| IVOD_ID |
15765 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15765 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-27T08:30:49+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-27T12:31:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:00:11 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d25f9b1f895064d3b4d6e69b556667bbc3be8d109af184be40ae07aaa85d995535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用的現況及發展」，併請行政院國土安全辦公室列席，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:49 - 12:31:00 |
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14386.28909375 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1981.121 |
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1992.173 |
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報告委員會：初期委員10人以主法定人數好我們開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1994.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2015.641 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議．事由．時間中華民國113年3月21日星期四上午9時1分至12時15分．點紅樓山林議會議室出席委員馬文君等11人．列席委員吳佩義等13人．列席人員國家安全局局長蔡明彥及所屬人員． |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2016.521 |
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2041.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
海洋委員會海巡署署長朱梅武﹖內政部警政署署長黃明周﹖移民署署長鍾景坤﹖法務部調查局局長王俊麗﹖國防部憲兵指揮部指揮官鄭真祥等﹖主席馬州級委員文軍﹖包括事項一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定。二、邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥遂相關情報機關首長提出國家情報工作及國家安全局﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2042.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2058.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
業務報告：並備質詢本次會議採報告及選達先秘密後公開方式進行國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告委員沈博洋等13人質詢均由國家安全局局長蔡明彥海洋委員會海巡署署長鍾梅武內政部警政署署長黃明昭 |
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2059.642 |
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2086.238 |
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法務部調查局局長王俊麗及國防部先兵指揮部指揮官鄭真祥等即席答覆。決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束。二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未即答覆或要求提供資資訊．請相關機關於二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會。委員另指定其限則從其鎖定。三委員陳永康黃仁及黃傑等三人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。 |
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2087.319 |
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2089.401 |
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修正通過臨時提案一案 宣讀完畢 |
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2119.565 |
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2139.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好我們先介紹在場委員我們陳永康委員來請坐黃蓉委員還有羅美玲委員那另外我們在場的與會官員由我們國防部部長邱國正部長副參謀總長執行官鄭榮峰陸軍常務次長楊基榮 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2148.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2175.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
權動署署長 白潔龍總督察長 市總督察長 李兆銘政務辦公室主任 廖建新政戰局局長 陳玉玲軍備局局長 林文祥主計局局長 謝祺賢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2181.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2207.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
軍醫局局長蔡劍松．政規司司長李世強．職規司司長鄧克雄．法律事務司司長沈世偉．整評司司長苗慧芬．國防採購室主任趙雅萍． |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2211.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2223.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
人事參謀次長是次長劉佩智情報參謀次長是次長顏有賢座次是次長陳文新後勤參謀次長是次長陳道輝通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長盧建宗 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2241.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2244.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
訓次市次長張俊志陸軍參謀長陳建義海軍參謀長邱俊榮空軍參謀長曹敬平後備指揮部參謀長薛淵全 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2267.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2271.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
更正,剛才是後備指揮部參謀長再來,縣指部參謀長呂正芳陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長劉清薰支通電軍指揮部參謀長陳俊良軍情局第一處處長鄧敦仁電展室副主任萬鴻升 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2298.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2317.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
中科院院長張忠誠另外我們今天特別請行政院國土辦公室主任林潔列席因為我們上次有關前線列嶼當時的無人機滋擾事件當時是由國土辦有介入協助處理也許今天會有委員想要詢問來您請坐 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2321.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2329.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
本日會議邀請國防部部長、邱國正部長就國軍也就是所謂的軍用無人機運用的現況及發展進行報告並備質詢我們現在請邱部長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2348.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2367.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
主席、各位委員,今天應邀到我們大院委員會來進行專案的報告,專門為委員平常對國防安全的關切跟指導,特別表達誠實的謝意。我想二無戰爭當中,雙方都用了無人機來執行它不管艱深、定位、追蹤還有攻擊的任務。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2368.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2395.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
使得整個作戰的形態也發生很大的一個改變讓無人機在軍事上的應用也受到各國的矚目面對我們戰場環境的變化以及中共日益增加武力的一個威脅我們光顧除了參考俄國戰爭經驗跟無人機運用的形態來完善建軍的規劃滿足作戰需求來持恆我們戰訓本部的任務然後強化我們戰備整備 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2397.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2398.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
國軍無人機運用現況及發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2426.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2448.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
一、前言,藉近2022年俄烏戰爭及2023年以哈衝突,無人機在戰場環境中可發揮創新不對稱作戰效能,證明其在作戰中能有效縮短目標偵查與攻擊效果評估等作業程序,協力各型主戰裝備發揚火力。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2451.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2455.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
國軍面對未來的戰場經過多次國安軍事專題的研討規劃籌購多款無人機以其發揮作戰效益現針對運用部署的規劃籌劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2467.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2488.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
籌獲實行的現況以及訓練的做法實施報告。運用部署規劃無人機在作戰任務中主要提供目標的獲得、標定、追蹤、戰果評估及攻擊等能力,一、量大、價廉、可消耗、即爭即擋等原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2489.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2513.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
平時可分擔國軍各部隊執行海空監偵及巡邏等耗時﹐高風險任務﹐降低人員負荷及裝備的損耗﹐暫時可支援各作戰階段任務﹐發揮作戰效益。無人機亦作戰的任務﹐航程、導控距離及機型、重量等的不同﹐區分為聯戰、戰術及戰鬥層級來運用。說明如何? |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2519.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2535.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
一、連戰層級導控距離150公里以上無人機部署在空軍以及海軍部隊主要執行本島周邊海空域徵收監視任務運用大型無人機執行長時間遠航程聯合監偵任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2540.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2557.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
徵收海上的目標提供早期預警及掌握敵軍的動態所獲得目標匯入指管系統建立共同作戰圖像令運用反輻射無人攻擊機遠程長置攻的能力徵獲第一雷達訊號員後實施攻擊二 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2561.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2569.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
戰術層級導控距離20到150公里的無人機部署在三軍各個部隊與聯合階級及國土防衛階段執行戰場徵收、火力協調與評估任務。關五一 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2575.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2599.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
一百到一百五十公里的無人機．對海上目標實施徵收及識別．將敵船團位置傳送至指揮中心．提供各型反競飛彈．精確目標位置．20到100公里無人機．徵收敵登陸部隊．將所獲的情資回傳指管中心．增加各式武器目標獲得的手段。戰鬥層級 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2603.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2624.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
導控距離20公里以下無人機部署於三軍的基層部隊提供部隊跨越陸上地形障礙兼增的能力降低人員損耗以及提高建制武器攻擊的效益並以攻擊型的無人機對征服目標立即實施攻擊報告五一5至20公里 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2624.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2643.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
小型攻擊無人機．對爭獲的敵地面目標．實施即爭即打及戰果回報。國澳五二五公里以下無人機．用於小部隊徵收任務．所獲的影像形式提供部隊運用．增加建制武器打擊效益。三籌獲執行現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2645.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2669.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
為快速形成戰力採中科院委制國內商購及國外軍購並行的方式來籌購．並結合國科會協助廠商研究開發．經濟部發展國內產業鏈．以國內籌購貨裝為主．國內能量不足的部分在尋求對外軍購．獲得的方式分數如後一、中科院委制 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2672.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2687.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
國軍現有偽中科院製的無人機．戰術進程無人飛行載具、瑞元、紅圈二型及反輻射攻擊無人機等4款。後續規劃偽中科院研製騰雲、瑞元二型 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2688.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2715.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
紅穴三型及小型攻擊無人機等四款．以提升各級部隊戰場情節增及打擊能力。國內商購 採跨部會合作由國科會協助國內廠商研究開發35架原型機目前原型機已驗車合格並作為商規無人機量產採購的餐具。由經濟部發展及整合國防產業鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2719.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2745.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
採國內籌購戰術進程無人載具、陸用型、艦載型、木貨型、兼增型及微型等6款無人機。考量國防及諮詢安全。國家安全法及數位發展部所訂定的各機關對危害國家直通安全產品限制使用的原則,國內採購招標以排除中國大陸地區,第三地區含陸執成分及載台陸執廠商。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2747.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2764.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
4.國防部招標計劃已經在112年12月完成公告,預定在今年的5月完成第一階段無人機實體飛超能力以及資格文件的審查,後續在第二階段以最有利標實施審查,並完成決標。3. |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2764.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2764.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
對外軍購 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2769.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2782.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
針對國內能量不足的部分．以規劃向美採購MQ-9無人機．並完成發家書簽署．預定在115年起貨裝．有助於防禦作戰．任務遂行是訓練做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2784.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2807.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
國軍無人機區分聯戰層級為大型無人機．戰術及戰鬥層級為中小型無人機．相關訓練的做法說明如厚。．一聯戰層級．關五一中科院研製無人機由該院完成操作手冊編撰．及實施接裝培訓．經憑藉合格後合發操作合格證書。．二 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2809.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2828.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
對美方軍購的部分．由空軍責派人員實施接裝訓練．並配合原廠技術代表擴訓．後續參照美方技術命令與操作教範．訂定考評機制．核發簽證．二戰術及戰鬥層級．關於三軍採購各型的無人機．已經在建案的時候．將教育訓練納入規劃與合約商． |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2836.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2851.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
在裝備膠裝前完成操作手膠裝訓練．並取得廠商操作合格簽證。公告五二為培訓國軍無人機施肢總能規劃．這4月份起為民間公司培訓操作手． |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2853.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2871.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
輔導考取民航局無人機專業操作證照．擔任各軍種中小型無人機總指教官未來訓練規劃因應小型無人機操作手的需求日益增多．規劃成立無人機訓練中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2873.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2898.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
將整合基本操作、技能與戰術課程．實施徵收、勤船、打擊．目標導引及射彈修正等實戰化訓練科目．以適應未來作戰形態及敵情威脅．國防委員會將各型無人機納入部隊注定訓練基礎課程．建立官兵對無人機運用的概念．及新興威脅認知與各項處置作為．以發揮無人機作戰效益 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2903.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2919.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
5.捷宇因應無人機發展日新月異相關科技的多樣化運用提供作戰目標獲得、標定及戰果評估與降低人員的傷亡及任務執行負荷為防衛作戰帶來深遠影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2922.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2934.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
國軍積極支持國內產業研發．並參與民間學術交流．其能提高無人機作戰效率與戰術的靈活性．建請委員會與支持國軍無人機籌貨與運用規劃．報告完畢 敬請指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2939.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2965.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
請回謝謝好我們現在開始進行詢答今天詢答的時間本會委員為8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘我們10點半發言截止登記那如果有臨時提案請在10點半之前提出那我們在11點左右會試會議的發言情況來進行處理那我們現在第一位請黃仁委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2974.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3002.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
有請邱部長來 部長請黃委員好是就以現況的國軍無人機通用的現況的發展那我特別提出就是你們剛剛有提出的一個業務報告裡面就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3004.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3032.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
二無戰爭帶給全軍軍事專家最大的啟發就是無人機的運用將可扭轉戰局部長認為國軍無人機發展目前遇到最大的困難是什麼待會你再回答我那首先我國運用無人機發展的起步比較晚相較於共軍很早就投入大量資源在無人機的研發 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3034.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3063.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我國不管在軍用無人機的軟硬體與戰術應用．都和共軍有不小的落差．國軍以二五戰爭前．對於無人機的發展投入有限．主要的資源投入分別為．在長城專案．雲屯專案．瑞哥專案等這一些．你的目前．我們起步的晚．為何．二 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3064.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3072.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
如何達到標準的在你們無人機的規劃之下為何你來回答我一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3073.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3086.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
起步早晚,不要緊,起步因為我們看很多國外經驗,再加上我們國內商業方面無人機運用,其實早就已經在用了。當初對象只針對災防演練去勘災用,現在已經發展到戰場上,我想各國趨勢都如此。 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3095.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3114.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
起步晚不要緊,但我們一步一步在做,在剛剛做的方法也跟委員做報告,不管從中科院本身的研發,或者國外,或者從商購等等各方面的手段都在做,另外我們真的有一些困境,有一些比較精密一點的要爭打一體的等等, |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3115.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3117.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
無人機的發展的困境就是一個發展起步完以共經無人機形成代差 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3144.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3162.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
市場、廠商規模小、難以形成完成的供應鏈等等。按照數據來講,國防部在無人機的操守培訓班招標案在3月8日決標由經緯航太獲得承辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3166.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3190.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
預計今年將培訓320人次每年培訓300人次你說這個標準有沒有標準如果按照數據來講的話有沒有標準標準是有標準定標的但標準能不能達到有旁邊很多外來因素我想這個專案的話要的是請我們待會再舉辦請出產部門來跟您做說明好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3191.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3201.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
報告委員我是蓮山次長那有關目前所訂的320個我們會區分在北中南三個地區分別來施訓後續我們會再依照這個無人機貨裝的這個狀況我們會適時再來增加以及擴訓不是增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3208.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3233.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
在按照數據的標準應該是每一年1000人次而你們現在所訂定的320人次只是一個低標準如果按照以培訓的非所來講的話應該每一年要達到1000人次所以你們這個數據應該要檢討有沒有我講的有沒有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3233.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3261.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
是 那個1000人是我們的一個目標我們會持續朝這個目標再來去做一個加速所以我們起步的晚但是我們希望他的架構跟他的訓練希望能夠趕快如果你今天委託給這個經委行態的這個部分來講的話是不是還有研究的空間第二現在有民間很多這些操守的在玩玩家有沒有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3263.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3291.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
有沒有機會可以結合然後再進入到你們國防培訓之後來善用這一些玩家增加我們這一些飛索的人次有沒有報委員剛才所講的320個我們是希望能夠培訓然後獲得民航局他所核發的證照那至於其他的這個無人機的獲得我們都會已經有定的規定在交裝之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3291.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3312.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
要由比如說中科院大概必須要培訓相關的這些操作人員來滿足我們部隊的需求剛剛我已經講了嘛你們都已經講起步很晚了嘛所以如何因應能夠在起步晚的情況之下能夠達到一個平衡點這個部分是我現在跟你講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3313.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3327.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
因為無人機的信念委託中科業民間與美軍培訓的聯戰層級戰術及戰鬥層級飛行操作所如何建構AI模型能夠發揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3331.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3352.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
一、如何落實單兵即可集成無人機封勤兼爭任務,進而封勤作戰。二、無人機封群建構貴在通信協定的定定如何協調美金,終可以與民間軍工企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3352.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3372.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
落實標準通信協議．同時保有資訊的安全．透過扶持國內無人機自主開發．如何提升軍方演算法與大數據研發人才．在落地台灣．包含定位系統、慣性導航．電子干擾與反干擾等等． |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3373.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3395.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
今天中國大陸擁有全球最多的無人機如何反制中國大陸日益成熟的無人機風情的成群所以這個就是我們現在我們要達到它的標準值如果以320個人每一年的培訓不夠如果今天我本席的建議在民間有很多的高手 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3396.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3402.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
是不是可以結合來做培訓然後進入國防訓練之後那當然這有關於國防機密的問題在訓練的過程當然要嚴加的訓練你說部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3412.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3431.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
委員講得很有道理,但我要跟委員做兩點說明。第一個,國軍這個案子要建案或要採購,它是全案,就包含了裝備獲得之前要完成哪一個訓練,這個全案包在裡面,這是第一個。第二,剛剛委員講得沒有錯,我們從民間招聘來的人, |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3432.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3433.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
你認同我的概念那我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3449.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3463.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
把這些報告在一個禮拜以內是不是可以你們大概的方向剛剛你所提的是不是可以結合民間然後再加以信念然後增加人次 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3465.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3483.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我可以派專人去跟委員做說明這些報告內容要怎麼樣但我要講口頭如果能夠說明完或進一步取得委員到底想知道哪些東西的話我們把它給列為好就是把這個簡單的報告給我好不好那另外就是最近我們吊客的民航大陸的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3485.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3504.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
持續在3月18號金門的福信吳信吊客出海失聯由中國的海警巡獲在19號傳輸路方發現福信吊客據軍人身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3504.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3513.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我方則未證實3月23日完成無線吊客與船艇移交作業復興軍人繼續留置調查我講的是當 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3519.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3531.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我們在發現這個吊客失聯之後由中共軍方獲得情報那為什麼我們我國的軍方還未證實在3月19號的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3534.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3554.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我跟委員報告,這個案子從一發生以後,他就等於請假在外,以釣客的身份,但我們絕對不排斥起來,他不承認他是軍人但當時的界定,就是說以釣客落海,然後被他的海警船帶走,就以這個案子來做一個處理,我們也沒有期望把這個案子隱瞞 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3556.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3557.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
有待檢討是原意上來因為我們的情報及反情報的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3576.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3602.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那我們的敏感度國防是應該是第一個敏感度應該要有的那為什麼到最後你們軍方在3月23號才證實有這麼一回事我跟委員報告不是講說敏感度不夠當初案一發我們就知道了但我剛剛講原因就因為整個部會各部會他處理管道不同我們搭配在那邊來處理不要節外生枝後來都所以了外邊他知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3603.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3608.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
中共的情報19號對於獲得,那我們應該也在同時的時間裡面應該要獲得這個情報才是?沒有錯,他當時掉到海裡面人家帶走我們就知道了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3629.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3653.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我們也想要推這個責任,我們一步一步來,兩岸的狀況委員也很清楚,大家避免想在節外生枝,但是呢,都一個人道的立場來處理的話,我想大家都可以接受。因為2017年就已經發生過這種問題,同樣的問題,所以往後不再發生,好不好?所以我們絕對努力,謝謝委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3657.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3682.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
好謝謝黃仁委員接下來有請昭偉王定宇委員好謝謝主席麻煩邱部長以及政治專案局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3684.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3702.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
邱部長徵戰局局長兩位早部長我一開始讓你看一個我電話其實打了很多次我在詢答你之前剛剛還請助理最新再打了一次你看一下現象來聲音讓他出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3730.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3735.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
您撥的號碼是空號請查明後再撥部長083622064兩位這個電話應該看得出來他在哪裡吧這是馬祖的這是什麼電話我們局長知道嗎新府專線的電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3756.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3776.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
新府專線電話要不要24小時有人接聽是新府電話沒有下班的吧是我們都不希望我們部隊你知道每個弟兄姊妹都是我們的我們家庭的一份子每個人大概大大小小有的是財務有的感情有的我們不知道什麼原因我們都希望照顧好每一位年輕的官士兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3777.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3802.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以新府專線我第一個不講他有沒有效至少他打得通是這個資訊來自於國防部陣戰局提供的服務網欸我們從昨天打到今天都是什麼你知道嗎空號是那我如果需要協助的時候我打去是空號誰知道我打了是空號局長為什麼有這事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3804.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3820.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
跟委員報告一下馬祖地區的部分我去了解一下因為他們的行為中心有做調整那是不是在專線的部分我跟你講我現在秀你這個服務網頁是你們現在的服務網頁號碼不是我去拿舊的是你們現在你現在拿手機出來看就是這個號碼政治作戰局公佈的號碼就是083622064 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3828.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3833.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
現在打它就是空號這兩天社會沸沸揚揚都在檢討這個事情了你們怎麼還會自己提供的服務線還是一個空號然後你不知道原因啊你現在可能應該也不知道為什麼會不會還有其他空號 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3849.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3870.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我們下去了解,因為我們都有要求,我們下去檢討以前在部隊裡面,如果有這個電話,應該上級長官三不五時會派人打一遍嘛,在不在班有沒有到勤,有沒有開小差,會一些查核跟管理一打就知道是不是空號了,你現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3872.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3885.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
連馬祖是空號已經證實了這是你們資訊你不要跟我講說你們已經換了換了你這個網頁沒換不是一樣是 了解然後其他單位的是不是空號不曉得啊我們下去全面檢討這是24小時的救命專線 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3887.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3890.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
會發生一些不幸的事件,我們都希望不會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3905.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3921.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
不管是官士兵發生不幸事件不管找得出原因有的真的找不出原因都是家庭跟國家的損失每一個家人看到自己孩子面對這樣的事情可以接受的很難拿 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3922.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3944.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以但我不是說全部一定是部隊的錯因為他原因太多元了所以我現在要請教包含部長那個局長你也聽一下我看一下近一個月國軍下一個國軍發生輕生事件這是這一個月有七位嘛你們有沒有統計過去一年就好了我們部隊裡面發生這樣的不幸事件大概有幾件 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3945.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3968.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我跟委員報告每年都有統計數量我們也不好在這邊這樣講所以最近這一點這樣的事情的確很遺憾但我剛好在記者當中我也表達也跟委員做報告任何事情這種發生以後他當事人家庭跟部隊都是一個很大的遺憾請我列這個更按我尊重你們的調查因為有的家屬不願意人家再提起 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3969.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3997.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
有的原因每個人有個人原因營內營外發生狀態也不一樣一個一個個案我們可以私下去關心那基於體恤家屬也好或者有些調查過程甚至於仿效作用我不會在那邊談這個我現在是問我建議部裡面幾件事情第一個過去一年或兩年這類不幸事件營內外共幾件第二個事前有真後有真狀的有幾件佔比多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3998.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4016.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
沒有爭後的有幾件比例多少第三個事後查得出原因的有幾件比例多少查不出因素的有幾件比例有多少那這查得出因素的主要因素前三名是什麼我為什麼要這樣一條一條列 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4017.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4032.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我們在管理上永遠都會有漏洞這個其實是心腹安全網絡這些在部隊裡面的弟兄姊妹是用生命找出這些漏洞我們應該把這個洞想要補起來怎麼補起來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4035.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4064.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
比方說我們這個網絡如果有太高的比例事前無法掌握增厚那是不是我們的心服體系因為按照你看我們下一個表我們按照現在的體系是由地方的銀聯牌班級基層幹部看一下有什麼狀況你們還有一個APP嘛每個禮拜要勾嘛勾自己我有沒有親身的傾向我一勾我就不能放假了我哪會勾啊我一勾馬上被約談了 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4065.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4084.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
你懂我意思嗎我們的班牌幹部本身就是年輕人他也沒有心腹的專業他還要幫你去評估哪個兵哪個官現在有問題然後我們還要自評每個禮拜要勾勾勾勾APP我想要去喝咖啡我一定說我非常有這個傾向就約去喝咖啡了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4085.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4102.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
所以我說這個體系到底是不是一個漏洞該怎麼補強這是一個事情第二個我事情有長過徵兆了結果不幸還發生了那是我們整個輔導體系資源量能不夠你看一下我們的配置從這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4104.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4125.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
為二級單位的編制地區新衛就地區醫院的概念14個然後實際數量到班多少個具有專業證照的人數比例尤其二級心理衛生單位我們現在到班就是實際原額有到的是382個有證照才60個然後下面到班牌已經根本沒有這些證照 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4128.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4143.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我等於是讓班長去肩負我下面的兵欸你們乖一點喔不要給我出問題喔大概平常兵是這樣管而已啦那等到發生不幸了就開始問林兵有沒有聽到什麼所以我今天不是要指責局長或者說部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4145.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4173.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我們都希望不要再發生所以當這些年輕人用生命幫你找到漏洞我們卻不把它改掉的話不把洞補起來的話我們對不起自己我們擔任這個職務嘛我們這些袍澤都是我們的家人啊我們不希望我們的家人遇到困難最無助的時候打電話去吃空耗平常沒有被發現事後找不出原因這不好 這不僅不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4174.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4194.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
可能家人會一輩子不知道為什麼我這個孩子走了你懂我意思嗎所以部長我剛才列這些因素其實你們裡面管理的專家一定很多去列一下我們現有的管理機制坦白講心理輔導或精神衛生這個部分我都會建議國防部多尋求外部協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4195.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4223.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
外部的地區醫院專業衛福部由外部來協助有兩個好處第一個他專業第二個我們是整體國家的量能來協助還有一個什麼好處呢我去尋求這個協助的時候有保密原則我部隊不會知道我有這個情形我不會列為下一波太儲的對象這對中高階其實有影響我現在準備要站少將缺了或者我要升上校缺了我會去勾新府讓你輔導我 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4225.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4251.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
問你這個有問題我再勾你把你伸上來那萬一出事怎麼辦會有這個問題可是心理輔導是一個專業也應該接受保密所以部長你是一個做一天事就把事做好的人這個事情當我們證照不足基層能量不足是不是尋求衛福部及其他轄下相關的醫院甚至於學校專業的專家我們的軍事官兵可以去尋求協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4251.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4258.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
費用國防部這邊來開支那邊還可以守著保密原則只要它是自動去的保密我們輔導去當然我們就會知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4260.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4286.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
部長可不可以這樣往這個方向走?是,我跟委員報告,委員長很有道理,我們的確有地方有時候做得不夠周圍的地方但我要說明這三道防線,我沒有推給他們因為第一道防線沒有錯,他是迎聯排級甚至是班長級他經驗各方面是不夠的,但我們並沒有指望他要出面去幫他輔導我們期望他能夠關切,所以我們現在講說,他只要關切他就會發覺問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4287.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4315.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我現在擔心這樣子的查資系統不足因為時間關係齁我最後問兩件事情我帶過去部長那個局長可以先回座第一個坑子口因為涉及機敏我把裡面一些標示我都拿掉坑子口是我們裝甲部隊非常重要的訓場 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4317.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4337.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
甚至於有些項目都只能在這裡來做那坑子口這個營區原來11個工項因為前幾年原物料上漲所以你們有減項繼續讓它發包施作減了4項現在正在進行中的7項那目前這7項進行中根據我們的這個訓場以及陸軍的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4341.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4357.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
大概M1A2的戰車今年底來到明年上去做實戰的操作有一些科目是可以做的沒有錯有些科目是可以做的沒有錯但部長我們希望更好為什麼更好因為有四項你們把它延後規劃是在2027年到2031年才要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4360.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4376.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
而且那個預算還沒劃出來那個大概是7億多的預算把它往後延了到時候如果預算排擠又把它往後延會產生什麼影響呢這四個沒有做的話我們的連帶排攻擊的演練就沒辦法做 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4378.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4401.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我們的所謂的運動涉及聯繫沒辦法做現在是把運動跟聯繫切開來一般民眾可能不了解運動聯繫就是你的行動跟你的涉及我們現在變只能暫時用切開來要一直要到如果真的變得出預算還要到2031年才能夠具備這個能力這影響多大呢M1A2比M60強就強在這兩項還有一些類似的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4406.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4407.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
長遼車運動涉及相關部分7億多按照規劃到2027年才開始執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4417.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4439.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我個人的建議如果要發揮我們年底開始接裝這些M1A2T的話這當時就是放在同一個階段要執行的4個項目7億多現在我不曉得它會到8億還是會更少就這4個項目能不能在今年的預算把它納入我們盡快讓坑子口成為一個完整的可以訓練M1A2裝甲車的這一個讓這個車子發揮到最大的戰力部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4444.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4462.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我跟委員報告,的確我們台南現在欠缺一種戰甲車,一面走一面打,能夠運動跟射擊中的結合,很難。那我今天可以講說把這個預算編列進去以後,我可以要他們快,但我不敢跟委員保證明年我的戰甲車在這邊運動跟射擊同步來,這我們要一點時間來。每慢一年編預算, |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4470.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4498.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這個能力就會往後延當然預算你看全局可能會有排擠可能跟湖口的測試場域會有些聯動關係但我的意思說這幾樣能力你本身是裝甲出身的這幾個沒有遜到的話其實M1A2T車就可惜了所以我真的建請部長去思考這四個項目不要挪到這麼後面是不是可以開始來進行而且你就算編進去發包搞不好還留你越慢它就會拖到然後那個陸軍參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4499.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4510.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
有關我們無人機防禦系統,我上次特別提出你們標案是一項一項測試那是有問題的,你說不會,絕對整合我今天有把你們標單帶來,是分開單項測試這個部分請你督導,我有時間再細問,謝謝你,謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4528.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4540.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好,謝謝羅委員我們下一個進行詢問的委員是羅美玲羅委員謝謝主席,有請邱部長羅委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4554.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4556.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
部長好 部長 呃 誠如剛剛我們國防部在報告裡頭所說的 無論是烏爾戰爭或者是以巴衝突 無人機確實是大大發揮了創新還有不對稱作戰的這個效益 所以目前呢 全球呢 都加緊這個腳步要來部署無人機在軍隊當中的這個配置 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4576.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4603.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那當然也包含了臺灣那我們在這個烏俄戰爭當中可以發現說價值幾百塊美金或幾千美金小小的無人機摧毀類似這個可能幾百萬美金或幾千萬美金的一些高價值的目標我們還常看到說小小的無人機然後呢摧毀大型的像坦克車之類的所以變成是說確實我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4606.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4633.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
在這兩場戰爭當中看到的這以小博大不對稱戰爭的這個效益那對於這個無人機我剛剛也看到我們報告裡面有提到就是說我國是採中科院像偽製、國內商購或是跟國外軍購等等那甚至我們自己國內跟國科會我們也有做一些研發那在這個無人機的這個發展的這個進程當中我們可以發現說全球美國可能是最先進的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4634.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4636.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
像我有看到之前像美軍他已經是有正在研發這個有人戰機呢跟無人戰機進行這個戰術的這個搭配比如說他們可以這個研發的這個無人戰機可以協助像這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4650.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4651.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
國防部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4672.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4672.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4689.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4708.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
但這些都因為一個借鏡給我們設定一個目標而且我們目前也朝這方面做譬如說我們也期望不管是無人機的研發也好能夠加快腳步變成一個徵打一體但有些科技方面的問題我們除了一方面做我們自己以外另外汲取其他國家的德意來加在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4709.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4728.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
但這個長期的規劃,我們現在的因應的方法,除了以現有的無人機來做,不管是偵測也好,或者預警也好,一步一步來做,將來想要有能力的話,希望能夠爭打一體的,能夠在我們手上掌握,對我們戰力是絕對有幫助的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4729.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4745.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
所以我們現在無人機的發展其實還是在初階的這個階段也不能講初階就有些是已經到了某種地步有的但在戰略型的有很多還在努力當中因為我剛有看到說就是說我們其實也有分了很多的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4746.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4753.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
因為依照那個不同的這個作戰的任務啊行程其實我們自己本身也有分一些層級嘛連戰層級戰術層級等等既然我們都已經有有細分當然在研發方面可能也要分這個這個層級那目前就相該部長所講的我們無人機的發展可能還是在偵測當中那剛剛我所提的這個美國他們已經在 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4769.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4770.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這個是必然要的,而且剛剛委員講的,我們現在目前有一些東西有點成果了 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4784.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4809.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
但我們不能夠在這個地方對大家做個表述但高委員所講的因為有目標所以我們要怎麼樣達到這個目標這工作持續不斷的而且利用各種方法所以自我研發以外透過廠商透過現有的現品怎麼樣加速一點在裡面不管是所需要的料件以後可以增加它的能量這我們都在做各位國會做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4810.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4832.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
國防部長提到研發,我們其實有投入了7億多位由中科院研製這個摩羯戰術型的進程無人機可是在今年1月份的時候,我們在台東地區指揮部在一個操演當中,就是重要目標防護反滲透、反突擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4832.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4834.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
國防部的回答是因為操場、現場、微雨、水氣、浸透 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4857.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4857.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4887.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4912.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們這次已經投入7億,到時我們是不是要,我印象當中是50套100架,對不對?不會是都是這種品質吧?請問部長首跟委員報告,這個詳情請我們中科院本身來做說明,但我基本上我們絕對不推脫,不會講以這個作為理由,好不好?我們中科院他很清楚當時的狀況,簡單報告因為這個回答其實會讓人家覺得說,這個品質真的有問題耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4915.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4944.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
報告委員 我很簡單的回答因為戰術無人機我們要求就是4K的畫質800萬畫素它比Full HD的1080還要更精確那為什麼有這個現象呢因為當時這個影像傳到導控台導控台離記者席很遠所以由攝影機來做翻拍翻拍因為當時的霧氣是翻拍的結果而不是本身攝影傳出的結果它本身的要求是4K800萬畫素的高畫質是沒有問題的 是翻拍的問題造成的影像不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4944.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4951.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這是翻拍的關係造成的,其實它本身是沒有這個問題,意思是這樣嗎?可是為什麼當初國防部給人家的回答是因為下雨啊、微雨啊、水氣浸透、浸頭,是因為國防部這邊的回答不夠專業嗎?不了解嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4961.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4978.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
入軍是使用單位這一點我向委員報告當天的現場的說明官他的確是如委員所提示的這個來說明但那是不精確的事實上他說法是錯誤的這個這樣子的話其實會造成很大的誤會我會認為說這一批50套100架的無人機是有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4985.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5006.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我們這50套100架無人機中科院從111年的9月交軍之後我們在各項的演習和實際測試我可以說它的傳輸效果在目前沒有出現這樣的狀況那天純屬一個翻拍它的一個我們後面也做了檢討這樣子的類型而後不會再讓它發生向委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5008.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5023.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以說以後再回答媒體這個部分的話可能要非常非常的謹慎當我們看到這個回答的話真的是非常的搖頭第一點我們懷疑品質第二點當然就是說國防部這種回答是不是真的是不夠專業當初看到這個報導的時候是這樣子所以這個部分以後如果類似OK現在我們當然我也趁這個機會讓各位來做這個解釋現在我們看到的這個畫面媒體所提供出來的畫面 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5036.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5040.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
其實是翻拍的畫面,並不是實際上他所呈現的這個畫面嘛,影像傳輸的畫面嘛,當初你們就應該要講清楚啊,可是我們當初看到這個回答的時候,真的覺得太離譜了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5051.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5073.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
好那再來的話就是說有關於這個剛剛有提到這個非操守的這個培訓那當然我也有看到就是說現在呢我們要培訓國軍無人機師資的這個總能是規劃在4月起是委託民間公司來培訓這個操作手那我想請問我想請問部長那像這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5078.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5086.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
因為我們現在也要培養一些種子教官嘛對不對那再來的話就是說我們EUE已經要恢復一年今年已經恢復一年了那未來的這個訓練的課程軍訓的課程裡面會不會納入這個非操守的這個訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5094.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5113.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
例如說初級的這個課程會不會納入必要的課程當中,請問部長會納入看他分發到哪個單位,如果單位是做這種訓練的,他分進去的,他一定要接受這個訓練而且我們要分發他到那邊之前,一定有個要點,就是說他也在這一方面具有專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5114.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5137.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
他必須要有專業先決條件因為當初我們的義務役變成一年的規劃也就是說他基本上都在這個所備部隊裡面但有些他有意願啊但因為他要到哪個組戰兵力或到其他單位的話專業是能夠符合能夠符合相近的經過短暫訓練以後就可以從事任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5138.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5138.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
國防部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5157.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5157.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5187.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5187.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
謝謝委員：謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5211.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5218.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好,謝謝龍美玲委員,各位請回。接下來進行詢答的委員是徐小新委員。謝謝主席,我想請這個邱部長。來,部長請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5243.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5267.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
徐委員好部長好我想先請問您幾個時事問題就是對岸4月的時候要主辦西太平洋的海軍論壇據目前的了解大概美國澳洲等30國左右的海軍高層會參加有日媒指出這次的論壇它有一個主題是關於預防無人機海上飛行時碰撞意外的架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5268.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5286.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
中共也定定海上相遇相關的使用情況,還有無人機系統議題研究工作組。現在兩岸劍拔弩張,大家就很關心說,在海上相遇的無人機碰撞意外部分,我們有沒有類似的機制,什麼時候定定? |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5287.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5315.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我跟委員報告防止意外事件發生防止擦槍走火就是我們一直在努力的對方有沒有努力我不能幫他答覆但是因為要做這努力所以空中的海上的或者面對面的怎麼樣來防制就一定納入我們平常研究跟訓練的範疇所以我們平常有研究跟訓練的範疇那我們未來會去訂定比較明確的指引或是有成立工作小組這樣子的一個心態嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5316.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5342.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我們是因為基本上我們在防而且防的方法最簡單講我們在一個界定在界限以內我們做我們的訓練那不會講說我們主動來發起這個災難走火這個問題大家他要做了以後那我們平常的應對是那個無人機部分部長我們是在談的是無人機部分就是說我們今天如果在海上有無人機相撞的時候我們的明確的指引是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5343.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5344.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我們說這個方法有沒有定定一個原則或準則目前? |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5361.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5361.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
無人機運用的現況及發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5383.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5406.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我們到時候當這些國家區域國家都遵守了這個訂定的機制之後我們自然就會加入這樣所以目前還沒有但未來會考慮訂定嗎是這個意思那另外就是媒體有報導呢我們在潛艦的戰隊未來可能會升格成艦隊也傳出說在蘇澳左營會規劃雙母港請問一下事情的這個情況那是否為真那進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5407.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5436.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我跟委員報告目前沒有講說一定要成立實體艦隊或艦隊另外也不界定在哪個地方要設立什麼母港這個港那個港我們只要講說有這個裝備一定要考量它將來不管維保或者存放位置這都併入考量的沒有設定沒有一定要那在那個蘇澳跟左營規劃雙母港這個部分呢我們一樣嘛就各個港如果可能的我們都有大陸嘛我不能講在排除哪一個要哪一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5437.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5440.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我只記得你不要緊張我想我們有緊張啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5455.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5474.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我覺得您應該要緊張一下因為我們今天關心的是有沒有涉及到我們在憲兵211營當天的陳述的不實的問題那我先問您您在哪一個時間點才知道事情的全貌的 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5474.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5490.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我坦白講因為後來外面一直他本身裡面又有傳言講可能有誤所以我就開始追憲兵不用在裡面講有傳言我當天質詢的時候就跟您說了我們先看一下當天我的說法好不好我們當天的詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5491.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5507.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我必須很嚴肅的說在委員會裡面所有的答詢我們都希望你們是可以先了解狀況才做發言因為包含這麼多的媒體朋友全國的國人都在看那訊息出去之後那到底是否為事實那當然我們的軍人也在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5508.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5532.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那時候的情況是這樣﹖3月7號的立法院的公報﹖我問了這個211營士兵牌班扶勤的問題﹖戰哨的問題﹖這個參謀長就說﹖報告確實有負責軍械業務﹖那幾天部隊有在打靶﹖我們去看過當事人近三個月的勤務派遣部分﹖他有符合國軍的警衛教範﹖一天最多三班哨 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5533.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5560.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那我進一步問這個所謂一天三班哨的部分那是站幾個小時、歇幾個小時所以我就問說那這幾個月來都是站二歇六嗎那參謀長回答說是的我們看了他三個月以來的勤務狀況我當即就回復說那這樣非常有趣喔因為我跟你們要的報表就這張這是一個平均的數字喔都非常的漂亮沒有問題可是實際上我們去問了很多的憲兵同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5561.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5585.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那他們都說其實沒有像這麼好的就確實人力也可能不足勤務也比較操勞所以這個初勤統計表跟實際面臨到軍人的情況我當即就說我覺得還需要去做調查那請問一下為什麼會在打巡的過程當中提到了是戰二邪六而且是確認過他三個月的勤務狀況但後續的時候呢發現幾件事情第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5589.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5605.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這個由媒體取得所謂古南生前的哨表如果他們報導有不對等一下你們可以做更正喔就談到說不只是沒有戰二卸六甚至是有戰二卸二的狀況再加上他的附加哨一天是六班哨其中四次是戰二卸一 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5607.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5621.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那再加上除了他以外還有很多的包含2月27號衛信二兵五班少陳信宇下士連六班歇二然後3月5號歇兩四班少3月15號歇四那也接獲了多名的211的這個憲兵指說 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5624.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5644.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
有兩份的哨表一份是應付督導的一份是真實戰哨情況我想多給你們一點時間可不可以把過程說明的清楚完整今天講完是這樣出去不希望又有其他的版本或是我們其他的國軍弟兄反映說我們在立法院陳述的是不實的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5645.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5674.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
可以啊,我在這樣好不好,我的原則上我們已經跟憲民都做交代,我也特別強調我們家人員該要做一個查處的,但不想把責任推給他,我的原頭為什麼要當初你這樣排,但你給我回報的是例外的答案,這是一個方法不好,所以我們全面檢討,那是因為後面檢討不管人員替換也好,代理也好,我也跟他們強調一點,不要再有節外生殖後遺症的出來, |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5675.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5680.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
他現在細部的工作我都請參謀長能不能跟委員做簡單一個說明來做一下說明好不好給你們一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5682.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5711.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
是 委員好 我是憲兵創工長首先感謝委員對這個事件的一個指導那先跟委員報告 因為當時在提供資料的時候那確實因為我們沒有審慎跟仔細的去了解整個一個衛哨那個全班的實況那造成在資料的提供上跟訊息的提供上那跟實況有些落差那在此先跟委員表達歉意那經過我們最近的全班檢視該營的所有的勤務人力的調配跟休假的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5712.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5737.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那確實有發生有同仁佔兩歇兩跟佔兩歇四的一個狀況發生那目前我們也按照主觀參謀跟事觀三個軸線來深刻來檢討疏責人員的相關應該要的救責的責任那在後續的部分我們區分兩個部分第一個部分我們針對衛少全部派遣的部分那我們從上週起我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5739.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5762.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
派遣由憲兵202指揮部副指揮官以上以及我們縣指部副參督察副主任等高階的幹部輪流到2107駐點主要是針對勤務哨表的集合讓他能夠確實在所有的武裝哨都能夠達到佔兩卸六的一個評次那第二個部分就是在人力補充的方面那為了我們去減緩整個勤務的一個繁重跟壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5763.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5787.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我們區分兩個主軸第一個部分就是我們對全憲兵的同仁那至重點在北部第7及憲兵第202指揮部我們去調查有意願到兩腰引擎服務的同仁那目前我們有意願的具有26個那我們也分別在陸陸續續的在輔導跟訓練那可以立即來提供提升他現有的一個能力從67.8到72.2那後續我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5791.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5813.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
會逐月逐次在四五六月三個月份那我們除了持續的去宣導有意願的人員之外那我們也配合後續的兵員的補充來逐次來補充那逐次補充的主要目的是避免說今年我們不要去大批的補那明年大批的退那又造成情務的一個下去那以上是我的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5813.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5835.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
了解喔那這個投訴人講說啊為了要這個戰二泄六喔你們有把在休假的人都叫回來問一下有沒有這件事情這部分我們現在也在調查中那我們整個這個調查的情形都會後續在我們的整個調查報告中那把所有的事情都把它還原什麼時候會有調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5837.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5861.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
幫我們盡速把調查報告來做完成主席我希望可以再給我一分鐘時間因為我讓他們做比較長的回覆部長我最後想要跟您談一下就是說這麼多的國軍弟兄他們這麼的年輕然後來到我們軍中都是希望說他們能夠保家衛國都是對我們國家希望有貢獻那我們的長官我覺得也應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5862.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5881.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
給予他們同樣的一個好的文化然後呢要讓他們感受到我們軍中的長官是能夠負責任的我最近一直在思考就是說您剛剛談到您只記得我跟你質詢的時候叫你不要緊張可是我覺得重點在於這個事件社會都非常的關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5881.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5910.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那後續因為您們的在這裡的錯誤的說法導致於我想了很久或許211的其他憲兵的同仁他可能兩種情況第一種是這個古姓憲兵的同袍他的親友他覺得不對啊他碰到的情況根本不是你們所說的這樣所以他第一種情況他希望討公道希望真相大白這個部分只有透過完整的調查報告的公開才能讓大家理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5911.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5937.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
第二是警訊就是2110其他站的人他們有站2歇2的情況而且我看了一下還不少他們可能看到這整個答詢他們覺得為什麼你們說都是站2歇6可是我們平常時的生活不是這樣為什麼部長為什麼參謀長你們要這樣講我們很辛苦我們很累你們都沒有看到你們都沒有感受到所以他們才請把事情提供給記者媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5938.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5957.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
反而因為當天的這樣子的一個答詢變成一個反作用力讓全國人民都覺得對於國軍高層是有一點不信任的所以這兩個部分我覺得都很重要對於逝去的人要還他公道要給他真相對於現在還在的人要給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5959.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5980.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我們要在勤務上面有足夠的和平部長能不能夠承諾有什麼樣的一個改善方式給大家一個清楚的承諾好不好?國防委員我也請稍微給我一點時間我一直很關切我一直很感激並沒有什麼抗拒的這種用意我跟同仁講的我們只照顧官兵這不是一個什麼任務啊就我們應該要做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5983.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6006.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
照顧官兵兩個第一個他權益我們不要讓他受損第二個他身心不要給他受傷他權益受損就包含他如果要申訴的話你這個申訴管道不能夠堵他不能夠不處理因為這跟水管一樣你不能堵也要讓他通所以目前這一方面可能做有點落差造成他誤會但我要跟大家說明講說我們絕對不會去不知道這個人講話把這個問題遮蓋掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6009.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6016.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
第一,我們在有什麼問題出來了以後,我們有全面檢討的。所以檢討的方向一定是,第一,依法來辦理。第二,我們一直從內部開始檢討,沒有講推脫愛,他個人的問題,沒有愛。內部我們管理問題,工作壓力會不會太大,或者我們管教方面有什麼問題,還有例外也附帶的。他的感情,他債務,他家庭,他跟外界交友狀況,這一步一步來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6035.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6043.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
所以有時候跟委員會一講以後一個基本的一個查到我們了解這我們都理解啦後續是不是我們對因為時間的關係好不好那最後我還是要跟主席報告因為我們回到剛剛那一張就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6052.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6077.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
就是我們的公報就是我還是要強調在我們委員會裡面的答詢你們應該要先了解事情全貌之後再回來回答如果不清楚的話就回答不清楚要再回去回答而不是提供一個錯誤的資訊好嗎謝謝徐小新委員部長各位請回謝謝好我們接下來進行詢答的委員是林楚瑩委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6086.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6092.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
謝謝主席,主席有請邱部長。好,部長請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6098.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6115.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
委員好部長好有關於我們今天所排定的無人機的部分我想首先要詢問的就是因為在國安相關法規之下我們現在所有的軍事的部分其實重要的基礎建設我們都希望能夠去除紅色供應鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6117.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6144.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
不過當然無人機更是如此因為它都是遠端遙控的部分那麼在我們無人機現在採購的過程當中又或者是說我們所有這個軍用的商規無人機那麼目前在採購的部分在驗收的部分我們如何確保真正的是去除紅色供應鏈因為它也許是在這個過程當中就像之前我們看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6145.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6146.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
好,跟委員前面報告,為了要防止這個問題發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6169.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6178.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我們現在從採購的邊阻開始,所以以往採購人員單一的,我採購人員對他的採購的對象,我現在要求你採購的話,這是個組織的問題,不能夠犯的錯,能不能打個來檢查,我有這個問題,所以我們人員擴大邊阻了以後,會造成一個現象, |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6193.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6208.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
一邊主要經過他經過他經過他都要經過檢驗很麻煩遮蔽以前會發生這種問題的原因就因為邊組可能沒有注意到或者會變異形式就他用他直接的方法造成問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6209.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6229.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
但我們現在國防部用採購方法,用這個編組了以後,我們來盡量把這個問題給排除掉。所以最近有一些發生問題,不管錄製的或什麼,是我們自己檢查的時候發覺的。但我覺得不因此而推脫,想說哎呀,我們好像這個管道還是很有用,我們要持續努力。 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6230.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6242.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
好部長我想問的就是在這樣的採購的關鍵當中如何來區分是關鍵的技術那絕對是要去除紅色供應鏈但如果說不是關鍵技術比如像馬達您認為是關鍵技術嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6244.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6265.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
馬達我覺得也蠻關鍵的馬達雖然各國都有但是呢他專用的馬達可能不一樣所以本期要強調的是在您剛剛所講的不論是擴大編組又或者是專業人才或是專業資訊的取得上面希望能夠更加的謹慎因為我們在報導所說的在同一間廠商在去年9月的時候就是說半年內會開發出取代中國製的供應鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6269.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6277.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那麼像現在剛好是半年喔,若就您所知或者是其他的長官可以協助回覆的,那麼現在目前在這個部分我們已經獲得了足以取代中國供應鏈的這樣的實力了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6286.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6315.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
委員好我是國防採購室主任有關於剛剛委員所問的就是紅色供應鏈不管是紅色供應鏈或者說我們這個產品的這個採購膠裝我們是全面禁止這個錄製品百分之百禁止錄製品不只是說一個馬達或者說我們把限制說哪些是錄製品可以哪些是錄製品不可以我們是全面禁止那有關於剛剛驗收的部分我這邊再補充跟委員報告其實我們在整個驗收的過程我們在整個防治 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6316.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6346.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
錄製 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6347.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6368.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
謝謝接下來要詢問部長的是有關於今天在報告特別提到從俄烏戰爭之後其實了解到無人機的戰隊非常的重要那麼在未來的訓練的部分只稍微短短的幾行寫了成立所謂的無人機訓練中心那麼這樣的一個無人機訓練中心是依現有的國軍的人力來做編組 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6369.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6397.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
還是說接下來我們會擴充成為一個真正的無人機戰隊那這個方向到底是怎麼樣因為我們知道其實無人機如果就今天的報告會發現它有非常不同的作用、功用包括有兼真的但是也有近距離的那麼如何把這個戰隊把它這個無人機的訓練中心如何來運作那麼在配置上面又是一個什麼樣的配置 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6398.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6416.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我跟委員報告,我們這個專班的一個行程,這個人員是很重要的。但人員的來源,人才來源,不是光只有現有的。剛剛委員講這個無人機操控,它的條件要具備什麼?曾經對飛行方面要有經驗的話,條件更好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6416.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6439.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以我們有很多從軍中退的年齡大一點的人但他如果操控無人機的話他沒有受到這個年齡的限制你講他這個服務的年齡可以大一點所以我們從多元管道有些年輕人在這方面本來就很有興趣而且也很專業的我把這些人招來了以後那成立這個班隊啊我講是效果是更好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6440.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6465.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以這個無人機的訓練中心在這個班對他當中他現在會變成是一個獨立出來的一個無人機的戰隊嗎編隊嗎他算獨立但他的任務是為國軍的但人員的來源可能就其他管道各方都有所以言下之意他是一個訓練中心他只是作為其他軍種所需要的一個訓練的 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6467.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6476.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
教育訓練的單位還是說這樣的一個無人機訓練中心之後出來他會成為一個無人機的新的戰隊編隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6480.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6498.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
委員好我是陸軍事務部常務長我就您剛剛的提詢簡要的報告其實在三軍的無人機運用它各有不同就如今這個專報裡面有戰術型的還有我們基層部隊兼徵型的使用一二類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6499.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6529.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那這個無人機中心實際上在現行在各軍種裡面他的教育班隊裡面都有依據他軍種的建案來開設相關的班隊那委員所提的一個戰隊這個概念我大概用我們軍事上來跟委員報告我們任何一個國軍單位的成立都有平時任務跟暫時任務那平時任務當然就是以訓練為主那暫時這些專業的人力他會去擴充到部隊在這方面的實戰上的需求以上的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6529.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6550.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
好謝謝您的回覆我會這樣子問是因為目前我們軍用商規的無人機大概有3000多台那麼到底有沒有人能夠操作就是為什麼我在關心這個無人機的訓練中心以下這個需求呢我就不多念了我只想要詢問的是那麼像除了陸用的針氈型外其他的都會在年底前會取得嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6552.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6567.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那麼那有多少國軍擁有這些證照可以來做這個訓練能夠搭配的上就是訓練中心跟我們現有的軍方所採購的3000多家的無人機在這兩者之間我們有足夠的人力人員訓練能夠及時的來使用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6570.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6598.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我跟委員報告,這是逐年逐年,三千多架不講,目前有那麼多,這上面有一個計劃期限但我們任何一個計劃在推動上,它不光是這個器械的問題,連同人員怎麼培訓,都是搭配的所以我們知道空軍飛行員跟飛機架次有關,它有個座艙比我想我們無人機也可以朝這一方面來做一個思考,這樣的話有個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6599.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6609.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
將來譬如說有兩架無人機可能要三個人來做一個操控一個備變朝這一方面去努力的話我想按照期程可以達到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6610.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6636.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
好,言下之意就是我們現在的無人機的訓練中心他在規劃當中在啟用當中一年打算訓練多少的所謂無人機的操作手那麼在這樣的計劃當中是不是能夠因應得上現在對於無人機的各種的需求不論是監偵或者是防禦甚至於攻擊型的他其實就像部長所說的他所需要的技術能量其實是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6637.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6639.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
國軍現在有可以操作的操作手有多少人? |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6660.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6683.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那麼跟我們現有的這些無人機的搭配的比例是多少?比如就像您剛講的可能一台無人機是兩到三位那麼現在到底是比例上面擁有證照真的可以來做操作手能夠真的發生戰事或是現在我們就要上線使用的時候他能夠真的上線能夠使用操作無人機的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6684.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6684.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我請蓮藥市長跟您做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6714.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6726.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
好那最後一個答案那就是所以我們的這個有關於操作的訓練中心接下來那麼有沒有什麼樣的一個目標就是在人員訓練的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6727.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6747.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我剛剛有跟委員蓋報告,我們這無人機獲得多少,人員進口要迅速多少,這是我最基本的目標。而且進一步的話,就是會搭配我們所交貨的到部隊上面的這些無人機,就是我們來做搭配。而且操作手會多於無人機。對,沒有錯。 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6748.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6749.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
有關軍品的採購,我們在2022年5月21日 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6774.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6798.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我們當時本席提案也修正國安法修正如果提供中國製的軍品的話以往都是用採購法只有用101條款撤銷他的資格從那個三讀通過之後如果交付中國相關的零組件的時候是一年以上到三年以下有期徒刑計劃到外面去做的時候把我們的技術拿到 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6798.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6816.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
港澳中國去做的時候是7年以上10年以下還要並可罰金5000萬所以以往沒有刑法現在有刑法那謝謝楚雲委員在提這個我也要提醒國防部對於一些新進特別商規軍用他可能不懂他以為反正我就違規了被你罰錢取消資格而已會關喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6817.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6831.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
現在是要抓去關的透過告知避免這個情形一些舊的我們的供應鏈常常可能已經知道新的可能不曉得所以這部分本席在那邊做提醒好接下來進行巡查委員沈伯陽委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6841.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6842.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
有請部長、中科院院長及國土辦主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6861.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6879.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
副委員好部長好那這個很高興今天有很多委員王委員徐委員都有關心這一個新服務的制度那所以我今天在這邊就是比較專注在還是跟無人機相關那這個現在我在看這個台灣無人機的發展我有看到這一個報告裡面有指出說有接近這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6880.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6880.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
無人機運用及發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6894.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6910.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以很高興可以看到在這個報告裡面可以看到就是說有接近這一個烏鴉戰爭的發展那現在我看到的幾個比較困境的地方是中科院的一個角色第一個就是這一次在報告裡面有提到說我們這個無人機有這個所謂各式各樣不同的層級都在報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6912.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6935.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我想問的這個最主要是右邊的第二個問題就是說現在中科院委制的這個戰術戰術進程無人飛行的載具他的這個適用的情境當時他預想的狀況為何那在報告裡面有提到有可能是為了要這個針對這個海上的目標或者為了要蒐集這個情報是不是可以把這個需求是不是可以先說明一下在中科院來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6937.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6954.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
委員好我是總統院院長當初這個近程戰術無人飛行載具這是陸軍的需求我們主要是適用於在城鎮跟濱海作戰它的距離大概是30公里這個一個小時大概以這個城鎮來為戰術層級的武器大概是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6960.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6974.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
好 謝謝那因為我現在看到整個這個狀況就是說看到譬如說陸軍因為現在各軍都有提出這個需求嘛我看無人機現在要求的這個可能有五六種那提出了需求之後呢中科院可能就會委制然後可能就會有民間廠商那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6974.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6993.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
在前陣子這個監察院有講到這個中科院偽製無人機採購案不公的一個狀況我沒有想要去講這個裡面的內容因為這個你們應該都已經知道了所以這個不是很重要我現在比較覺得有趣的一個地方就在於說他裡面有提到這些評選的委員嘛那委員裡面有六位是中科院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6993.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7016.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那三位是陸軍的士官,一位是外聘的學者專家但是因為提出需求的,譬如說他提出需求的是陸軍那今天提出需求的單位他有沒有在這一個評選委員裡面比如說他們今天需求的人他知不知道今天廠商所交出來的這個給中科院的這一個無人機載具他到底有沒有符合陸軍想要得到的需求這件事情是要怎麼去確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7017.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7035.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我跟委員報告,當初就是金二院也是針對這個人員,評選人員的一個界定提出意見來,我們也改了,譬如說這個一定為什麼陸軍或哪一個士官,這個我們也馬上拿掉,一定是跟這個專業有關,但外聘人員來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7036.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7041.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
經過委員會、國科、公共委員會的專業人員,我們從裡面來抓取,裡面條件要很清楚,我們給他做說明,做一個評審 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7053.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7077.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這樣的話我們不會變成通通的軍方的人在裡面掌握,我們這也就要避免掉了。好,謝謝。那現在呢,如果說我們今天在評選的這個過程當中能夠讓需求方能夠更能夠知道說今天提出來的無人機載具能不能符合需求當然是好事。但因為我們現在看到的狀況有一點,我個人認為有點跌窗架屋,就是第一個我們的各軍種可能提出了需求,然後提出了需求之後呢,中科院會開規格。 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7079.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7099.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
中科院開了規格之後呢這些廠商就是根據這些規格去製造這些載具但問題是在於說那為什麼今天軍總不直接對到廠商因為我是覺得中科院這樣反而因為像今天廠院這個報告裡面我就覺得中科院很公清便士主因為中科院他今天理解的並不是需求方他理解的是規格他把規格開得很好然後去 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7099.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7100.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7121.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7141.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
比如說今天這個作戰需求是要針對海上目標今天這個需求像剛有提到的可能是在城鎮裡面要做使用那把需求提出來之後呢廠商就開始不斷的去提出他們的解決方案然後中間呢就會有各式各樣的測試那我看到他們的測試呢其實他們的評估人員就直接是戰鬥人員也不是武器的這個評估的幕僚 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7141.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7167.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那這個戰鬥人員去做測試的時候他可能就會發現說這邊哪裡完全不符合我們的需求是不是請廠商可以再多做一點那我現在發現我國的一個採購狀況有時候會變成說廠商是要先去符合規格但廠商有可能會發現這個規格到底有沒有符合當時陸軍或海軍提出來的那個想定提出來的那一個需求但他又不敢僭越因為中科院其實已經把規格訂好給他了那對他們來講他們就是把規格做好就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7175.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7183.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
中科院必須要做在那一個位置那中科院也必須要把規格開好那像這種直接把需求提出來讓廠商參加這樣的可能性有沒有呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7184.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7202.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我跟委員不好,我們不管採購也好,或者建案也好,它一定有個程序的。因為一開頭不講規格,它到某個地步、某個程序,它就要講規格。所以我們的建案它有三個程序。第一個,我一定要什麼任務,我要做什麼案。提出任務要求的人,他也不知道規格。 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7203.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7229.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
但到了頭高的階段：他就要把規格講出來：甚至一到總公案理變品項要更清楚：這一步一步來的：所以美國接近美國第一線的院：他不管你完成以後：測試是一定要嚴格測試的：所以我們國家不管是經過中科院來統一：來掌握或各軍所來建案：這個最後用的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7230.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7235.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
美國的確很好,事實上他在某個層級裡面可能你沒有看到他前面依據任務他的需求,或者最後他怎麼樣來驗收,這跟我們最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7251.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7268.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
都會符合在一道的我們也是因為有層級不同所以早晚一定要經過這個步驟才能夠符合我們建案跟我們獲得軍品或也好任何武器裝備能夠運用到部隊裡它用的單位可以滿足它的 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7268.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7293.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我提出這一個其實蠻大的一個原因是因為我們看到我們的中科院其實在量能上壓力越來越大就因為中科院他要負責做很多的研發工作然後他又要接很多的案子所以變成說今天在無人機的這一個狀況呢他有時候他在中間那他必須要去他第一個他要去跟像我們在這個報告裡面有提到他可能要去跟經濟部啊什麼等等去跟國發會來做合作因為我們有很多的廠商在裡面嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7293.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7309.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
他一方面也要再跟國防部一起來做比較新型的一些研發所以在量能上面我們就一直覺得說是不是可以解放中科院的量能然後也不會造成說像之前這個監察院報告提到的他只要一格過一格這邊不符合就說這個會不會是一個採購的弊案啊什麼等等之類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7311.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7332.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我跟委員簡單做個說明每個層級都有工作不同段像剛才講的中科院又要建案又要跟其他部份協調沒有這樣子該要跟其他部份協調該國防部出面一定要出面的都我們一系列每個層級不一樣各做各的分工不同至於軍種的建案如果可以在中科院那裡納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7333.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7349.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
本來我們也在做了一半以前的話搭配在裡面很自然就為了讓裝備各方面能夠達到一致性不要分門別類各搞各的反而變成一個問題只要在工作運作當中發掘的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7351.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7352.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
因為假設今天中科院有時候在中間的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7373.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7394.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
他必須因為他必須要去了解今天實際的作戰需求然後他又要去往下理解規格那像我們今天像之前剛剛前面有提到那一個陸軍的那個水器啊什麼等等之類的像今天廠商他如果說今天這個無人機他要怎麼做保養又或者說他今天要怎麼做維護這個東西呢他其實照理說他也不用再去給中科院然後再去給軍種嘛其實廠商直接對 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7395.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7396.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7418.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7445.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
這個目前來講不是說我們用無人機然後我們在這個CI裡面會使用這一個干擾牆來反制這個無人機那我只會很簡單的兩個問題第一個就是因為像這樣的一個干擾牆它必須還是要對準嘛對不對還是要瞄準那第一個就是偵測方面現在的進度如何這第一個第二個就是因為會有單位會問說那他們的法院也就是說呢因為畢竟這個現在干擾牆要放在他們那一邊嘛那有沒有一個事切的法院可以讓他們知道一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7446.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7464.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
是,謝謝委員,國土辦回應有關於偵測系統的部分目前大概是用區域聯防的方式無人機起飛或遙控都有相關的射頻訊號是可以偵知的所以每個CEI會依照它的特性、它的範圍去建置它相對應的偵測系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7466.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7493.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
如果它本身的量體比較小當然就透過區域聯防那另外在這個法院的部分在民用航空法裡面本來就有這個設施單位者去驅離這個非法的無人機進來紅區的這樣的一個法院所以是他們是可以操作的那另外我們講的干擾有些時候我們應該是用干擾器比較適當因為它其實是一個射屏元件並不是一個干擾槍這就不跟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7494.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7507.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
警方或軍方使用槍這是不完全是不同的東西啦齁所以是一個干擾器所以在法院上面也都沒有問題那我們會跟各個部會做一個相關的說明感謝齁那就再跟這個各個CI齁跟他們講一下法院的一個部分齁謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7511.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7534.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我們在進行下一個詢答之前我先宣告本期宣告目前有收到臨時提案一案那因為時間現在是10點36分我們就不再收案待會在本會委員陳冠廷委員詢答結束後我們會進行處理這一個臨時提案處理完畢之後休息5分鐘那現在進行詢答委員是洪森漢委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7548.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7548.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
請部長部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7561.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7586.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
部長這個我們其實在國防部推動很多政策的時候我們其實應該也都會去做一些有效性的評估我們任何政策都確認它有沒有能夠達到我們的政策的目的任何管理的政策有沒有達到管理的目的所以部長同意說我們在軍隊管理裡面應該也要進行這些有效性的評估嗎部長同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7587.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7588.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
國防外交委員會已經談過幾次 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7609.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7633.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這個國軍人員出國的業務規定裏面這個我們其實裏面一直有明定這個申請出國觀光的人員應該要自行選定經交通部觀光局立案合格且信譽良好的旅行社那出國人應全程隨團活動不得擅自拖隊部長這事情是我們現在這個國防部規定沒有錯對不對對好再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7634.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7634.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
規範與管理目的? |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7641.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7669.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我跟委員報告這管理的目的我現在問他出國的目的我們通常軍方人員出國不要公務因為他參加旅遊他去排解心情或跟家庭這都是可以的他如果目的是這樣的話那跟團是我們的要求為了要人員管控加上他有個人因素對不對因為一定要親自去處理那就他不用跟團什麼我們也會同樣讓他說前面一張對不起在前面一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7670.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7693.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
因為我們這邊是寫說 申請出國觀光的人員所以我現在當然討論的是 出國觀光嘛就他有觀光需求的 我現在指的是這個嘛我們是在出國觀光項目上面 要求隨團活動嘛當然個人 他假設他有什麼什麼 他要去就醫等等 那是另外一回事我們這邊講是出國觀光嘛 再下一張那我們用隨團 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7695.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7715.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
必須要隨團來管要求他這個出國觀光的人我們的管理的目的是什麼這是一個管理嘛對不對這是我們用規範法規來要求的管理那目的是什麼我還是想跟部長確認一下我們考的一面來講他有什麼問題我們可以了解的去幫他協助他就這就目的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7717.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7738.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
不然我們現在看到下一張現在看起來在2023年11月你們有一份這個記錄裡面是有講到說我們維持現狀就是要隨團管理第一個是防止人員洩密第二個覺得跟團比較安全第三個緊急狀況容易掌握大概這三個目的這是你們寫給我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7740.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7752.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
但我想確認一件事情是說以我們現在管理的方法你說要防止洩密比方說我就很好奇說其實他假設在出國觀光之前我們會跟他的旅行社 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7753.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7757.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
會不會跟旅行社或導遊做這樣的聯繫?不會在出國前我們不會跟他聯繫第二個在出國的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7778.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7798.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
如果這個我們的這個軍人他說今天我很不舒服我要在旅館裡面休息我可能會離團一段時間這個我們其實也沒有什麼方法可以去掌握嘛對不對沒錯他也不用去回報嘛這是在出國的時候那再來事後的時候他需要再回報嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7801.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7824.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
這什麼叫事後回報啊他說我在迪士尼行程的時候我拖隊了8個小時因為我可能種種種原因我在旅館我沒有跟著團體去迪士尼也沒有事後回報嘛對不對那這時候就讓我們覺得好奇了我們現在強制要求人家一定要隨團可是我事前 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7825.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7826.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們這個方法,你最起碼隨團的話,你有任何的遇到困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7845.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7846.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
部長我完全同意應該管 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7871.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7889.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
因為我們真的現在還擔心安全等等等洩密的事情我完全同意這件事情我們現在討論的事情是怎麼樣做能夠有效無效的管理該被調整我們目的 要達到目的的該更有效的達到目的我今天想跟部長討論的是這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7891.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7915.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
確實現在有很多我們的國軍士兵他們要出國包括我剛剛在前面我們大概有18萬18萬人被管制18萬人這些被管制的這些人他要出國的時候他真的有一些我希望能夠跟家我希望家庭旅遊我希望我跟我的女朋友一起出去對不起現在沒有辦法他一定要跟團所以這其實是有些抱怨 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7918.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7944.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這其實是有一些抱怨但我現在怕的是說我們現在又強制要求他跟團所以大家要去符合這個形式上面的要求可是實質上面我們管理的目的防止他洩密或者我說我是擔心他的安全又在跟團這件事情裡面又達不到真正達到這個目的大家就會對於這個管理的手段會有很多存疑會有很多疑問阿你這是不是一個有效的管理去達到你原本的目的部長現在大家的問題是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7945.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7960.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我請人事部,因為他們有作業規定,我請他做簡單做說明委員好,我是人事室次長首先跟委員說明,整個出國這個規定完全基於安全的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7961.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7979.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那委員剛剛有提到說哪一方面的安全說瀉密的安全瀉密的安全還是人身安全瀉密的安全因為每個人在不同職務的歷練多多少少都會碰到跟機密有關的事情我們沒有辦法防範說他到第三地之後會不會轉到其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7980.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7995.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我們敵對的國家去這個我們沒辦法知道所以說自由行它這個是完全有可能做到的那我們跟團至少它不會發生這樣的一個事情但是跟團它也可能脫團啊甚至我們也聽過很多很形式主義的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7996.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8011.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
他看起來表面上是跟團,其實沒跟團啊我現在意思是說我們達成這個目的,剛剛國防部說的目的我同意我們怎麼樣精準的有效達成這個目的而不造成多餘的困擾現在的問題是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8015.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8036.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
現在很多人就有疑問我們這個只是純粹這個純粹形式上要求隨團的形式真的能夠達到你講的這個目的嗎我們事前也沒有跟這個旅行團聯繫也沒跟導遊聯繫這個他出國的時候我們也沒有相對應的管理機制事後也沒有回報機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8039.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8040.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
大家疑問的是這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8060.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8084.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我現在不是說我要幫大家爭取自由行不是這個意思我想爭取的是有效跟精準的管理下面我認為可以參考一些其他單位的做法比方說我們看到中科院基本上他是把人員分不同機密的機密等級 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8085.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8102.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
你是可以出遊行但是不同機密的人員相對程序有不同相對應的處罰中科院是這樣下一張那國安局的狀況是國安局的狀況是說他的護照要由他們的局來做統一的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8104.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8115.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
出國的時候或者是出國回來要收回讓國安局統一的管理一樣他是可以出自由行所以他會跑到其他國家去那護照上面看得出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8117.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8141.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
用護照這個事情的事後檢驗來看你有沒有跑到其他國家去我現在不是說哪一個方法是最好的但看起來別的單位的做法基本上他是分機密分級人員的機密分因為我們現在18萬人人數其實很多是不是所有的人都會接觸到同樣類型的機密都用同樣類型的管理的方法這件事情我認為是有討論的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8144.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8173.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
要不要用機密分級或者是相對應的分層的管理甚至不同國家有不同管理的方式比方說這樣去中國我就認為去中國恐怕我們需要管理的密度管制的密度就要很高我完全同意但不同國家有不同管理的方式而不是現在你大筆一揮現在在那個上面有一個這樣子的規定沒有錯可是大家都形式主義所以你原本政策的目的看起來也不容易精準達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8174.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8199.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
可是又造成了一些人的困擾那這個管理的形式我認為好像是有可以檢討的空間,部長覺得?我跟委員報告,假如要分什麼機密等級或層級來進行他出國的同意或者這個廣度的話,我們國防部現在也是這樣做的他每個層級,什麼中將以上或者少將,他有規定的部長,所以我現在意思就是說,你現在是要求所有的人都一定要隨團嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8202.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8210.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
現在應該來檢討這個管理的方式是不是有效嘛我現在不是說我現在大力爭取所有人都可以自由行不是這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8211.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8240.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
但是至少能夠精準的清楚的達到我們原本管理的目的但不造成多餘的困擾這就是我們實施管理最重要的原則跟概念那今天其他的單位有所謂機密分級或者是分層的管理的方式我自己覺得國防部應該來參考是不是來檢討我們自己相關的規定之前在國防外交委員會裡面我也看過大家有相關的決議要求國防部來檢討這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8240.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8253.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
可是經過了幾年後我目前收到的國防部的回應是我們沒有要檢討我們維持現況維持現況是因為那些目的可是那些目的寫出來又讓大家覺得你的機制真的能夠達成這些目的嗎部長這我知道那就可以研討嘛我並沒有拒絕是一種事情部長可不可以三個月的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8264.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8285.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
有一個檢討相關的這個出國的規定跟管制的方式有沒有調整的空間跟方向我可以接受逐步調整我可以接受可是我覺得以現在要維持現況它的有效性我是質疑的我是質疑的我了解委員也這樣說就方法怎麼定標準大概有效果至少有效你的目的能夠達得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8288.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8315.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我不是說放鬆就最好自由行就最好不是但該讓人家有自由的部分我覺得該讓人家有自由不要造成多餘的不便跟多餘的困擾但你達成目的好不好三個月可不可以提供國防外交委員會一份報告這個部分檢討的報告好不好謝謝我們列為記錄三個月一定繳錢好謝謝謝謝洪森漢委員請國防部三個月內提供書面報告給本委員會請回好接下來進行詢答委員陳永康委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8328.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8352.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
因為我下面質詢的比較偏重在用兵．跟訓練跟限制因素．所以我也有請副總長執行官．連山作記次長．以及通知次長委員好大家好今天這個報告內容裏面．強調了許多惡無戰爭的經驗那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8358.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8379.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
二無戰爭有一部分的經驗今天並沒有包含在內也就是烏克蘭對在黑海跟克里米亞所有俄國軍艦攻擊的都是無人艇並非無人機那麼這個在下次的時候可以把它融入因為現在無人趨勢發展的我們講自主性的包括UAV |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8381.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8381.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
無人機運用的現況及發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8405.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8415.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
所以比方講我們有一架新的戰鬥機我們希望能夠1比2 1比1.8或者1比1.5但是在俄烏戰爭中你所看到的小部隊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8416.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8416.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
今天我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8444.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8471.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
用這個程度來向各位你現在看到的啊就說我們現在五款商規的無人機啊也提到了自然因素那最主要就是商規無人機他所有的通訊他的頻段全部是由NCC來管制的因此國防部要要求NCC提供更寬裕的軍用頻調不然你是不夠用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8472.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8500.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
現在我們講在陳平時期你用商規的你用通信平台的不管你是用中華電信的或用船的我們看到我們這個得標的廠商是跟中華電信簽約那中華電信對於你通信距離的範圍在物體特性裡面就是飛機的高度加上天線的高度再乘上4.12等於你偵測的距離這是一個變數它不是一個常數 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8502.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8521.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
所以你又要傳回即時完整的圖像這圖像又涉及到了解析度問題了這個跟所謂4K啊800萬畫素是另外一回事因為你通訊頻道的傳輸速度跟頻寬比方講你是解析度是10公分 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8522.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8535.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
解析度30公分1公尺完全不同所以這種傳輸速度也不一樣如果我們在驗證的時候都是用單一的飛機來驗證沒有問題如果你同時要用4架5架來驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8537.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8538.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8567.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8591.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
但是這個跳屏跟我們國軍用的Link-16那完全不是相同的比例所以Link-16是不怕干擾的但一般國內無人機的跳屏那個數字很容易被蓋過去就被干擾到了另外還有一個就是在陳平時期因為你本身有GPS的坐標如果你暫時被蓋台你自己的位置就掌握不住了 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8592.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8620.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
你跟你共同圖像的同步比較做不出來再不能結合你的雷達站所以你在海上看到的目標它實際的方位距離跟送回來的影像的位置是有落差的這個部分我們提供建議就是說要強調商規軍用無人機在陳平時期跟作戰時期它的運用限制因素NCC要放寬我的頻道需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8621.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8622.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8651.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8679.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
英國供應商提供收購的終端機是1300個STARLINK但是呢,烏克蘭的軍隊醫院企業所有的通訊用了4萬2000個末端所以他一個月提供800萬美元那今天呢,我們的NCC可能跟英國的OneWeb簽了約但是簽約裡面包含多少個終端跟用戶點,我們不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8680.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8703.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
就算他的錢只是STARLINK的一半你是暗月又是你是機動台定點的台便宜機動台是10倍所以這些東西在使用端大家要先掌握到就是看起來他是消耗型可以減少了國軍人員的耗損我講的是特別是這種近距離的消耗型的 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8703.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8704.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
國防部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8724.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8729.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
國軍需要的頻寬要擴大,要有預量的tolerance,你不能把陳平時期想像的正常變成暫時的有效運用。 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8745.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8770.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
他確實可以減少人員的損失但是在使用成本上載具無人機它的成本不高但是因為你要掛頻道要分享你這個頻寬你要買那麼多的門號這個錢要預印就是說要編列進去那這個就是自動化跟人文啊未來所謂的這個回路設計啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8771.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8778.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那剛才講有提到就是說要把AI導入那這種AI導入通常是在大型 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8780.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8805.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
連戰的無人機上他有決策但是這裡面就產生了一個作戰準則跟這個ROE了就是說哪些東西是指揮官授權哪些東西要回饋要變更目標要人我們講man in the loop on the loop小型無人機消耗型對單一目標看到確認就創他擊毀了man out of loop這些東西在準則叫飯要履歷清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8806.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8833.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
另外一個就是剛才有委員在問這個你的訓練中心啊如何啊我們做一個建言就是說假設你迎擊部隊能夠編配有兩種到三種不同的無人機我們建議做一個實驗編裝用一個排級單位在直屬這個營底下他有三種飛機那我們訓練的結果這個是可以協助減少很多的不和不要每個人都去試用實驗編裝的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8835.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8864.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
六個月一年之內得出的結果修正準則教範再加上你裝備的編配比最後就是說如果一個比方講一個單獨的操作單位有三種無人機有15架我合格的操作手有多少那真正的這種連戰型的大型無人機要結合國軍的完整的指管他甚至是一架飛機起飛有三個人四個人坐在操作操作室裡面還要結合我們現有的完整的指管系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8865.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8894.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
這個跟這個不能一概而論那這個是魚叉跟美國的先進的這個海麻雀飛彈它在末端就是有一種man in the loop的概念不是全自動那現在最主要的是飛行的控制能力載台的功能圖像傳遞的效能這個我想我提醒我們聯三在協調過程尤其是配合廠商提供的論述要講得清楚是 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8897.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8923.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
軍用無人機的研製中科院我們是支持的中型民用無人機的遠距離的情監針這個整合就是剛剛講的通訊頻寬抗干擾的能力這個我們共同來努力小型無人機如果只是空拍不是急針急打的話比較單純但是急針急打的就涉及到了你的精準度會不會誤判授權的原因所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8925.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8945.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
商用的小型無人機我建議在法規上對即爭即打的定義要強調清楚因為如果誤判錯判烏克蘭打城鎮之間30公里都是在樹林去打俄國的但是如果今天是城鎮戰你對目標的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8946.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8948.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
MQ-9B 整合國軍運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8965.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8991.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
關鍵在於它的料配件是完全要送國美國去修也不做計轉因此未來大型無人機我們還是建議中科院要扮演一個更大的角色這個一定要自己建立那麼這四架飛機會帶給我們一些虛擬的運用觀念也可以用這個立項工程思考的原因啊方法來把我們現有中科院已經有的這個中型無人機做性能提升那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8993.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9021.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
我們也感謝美方長期的支持但是最後我這邊強調的我們真正無人系統的關鍵還是在於中科院民間的廠商能提供部分的協作減少我們研發時間我們是肯定但是在使用單位最後就是跟NCC特別要求給我足夠的頻寬而不是用平常就說買個手機門號的方式沒有關係我可以充分使用暫時這個依靠度如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9022.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9046.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
不是50%甚至30%的可靠那你的使用機率就降低了以上建議提供我們作戰單位運用單位一個參考謝謝委員精闢的指導我這邊用一分鐘來說回應一下委員特別提到這個烏克蘭運用無人艇的一個很成功的案例這個部分我們已經收集很多資料也在做暫時的研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9047.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9072.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
未來會融入到相關的這個戰術研析裡面第二個部分有講到這個無人機的訓練事實上我們的無人機訓練是用一個類別的概念來分類依照軍種的訓練需求現在空軍已經有一個班隊那入軍他要成立一個訓練中心這個訓練中心不是要純粹訓練這些他最主要是要獲得證照 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9074.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9098.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
其他人員的訓練剛剛部長也特別提到要結合到接裝的一個過程還有廠家的訓練這操作是有整體在做規劃的那有關於OneWeb的頻率管理事實上我們跟數位部都已經談好了國科會談好了我們獲得數量都已經按照期程在做那至於它的這個費用的部分也 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9099.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9116.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
在裡面那無人機剛才特別提到我們的跟NCC是讓他有一個導控的頻率還有一個下船的頻率這個分屏的部分我們一直在跟他爭取這個部分由連六持續在跟NCC在協調當中那剛才特別你強調的一個武裝衝突法 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9118.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9131.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
有關於這個所謂的攻擊型無人機我們也把美方要求的嚴禁這個附帶損失管控這個損失把人的因素放在裡面這個我們持續再跟美方再做協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9134.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9158.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
謝謝陳永康委員那聯六如果NCC溝通有問題的話我們可能要給你一個期限我覺得委員會可以當你們的後盾因為傳輸跟控制那個頻寬平時跟暫時確實不一樣你不先備好你平常就會很難用如果你在溝通上遇到官僚體系比較困難的時候我們委員會應該可以幫你們協助做一些不管是決議等等好不好聯六有需求請提到委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9159.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9183.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
整體的戰場環境的評估管理這個謝謝謝謝各位請回我補宣告一下因為剛剛宣告是陳冠廷委員尋答後要處理臨時提案那因為他們發言順序有對調我們修正為馬文君委員尋答結束後我們處理這個臨時提案臨時提案處理完休息5分鐘好接下來進行尋答的委員陳冠廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9199.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9200.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
你好,請部長部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9211.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9236.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
村委好部長好部長我們行政院在嘉義民雄規劃了一個民雄航太園區那這個民雄航太園區主要是要來發展航太軍工還有無人機產業剛好跟今天的主題是一樣的那這個園區主要是164線道來分東西兩側那東邊的部分是中科院的航太及無人機園區那西邊是民雄航太及無人機產業園區 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9239.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9249.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
東邊的中科院的院區是去年12月就動工那目前進展應該是蠻順利,2025年會竣工我想請教一下這個有沒有可能提早完工的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9253.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9272.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
目前就依照進度公進來做明年會完就114年會結束也蠻快的嘛因為完工的時候就開始會有量產我們雅創是做研發的那在民雄這邊是做量產的部分民雄我那個地方是屬於中型的無人機的量產的地方謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9275.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9301.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
但是我們想要請教的是西邊的民雄航太無人機產業園區其實這個我們在總諮詢的時候也問過院長我想請問部長有沒有介紹新的指示就是說這個地方會由誰來負責開發沒有我們在行政院他那邊會做一個決定但我們目前兩邊的都配合在不管工具各方面因為我有聽到我們縣府的這些同仁有提到說如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9301.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9326.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
在有其他的單位,比方說不是中科院,比方說不是以國防部的單位來去處理的話,它怕時程可能會被延遲。所以我想請教,像中科院在龍潭也有類似的園區,龍園園區,上面也有廠商進駐,那同時也可以參與中科院的相關工作,來達到軍民的合作。我想請教這個部分有沒有可能,西側園區可以比照這樣的潛力來去辦理,這種可能性是怎麼樣的? |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9327.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9347.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
市長各位報告我們目前的規劃西設就是廠商進駐來辦公比照的方式就是收租這個方式來走它的規模會比現在我的農園園區的規模還會大很多而且它公用會比現在大很多現在目前在行政院審議當中所有的開發計畫書 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9351.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9374.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所以東邊是由中科院那西邊的民雄航太的園區也可以像這樣居民通用成為居民通用的園區目前就這樣規劃就是一個產業園區由這個廠商來進駐那這個部門是由誰來去統籌的目前當然是由中科院來做整個整體規劃所以東邊跟西邊未來都是由中科院來去做統籌包含招商包含這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9376.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9395.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
東側當然是由中規委員會 西側這個地方就未來我們會跟嘉義縣政府來做一個整體的合作因為我們現在聽到有的說是由經濟部有的說還是國發會還沒有確認各位報告現在目前行政院有這個意見到底主責單位是哪一部分我們建議是由經濟部現在由行政院還在規劃當中是國防部的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9406.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9407.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我們看行政院怎麼指導了 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9408.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9434.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那所以西邊你們還是要做可是是由經濟部來去統籌那都說在西邊怎麼指導是我們是行政單位但是我說假設叫你們質詢你們都那沒有問題嗎我們就是配合政策來做好謝謝謝謝部長部長我們在今天的夜報有看到無人機的這個執行的狀況那主要有中科院委制國內商購還有對外軍購那我們想討論一下國內商購的部分那商規軍用 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9436.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9456.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這個是跨部會合作那研究無人機開發5型共35架原型機那測試合格也未來會亮場我想知道說這類的商規軍用案跨部會協助國內產商研發透過經濟部遴選廠商國歌會投入資金這中間國防部的角色是什麼是提出需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9457.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9480.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
還是有提出相關的協助?我跟委員報有提出的需求,但我們本身的能力有多大,我們也有提出來。因為他是一個整個團隊,不光是完全採購,採購的話透過其他部會的話,不管在獲得方面,或者講說規格方面,都可以變成一個大家都公認可以用的,我們朝這一方去努力。 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9481.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9505.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
另外一個管道中科院委制那這個部分是軍規軍用其實我講這麼多主要是希望說我們未來的嘉義中科院無人機的院區我們希望中科院能夠加強力道跟我們民間的廠商的能量來一起為國防的產業來去努力但是我這邊在提在2017年的時候在國安會的時候去喬治城大學那他們跟史丹佛大學有一個合作那叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9507.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9532.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
MD5 Boot Camp主要就是用5日的密集課程那這個課程主要是什麼把居民的平台給創建起來所以他們由國防部提供大概是5天的密集課程那對象是創業家科技人實驗家甚至還有教師還有矽谷的投資專家然後到美國的太平洋艦隊跟人員交流把美國遇到的國家安全的問題展現出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9533.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9560.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
當場就是這五天讓他們有一個基本的概念之後那未來在這個有可能遇到的問題的時候他們提出這個需求讓他們類似在亥克松的這種狀況之下來去tackle這個問題我想請教在無人機的產業這個部分有沒有可能集結類似這樣的狀況幫我們國家所遇到的挑戰跟需求比方說我們可能不是只是做做這個這個攻擊性的我們做其他的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9561.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9581.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
佈導的訓練等等,我們是需要有各個不同的,還有你要怎麼樣量產,怎麼樣才會有經濟規模,所以他需要的已經不是只有一個技能,就是國防的技能,他可能還是需要說你要大量的商用的話,你可能需要企業家知道怎麼樣這個企業的模型能夠成功,不知道這個部分部長有沒有想過或者是說討論過類似這樣的做法? |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9583.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9600.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
沒有,我就是剛剛委員講的一個團隊它能夠彌補我們國防部所需要的而中衛又不能夠完全達到的而且中衛它已經有方法要得到但是透過不同管道的話獲得會更加快速的就是現在所謂國家無人機隊的組合 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9603.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9617.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
當初陳一也就在這個地方我們一個目標出來了國防部所屬單位能做的儘量由他來做但是他要透過其他部會協助能夠讓這個成品購得或者獲得更快的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9618.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9643.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我們就自然會形成這個所謂的國家集隊的問題都朝這一方面但剛剛委員講他國防部可以召集很多人做一個行動的需求我們事實上就講說這一方面目前要的這個無人機除了商規以外我們國防部所要求的也就未來需要的只是沒有講那麼清楚用在哪一方面但都朝這一方面無人機運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9644.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9647.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
國防部今年採購5款軍用商規的無人機,到時候會有3000多架的無人機服役到國軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9672.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9688.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們也看到一些今日的這個夜報也有提及到需要這個飛手的需求增加我想了解未來這些飛手主要是由自願役來擔任還是義務役有沒有機會來操作所以剛剛委員問的問題剛剛前面陳委員他也特別提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9689.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9702.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
這飛行操作所的訓練,要看機種的。我剛剛只是舉個比例,我們人員跟裝備獲得的同時要做訓練,但有一些不同層級的無人機的操作, |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9707.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9719.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我講這個的部分不是針對國防而已我是針對國防當他們服完役之後未來的所獲得的軍用這些能力他可以來到的應用所以我是希望說鼓勵就是說我們來看一下不同的這個陣仗 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9722.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9748.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那因為其實我們知道說現在的無人機的使用特別是在我們民雄航太園區我們不是只是把它專注在軍用而已我是希望說未來的志願役跟義務役等他們服役結束之後他們所得到的證照可以馬上來去經濟所使用產業上來使用所以現在我看主要我們是用專業基本級的操作認證但是我是希望說有機會的話我們希望在軍中的生活能夠做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9748.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9776.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
準備未來可以在專業高級的操作陣上面他等於是說我們不是只是針對國防目前現在遇到狀況還有未來等到他們這就可能跟退服相關的議題比較有直接的關係了讓他們獲得這些技能之後等到他們離開服役單位的時候他們不一定要在退服會所轄下的企業裡面工作因為他們已經有這些專業技能不管是農用不管是其他的這些產業的用消防用等等馬上就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9777.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9777.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9792.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9797.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我跟委員報告我可以考慮但是他現在未來的效果如何我不敢保證我們發證照給他證照到其他部演的又 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9815.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9815.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
謝謝主席,麻煩請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9851.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9851.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
來布章琴 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9859.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9885.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
法院好部長好部長剛剛要上台之前又看到一則新聞的訊息就是在我們陸軍航特部的有一位一名士官在昨天晚上7點多的時候倒在營區的兵舍前方目前還在ICU病房那可以知道他是甚麼原因嗎目前有掌握嗎請陸軍跟您說 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9888.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9917.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
向委員報告,這個案件在昨天晚上發生之後目前人的確是在經過了一個搶救目前人在家屋病房那在昨天也同步的聯繫了憲兵隊還有這個警方共同去查封現場跟查扣收整相關的政績那目前我們尚沒有辦法就確切的原因向委員做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9918.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9931.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
目前因為又增加了一位,其實在我們今天的巡打的資料裡面我本來一開始也是希望關切這個事情,就是在3月份都還沒有過完 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9933.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9955.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
可是在短短的這樣一個月以內我們其實有九位國軍的軍事官兵其實是不管是自殘也好發生意外也好這樣子的一個事件其實都讓大家非常的不捨跟驚訝可是我們比較在乎的他到底是什麼因素造成的其實剛剛也有提到他可能會走上這樣的一條路 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9962.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9973.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
有很多的因素不管是如果是個人家庭或者感情因素我們可能很難去掌握可是有很大的因素也許是在軍中發生的因為這個可能是這個也不是個案或者個別能夠很簡單的去解決的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9981.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9997.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
因為它是整個結構的問題就我們從去年到今年從過去到現在其實在外交國防委員會也很長的一段時間可是在這麼短的時間我們接到的陳情案件非常高的比例就是它的業務量過重 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9998.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10006.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
不管是來自於很多的家長其實都非常的擔心他們的孩子可能會想不開當然對他們來很多人還是希望他們可以好好的去撐過這一段時間所以我們今天特別要來講這個問題的一個目的是因為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10018.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10043.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
少子化就是一個很大的問題這個不只是我們國軍包括國安都有造成很大的影響那在這樣的一個部分而且我想不會改變了它只會越來越惡化而已今年是十二生肖裡面的龍年照理說龍年生龍子的一個觀念應該少子化的現象會改善可是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10043.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10052.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
看二月份的一個人口出生率反而比去年還少所以我們應該要從其他的部分來加強那為什麼會提到這個部分因為像剛剛提到的不管是他的勤務業務還有訓練這個都會讓他們沒有辦法好好的去舒展他們的身心或者要面臨非常大的壓力這個部分是我們可以調整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10070.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10079.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
可是我們剛剛看到很多委員在關心這個事情的時候大家的面相好像也不太一樣現面參謀長也提到就是我們211營在目前的邊線比是60幾%那發生不幸的事件以後希望把它提升到72%就是會從其他的單位調26名的人員來補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10098.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10098.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
國防部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10119.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10140.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以我接下來要提的就是我們不要再增加這麼多的業務了因為你像這個主客觀的因素沒有辦法改變的情況之下像我們一直不斷持續我們的人力一直在減少我們的募兵的成效也沒有辦法達到尤其是比較艱苦的一些部隊單位根本募不到人 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10141.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10152.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那你的人力越少他的勤務業務量又越多那他就越艱苦那就更沒有人要去所以在那裡的人都非常的辛苦大家都紛紛想要轉走要調走 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10155.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10183.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
可是我們卻不斷的一直要增加新成立的一個單位比如說像過去我們新訓的後備旅我們運動科學推展中心心理輔導衛教中心無人機操作手訓練中心我們還要持續不斷的增加這些訓練中心你只要增加一個中心它就必須要增加人包括主任副主任包括其他的像財務各方面的人都必須要部署進去你又把人稀釋掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10184.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10197.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這對我們來說只是雪上加霜所以像這個部分剛剛有很多今天要提到的部分這個部分我們是不是請部長就這個部分是不是可以給全班的考量因為部長您是從 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10199.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10225.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
基層一步一步上來對於現在整體的發展而且甚至包括國安現在所有的條件面向你是最清楚的這個部分我們適不適合還要設這麼多新的單位你已經沒有人了你讓一個人做三個人的工作或四個人的工作你只要一調走就更業務量更大一直成立這些東西比如說像剛剛提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10228.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10253.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
無人機訓練手的這個部分操作手的這個部分我們那麼多的無人機你現在拿槍的人都不夠了你每一個人還要去訓練無人機我們不是說不要無人機非常重要因為這個在之前我們甚至也提出來了可是國防部不需要做退輔會的工作我們有很多的空軍他是要特別到民間或者成立一個新的訓練中心他才會開飛機嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10256.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10261.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
你今天在我們的航校你就是在航校在陸軍在空軍官校裡面你就開課就好了你就讓很多他們有能量然後去把他好好的學他必須是專才不是每個人都要會 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10273.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10290.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
所以我們希望我們的政策要做了以後不要再去影響其他的,這個部份部長有什麼看法?我跟委員報告,委員剛剛一語道破,就是說希望每一樣工作都有人做得很好,就班隊也不斷地開,但少子化說不光我們國內有這種狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10292.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10301.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我們現在少數法院議長十多年前就已經開始人口減少了所以我們這都考量嘛我也經常跟同仁強調講說我們不要針對這個問題彌補了以後挖東牆補西牆這很忌諱的所以我們一定秉照剛剛委員所講的我現在講的簡單、扼要 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10311.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10330.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
能夠便於操作這第一個第二個問題一發生以後啊我們能夠做到一個地步就是說不要怪罪在基層幹部他們執行力的問題沒有他執行不好但是因為你責任不斷的賦予他的人力就那麼多經驗又不夠當然會出這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10331.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10349.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這我們從全面的我們來做一個改進,但我的經驗就是說,講多了不如務實去做,我們是已經在這樣做了,讓基層幹部把這個任務搞得很清楚,而且很簡單,可以不斷的推動,我們就朝這一方面去努力。 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10350.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10364.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
就這個部分我相信部長也知道他的問題點我們希望不要再一直增設很多很多你必須要把人力抽掉的這樣子的一個單位剛剛我念的那些到頭來他們到底執行了什麼我想這個都是可以去檢視的那我們今天談到無人機當然我們也用一點時間來看看就是說今年當然戰場上不管是 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10376.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10376.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10399.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10402.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
戰場想定上面我們到底需要什麼樣的無人機從現在看起來到目前為止我們顯然都是偵查型的比較多可是我們只是要偵查型的對我們的整體的戰場上面真的是需要的嗎是只是要這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10418.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10441.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
當然我們都希望如果更進一步,剛剛委員表上有打了很多問號,事實上各層級有一些結果,我建議講說是我們請專人到委員會那邊逐項做說明,有很多事情在這個地方公開不好講,而且也沒多久時間,可能越秒大家就變得誤會越深,但國軍在這一方面目前無人機的執行,絕對不僅僅限於 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10444.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10447.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
對於連戰級的或者戰術型或戰鬥型都不一樣,連同操作人數都沒有一概而論,所以黃頓就講他這個層級的劃分他的功能,我們會全方位來做一個檢討。 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10462.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10465.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
好部長因為其實就整個無人機我們的運用或者我們未來的整體國家隊的推動其實就我們的業務報告裡面其實我是有一點意見不過因為今天時間的關係我們可能以後找機會再來做探討可是我們想要利用一點點時間在這裡還是要提出來因為我們剛剛提到就是看到很多的戰場 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10486.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10490.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
實際運用無人機的狀況所以大家都希望把這個能量可以提升可是我們希望我們的無人機其實我們是希望達到集戰力所以會突然編很多的經費我們不管是採購也好或者像要軍購也好其實都是希望可以很快速的去填補 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10509.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10529.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
事實上中科院已經有很長的時間而且花超過至少百億以上的預算其實在研發這個無人機所以它的成效到時候可能要一併的來探討可是我們還是要在這裡提兩個大原則第一個就是形成集戰力的一個很重要的因素就是計轉因為在俄烏戰爭不好意思主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10533.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10548.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
俄烏戰爭裏面或者以哈戰爭其實它最重要的像遊蕩彈藥其實它的模組它可以迅速的轉換不管它是要攻擊裝甲車攻擊人或者其他的它可以很迅速的做這樣子的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10549.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10553.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
所以我們的載體應該是中科院其實已經有一些能量因為你已經花掉太多錢了你結合民間的部分我們要怎麼樣計轉因為國外顯然是非常成熟首先我們如果要形成集戰力第一個就是計轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10566.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10570.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
把這樣已經成熟的一些產品我們怎麼樣技術轉移然後給我們的國家隊不然國家隊到現在幾乎都是系統商也沒有生產線所以不要講得非常的冠冕堂皇說我們做得多好而且還可以避開紅色供應鏈很難至少到目前為止所以這個部分我們應該要怎麼樣去做一個計轉或者怎麼樣尤其是彈藥的部分應該要在國內有生產的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10597.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10619.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
臺灣不可能做不到因為未來必須要量很大而且不可能從外部提供彈藥的部分我們必須要自己去做可以自己去量產就這兩個部分再請部長還有相關的單位可以去做一個全面的考量那我下次有機會再探討就剛剛的部分無人機的反制系統我們請 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10621.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10623.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我們接下來先處理臨時提案請議事人員宣讀原來提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10644.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10655.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
臨時提案．因日前陸軍官渡指揮部．虎啸部隊變貌上使用淺綠色國旗．引發輿論喧嘩．國防部第一時間以第四度概念設計為由駁斥．對比變貌． |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10658.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10674.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
對灰老虎標誌卻能採用高適度斑斕色彩．國防部之辯駁明顯不公而自迫．敬請國防部針對國軍之服裝與配飾應予以徹查．除戰鬥裝備考量需特別製作．適度外 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10674.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10697.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
因重視國旗元素之樣式及色彩．除克遵《中華民國憲法》第6條外．亦不得違反《中華民國國徽國旗法》第二至第4條之規定提案委員徐巧欣、黃仁、陳永康．馬文君、羅志強等．宣讀完畢先請行政部門就修正意見提出．大家看提案委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10702.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10727.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
各位委員好 國防部這邊做以下的幾點建議有關文字的部分在第三行修改為國防部說明易未增周延第四行的部分修正為建請國防部要求所屬對於服裝與配飾應與審查這是陸昌志提出來的修正意見提案委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10729.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10746.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
主席可以讓我稍微做一個簡單的說明嗎那就是呢因為這個禮拜有很多的包含是退伍的軍人都向我們來反映說這個陸軍第6軍團的關渡指揮部所出品的鴨舌帽那要先和先述明它是一個便帽休閒帽並不是戰鬥裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10748.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10770.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那大家就覺得呢為什麼我們要在休閒帽上面使用低適度的國旗那但他前面的老虎頭的部分是黃色的所以這個帽子也沒有所謂低適度這樣子的一個功能那所以呢我們就希望說大家針對休閒的部分呢還是要恪守中華民國憲法第6條以及中華民國的國徽國旗法第2至4條那但 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10771.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10771.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10796.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10797.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11146.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11151.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
好我們休息時間結束我們現在回覆開會第一位進行巡大委員是林鄭副委員謝謝主席是不是請邱部長來邱國正邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11172.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11184.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
部長你好我請教因為根據媒體的報導南韓為了國防的需求另外成立無人機作戰司令部直屬就是南韓國防部由陸海空軍以及海軍陸戰隊構成 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11188.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11199.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
為南韓首支協同作戰的部隊本席認同備戰而不起戰本席支持發展運用無人機防禦作戰請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11205.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11230.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
關於這個作戰編制是否會因為未來擴大運用無人機而成立的這個無人機指揮部會不會啊?我跟委員報告我們大概沒有打算另外再做一個什麼編制但這個任務一定要有單位執行所以我們從任務方面來考量既有的編制他要執行這個任務的哪幾個單位這樣再做一個考慮比較會周延一點這樣齁?那個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11231.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11257.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
因為媒體報導未來可能面臨沒有足夠飛官來駕駛F16戰機的情況情況若要是沒有改善那為了避免攔截防衛任務造成飛官過勞那我請問部長除了應用這個防空飛彈這個對應攔截外那騰雲無人機是否有能力來因應攔截敵機的任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11260.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11261.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
無人機跟電子戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11286.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11308.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
兩者互相影響．台灣眾生不足．一旦開戰如何突破電子干擾．如何避免無人機地面控制站．被鎖定攻擊．相關的防禦措施．請部長你要好好的規劃．規劃好以後再做一個簡要的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11312.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11328.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
整體防衛的問題從徵收怎麼樣來防止徵收被破壞到最後戰力發揮怎麼樣能夠防止他阻斷我們戰力發揮這一個全面的我可以派人跟委員做一個很詳盡的一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11330.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11347.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我國阿帕契攻擊直升機俗稱是坦克殺手．如今惡霧戰爭無人機運用也重創許多坦克．請問部長阿帕契攻擊直升機的防禦任務．未來是否會被無人機所取代 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11350.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11366.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我剛剛有跟委員報告很多東西取代不可能完全取代他會彌補他的不足所以當你要講完全取代我覺得這有一定的一個要商榷的餘地我不能做一個承諾另外我們向美國採購的埃布蘭坦克 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11368.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11382.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
2024年首批將接裝38輛,那請問邱部長,愛布蘭坦克有能力單獨應對無人機的威脅嗎?任何一樣,因為我本身專法兵科我很清楚,防空是任何部隊都要做的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11383.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11411.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
但是戰車防空的話它比一般的野戰防空稍微要好一點就是它可以自己來掌控它要發揚的火力等等但是畢竟它的一個防空方面作為再怎麼強它也是一個消極性的所以戰車還有它有它的弱點那未來它就像這些戰車有沒有相關防禦的這些環制的措施我也是針對防空方面嘛對它有雷達嗎沒有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11413.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11432.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
報告委員,我們在戰車方面,我們的相對的防空,我們還是要靠整個情資的掌握,還有結合我們的戰力保存,還有地形的運用,還有隊形的變換,那基本上每個武器有它的強項,也有它需要克服的地方,想報告部長,如果亦無亦,亦然啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11433.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11442.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
具有這些無人機操作陣入營後：所謂的選兵：這個一無一的藝人是否可以藉此參加專長的徵選：來發揮無人機操作的專長：以除延續民間專業的這些職能： |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11451.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11469.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我跟委員報告,創委在改為一年一期的時候,當中副大尉我講到過,原則上他要分哪些部隊,但他因為他具備某些專長,他也有意願,我們可以看經過一個驗測以後,他可以如願的來做他一個專業方面中文發揮的工作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11470.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11485.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
那個邱部長我在建議本期在建議叫招訓練除了打靶急救訓練外也應該要增加無人機課程的訓練那是不是請國防部思考它的可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11486.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11513.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這類於課程的安排本來就是看到目前有什麼狀況欠缺的把它加進來的吧時間方面也要做考量吧當初為什麼會強化這個打靶啊就不足嘛要加強加強那邊也是要加強但是時間就那麼多你那邊要增加就一定要減少這我們全盤來做考量好謝謝林政府委員部長各位請回接下來進行巡台委員羅志強委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11522.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11525.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
2022年國慶的無人機表演被發現是大陸製的,你知道當時的行政院長蘇貞昌是怎麼反應的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11547.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11559.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我告訴您,他說寧可不要有這種表演,下令行政院徹查,是為什麼有中國製的無人機。我想請教部長,你會不會覺得蘇貞昌有點大驚小怪? |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11560.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11586.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
沒有 我覺得當時環境不好 我不能幫他作答 根本沒辦法 這個我沒辦法好 沒有關係 那我想請教你下一個問題那才不久前嘛 我們的總統當選賴清德到嘉義參觀無人機國家隊現場展出的經緯航太無人機產品馬達是中國製的 引發關注可是行政院院長陳建仁被問到我們無人機國家隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11588.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11610.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
有中國製的馬達,他怎麼回答你知道嗎?請委員知道他說不用大驚小怪,不要就是大做文章那我想請問部長,因為基本上你也在你的報告當中無人機也是將來未來重要的戰略我們的那個武器嘛,就是包括我們的裝備嘛,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11614.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11634.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那這種情況之下我們無人機到底要怎麼樣建制的上位政策應該要很清楚吧就我們國家方向要清楚不然底下你們在建制怎麼建制阿對不對這已經很清楚就是說我們能力以內的一定要自己來建制能力以外的要透過很多管道包含商用商規阿等等都可以納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11635.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11653.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那問題就來了一個行政院長看到大陸製的無人機在國慶表演要震怒策查那另外一個行政院長看到無人機國家隊的馬達測試的馬達是要大家不要大驚小怪我想請問到底我們上位政策是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11655.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11660.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
蔡總統參觀國防工業展曾經業者保證無人機國家隊推動一年多來軍用商規已經是百分之百無中國零件請問我們現在無人機國家隊的軍用商規已經做到百分之百無中國零件嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11683.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11684.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那我很好奇啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11702.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11712.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
既然都已經做到了那為什麼我們在未來總統的賴清德面前還要用中國馬達的無人機來展示測試呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11715.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11740.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這是雙用的我不能夠做一個解說因為這飛機不一樣無人機不一樣這是我剛剛為什麼一直強調的一件事情剛剛部長也講到了就是說一定是軍用商規你也認為要百分之百無中國零件對不對那您剛論點其實跟我們的無人機國家隊長很像你說台灣如果做不出來又買要買進來這是他的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11741.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11741.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我想再請教下一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11761.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11782.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
你知道今年年初我們監察院發現國防部六軍團指揮部龍山營區國防巨人軍旅技藝第三區資源指揮部玉琴營區的邁向勝利高峰還有航空特戰指揮部歸人營區的護衛等公共藝術都是來自哪裡製造進口請陸軍來做說明現在知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11792.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11817.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
大陸廈門啦 監察院說的啦那我想請教您吼那對於這個我們連我們國軍營區裡面的公共藝術吼都有中國製我想請教部長這個總有跟你的業務有關吼你覺得我們應該要像蘇貞昌一樣要嚴肅看待來徹查還是說今天要跟陳建仁一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11817.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11818.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
不要大驚小怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11838.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11850.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我們不能一味的推給基層幹部,他畢竟年輕,經驗不足,所以我把這個責任放到我們自己身上,要做課金輔導之職,這我們就絕對要嚴正來看這個問題,不會輕忽的,但絕對不會任憑去扮人那樣幹嘛,不會這樣子的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11856.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11878.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
好 謝謝部長我覺得還是一句話啦到底所謂中國制在我們國防部的看待裡面到底是嚴肅看待還是說今天跟陳建強不要大驚小怪這叫上位指導如果上位政策都沒拿定的話底下會無所適從以上謝謝羅志祥委員部長各位請回接下來進行詢答的委員是鍾嘉斌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11890.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11904.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
主席．在場的委員先進．列席的政府計劃所長官員．會長工作夥伴．記者媒體女士先生．那有請我們邱部長．還有全民防衛動員署的白署長．以及後備指揮部參謀長薛將軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11913.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11935.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
總委好部長好 署長好 參謀長好來 請教一下部長目前我們看到今天報告是無人機目前我們的編制預定會採購多少無人機我們剛剛用目標是有3000多架3000多架 是不是這樣的分配這將來目標目標嘛那戰鬥層級的無人機目前大概編制多少架你有沒有分成那個連戰還有戰術還有戰鬥 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11943.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11959.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
目前無人機配置到位,有足夠的操作手嗎?需要多少飛手?這也是我們說明以後要界定什麼層級一定要操作手有層級戰鬥型外面一般年輕人都會的,加以訓練以後就可以執行,沒有一個定論 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11963.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11975.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
所以目前你們有統計過部隊裡面的飛手人數嗎?我們有統計過大概是多少人?方便通路嗎?不是需要這樣概略請盡快說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11977.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12001.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
報告委員簡單跟你報告就是剛剛有提到了分三大部分這裡面它不是以操作手為主它是一個每一個系統它有分內部跟外部那簡單講因為我看到你們報告說你們要操作手的訓練規劃你們預計明天培訓在訓練中心打算要訓練多少人我目前為止來講是可以滿足現在就以套裝來講大概多少人現在是200多個人200多個那未來大概如果3000架到位了你們需要多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12002.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12005.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
你知道我們目前國內的民用無人機的總市數是多少嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12019.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12043.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
什麼種數啊?無人機,民用的你知道民用有在用無人機嗎?我知道有民用無人機我們在屏東,我們是農業界,我們叫紙寶機啊專門農藥、肥料,用這個紙寶機在飛你知道大概有多少數量類似民間使用的嗎?數量我不知道,但類別蠻多的,有商用的對,也有空拍的,是那有多少人有專業操作證照嗎?目前這個操作證照是由民航局來發給 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12044.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12063.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
有沒有統計我告訴你目前我們國內有4萬2千架無人機民航局發給證照的將近1萬人這是個很可觀的民間的力量好我們往下看所以我想請教一下如果後備戰力我們可以把無人機的專業飛手納進來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12065.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12091.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我們不會去針對這種專門納鞭哪些人進來在教召當中他有這個具有這個單場的我們來用那我請教一下未來在戰鬥層級的無人機的操作手你們會以現役的官兵來訓練嘛對不對那未來他退伍之後他就是後備軍人嘛他教召的時候他回到戰鬥部隊還是要做那個位置嘛是不是這樣沒有錯但是現在民間的飛手啊他們當年服役的時候其實並沒有這樣的無人機的配備 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12093.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12107.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
現在到這個專長你們要自己訓練現役的官兵我贊成但是這些已經在民間的他也是後備軍人的他現在就是民航局有證照的飛手你們有沒有考慮過去調查這些人當他在叫招的時候讓他來去 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12108.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12126.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
接任這個無人機的飛手的專業位置有沒有可能我跟委員報告沒有刻意去調查但是具有這個專長的在他重新招入營以後我們都會問有哪些專長他填進去就可以用部長不用你問了我們銀行局門可以忙忙你調資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12127.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12147.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
這些民防局都有資料加上了身份證你們一掃就知道他是不是後備軍人我請教一下全動署白署長你有沒有需要資料這些資料需不需要我請民防局提供給你將來我們的後備部隊在實施教招那後備部隊也配發了這個你也不用問他啦你就知道他是了嘛對不對是不是這樣子我們依專長的選擇後職部的參謀長我們薛將軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12151.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12180.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
你們在進行教召的時候,這些有專長的後備軍人,會不會優先配給他,他有那個專長能力的位置?是。是嗎?是。好,來,部長。其實我的問題很簡單,邱部長。其實呢,目前我們有無人機操作陣的,很多都還是我們的後備軍人。那如果教召的時候呢,能夠編入我們無人機的這個專長的位置,這個其實對於疏解我們目前限職官兵他要去受訓。你看你目前200多個,我告訴你,你目前明天有多少人? |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12181.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12197.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
有1萬人那所以呢往下跳來最後那我的結論有沒有可能請我們國防部評估一下目前無人機未來部隊需要的數量還有他需要的飛手人數你們說你們會評估看他套裝的程度那麼這些無人機的飛手他們如果回到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12198.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12199.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
請你們就這樣的專業調查後納入你們的教召考量可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12224.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12249.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我沒有必要去專做一個調查完以後再做調查不用調查啦我直接明天覺得這就給你了啦自然會調查我只能這樣子不能講先調查再叫招不不不部長你一直誤會我的意思了我沒有叫你去調這些人來叫招我是說你在叫招的時候事先掌握這些人的專長能力我也沒有講說一定要找這些人我待會講說委員講先調查拿去就有專業我想真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12253.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12281.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
既然有資料我一調查不就好了嗎?我何必要再去調查咧?調查都是您說的啦!我明央就資料給你請你們在叫召的時候就這些有專長能力的人進行適當的位置安排可以嗎?你有什麼專長填出來你有化學專長放到化學兵部隊去部長我覺得齁其實主意就是站起來我覺得我的單純很簡單我也很單純你根本不用上個世紀的方式還去口頭調查素面調查不用啦沒有啊對啊你們現在就會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12282.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12286.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我問署長,你們可不可以馬上就可以取得?有沒有?可不可以取得?可不可以取得?報告委員,我剛才說,容我簡單我的後備部隊配附了無人機以後我需要這個專長,自然我就會去選沖只要你後備軍人,我有列管理專長,我們自然而然就會去調查,但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12302.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12317.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
前提是我的後備部隊要訓 要教召要訓我要先有這裝備那我們一定會規劃 以上好 謝謝 我達到目的了 謝謝部長 謝謝各位好 部長各位請回好 謝謝委員來 接下來進行詢答的委員是賴思寶委員謝謝主席及各位先進有請國防部的邱部長來 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12340.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12358.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我看到媒體報導有關於你對於中國大陸在內蒙畫一個全尺寸的博愛特區進行要轟炸的事情你有你體系看法我讀了一下你有一句話還蠻有意思的你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12360.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12370.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
你也那個用白話文講啦齁用白話文講啦你在大陸也可以模仿一個地方做親勞你有這樣講做親?親勞喔是對就是用白話文講啦齁他把我們這一塊準備打我們我們也把他劃一塊準備打他們有沒有這個意思你講的是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12384.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12386.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
我們也畫一塊打他們模擬某一個地方啊每個國家要做一個軍事訓練的話都可以模擬啊他模擬打我們我們當然模擬打他啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12401.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12425.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
這才是軍人的本事而已我沒有這樣講,這沒有意義嘛,別瞄頭幹什麼你在座教練不管城鎮或野外,他動作還是這樣子嘛何必搞一個假城鎮呢?在講這個也有啊,我們有這個場地啊但假城鎮代表北京或南京,那倒沒有這樣的設定沒有這個必要沒有這個必要沒有這個必要嘛你這個地方感覺氣勢矮的一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12427.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12430.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
因為在委員這樣講的話你看我們國家目前有哪幾個地方他搞個什麼我們要搞什麼我最少要換一個地方我們模擬一下讓他知道啊說欸 看這樣喔 我也在準備喔那不是更好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12442.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12456.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
委員如果覺得這樣很有意思那就別嘛那你們去別別苗頭我們軍中戰訓本務設定狀況所以就防守就對了啦這個有關啦你是守的概念還是攻的概念現在講說不對稱的戰爭就是我雖然小但是我有機會打你的要害也是個做法是這樣子啊我們這個有反應的概念請問你喔他一定是用飛彈打吧對啊對不對我們攔截率多高啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12472.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12495.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
最好跟最壞,可以攔截他的飛彈?最好攔截,最方便就是他還沒發射就把他給攔截掉啦!他還沒發射你就知道了!不是,我們期望,你剛才講最好跟最壞嘛!最好百分之百,最差勒?最差的話,將近幾公里的材質把他給處理掉嘛! |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12496.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12520.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
有沒有把握他只要進來台灣一定打下來有沒有把握不用什麼把握不把握的好不好我們這個戰區本身誰能打包票誰敢打包票但我們說要讓老百姓安心啊安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心安心 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12524.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12533.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
美軍也不敢有把握哪個國家都不敢有把握有個將軍講說藍潔力大概七成阿他有學問阿你沒有學問是吧對我沒有學問阿我覺得你很有學問你是在講真話我沒有委員報告阿我沒有講這個打嘴砲打個包票做承諾我沒這個膽量我也沒這個必要我是講求很務實的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12551.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12556.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
好 那就跟你講務實的請問你今天是那個無人機啦吼無人機啊這個國防部準備要花錢了9月20號到25號 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12565.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12588.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
UAS系統跟CUS系統就是反無人機系統跟無人機系統這個來台灣結果你報告沒有寫你報告只有寫MQ9事實上呢我們這兩個系統也是要錢他們就談這兩個系統請問報告為什麼不把這兩個系統放進來這兩個你現在的53.4億有沒有包含這兩個系統你是要我意思嗎有沒有包含有沒有包含有沒有包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12596.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12605.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
因為你只有你知道我多用功啊只有MQ9沒有這個UAS跟CUAS系統沒有來講一下沒有包含CUA沒有嘛所以AX也就是說9月22到25號美國的軍售團來了我們準備花錢買這個準備花多少錢大概大約報告委員沒有這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12623.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12627.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
可是 可是卻又來了 美方的資料勒 美國商務部公布的沒有這個政案 所以你們就不寫了好 最後一個問題 那我講完了 這個主席不要催我 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12640.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12644.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
現在無人機 請問你以前在這裡講的嗎?第一級 實體侵犯第一級無人機是不是一定打? |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12656.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12663.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
他只要到我們的領空那現在來了現在來了現在一個問題來了你講的是過去無人機沒有限現在啊來我們看下一頁烏克蘭戰爭使用了有限的無人機二軍的中國制10公里10km烏蘭自治的1km |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12681.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12682.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
干擾槍不好啊干擾不了啊只能夠飛彈打對吧用槍打用槍可以打 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12692.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12710.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
委員你這樣的話,以後把這問題擋下來,只有一個飛彈選項就只有飛彈打,我想只有飛彈打,我們沒有任何專業,所以才只有飛彈打不能干擾,能干擾就干擾,不能干擾有其他武器裝備,不然一定是一個選項嘛那可不可能還是有,飛彈也是選項之一是吧飛彈也是嘛,沒有我只是要提供數字嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12720.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12740.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
五輪機一台美國軍用的五輪機一台一百萬起跳錯了你們可以知道然後多時間到後面跟你講飛彈一顆是將近兩千七百萬兩千六百萬起跳等於我們要打一顆的話我們要二十六倍打它啦就是正是我們外行人看的這個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12741.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12742.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我知道邱部長很不屑的樣子沒關係以後下來再講你現在要以實體來比的話我的比較很簡單不要發生戰爭嘛哪有這樣去比的人命重要還是一枚飛彈重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12757.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12758.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
下一位巡達委員 楊瓊英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12793.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12794.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
謝謝主席 本席想邀請部長好 部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12811.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12824.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
姜維好部長好部長剛剛回答有一句我們聽了就是比較放心因為你說不期望期望不要有戰爭發生但是如果有不對稱的情況之下有所克制 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12825.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12827.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
馬前總統預計4月1日至11日率領青年學子赴中國廣東、陝西及北京參訪 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12849.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12872.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
外界也在非常的關注同時陳院長昨天也表示了他希望馬總統表達臺灣是民主權獨立的國家而且捍衛臺灣的自由民主你認為這樣子對我們是不是有論法的作用有什麼作用兩岸 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12873.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12899.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我覺得任何一項工作只要對我們防治戰爭有幫助的話都是正面的,我都沒有來而已那我們也希望在兩岸局勢的這個情況之下那這一次的出訪能夠做雙邊的論滑劑來維持我們中華民國主權的情況之下讓彼此都能夠稍微降溫緩解對兩岸的情勢能夠有所幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12900.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12900.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
目前準總統賴清德先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12927.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12942.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
他參觀了這個亞洲無人機AI創新的研究這個鹽水中心那媒體鋪路竟然在這個馬達是中國的Made in China引發了關注這到底怎麼回事呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12945.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12945.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12969.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12997.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
當然啦那個經委他是民間的廠商啦所以他用的是他的中國製品但跟我們院裡面我們國軍的是沒有任何關係的我們院裡的當然他雖然會標我中科院的案子可是這個引擎部分是沒有請他幫忙的引擎部分怎麼樣引擎部分他沒有參與只是做機體製造而已所以他跟我們中科院向多引擎部分是沒有任何關聯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12999.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13015.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
所以這個媒體披露了讓大家會質疑也就是說在我們的部件裡頭是不是也原則同意如此那你這麼說明讓社會大眾會更加的清楚我們也不希望有任何的一個誤解所以在這邊要請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13018.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13039.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
無人機的部分似乎是目前新時代空中戰力很重要的一環所以我軍也一直在佈建那剛剛你也說了不對稱的客制所以要請教部長目前為止全世界有這個方向有這個佈建那我方呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13040.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13061.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
後備的在叫招的部分當然如果需要他們會有所因應會有所因應那但是在我們目前為止在我們的整軍佈軍當中你認為我們的無人機呢目前我們的部件程度是不是如你們原先預定的這個角這個進度呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13063.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13087.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
我們每一個都要他竟然要多少架或是哪類型飛無人機我們要建置多少能夠操作人這都整個計畫裡面所配套的目前的數量我們也同樣在同步進行人員訓練但剛剛委員提到有些無人機不見得一定要很高水準的操作手術技術但我們會把分類 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13088.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13091.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那經過部長你的說明換句話說也就是目前我們不管在設備方面以及人力未來的管理管控我們都同步進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13114.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13134.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
都同步進行所以目前的進度還是依照我們預計的進度在執行中按照進度所以還是按照這個進度在執行所以也是跟著這個國際的腳步我們都有準備之就像您說的不對稱的這個克制我們都有法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13134.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13157.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我跟委員不是跟著國際腳步跟著我們自己計劃的腳步在走的可是我們自己的計劃腳步也是要有那是參考嘛參考我們各國國情不一樣嘛委員不要把這問題扯成好像變成很大一樣這就是我們戰訓本務的一個範疇我們要什麼裝備要到人操作這同步在進行就是您剛才說的嘛國際的參考我們自己預計範圍是怎麼樣我們現在是依照這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13163.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13176.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
這個腳步進度在執行之嘛,都是掌控中嘛,對不對?好,謝謝,謝謝蔣淳英委員,部長各位請回那個中科院你狀況要掌握一下,那隨便Google就有訊息的 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13178.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13197.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
那個經緯航太那個是英國跟土耳其共同研發的JACO裁狼無人機為了去除紅色供應鏈才送來台灣要把那顆引擎換成Made in Taiwan的不是我們展出的有Made in China不是那一回事所以因為他們將來JACO |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13198.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13227.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
土耳其跟英國都要賣到全世界民主國家包含印度都規定零組件主要零組件不能有中國製造所以送來台灣放在那裡展示不是台灣的業者也不是你們用了中國零件他反而證明要來台灣找非中國零件我一個早上聽到現在你們都沒有給部長正確訊息我實在受不了了我幫你工作做了你自己檢討好不好謝謝我們接下來進行詢答的委員是林益君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13238.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13239.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
主席有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13259.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13265.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
委員好部長好所以前面的委員其實已經問過了但是我還是再確認一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13270.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13289.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
因為前幾天我們總統賴清德在嘉義視察無人機國家隊生產基地的時候就被記者發現有一款的才藍無人機螺旋甲驅動馬達是中國製造那本席覺得很奇怪蔡總統不是要宣誓要建立非紅供應鏈嗎怎麼會出現中國製的零件呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13290.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13308.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
所以我剛剛這個問題很多委員問了,這個第一個我也不在場,但我看了照片以後他們就有答覆了,這不是軍事方面的用途的飛機,無人機不是嘛,所以剛才中國也有說明嘛,那再講一遍好了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13310.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13338.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
跟委員報告一下當然那個展示 再確認一下 對展示也 但是因為那個產業界邀請了長官去的那中科院並沒有參與這部分那至於他 當然我們中科院當然是放清楚中科院到底有沒有用這些廠商的錄製品那我們院裡面是絕對都嚴格把關把它不會留到我自己無人機生產的這部分的部分絕對是沒有的我們絕對是沒有的 是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13340.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13344.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那部長首先你知道無人機本來就有軍民通用的特性嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13345.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13372.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
有一些無人機是軍民民間在用,但軍方發現它有些料件可以用在軍方也就自然就有軍民共用了好,謝謝部長那羅賢講的馬達的時候是外露的嘛但是我們怎麼會知道裡面的零件是不是中國製的可能也看不到這樣所以這樣在測試的時候除了馬達之外還會不會有一些零件的話在測試的時候是中國製的呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13374.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13378.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
其實錄製品不光是無人機,中科院對所有的產品,不但是我們一直深入到原料,原料要查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13389.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13419.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
原料怎麼查核,我們在製程的時候,像我們合格供應商,我們查他,就是不光是製程,還有原料從哪裡來,會查他的進口、保管,所以等等,包括無人機在內,我們都做清查,但重點是在哪裡,重點是在他的關鍵性的零組件,就是含記憶體,儲存功能,這才是我們查的重點,這個是查的重點,這部分呢,我們是會嚴格來查,而且不但查是拆下來查,這方面都做成人把關,特別跟我們做說明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13423.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13431.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
雖然中國在商用無人機的市場其實在全世界它是有一點壟斷性的競爭力但歐美各國現在大部分都是意識到中國製的系統的風險也蠻大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13435.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13441.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
所以現在在我國政府採購上面都開始必須排除中國製的資技同時臺灣的MIT自我研發無人機產品是一個大好的機會所以我想部長應該是也很清楚才是所以想提醒部長一下如果臺灣想用先進製造能力代工軍用產品或出口MIT的軍用到歐美國家進一步發展國防產業的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13459.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13466.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那可能就是還是一樣要排除一下這些紅色供應鏈就是國防部應該要想辦法做到的嘛萬一未來如果再被發現如果有這樣的零附件那可能就是會影響到台灣製造的聲譽所以請部長務必要確保這些無人機未來在量產的時候不要再像雲豹甲車還是天宮飛彈那樣被不肖的廠商混入中國製的零件因為這樣無人機是有出口潛力的好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13487.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13491.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
一般遇到中共有人戰機侵擾台灣周遭空域甚至進入ADIZ的時候,我們應處的措施是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13514.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13531.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
我們已經有講了臺北防衛作戰裡面都有很多規定突發狀況該怎麼處理已經他當初對這個第一級的界定我們沒有講刻意要改變但因為他現在軍品研發不再界定於飛彈或者火炮槍彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13533.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13553.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
所以它只要一個實體,我們就按照我們的突發狀況處置規定來做應處。但一有什麼空中的或海上的有任何不管是動態的話,國軍在目前是在這一方面都可能掌握得住,何況也透過其他管道都可以獲得當前狀況的一個掌握。 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13554.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13579.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
謝謝部長說明因為最近一兩年來中共無人機開始都是加入騷擾臺灣的周邊的空域嘛頻率其實是越來越高的啦然後也逐漸有新的機型加入但是是我國面臨新型態的灰色地帶的戰略作為那本席辦公室最近也整理出侵擾臺灣周遭的無人機的幾個特點分別是飛行的速度慢還有滯空的時間長 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13581.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13581.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
請問部長這樣同意嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13599.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13612.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
我同意,因為我們會遭遇到強烈要做一個表達不能認同的原因在哪裡,我們訓練空域就那麼大,你不但壓縮一定會影響到,所以我們當然要做一個應處。 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13614.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13624.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
既然部長同意的話那中共無人機確實給我們帶來很多的困擾嘛那本席要請教一下部長中共無人機來侵擾台灣周遭的空域的時候我們的飛機要跟監的速度跟不上然後要賠他的繞賴力也沒有他好想要把他趕走又找不到人那請問部長那面對無人機的侵擾空域國軍的應對措施是什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13639.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13668.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
我跟委員報告,《突發狀態措施》規定裏面對於人、機、船、艦等等都有一個應處的方式。你講說如果抛射狀態要怎麼應處,要一樣樣搬出來的話,那我們有得談了。但原則上我們已經講過,我們颱風防衛作戰,你只要預約我們所應該要守護的一個界限的話,我們就要當作來意不算來處理吧。那處理方法,我們也要精打細算,不要拿飛彈打人家小無人機。 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13669.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13687.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
這一定要經過一個合理的一個研判所以為何我要求我們同仁說在部隊裏面對於可能發生的狀況要設定設定以後來嚴處我們如何來因應這就是我們部隊訓練的劇本之一我們把握這個機會當然不做一個定論講他一來我們要走的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13689.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13714.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
這多分類別不能夠一架下來做討論的那先前國防部已經修改了所謂第一級的要件所以本席想請教部長在什麼情況下國軍會下令開火擊落中共的無人機這修訂我講說原因我要先跟各位講一下因為當中界定一定飛彈火炮這為了第一級對我們造成傷害大家也看到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13715.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13742.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
這環境的變遷無人機它也是個威脅蠻大的造成我們心理方面也會有影響啊所以我們才來做這個修訂不見得要傷到人只要對我們心理會造成危害那我就把它當作來意不善來意不善我們就要有來意不善的處理方法但沒有因此而去主動去挑釁還去抓他來了那我們當然要做一個防衛固守這是範疇之一了 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13743.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13769.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
包含在我們的防衛作戰裡面一點都沒有預約我們的規範好那最後本席還是提醒部長無人機在未來的戰場上應用其實未來的話會越來越廣泛其實中共無人機發展速度也是非常快的請國防部務必要跟國安局緊密的合作然後時勢愈近提早你一定應對的策略不然兩岸一旦發生衝突的時候我方可能會陷入非常不利的地位 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13772.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13786.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
謝謝委員 謝謝部長好 謝謝林委員 請回 謝謝接下來 訓打委員 游浩 游浩委員 游浩委員不在接下來 訓打委員 吳思耀委員 吳思耀委員 吳思耀委員不在接下來進行訓打委員 張祺凱委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13803.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13823.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
好,謝謝主席。請保定。來,保定,請部長。我請中科院的一起好了。莊委員好。部長好。是。那個無人機出現沒得飲菜,已經被問了一個早上了。我先講結論好不好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13825.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13847.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
我們的軍用無人機百分之百棄紅色供應鏈,也就是不應該破功,對不對?也不會破功吧?就是我們落實國產化應該是可以完成的,對不對?可以做這樣的宣示嗎?可以啊,我們現在目前都已經就照這個規範來掌握對,部長跟中科院,因為我是自己的孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13848.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13868.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
中科院願意到嘉義來設這個我們無人機AI的創新研發中心這是我們嘉義人的驕傲那可是當賴清德去了看到這個我覺得要跟民眾講清楚為什麼會出現那個馬達上面有Made in China他是為了測試嘛對不對事實上整個無人機大家看一下無人機有五大系統那個馬達是非常非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13872.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13886.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
非常低階的啦我相信依照台灣的科技跟工業技術這個無人機運馬達我們可以做啊對不對所以有兩個重點嘛第一點它是為了測試才出現在那個地方對不對第二個我相信依照我們的追準我們做得到沒問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13888.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13909.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
是不是?這樣應該把疑慮可以解決可是相對我要問一個重點雖然馬達是那麼低階的可是那有兩個比較高階的啊飛控跟導控這是比較高階的嘛對不對?飛控就像人的大腦一樣那這部分中科院目前掌握的進度是怎麼樣?不會弄到又是 made in China 對不對?可以 made in Taiwan 嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13909.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13923.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
這兩部分可以嗎我跟委員報告你確實無人機是五大系統飛控跟動力那比較小的其實國內的人量都有這是實在話所以我們幾個小型飛機我們都試上 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13924.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13945.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
所以你說不只是馬達在導控跟飛控這部分我們已經可以做得到對不對那中大型的它導控的這個部分就比較複雜這部分還包括整個抗崗樓這個鏈結都是由中間自己來生產來製作你的意思是目前在飛控跟導控我們已經做得到是不是不只是馬達 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13946.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13963.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
這個是要接受檢視的喔在國會殿堂好不好很清楚的跟全國民眾講這是馬達飛控跟導控臺灣的工業跟科技能力是可以做得到的所以我們要達成金融飛機的百分之百國產化沒有問題OK好謝謝來部長我請教你一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13964.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13984.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
部長你最近有注意到前國安委秘書長丁玉洲的這個中戰的這個指導你個人贊成嗎他認為說他應該跟蔡英文總統特別是賴清德準總統提醒要趕快制定你贊成嗎我跟委員報告對任何一個不管學者專家他們所發表意見我相信都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13985.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14002.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
有依據的有它利潤基礎我不會去做評論但正常來講的話起戰的話要起戰之前是要有中戰但我們國家並沒有這個起戰的這個作為我沒有啊完全沒有但要不要有中戰之道那就這不是我們層級對我軍方層級來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14005.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14031.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我所謂所謂中戰就是我們已經講了就是奉陪到底吧但我不做這個把當作一個中戰指導來看這是知識體大這高層級而且政治方面考量的這不是我來答覆的部長兵法上面講的要起戰要開始打仗很容易嘛中戰非常困難嘛現在講的你看烏克蘭跟俄羅斯已經打了快兩年了對不對現在我去看他最新的這個統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14033.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14051.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
烏克蘭這邊死傷已經18萬到26萬俄羅斯更多了30萬可是損害誰生靈塗炭更嚴重戰場在哪裡在烏克蘭所以戰爭沒有贏家嘛部長一向是悲天憫懷的我知道我看了你長久的這個發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14052.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14070.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
所以要避戰嘛對不對我覺得丁怡說這個更高層的不是中戰就是你要知道那個對只要一打仗對兩邊的民眾都是不好的所以是不是他一個重點反而是慈悲為懷要先避戰那第一個我現在要提要特別要請問部長的是所以你會不會如果總統不管是蔡總統或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14071.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14092.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
賴準總統問起你,你要本身要有一個中戰的一個指導,你會怎麼跟他講?還是只有回覆你剛剛講的,你不會只有奉陪到底吧?要打就來嗎?我跟委員報告,我剛剛講我的身份地位我很清楚,軍人該講什麼話,做多少本務工作,就我的確我應該要有科興職責。長官如果要問的話,我會就我的立場來講,來看。 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14094.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14119.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
所以到目前沒有任何人問我你看法如何就算我看法如何我也是就一個軍事立場來講但我會建議盡量避免起戰這個是必然的從古到今而且在部長任內很多不管是先進各方面都一直在跟我強調戰爭真的陳副官務委員講的沒有贏家我也曾經講過要打贏也是產勝 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14121.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14137.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
要打敗就決定慘敗,都沒有贏家,不樂意見到所以部長避戰,然後慈悲委懷這個大家是肯定的那現在就是因為已經有人提了這個中戰這一塊嘛對不對,你剛講又沒有贏家嘛所以你現在如果總統或者是賴副總統,準總統問你的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14140.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14157.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
你會贊成他定一個像定一周講的中戰?我會講中戰的要起戰要先定中戰所以先不要戰了對不對?對先不要戰所以就沒有中戰你要開始打那你先要定好你的目標到什麼地步但我們國家並沒有要發起戰爭的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14160.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14164.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
現在俄羅斯跟烏克蘭就停不下來啊兩邊都不讓步美國又進去都停不下來啊我們怎麼辦是不是要有一個準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14189.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14202.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
萬一擦槍走火我們要做什麼準備?我們的平常戰備就做什麼準備嗎?我還是一點點時間啦,因為部長剛剛講的很重要,奉陪到底之外有沒有可以停下?我們避免起戰,開啟戰爭,這是我們主要的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14210.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14229.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
但是有一些政治的範疇我們不必很清楚,但是問我的意見的話我會把我們軍事的左眼、立場來講清楚就是說盡量要勝戰啦,謹慎地勝啦,我一直在講勝戰勝戰,避免戰爭,那萬一如果不小心,現在二一螺旋在上來我們就克盡我們軍人的職責不會只有奉陪到底,還會有其他的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14237.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14257.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
讓人民可以安心不會森林塗炭謝謝謝謝好謝謝部長我們通常不會在國會講中戰條件你把中戰條件燙乾給對方看不是燙給對方啦要有一個所以這個有時候是要討論的好不好本來在講因為也有人認為說這是一個敗戰的一個事實上不是敗戰嘛對不對事實上第一種講的第一種講的是說盡量避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14258.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14269.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
盡量避免,然後講兩戰爭打起來,你像烏克蘭跟俄羅斯,俄羅斯那麼大,現在烏克蘭也沒有輸啊。我用幾秒鐘的時間,我來跟你們做說明,大家都不要那麼敏感,你要準備,你要從我表現成本才會有暗示。但你要問國防部來做個評論,你一定要把他拖進去啊。沒有啦,部長我不是拖你進去,我是讓你。 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14282.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14282.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
接戰的SOP |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14304.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14305.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
本來要做好所有的配套啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14324.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14351.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
做好所有準備,今天部長答的很好可是要好好討論,人民才能安心,好不好好,我們接下來詢答的委員是蘇清泉委員,蘇清泉委員,蘇清泉委員不在接下來詢答委員,王宏威,王宏威,王宏威委員不在李博義,李博義,李博義委員不在鄭振前,鄭振前,鄭振前委員不在洪孟凱委員,洪孟凱委員,洪孟凱委員不在鄭天才委員,鄭天才委員,鄭天才委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14352.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14365.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
今日已登記質詢委員除不在場外：均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本次會議由王宏威委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14368.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14369.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
本日會議到此結束,散會大家辛苦了,謝謝。 |