| IVOD_ID |
15754 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15754 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-25 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-25T08:31:17+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-25T12:47:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:15:43 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea10c940d6246953a269e13353c436ea853be8d109af184be42faa3192723ae80a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會「海洋保育法草案」公聽會 |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:17 - 12:47:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1216.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1257.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1258.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
MING PAO CANADA |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1841.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1870.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我們一位我們的專家學者針對海洋保育法草案公聽會現在我們開會針對行政院所提出海洋保育法的草案如何保護海洋生態的環境保育海洋生物多樣性協調並促進海洋保護區規劃及執行以達海洋永續利用之目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1871.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1896.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
以及本院各委員提出的版本從我們原住民權益以及移民的權益海洋保育的教育審議會組成機制等提出不同的條文為使法案更為作業完善我們特召開此公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1897.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1926.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
聽取各位專家學者的意見我們會詳細記錄以各位的高見並列入我們立法院公報記錄中作為法案討論時的參考首先我來介紹我們學者出席的委員及政府機關代表今天的公聽會程序如下請先 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1928.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1930.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
海洋保育署署長黃向文 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1956.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1986.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
中和規劃處副處長黃炎魯內政部國家公園署署長張偉傑國土管理署專員林玉璇警政署行政署副組長許明耀人事室副主任劉永福 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1989.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2013.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
地政司科長陳秀美經濟部能源署副組長鄭魯銘地質調查及礦業管理中心科長林振宏產業園區管理及專門委員林國隆 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2017.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2024.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
李國榮國營會事業管理師科長林漢龍台灣電力公司處長溫環正台灣中油公司王少培 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2045.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2049.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
交通部行政室檢任基政鄭鴻鎮 航港級組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2071.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2096.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
農業部漁業署副署長王振芳水產試驗所組長張可陽林業保育署技士張俊佳原住民委員會經濟發展處處長宋麗如 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2102.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2129.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
環境部水質保護師檢任濟政劉國書秋國師文化部文化資產及古物遺址組組長周燕如好 謝謝我們以上的官員然後我們本會的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2132.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2153.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
高津樹梅召委牛行廷委員張柱仁委員徐以貞委員王美惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2170.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2190.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
公聽會專家寫者首先邵廣昭教授廖振信教授院長鍾慧瑄副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2196.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2219.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
張毅教授施宗平專員葉宇軒李平順理事長邱文彥教授林啟昌總幹事 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2225.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2246.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
歐慶賢教授尹德坤總幹事陳春生總幹事潘真祥主席黃俊修教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2255.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2257.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2271.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2282.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
先請我們部會檢報後再請我們的學者專家發言一順序簽到委員者每位發言時間為8分鐘二 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2285.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2307.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
本院委員要發言請至主席台登記以兩位專家寫者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間為5分鐘最後由本會的機關代表回應說明三、發言台正前方的燈號到時計時發言時間節遲前1分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2313.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2336.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
會按鈴一聲 發言時間結束則按鈴兩聲那現在我們請我們部會做簡報首先先請海洋委員會吳美紅副主委來報告好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2344.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2361.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
主席 還有各位委員 各位專家學者先進 各位女士先生今天應邀列席大院內政委員會 海洋保育法草案公聽會以下緊究法案內容簡要說明 敬請各位委員 各位專家學者先進指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2362.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2362.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2380.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2401.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
其需要一部整合型能夠全面積極保護、賦育以及管理的法律因此海委會提出海保法草案從海洋保護區的網絡架構以及海洋生物保育等面向來著手在海洋保護區的網絡的部分參佐海保法草案的第5條海洋保護區的類型臺灣現有海洋保護區計有69處5401平方公里 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2408.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2424.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
透過草案第二章海洋保護區第6條的規定海委會將會商跨機關完成整體海洋保護區的管理政策方針來提升整合的成效這個部分將是海保法通過之後的第一要務 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2425.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2435.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
此外海保法草案第5條第二項引進國際間積極推廣的其他有效保育措施的區域有助於朝3030的國際目標邁進也減緩不同團體間可能的資源衝突與 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2442.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2463.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
在周延海洋庇護區劃定程序的部分,依海保法草案第7條到12條的規定,將以科學為基礎,以審議會採納各方意見,公開透明劃定的程序,以及第28條保障具有習可行為等來折衷各方的權益,並使海洋庇護區能夠發揮成效。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2465.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2482.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
在兼容資源保育與產業永續的面向上面,廣大的海域面臨各項海洋產業、業永續、原住民傳統利用等等的活動,為了兼顧彼此的平衡,海保法草案第3章為此建置了協調機制,包括草案第13條提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2485.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2509.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
可能受規範的行為太樣都應該會商目的事業主管機關包括交通部、農業部、經濟部、原民會等等被與相關人為活動來取得平衡此外也必須經由審議會的機制來做充分的討論包括漁民團體、原民部落、環保團體等權益相關者都將受邀參與審議會透過審議會的機制來直接表達意見參與決策 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2514.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2540.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
另外草案第28條則對於海洋庇護區劃定前與宜該海域合法取得目的事業主管機關同意許可或核准之行為者設有信賴保護原則的過渡條款在接軌國際的面向首先海保法草案呼應聯合國永續發展目標第14項保育及永續利用海洋資源以確保永續發展的多項具體目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2542.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2562.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
其次因應生物多樣性公約,也就是昆明蒙托羅全球生物多樣性的框架海保法草案以其呼應者,例如草案第2章有關海洋保護區及以2030保護30%的沿海與海岸區域等,也就是3030作為努力的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2564.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2582.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
草案第3章各條則是呼應公約落實第4項至第10項有關各種生物資源的保護以及永續利用以及第20項到第23項有關國際賠利、資訊流通、原住民參與、性別平等等等的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2583.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2604.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
最後結語本會在推動海保法草案的制定過程當中特別重視社會溝通的環節前後召開數十場的公聽會以及座談會等盼能夠凝聚對海洋保育議題的共識海保法草案是臺灣首部針對海洋生態保護的重要法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2605.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2628.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
追求的是海洋生物資源永續更是確保海洋各類生態系服務與產業永續的基礎工具法案的通過只是建立制度的第一步未來還需要藉由產學研各界共同投入執法的訂定、審議會的成立以及最佳的科學資訊逐步進展來達成保護海洋的終極目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2630.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2641.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
眾上的說明,敬請指教,也感謝各位委員的提案,以及各界所提供的寶貴意見也請大家一起來支持海洋保育法的立法,謝謝好,謝謝我們海洋委員會我們的副主委所報告那現在我們請農業部的一夜暑王振芳副署長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2663.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2690.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
主席成功各委員會邀請農業部出席本次公聽會緊急海洋漁業資源永續利用管理及現況以及海洋保育法草案涉本部部分進行說明本部為全國漁業產業輔導機關依據漁業法第一條保育合理利用水產資源之宗旨以各直轄市縣市政府共同推動海洋漁業資源之養護管理相關措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2693.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2694.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2720.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2747.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
責任漁業那針對鹽積染氧氣經營策略檢要說明檢討作業遺傳數部分漁業遺傳消促及種料管制部分從七十八年起實施遺傳太監制度並辦理遺傳收購前面管控遺傳數我國遺傳垮數量從七十八年的三萬三千多艘遺傳降為一百一十二年的兩萬一千多艘減少一萬兩千多艘 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2749.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2765.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
休餘獎勵,自91年起,實施獎勵休餘計畫,鼓勵移民集中在一夜之間密度高的高峰期作業,離峰期在港休息,讓一夜之間有喘息呼籲,迄今已參與喘息處每年大概有9000以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2766.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2779.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
第二,1屆7地環境特性訂定一頁移棄漁法作為規範本部隊偷網、爬網、鎖管等等網棲一頁訂定3-12里禁漁區並輔導各直轄市縣知政府訂定次網、攏棲、燈火一頁禁漁區區規定以維護沿近海7地環境及資源永續 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2791.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2808.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
3.依據重要經濟儀種科學研究成果定定管理規範本部儀業署及水產實驗所進行資源調查及評估研擬定定預防性管理措施目前已針對特定物種如青森、莫苗 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2809.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2825.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
滿苗、巡協所管、委員交料等物種訂定基於期期、遺傳基於消息、總席格補貨量、財補限制等規定不輔導地方政府訂定櫻花蝦、刺蝟青蝦、海膽等特定經濟物種規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2827.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2839.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
第4加強區域環境管理及維護,福島發射水產動質物環質保護漆,以福島10個地方政府發射30處水產動質物環質保護漆,並落實管理,並定期進行生態 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2844.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2868.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
第二,維護人工移交區,輔導各地方政府及企業會已公告的89處人工移交區禁止以網際遺傳作業,並辦理互網清除,維護交區生態環境及技藝效益。第五,放留優質畝界種苗,增益漁業資源,本部於100年發布訂定水產動物 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2870.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2883.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
動物專職放流限制及應遵守事項放流優質以備介苗彌補自然生產力不足並每年編列預算辦理疫苗放流每年平均放流約1200多萬位海域執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2885.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2906.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
本部海洋委員會海警署及地方政府共同執行專案計劃加強海上及岸際揮發補儀取締工作並提高執行能量維護遺傳周圍自治與屹立棲地環境及資源永續第3行政院版的海洋保育法涉本部的部分其中有包括第5條 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2908.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2929.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
第7、第12條、第13條、第19條等等有關將本部有訂定的防治保育區內的海洋保育區之一以及整個海洋庇護區的劃定以及預算作業的相關規定以及後續的一些參與一些計畫調查等等的再來決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2930.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2947.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
海洋委員會為具體落實我國海洋環境保護生物多樣性之保育及呼應並促進海洋保育區整合規劃明定海洋保育法草案以漁業法保育合理利用水產資源之立法目的一致農業部競表支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2948.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2972.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
一頁為眾多海洋產業之一,海洋保育法透過海洋庇護區審議參與與結社前保育區兼容永續利用行為以及信賴保護原則保障一頁權益,歷史審查會本部均有參與討論後期海洋保育法經大院商讀通過,總統公佈後其透過機關合作兩者相互相整,共同維護海洋生態 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2973.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2979.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
環境資源以利海洋環境及漁業產業共創酸盈報告完畢謝謝好謝謝我們農業部漁業署我們的副署長那我們其他單位的報告我們就自行參閱並刊登公報那我們首先我們就來邀請我們專家寫者登記第1號邱文彥教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3003.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3003.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
請上話音台 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3020.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3042.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
主席、各位委員、各機關代表還有各位在座的先進大概在20幾年前大家都是為了要保護我們的金豚所以當時我曾經倡議比照美國的海洋部落動物保護法來擬定海洋保育法 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3043.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3044.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
委員會提出海洋保育法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3059.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3059.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
主管機關參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3085.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3103.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
海洋保護區的畫設,事實上也是海洋空間規劃的一環依照歐盟2014年海洋空間規劃的一個指令第一個部分,它有幾個非常重要的要求第一個就是希望把權益關係的人要能夠納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3105.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3127.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
全域關係的納入是非常重要的一件事情另外海洋保護區的化設當然是需要以生態系統為基礎的方式另外就是非常重要的以科學的調查資料來作為化設的依據我記得在去年聯合國在巴塞隆納召開海洋空間規劃的工作坊的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3128.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3150.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
特別提到其實有很多的科學調查可能來不及或者是不夠完整但是呢漁民或者是原住民的傳統智慧其實可以補足這個部分所以我覺得這個部分我們對於既有的權益關係人的傳統的智慧就應該要非常非常的重視跟關切 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3152.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3173.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我想再舉幾個例子給大家做一個參考聯合國在1971年制定了國際重要勢力公約我們簡稱叫RAMSA Convention就在伊朗的拉姆薩制定的最近這幾年來他非常強調一個方式或者是一個計畫叫做SEPA |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3174.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3201.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
CIPA program講的就是溝通C是communication溝通E是Education是教育P是Participation是參與A是Awareness是提升民眾的意識所以這個CIPA它是認為說任何化保護區都必須要聽取各方的意見能夠納入然後把它變成一個很好的教育跟參與的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3204.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3225.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我記得在102年我們在這邊通過了失地保育法當時要通過的時候當然有傳統的使用者包括漁會漁民都關切到失地這個地方化保護局會不會影響他們的重來的作業或者是一個生活的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3226.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3245.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
所以當時王建平院長要我跟當時的秘書長一起起草附帶決議附帶決議就明文的列出來重要實體範圍的土地得為農業、漁業、原業跟建物等重來之現況使用而且為了要確保漁業的使用權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3247.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3258.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
決議由主管機關在必要的時候得以行政命令補充解釋有些的概念或者是必要的條件如果沒有辦法納入條文裏面附帶決議是不錯的方式可以作為一個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3263.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3263.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3283.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3284.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
海洋保育法草案公聽會委員：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3311.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3336.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
所以我們當時提出來的時候我個人的版本就提出來把它改成重要水產資源的培育地區但是當時的漁業署建議的是改成保育地區所以最後通過條文就保育地區因為我們是認為說小魚小苗這個重要的這個繁殖的地區密飼場所等等這個地方保護下來那麼魚將來長大以後游出去我們就永遠有魚爪 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3337.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3337.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3360.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3361.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
總幹事林啟昌先生親自說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3391.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3391.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
第10條 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3407.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3431.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
海洋滅戶區的緩衝區內的非經主管機關許可禁止下列行為但是如果符合前條第一項第一款第二款就是國防外交或者是海洋污染或者海上救難就容許這些項目這就變得很奇怪了所以那個語意是不是可以變得直接的用正向表列的方式來做說明所以我想這些東西都是一個小地方但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3432.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3461.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
也是可以來進行討論的那海洋庇護區的這個組成行政院版裡面都特別提到省議會的各方代表是保二分之一但是我們認為說參考這個長期照護法我們覺得三分之二是可以考慮的當然要不要明顯不同的團體比如說漁會或者原住民其實是可以討論但是過去有很多不愉快的案例都是政府部門的這個代表的二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3462.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3490.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
民間團體不到二分之一的時候法案很多案子就通過了所以從審慎的角度這個代表能夠三分之二可能是比較適合的國外有很多的海洋保護區它是建立全國的系統像美國就是海洋保護區的國家系統等於說全國一盤棋因為海洋保護區有非常多種海洋保護區只是一個總體的概念包括自然的、文化的或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3491.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3494.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
海保署組織法第5條特別提到海洋保育署的分屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3514.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3532.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我們未來分屬到底扮演什麼角色是不是也應該納入考慮所以海洋保育協會劃定在國外它是用提名的方式叫nomination process所以在先提名的時候等於是一種先期作業先期作業的時候公眾的參與就可以提前 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3532.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3549.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
規範規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3549.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3550.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
文化的部分我覺得也沒有非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3575.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3602.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
海洋基本法第10條特別提到了我們要尊重傳統的智慧這個部分跟原住民之間的關係傳統海域之間的關係是不是應該有更密切的一個結合最近也有很多漁民釣到大魚這些的種魚到底有沒有一些獎勵措施讓他把它放回去有沒有意義或者是程序上怎麼樣我們的海洋保育是不是更周延一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3603.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3620.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
第7點就是我們現在海洋富裕相關的條文裡面大概都提到說人工培植的部分特別是動物海洋植物的栽植講得非常模糊燃炭是非常重要的一個部分未來我們也要達成2050的淨零碳排 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3624.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3651.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
海洋保育法有沒有能夠把這個部分的概念納進去另外一方面我們也提到這個獎勵教育那教育的經費在哪裡所以我覺得這個還有很多的版本需要再做一個整合我在最後提一個這個案例就是私立保育法當時各方的意見不同但是有很多不同的版本的時候我們採取一個方式就是先建立這個跨黨派的一個整合小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3651.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3652.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
以上報告,謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3684.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3710.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
好謝謝我們邱文彥教授的發言因為我們今天海洋保育法是針對我們這個法要修訂所以我今天我特別邀請我們專家學者大家共同來提出建言那等一下我也要拜託各位我們專家學者因為時間上的關係大家盡量抓準8分鐘好那我們下一位我們叫邵廣昭教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3716.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3722.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
海保署的三個任務就是接近海洋、健康基地和永續資源接近海洋的部分海洋污染防治法修正條例已經在去年5月12日通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3743.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3744.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
《海洋保育法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3762.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3786.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
海豹署目前只有野生動物保育法可以依循但是保護的物種並不多所以實際上它的成效其實是很有限的海洋保護區才是最簡單、最積極、最有效的辦法所以這也是為什麼今天全世界都在努力倡導保護區的化射跟有效管理從40乘20到30乘30再到BBMJ乃至於去年通過的公海生物多樣性保護的條約所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3789.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3813.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
今天海豹署的三項願景,如果說其中有兩項都沒有原作用法的依據的話,我想這實在很難去施政。那麼再起來今天有四個提綱,就後面兩個提綱跟大家做一些簡單的報告。那麼提綱三是海豹法草案的機制設計,怎麼樣能夠兼顧到產業發展、漁業永續、原住民的權益跟海洋生態的保護。 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3814.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3841.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我認為說大家會有這樣的疑慮是很正常的事情這是因為大家不了解海洋保護區有什麼好處那第一個就是海洋保護區其實是可以協助漁村轉型藉著生態旅遊來永續利用的資源可以讓我們的觀光旅遊其他方式的收入來讓漁村能夠繼續的維持主要的理由是因為資源看一下不是能夠很永續越來越少的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3843.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3867.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我舉兩個例子,菲律賓的樹木,它的金沙的賞金,它可以讓當地貧窮的漁村翻轉第二個例子是夏威夷的恐龍灣,大家知道它一個海灣,它一天3000個遊客的限制,但是一年可以收入3億新台幣所以這個都是我們可以,台灣其實有比它更多的珊瑚礁漁類資源,原本現在是沒有那麼多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3869.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3882.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
海洋保護區可以有效的改善漁業資源枯竭的問題也就是說今天大家都以為說換了保護區讓漁民不能抓魚好像在滅魚 滅魚就三點水那個魚不讓漁民抓其實反過來講他是在護魚 保護魚 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3884.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3885.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
讓漁業可以長期永續利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3904.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3925.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
第三個是保護區才能夠完整的保護海洋生態跟生物多樣性因為棲地的保護才是最資本因為裡面的生物通常一起保護以後它食物鏈才能夠得到完整的保護而不是一個明星動物的保護結果它食物沒有了棲地壞掉了其實它也活不下來的所以我想一個資本一個治標這個原則還蠻清楚的再來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3930.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3930.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3949.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3974.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
藍炭的吃地能夠保護下來它其實有碳匯的功能後來最近這幾年科學家又發現魚其實它也有碳匯的功能因為魚的體內有10%到15%的碳的成分這些碳都透過食物鏈吃進它身體體內然後待死掉以後它會沉到海底變成碳沉到庫存就這樣子的作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3975.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3975.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
國際接軌通過昆明 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3991.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4006.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
文特洛生物專心框架前三個23個行動目標前三個都是跟保護區有關第一個是海洋空間規劃非常重要但是海洋空間規劃你要有資料所以你要先去調查瞭解哪些地區的海域應該做什麼樣的使用哪些地方是生物專心的熱點應該以保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4008.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4009.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
《海洋保育法》公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4026.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4051.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
最後最重要的就是保護區的這個跟OECM因為全世界都覺得事成二事做不到那麼今天30成30要三級跳為什麼因為來不及了要趕快把全世界海洋百分之三十能夠在2030年幾把它劃入海洋保護區的範圍當然傳統的話是海洋保護區還不夠所以他們要盤點認證評估這個OECM哪些事把它併進去一起算再來就是把公海的也劃入保護區的範圍所以這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4052.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4069.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
完全是國際上目前大家正在倡導的一些事情為什麼我們台灣海洋保育區不能跟國際接軌很簡單因為我們在算比例的時候就不一樣了我們這個不同部會有不同的見解約束認為他的限域措施就是海洋保育區算起來比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4069.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4096.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
更重要的是我們的分母人家是200海里 經濟海域我們是用了12海里所以這個分母小的當然比例就大了所以可以算出來比較高海報署主政之後他算的面積他把分子分母有稍微擴大一點但是分子還是有一些爭議但是分子他把一些認為是保護區的算下來有算到8.16%左右但是各位要看看國際上怎麼幫我們算的國際上幫我們算的他用分母是200海里 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4097.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4098.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4113.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4132.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
保護區面積比例大小其實不是那麼重要重要的是我們有沒有落實管理如果沒有落實管理那就變成像紙商官員我們今天講的其實沒有發揮它保護的效果所以我們就舉現在大家都熟知的兩個例子一個是小琉球它這個管理的並不是十分好遊客太多所以造成珊瑚礁的破壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4133.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4133.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
國際保護區網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4154.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4155.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
立法院第11屆第1會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4179.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4196.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
一做就是人工預交 它其實就有預交的效果今天如果我們可以follow人工預交的規定讓它1000公尺周邊都不要進去 用網距進去抓野的話那麼它就是一個保護區的效果所以它就可以變成非常標準的OECM讓台灣在這方面的推動可以成為全世界的典範 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4198.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4200.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
海洋保育的教育很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4227.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4249.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
政政跟國際接軌 我想這都需要有個國家需要有個主戰的機關最後我就用一張我去年11月到琉球去潛水的照片跟大家做結尾就是我下去看 我潛了4次 看到海底的景觀跟我自己個人40年多前在台灣離島潛水下去那樣漂亮的地方 那麼多個魚 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4250.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4252.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我希望他們以後有魚可以吃 有魚可以賞 也有魚可以來做研究以上報告 謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4276.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4276.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
專訓學者們 大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4291.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4317.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我首先講就是我非常尊重我也支持海洋保育但是我也必須提醒在場的公部門員原基法第21條我另一遍講得非常的清楚所以我們海保法事實上是現在正在要立法但是在立法的過程當中你們有沒有針對原住民族基本法第21條的精神來做一些立法之前的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4318.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4347.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
跟思考我提一下原基法第21條政府或者私人在原住民族土地或者是部落還有它的周邊一定範圍之內的公有土地或從事土地開發資源利用生態保育以及學術研究應該要諮詢並且要取得原住民族或部落的同意或參與原住民族可以分享相關利益也因此我們的國土法 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4347.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4349.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
在立法院審查的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4366.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4384.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
在107年的時候我們修正了原住民族基本法的第19條他新增了只要是我們公告海域的規定原民會必須要有公告海域的範圍但是到目前為止我請一下原民處的宋處長請問一下麻煩您走到台前來讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4388.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4409.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
專家學者們讓公部門尤其是海保法的主管機關清楚知道一下現在原住民族的海域已經有劃定公告了嗎各位委員報告目前還沒有劃定可是已經跟相關的部會有召開過這個共識的一個會議所以主席您聽到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4410.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4438.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
在原基法第19條裡面必須要劃定整個臺灣只要是涉及到原住民族的海域目前園民會正在規劃當中如果在這話當中還沒有公告我們的海保法就要到原住民族的地區並且並沒有做那麼多的公聽會我們的海保法的相關單位告訴我說你們有到幾個地方去開公聽會事實上我的理解跟了解你們只到蘭嶼跟都蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4441.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4456.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
整個台東、花蓮、屏東甚至於宜蘭都有援助民族的海域範圍今天來了我們新設部落的族人我詢問他們你們清楚知道我們的政府現在要制定海保法嗎他說什麼是海保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4457.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4483.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我又問了我南澳的族人你們了解有目前要定海保法嗎有來部落裡面跟大家徵詢嗎沒有什麼叫海保法所以我在這邊具體的建議我們的召委還有在場內政委員會的委員在沒有做充分的討論溝通交流跟到地方去了解什麼叫做海洋保育甚至於邱委員也好或者是剛剛的這個專家學者也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4486.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4507.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
我們都談到,全世界對於這個所謂的海洋保護,我們都非常理解,也支持。邱教授也該尊名義地說,其實我們原住民族有非常多的海洋知識、文化、智慧,甚至於現在還有非常多的族人,包括達烏族的飛魚記、阿美族的捕魚記、葛門蘭的海記, |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4509.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4509.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4538.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4539.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4554.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4555.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
海洋保育法草案公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4576.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4576.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4597.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4621.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
對地方並不了解所以我們希望在地方也要有一些地方縣市層級的審議會組織在你中央並沒有注意到的規範在地方上可以來作為我們地方上尤其是原住民族各族群的文化的延續跟文化的智慧最後我必須要提醒的是我的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4623.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4648.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
因為我知道朝委在禮拜四就要排定條文的審查了是不是不要那麼快速如果朝委你那麼快速的要逐條審查的話我相信第一沒有辦法把原住民族傳統的智慧海洋智慧把它放進去第二呢你們也並沒有依照原籍法到各個部落去開說明會而徵詢各個部落海洋文化的族人的同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4648.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4649.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4663.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4664.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
海峽管域分屬各不同的目的事業主管機關雖然我們現在把這個海域的這個圖資 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4683.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4684.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
所以 海保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4709.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4733.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
在制定現在我們要逐條討論之前有跟原民會做充分的討論你們原民會有提供充分的意見嗎當時我們也有招開我們也有共同招開共同來出席這個會議只是出席我們也有提供一些我們的意見那為什麼在現在海保法行政院出來的版本完全沒有原住民的思維 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4734.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4757.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
其實他在總說明裡面的確有提到他只有講尊重兩個字可是在條文裡面並沒有啊所以召委本席也是內政委員會的召委真的誠心的建議您禮拜四不要逐條的討論否則的話我想我們也會行政程序來這個來做一些交流然後甚至於不惜表決動員我們都不應該那麼這麼儘快這麼草率的就逐條討論以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4765.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4788.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好 謝謝我們高津召委的提議那個我們園民會我們的處長我們的宋處長其實剛才我在上面聽真的你要跟我們高津召委來做溝通你原住民的文化你原住民的知情委員你這應該都要把是不是跟召委這邊再聯繫一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4790.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4812.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
因為我們修這個法是要越修越好並不是說有反對的意見我們都要排除那不然我們今天就不用開這個公聽會了所以其實我當召委我還是要說大家都能夠接受我們是要把這個法修了讓原住民的保障讓移民的保障不然我今天也不用請議會來阿對不對好 謝謝沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4820.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4820.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4850.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4867.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
主席各位先進我們海洋保育法在3月12號第一次在立法院做報告今天3月25號我們召開不對外開放參加的公聽會剛剛我們聽到高金委員說在3月28號馬上就要排定主條審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4868.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4898.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那這個海保法舉著環保保育大曲風行草原用超音速的速度要來做立法我記得在3月12號在開會的時候立法院開會的時候有委員在質詢我們的海委會說2019年海洋基本法通過之後那為什麼現在這個法現在才提出來那時候管主委有說明說因為沒有共識沒有共識就是表示還有爭議那為什麼要立一個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4899.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4907.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
不徵詢大家的意見 形成公示之後才來提出呢那所以說現在政府跟立法院都是這樣在立法的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4907.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4935.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
去年年底這個海委會有邀集各漁會總幹事來做座談那在會中各總幹事都有特別提出很多海洋以及漁業的各方面的一個問題同時也特別表示總幹事是CEO重點是在這個法必須要到各漁會跟最了解海洋跟漁業的漁民來做一個溝通說明取得認同結果我們等到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4936.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4962.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
沒有下文等到的是總統大選之後那火速的要在立法院裡面要來立法通過那事實上一個好的政策一個福國利民的一個法案事實上是要大力宣導而且是唯恐人民都不知道但是我們這個法很奇怪剛好這個反其道而行因為沒有共識所以說在大選之前宴席旗鼓 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4963.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4987.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
大選之後家族馬力火速要通過在之前我聽說有團體在開記者會的時候特別提到希望在4月22號之前要通過海保法來紀念世界地球日我要跟大家報告立一個法牽涉到人民的一個權利是何等的嚴肅跟慎重的一個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4988.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5011.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
不是像在跑業務作業機的一樣尤其不可以拿犧牲漁民的生計跟權益來當作紀念我不曉得這一次的倉促立法到底是要對誰交代意義何在剛剛在報告的時候已經有講到說各部位現在在漁民作業的海域裡面已經有立了畫了69個保護區 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5014.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5041.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
這裏面除了保護區之外事實上還有另外的像我們交通部的這個行業法、商港法還有經濟部的礦業法還有國防部的要塞地掉的保育法全部都是不在這個範圍裏面這些都是限制到我們整個漁民作業的一個權利本來社會各界都很期待海委會的一個成立事實上是希望說能夠來重力統合我們海域的一個利用跟管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5042.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5065.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
結果現在海委會的做法是這個保持現狀不變的情形之下要另立新法而且要規劃新的一個禁限制海域那禁止移民的一個在海上採捕跟活動那另外我們其他各個部會我們在海上圈海自重的這些亂象誰來管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5067.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5083.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
所以說好像把海洋資源目前匱乏的一個情形都規則在漁民身上我跟大家報告沒有人比漁民更在乎更希望我們海洋資源的一個多樣性希望海洋資源更豐富 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5084.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5106.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
所以說 像這一段期間 漁民真的是做了非常多的事情像現在 漁民海上作業已經禁止有傷害性的一具漁法在海上我們的網聚類也必須要做實名制的溯源的標示同時為了要配合海上資源的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5107.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5108.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
海洋保育法草案 公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5124.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5151.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
包括像競爭漁業管理辦法包括像巡洩管理辦法包括在不同的海域不同的魚種我們有這個相關的一個休餘的這樣一個規定漁民事實上是做了非常多就像剛剛我們那個邵老師邵教授講的我們的琉球區域是由琉球漁會漁民主動發起之後來做保育現在資源非常豐富這個都是溝通來的不是一下子說訂了之後就做那這些漁民怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5152.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5180.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以說漁民的一個溝通跟支持是非常重要的反觀現在我們的這個三階四階的這個藻礁的一個破壞包括說我們為了能源政策離岸風場的一個開發接下來中游要在觀音到我們高雄永安的這個第二條天然氣管線的一個埋設包括現在從新竹台中還有台南我們海水淡量場的一個設置尤其在台南 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5181.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5196.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
暗上已經有太陽能光電暗邊又要有一天處理50萬噸海水的海水氮化廠這個對海洋生態資源的保育是非常嚴重的一個影響誰在管理誰在負責誰在縱容誰在包庇 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5199.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5213.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
真的是沒有人在負責我是覺得說有太多太多像這樣的一個事情包括說這一段期間這幾年北海岸西部海岸到南部破特產的一個亂象 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5215.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5236.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
現在已經擴增到我們的這個離島去了上個禮拜這個金門的釣客的一個屍聯漂流到大陸去之後到現在還有一位都還被扣留我跟大家報告他們去的搭的是什麼?就是波特船波特船就是標準的三、五船沒有船名、沒有船級、沒有船級港 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5237.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5263.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們漁民出海作業 漁船是要經過檢查要合格的證照漁民的部分的話是經過訓練合格是要有船名證才能出港作業出港的時候是要海巡登記 回來是要現已聲明你看看做了多少東西 結果我們的破壞船是任何的來岸隨便出去就出去而且最重要的是非常危險 因為它又有動力 又很容易就漂流 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5264.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5293.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那事實上到處都有很多的這種需要緊急救援救助或是已經有好幾項的一個這個不幸的視線了沒有人管也沒有人願意管我是覺得這個是很離譜還有各位如果說有空的話到現在的高雄北海岸北高雄地區的海邊去看看到處停了這種大型的這個後輪本來還以為說現在台灣經濟發展非常的繁榮所以說高雄港、西港都溢出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5294.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5316.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
結果不是是這些外籍的貨輪他為了要逃避高雄港博區的一個收費的這個部分跑到漁民作業的海域裡面來做停泊跟漁民的糾紛已經發生好幾起的一個碰撞事件沒有人管大家都忽視那所有這些東西跟漁民相關的權益跟生命財產的部分誰在管 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5317.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5323.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這誰要負責另外時間的問題我想有幾點我要做一個聲明就是說第一點請尊重漁民在台灣海域從來之使用的這個合法的捕魚的權益這個還包含這個我們漁業法裡面有做規範如果有任何的影響必須做輔導跟補償 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5340.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5357.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
第二點這個海保法裡面的這個審議會的一個委員必須要有二分之一的這個漁民代表來參加必須在座讓最了解這個海洋跟漁業的這個漁民在公平公正公開透明的情形之下來參與意見第三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5361.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5378.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
海保法這一部海保法就像是一張空白支票現在的這個庇護區要發射在哪裡庇護區裡面的核心區緩衝區到底有多少面積要保育什麼物種完全都沒有提到那漁民真的是非常弱勢也非常的軟 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5379.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5400.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我們蔡總統曾經講說現在這個政府是最會溝通的一個政府我希望不要造成沒有說明造成漁民的一個恐慌所以說最基本的一個要求必須要到各區議會去跟漁民來做一個溝通說明我們是可以接受如果必要的時候我們願意共同來做一個環保保育讓生態資源永續 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5404.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5407.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我們剛剛邱文念、邱教授講的過去的私地法、海保法事實上包括說我們過去周焱香教授所推動的白海豚的一個重要棲息地的一個保護剛開始事實上跟移民都是很大的一個衝突但是經過資源的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5422.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5443.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
各方面的數據的一個說明而且不願其反的就像白海豚的這個保護區到各區議會最少都辦兩場以上最後現在漁民事實上都是白海豚保育的一個志工漁民現在在海上看到白海豚都會回報的所以說為什麼好的一個政策跟方向為什麼不好好溝通之後共同來做呢再來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5444.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5469.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
過去的這些法規所訂的這些保護區事實上在過去保育裡面已經有提供了很多的一個貢獻如果有不足事實上現階段是可以做一個修正之後可以持續來做推動的不急於在現在一定要訂立海保法最後一點就是保育如果只是做限制跟禁止而沒有做輔導的一個措施這個是最不負責任的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5470.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5496.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我們不需要悲情我們業界也不希望是用抗爭的方式但是最卑微的最基本的一定要說明一定要形成共識之後共同來推動所以在這裡我要特別要請我們主席還有各位委員各位先進多多關心台灣的漁民多多關心支持台灣的漁業謝謝大家 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5500.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5501.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
海洋委員會副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5528.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5555.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
好謝謝主席還有張委員黃委員在這邊那謝謝各位海洋界的先進們大家都在這邊討論那我首先我還是要肯定海委會以及海保署在推動這個海洋保育法立法的過程裡面他所付出的心力跟努力那當然還是有努力的空間那我以我以這個作為一個長期關注漁業發展的我來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5556.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5582.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那在環保意識高漲的今日來講的話那我就會覺得對於這個相對弱勢的漁業來講漁業界真的常常遭受到非常不公平的這個指責了那我們就以海保法第5條來講其實裡面已經有記載了很多的部會在過去已經陸陸續續畫了不同等級跟規模的海洋保護區那 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5585.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5605.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
回顧過去來講話這些保護區的時候那漁民往往都是只有事後得知無奈的接受那使得他們的作業與搶救越來越緊縮除此之外呢我想大家都知道隨著全球的暖化海洋污染的擴大還有很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5606.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5630.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
海岸跟海域工程等等的基地的破壞這些不利於海洋漁業資源開發的內外在因素的衝擊之下那我想臺灣的漁民他們的收益跟權益其實已經受到嚴重的衝擊可是不可諱言的我們的一般的媒體跟大眾其實大家關心的並不是漁民的生計而是我們的海洋生態 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5632.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5650.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
對於漁民權益受損,事實上我也蠻感嘆的,並沒有受到太多關愛的眼神,但是指責可能比關愛更多。這是我對我自己長期在漁業裡面所看到的,因為漁業育我養我。 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5652.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5666.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我必須幫議員說一些我心裡面的感觸那我當然我也不反對海洋保育法立法但是台灣是美麗婆所指導我們擁有多樣化的海洋生物 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5667.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5668.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
海洋保育法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5686.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5697.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
很容易在生物多樣性或者棲地保育的訴求之下把移民傳統的作業宜場又化為庇護區 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5699.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5726.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那這樣子一定又讓目前的漁民的生氣雪上加霜這是我的感受那當然其實剛剛前面有幾位包括薩老師邱老師等等都有講國外有一些化保護區的時候我講最簡單的就是他們認為都會有一些職業資源外溢的效果最後都會對漁業有幫助那我也不否認這一點但是我們要考慮的一點就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5728.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5748.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
畫色保育區 或者是核心區等等它不是馬上立竿見影就會有漁業資源外溢的效果這些都還需要有非常長的時間 更重要的是要有相關的作為跟措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5751.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5774.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
在這個保護區劃設還沒有達到幫助移民外溢效果他必須要去檢縮他坐於里長宮間影響他們的生計跟權益的時候那這時候我們畫這個法是不是有一些在他們過渡時期的時候一些相關的作為來保障保障移民的生計 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5776.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5790.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
另外還有一個很重要的就是因為這個就牽扯到後面的法則的部分那我想海域空間不是像陸地一樣因為海域空間是一個大海茫茫你沒辦法像陸地一樣去畫設說這個是皇室你不能進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5791.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5791.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
大海茫茫 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5816.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5829.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
所以我覺得在這個部分裡面如果我們在設核心區的時候我們應該要有一個作為一個有為負責任的政府來講我們應該要有一個警示的作用紅綠燈中間還會有一個黃燈 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5832.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5832.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
總而言之 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5855.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5883.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我希望海洋保育法的立法是真正能夠讓使用海洋的相關權益人都能夠獲利真正達到人與海洋共存共榮的目標所以在這個之前我還是希望能夠再跟漁民多多的宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5885.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5886.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
謝謝我們廖正信我們的院長的見言 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5905.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5906.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
張柱仁委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5927.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5944.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
主席好各位委員各位專家學者各位教授大家早安大家好今天本期非常開心來參加我們內政委員會我們所召開的我們海洋保育法草案的公聽會那我想首先要跟大家報告的是說我們中華民國大家都知道我們是四面環海的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5945.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5946.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
海洋保育法草案公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5962.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5984.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那首先我還是要感謝我們海委會以及同仁對這個海洋保育法推動的比喻與利可是我想這次很多有關於部門間部會溝通的一個很重要的溝通的方式一定要好好來溝通本席不希望有這些部門的本位主義的一些產生了跨部會討論這些的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5986.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6003.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那所以我覺得今天的重點就是一個就是政府對海洋保育問題的重視的程度以及海洋保育的決心到底有多大所以今天我可以分為三個核心問題來跟大家報告第一個大家剛剛我們高精素美委員講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6003.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6025.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
原住民的權益保障問題 第二個我們林昌明總幹事討論的各地黎民的生計問題以及本期最重視的產業發展的公益平衡問題尤其我覺得我們產業發展是對我們海洋保育危害現在最嚴重的問題之一首先剛剛講的原住民的權益保障問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6026.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6027.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
原住民傳統委員會持續努力推動原住民基本法保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6052.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6053.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
立法院第11屆第1會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6074.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6101.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
推動跟試行的過程中應該要跟我們的原住民跟部落妥善的溝通確保祭典跟文化的舉辦以及文化傳承是非常重要的那漁民的部分剛剛林昌明總幹事有特別講到我們的漁業漁民們其實長期以來不管在一些漁業方式都有做一些精進以及一直長期需要是生態保育的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6102.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6120.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我們都有積極的去做可是我覺得政府從過去的經驗來講好像協助的不多2019年之前我們台灣的漁業才剛從黃台被除名可是隨即招歐盟的執委會因為我國執法的問題被留校查看 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6121.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6148.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
以及美國營養人權的問題將我國的遠洋漁業列入同工及強迫勞動品清單中所以我要跟大家拜託的是說當我們的漁民非常的積極在擺脫這樣的標籤的時候我覺得農業部跟漁業署要在一般跟國際連接的溝通上要加強以及我們的海洋保育法實施之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6149.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6166.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
要讓漁民如何在新的法令推動的時候做一個銜接不要讓漁民的權益在海洋保育的工作上產生對立或分歧的問題那最後我要特別強調的就是產業發展的公益橫貧的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6171.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6172.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
海洋保育的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6187.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6194.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
中油三接工程破壞珍貴藻礁台電和諧電廠四接工程破壞基隆珊瑚生態影響漁民生計離岸封建設置苗栗跟彰化 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6209.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6209.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
立法院第11會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6224.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6224.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
立法院第11會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6248.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6249.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6269.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6269.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
謝謝我們上次委員的建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6296.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6299.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
下一位我們請我們張毅教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6318.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6344.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家好那我今天針對兩個議題提供個人的看法那第一個是提到說這個海委會的角色是不是有辦法可以把其他主管機關的海洋保護區一起來統整來管理但是這個為了要達到事權統一的這個目的實際上在執行上會很困難因為在現行的保護區的法規裡面包含至少7項那這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6346.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6347.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
國際公園法第8條有5種分區,但針對海域分區沒有分級管制條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6367.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6368.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
海洋保育法草案公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6386.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6414.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這部分他應該就可以達到說把其他法規上面的保護區的執行納入管理比如說目前針對整個保護區裡面有做5年通盤檢討計畫的規定只有國家公園法跟私立保育法有提到那像漁業法跟其他的法規並沒有提到現有的保護區可以做到通盤檢討所以保護區劃完之後我們並沒有了解它的成效是不是有用所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6415.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6444.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
應該是在針對海保法草案裡面提到的這個整體海洋保護區管理政策方針的規劃裡面那我個人是建議應該要把海洋保護區的管理成效評估跟輔導計畫納入到政策方針的規劃項目裡面就像這個海保署在過去兩年也曾經執行過這個全台灣46個保護區的成效評估那這個評估的過程裡面他也把所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6444.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6445.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
立法院第11屆第2會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6464.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6492.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
各界來檢視到底所有的海洋保護區劃完了之後到底有沒有用所以他可以識別整個海洋保護區管理上的缺點而且透過利害關係人的參與可以再去修訂保護區的管理計畫甚至是管理措施他可以再調整所以在這樣有共識的情況下我們才有辦法真的去落實海洋保護區的成效的監督這也回歸到常常有人說這個保護區劃完之後都是paper park的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6494.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6519.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
第二點是海洋保護區在劃定的過程裡面一定要納入外界的意見剛剛幾位委員專家都有特別提到雖然政院版有提到說第7條需要有專家學者代表人數徐委員也特別提到需要有漁會的參與甚至提到漁業從業人員如果有受到損失應該給予補償蘇委員也特別提到要有原民的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6520.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6547.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
還有楊委員提到說要有利害關係團體陳述機會我想這些原則都是大家都有共同的共識就是明定利害關係人參與海洋保護區的劃設過程形成一個由下而上的參與的管理制度設計我想這個目標大家都有共識但是針對人員的比例或者是到底是要不要明定其他參與人的類別這些應該是可以在實行細則的時候再來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6553.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6579.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我舉一個例子海洋保護區的話是第一個應該要考量漁民的生計而不是在追求面積要多大因為我們一直被30乘30的框架限制住了我舉一個例子在墨西哥有一個2.8乘2.8公里的一個很小範圍的保護區但它保護的成效不錯我們回過頭來看基隆基隆的潮境公園只有15公頃15公頃好好做它也會保育得很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6580.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6599.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
保護區一直在追求他的面積最大的話實際上影響的是漁民的生計而且不確定可以達到他的保育效果那我再舉另外一個案子就是在彰化他有一個蘿菇蝦保護區這個蘿菇蝦保護區一開始就是由彰化的區漁會跟漁民一起共同發展出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6600.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6621.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
他們在推動的過程也自主來做一個巡守所以他們投入非常多的產銷班的班員來做巡護甚至也去帶動當地一些生態旅遊的事情還有環境教育的投入所以我想我們在這個化保護區的過程區議會的投入也是非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6622.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6643.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我最後用一個日本叉牙魚保育的成效來做一個結尾過去日本的叉牙魚在1970年代有超過3萬噸的漁獲量但最後他抓下來一年不到70噸後來就是1992年漁會發起一個自主管理他要用完全禁漁的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6644.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6656.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
執行之後,確實魚回來了,然後最後在1995年開始採用這個總可捕量的設計,一直延續到現在。我最後用一個短片請大家觀賞一下它的狀況。這段視頻顯示了以前的情況,當海洋周圍的海洋仍然充滿魚。海洋周圍的大海洋每年在新年日前, |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6676.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6677.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
海洋保育法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6702.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6703.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
海洋保育法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6723.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6724.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6755.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6757.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
海洋保育法草案公聽委員：完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6782.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6783.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
海洋保育法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6807.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6827.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
最後在3年的禁漁之後我們看一下他的禁漁的結果魚的資源真的有回來所以我要強調的是在保護區的設計過程一定要有漁民、原住民還有利害關係人的參與設計這個才會成功如果只是單純由上而下的畫色這不會有效果的以上是我的報告,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6831.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6831.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6854.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6872.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
首先謝謝主席 讓我們有機會在這裏報大家意見想到海保法的一個設立 其實它立法的美譽是非常的好但是有一個讓我覺得好像是以美譽來做內語的一個政策的一個開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6872.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6885.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
為什麼讓漁民有這個疑慮最重要你可以跟總幹事甚至我們的管處委在全省各地跟我們總幹事座談為何不敢全省的漁民各區漁會跟漁民座談 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6887.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6913.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
如果你認為這是一個法的一個立法的一個美意為什麼不敢這樣來做一個全省的一個做一個溝通再者我跟各位報告一下我們漁業署有成立了一個69處保護區在保護區到現在目前為止我們漁民都是以自主性的管理自主性的管理他特別提到大家有感覺嗎叫保護區像我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6915.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6915.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6927.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6927.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6952.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6953.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6979.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6999.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
最重要暫緩之中讓我們的立法的一個過程裡面更公開更好更讓我們的永續經營讓永續的生存更其重要憲法裡面規定生存生存前以及任何一個法令更其重要我們現在在生存前的被萎縮之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7000.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7011.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我們相信我們的人民 到現在都不曉得海保法是為什麽而立法的好在這 我很希望我們的高層市民我們的原住民有一個這麼好的立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7012.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7033.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
我們每一次我們的延伸地的生活權的移民就是在地方上生存了將近100年但是我們海保法裡面有沒有針對我們的延伸住民的一個權利來作為委員的一個重要性的一個預計我們有21個二分之一的委員制、審議委員請問是哪一個團體、哪一個委員可以參與這個內地法案的一個表決權 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7041.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7042.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
立法院第11屆第2會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7066.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7066.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7084.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7086.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7106.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7106.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
海洋保育法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7124.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7125.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7146.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7175.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
希望我們大家學在這裡齁 剛才廖院長特別提過 移民是一個弱勢團體為什麼它是弱勢 它從開始 美名都不是它 現在只有影響到海洋資源或是現在破壞海洋資源 都是移民在做但是我告訴各位學者 現在包括我們的移業署訂定的法規之中我們的移民很多都是自主性提出來的法規 自主性的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7176.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7203.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我們也知道海洋資源來自海洋但是生存也是很重要的一環兩極要如何並存我們移民非常注重我希望暫緩來再來暫緩發布我們這個保育法海洋保育法希望我們台灣前神聆聽一個說明會希望族區的在一位族區來做一個說明再者各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7205.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7233.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
寫者跟我們立法委員在這跟各位報告一下移民絕對支持我們國際法的一個接軌就像我們遠洋三法在這之前的時候我們為了要跟國際表示我們台灣的移民是根據國際的法規上面在做一個生存或是生存的一個營運但是我請問一下我們有沒有尊崇有但是他的配套措施有沒有做出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7234.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7243.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
最重要的比例原則,留意在這裡報告一下,一台竹篠發季的時候,繁花的時候,這台竹篠價值三百萬,但是這台竹篠被發的時候,發了差不多六百幾萬,這個有沒有比例原則?再者,以這20個鐵柵,鐵柵來血雨而已,但是結果呢,還是被罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7258.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7269.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這個是國際法規的一個因素存在但是我們有沒有承認?我們還是承認做錯事有沒有背法?我們還是背法但是在立法之前的時候要讓移民有知的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7271.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7299.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
要讓移民有知的權利不要讓這個法規之後讓我們的議會甚至我們的立法委員在這邊讓人家成為被罵的一個知名所以我希望立法要落實立法要讓移民有參與最重要不管未來這個法通過絕對要讓移民跟原住民的人絕對要有參與其中表達意見甚至有決定的權利謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7304.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7304.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
謝謝陳春生總幹事 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7311.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7337.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我跟總幹事報告齁其實齁我們是要聽聽各位的意見有沒有異色立場因為這個法修下去是要越修越好阿所以齁有意見讓他提出來阿其實我今天才知道因為我們審查委員議會也沒有代表原住民也沒有代表所以這一點我們海委會一定要要去檢討好那我們下一位請 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7339.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7349.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
劉行廷劉行廷劉行廷委員不在好那我們請沃沁賢教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7359.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7379.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
主席、各位學術專家、大家早根據IUCN的報告指出保護區對維護海洋生物多樣性跟廣大的社會目標非常重要但是近年來它的數量跟它的面積也不斷的擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7381.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7394.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
不過管理的水準並沒有得到相應的提高所以說怎麼樣去做好管理這個變成是一個主要的問題所在 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7395.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7413.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
所以IUCN之後就出版一系列的保護區的最佳實踐指南的重書所以我這邊是建議說相關單位應該好好去看這套書裡面的他教你怎麼做全世界目前為止碰到的問題那是怎麼去處理這個都有寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7417.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7430.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
另外因應昆明蒙特樓全球生物多樣性框架要求到2030年至少30%的海洋的區域要化為海洋保護區 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7432.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7452.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
對於那些這個生態系退化的區域得到有效恢復這是一個它的目的在於增強生物多樣性還有一個就是剛剛大家一直在強調的就是說你不是光為了化而化就是化了之後呢它其實可以增強它的生態系功能跟服務就是說這個產業會越來越強 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7454.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7455.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
公告各類型的海洋保護區 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7482.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7482.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
海洋保育法 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7500.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7524.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
是要去做的,沒有錯目前提出來這個草案,我看到了有幾個問題第一個就是說,由第5條它對於既有的類型及第6條第4項我們可以知道現有的用海的機關,它在利用海洋資源時它其實都已經善盡管理之責,就是利用跟管理它都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7525.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7530.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
所以說應該保育的人他已經早已公告而且行之有年經驗豐富 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7533.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7555.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
問題在於就是我剛剛提到的他只要在落實管理方面在加強的話海委會他現在要另創的這個海洋庇護區他其實他能夠琢磨的地方其實不多不過剛剛也提到一個所以重點會在於就是說根據這個海洋保育法的這些執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7556.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7578.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
定出來的這些各項基準之後的,剛剛很多花言都提到,就是跨部會的溝通協調工作,這個會變成很重要,因為定出來這個標準,其他部會他現在是沒有這些作為,或是這個程度上面差很多,那他要符合你的標準,達到這個一致性,你的整個管理成效才會提高。 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7581.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7603.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
第3條所提到的核心區、反中區及永續利用區在第9、第10、第11條的分區及其限制不明確好像看起來反中區只要有席格是可以補儀的 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7605.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7627.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
只有核心其實不行那永續利用期顧名思義應該也可以補儀喔但是這個在條文沒有寫得很清楚反而在說明講了一大堆所以我的看法跟剛剛那個邱教授的看法一樣就是說你那個條文寫起來怪怪的看不懂好像是在反中期呢就也是不能補儀的但是事實上好像不是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7629.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7645.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
再過來就是說我剛才提到一個就是說防法未來的配套措施總共有9項總共有9項那這個一般來講民主國家你在提出這個草案的時候你配套措施其實就以前我在日本念書的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7645.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7650.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
他們會是一事到位他其實已經會附給你這個參考資料當作這些就是配套都是這些執法那你了解說整個我確實還有我今天要推行這一套海洋保育法的話我都準備好了就等你這個母法通過我執法很快就會全部出來所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7672.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7695.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
這樣做出來的話,整體未來對於用海機關的落實MPA的管理會產生激勵作用就是你建築一些新的標準出來,那現在很多已經有的這些MPA的單位他會根據你這個基準這個標準,他要去做調整,包括最困難的那個政策方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7696.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7722.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我譬如說農業部我做這些的MPA我會配合這些的政策方案裡面要求的這些指標那我全部要寫一份出來提送這個送銷這個或是跟台委會來一併來溝通協商所以說對於這個其他部會的在MPA的加強管理上面會產生激勵作用他不能再放著不去動他了那再過來一個就是我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7724.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7747.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
第9條第10條第11條中的海洋保護區應該改為海洋保護區因為你剛剛在第5條已經把各部會現在已經在用的這些海洋保護區他們未來應該也可以去根據相關的這些資料去發射應該是核心區還是反送區還是這個永續利用區 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7751.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7776.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
但是你這樣寫的話只有你自己定的這個海洋保護區可以去劃這個但事實上現在很多縣市的水產動物保護區他有去自己去劃這個核心區目前看到大概兩三個比如說東澳依然東澳跟這個剛剛講的當外的蘿菇蝦他們有核心區但是核心區之外的什麼是反動區什麼是這個永續利用區他就沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7776.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7777.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
海洋保護區 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7807.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7816.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
他就有依據了其實就業觀點的話我們業部門很早以前就有保育了比如說民國59年就有這個化電保護區域的這個規定了一直到80年1月 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7822.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7825.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
海洋保育區對我們一頁的管理來講的話它其實就是進一區進一區所以這個都很完善所以以上我簡單報告到這裡 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7848.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7848.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
歐慶賢議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7869.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7889.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
主席各位委員大家早我是議會的總幹事我想說在這邊我先正式一下就是說議會跟移民都是非常重視保育政策的尤其是海保法但是我們認為這個海保法是有點倉促因為我們反觀這個海委會在107年4月28號成立以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7891.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7892.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
海保署 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7908.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7933.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
在這兩年期間裡面從苗栗到雲林從龍鳳港以北到這個外山町州的以南這個區域7萬9千3百公頃裡面他至少到鎖匣的各區議會去溝通跟移民溝通跟議會協調至少每個議會都有4場以上所以當初大家在這個議會跟海保協調大家產生兩個共識第一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7934.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7954.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
委員會的移民在這個重要區域裡面得以一躍就是可以從來之現況使用第二是將來這個區域地如果需要擴大或者是管理強度要增加的時候必須讓當地的移會跟移民認同所以大家都同意這個做決定發設的那麼移會我說會長做事環保的原因是因為移會自己花了兩三百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7961.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7976.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
培養了軍團觀察委員20幾位我們配合了離岸風電的建制跟海保署的這個白海豚的監測可見我可以告訴各位我們不是反對這個法是這個法案太倉促我們看這個法案30條 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7978.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7979.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
海洋保育法草案公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8006.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8025.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
不足的補充我們想說目前按照這個書面資料看起來台灣12海里裡面有化射的保護器大概8.28%那一直要到2030年的30%這裡面所損失移民的作業區有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8026.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8026.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8045.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8046.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
立法院第11會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8064.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8086.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我們想說建立在這個法令的第13條就是對現有的亂象臺灣沿岸周邊都有一個亂象就是波特船的橫行他坐向颱風天的時候我們的登山客依然要到山上去登山然後再來動用國家資源來救他 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8088.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8113.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
這個波特船本身自己沒有承擔風險能力一旦碰到了大風浪或者是天氣變化的時候他必須動員國家的力量去救援他再來在航行安全方面他跟正常航行船隻他是沒有任何辨識的能力他是會產生海事糾紛的然後他 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8115.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8137.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
主海作業他根本不理會我們所有各主管機關所劃設的保育機更何況將來的海洋保育法他根本無視海洋保育法的存在所以他是沒政府的所以之所以來管這個一項之細這個一項之細呢所以我覺得說對這個波特船應該在法令的第13條裡面嚴格禁止 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8138.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8139.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
許以珍委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8169.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8186.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
主席還有我們各部會官員還有各位在場的專家學者以及各位總幹事大家早今天很感謝大家撥容到場陳述對海保法的立法的一個看法那今天我也要談一下我對海洋保育法 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8186.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8187.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
立法的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8208.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8236.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
海洋管理雖然沒有海洋保育專法但是我們有其他的法規在做海洋保護比如說有野生動物保育法、國家公園法、濕地保育法、國土地化法、都市計畫法、海岸管理法、漁業法、水下文化資產的保存法、發展公共條例等對海洋利用進行規範各權責機關也依其主管的法規劃設不同類型的海洋保護區 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8237.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8265.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
各有各種不同保護的標的當然管理的目的跟保護的方式現行的運作並沒有太多的阻礙因此本席認為海委會應該先到全國各地辦理海洋保育法立法的公聽會多方的聽取地方的政府、漁會、漁民、原住民的意見將地方公聽會的意見彙整完之後提供給立法委員來參考以立後續的立法工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8267.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8281.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
行政院版的海保法第8條到第12條規定要劃設海洋庇護區其中有永續利用區、緩衝區、核心區此法的授權機關可以劃設海洋庇護區,但是要怎麼劃設? |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8283.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8309.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
法社的範圍有多大?要怎麼界定永續利用區裡面的緩衝區、核心區跟這個永續利用區本法都沒有講清楚只能從後續的執法跟施行規則去定定但是本法通過之後海委會拿到這張空白授權之後我們立法院就會失去直接監督的權利而本法第7條規定中央主管機關為了辦理法社海洋庇護區的業務應涉審議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8312.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8337.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
要由專家學者、民間團體及有關的機關代表組成那為了維護漁民的權益本席另有提案要求審議會的成員、專家學者、漁會、漁民代表的人數不得少於三分之二讓第一線的海洋利用者的聲音可以被聽見而未來海保法施行之後海洋庇護處被劃設完成勢必也會限制某些捕撈的活動這一個轉變可能會導致漁業 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8340.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8340.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
漁業法規 農業部主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8356.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8366.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
海洋產業發展條例歸海委會主管未來在這兩個法上能夠提供何種有力措施保障漁民保障漁會的權益這兩個問題主管機關應該到全台的漁業各地跟受影響者說明清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8372.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8397.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
而海保法的草案只規範沒有協助的方案對漁民相當的不利若違法在本法中制定補償的措施就應該在其他法規中修訂總不能要漁民自己找出路海洋保育要做但是漁民的生計權益也要顧行政本委體海洋海委會跟農業部應該提出具體的措施保障漁民的權益目前海保法第23條 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8399.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8399.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8416.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8416.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8441.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8463.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
所以我認為,非故意且無重大違規情勢,經勸導使離核心區者,不予處罰那為了有永續的海洋資源可以利用,海洋保育與漁業管理需要大量的時間跟資源來建立及維持所以在保育及資源管理上,畫設海洋區是相對簡單而有效的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8463.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8464.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8490.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8492.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8509.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8536.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這兩三是說六四六四六四六四六四五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8537.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8554.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
市長你要多少分?不是 委員來來來 不是不是 有一種情形是這樣啦因為你現在委員是兩個你如果要10倍給我你如果要10倍給我多少?還是你要同櫃流?我10倍好你10倍齁?你10倍 好你李平春譬如說兩個委員之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8567.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8568.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8589.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8590.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
立法院第11屆第2會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8607.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8608.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8634.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8634.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8657.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8658.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
立法院第11屆第2會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8674.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8675.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8699.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8700.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8722.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8723.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8740.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8742.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
立法院第11屆第1會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8873.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8875.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
海洋法徵系副教授鍾慧仙副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8900.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8926.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
主席好還有各位委員好那我今天就是做海洋保育法草案我從2019年開始陸陸續續參與到現在然後在這觀察還有現在本來的觀察給大家一些想法那第一個的話是海洋保育法草案如果它通過之後實際上它其實可以補足我們現在海洋資源有關法規的缺口所以缺口意思是說現在跟海洋資源有關的法規不論是國家公務員法或是文化政策保存法 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8926.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8953.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
這些或是漁業法他們其實管理的標的都沒有任何一個法是以生態系統為管理標的而我們現在海保法草案如果它通過的話它其實可以彌補第一個是以海洋生態生態系統為基礎的的一個管理工具第二個的話它實際上是可以帶來一個以保育為目的的管理法因為我們現在的法規主要都是以永續利用為主要的管理的標的和未來的方向這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8955.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8965.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
但是這樣的法的設計它實際上也帶來相對應的缺點也就是剛剛所有委員所提到的它到底如何去在永續還有在經濟發展上面獲得一個平衡或者是說它如何去調節現有主管機關之間的協調的機制是現在海洋保育法所可能在未來執行之後會面臨到的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8976.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8980.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
國際組織所謂的海洋保護區的定義是有一些差距但是這法通過之後它其實可以加強我國在做海洋保育上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9006.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9007.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
海洋保育法草案提出海域空間規劃概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9031.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9032.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
立法院第11屆第1會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9051.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9073.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
從這角度來看我們所需要的海洋保育法它可能只是一個提醒或是一個敲門磚吧就讓我們現在的法規以永續發展永續利用為目標的法規可以逐漸的朝向所謂的永續保育的方向走那再來最後一點是剛剛有非常多委員所提到是關於公民參與或是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9075 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9077.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
主要是在審議會的組成現在的審議會只有列在中央主管機關裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9092.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9117.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
審議會的組成他現在所列的是團體或者是利害關係人他們都有可能可以代表那至於代表是否要列為當然成員特定的代表譬如說漁會或是在文化地方的原住民組或是特定的使用者們是否要列為當然成員代表我覺得這是值得討論的也就是說到底要用母法直接明白條列哪些人是可以作為代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9117.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9119.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
國際社會、甚至在很多先進國家這麼被推崇是因為它可以帶來的所謂的平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9142.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9165.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
平衡要怎麼平衡那它就是跟執行有關跟如何落實有關還有跟它的管理規定管理規劃的設計是有關聯的那現在海洋保育法草案裡所提到的庇護區的設計是需要去跟相關的主管機關會同協商然後同時也召開公聽會所以其實關鍵都落在於如何落實現在法規設計有 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9166.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9166.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
保護區設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9187.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9188.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
以上發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9213.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9219.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
謝謝周慧欣副教授接下來我們請台灣海洋大學海生所特聘教授黃匠修 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9228.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9242.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
主席、各位委員、還有各位機關代表以及各位先進大家好我早上聽了這麼多的論述、演講還有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9244.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9260.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
其中其實有海洋保育是全世界的趨勢只是說我們要怎麼樣把這個法例的最好比如說可能環保團體跟議會可能也會有不同的意見因為議會你會影響到他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9261.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9261.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9292.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9300.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
稀有的或者是甚至於瀕臨滅絕的生物那是更重要的所以這個都是一個我們要考慮到的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9301.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9326.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
立法的目的應該是雙贏 多贏而不是說破壞了某一個利益團體的很大的利益最好是大家都不會說保育也做到了經濟發展也達到了 這樣是最好但是可能會少部分會犧牲到一些利益團體的某些的利益但是有的時候也沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9327.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9328.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9348.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9362.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
核心區有提供協助研究然後緩衝新人口作為研究發展首劃定之區這兩個基本上都是可以提供協助研究但是不明確因為協助的研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9364.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9389.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
有沒有包括那個採樣比如說這個生物可不可以採樣因為你只有說學術研究這個是很籠統很模糊的很多學術研究是要帶到研究室去反養殖比如說你要做復育你的復育過程你需要了解他的整個生殖的一個整個週期然後他怎麼樣去產生後代那整個復育的過程是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9389.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9410.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
要採樣到研究室來做的而不是說只有去調查它的數量、監測這樣所以這個可能要更明確一點是不是可以帶到實驗室去做研究做一些複製的研究比如說臺灣有很多瀕臨滅絕的生物或者是稀有生物、保育生物 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9411.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9428.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
經過學術界的研究之後竟然可以大量的出來大量的繁殖那這個就解決了這個生物瀕臨滅絕的問題那我會提到這個問題是說譬如說我們那個觀音桃園觀音的三屆案它裡面有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9430.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9440.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
財産多培控三府三府當初三屆案的保育執行委員會有提議說 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9442.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9463.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
既然這個生物量這麼少是不是可以帶到實驗室做復育的工作可是申請了很多次都是否決的都是不行不能採到實驗室去做復育的工作那就是變成說你就是只能在桃園觀音讓那個自然的沙脈啊或者是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9464.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9464.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9484.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9506.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
他本來是可以去做一個很好的復育工作譬如說瞭解他的生殖過程影響他生殖的原因然後可以在研究室做很好的復育工作因為很多研究人員都是能力很強台灣的養殖業是世界有名的所以這個本來是可以克服一些養殖的問題做復育的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9508.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9525.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那這裡面又沒有說可以去採集做副業工作所以當初那個三屆案的關於保育執行委員會提出的時候都被火絕掉所以這個一直都沒有進行沒有去做任何的副業工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9526.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9542.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
然後後來 中郵也有做了很多的一些調查案其實柴山都配棟山湖最早發現是在高雄的柴山然後後來在那個山積案的時候觀音那個地方又出現了然後出現了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9544.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9568.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那我們那個執行委員會有提到說是不是可以假如這麼稀少是不是可以應該用研究人員的能力來做復育的工作因為台灣很多復育生物有很多復育成功的案例不是說沒有而且台灣養殖業都是比較強的在全世界來講所以呢但是提出去之後也都沒有成功過所以這個是一個問題然後另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9569.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9592.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
另外後來的調查也發現了在澎湖或者是在臺東也都有出現過所以這個其實是可以做一些比較好的復用所以這個我認為到時候你們立法的時候有一些字體模糊不清的可能要講得非常清楚因為草案裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9593.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9619.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
只有說科學研究那科學研究沒有包括採樣到研究室去做研究還是只能在野外做研究這個又不一樣所以可能要做得非常明確的一些的那個描述但到時候協助界要去做復育工作的研究結果全部都火絕掉了那也沒有辦法達成那個真正協助界貢獻在保育工作上的一些想要的努力好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9624.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9628.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
謝謝黃江聰教授的建議那接下來我們請蔓玉珍委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9642.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9643.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
賴玉珍議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9658.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9671.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
因為相信大家都知道這個步伐已經拖了很多會期以前本黨的蔡壁如委員也一直很關心海洋保育直到今天的公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9673.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9673.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9697.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9697.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
海洋保育法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9724.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9748.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
目前臺灣已經設立了69個海洋保護區但海保署在11年做了一次全面的評估結果還有11處沒有被有效的管理但是我們看到行政院的版本海保法其中一個重點就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9752.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9776.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
建議應該在法律裡面明定花色海洋庇護區的分類標準以及花色的依據而且花色的時間也要聽取當地民眾的意見尤其是這些靠海吃飯的移民們他們出海捕魚相當的危險和 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9778.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9778.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9799.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9822.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
在條文裡面明定要達到KPI的功能還能讓政府機構動起來管理有效率才是這個不法最大的目的另外目前海洋保育區在生態監測跟水文生物的資料上都不夠透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9824.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9840.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
雖然之前海洋委員會都說有把這些相關的資料都放在網頁上但是很多民眾都不知道要查哪些網站才能找到這些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9841.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9855.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
建議在這次的修法一定要納入資料資訊公開的部分讓海洋保護區的資訊可以更加透明也讓民眾可以參與海洋 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9857.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9861.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
賴慧珍委員 接下來我們請臺灣南野新竹生態協會研究中原施仲平 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9891.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9905.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
各位與會的先進大家好那我今天來開這場會議之前我有收到就是我們的開會討論提綱有四個大點那其實我原本是要針對第一點到第三點來做回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9906.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9908.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
現在已經有各種法令發射69個海洋保護區那海洋委員會應該要如何整合? |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9923.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9924.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
主管機關會商有關機關訂定整體海洋保護局管理政策方針並報請行政院核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9942.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9948.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
政策目標、海洋保護區之分級、海洋保護區之規劃及管理、以及保護區之監測、最後還有檢討及成效評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9963.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9964.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
是否應由海洋委員會全面管理達到事權統一? |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9981.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10001.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
這裏講的海洋保護區跟我們一般理解的海洋保護區並不是同一個概念它其實我們一般理解的保護自然或保護動物或生態其實是海洋保護區底下的海洋庇護區才是我們傳統想像的保護區而其他的保護區有的是保護文化資產有的是保護娛樂資源所以其實其他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10002.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10002.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10020.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10024.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
海洋病毒區化病的程序如何?如何納入外界的意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10047.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10050.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
畫定程序則是在我們可以看到第7條 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10051.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10080.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
還有兩個原則第一個是保護區﹚庇護區它是在保護區以外的地區劃設也就是剛才聽到的69個保護區以外的地方海洋委員會海洋保護署才會劃設海洋庇護區那第二個則是會在審議會的機制下面來進行第七條這邊有講到會有審議會那這個部分民間團體的人數是包含到二分之一這個是非常高的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10081.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10104.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
邱委員提到建議可以拉到三分之二我相信這個多方溝通多方表達聲音的部分都是可以考慮的那我要強調的是這個成立的規劃的方式並不再像過去都是可能官員在辦公室會講比較誇張可能就是paperwork下來之後今天下來的公告明天你收到之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10104.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10105.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
立法院第11會期內政委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10129.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10151.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
在這7條的兩個原則底下,第二項就是我們的這個海洋保育的主管機關,他是在會商其他主管機關的情況,就是我們剛才講的,他報請行政院,我們這個版本也是行政院出來的,所以並不是所謂的保育獨大,這個大家可以不要誤會,所有的主管機關他就他本 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10152.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10157.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
海洋保育法的機制設計如何能夠在產業發展與永續利用原住民傳統利益保障以及海洋保育生命四方面達到平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10178.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10205.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那我就來講一下其實剛才講到這個原名的部分好像沒有把它特別寫入法條但我們都知道許多法規像是刑法總則它是把相關的東西用一個總則的概念寫進去所以其實這個法規它在設計的時候在許多的限制的部分都是要會商主管機關才可以去訂定也就是說其實這個本套法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10205.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10206.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10223.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10227.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
第二點就是剛才有講到說我們的漁業或者漁民朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10244.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10272.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
最常見的弱勢團體的確剛才有講到說漁業有被歐盟發過黃牌但是我們也知道說漁業署像黃富洲以及這個海域基金會都有在做這個海鮮認證標章其實主管機關都有在做對這個漁民朋友的協助只是這溝通的部分要怎麼做到更好其實我們的目的都是一樣的我要講一下我自己的案例去年在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10274.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10288.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
通院一會的時候我們在講這個八海豚重要棲息環境的畫色其實那時候有蠻多的漁民就反對那我說大家漁民朋友今天看到我在這邊可能365天看到我在這一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10288.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10306.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
知不知道我在其他的場合在環評會幾天我在各個關鍵板的開發或者說這個所謂的天然氣的管道或其他的時間我並不是只有針對移民朋友我們其實是對整個其他的產業我們都有一定的來討論我們其實是夥伴的關係透過這個中期的劃設之後這個中期的審議委員會多少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10315.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10315.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10334.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10335.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10356.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10357.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
立法院第11會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10373.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10374.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
規定必須在兩年內進行通盤檢討六法 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10395.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10422.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
修法跟訂定如果今天是我們所謂的倉促立法今天這場會議是在110年就結束了我們的法就出來了所以這可以見識到我們的主管機關是非常在意溝通非常有心要跟各界溝通並不是要倉促立法我今年已經30了我們還有多少個5年10年我們的國座還有多少我覺得這個是大家必須往前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10423.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10424.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
立法院第11會期內政委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10444.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10462.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
就持續不前我要最後說一次漁棒相爭這個理論大家都懂漁棒相爭結果是漁翁得利但是不是現在這個情況不是在座的漁民是漁翁而是保育團體以及漁民我們好像在被搞的漁棒相爭一樣我們希望做到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10463.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10479.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
合作的關係一起來對抗這個海洋的污染海洋的破壞我們也看到保護區所有的規定核心區不要講緩衝區是可以許可之下就是漁業行為永續利用區甚至連許可都不用就是漁業行為的使用它規範的就是那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10480.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10480.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10503.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10505.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
主席的委員我們這裡的專家好 這裡的大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10526.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10549.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
我不要再補充大家所講的這些理論我現在可能是代表本會的漁民的一些想法目前這片海域除了港港局我們所謂的財團就是離岸風機 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10551.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10571.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
再來就是我們這裏的漁民問題點就是說 大家都在這片海域在生存的時候 所有的 都有客戶在你們所有的地方 甘許所謂航港局所有的航道啊 還是他們說的道道區啊 你們都有客戶在那對不對 今天 其實我來參加這個會議 我心裡很清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10579.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10605.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
如果沒有有機會一定要來參加啦如果沒有來參加我們連講話的機會都沒有啊像我們總幹事所講的他們講的這些都是講出我們心裡的心聲啦但是不要再重複那些話阿子在說的不意思現在一個情況就是說我們今天啊所規劃的這一區域啊真的要來地方跟漁會跟我們這些漁民好好來談啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10607.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10620.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
每個地方都有他的特色不是說我這邊講好 與您講好 台中就可以 彰化講好 苗栗就可以沒有這回事 要大家一一好好說再來就是說 其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10626.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10640.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
我常常聽到說 要叫漁民轉型啦 也要是說要什麼 勇士精英 我覺得是空談啦 都是那幾個字而已啊有什麼你不知道啊 啊一轉型就什麼啊 我們科幣說離岸風機就好了 所有的工作全部就是都 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10646.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10649.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
在我們海巴巴裡面有沒有幫我們想一下,什麼是永續金融,我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10670.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10686.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
真的啦很可憐啦你跟我說什麼是永續經營你要叫我們移民要轉型啊要永續經營是要這八個字喔永遠給地方就是這幾個字而已啊沒有一個實質的啦我舉例一下好了啦我們地方有做一片太陽能板一片很大片啦算幾百公頃吧算大了啦結果咧光洗一個太陽能板也不會留給地方啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10698.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10714.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
整個地方搞的無煙瘴氣就光洗個太陽能板要不要洗不是重點喔重點是連留在地方洗的機會都沒有全部都是外包地方這個鄉親什麼都沒有我是舉例啦我現在不是在講能源的問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10715.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10733.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
所以變成說在這個海保法裡面或是這個海域裡面不要永遠跟我們講的希望我們轉型 要轉什麼型我們本來就很好過的 為什麼要轉型呢是你們把我們基本的生活條件全部抹煞掉再叫我們轉型轉完勒 怎麼轉 對不對我再舉例一下好了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10742.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10749.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
屏東的東港的櫻花蝦公會為什麼那麼成功會長跟我蠻不錯的為什麼那麼成功因為他只做一件事情保護保證我們漁價的一個穩定我們政府有做到嗎我們這個法規有規定到嗎都沒有農業如果如果以所謂什麼封鎖的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10771.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10796.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
全 物價全部崩盤 那個農產品崩盤的時候 政府都跳出來欸啊 我很倒楣勒 我每次出去補魚啊 每次崩盤啊只要我出去補什麼魚 什麼魚都崩盤那到底有沒有人來幫我們保護我們 沒有 完全沒有啊是不是 最主要是說我們要推動一個法案 真的是 講實在的你要法沒關係嘛 進去50萬沒有進去 你剛好要跳到50萬 沒有吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10801.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10821.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所以有些時候賞禮罰我就覺得你一定要把它明定很清楚你來地方跟我們講講實在的我們不是刁民啦我們是人民啦我們不是吃飽飲飲你看所有的草案只要一推動地方一執行要抗議生世襲有恐怖嗎只要每次推動什麼什麼都抗議 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10824.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10843.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
你們沒有去想到一個重點嗎如果要推動一個什麼 我們來地方好好談就像剛才壯平所講的你只要把它講出來 這個區塊到底行不行 能不能做我們生活在這片海域 比你們還清楚這邊畫下去會怎麼樣 這邊做下去會怎麼樣像我們雲林的雲林工廠 就跟他講潰線進來一定要斷這個是活沙你就偏要做 現在斷了嘛 拼命去斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10855.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10861.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
我們講實在好像我們都在害你們好像在刁難你們結果我們是在幫大家解決問題還有我們本身像剛才我們議會總幹事也講其實我們很自律我們拿到的這些海廢都帶回來很努力的一直在拍照一直在這個社會上一直在跟社會上講這麼的欺民不是這樣抓他你破壞這個環境我也是被你破壞這個環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10883.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10905.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我在協會開會常講,我們把這個海當成是自己的餘溫我們要投入成本,我們要努力的維護,我們才有好的收穫再來還有一點,就是說海上的安全問題剛才有幾位這些先進有講到,葡萄產的問題真的要再提醒一下我每天晚上要出海,到出海口 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10911.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10935 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
對阿給他拼命一次勒他永遠只有一個頭燈阿我開船開到他附近看到頭燈轉過來有一艘波特船在海上飄阿要誰的命阿起霧天怎麼辦我光看到波特船退車就幾次了好幾次我們開出去到外面鼻子摸了就回來為什麼浪太大 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10935.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10955.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
當我往東邊靠的時候,波特船是往西邊開等我們進港休息的時候,電話打過來了,回電話今天給我們救一下啦,我們這有幾隻準病啊臺子村年初就翻了五艘了還是我們去救他們這一點真的是值得我們這個海洋保育法如果再做的時候要規定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10956.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10957.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
請莊惠雄委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10985.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11007.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
謝謝召委、謝謝主席還有這場所有的先進還有各個團體的好朋友、列席的一個官員那我想我剛也在底下聆聽了一些團體的一個意見那也正可以去看到說海洋保育這個是這一部法令確實是需要跟各界來經過廣泛的、各界深入的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11008.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11017.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
跟溝通那個尋求社會上最大的一個共識海洋我相信這個其實涉及到領域非常大有經濟有生態有產業但我記得這個在過去在立法院裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11026.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11053.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
這個大家對於臺灣四面環海大家很清楚整個海洋事務是多元跟龐雜所設的主管機關也非常多所以我們在107年的時候去成立海洋委員會這個也是象徵著政府以海洋思維作出發全力投入海洋發展的一個堅毅的決心2019年的時候我們通過了海洋基本法是明定政府必須要在兩年內去制定海洋保育法跟海域管理法在內的海洋三法 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11054.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11083.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那我在很榮幸在上一屆在當任內政委員會召委的時候我們順利的完成了一加一就是海洋產業法案條例的立法跟海無防治法的一個修法這個雖然是歷史性的一課但是雖然是遲到了但是這個顯示政府對這個法的一個慎重性那海保法就剛我談到了就是說這個部分確實要跟各界再去做廣泛的跟深入的一個溝通那我倒有一個想法就是說海保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11083.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11083.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11106.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11111.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
跟畫社整個海洋庇護區整個海洋庇護區我看這個就變成這次討論的一個核心以我屏東來看的話我三個海我要為新航開始新航、東港、小琉球、南北、加東、邦遼、邦沙、沙沙這幾個地方都台灣來寫去高雄鎮八十愛夾寫一年你再寫去溫州、太平洋三個海 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11132.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11146.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
小琉球哥市面都是黃海那我也特別關心而那個地方產業其實有餘孽我們也一直想要發展整個運動的一個產業那所以我倒認為說地方政府如果說沒有這個一個法源通過的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11148.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11153.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
法通過以後才是地方政府去跟相關團體跟當地的居民去做對話這個是我們在內政委員會一直要去支持的一個原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11163.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11175.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
通過其實就是溝通的一個開始那我們今天很開心就是看到這麼多朋友來表達不同的意見我們也希望主管單位這個地方聲音也要聽進去另外我要講的就是說現行海洋保育區裡面你去看我們佔整個領海跟淨線水域裡面你差不多不到9%8.38%也就是說近90%的海域裡面沒有受到保護區法規的規範那你按照整個海保法的草案裡面第7條你劃設海洋 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11192.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11192.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
立法院第11會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11218.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11233.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
主管機關得派海洋保育觀察員在船舶海洋設施跟海洋工程跟周圍從事觀察監測跟蒐集資料的任務必要時可以尋求海洋巡防機關警察機關的一個協助本席認為說到底我們後續會賦予這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11236.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11255.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
海洋保育觀察員多少的一個公權力這涉及到執法的力度到什麼地方你增加了這些海保的觀察員以現在還好為你的事務你們這些事務的一個員額緊繃的程度你到底是員額到底充不充足我相信人總這個地方他應該是否會配合協調進行這個整個員額的一個調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11261.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11261.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
一併列入立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11277.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11297.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
所以今天這個公聽會裏面大家可不可以在審慎去做一個思考說賦予公權力我今天到時候沒搞掂到時候一個處理員說來喔我再拜託你海巡來拜託你警察來這個就有一點失去有一點失去我們這個立法的一個意義所以我們這一部法令不只兼顧平衡社會各群體最大的一個利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11298.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11298.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
公聽會議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11321.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11346.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
臺灣四面黃海不是哪一個縣市的一個問題啦有各個不同的一個產業啦我寧欺民我便當欺民寧欺民也很多捏我也要照顧捏但問題就是我們期待有一個法案依據讓它去跨社會地方政府去跟各個團體來做一個溝通沒法論喔 威也沒辦法威啦所以我倒反而是認為說法的通過是溝通的一個開始啦我們及時廣益啦謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11349.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11354.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
謝謝莊惠淑委員再來我們請新社部落會議主席潘真祥 潘主席謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11369.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11398.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
主席還有各位委員還有各位好朋友還有專家學者我是新社葛滿的潘真曉我帶著部落頭目跟部落的意見來這邊跟大家討論事實上謝謝各位上面寫的尊重原住民我真的覺得我也尊重我們的海保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11400.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11428.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我想這個我們不是來調侃對方我們在想我們真正我在那個草間袋大家知道不知道草間袋是什麼地方有沒有在草間袋檢食過任何一個例如貝類或者是任何一種螺或者是鹿角菜或者是海菜請問各位專家學者有檢過嗎這麼簡單的一件事就草間袋而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11431.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11458.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那你們為什麼要立這樣跟原住民非常衝突的一個法很抱歉我這樣子講可能太過於我們原住民四肢不多可能說話沒辦法像專家學者一樣這麼優雅很抱歉當時我們頭目看了這個一些資料他非常的清楚的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11459.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11484.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
為什麼沒有替我們族人的基於文化有稍些許的去做個討論我跟漁民在討論的時候漁民一人真的他們對一人忘記為什麼我們的部落的經濟跟朝鮮代的經濟都沒有被討論這是我們部落的這麼簡單的想法他們看了 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11486.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11500.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
就知道大概問題出現在哪裡所以我帶著部落口目跟我們族人的想法我們在新社部落其實新社部落可以跟大家報告我們新社部落身穿離海已經到了聯合國各位去查可以去查一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11506.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11534.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
阿就是我們的新社那塊半島我們在做海域的保育我們也做了珊瑚礁的保育也都跟領務局農委會水保局他們一起合作阿所以深川立海已經到了聯合國跟各位這個我們我們非常感謝那我們一直很難想像我們可以跟中央部會一起合作在做這樣子的保育的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11536.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11562.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
其實一直到了這幾年李光仲教授他是東華大學的一個教授現在已經就在產揚我們身穿離海新社部落的這樣子的願景這新社村的一個願景我們希望把這樣的願景一直發展下去我們也有一個也護了一條溪跟各位報告裡面有20幾種的蝦類你們相信嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11565.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11585.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我在想可能對護溪或者是保育的人有想法的人都應該很清楚在台史一線上竟然有一條河流有20幾種蝦類其實保育過頭不是個好事大家知道猕猴事件嗎其實我準備了一大堆要說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11592.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11614.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
可是我覺得我就把我們的故事講給大家聽保育了民喉請問國家只要講一句話我們不保育了請問所當其衝的是誰是部落的族人跟在地的族人不管是原住民還是我們講的遠漢 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11616.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11625.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我們都不要講其實真的是在地的族人就是受到衝擊各位有沒有看到猴子進到你們家的廚房的時候應該都沒有有機會可以到我們部落來試試看非常歡迎其實有時候保育的我想大家在討論食物鏈的時候呢都不要超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11645.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11670.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
有時候我一直在思考其實像我們一直尊重部落頭目的或者是部落長輩齊老的意見是因為他們比我們生活在這個區塊更久所以我們一直在部落是一直都非常尊重部落長輩的意見在他們非常清楚的告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11671.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11698.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
怎麼保育這一類的草菅帶的生物現在我們葛馬蘭在等我們叫Nabas是一種我們葛馬蘭非常最重要的花它就要開花了我們就要捕飛魚了根據報告我們葛馬蘭有三個身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11699.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11728.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
現在是從農夫轉成漁夫的身份冬天的時候我們是個獵人你們有這麼多職業嗎我們是有這麼多職業的跟各位報告我也是漁民物你們也可以查我有船員證我也會跟我表哥去捕獵飛魚3月份到4月份的時候我們的沙會從海上就直接都覆蓋了我們的新設的沙灘 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11730.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11759.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
然後我們可以出港大概七八月的時候東北颶風就來了沙灘就離開我們那裡因為我們要去當獵人這樣其實我們一直我們部落一直尊重著我們的這個大自然我想各位在設定海保法的時候能尊重除了我們葛瑪蘭以外我想跟尊重每一個族群別 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11760.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11768.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
不管是原漢 我覺得都應該注重靠海為生的這些不管是漁民原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11771.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11798.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這是一種尊重不是只要字面上給你們尊重我也很尊重各位等下桌子我剛才開開玩笑我跟委員講那個處長講桌子推了我就走了可以嗎這是尊重尊重不是說在嘴巴上放在心裡面我們也希望我也希望我們在海委會或者是相關的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11799.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11823.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
來到我們部落我們頭目說他們沒有來找過我們原則上這個東西我們會保留其實不好意思我算是講得非常客氣原則上我們部落會覺得沒有受到尊重可能會不同意如果真的要保育我們葛瑪1300多個也保育一下我們葛瑪大家覺得怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11825.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11844.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
有時候我覺得保育不是過頭而是我想需要去修法的話我想應該尊重彼此我們也很清楚我們的原基法常常跟我們海防的規定常常起衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11846.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11870.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
他用規定來制定我們在原住民地方在可能在做採集的時候會產生衝突所以我在這邊最後請求各位委員能尊重靠海的不管是情人還是原住民以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11873.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11874.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
環境責任基金會葉宜萱主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11885.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11912.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
主席、然後各位在場專家學者、漁民團體還有這個原住民部落代表的各位先進大家好我是環境正義基金會葉宇生那我因為其實剛剛聽很多不同的利害關係人的發言所以我剛剛也是調整了一下今天要講的內容那我想邀請大家一起來看一下剛剛大家討論的各式各樣的困境然後我們再來一起想像有海保法的未來那剛剛大家講到的困境其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11914.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11938.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
如果要把它劃約成幾項的話我想大概有四項第一個很關鍵就是所謂漁民生計嘛今天在場有這麼多漁民的各種代表那其實大家都講到一樣的問題就是漁民生計其實過去好多人都在講了就台灣嚴禁海無魚這個困境那這對大家來說都是不希望看到的嘛因為我們有海洋文化我們有海鮮文化可是如果這樣的困境持續發展下去那接下來要怎麼傳承 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11939.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11962.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
對於未來的子孫來說這是一個很大的困境那對於現在當然漁民的生計也會是一個困境嘛那再來第二個問題是所謂原住民參與像剛剛新社部落的這個代表也有提到其實不只是新社部落那像剛剛其實也有聊到說所謂都藍部落他們可能也在發展自己的海保區那其實就我們跟都藍部落的互動理解其實都藍部落他們在2021年 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11963.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11992.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
自己就已經有一個部落去劃設海保區的這樣的一個規劃可是從2021年的8月都已經劃出三個海保區他要在什麼樣的經緯度有什麼樣的禁限制行為然後部落會議也通過了可是2021年到現在他都還沒有通過那為什麼其實就是因為缺乏法源依據雖然說原住民可能部落可以透過海洋基本法第10條或是原基法第20條來做劃設可是現實的情況就是他們直到現在還卡住 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11992.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12001.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
所以我們可以看到說這也是一個期待透過新的一個立法過程來調節的一個困境那再來第三個想要講的問題是所謂氣候變遷的問題相信大家應該也都有感覺到最近天氣這個變化萬千那其實就科學上面的監測也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12010.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12010.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12030.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12030.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
《海洋保育法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12056.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12081.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我們認為說有一部海保法首先它第一個很重要的功能是因為資訊公開透明所以我們其實才能在同一個基準點上面討論其實剛剛也有漁民代表說不要再說什麼嚴禁海無魚都是因為漁民的破壞就是因為大家其實現在對於到底這個嚴禁海無魚這件事情生物多樣性的銳減這件事情最主要到底是什麼問題的掌握度不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12082.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12082.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12102.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12102.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12127.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12142.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
環資也有來那其實環境資訊協會他們過去就是一直在做珊瑚礁的這個調查嘛那也有其他像比如說重品蠻眼星族他們也不斷在針對離岸風機對白海豚的這個影響進行很多關注那所以公民團體他也可以提供很好這個社區參與的經驗還有海洋調查的這個資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12145.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12173.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那再來第三點是因為有這個所謂最佳可得的這個科學資料其實對所有人來說我們其實都希望說做任何開發之前要關注它到底對海洋有多大的衝擊所以所謂的大型開發案未來在遵守這個預警原則的情況下應該要先理解它對於我們整個生態系有多少的衝擊才能夠去進行那對於漁民或是關心環境的這個環保團體來講我想這都是一個很重要也很期待發生的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12174.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12179.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
海保區有時候是透過畫小範圍的禁漁區就可以達到很好的這個復育效果那的確我們今天在講這個30乘30並不是說30%全部都是禁漁區要所有漁民都離漁不是的而是我們怎麼樣透過畫小範圍海保區達到很好的保育效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12197.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12197.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
《海洋保育法草案》公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12214.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12214.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
立法院第11會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12230.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12257.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
像剛剛講到氣候變遷其實裡面有一個很關鍵的生態系就是所謂藍炭生態系我們的海草紅樹林還有岩藻它其實都可以協助不管是氣候變遷的減緩因為它可以顧炭那或者是這個調適因為像現在越來越多這個極端的天氣災害事件其實都讓海岸線受到很大的侵擾那如果我們可以以生態系為本去進行這個藍炭生態系的富裕跟保育的話其實也可以去為我們的氣候變遷做一個很大的貢獻那其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12257.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12258.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
《海洋保育法》公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12282.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12283.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
《海洋保育法草案》 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12299.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12299.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
國際公民 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12319.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12333.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
為什麼會有這樣的一個國際聲浪在討論我們要達到30成30就是因為全球都已經看到現在這個困境不得不處理的一個急迫性那相信大家剛剛也有不斷的在討論說到底立這個法是不是很倉促 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12334.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12362.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那其實就長期關注海洋保育的團體的角度來說我們實在是很難接受這樣子的一個說法啦但是我們也可以理解為什麼大家會覺得說沒有被充分的溝通到或者是覺得說好像突然被告知因為的確在資訊的溝通上面過去可能有一些不足的地方那我們就是很希望說透過這個海保法可以解決剛剛講到所有利害關係人的各種困境那讓我們能夠真正的在2030年有序的劃設30%的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12363.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12363.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
楊丞英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12381.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12382.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
海保法研製多年 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12399.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12414.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
上一屆我統計有86位跨黨派委員公開連署支持要設立這個法原因是海委會在108年凝聚了海保法草案之後我們包括了環保團體、漁民 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12417.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12445.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
還有農業、專家學者、國人所提出的許多的這個意見大家經過不斷的來討論那我們也了解到現行在我國海域所從事的這個各類的海洋資源活動它的原則性的一個規範以及目前所劃定特別是保護區的一個相關規範都散布在各部散布在各部的法規譬如說有野生動物保育法 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12446.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12469.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
國家公園法、漁業法、水下文化資產保存法、還有文化資產保存法以及濕地保育法、海洋管理法、國土計劃法、都市計劃法、發展觀光條例等那麼唯一對於整個海洋生物多樣性跟海洋生態的一個長期系統性的養護 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12471.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12471.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12493.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12493.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
立法院第11會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12508.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12508.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12525.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12525.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12546.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12574.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
因為不同的區域它會產生不一樣的管理資源也是不一樣的法院的一個必須要成立所以在這樣的情況之下檢討跟改善它是必須的因為也就是說沒有辦法統合的一個概念跟狀態所以必須要做一個整合的一個管理那所以因此我們又看到現在全世界各國都在關注的也就是氣候變遷的這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12576.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12576.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
檢探 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12598.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12599.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12614.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12617.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
《生物多樣性以及海洋生態系統長期的養護》 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12634.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12650.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
同時我們看到今天非常感謝包括了原住民的朋友也發聲包括了漁民系統也在發聲因為現在比如說在台中港外海的部分也開始在種綠電那這樣子整體性到底要怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12651.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12651.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12667.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12692.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
但是為什麼能夠達成也就是不斷的來跟漁民來溝通所以本席要特別針對我也來自台中在台中港還長大的孩子我希望我們的政府部門相關單位必須要好好的跟漁民來做溝通漁民非常的善良就像白海豚一樣經過不斷的溝通大家做好合作的工作只要漁民發現哪裡有到白海豚他們不斷的趕快通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12695.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12695.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12717.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12717.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
楊純英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12753.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12769.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
主席然後那今天有很多相關的部會跟今天也有很多我們出席的包括專家學者或漁民漁會的代表今天一起到這個公聽會上面來討論海洋保育法因為大概在會會 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12770.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12785.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
開始運作成立之後當然有幾個相關海洋的法規我們陸陸續續在修尤其是在去年我們當然修過了這個海務法那現在剩下來一個真的大家比較關注的當然就是海保法的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12786.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12806.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
海洋保育法的立法對落實海洋保育是非常重要的功能有很多長期立志在海洋保育的朋友或團體非常期待尤其在去年3月聯合國宣布通過全球海洋公約之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12807.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12830.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
那當然這陣子其實我們也聽到有一些其他的部門包括漁業部門、能源部門或運輸部門其實有一些聲音那大家擔心的事情就是在海域空間使用上面的爭議或者是衝突會不會這個再度發生的狀況那我們怎麼處理尤其是現在大家在談到2050淨零排放也包括能源轉型的幾個目標那 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12831.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12849.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
也剛才大家也提到像離岸風電會不會遇到海洋生態造成影響的這個狀況那或者是怎麼去做相關的評估也包括如果真的發生了衝突以後這個衝突要怎麼去調解跟管理那當然還有最重要當然今天在座我看到很多都是關心漁業權的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12851.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12878.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
其實這些在過去一年多我自己有看到海保署是有做一些努力在跟其他部門來做這些溝通來爭取各界的信任雖然目前聽起來大家還是有一些擔憂但我至少聽起來有幾個部分看起來想法是相近的看起來大家都是同意要針對海洋生態的多樣性來進行保育都會覺得這部分恐怕是需要做更多我覺得這部分看起來聽起來大家是贊同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12879.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12904.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
沒有人認為海洋生態是不需要保育的尤其是需要做更多只是現在問題是在做法跟法規的訂定跟機制的建立上面要怎麼更細緻的處理就我目前今天整個早上的公聽會下來大家關心的是做法上面的工作我這邊有兩個比較重要的建議的原則第一個原則是海洋保育勢必不是要來跟產業發展為敵的 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12906.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12926.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
那尤其是需要在利基於最佳可得的科學資訊的原則上面來進行相關的調查研究跟以科學為本的後續的工作的進行包括評估海域生態的這個基礎那包括分區上面要如何以生態系為單位來做科學化的保育跟賦育這當然會是科學 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12927.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12944.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
海洋治理不可或缺的一部分也就是必須以科學為本尤其是假設又要去化解大家在保育跟產業上面衝突的話更需要利據這些詳細而且真實的科學的資訊這是第一個原則第二個原則是必須要消除不同利害關係人的疑慮的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12946.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12969.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
也要降低化受海洋屁股區相關的正義化那現在我們在審議的機制裡面必須要明確的納入不同利害關係人參與的權利這必須被保障所以在這點裡面在我自己提出來的版本其實也募集也參考了一些遠距離法的精神在條文中希望能夠對於審議會裡面各不同參加的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12970.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12971.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
海洋保育法草案公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12992.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13009.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
過去其實是有一些這些公民科學家和公民團體其實就有反應臺灣的海洋基礎報告的資料尤其是物種的多樣性跟關鍵物種的生態的狀況數量區域跟動態變化這些基礎資料其實都相當的缺乏 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13010.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13031.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
或是散落在各個地方沒有被公開也許過去有做過研究可是這些相關研究的data可能都在不同的研究團隊裡面並沒有被釋放跟公開出來這讓我們其實對於整體海洋的理解其實都變得相對的片段跟破碎所以大家可能各自只看到自己看到的那個部分沒有辦法有一個總體的這個完整的視角 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13034.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13052.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
所以如果我們相關單位有做科學研究我認為我們應該要在這個海洋保育法的規範裡面要要求更大程度的公佈相關的科研的結果來開放大家能夠對這些結果能夠有參與或進一步的下一步的工作才能夠讓這套治理能夠真正的發揮功效來減少衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13054.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13074.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
除了剛才講的基礎調查以外包括海域的管理跟海洋保育的教育包括尤其是監控相關的工作其實也是非常非常重要的一環所以最後我要提的事情是說我們其實都知道在海洋利用的部門跟主管機關其實很多尤其是以現在來說以離岸風電或漁業就是一個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13075.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13075.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
主管國產署 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13096.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13118.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
海岸管理法和勢力保育法的主管機關所以為了接下來我自己也希望說如果真的我們要進入審議的話我們也希望能夠用一些附帶決議的方式來去規範這麼複雜的這個主管機關在相對重要的工作上面他的每個的角色跟工作我們不應該因為多通過了一個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13118.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13137.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
所以讓剛剛很多相關他可能一些座位必須升起的工作變得更加的複雜或者是更加的多頭馬車在主管機關的這個尤其是跨部會機制的規範上面把它建立起來我覺得也可以讓今天在座一些相關的利害相關人他自己有一些相必須保障的權益的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13138.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13138.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13169.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13171.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
主席本會本院的委員還有各部會的代表以及專家寫者 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13199.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13224.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
有關行政院版的海洋保育法涉及到有提到原住民族的條款的只有一條就是第8條這裡面特別提到最後一項第一項海洋庇護期保育計劃之擬定涉及原住民族土地及海域法則中央主管機關因依原住民族基本法之規定辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13227.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13255.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
這條條文還有一個問題在哪裡呢?海域原住民族的海域依原住民族基本法的規定要由嚴明會跟相關的目的事業主管機關來劃設到現在只劃設一個臺東的原住民族的海域花蓮、屏東等原住民族包括宜蘭都有我們原住民族的海域但是都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13257.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13282.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
我們看這個原住民族基本法第19條裏面規定採集野生植物包括野生動物海洋的野生動物都是原住民族基本法第19條讓原住民族能夠維護他的傳統技藝文化以及生活上非營利的致用 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13284.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13304.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
原住民族基本法第20條也特別明訂政府承認原住民族自然資源的潛力要怎麼樣去落實在海洋保育法這是一個很重要的課題尤其是海洋基本法第10條就訂得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13305.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13328.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
政府應建立合一機制尊重維護保存傳統用海智慧等海洋文化資產保障與傳承原住民族傳統用海文化及權益要把這些條文怎麼在保育法裡面不要受到侵害應該把它條文化明確化 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13329.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13348.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
海洋基本法第13條也規定要保障原住民族海域使用者的權益所以這個部分不僅僅是原住民族包括移民移民原有海域使用者的權益都應該要保障所以這個部分在 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13349.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13366.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
相關的現在的行政院版裡面都沒有就只有剛才那條條文我們看這個國土計劃法我們要去對照過去的法律已經通過的國土計劃法這個是指針對我國管轄之陸域及海域包括海域在這裡面國土計劃法第11條規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13380.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13392.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
國土計劃特定區域內容涉及原住民族土地及海域者因依原住民族基本法第21條規定辦理國土計劃法第23條也規定涉及原住民族土地及海域之使用管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13405.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13427.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
應依原則民主基本法21條規定辦理然後這個使用管制的規則要由內政部會同人民會來擬定所以在私地保育法也是一樣這個都是在第8屆我剛講的國土計劃法私地法這個都是在第8屆立法院的第8屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13429.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13434.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
涉及限制原住民族利用原住民族土地及自然資源史,核定權應以當地原住民族諮商並取得其同意。 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13451.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13479.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
所以行政院尤其是海洋委員會保育署你們不要擔心這些法律已經通過很多年了很多年了有沒有影響到沒有我們原住民族在台灣幾千年來跟台灣的山林跟台灣的海共生共存我們絕對不會破壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13481.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13503.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
所以這個部分不要擔心就把它納入把海洋基本法最重要的這些條文就把它納入具體化 明確化這才是一個負責任的一個政府海洋管理法也是一樣也是在第8屆的時候通過的涉及原住民族地區各級主管就因為會商原住民族委員會擬定所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13505.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13527.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
本席提出相關草案涉及原住民族基本法和海洋基本法涉及原住民族基本原則明確化必須在海洋保育法裏面所以我要特別請 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13529.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13544.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
海洋委員會保育署以及相關的部會在我們逐條審查所能夠支持本席所提出來的這些草案因為我們不能比之前還退步 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13545.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13571.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
還不如國土計劃法還不如私地法還不如相關的其他的法例所以這個部分要請特別這個海洋委員會以及保育署相關的部會尤其是我們的這個內政委員會的立委能夠支持這個本席所提出的尤其是涉及到原住民主的部分 以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13573.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13574.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
謝謝政評參委員再來我們請劉許廷委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13583.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13603.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
好謝謝主席齁各位委員齁各位這個六席的官員各位專家學者齁大家早安大家好齁這個我先呼應一下剛剛鄭天才委員的說法因為我剛剛邊聽他講齁在法條上寫只有一條齁但只有一條其實這個原民會應該也有角色嘛但我在議會報告裡面完全沒有看到齁所以說不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13604.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13613.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
不要怪大家說覺得這個法溝通不周延很多地方確實要透過更仔細的對話讓這部法的定律有更好的立法品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13615.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13644.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
今天有幾點跟大家做報告第一個按照中華民國現況我們的海島國家海洋生態是我們的重要資產那麼在全球氣候變遷那有很多地方有所謂的過度捕撈的疑慮之下對於海洋生態資源的保育跟這個經濟的活動的平衡它當然有它的必要性也有它的急迫性所以本席非常樂見這個海保法的制定那我更希望的是在海保法內應該要有實際執行的相關期程 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13645.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13671.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
要求政府提出相關的政策而且落實我想是比定立法律更加重要要修就要像 要修就要做第二個 海洋資源的運用涉及漁業 原住民族 觀光 交通 能源等各方權益要如何均衡協調各方利益以達永續發展目標本席希望海保法相關的政策形成要廣納各界的意見 以求周延按理說應該要在最初期 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13671.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13697.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
就應該廣召相關團體進行討論但今天的公聽會也有非常多的團體有表達過去在討論的過程中他好像被排除在外或者是在溝通的過程中沒有辦法暢所欲言我想這些都是會造成這個法案修正上的一些障礙所以我剛剛講要修就要下要修就要做但既然要做那就要周延所以不夠周延是不行的我們要多方討論那再來本期有幾個立場這個希望在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13699.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13724.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
禮拜四開始討論除僵審查的時候可以具體被納入這個三個小的訴求第一個整體海洋保護區的管理政策方針是沒有任何的實現的換言之政院版草案的第六條攸關整體海洋保護區的管理政策跟方針的條文是沒有內容的也有空有條文但沒有內容那沒有方針的時候那到底我們修過海保法之後他真的有辦法實施上路嗎所以針對這部分我們要有更詳實的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13725.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13747.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
第二有關資訊公開跟共享的部分現行的海洋保護區在生態的監測跟執行的管理上資訊透明有改善的空間那政院版的草案也沒有看到資訊公開的相關內容海保法應該納入海洋保護或者是庇護區的生態監測資訊還有對外公開的相關條文讓海保法從監測到管理全面公開透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13748.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13777.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
受公民社會的監督也能夠共享相關資訊讓各方有想法的民眾有一個研究的空間再來第三個叫擴大公民的參與權限現在的政院版草案只限縮了公民參與的機會必須的劃設與否跟討論公民跟利害關係人只能在最後的審議階段才能夠參與我們剛剛也講了我們希望討論要周延我們當然希望能夠擴大公民的參與權限讓民間團體利害關係人跟在地居民都可以有 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13777.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13794.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
畫色或者是討論 充分討論海洋庇護區的機會人數 代表 比例我們應該要在禮拜四的這個主條審查部分充分商議 納入不同人的意見但是公平參與的權限一定要擴大這是本席的主張這樣才能夠落實海保法雙向的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13795.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13799.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
海豹法對於台灣的海洋資源保護非常重要本席希望在妥善溝通採納各方意見的前提下來儘速通過來落實海洋保育跟經濟發展的雙贏的局面以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13823.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13824.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
台灣媽祖保育聯盟國家文藏物理事 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13852.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13874.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
主席各位長官大家好我是納族與保育聯盟的船務理事郭嘉文那非常感謝剛剛有先進提到八海豚的保育八海豚目前的保育工作由政府、漁民朋友以及民間團體共同合作有看到非常正面的成果那剛剛有許多先進提到八海豚撞到棲息環境的話是有經過充分的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13876.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13877.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
海洋保育法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13890.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13891.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
立法院第11屆第1會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13912.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13928.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
保育的思維其實它並不能夠只看一個單一的物種而是要看整個氣息環境氣息環境品質的提升海洋生態的穩定雖然可能不是立竿見影可是只有停止污染跟破壞海洋資源才會有回復的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13929.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13933.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
海洋保育法的規範,把海洋生物跟漁業資源,都用棲地保育的方式來做一個完整的保育跟服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13954.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13974.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
現在在海上作業的漁民或者是住在海線的居民長期關注海洋生態的民間團體以及長期投入海洋研究的一些老師應該都對於海洋的現況其實是有點擔憂的那有許多漁民鯉魚其實我們自己在做了很多漁民訪談的過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13976.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14001.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
我們有發現最核心的原因其實是因為各項的開發跟污染造成了漁人不足甚至是佔據了漁民的漁場而海保法實際上可以給漁民帶來最大的好處就是可以讓利害關係人充分參與海洋庇護區的發射以及溝通那這個法案當中也納入了公民訴訟也可以補足其他法案在公民參與機制上面的不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14002.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14003.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
海洋保育法 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14022.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14041.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
的朋友都了解要保育一個物種或者是想要一種漁獲可以豐收都是要靠維護整個棲地環境才有成效的但是現在棲地流失的速度開發跟破壞棲地污染的腳步其實是很快的 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14042.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14057.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
反觀立法的腳步已經是抬滿了從2020年的4月到現在已經經過4年了所以希望大家還是要正視海洋保育法立法的必要性跟急迫性讓破壞減速海洋資源的回復才有辦法加速謝謝謝謝謝謝郭常務理事再來我們請台灣環境資訊協會議題中心的主任陳資榮主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14073.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14087.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
主席各位部會夥伴以及各位前輩們大家好那這邊就很快速的簡單講一下就是我們對我對今天的會議其實也有點開心但也有點難過是我覺得它達到一個公聽的效果就是所有的人都到了現場然後我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14088.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14088.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14104.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14132.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
在庇護區劃設的審議會其實就像現在這樣的狀態各位夥伴在討論說好像沒有發言的權利那在過去在保護區的劃設可能的確真的像是張藝教授有提到由上而下的劃設並沒有經過多方的溝通然後可能就是單純學術的研究等等的資訊說我必須要劃設卻沒有直接去面對到第一線的利害關係人但未來的審議會就像現在那種情形這個場域我們現在劃設庇護區是在哪裡有哪些利害關係人應該要組成這個所謂的審議會才進行來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14134.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14138.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
在立法的急迫性很多前輩都有提到現在的保護區其實分屬各部會或者說它的管理機制不盡相同那其實它難以發揮到妥善的保護效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14159.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14159.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
陳孫生總幹事 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14187.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14188.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
海洋保育法 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14215.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14236.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
張一教授有提到說不是由上而下所以就是納入利害關係那可能剛剛各位夥伴針對說參與的代表其實我真的覺得因為其實我們現在討論的是一個機制我們要用什麼樣的機制進行的一個決定並不是說所以剛剛有夥伴提到說什麼所謂的空白支票是因為我們現在的確沒有針對某一個區域我現在就要化它為庇護區 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14237.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14237.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
《海洋保育法》公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14258.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14259.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14286.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14287.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
李宇童主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14308.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14333.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
大家好 我是綠色和平的李玉彤那其實剛剛很多先進都有提到就是2030 30乘30這個全球的目標也就是說我們在2030年全世界已經同意了要保護30%的海洋所以說海保法確實是可以讓我們去達到這個目標的一個很重要的解方但是其實我們有看到海保法它在這個立法裡面它是一個以棲地生態為保育的這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14334.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14334.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
最核心的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14350.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14358.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
與業的富裕觀光的發展觀光體育賽事的繁榮科學研究以及其他所有的用海人還有能源也就是說其實我覺得剛剛大家所有的發言裡面可以很清楚聽到一點就是大家對於保護海洋是沒有疑慮的是有共識的只是說在保護海洋這樣的基礎上我們還可以得到什麼樣更多的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14379.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14380.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
整體海洋保育法 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14395.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14395.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14417.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14417.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
民眾溝通與參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14442.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14464.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
全然的溝通跟提升參與的狀況下我們才能得到外溢效果的提升那另外一個就是資訊公開也就是說大家可能我們每一個群體也許有大家比較自己關心的議題或者是領域或者是地區那透過資訊公開我們才可以去撇除我們的盲點比方說 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14465.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14465.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
海洋保育法草案公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14485.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14485.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
海洋委員會代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14514.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14517.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
首先非常感謝各位委員還有各位專家學者剛剛提供了非常多的寶貴意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14530.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14531.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14558.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14581.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
這個部分目前在草案中是用審議會的機制來直接表達意見以及有信賴原則的過度條款等等那立法技術上面是不是要更適度的明文或者是在未來的執法做更細緻的一個規定那在我們各位委員的版本裡面呢也有相關的條文以及建議等等那未來在審議的時候都可以進一步的來做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14583.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14583.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
委員會總幹事 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14615.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14639.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
社會溝通、鄰居共識一直是海委會跟海保署非常持續在努力的剛剛我在報告中也提到法案的通過是建立制度的第一步這部法律是架構性的法律我們把原則性的一些機制先設計出來有了母法才有後續推動的基礎所以包括未來的施行細則或者是後續的16項執法以及審議會的具體運作等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14641.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14642.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
農業部 漁業署代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14675.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14694.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
主席各位委員還有各部會代表還有各專家學者今天最主要是審查海洋保育法的那在農業部漁業署這邊針對海洋漁業資源管理我們過去都用漁業法在進行一些漁機漁法棲地保育區的一些管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14695.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14695.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
原住民主委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14730.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14755.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
首先要特別各界對原住民族海域全力使用這樣的一個尊重這個部分真的特別來感謝那這個草案其實剛剛有很多委員有特別提到這個草案的第8條也特別就未來整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14756.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14756.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14781.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14809.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
海域管轄涉及的單位是非常多也真的很眾多所以這塊我們人民會就是用比較慎重的這樣的一個立場當然我們最終的目標還是希望能夠保障我們族人使用海域的這個權利各界都也很清楚其實我們族人的確無論是山無論是海 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14810.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14810.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14834.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14834.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
海老鼠署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14865.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14892.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
今天感謝召委安排今天的公聽會那特別感謝各部會過去合作的夥伴還有今天出席的很多專家學者我想我們這邊就海保署這幾年來進行相關的海洋保育工作做個簡單的說明那特別是剛剛我們吳副主也提到了在這幾個禮拜以來我們收到了很多各位的版本那相關的版本我們在密切的比對跟討論當中去思考怎麼樣可以協調出個最佳滿足各位的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14893.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14893.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
立法院第11會議主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14910.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14910.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14926.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14941.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
海保署組織法到今天也將近10年的時間了我們成立之後一直希望可以怎麼樣跟漁業單位合作用不同的角度去恢復台灣的海洋資源我想強調第一點那所以包括剛剛總幹事很關心的比如說波特船好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14941.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14941.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14967.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14986.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
第二點就是大家關心到很多包括原住民或漁業部分我們之前的文章文字可能著墨不足的部分我可能剛提到我們就在檢討那也稍微補充一下我們海保法在剛提出來的時候可能條文是比較多的那時候其實行政院是再三提醒我們不要跟現有的法規跌床駕屋 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14987.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14987.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
《海洋保育法草案》公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15006.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15006.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15021.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15022.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
三零三零 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15040.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15040.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
立法院第11會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15056.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15057.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15075.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15075.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15105.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15108.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
海洋保育法第19條海洋保育法第19條海洋保育法第19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15136.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15156.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
後面提到其實執法都需要經過很多的協商包括我們去年通過海洋法之後我們執法草案出來之後我們會邀請相關的厲害關係人進行討論大家都同意有共識之後我們才去做預告預告之後有公聽的程序所以這些公開透明的程序後面都會有也是依循現在的行政程序法會達到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15158.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15159.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
發言委員：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15168.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15192.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
所以剛提到其實目前的審議會機制就能夠充分納入更厲害相關團體所以剛提到關於中華百團為例好了在野生動物諮詢委員會裡面雖然沒有特別的各族群的限制但是我們現在的野生動物諮詢委員會裡面已經包括了漁業跟原住民的比例已經達到三分之一左右了 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15192.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15192.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15211.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15239.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
那最後就是想提到說我剛剛以野保法為例我今天有野保法之後開始進行調查去找出前例的保護區跟地方溝通進到審議會最後通過當初野保法花了十多年的時間那今天我們的目標其實相對單純就是希望海保法通過之後海保法只是一個制度就跟野保法有點類似只是它把它延伸到更多的海洋生態系跟海洋棲地 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15240.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15240.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
《海洋保育法草案》公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15257.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15268.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
整個地方的深窗離海的推動海洋保育教育海洋保育推廣都可以透過相關條文去達到這個法通過之後我們也方便跟行政院爭取經費去執行所以總結來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15272.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15272.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
以上報告,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15296.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15313.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
謝謝海保署署長做完整的最後的說明那如果大家還有疑慮的話我覺得事後的多溝通是必要的因為畢竟接下來就要進到逐條審查了那非常感謝所有專家學者然後所有貴賓提供的這些寶貴的意見然後因為接下來還有那個門高金樹 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15314.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15316.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
委員：王美惠 |