中央一起稽查我認為相關的這個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12206.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12231.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
王必勝次長今天早上受訪的時候也說不應該苛責北市的童人我們應該是趕緊的一起去把事情調查清楚所以我希望不要再有人在外面散播假訊息非常的可惡那我進一步詢問部長24號到26號中間中央除了關注本案之外我們還做了哪一些事情可以跟社會大眾做說明包含跟地方的合作、給予地方的協助等等的24號到26號的期間有嗎?有 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12234.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12250.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
這部分當然中央所做的事情第一個就是我們也通知了這個法務部那啟動這個檢調因為我們沒有辦法排除說是歪例的對,因為這是非常詭異這是第一點那這個應該是在26號的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12254.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12272.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
二十六號的時候對那第二個就是說在二十七號也就是昨天晚上我們就召集了這一個包括那個化學局、化學署、環境部的那也應該有包括那個農業部的、農藥的方面的專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12273.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12294.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
因為我們要趕緊確認檢驗方法跟標準品的部分還有當然我們部裡面的食藥署跟機關署還有就是這個毒物的專專我們最快什麼時候可以檢驗出來因為我跟部長報告因為現在大家在外食的都很擔心然後碰到比如說像是河粉、果粉等等的大家都不太敢吃可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12295.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12319.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我覺得這樣也不好對我們的商家來說也造成很大的困擾所以越快能夠調查出來是越好目前我們是中央有去6樣嘛我記得是6樣高麗菜、豆芽菜、粿條、紅喜菇、香腩宴跟醬油現場抽驗之後由中央帶回去要準備來演是吧對有35項35項那這35項可以跟大家說明一下什麼時候能夠檢驗出來嗎這個要看 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12323.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12350.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我簡單說明因為現在最有可能的是一個叫BK米酵菌酸這個部分因為我們沒有標準品所以現在正在採購大概下個禮拜會進來這是最可能的一個但是因為我們沒有辦法排除其他的毒物比方說農藥或其他的一些所以那一個部分我們會先開始做那我們預計因為下禮拜如果到的話那檢驗還需要多久的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12352.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12355.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
檢驗應該時間不會太長我們現在做的有關於其他藥物跟農藥等等這一些的話大家已經開始準備要做了米酵菌酸的這一個部分的話大概要一個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12372.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12373.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
中央地方共同解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12392.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12393.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
主席有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12422.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12423.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
請薛部長部長我想根據徐曉欣委員的質詢我想請教一下您覺得現在關於保齡茶室目前的一個中毒案你覺得臺北市政府有慢N派嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12449.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12469.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我們持平而論,其實這個並沒有,因為可能大部分的人並不清楚說食物中毒處理的流程因為一發生有這樣子的通報事件的時候,懷疑是有食物中毒,就是群聚的第一個會先去檢查這個有沒有流氧,就是食材有沒有流下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12470.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12494.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
第二、檢查廚師的身體有沒有細菌殘留、傷口等等第三、現場環境要去做檢查這個是SOP,所以臺北市在24號進去的時候就是做這些事情但是後來案件一直出來,這個過程就跟平常的食物種族是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12494.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12516.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
所以當我們收集了這些案件的時候我們就警覺到所以26號我們就跟這個臺北市講說這個案件不單純我們可能要更做更多一點所以我們又再度去做了一些收集然後做一些檢查然後收集了一些檢體回來是,非常謝謝部長很詳盡的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12520.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12532.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
因為這個保齡茶室的問題啊這人心惶惶我直接跟部長說我就有接到選民反應啊他是素食者你要知道素食者餐廳選項是比較少的所以他其實到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12533.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12560.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這個信義區那邊去逛的時候他常常就到A13的保齡食堂所以他是常客所以當這個事件發生之後其實很多人都擔心那甚至不只是素食者擔心你也包括外面其他的人也擔心說到底他的原因是什麼也很擔心是不是別的餐廳有這個問題還是甚至有人講說是不是有切面人的下毒的問題目前的原因還不明所以很多人很擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12561.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12583.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
在這個時候真的我覺得沒有必要去什麼是去攻擊什麼慢恩派啦那我覺得你說臺北市政府慢恩派剛剛其實部長有還原啊從這個3月24號這個接貨通報然後開始稽查然後3月25號、3月26號、3月27號其實包括稽查、再稽查跟停業 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12584.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12600.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
事實上都有一個作業的一個過程那剛剛部長也很清楚講說並沒有覺得說這個臺北市有所謂的慢拍的問題那我覺得這是一個處理問題很好的態度所以我給部長一個肯定當然我這邊當然也要呼籲民進黨的朋友民進黨黨團不要在這個事實真相未明之前這麼急著跳進來就開始去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12612.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12631.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這是攻擊誰慢半拍、慢N拍我覺得大可不必啦現在還是交給我們中央跟地方一起攜手把原因找出來是最重要的對不對因為後續的話如果查出原因的話那就要再往上去追查說可能擴及的範圍對對對對所以很多事情還是要中央地方一起配合來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12632.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12652.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我覺得剛剛部長講到重點啦因為我剛剛也聽到部長在前面答詢的過程當中講到說我覺得大概可以分三塊如果部長你覺得還有更多你跟我補充就目前原因追查的話第一個是說您講說那個米酵菌栓的可能性很高嘛但是比較可惜是我目前沒有辦法進行對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12652.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12670.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
所以你等到你開始可以進行加上檢驗結果出來你估要兩個禮拜嘛 對不對所以這個說真的坦白講我覺得這個時間如果能再縮短就再縮短但是如果像農藥等等這一些我們的檢驗就可以比較這我講第二塊嘛 就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12671.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12692.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
米酵菌栓因為現在沒有辦法立刻做檢驗但米酵菌栓以外的農藥或其他的食物中毒的一些東西標準作業大概一個禮拜內可以完成是不是?差不多但是這兩個所謂食物中毒以外的可能性有沒有思考過?網路上有些講是不是有千名人下毒的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12692.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12718.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
這有思考過嗎?還是可以用這種方式來去檢驗出來嘛那所以現在最後還是跟這個部長真的是拜託一下就是說因為這件事情真的大家非常關心能夠把時間盡量把它這個壓縮原因找出來才能夠往上面去追範圍嘛因為現在大家最擔心的範圍就是真的很多民眾在講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12719.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12744.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
阿是只有這一家嗎?到底是什麼原因中毒目前不知道,所以是不是只有這一家,其實我們也不知道,所以在這種情況之下大家當然就會開始擔心,所以這一點真是拜託部長能夠再加把勁。不過這果粉的製造商的那一部分是在新北市,這個我們已經把它暫停它的出貨,也把它的這些樣品留下來了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12744.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12744.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
主席謝謝,麻煩請薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12773.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12799.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
委員好部長我想大家共同關心保齡茶社這個事情也是我們大家現在關注的焦點因為大家也會覺得說奇怪到底它是什麼樣的原因因為找不出原因其實反而是最恐怖的那我先請教一下到目前為止案發到現在除了這一個在百貨公司裡面的這個保齡茶社其他保齡茶社相關體系的店有沒有去做一個瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12800.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12823.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
這個是臺北市已經給他停業了其他的他們的分支的系統他其他的分店都已經停業了嗎?對,都已經停業了那臺中的部分的話也已經歇業了臺中市已經歇業了?這原本就沒有再營業了但臺北市還有五家店那這五家店有沒有先去做一個都已經先停業了因為這個可能這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12829.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12851.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
至於這些食物中毒的原因大概我們是已經鎖定是在果粉因為這十幾個病患共同能夠吃有吃到的就是果粉、龜糞大概是這樣所以目前大概focus在這一塊但是到底果粉裡面發生什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12852.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12854.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
因為目前有這些症狀出來通報過來通通都是到這一家去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12880.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12903.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那到其他地方,我們的有在賣...目前是沒有看到其他...好,那這一定要釐清啦到底是保存問題還是說真的有加到什麼不該加的添加物還是怎麼樣的原因那另外因為媒體上面也報導是說這個保齡茶室啊他們有投保公共責任意外險以及附加食物中毒條款結果居然是到去年他就沒有再保了 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12904.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12929.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
對,好像是到期之後對,到期之後沒有再保那有沒有針對這個部分我們衛福部有沒有考慮說是不是未來這些餐廳業者有需要這樣子的一個保障本來我們就有要求只是說因為他停保也沒有跟就是說他這個到期也沒有通知我們所以我們並不知道說他的那我們的要求是法條的法規的要求還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12931.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12958.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
食安法第13條就是要求說像有商業登記、有那個公司登記、工廠登記的餐飲業者都必須要有投保那這樣子是不是要先開罰我們會會什麼時候它的處罰是3到300萬對我們會立刻通知對你們會立刻通知對地方來開罰是本席為什麼會提醒就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12959.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12981.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我覺得是這樣子啦對我們很希望是說臺灣不管是業者不管是我們的一般的經營人士大家都是合理的面對食品安全但是每一次好像遇到一個問題之後才發覺是說原來我們應該做的其實很多時候法規也有限制很多時候指引也有出來但是怎麼會大家在執行過程當中便宜稀釋或是大事化小小事化無 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12982.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
13009.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那真的發生事情之後才發覺說這個也沒做到、那也沒做到所以應該要執行公權力的時候請馬上執行公權力,可以嗎?好,這我們馬上來辦理部長,拉回來今天的一個主要也是社會安全網我覺得這很重要,食安、食品安全網、社會安全網都一樣重要本席想請教一下今天我也看到了你的這個報告也有講到說新北市府和臺北市府的部分但是昨天林萬義政委他開會的時候有講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
13012.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
13024.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
這裡到底在這個優化收出養的程序裡面我們是不是還是應該要由中央統一來做一些收出養的法規跟制度面的問題來調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
13026.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
13048.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
對這個在討論當中而且是要修兒權法那這部分的話即使已經討論到一個程度當然還有不同的意見要修法嘛所以說主要還是中央要一個上位的部分把這個兒權法給修法修法之後地方政府來去做落實跟執行對不對那有沒有進度原則上這個修法是有進度的什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
13053.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
13082.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
五月提出本部草案那送行政院會先預告預告之後的話收集意見之後的話那就會送法規會去做文字的修正那我們做了調整什麼時候能夠送到立法院我們一起來本席這邊也提出相關對應的版本我們也拜託召委如果有話衛黃委會趕快來排案我們趕快來修該補的破網趕快來補我預估大概在下半年可以送到下半年對 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
13084.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
13109.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
這個這個會期大概來不及這個會期來不及這個會期可能我們會研會喔因為520如果說內閣總辭新的內閣上了之後我們會要求再持續的總諮詢喔因為我們還有預告預告完之後要送那個預告相對來講這個應該是比較單純的一個修法嗎沒有大概可能至於部長全文修正可能搞不好要60天的預告 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
13109.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
13124.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
部長,但是本席還是強調啊因為現在已經看到問題那如果說我們都已經很明顯的知道是說這個是過去沒有補足的一個部分以前都是規定家內那這次反而看到是家外 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
13124.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
13150.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那家外部分當然要修就一次把整個體制更健全不過報告委員這現在出問題的並不是只有靠修法才能夠處理比方說這一個個案本身它就是脆弱家庭脆弱家庭就有一些應該要做的事情那這一個部分的話我們檢討如果沒有做好的話那就應該是先把它做好這就不涉及修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
13150.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
13159.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那效法是整個收出養的這個程序的話需要做一些檢討是所以我現在在講的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
13161.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
13181.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
該快步進行的趕快步進行嘛所以修法的過程當中本期還是提醒啦如果說能夠在這個會期送進來我覺得會是更符合大家的期待但是我們一定也會提出我們相對應的版本也希望我們共同的來補期不要再有下一個憾事發生這個是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
13181.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
13204.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
每一次發生事件的時候我們真應該從事件裡面記取的教訓而不是說每一次就推地方政府的責任、中央政府的責任說實在責任大家都有但重點是怎麼樣強化我們原有的保護機制跟安全機制讓2350萬人共同活在一個更完整的地方我想這才是我們的重點是吧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
13205.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
13218.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
部長再拜託加緊進度我們會持續追這個議題我們不會放鬆好不好謝謝謝謝洪孟楷委員接下來請李燕秀委員發言我請部長請薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
13234.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
13257.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
衛生福利部部長辛苦了一連串的事情我覺得整個衛福部其實事情也蠻多的我還是要根據這兩天發生的保齡堂的食安事件要跟您討論一下就是說我覺得這一連串食安的事件看起來對於我們臺灣是美食王國 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
13259.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
13278.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
我們引外國人、亞洲這些國家來都非常喜歡吃臺灣的小吃你認不認同這一連串的事件在國際上來講對國人每天外食足非常非常多你覺得對於臺灣的美食王國會不會受傷?對於這個國人,因為目前的話那損害還是控制在一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
13280.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
13302.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我只問你說你覺得在國際上或對於國人來說你覺得美食王國也好對於這些小吃攤也好甚至是昨天發生的事一般我們都會覺得說至少在百貨公司地下街我們願意多付一點點錢去吃東西這兩天我相信很多百貨公司地下街反而是很多人不敢去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
13303.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13321.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
所以你覺得這一連串事件對於臺灣美食王國是不是一個打擊我想如果說事件控制在一個範圍之內都不會有影響那麼大啦錯了部長這一連串的事件當然對於臺灣美食王國我不願意看它發生但是在印象上在形象上 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13322.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13325.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
這是我要提醒你的第二點我要回到今天的主題這一段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13351.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13367.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
五二零要上任賴總統都在做健康臺灣的這個巡迴論壇特別在第一場論壇當中也提到我們兒少的安全的部分保護事項也提到說兒科醫學會提到說我們現在缺乏跨部門的統籌機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13370.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13376.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
這件事情是兒科醫學會提出來的當然我們現在兒童權利公約在國際審查結論的專家報告中也指出來說我們現在也應該要一個兒少權利機構的跨部會的協調部門出來可見這件事情是非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13388.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13417.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
我不知道在我們接下來整個修法之後整個行政部會對於無論是國際審查委員的建議或者是兒科醫學會的建議我們未來怎麼去處理這一塊但是這一塊是很重要第一個我要提醒部長但是對於這整件事情的背後其實很多家長最近都還是在問我就是說我們到底中央跟地方對於整個保姆系統的管理有沒有一套更完整一致的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13417.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13442.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
指引出來而這個指引是中央要跟地方常常溝通常常要去協調我們要再增加什麼樣的管理然後讓所有想進來托育保姆這個行業我們隨時都在跟著家長或環境的變動我們這個資訊都是update的我們這套指引管理是update的所以這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13443.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13457.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
接下來包括這些應該要有一個更完整中央跟地方要去做具體的對策跟討論也要有一套更完整的管理機制部長我講到這邊你認同這個完整的指引跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13460.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13473.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
考核機制未來會不會有這我非常的認同現在沒有嘛現在有但是不夠完整不夠完整但是他就是需要再跟地方逐步的去做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13475.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13493.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
所以部長因為我時間不多所以彭婉如的基金會這一次講得非常好就是說我們沒有一套更完整的系統要跟中央跟地方就是說我們中央現在急著把權限丟給地方但是怎麼樣有一套更完整的系統中央跟地方常常在溝通協調因為常常進來這個職場的人可能會流動率也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13497.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13498.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
現在整體的系統是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13518.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13534.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
但是是否能夠因爲各個不同的縣市或者是因爲時間的轉變而必須要去做調整﹖那就要定﹖對,部長所以你不應該跟我講說現在有限制就是說你剛剛講的各地方不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13535.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13563.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
因地制宜也好跟著時間不同所以我才說現在都是多籌馬車的方式所以我覺得更完整的系統是有必要的所以第一個部長因為我時間到了更完整的系統更完整的指引系統中央跟地方要常交流把這些資訊更完整化是我要提的然後另外一個社工的部分的管理你們一直在講說我們現在社工其實進入率也很高但是我更認為更重要的是它的流動率非常的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13564.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13593.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
主要社工不足之外我覺得保護性的社工我們這是培養跟家屬之間的信賴關係我想你應該同意所以社工的流動率高其實對於案件的管理並不是一個穩定比較好的狀態所以我覺得不應該只是強調我們的進入率包括他的退出率你看社安網的第二期我們的流動率從14.5到25.8這個流動率是高的我覺得不僅是社工人力不足流動率高 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13593.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13609.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
也是你要去做考量的好不好這兩個問題然後最後一個在最後30秒部長前天院會的時候我特別提到4月1號要漲的電價你沒有具體的回應我覺得對於中小型的醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13610.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13633.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
診所偏鄉衝擊是非常大的因為他可能病人沒有那麼多但是他店還是要開所以可不可以有一些配套的措施我再一次的拜託您現在這個最近應該會召開相關的部會來做討論所以會有一些配套措施對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13634.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13635.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
李彥修委員﹗接下來請李昆城委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13666.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13668.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
謝謝主席我們請這個薛部長請薛部長委員好部長好這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13676.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13705.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
當然我很關心今天的這個主題那不過這個我也要先問一下就是說這個寶蓮茶室這個中毒的事件因為有兩位不幸往生者都是三重人那所以我必須要先來關心一下那請問一下就是綜合這個部長跟次長所講的我想先釐清一下這個個案的這個時序就是說臺北市何時接到這個個案那我們中央是何時收到這個臺北市的這個通知這個時序能不能請部長再說清楚一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13705.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13728.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
因為我發現您說的跟王次長所說的時序有點不太一樣首先是3月22日有兩名民眾因為吃了這個東西以後出現不適的症狀所以到新北市三重院區去就醫 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13729.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13730.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
二十四日 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13747.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13775.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
臺北市衛生局因為到了馬街馬街做通報之後的話那衛生局跟食藥署就接受到新北市衛生局來通報有這樣子的一個案件所以那時候馬街就先24號中午就先通報我們食藥署因為他們覺得這個不正常對 因為有死亡有死亡所以它是主要是通報到那個臺北市那臺北市就在24號 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13777.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13782.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
因為它是單一個案,所以我們並沒有先把它判斷說它是一個連鎖性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13801.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13825.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
所以那個時候這個地方政府就按照這個原定的SOP去做這些採樣是那到了26號又接到這個有這種這個臺北市衛生局有說又有這個疑似食物中毒的這個案件出來這是第二例死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13826.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13827.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
大量的通報就進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13848.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13874.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
那個是在26號26號對那26號的時候直到27號的話那一共有13個病例但最近又加了一個好那中央是為那個食藥署是何時去介入這個案子的26號26號就24號通報的時候就是按照這一個地方政府按照一般的通報的這一個這個程序來通報因為前面的話是地方先執行那 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13875.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13896.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
我們這邊的話是有兩條線一個是食物中毒的通報是由食藥署這邊來接收但是這一個一方面是疾病管制署也是在26號接到臺北市衛生局的通報因為這有可能是一個微生物的感染 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13896.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13905.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那集管署那邊、CDC那邊接到通報之後,他就啟動跟臺北市去做議調所以是26號的事情嗎?對,26號的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13908.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13932.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
這個我覺得把時序釐清清楚啦那也不是說在責怪中央或地方因為這件事情非比尋常因為過去很久沒有因為說食物中毒的事情引起現在至少現在有兩位死亡嘛然後五位在這個ICU四位在ICU那我意思是說那個部長能不能就是把說這幾天發生的事件我們做一個時序表出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13933.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13954.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
然後還有這個目前的症狀是怎麼樣因為大家會覺得說那我現在如果是不是有類似的症狀那我該怎麼辦就變成說大家必須要有這個意識感就是說剛開始食物中途可能噁心想吐但是如果有其他的類似的症狀比如說我不清楚因為現在就是說個案都有這個肝衰竭 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13955.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13983.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
還有酸中毒的這種現象那所以我想說是不是請衛福部就在這方面這個跟大家來說清楚因為就這幾天的事情嘛那把這個現象這一個有可能會發生的這一個症狀讓大家知道就是說有可能那當你如果去這個保齡茶室的話那當然機會就更大但是如果你沒有去到保齡茶室但是你有可能但是有可能你有類似的症狀的話你就必須要提高你的意識了 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13983.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
14004.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
那我想說這部分能不能請這一個衛福部就今天就把這個事情我覺得不管是時序因為我想時序我這樣聽我才比較聽得清楚這個就是說類似的症狀你把它羅列出來讓這幾天讓國人有個警覺性那我希望說這件事就是希望說單純就是保齡茶室的風波不要再蔓延那其實我也對於說大家對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
14005.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
14006.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
韓國瑜主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
14019.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
14021.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那我希望說其他能做的那何時能夠公佈勒? |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
14042.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
14065.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
呃...可能所有的這些東西檢驗到一個...到一個階段可能也要一個禮拜啦也要一個禮拜喔?也要一個禮拜那...那所以我剛才講的就是說要提醒民眾齁...如果當然有保齡茶是大家都會有警覺阿但是如果類似症狀的話也要提高大家的這個警覺性我們會公佈...我們會公佈這些齁...那...那個中毒的一個症狀齁...那等等的一些...對...因為這兩天大家會比較緊張一點點齁...OK好謝謝謝謝部長好謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
14074.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
14085.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
林柱英委員、林委員、林委員不在請吳佩奕委員、吳委員、吳委員不在請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝主席,我們請薛部長請薛部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
14092.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
14118.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
部長今天很多委員也針對這個食安的問題就叫我們的部長那我想請教因為這幾天真的很多人非常的震驚就是說吃個果條吃個粿子就這樣一兩天就沒了就過世了所以大家真的都非常的擔心那我是不是可以請部長就是說在我們還沒有確定這個到底是 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
14119.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
14119.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
14141.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
14156.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
民眾很喜歡在這個吃美食嘛所以在這個攤一般的這個小吃攤這個果條是很容易很容易這個你要吃你就有啊隨時都有啊所以要怎麼樣去預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
14158.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
14180.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
通常因為它本身會產生這個VA酸的細菌並不是在國內常見的細菌基本上我們的環境裡面不太看得到但是有一些進口的食品尤其是可能是像在東南亞這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
14182.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
14183.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
提供的檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
14203.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
14220.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
所以我們還是建議民眾的話這些食品業者、餐飲業者要保持那個效期食物的效期不要過期還在賣這是大概是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
14220.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
14245.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
然後另外就是在食物的這個溫度的保存這個部分要去注意是,好,真的,大家看到這個新聞大家都真的非常的擔心就是說這個食品,攜帶外食的真的非常多平常我們真的都是幾乎都是外食三餐都是吃外面所以真的政府的把關真的非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
14246.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
14246.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
14268.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
14283.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
應更嚴格一點吧,可是還是發生這樣的事情,所以我覺得說真的盡快去釐清那到底是發生什麼事,那未來要怎麼去預防,這個我覺得是更重要。部長接下來我想請教,就是說我們發生這個凱凱事件之後, |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
14288.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
14316.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
我們看到這個世界展望會他就說他要退出退出這樣子這個寄養家庭的這個業務啦那我想請教就是說像世界展望會他如果退出的話那他的這個業務原本你們是不是應該也要去找其他的這個單位來承接嘛那如果萬一其他的這個原本媒合的機構也覺得這個風險太大那我也不想來承接這樣的業務的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
14317.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
14317.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
進行專題報告進行專題報告進行專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
14334.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14356.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
不要讓這個第一線的社工人員來承擔這麼大的一個責任所以我先請教就是說部長未來世界展望會他退出這個媒合機構之後那我們未來要怎麼去把這個再把他補齊嗎那這樣子的漏洞要怎麼讓他我們說後面就是要保護人 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
14359.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14386.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
讓後面的這個另外就是說寄養家庭招募困難其實種種的困難我希望就是說中央跟地方是大家一起合作的那把這個這個我們的兒少的這個這個漏洞把它補齊我認為這是我們做這個中央政府跟地方政府這個責無旁貸的事情所以我是不是先請部長先回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14387.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14407.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
首先是市長會他要退出寄養家庭他的意思這是說他不再去組織這個寄養家庭所以我們第一步當然就趕快找有沒有其他的團體願意來接手寄養家庭並沒有被解散掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
14409.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14418.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
當然第二個我們在關心的是其實是這件事情比較重要的是寄養家庭逐漸在萎縮當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14420.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14447.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
所以我們需要來檢討寄養家庭他的整個的結構還有說他的營運碰到了什麼樣的困境所以目前你們針對寄養家庭你們也已經有在這個檢討就是說我們會跟這些相關的這些團體來討論到底他們碰到的困境是什麼樣因為寄養家庭有他的歷史背景他主要都是有善心的這些人士願意來提供這樣子的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14449.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14468.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
但是他之所以沒有辦法再經營下去沒有辦法再收這個小孩子過來照顧的話那到底碰到的這個困難是什麼當然如果說寄養家庭逐漸的市委是一定的趨勢大概不可逆的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14469.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14494.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
那我們就要考慮說怎麼樣去發展其他的這種就是說小孩子安置的這些資源有什麼替代的方案其實我們是認為他如果可以在這個寄養家庭的話總是在比機構還好啦我們是這麼覺得所以就是說我們也希望剛剛部長講的就是針對寄養家庭這個招募的困難應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14495.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14519.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
禁訴到底是什麼樣的原因?當然有的寄養家庭,其實我也碰過幾個寄養家庭的爸爸媽媽在講就是說其實他們也覺得說責任很大那另外其實整個資源其實也不是那麼足夠所以我們希望就是說讓這個社安網能夠更齊全的話第一個我覺得這個資源應該是要更足夠這樣子因為目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14520.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14528.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
那個家庭的規模是一直在縮小所以單一個寄養家庭的話要去承擔這種額外的照顧的責任的話的確會越來越困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14532.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14559.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
那部長應該前幾天我們看到這個兒童福利聯盟有召開記者會那有說他們的缺失是怎樣那我想請教除了兒童福利聯盟之外那其他的媒合機構會不會也碰到這樣的一個問題可能就是內部機合不是那麼不是那麼充足或者是會有一些缺失我是認為應該不只兒童福利聯盟應該連其他的這個媒合機構應該也要一併去檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14562.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14586.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
對,我們這個就是會去排這個排程,一個一個去了解當然我們不希望未來還有這樣的事情發生所以這個媒合機構,我們知道這個媒合機構其實都蠻辛苦的只是要怎麼讓這個整個制度能夠更完善另外我想請教就是說,針對這個凱凱的這個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14590.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14615.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
其實我們知道這個原本這個就是一個脆弱的家庭那當然就是說新北社福中心他這個凱凱事件他可能他只有訪視這個外祖母那他沒有去訪視這個這個離開家庭的這個兒童所以我會覺得很奇怪就是說應該以兒童最佳的利益的話應該社工或者是這個應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14618.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14639.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
地方政府應該要去訪視除了這個原生家庭之外應該也要去訪視他後來的這個保姆這邊那為什麼會沒有去做訪視這個是我覺得很訝異也很奇怪的那未來是怎麼樣去落實這方面因為中央應該是督導的單位那怎麼去落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14641.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14669.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
本來在脆弱家庭就有規定每月要去訪視一次但是我想新北市大概有一點誤解他以為是就這個家庭裡面有去訪視一部分就OK了他沒有去思考說其中有一個成員已經脫離家庭分別的所以那一個就沒有去做訪視我覺得這是一個缺點當然另外一個比較大的問題是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14670.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14689.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
如果說這個小孩子有原來的一個保母在照顧的時候那因為兒童福利聯盟去判斷說要交給另外一個保母那這樣子的話據兒童福利聯盟的報告裡面是有說有跟社福中心也就是新北市去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14690.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14713.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
但是怎麼樣下這個決定這個是非常大的一個問題所以在這部分的話我也相信未來新北市社會局應該會做改善我們當然不只是新北或北市、臺北市其他縣市應該也是這樣子就是說它原本是在保母 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14714.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14714.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14733.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14745.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
衛福部真的是蠻辛苦的,除了醫療、社福、食安,全部都在衛福部這邊,真的是非常的辛苦。所以我們希望未來不要再有這件事情發生。 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14750.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14751.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
接下來請陳培宇委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14783.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14784.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
主席、邀請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14791.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14815.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
好,部長午安快速跟您討論一下社安網那上一次部長其實也有在這個質詢的時候您親口承諾您說了失去原生家庭功能的小孩是國家的責任家外安置照顧系統也是國家的責任那我們往下來看目前你們的業務報告裡面提到未來你們之前有說在行政院會的時候衛福部指出未來等待出養的兒少將會適用委託安置流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14818.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14832.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
那相關的安置照顧會有地方政府來安排?相關的安置經費會有地方政府來支應?中央將予以協助?我想要問一下光是這段話目前部長你有聽到地方政府任何的回饋或者是反應嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14834.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14859.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
這部分的話當然我們目前提出來是這個樣子那在出養的必要性評估的這部分的話其實是我們有找地方政府跟專家討論過那大部分的縣市政府都願意肯認這也是他們的工作當然有些地方政府是沒有那麼強烈的願意支持但是目前大家都 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14859.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14876.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
目前大概都可以理解說這一個我相信在未來的話應該不會有太大的阻力所以會持續溝通嘛那一旦有相關的業務到身上其實就會有經費的問題所以關於經費的部分也都跟縣市政府都談好了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14878.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14906.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
這個部分的話應該是在我們未來這個所謂社安網2.0的部分的話就會來做處理啦那需要增加經費包括剛剛委員一開始提到的那一個國家的責任啦因為重案進入出養的程序並不保證說他一定會出養沒錯沒錯這個大家都清楚所以但是原生家庭已經沒有辦法照顧了啊對所以你國家的責任就在那裡當然就要進來齁那如果能夠出養當然是最好 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14907.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14929.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
若有人來接手若沒有的話你國際責任還在我覺得部長今天講得非常的清楚而且態度也非常的明確我相信所有在第一線的工作人員聽到部長這樣的承諾都會非常的放心但是其實有一個困境為什麼我剛剛特別問縣市政府因為我們都知道地方政府的財政其實有分等級相對充裕的跟相對困難的那些尤其相對困難的縣市會不會其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14931.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14934.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就 «出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告》 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14957.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14976.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
這部分當然是依照社安網本身的一個財力分級有不同的補助的比例這個部分我們就希望後續的配套措施可以做得更加積極跟地方政府只要他們願意反應問題他們願意解決問題我相信衛福部這邊一定會給予大力的支持透過社安網2.0 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14978.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14998.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
我今天尤其要跟部長再往下討論關於0到6歲孩子的部分尤其是如果他們進入所謂的安置機構不管他是寄養家庭安置機構或者是保姆等等為什麼要針對0到6除了大家對凱凱事件的關心之外其實我們照顧孩子經驗都知道0到6歲的小孩照顧其實比起學0後可能有更多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14999.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
15000.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
15025.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
15050.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
我們來看一下其他的數字是全臺灣目前可以照顧0到6歲小孩的安置教養機構61間相關機構合併床位數2394位已經安置了1411位其中我們看到有337位是0到6歲的小孩我們看起來好像有983個空床位看起來資源好像是夠可是我要跟部長先行提醒另外一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
15050.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
15070.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
15070.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
15092.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
三個小孩以外加上他自己負責的小孩也就是那個工作量突然就變多其實這個問題已經存在目前的安置機構現場我不知道部長您知不知道因為後續的很多配套我覺得還要花很多時間討論但我們希望部長先知道這個狀況是,我想這個狀況我是粗略的有了解啦那也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
15093.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
15119.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
安置的機構就機構化基本上現在並不是主流啦對我知道就是有內家的部分小家對那部分是在承接的是比較多但是安置機構雖然說CRC並不是很同意說用這種方式可是CRC也有告訴我們可以服應臺灣目前的狀況但是他仍然是一個必要的所以在這個部分的話我想我們對會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
15120.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
15125.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就 «出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告》 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
15136.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
15136.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
接下來請張雅玲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
15177.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
15177.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
教育部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
15187.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
15202.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
部長好,那就是我們今天還是來針對社安網的一些檢討來做一些討論,那就是目前呢,我們其實是有做一個七大缺失的一個檢討,那我想我今天,等我一下,警報出來了,我們就針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
15204.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
15230.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
社安網其中的兩個說要檢討的缺失來做討論第一個就是收出養制度以及拘托人員管理制度那我想先在討論這件事情我們先來討論一下法規面我們的《額上全法》第17條是這樣子說的就是說依據前項的第一款規定進行仿試者應評估出養之必要性並給予相關的協助那如果沒有出養的必要的話就建議法 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
15231.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
15258.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
而不為收養之任可所以這關鍵就在於出養的必要性的定義到底是什麼那我想根據一些相關的期刊、論文都在討論就是說應該要評估除了經濟條件之外也要去考量他的身心狀況那像是這個額蒙在萬國法律也有說就是說要考量心理健康這件事情是比外職條件更重要的我想部長您應該非常清楚這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
15260.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
15283.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
但是我們現在已經非常清楚了必要性是在這個可是我們現在看到了這一個檢討報告這檢討報告新北市社會局說專家檢視都有一線性的法令來辦理而且我知道當時阿嬤是說是因為經濟因素所以看起來我們的評估主因只有經濟因素嗎那這個報告到底是新北市做的還是兒童做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
15284.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
15305.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
所以我想衛福部應該要針對兒少全法去做一個更全面的進行修法的討論這個部分也應該要納入這個考量那也請就是在我們會後再要約時間來討論這個修法的方向跟主軸那繼續請教部長就是這個法規怎麼定那社會可以再做一些討論但是我想很一個重要關鍵地方怎麼執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
15306.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
15308.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
其實我們跟地方的這些關係大部分都基於合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
15322.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
15346.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
那如果有什麼問題的話我們就是來透過協商來處理但是為何這邊對地方的業務仍然有一個所謂的督導考核的一個機制這個考核實際上會有什麼樣子的實質影響嗎?因為我想還是會考量到實質影響才有辦法積極的面對啦少數的話會涉及到補助的部分啦但是多數來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
15349.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
15374.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
我想這也可能是必要手段啦必要手段我想我們這件事情從這件事情上面我們也發現地方政府的確在執行上面有一些我們還需要去積極檢討的地方那我也希望衛福部可以用必要時候相關的工具啦因為這樣才能夠確保我們在第一線的時候真的可以接住我們每一個孩子我們都不需要再有下一個凱凱那我們必須真的要強硬的來做這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
15375.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
15400.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那再來就是針對於居家的托育人員的一些檢討我們現在的狀況是這樣子就是說我們會委託各縣市的居托中心來做這些保姆的管理那如果這件事情沒有牽扯到收出養就會回到一般的全日托或是一般的日托的狀況那我想問的就是說在這件事情上面我們在這個居托的管理的第18條是有講說一年要訪4次 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
15401.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15429.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那除了就是收託的人數之外其他都是考評是一樣的就是全日託跟一般的都是一樣的那這件事情我想問我們全日託的保母考核是不是可以再強化一點就例如說因為他們是24小時不間斷的勤修勞動我們是不是有相關的輔導機制可以來協助這些保母或者是說我們接受安置的兒少的保母的時候我們可以去強化訓練跟托育的品質的管控呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15430.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15447.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
這件事情我相信政府應該要來做不能夠只有交給一般的民間團體所以部長可以回應一下嗎目前大部分都有這個機制但是委員我要跟你報告這一次臺北市的居托中心他也犯了一個錯誤因為這一個保姆收養是兩個以上的小孩對 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15448.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15464.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
他把它放在不同的樓層這個本身就有問題第二個問題是當他居託中心去做檢查的時候後來發現說其中有的地方是條件是不好的濃濃煙味 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15466.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15482.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
對阿這個為什麼不是第一次他去檢查的時候為什麼只看一樓對他明明知道說還有還有還有他的收託的這個小孩子在同一個建築裡面阿對應該要一起去看而且是同一個保姆阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15483.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15504.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
了解了解那我想問說執行有問題的話對那就是回到我們上面講的嘛我們法規這樣子定那地方執行不利的時候我們應該有一些積極的作為啦因為這樣才能夠真正的去接觸我們每一個孩子那抱歉我再佔用一點點時間喔就是說因為我們在我們的法律法裡面是有我們目前的法是沒有規定不約訪這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15505.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15506.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
進行專題報告進行專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15521.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15539.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
未來就是我們現在修這個托育專法是不是可以增訂居托中心不約訪的訪視條文我們是不是可以增訂這一點不要再用公文的方式來通知各個保姆所以我們用不約訪的路法來強化它的正當性這個部分可不可以請部長來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15541.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15558.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這個在這個專法的草案裡面討論的時候是沒有討論到不過委員的意見我們會做斟酌這個部分我希望還是可以去強制的去思考好不好就是因為必須我想約訪就可能會有一些可以做好準備的 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15558.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15572.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
可是不約訪才能夠真正的面對那個問題才能夠真正的去照顧到我們每一個小孩這一點再請部長去審慎的思考把它放入專法裡面那我也會在我的版本提出這個條例那到時候也請部長支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15576.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15588.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
謝謝張雅琳委員接下來請賴世寶委員、賴世寶委員、賴世寶委員不在接下來請徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈委員不在接下來請陳盈委員發言謝謝主席麻煩請部長請薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15606.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15626.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
部長好,在2016年長照2.0開始後,有關於文件占照服員薪水發放這件事,我在衛環委員會及內政委員會已經質詢過非常多次。部長,你知道今年2月農曆年,文件占照服員差點又沒有薪水可以過年嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15628.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15644.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
後來我有了解這部分的話其實是那個那個人民會那邊的計畫跟他的一個補正的資料的話來得太慢了所以我們這只能在農曆年前的幾天才能夠把錢撥下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15646.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15669.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
他們說你們的問題,你們說他們的問題那就是私信啊我的私信就是我二月初接到文件站的陳情那表示說,協會還沒有收到今年第一期的經費那這次的狀況是因為二月八號就放假過年那他們是很怕沒有辦法發薪水給教福員 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15670.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15670.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
進行專題報進行專題報進行專題報 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15695.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15723.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
二月八號是過年的年假一直追的結果就是二月五號人民會的帳戶收到經費因為剛剛部長二月六號然後人民會趕快把錢匯到各縣市政府二月七號各縣市政府趕快把錢匯到文件站的協會那這一天已經是連假的前一天那一般連假前一天其實大家就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15723.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15727.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就 «出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告》 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15742.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15760.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
趕著跑銀行匯薪水給教服務員那部長剛剛講說原民會的送的計畫太慢那他們照理來講應該都要幾號之前在去年112年的這個預算的監會他在111年的12月23就來申請了 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15768.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15796.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
但是今年的113年的經費的話他是在今年的1月3號才來申請所以這個中間的話其實一開始就慢了那1月3號來申請之後我們要求他把文件補齊所以1月16號才把文件補齊然後1月26號才抽範領據因為領據金額又有不一樣那所以在1月26號我們就核定出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15797.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15823.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
所以那個部長你剛剛說照理來講那原民會理應要在什麼時候?去年年底的時候就要來申請了去年年底就是比如12月31號之前他們就要申請?對啊因為往年也是這個樣子啊好那所以到1月3號就是慢了三天就是會影響到整個的?前一年的話是12月23他就來申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15826.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15832.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就 «出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告》 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15845.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15849.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
一月三號的時候沒有把文件補齊嗎?所以什麼時候才補齊?一月十六號才補齊文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15861.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15876.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
一月十六號才補齊文件然後後來我們又發現說原來的領據的金額跟核定的金額又不一樣所以又來抽換領據當天我們就核發出去好所以一月十六號抽換領據二月二十六 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15877.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15892.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
二月二十六號,一月二十六號,抽換領據。我想是這樣子,今天不管是哪個單位的部分卡住,因為在 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15895.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15911.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
因為我這邊了解的過程原民會1月3號發函給衛福部嘛那至於就是說抽換狀況怎麼樣或許他們沒有老實講但是呢我覺得未來要避免這樣子的狀況就是說不管是怎麼樣因為總是 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15912.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15913.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
對,所以前一年的年底就應該要來申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15941.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15966.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
這樣大家有比較多的餘裕來可以來補救那些如果說文件不齊全的這個部分對那所以我想這個部分我想或許下一次也應該兩個單位一起我們再互相幫忙或許他們也需要幫忙那我們就幫幫他們那時間到了那因為這個你知道兆福有多少人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15968.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15977.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
文件站的一千多捏那一千多的沒有如期領到薪水的話那就是一千多個家庭耶所以這個部分那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15979.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
16004.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
就是等於是說好那是不是時間到年底了阿如果他們都還沒有送件那是不是你們這裡也可以稍微追一下關心一下我們有跟原民會的副首長的一個副首長我們的次長跟原民會的副主委有一個定期的聯繫的會報我想在那個部分我們再來做一個提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
16004.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
16028.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
我想這次你們的定期應該沒有討論到這個問題不然我要拿來這裡講老半天就有人民會的問題那這樣也很漏氣所以他們漏氣不是我漏氣我就負責追檢所以這個部分也拜託衛福部可以再多協助萬一他們真的慢幾天也請你們趕工一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
16029.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
16049.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
好那未來對剛剛講說這個定期會議的部分來做一下檢討那也把種種可能發生的情況大家討論討論然後避免這樣子的狀況發生那另外我要再請教一下就是這個月初衛福部有宣布取消了2010年公佈的這個掛號費參考的標準範圍那我非常支持說 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
16053.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
16059.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
此舉會不會對於偏鄉醫療的權利就是一種雪上加霜的一個狀況因為民眾都很擔心未來的這個掛號費會不會亂漲那會不會漲得不像樣那當時部長的回答是說就讓它回歸到這個市場機制那部長你有提到這個嘛回歸到市場機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
16083.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
16110.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
報告委員我說原則上回到市場機制但是對於偏鄉如果是它有形成寡占市場的部分我們還是要介入好 這個我也理解但是因為我想要講的就是說所謂回歸到市場機制有一個前提就是說它必須是要在一個完全競爭的市場對 要有多多的競爭者也就是說消費者呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
16111.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
16137.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
有這個完整的選擇權利那可是我們偏鄉裡面呢整個鄉鎮可能就只有一間或兩間診所他偏鄉的居民沒有選擇的權利那如果說掛號費提高到超過水準然後我們才要來關注沒有這個我們因為隨時他掛號費要這一個調整的時候其實我們現在有建立有健保署那邊有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
16139.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
16163.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
對,因為我們當時有請教議事司啦就是說如果遇到這個狀況你們的回答是說如果遇到後有個案我們再來瞭解處理所以這樣的回答我就會質疑那宣布政策之前都沒有想過說可能發生的情況那應該有什麼樣的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
16165.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
16193.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
因為在偏鄉有醫療資源可靜性的問題其實是很難解決那如果再有就是說調漲這個掛號費那民眾要增加支出其實是非常不公平的啦那為了但是為了要留住而且鼓勵偏鄉的基層醫療院所我是同意增加他們的收入但是我不同意增加民眾的醫療支出我只是在我們那種前提之下因為我們去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
16193.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
16193.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
進行專題報 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
16218.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
16228.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
但是到底怎麼樣才是一個合理的價錢?這個也要考慮到譬如說偏鄉拉部落的大家的工作狀態收入是怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
16229.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
16250.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
所以在我們當初做那個公告的時候,我們就特別強調一定要去防止這個聯合壟斷。第二個就是對偏鄉,如果他是一個寡占或獨占,他就給他一間或者兩家,這種情形的話我們要特別去注意,可能我們就會去做管理、管制。 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
16251.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
16273.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
因為目前我們還不太清楚有什麼樣的管制方式除了就是說要登記以外因為我一方面委員放心這我們一定可以有辦法提早讓我們知道安心一下不然我們整天追著這個問題跑好那就是時間也到再會後請那個部長再跟我們告知一下好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
16275.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
16295.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
好 謝謝陳英委員接下來請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在接下來請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝主席 有請部長請薛部長部長好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
16304.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
16325.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
部長今天針對主席排的這個專案還有另外在建立一個實案的問題還是要再提醒部長跟部長來討論我先請教部長凱凱案是不是確定符合這個脆弱家庭的服務對象是是嘛那新北市社福中心有訪視外租母家的時候就凱凱的外租母家的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
16326.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
16344.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
針對被兒童安置到臺北市的凱凱,新北市到底有沒有持續訪視的責任還有義務?理論上應該有,必須要去追,如果說他因為跨峽不方便的話,那應該要透過跟臺北市的聯繫,然後把案子轉給臺北市有規範需要訪視到幾次嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
16346.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
16348.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
新北市的社福中心從來沒有去法治過 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
16376.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
16394.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
從來沒有去皇室到連一次都沒有就對了而且他也沒有通知臺北市說這個是催家的兒童催後家庭兒童他也沒有通知臺北市這個是改改是催後家庭的兒童所以臺北市這邊也沒有辦法接手說一個月去一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
16395.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
16411.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
好,也變成臺北市也因為這樣也沒有去履行他應該我們所訂的相關的一些規範嘛就最少一個月去一次就對了就三個月反正就沒有臺北市跟新北市的相關的市府中心人去做訪視有去看而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
16411.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
16437.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
好沒關係好那這件事情是這樣嘛母親在懷孕期間凱凱的媽媽在懷孕的時候有聯繫到兒童福利聯盟做相關的諮詢在生產之後又與兒女簽下這個出養的合約所以在懷孕與生產期間兒童到底有沒有去積極的輔導媽媽還是讓他有改變的這樣的心意留下孩子自己照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16438.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16447.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
兒童福利聯盟是因為那個合約還沒有簽妥,這一個媽媽後來就失聯了對,他是在生產後簽的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16449.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16473.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
他那時候有表達這個意願也簽了啦,兒童福利聯盟也接手了但是後來要,因為這個會牽涉到後面的出養的法律程序的問題結果媽媽就聯繫不到了,後來兒童福利聯盟就把他結案掉小孩子就回到他們的原生家庭由外祖母去找這個保母來照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16475.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16496.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
這中間的話新北市的社福中心的話就積極的跟這個外祖母去聯繫希望改定監護人因為媽媽已經不見了所以希望說外祖母來做監護人那外祖母如果同意當監護人的時候他就可以再重啟所謂的出養的一個程序這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16503.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16517.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
外祖母已經成為監護人這樣的一個資格之後那這個確診程序他就可以再啟動但是外祖母那一天我們討論嘛我是這樣來比對嘛外祖母 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16517.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16543.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
他我們了解確實有經濟上的困難嘛對不對但是這個他本身也有幫這凱凱拼到一個他們可以信賴的保姆嘛應該是這樣嘛然後好像這個外出門也特別提出說是不是一樣給這個保姆然後希望有補助類似這樣的一個訴求嘛對不對為什麼為什麼就那天部長打呼我的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16547.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16566.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
從錢的角度來看的話的確是有這樣的差距但是是不是他就是主要的原因這個我們並沒有說很清楚不過從兒童聯盟他們的報告裡面有提到過當時在換手也就是從第三個保姆到第四個保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16568.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16592.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
這一個過程當中他有跟新北市的社福中心有討論過但是新北市的社福中心的報告裡面都沒有提到這件事情所以到底有沒有討論並不清楚理論上來講的話如果要這一個原來的這一個外祖母所聘用的這一個保母已經在照顧的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16593.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16619.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
要轉手到另外一個保姆的話應該是要做非常謹慎的評估因為他已經照顧一年了那後來新北市給我們的報告裡面提到說未來的改進措施的時候也在建議說這個保姆就是說這個照顧者跟這個小孩子應該要有更好的一個關係醫護關係啊這個就互相矛盾了 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16620.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16643.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
真實的案件你說這個兒童福利聯盟對這件事情的說明是說因為這個原來的這個周姓保姆的話跟小孩子有太多的界限不分明但是新北市的報告裡面又說要建立依附關係這互相的矛盾啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16644.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16664.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
所以我很認真在聽你的敘述啊我再聽矛盾的事情竟然還要聽這麼久,我也變成矛盾了所以最後的話我們為什麼在我們今天的檢討報告裡面對新北市的我們這一點就提出質疑阿到底你是要怎樣?阿是要讓他有依附關係? |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16665.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16690.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
是對小孩子比較好還是說不要有太甚的醫護關係所以讓他出養時比較不會造成一種阻礙所以部長這個你們要慎重非常嚴謹的去徹查吧新北市到底是怎樣去評估這樣的一個脆弱家庭沒有資料對沒有資料嘛對這問題就非常嚴重了嘛這是一條生命 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16693.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16702.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
我再來急需請教部長這是新北市的這個部長一定要非常的嚴謹去徹查要把這個真相公諸於世 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16704.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16731.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
臺北市有送到四一會的一個專案報告中有提到這個流行保姆在一百年的七月考取保姆人員技術證的資格在這個資料可以部長參閱了並於一百一十一年檢護三個月內警察請示記錄證明、體檢報告等向社會局提出登記證的申請並告知申請保姆是為了並告知喔並告知來申請保姆是為了符合兒母合作保姆資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16733.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16733.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
特別講到這句話紅線的部分然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16738.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16765.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
臺北市的報告說本市居家托育服務中心到流女的托育地也進行四項的環境安全檢核所以也在111年的11月10號荷花居家市的托育服務證書這個流程沒問題對不對但是我們在此之前在委員會還有看到相關的一些資料我們都會以為說兒童聯盟早上證明有合格執照的流性保母 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16766.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16777.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
好像兒五主動去找他的但其實好像不然我看這個樣子好像是這個保姆在取得服務資格前應該就已經跟兒五聯盟有某種程度上的連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16780.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16795.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
這實際上的原因我們是不清楚啦就是說他去申請保姆的資格是只有for這一個兒童福利聯盟的合作還是還有其他的原因因為事實上他總共收了三個小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16797.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16819.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
那其中有一個是這個不是這一種安置的所以看起來也不完全是為了只是要照顧兒童福利聯盟所轉介過來的但是他還沒有取得這個托育服務證書之前他去申請他又特別講到就是要符合兒童合作保母的資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16820.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16845.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
但是這應該只是原因之一啦因為事實上他收的不完全都是兒童我想不論兒童的孩子或是任何一個機構的孩子本身會轉介到機構中這樣的一個照顧就會有層次上的不一樣嘛應該是這樣子嘛也就是說這樣的孩子他在原生家庭就已經出了問題嘛所以照顧上就不是一般的保母可以去照顧嘛所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16847.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16873.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
你看那個媒體報導喔,寫說尋問牛女的動機,這個保母動機他還理直氣壯地回說別人的小孩的父母親都會好好巴結保母希望保母能夠好好照顧小孩,這部長應該有看到吧然後,但是這個小孩沒有爸爸媽媽在,沒有人來巴結他所以他一看到小孩就想揍他他一直為了錢在口中,要不是為了孫中山他根本不想照顧他 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16874.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16900.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
怎麼有這種人啊?這個就應該是已經是屬於這個小朋友的家庭社會人格偏差對嘛,不是,他就是這是一個催促家庭的小朋友然後又有父親也不曉得去向然後母親也通緝中這個小朋友遇到這個狀況已經讓人家很心疼了怎麼還會遇到遇到真的伯母有這樣的心態 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16902.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16921.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
這個根本沒有做好這個兒童機構聘用保姆的一個最少的一個基本的條件嗎?對啦,不過像這種的反社會人格的,老實講的話,你平常你還是看不出來,因為他不會寫在這裡說我...不是啊,但是他說出來的,在這裡也出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16924.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16948.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
應該是沒有啦應該是沒有?你們是揣測還是調查?應該沒有講清楚是沒有還是應該沒有?這四個是有落差?我們沒有接到這一類的通報三個有一個是很快就已經出養另外一個是社區的這一個部分那一個的小孩子應該是沒有看到有通報所以主要是凱凱這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16951.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16979.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
我們兒務機構在找保姆應該有一定程度的一個規範嘛對不對你衛務部還有頒布一個叫慈祥縣市運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則嘛這都是你們當時的規範嘛這處理的原則第三點就提到主管機關得自行或委託相關專業機構團體辦理下列事項第一建立至少病建立病至少每六個月盤點適合照顧安置個案之居托人員名單這個有做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16991.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
17005.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
這個部分臺北市他們認為他們現在的安置資源已經足夠了,包括機構包括寄養家庭,所以他們目前就沒有這份的名單,沒有去建立這樣的名單我們不是有個處理原則,所以它是原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
17009.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
17029.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
對,就是如果他要運用安置資源要運用到保姆的話那我們要請他要依這個原則來辦理那臺北市覺得他們資源夠了沒有要用到保姆所以他們就沒有所以今天資源夠還發生這樣的事情這叫資源夠了這些機構小朋友家庭背景上我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
17030.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
17053.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
他本身就是有些問題嘛在照顧上就是要比照顧一般小朋友要更專業嘛對不對所以你們第三點又提到喔主管機關要提供這個居托人員照顧家外安置兒童的相關專業的訓練嘛第一點也規定經主管機關交付安置個案之居托人員與首次照顧安置個案前接受職前訓練課程建立至少要6小時對嗎他這有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
17061.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
17079.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
因為現在兒童福利聯盟用的這個保姆他並不是在這個原則下所建立的保姆名單那為什麼沒有這個名單因為臺北市覺得不需要去建立他的安置資源已經夠了所以目前這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
17081.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
17103.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
有出這個事件的這個保姆他其實是不在這個原則下有接受訓練過的保姆你看我該怎麼再問你們我覺得這樣講好像很奇怪他的資源足夠了所以他就不需要來遵守這樣的原則所以導致這樣的一個小朋友就出了這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
17104.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
17130.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
因為這個是新北然後出養那他是請兒童那兒童他就自己去找保姆對所以就這個保姆就沒有接受過這個訓練的那他也沒有去跟臺北市說有沒有比較好的一個保姆他也沒有去做這樣一個詢問不是喔次長你這樣保姆好像說新北市他去臺北市 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
17130.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
17135.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就 «出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告》進行專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
17152.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
17169.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
我想這個是委託安置啦那也就是說臺北市認為他可能說他的機構是夠的他的寄養價值是夠的所以他不需要再用保母來做這一種安置所以他基本上就沒有提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
17170.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
17193.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
現有的保姆系統去做接受這種政府委託安置的case,他就沒有去做這個訓練所以部長跟社會保護就是有這樣的一個盲點嗎?對,但是事實上像今天這個case是新北市這邊介紹過來的,跑到臺北市來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
17194.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
17215.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
臺北市就沒有用這種居家托育的系統來做安置法所以譬如說兒童福利聯盟就自己找一般的保母來做這個安置問題就在這個地方這些一般的保母並沒有去接受這種特殊的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
17217.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
17243.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
你這樣,部長你這樣打呼我,就又發生兩個盲點,一個是公務機關,一個是這個兒童機構,通通一直存在這種盲點,這個盲點到底要怎麼解決?今天如果沒有這兩個盲點,可能就沒有這件事情嗎?因為你們第五點又寫這樣嘛,監管機關交付安置個案追劇動員,於首次照顧安置個案前接受諮詢訓練要6個小時嘛,對不對?然後安置個案的類型,創傷經驗及問題輔導, |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
17245.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
17265.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
這個要比一般保姆的質詢還要專業課程所以我們未來等於說未來要做的事情就要補好這一塊第一個如果要接受這種政府委託的家外安置的case的時候你應該要受到比較強的一個教育訓練那第二個這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
17267.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
17289.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
如果有跨峽的時候一定要把這個訊息送過去因為如果我們假設嘛如果今天新北市有把這個他屬於翠家所以他需要另外的一個安置這個訊息有給臺北市臺北市說我沒有保姆來做這件事情因為我不需要但是我有寄養家庭那這個小孩子就會跑到寄養家庭去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
17290.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
17313.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
根本就不會發生今天的事情所以他前置認定他支援足夠後置他該做的動作也沒有去做了簡單講就這樣嘛我請部長就好好反正把它查得清清楚楚啦好不好然後該補的該把這個盲點把它去除掉也是要去除掉了吧我最後一個問題主席已經站起來了因為時間關係齁我還針對這個實案的問題我那一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
17317.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
17336.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
我實在我在講的話可能大家就把它聽進去了而且我最討厭我有提醒的事情明明我們可以去做一些防範然後不夠積極這樣就不好因為我現在不是在講食安署沒有做這個事情我是說食安的這種東西會拖啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
17337.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
17344.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
今天這個事情我不曉得衛福部昨天有開啦就針對這個保齡茶室被表示可能是這個米酵菌酸嘛對不對應該造成這次阻音嘛然後我們實驗室的檢驗可能要兩週才可以確定嘛是不是可以加快一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
17365.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
17393.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
因為這個這麼廣泛的一個這個拿到了我們就趕快來進行開始做檢驗但是因為目前其他的物質引起來的中毒的可能性也沒有排除所以其他物質包括農藥等等這一些我們就先做了好我再要提醒一點如果根據食安法的這個13條規定經專管公告類別及規模支持品業者應該投保產品的責任保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
17395.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
17423.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
這個我們會去開罰,這一個部分的話我們會請...不是不是,有投保嗎?他有投保,但是保險到期他沒有續保。那怎麼辦?而且你現在續保他,我的訊息他是3月底就要結束營業,不是他要照啊?但是他現在就要,所以馬上就是要去做...他是去年10月就到期了嗎?對。去年10月喔?對。那本年已經進了第一季喔,他第一季就要結束營業喔?對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
17425.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
17441.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
你那麼可以依據47條去處3萬元以上、3百萬元以下罰款嗎?對不對?那情節中大者還可以歇業嗎?停業嗎?停業已經對他沒有意義了所以現在就是要去罰款我覺得現在連罰款都可能也罰不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
17442.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
17469.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
有沒有啟動防拖的機制?因為你先要做處分出去的話,那如果沒有什麼太大問題,我們直接就做那個行政執行嘛。對。就進入強制執行。是不是該啟動那個防拖的機制?對。對啊,不然這些已經因為這樣過往的,還有在醫院的。我們會跟臺北市衛生局會跟他提醒。好,請部長具體掌握啦,好不好?好。好,謝謝主席,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
17473.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17497.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
謝謝 有必要請衛福部會後再向委員說明好 那我們本日會議詢答全部結束委員黃珊珊、楊耀、邱政軍、張祺凱、陳冠廷委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢及未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17500.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17506.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
委員令要求其限者從其所定本次會議到此結束現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17528.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17543.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就 «出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告》進行專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17561.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17566.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
並備質詢。 |