| IVOD_ID |
15748 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15748 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-21T08:31:19+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-21T12:16:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:44:41 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d3eeb1788be93c5d54f0709a7fb2e74833be8d109af184be4b8df7a5a05b6496e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:19 - 12:16:00 |
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1823.856 |
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1826.397 |
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報告委員會初期委員9人已足法定人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1829.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1833.664 |
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我們現在開始秘密會議請主任秘書報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
4218.407 |
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4226.769 |
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好我們現在確認全數收回以後我們請議事人員開放會場並請公報處人員開啟會場錄影畫面我們繼續開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
4245.543 |
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4267.012 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議意思錄時間中華民國113年3月20日星期三上午九時二分至十二時五十一分地點紅樓山林一會議室出席委員沈伯陽等十一人列席委員聶士保等十四人列席人員外交部部長吳釗燮及所屬人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
4269.013 |
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4279.98 |
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主席馬洲籍委員文君報告是想依宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定而邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告業務概況．並備質詢外交部部長吳釗燮報告委員盧美林等16人質詢均由外交部部長吳釗燮亞西及非洲獅師長賀忠義歐洲獅師長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
4289.265 |
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4317.991 |
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黃君耀國際合作及經濟事務司副師長林美辰人事處處長黃麗玲民事事務局局長何振環及財團法人臺灣民主基金會執行長黃玉玲等即席答覆決定已登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請外交部於二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員便附資本會委員令質定期限者從其鎖定 |
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4318.652 |
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4320.794 |
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請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處?沒有,那我們議事錄確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
4339.349 |
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4343.732 |
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我們這一次剛剛完成機密報告跟質詢跟秘密詢答現在進行的是公開報告跟質詢那因為今天國安局的業務報告採取跟以往比較不同的方式過去都是用機密報告的方式來進行那因為之前有王定宇委員跟蔡世印前委員他們有提出提案 |
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4366.367 |
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4370.792 |
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希望國安局如果在可以公開的部分應該要公開的做報告讓國人可以知道我們整體可能可以知道的這些相關訊息所以我們這一次為了很多 |
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4382.845 |
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4400.982 |
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除了依法行政以外還有包括民眾媒體關心的或者有些會認為說本席在主持秘密會議的時候會造成什麼樣的影響現在請局長說明一下剛剛在本席主持的秘密會議當中有沒有什麼危害或影響在我們會議進行的一個相關的行為 |
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4413.7 |
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4416.566 |
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簡單回答就好了,我大概是針對那個我還沒開始公開的群島 |
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4418.42 |
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4444.191 |
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我想國安局這邊會配合到外國會召委針對他的職權的行使邀請我們去裡面來做相關的業報跟專報那機密會議的部分我們會配合辦理我們尊重相關安排好 那有問題的時候我們希望都是在現場就可以直接指出來而不要在後續的時候才放話尤其是在經過很多年以後所以今天我們現在開始進行公開報告請蔡局長上台報告 |
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4459.681 |
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4481.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
謝謝主席主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家早那今天非常榮幸有這個機會協同我們國安團隊的首長到貴委員會來提報我們今年上半年度的國家情報工作暨國家安全局的業務報告那以下請就國家安全情勢的分析跟今年未來的工作重點方向進行報告第一大部分是有關於國家安全情勢分析一 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
4482.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
4497.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
國際戰事拖延加劇地緣政治的風險那二五戰事膠著那加劇了烏克蘭疲乏的一個現象那加上大國博弈也牽動了地緣安全的一個發展進而影響到國際安全跟供應鏈的穩定讓我們的國際秩序備受挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
4497.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
4520.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
第二美中恢復對話管道來管理彼此的戰略競爭關係那美中相繼來重啟他們在外交軍事等領域的一個對話的機制但是在區安全還有地緣政治的議題上雙方持續的來加大他們的角力並且各自來強化跟區友盟的一個協作所以我們可以看到美中雙方的戰略競爭的本質並沒有出現任何的一個改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
4521.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
4547.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
第三中共的金色形式嚴峻升高治理的壓力那在疫情結束之後中共的經濟發展復甦乏力那再加上美國跟歐洲等西方國家持續的來推動對中國大陸去風險化的一個政策也都嚴重的衝擊到中國大陸的整體經濟表現那中共目前現階段主要聚焦在固化中共領導人的權力基礎那相關的一個政治的一個部署也載化了 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
4548.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
4549.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第4共軍的海空擴張衝擊到區域的和平穩定 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
4563.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
4589.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
公軍在對台的聯合戰備警訊已經趨向了週期化同時也加大了對台灣的灰色地帶的襲擾公軍在經濟不振的情況之下仍然挹注了非常高額的軍費加劇對區域以及還有全球安全的一個威脅的態勢美國方面則持續的來積極協同國際的友盟進行相關的戰略的部署主要的目的就在強化民主陣營至終的能量的提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
4589.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
4608.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第五中共運用到軟硬兩手的策略來持續對台施壓中共在近期的對台工作會議以及全國的養會一方面來重申深化兩岸的融合發展但另一方面他也要求來加大反獨還有反外力的一個介入試圖透過軟硬兩手策略的操作來持續對台灣進行施壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
4609.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
4624.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第二大部分是有關於我們今年度工作的重點方向第一我們會優化戰略情勢的分析深化國際情報的合作本局會跟國際社會來分享涉中的情言的成果以及相關的反制的經驗共同來建構對中的戰略圖像 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
4626.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
4645.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第2我們會掌收中共謀台的策略提升增防延期的一個能量那本局會持續的來強化對陸的情收的部署並且協同我們的國安的團隊嚴謹我們的修正技巧來支援司法機關爭取相關的國安案件反制中共對台灣的滲透還有威脅第3我們會來精進我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
4647.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
4667.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
系統數位的韌性．擴大證訊應儲的效能．那未來我們會持續的來提升保密系統數位的韌性．跟密碼安全的服務品質．那同時也會來加強我們身為偵測．還有AI辨識的一個能量．第四我們會落實危安風險的管控．完善慶典安危的整備．那本局會持續的來統合國安單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
4667.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
4667.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
最後結語 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
4682.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
4701.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
國安團隊會持續的以潛在的視野、務職的態度、緊密的合作來發揮整體資源還有專業深入來掌搜影響我們國家安全的預警情訊完備各項安全管控還有協作的機制維護我們國家安全還有利益在這邊敬盼我們在場的各位委員先進可以持續給本局必要的指導、支持還有協助謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
4704.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
4713.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
謝謝局長那麼我們現在登記公開質詢的委員開始詢答我們請馬文君委員上台質詢謝謝主席麻煩請局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
4734.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
4735.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
好 謝謝主席 委員長局長早大家早今天其實我們人數非常多那也是這一次的會議這一屆的會期開始我們第一次有這個秘密會議那大家對秘密會議可能有特別比較不同的印象 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
4753.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
4772.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
至於在去年年底的時候吧那時候可能因為機密會議裡面的一些方式比如說要不要簽署保密協定等等那雖然那時候沒有規定因為如果說委員會大概大家也是共識的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
4773.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
4794.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
雖然在國家的法律裡面已經有規範所有的相關人員不管是公職人員也好包括民意代表也好應該要有的這些遵守的法令規定其實都有都有已經有相關的規範可是如果委員認為說應該要限制對於民意代表限制更多在對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
4797.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
4798.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
即使如果說我們的共識包括進來參與開會的時候要有一定的服裝比如說要白上衣黑長褲等等其實我們都可以配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
4817.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
4822.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那就這個部分我們想要藉這個機會因為剛剛禁閉會議也開了我們所有的現場狀況大概也是這個樣子如果有很嚴重的為師的行為我們都希望可以當場指出來因為我們看一看這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
4837.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
4841.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個臉書的資料是王定宇召委在2019年3月28號的時候他所發表的臉書這個臉書為什麼今天特別提出來是因為之前在不管政論節目也好在周刊也好很多的會聲會影說我們在精密會議的時候進進出出還有拿著本來說手機後來發現手機應該要放在外面所以又改成二哥大 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
4866.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
4884.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
老實說有本席從來沒有拿過二哥大剛剛我還問了一下祕書他的是哪一種那既然大家會有這樣子的一個疑慮的時候我們看一看王定宇委員王定宇召委那一天在這個機密會議上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
4885.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
4910.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
他所說的內容那是早上開完會他當天發布的臉書的內容今天上午定於主持潛艦國造進度專案報告採取最高等級的秘密會議進行除與會人員簽署保密文書外會議是在昨天今天會議前都由國會資安人員進行檢查會議圓滿結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
4916.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
4918.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
臺灣自製潛艦終於邁進一大步從合約式設計階段進入細部設計階段構型將採X型尾舵的3.0B版可望在2024年3月首艘潛艦下水 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
4933.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
4957.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我為什麼特別提這個當你在印象最深刻的時候早上剛開完會他當天發表的臉書資料應該是最正確的可是在經過三四年以後有很多很多的傳言因為機密會議裡面不會有錄影所以到底應該要提出什麼樣的一個證明的一個佐證 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
4959.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
4977.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以我們現在希望大家有這個共識以後以後大家就按規定來我們依法行政以後立法院就按照這樣的一個程序那尤其國安單位我想你們應該在這個部分會遵守的更嚴謹嘛對不對尤其是有委員提案的部分我們就按照這樣來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
4979.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
4992.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那接下來我想要請教的是這個十幾億的預算因為我們用一張紙帶過我們現在看到我們的公開的預算裡面我們雖然有好幾篇 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
4997.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
5017.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
國安局的預算總共大概70億左右其中秘密秘密的一個預算大概60億公開的預算有十幾億那公開預算其實我們還包含了可能一些相關的包括人員訓練買裝備設施整建等等可是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
5019.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
5043.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
說明十幾億真的太簡單所以我們希望局長以後在這個部分應該讓所有的委員尤其我們有很多新的委員是不是大家對於整個國安局現在在進行的一個方向不僅是延期因為延期有很多我們看了好幾頁這個在媒體甚至外媒其實都可以看得到我們更希望知道的是國安局的相關業務到底我們編了這些預算我們到底是怎麼運用然後未來他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
5048.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
5069.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
今年的發展重點到底是什麼應該要琢磨多一點對不對有這部分的也跟委員說明一下我記得在上一屆的立法院去年的第二會期在審查預算的時候我們針對我們公開預算的部分都有在貴委員會做非常詳盡的說明那我記得當天的詢討過程當中也對於各種預算的運用我們都有解釋相關的用途 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
5069.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
5073.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
這是公開的部分十幾億我們就看到一張紙我不知道大家看到這個部分其實可以看得到我們十幾億到底怎麼用那沒關係我現在想要請教一下局長因為剛剛我們說就公開的部分還有機密的部分其實我們大概都沒有把預算的重點發展或者我們的業務概況怎麼樣去進 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
5090.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
5108.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
做什麼樣的一個重點沒有很明確的一個說明跟報告因為剛剛機密的報告裡面也是一樣今天公開的報告也是一樣我想請教一下如果就我們國安局比如說我們有很多的像一些機密的設施或者像我們一些安全防護的一些設備等等像這些我們比較忌諱的對象或條件是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
5119.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
5146.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
對,這部分事實上在每一個年度的預算審查的過程當中我們除了剛剛有跟委員提到的在公開預算的部分會來這邊詢答解釋每一個細項的運用以外在機密報告的部分我們相關的預算也都有在貴委員會指定的會議室來進行陳列那當然能夠進去看機密預算的只有委員本人所以這部分假如委員去看了機密預算任何的項目有任何問題國安局都因為今天很多都是我們在委員會裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
5148.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
5155.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員其實就資深的大概就只有本席跟王定宇遭委所以其他的委員其實他們根本過去沒有看過機密資料也其實對預算其實並不清楚所以本來我們期待在這一次的報告裡面其實應該要做一些說明讓所有的委員都清楚了解我們國安 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
5169.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
5169.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
局長我不是要成果啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
5193.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
5196.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
你今天的業務報告你就是要讓大家知道嘛因為你花很多時間你在做研析這些研析我們從媒體看得出來本期只是先提醒就是說如果你們過去要求說要公開的循打跟報告所以你就應該讓所有委員知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
5210.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
5231.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
而不是讓大家都已經看一些相關在媒體報章都已經可以看到的這些資訊這樣子可能耗費我們國安單位很多相關的懲判人員他必須要寫這些東西結果你可以讓大家了解的少之又少這是特別提出來的部分這個部分我們希望未來可以做一些調整那就 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
5235.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
5241.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
要特別再詢問的就是說還包括是不是也請海巡署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
5245.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
5265.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
根據媒體報導17日有兩名金門的釣客搭船出海釣魚在北定島迷航漂流到大陸福建外海被大陸的海警救起在這裡我想要請教組長的是這個國人出海釣魚有沒有需要向安檢所申請登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
5266.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
5266.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
蔡明彥 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
5291.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
5313.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
暫編 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
5313.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
5321.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
就是他暗記暗記就是他已經飄到那是因為那一天的能見度不到50碼最好的狀況是200碼我們今天要探討的不是只有那一天的能見度然後因為如果這樣子的一個狀況因為所謂大家俗稱的波特船波特船他出海沒有嚴格的管制所以其實像這種波波特船其實有點像是大家認定的就是所謂的三無船 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
5342.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
5349.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我必須要更正,它跟珊瑚船完全不一樣它不是船舶,它是輔具你說的是輔具,可是它載了人嘛對不對,我們現在說你要把它當成輔具或者船舶都沒有關係可是事實上它載了人,然後都是去釣魚我們現在要談的是這個部分因為在驚嚇水域珊瑚船的事件因為它進到我們的限制水域了 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
5369.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
5373.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我們非常支持該執法的時候我們一定是海巡的後盾不管發生什麼樣的狀況依法行政其實這是對的可是我們現在在探討的是像類似這一種你要叫他去他就是什麼都沒有你說他是伏具可是他載了人那現在我們可以很確定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
5390.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
5395.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
海巡署當時大陸三無船的時候我們是依權者前往取締所以很明顯的我們是可以掌握由外向內的這些不明傳播的一個動向對不對可是如果由內向外的這個整個海域的狀況我們有掌握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
5409.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
5413.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
當然我們有我們的案記的案檢所我們都有掌握也都能夠掌握那所以像他們因為這樣子因為有人在海上漂那不管他做什麼船舶也好或者扶鋸也好他已經漂出去了那我們都不用掌握因為如果說這涉嫌到走私或者甚至有包括偷渡等等其實他也會有這一類的問題當然會有這個顧慮那像這樣我們怎麼管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
5437.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
5449.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我們一定是運用我們的岸際的雷達巡邏跟我們的紅外線或者是相關的這些高倍望遠鏡以及我們海上的巡邏的網次那他們兩位我特別再強調一遍當天是 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
5455.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
5460.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我們聽到家屬報案之後我們馬上就派船出去但是您知道50碼可以看到大概就看到那個門那邊那所以我們要尋找他很困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
5477.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
5486.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
但是一直他他個人本身也看不到光我們在島上用了很多強塑的光一直向海面打希望能夠給他沒有關係我知道我們要救援也好或者什麼樣的一個處置作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
5493.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
5497.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
在緊急狀況的時候那個我們沒有意見你們一定是專業的可是我們今天要討論的不是這個部分包括國安單位包括今天所有的情治系統的相關單位跟人員其實都在這裡我們今天要討論的是如果發生這種現象因為它是它並不是傳播可是它又是伏據那類似這樣的情況這其中兩個人本來他們已經可以回來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
5517.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
5519.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
昨年在金門二旦上兵失蹤的時候他到底是被認定是逃兵或者什麼其他的狀況因為時間的關係這個也不是你們的權責可是這一 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
5540.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
5543.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
就是不斷不斷的在發生類似的情形的情況之下這對我們整體的海域跟我們整體的周邊的這些安全會不會有什麼影響這是我們今天特別要提出來的這個部分我們到底要怎麼樣因應然後未來要怎麼樣防止或者像這樣身份特殊的人員其實他們現在後續是怎麼樣的處置時間可能沒有辦法讓你們回答我也請國安局這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
5568.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
5569.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
下一位委員請羅美玲委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
5602.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
5606.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
謝謝主席 有請國安局蔡局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
5611.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
5632.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
好謝謝主席羅文早局長早安局長您是地緣政治的專家我想您應該非常的清楚通訊跟宣傳技術的革新還有認知作戰是近代戰爭當中其實它發揮了很大的功能尤其是在烏俄戰爭當中我們發現除了軍事戰場之外我們可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
5637.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
5662.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
烏克蘭的政府媒體還有民眾開闢了一個讓全球都非常矚目的資訊戰場那像烏克蘭過去長年以來其實也是受到俄羅斯假訊息假新聞的攻擊那跟台灣現在的狀況其實是非常的類似因為台灣也是全球被假訊息攻擊非常嚴重的國家之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
5663.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
5670.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
好那像俄羅斯為什麼在戰爭的時候能做到全民在這個資訊戰場有這麼漂亮的一戰那可是呢他們在過去呢確確實實呢也被這些假訊息呢其實是束手無策的尤其是在這個亞努科維奇在當總統的時候他就認為說烏克蘭就是俄羅斯的附屬國 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
5688.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
5714.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
所以他對於這些假新聞假訊息他根本就沒有做任何的準備一直到2014年他下台了之後新政府上來才正視這個假訊息的這個問題他們花了8年的時間那其中的他們也背負了這個就是新聞自由的這個壓力關掉了三台由這個俄羅斯所投資的這個頻道等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
5717.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
5739.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
他們利用8年的時間讓烏克蘭的人民遠離這些假新聞假信息才有在戰時有這麼漂亮的一戰我想請問局長目前台灣到底針對這些假新聞假信息我們的準備到底是足夠的嗎這跟人民的國家意識有很大的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
5740.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
5755.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
對我想在這次的俄烏戰爭過程當中再次凸顯到我們自由民主開放的社會在因應境外敵對勢力的假訊息的攻擊還有認知作戰確實面臨到非常多的挑戰那就我們國家來講也高度的重視這樣的一個相關的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
5756.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
5783.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
所以在過去這幾年在法制面我想也非常感謝大院在過去這幾年通過了相關的法案讓我們政府在處理跟應處相關的假訊息的相關的作業有個法源的基礎畢竟每次涉及到假訊息的處理它都會涉及到兩個重要的辯論一個是言論自由那一個就是國家安全或社會穩定那怎麼樣在兩者之間取得一個平衡最好的方法就是到立法院來進行相關的政策或法制的討論那讓我們有更完整的法制規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
5784.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
5798.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
這大概是這幾年來政府做的第一項的努力第二項的努力是在行政部門的部分我們所建立起來的是一種即時通報的一個機制也就是透過我們的國安團隊在社群媒體上去相關的去查找可能的正義訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
5799.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
5821.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那這個正義訊息我們會依照行政院所提到的錯假害基本的原則也就是說訊息是錯誤的虛假的而且對社會是有危害的以這樣的原則來查找相關的錯假訊息有了之後我們會進行相關的即時的通報讓政府的部會可以即時來應處可以跟我們說明的是我們現在每一週大概收報到相關的正義訊息可能都有3000多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
5822.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
5841.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那在3000多件裡面我們會依照它的風險的程度來進行羅列高中低的風險程度以及相關的正義訊息有沒有在跨平台的社群媒體上去散佈那假如風險很高的話我們就會移送到行政部門來做即時的處理這部分每一個禮拜應該都有幾十件的案例在映出 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
5842.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
5867.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以第二部分跟委員說明的是除了法制的規範以外就是行政部門要建立起一個即時通報應處的機制來防範假訊息的擴散第三個部分是針對假訊息散佈的一個相關的網絡那我們會去溯源進行查找那假如相關的假訊息的散佈他在內容上有傷害到相關的一個社會的安全或是他們用的是那一種有問題的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
5868.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
5871.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
所以剛剛是從三個面向來跟委員說明一下我們現在應處假訊息以及境外敵對勢力的認知作戰非常積極的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
5887.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
5913.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
好局長如果比起烏克蘭的這個手段我們會不會比較弱會不會我們這手段會比較弱因為我們常常要說我們要尊重言論自由新聞自由等等然後當然也被了這些框住了可是我們卻因為為什麼我們會我這一兩次的質詢都會拿烏克蘭做比較因為他我在想他在近代裡面跟台灣的這個種種狀況其實是非常的類似 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
5914.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
5932.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那烏克蘭的人民也曾經因為受到假新聞假訊息的影響對政府非常的不信任我想臺灣目前也是存在相同的這個問題那可是烏克蘭政府卻是用8年的時間讓人民能夠遠離這些假訊息這個地方這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
5937.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
5960.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
好像目前剛剛那個局長你所講的三大面相好像真的也沒有辦法讓我們的人民遠離這些假訊息我們不斷的經過TikTok小紅帽等等接收到這些假新聞那如何會來杜絕這個我在想臺灣政府要來認真的來思考烏克蘭曾經這麼血淋淋的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
5961.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
5983.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這些認知作戰就擺在眼前臺灣可以來參考來思考我們要怎麼來繼續走這條路因為到目前為止本席所看到的我們受到假新聞徒害還是非常非常的嚴重甚至被國際的專家認定為我們是在全球受到假訊息攻擊最多的國家之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
5985.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
6002.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我們是不是可以來做的更多那再來局長當然你剛剛已經有提出了很多的這個我們很所謂的積極的這個做法我們來看我再像這個烏俄戰爭的時候我剛有說他們人民也好媒體也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
6004.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
6026.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
政府也好都一起打了一場非常漂亮的資訊戰好到目前為止我們是看到的這一點好烏克蘭的團結那他們是經由像這個telegram twitter facebook甚至tiktok那不斷的跟國人還有對外喊話跟傳達訊息好那他也把這些平台當作是反擊的反擊訊息的一個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
6028.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
6048.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那比如說像Telegram我有看到一份報道就是烏克蘭他們的假訊息很大部分是經由Telegram傳播給人民因為他們人民有很大的使用者結果呢他們政府就在Telegram他們設立了很多所謂的政府平台來做反擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
6049.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
6076.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我想請教一下像我們現在中央政府其實也禁止使用小紅書啊像那個抖音啊等等那可是台灣有好幾百萬的這個台灣人在使用這個抖音小紅書等等那我們中央政府又沒有辦法在這些平台上面使用所有的假新聞假訊息我們都沒有辦法在這些平台上面做反擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
6078.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
6082.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
對事實上我想委員很正確的指出來了就境外敵對勢力對我們的認知作戰他主要的作戰的目標就是要去影響我們民眾的認知 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
6100.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
6120.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
來弱化民眾對於民主社會或對於政府的一些信任感那所以怎麼樣在應處假訊息的過程當中可以建立起政府跟民間社會的一種強韌的夥伴關係也是非常的重要所以我們剛剛在說明的資料當中也提到了怎麼樣來號召全民來參加這一場所謂無煙消的戰爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
6122.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
6137.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
要如何號召?因為我們很多民眾都使用這些抖音啊小紅帽很多的這個假新聞都充斥在當中可是我們中央政府卻沒有能力進到裡面去做反駁我們的問題出在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
6138.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
6164.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我大概分兩個部分來講就這些可能會散佈虛假、錯假訊息的社群媒體平台我剛剛也跟委員說明過我們跟這些社群平台是有一個聯絡通報的機制那只要我們能夠證實相關的錯假訊息是會造成一些問題的話相關的社群媒體平台也會配合我們來移除跟下架相關有問題的帳號或資訊這是有一個一直長期在努力的一個做法第二部分是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
6166.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
6193.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
民間社會更強韌的合作關係那事實上台灣是一個多元開放的社會那也很慶幸的我們有非常活躍的民間社團以及相關的事實查核的中心或相關的NGO那他們也不斷的在提醒國人要有這種所謂對於認知作戰相關的媒體試讀的一個能力所以後續我們會政府這邊會持續的來跟民間社會在這部分持續的來加強來強化我們民眾對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
6195.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
6220.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
進外敵對勢力對我們進行認知作戰的戰略自決OK好謝謝局長那再來我還有一個問題就是說其實烏克蘭他們在這個戰爭的過程當中他們有些通訊的基礎建設其實是被破壞的那時候呢他們有跟那個這個馬斯克就是那個馬斯克他旗下的SpaceX有尋求這個斯大林的這個服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
6221.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
6243.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那如果是說我們如果台海發生戰爭的話萬一哪一天那你想嘛中共他可能第一個想要攻擊的目標是哪裡一定是我們的海底電纜阻斷我們對外的這個通訊如果到時我們也跟這個馬斯克來尋求這個Starlink的服務你想他會他會協助嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
6245.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
6259.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
事實上這部分對於緊急危難或暫時發生的通訊任性那是政府現在非常重視高度重視的一項議題所以為了來避免到可能我們的跟外離島的地下海底電纜遭到破壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
6260.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
6287.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那我們這幾年也投注相當多的資源在進行相關的韌性的一個通訊的備援的計劃那這大概有分兩個部分一個是針對相關的商業衛星通頻的擴展那這部分已經跟很多民間企業有簽署相關的協定來讓我們的商業衛星的頻道可以更豐富所以以其求別人倒不如我們自己來說嗎所以也擔心這個馬斯克的立場親中立場所以你覺得說這部分的話其實蠻危險的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
6288.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
6316.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
對沒有那就委員提到的另外一個問題是我想解釋的是就中低軌的衛星來講那事實上除了STARLINK以外國際上還有很多的廠商提供這樣的服務那過去這兩年我們數位部也跟其中的大概有兩三家的廠商針對中低軌的衛星來進行相關的接收器的部件讓我們在國家發生緊急危難跟戰事發生的時候通信韌性可以進一步的強化這些計畫都已經在推動了可能在今年部件的相關接收器都會有幾百個以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
6317.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
6320.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
目前我們沒有任何的計劃是要跟SpaceX這邊來合作我們現在都是可能我們之前看到的一些資訊可能我們還是會跟歐洲一些國家都有廣泛的接觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
6337.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
6339.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
下面我們請徐曉欣委員來發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
6374.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
6376.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
謝謝主席那我想我們有請蔡明彥局長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
6383.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
6407.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
好 謝主席 薛委員早早安 那局長我想先問一下兩岸最近的情勢跟情況呢包含是被說成是世界上最危險的地方變得更加的危險那以及呢在香港的基本法通過之後請問一下在相關情資收集的部分對我國的影響有哪些方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
6408.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
6436.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
兩個部分一個是兩岸的整體的情勢那這部分在上個禮拜的專報也跟委員說明過那中共現在對台的政策還是依循他和平統一的路線只是在和平統一的同時也增加對台的脅迫性透過複合式威脅的手段來對我們進行施壓這是第一個部分那第二部分是針對香港的基本法的部分那因為香港立法局已經通過了維護國家安全條例那預計在3月23號開始進行施行目前大概評估的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
6437.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
6437.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
對我方的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
6455.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
6480.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
也就是對於香港的自治還有香港的司法以及基本權益會產生非常大的衝擊所以可能委員也注意到昨天很多歐美西方國家針對這一部分已經提出非常多的批評對我們的影響來講因為在香港通過了這個維護國家安全條例之後他的很多的條文的細項對於所謂的間諜活動叛亂罪跟叛國罪描述並沒有那麼的細緻 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
6481.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
6509.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那未來可能會有解釋權被擴大的這種疑慮所以我們會建議假如國人到香港去進行旅遊或相關的商務的活動的話入出境的時候可能還是要注意一下因為已經有案例顯示了國人在入境香港過程當中遭到了留置約談而這個案例是在這個維護安全國家安全條例通過之前就發生了所以未來可能國人到香港去我們還是會提醒一下假如說過去曾經有公開的對大陸的一些問題做一些討論或質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
6510.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
6529.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
或是手機裏面有一些批評大陸的一些相關的信息那如果有一些國安的資訊比方說像是有透露總統的談話透露行政院長的談話或是手機裏面有一些我們的機密資料包含我們的委員等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
6529.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
6547.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那到香港去您會擔心說會有外流的情形嗎?對我們剛才在提醒說到香港去可能要特別注意到自己相關的資通訊設備有可能在進入海關的時候因為被留置約談而進行安全檢查那這部分可能要特別小心以免入境過程當中無端入罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
6547.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
6565.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
等下還會再問你這個但我想先再補問一個就是說美國印太司令部的司令阿基里他說所有的跡象表明中國會在2027年做好入侵台灣的準備在這方面所謂2027年入侵台灣他的說法國安局目前的情資顯示是如何的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
6566.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
6590.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
對於國際各方面的政府單位或研究機構有關於台海情勢的討論我們都非常的重視那針對2027年這個年份我們過去也曾經在委員會裡面跟大家報告因為2027年它本身是一個非常非常重要的有政治性跟軍事性的年份它是重要的政治年份因為它是習近平可能要不要進入到第四任任期重要的一個轉折點2027年 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
6591.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
6609.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
另外他在軍事上有重要的意義因為2027年是中共解放軍建軍100週年那習近平已經希望在這2027年能夠達成建軍百年的總目標那再配合到美方有一些情資顯示習近平希望在2027年能夠讓解放軍建立起 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
6614.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
6631.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
回到剛上一題我們談到了就是說您說呢比如說像香港基本法通過之後您會擔心說國人的手機或是一些資訊那可能在出入境的時候那會有一些外泄外流的情況那我相信如果到大陸去的話您也會做同樣的擔心對吧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
6632.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
6655.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那我想請問一下就是主席我們這邊也想要請那個調查局一起好不好今天調查局局長也有在現場好我們請是不是請王局長也一起因為上一次呢我就有問過您有關於一些大家很重視的重要的政治人物的相關影片到底是屬於de-fake或是真實流出的部分進行一些提問 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
6656.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
6668.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那但是呢局長你講說很多的是在包含是調查局或是檢調這個部分所以今天調查局長有來我要再一次追問喔我們先從比較重要的幾位開始來詢問那個請問一下這個鄭文燦副院長他 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
6673.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
6687.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這個影片齁那當時就有立法委員提出然後請調查局去調查他到底是不是身為然後有沒有所謂中共借選的問題請問調查局這個部分調查的情況是如何的怎麼後續都沒有跟國人做說明呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
6688.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
6704.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
跟委員報告有關這些政治人士他們的一些我先一個一個問好不好那個鄭文燦就好了那有關於這個鄭副院長的部分因為沒有鄭副院長只有副院長不要把那個院長一起講進來沒有院長只有副院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
6706.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
6735.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那他自己所提出來的這個部分那他有向警方來報案那所以一開始就由警方他們來受理那我們調查局也有接到那個臺北地檢署的指示來做一些的檢測那我們檢測以後我們有立刻把相關的檢測的結果我們有送給臺北地檢署那最主要是檢察官他要綜合這個卷裡面的相關的事證來做一個綜合的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
6737.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
6760.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
因為這個部分我們受限於偵查不公開必須要假官同意我們發言好 但是我問一下那如果是假的是不是就要公開啊因為如果是D fake的話那這個我們的副院長變成是D fake在外面這樣流傳對我國的形象還有對他個人還有對社會當時在選舉影響甚大那是不是如果是假的就會立刻公開呢那你沒有公開是不是大家就會覺得是真的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
6761.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
6788.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
跟委員報告因為這個裡面有涉及到其他的一些的因素什麼叫其他的一些因素比如說是不是有涉及到其他的這個刑事犯罪的部分那所以他不是一個誰刑事犯罪你是說外流的人刑事犯罪比如說這些影片它的來源是從哪裡來是不是有什麼其他的這個有偷拍啊取得啊或者是散步啊等等這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
6788.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
6807.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
可是對這個部分是刑事調查嘛有檢調來調查但是呢當時包含這個影片在我們應該是記得是司法法治委員會的時候那王豪威委員就直接拿了原件請調查局去調查真偽那請問我們只針對真偽的部分來了解說到底是真的假的呀 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
6807.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
6827.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
因為如果是假的你一定要向大家說明啊那如果是真的話那可能就要考慮當事人的想法就不一定要做說明那請問這個部分到底是真的還假的跟委員報告就是說當時影片我們立刻做的是有關於de-fake的部分是有關於有沒有這個AI身為的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
6828.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
6850.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那但是影片的真偽齁除了深偽的判斷以外也有其他的這個造假的問題齁喔好我知道我懂你意思所以D fake的部分是或不是啊一個階段一個階段來嘛有可能有其他造假但是你第一階段先針對AI生成D fake的部分去了解所以它是一個D fake AI的影片嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
6851.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
6856.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
可是如果是假的話你如果是真的我們在選舉期間遭受到我們重要的政治領袖被DFAQ AI攻擊的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
6867.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
6888.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那應該是一定要向國人知道這麼嚴重的情況那可能涉及中共的競選可能涉及更多的問題這個是屬於因為我們在講偵查不公開的時候它裡面還有包含一個部分如果對於社會有重大影響的應該要做適度的說明而不是不做說明這個是在偵查不公開的例外的條件所以我想要請問說按照您的意思我剛剛聽起來是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
6889.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
6914.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
針對DFAQ跟AI調查發現沒有DFAQ跟AI的問題但你們還要去了解還有沒有其他造假的元素像是這樣子我的解讀有錯嗎就是說除了這個AI DFAQ的檢測部分之外那甲官也要求我們來做這要求我們的鑑識科學處來做說他這有沒有被造假的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
6915.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
6933.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那因為那你們調查的又如何了第二階段我們不適合只就單一的證據然後立刻對外公佈可是因為你們調查好久了欸對那因為案件是在檢察官的手中那這個部分可是案件在檢察官手中可是調查真假是在你們手中啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
6934.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
6961.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
對,我們是接受檢察官的指揮我們來進行這個相關的證據的檢查那這個部分我大概懂了那第二個部分是有關於我們的政治人物有沒有去錄總統跟院長的音這個因為當時傳出來說羅志正也是我們國防外交過去資深的召委他去錄音錄了蔡英文總統跟行政院蘇院長那這個是涉及到很大的國安問題上一次我也問局長了請問一下這個錄音檔有沒有變照 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
6963.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
6983.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
跟委員報告這一件也是羅前委員他也是在這個事情發生以後他很快的就來跟我們新北處報告來提告我們新北處受理以後我們也報請檢察官來指揮偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
6984.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
6992.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那這個AI的這個有沒有DFAG的這樣的一個情況這個哪有DFAG我是說錄音檔欸你不要一直看左邊那張圖好不好我問錄音檔 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
6995.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
7013.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那個錄音檔的部分那個音源的部分我們有檢測出來那檢測出來一樣我們也是交給台北地檢署有沒有剪接變照有沒有變照總統的因為今天是國安的因素我們才在乎那個刑事歸刑事他們有沒有誰犯不犯法那個歸他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
7014.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
7037.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們要知道的是說我們有沒有國安的疑慮這個是行政行政跟檢調司法這是兩塊所以在行政上面這有沒有維持他有沒有去就是變成一個國安問題他去他去偷錄總統的音還是說有什麼中共啊幹嘛幹嘛的去造假這件事情這兩個是完全不一樣後續是完全不一樣的方向我問你是哪一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
7038.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
7064.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
跟委員說明有關於這個案子是臺北地檢署的檢察官在指揮偵辦當中那除了這個錄音檔有沒有被defect之外那錄音檔本身他的這個內容也是一樣在做檢測那除此之外我們也傳喚了這個相關的人士我們也有來進行一個你傳喚了相關人士應該不是傳喚蔡總統或是蘇院長所以是羅志政委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
7065.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
7066.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那你們調查的部分怎麼樣啊?你們的部分啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
7083.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
7109.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我一再的跟委員說明就這個部分我們還是尊重檢察官但是如果說有去變造了我國總統的錄音這麼大的事件的話他就會在偵查不公開以外還有一個例外叫做要適度對社會做說明所以我可不可以解讀成說你們覺得這個是要進到司法程序是看誰有罪誰沒罪所以其實實際上你們調查出來就沒有什麼剪不剪接的問題也沒有什麼造不造假的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
7110.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
7122.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我相信檢察官在偵查終結之後會對外說明我不曉得要多久最後一個問題問一下就是說這幾位啊我們那個調查局有約談哪一些人了 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
7124.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
7147.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
像這個羅先生這一件啊是本人當事人約談他趙天寧有約談嗎這個趙天寧的部分啊目前我們是先把相關的證據收集齊全以後啊送給蔣老闆會約談嗎不知道如果蔣老闆對蔣老闆只是我們鄭文燦副院長約談嗎他本人他就有提告OK好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
7166.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
7184.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
下一位請我們王定宇委員上台質詢好謝謝主席麻煩局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
7192.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
7218.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
好謝謝主席王委員早局長早本來我們今天早上還有蠻多問題要問但是我很遺憾馬文君委員還在用老一套的烏龍的烏賊戰術要來轉移他自己被高檢署偵辦泄密叛國那只能說他是前驢技窮讓你捲入這個事情我覺得浪費國家資源不過我們還是要說清楚不過我們一樣他不在好我希望轉播可以弄清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
7219.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
7235.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
第一個2019年的潛艦機密會議當時也許馬文俊委員忙進忙出沒有注意上課沒有聽當時的召集人黃曙光上將他特別報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
7236.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
7239.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
當時採訪的記者好幾位現在還在會場內我們就在外面我一開頭第一句話就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
7257.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
7283.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
什麼都不能講但是X委託有授權可以說所以我們就說採取X委託全球X委託都沒有在列機密的那又怕這樣還不夠我還怕字太小我還放大可惜當事人不在這裡有一張海軍的公文海艙計畫也就是潛艦國造計畫裡面的安全管制計畫書載明X委託從頭到尾都沒有列為機密公項 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
7287.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
7310.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
現在因為泄密韓國被高檢署偵辦二哥大的使用剛才在巡大過程各位媒體記者在看直播應該聽得到前後矛盾啊那證明他就是有用嘛他只是不曉得人家叫二哥大嘛當時怎麼沒有人制止當時海軍的聯絡人跑到他旁邊就現在林柱英委員坐的位置去跟他講不能用怎麼會沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
7312.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
7337.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
為了模糊自己被泄密偵辦有沒有罪我都不講基於同事和諧我很少來這邊講這個事情就讓高檢署去偵辦有罪就有罪沒罪就沒罪被告自證清白就好了可是哪一個老一套已經澄清過而且完全烏龍的烏賊手段想要轉移在偵辦當中身為泄密叛國的被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
7339.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
7360.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
不僅不迴避機敏度高的外交國防委員會還被國民黨推舉為召委這不是墮落嗎怎麼好意思在那邊講陳永康上將當召委很適合啊徐曉新當召委也很適合啊每個人都可以當召委在偵辦中不好意思不要扯到我們其他人啊謝謝在偵辦中 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
7362.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
7390.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
被偵辦中的人自己就去對司法交代就好了所以有關潛艦X尾舵是否屬於機密根據海軍海商計畫安全管制計畫書根據當時機密報告的黃曙光的報告內容以及根據當時我們跟媒體講這個是唯一授權可以講因為它無設機密它不是機密工項如果不在言論免責保護傘下的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
7391.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
7407.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那就說一次告一次去外面講不要在那邊模糊焦點國家利益國家安全何其重大我們在那邊要論的是國家政治而不是個人適不適合坐在那個位置上所以回到我們正辦要談論的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
7408.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
7428.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
局長近期的南海局勢因為最新的局勢發展是4月11號拜登要召集美日非三國元首高峰會議這個高峰會議的主題是什麼你沒有講過嗎對他們這一次大概會針對南海的狀況來進行意見的交換因為特別是在人愛交流他們認為南海的問題是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
7430.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
7452.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
對他們認為中國在當地的一些挑釁的行徑已經破壞到區域的核穩所以其實這個每日非的4月11號的三國的元首高峰會議它裡面其實就一個主題就是中國在南海惹是生非擴張主義灰色地帶手段導致區域緊張局勢升高嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
7453.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
7479.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那我們管局有沒有掌握到美國有提出美非共同防禦條約有他們有在討論這個問題那美國也有重申他們的立場那有必要的話他們會啟動美非共同防禦機制他是不是有提到說如果他的船艦菲律賓的船菲律賓的飛機菲律賓的領土遭受攻擊的話美國會出手對這應該是他們接下來峰會也會釐清的一個重點對因為美國如果出手根據美日 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
7480.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
7499.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
安保條約每日要同盟同進同出嘛所以當然這在台灣周邊我們太平島也在那裡是我們應該要關切的局勢發展那每日飛又影響到台灣的安全非常重要北邊宮古海峽以上是日本的西南諸島與那國島離我們非常近現在有F35的機場 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
7501.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
7523.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
南邊呂宋島菲律賓距離高雄400公里最近一個小島離台灣也大概100多公里那美國在那邊有大概呂宋島有4個基地在那邊所以美日菲跟台灣的安全議題很有關聯所以在這個時候南海的局勢看起來是中國成為推動升溫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
7524.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
7526.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
所以我在講的意思就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
7554.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
7574.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
事實上太平島是我們國家的領土無庸置疑所以除了長期的聲索權以外近幾年也沒有聽到有人在挑戰我們實質擁有控制太平島事實上那個本身不是議題所以這個時候如果讓代表國家的元首去太平島或者政治部去太平島你認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
7577.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
7605.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
到那個地方對區域局勢的和緩或緊張會造成什麼效果對我想我在早上進入會場之前媒體朋友也有在學問這個問題那就國安局的關切的主要有兩個重點第一個就是區域政治的情勢是比較複雜化的蔡總統到太平島去會不會被國際社會解讀是在激化當地的緊張情勢而這樣的解讀會不會傷害我們的外交利益這是第一個部分要評估的你這一點我先停一下所以如果我們到那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
7606.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
7631.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
按照過去的慣例菲律賓一定會提抗議一定會因為上次我們去看的時候菲律賓的島在距離500到800公尺就看到了他會提抗議而美日菲現在是同盟在對抗中國的擴張主義所以當菲律賓對台灣抗議的時候等於把我們國家推到一個我坦白講不應該的位置上對這也是我們剛剛講到外交利益一定要做妥善的評估對因為那是我們的領土可以去 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
7632.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
7635.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
對 那第二個部分我們評估的重點是在於南海情勢的軍事化 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
7651.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
7675.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
所以國際社會對於南海地區的自由航行權跟自由飛越權有非常多的關注而會提出這樣的關注就代表很多各國的基建在穿越南海的海空域的時候都會遭到特定國家的干擾所以我們必須要評估在整個航程過程當中總統的飛航安全跟維安的問題也是國安局關注的重點這個昨天我問外交部他沒辦法回答我請教局長據了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
7678.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
7695.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
美國澳洲那邊有表示說他們的飛機船艦在那邊航行的時候有遭受中共軍機騷擾跟攔截那我們固定運補太平島的C13棟或者是海巡的這個船艦有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
7696.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
7705.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
對中共在南海地區他們只要發現到有其他國家的船艦或飛機進入到他們的宣稱的海空域大概都是採取一些逢艦必跟的原則所以我們的船艦飛機有沒有被跟過 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
7721.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
7743.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
相關的通報過去曾經有這樣的案例有這樣的案例我們的腰山洞也好我們的海巡艦曾經有被跟過就對了對中共對這部分他們現在因為跟委員說明一下中共在這個南海地區他的基建的活動非常的頻繁以3月份來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
7744.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
7759.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
整個3月份到目前為止來講平均飛機的部分大概每一天每一天都有6架到20架次那在海面的船艦的部分大概平均每一天都有20艘所以我們可以跟那個區域當然很大了他還有600艘到700艘的海上民兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
7767.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
7793.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我剛跟委員報告是海軍船艦跟海警的船艦沒有包括海上民兵對你如果把海上民兵放上去那個量很大我最後把一個題目要處理我們特勤人員我們憲兵跟特勤中心這個保險我從第9屆第10屆推了好一段時間我現在發現一個很遺憾的事情我們原來是這樣子憲兵當時他們的意外險找得到地方保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
7794.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
7812.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
然後我們明明要求保費的金額要到上限我們希望每一個人都不要出事但出事的時候我們希望理賠的金額要達到我們國家的上限嘛可是特勤中心每次保都保得很低後來在上一屆我們提出質詢之後呢你們就要調成一樣那現在荒謬在哪裡你知道嗎憲兵齁憲兵在2023年以前122萬一樣700人平均保費1600 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
7823.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
7824.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那在上個會期審查預算的時候委員你再次提醒我們這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
7851.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
7851.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
蔡明彥率 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
7882.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
7909.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
你們為什麼漲了三倍保費報委員向委員報告一下因為我們在112年以前我們的保費大概都100多萬就可以承保但是經過這幾年疫情的影響各保險公司出行對就不要隨便老是什麼事情都栽贓給疫情2023年到2024年也不過隔了一年而已我跟你講10%20%30%好不好你漲三倍向委員報告因為我們在去年11月有沒有這個情形這些保險公司跟你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
7910.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
7922.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
特勤中心一個人均編了這麼高特勤中心人均編這麼高那你以前才一千六太便宜了你要漲價否則我不給你標有沒有這個情形包委員絕對沒有那個就聯合壟斷行為絕對沒有因為我談一談因為時間關係第一個把到最高上限這是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
7929.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
7951.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
但是也不因為我要保到最高上限保費從1600塊爆增到5300塊平均每人然後投保金額從122萬漲到560萬本來是希望我們的特勤中心保障一樣拉到最高結果沒想到現在是把憲兵的調到跟特勤中心一樣貴然後大家來飆 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
7952.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
7974.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這是不對的如果保險公司為了我們特勤跟憲兵我們這些弟兄姊妹的安全這樣漲3倍而且是如果不漲他們不來投標這是聯合壟斷行為行政院該處理啊怎麼可以這樣子那你剛才講的COVID-19的關係2023年到2024年也不過就這樣一個跨年而已漲3倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
7976.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
7982.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
目前我們今天收到臨時提案一案那待會等到賴世保委員質詢完畢以後休息五分鐘休息過後處理臨時提案接下來我們請下一位是林楚英委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
8016.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
8024.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
謝謝主席 主席有請我們國安局蔡局長以及我們海巡署的周署長蔡局長還有我們周署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
8026.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
8026.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
謝謝主席 林委員早 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
8056.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
8067.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
首先呢我想要詢問的就是今天早上其實有委員關心到就是有關於又有兩個金門的釣客到中國去遭到海警巡獲之後發現其中一個人是現役軍人啦那從報導當中看不出來這個軍人是我們透露了身份還是對方發現因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
8075.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
8087.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我必須講剛剛其實前面幾位委員都有特別提到那就是中國如果過去像我們小時候常常講的這個保密防諜人人有責因為小心匪諜就在你身邊這是過去的蔣總統們不斷的提示的 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
8091.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
8103.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
但是隨著這個時間的演進也不知道為什麼好像大家現在越來越忘記可能斐迭就在你身邊前面委員特別提到的就是中國不斷的侵入包括林中兵他也曾經在2017年就講說這個島內的內應啊不見已成啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
8108.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
8114.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那麼現在的情況是越來越嚴重還是其實國安局有掌控我就要詢問這個軍人的身份是我們告知的嗎還是是對岸就發現說這兩個調客當中其中一個現役軍人那如果是這樣就不得了囉表示說現在在場的每一位我們的國軍弟兄包括你我在內我們的身份顯然對方都在掌控之中這是不是國安問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
8135.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
8136.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那所以消息是怎麼出來的? |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
8146.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
8173.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
因為我覺得這個是有種特別的是要升溫這個彼此之間的衝突關局有掌握嗎?我想可能對岸在處理這個案件過程當中也有針對一些兩位釣客的背景跟他們做一些詢問那這部分因為還在接洽當中我今天早上也跟媒體朋友在說明目前海巡署跟對口針對兩位要接送回金門的部分正在做密切的協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
8174.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
8186.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那我們希望不用節外生枝喔讓這件事情可以盡快的來好本期要提醒的就是從珊瑚船的事件中國不斷的去拉高要把這個所謂責任丟到我們的頭上丟到海巡的頭上那麼陸陸續續有事件發生的時候比如我們都沒有證實他是軍人軍人身份為什麼會給了媒體是哪邊講的是中國講的如果是中國講的就像我講的這不得了表示說任何一個阿兵哥他都知道他是軍人喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
8202.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
8217.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那麼再來是他如果刻意釋放這個消息是不是要拉高這樣的情勢如果中國現在就是要所謂灰色作戰的話那麼我希望相關的單位能夠都能密切的去關注好嗎另外一個也是新聞的即時訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
8220.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
8234.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
請問局長有收到在在一個多小時之前中國已經發布了航行警告南海海域進行軍事演習您有收到這個訊息嗎?早上進來有稍微看到但細節我還沒有時間去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
8235.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
8256.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
好我來念一下他是發佈了3月21號8點到18點南海部分海域進行軍事練習然後禁止進入3月21到23的每天早上8點到16點南海部分的海域還會進行射擊演習言下之意他們在進行軍演的時候也就是靠近的船隻 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
8258.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
8269.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
接下來可能都有可能不論是航空器或者是非固定航班的船隻都有可能被盤查或者是有意外喔那就您來說您怎麼來看中國在這個時候宣布了南海的演習 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
8274.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
8301.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
對中國我想他們不定期都在南海地區有劃設相關的進行區做相關的演訓或火炮的試射那因為我早上一早就到立法院來還沒有針對這一次的進行區的細節包括它的範圍地點以及可能的超遠的目的是什麼來做進一步的研判那假如有相關的資訊我會後再跟委員做進一步的說好沒有問題我想這兩天吵得最兇的就是國民黨的委員召委排了我們國防外交委員會現在在 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
8304.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
8327.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
5月16號要登上太平島當然對於主權的維護對於第一線官兵的所謂的訓練或者是相關的這些鼓舞或是加冕或是提振士氣本席都非常同意但是現在可以看得出來是這樣的一趟旅行應該不能講旅行叫考察 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
8328.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
8355.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
上登島之後會不會引發更多的衝突國安團隊在面對剛剛我告訴你的最新的訊息之後局長你怎麼來看對我想我剛剛也在跟王定宇委員做這方面的說明就國安局來講第一個我們會關注的是地緣政治的複雜度總統的登島會不會被解讀成是在激化緊張的情勢有沒有對我們的外交利益產生影響第一部分第二部分是因為當地已經高度的軍事化了 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
8355.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
8357.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我的詢問就是如果說現在中國已經在南海地區發布軍演的同時 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
8376.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
8403.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那麼現在不在航班內出現的航班或是船班又或者是他們認為意料之外的人中國有沒有可能藉此軍演來進行更多節外生枝的工作包括盤查訊問因為剛剛我特別為什麼用金門的這個事情來講就是當金門因為三無船的事件發生衝突之後我想署長在後面就知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
8403.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
8410.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
中國的海警強勢的就會介入來對於一般的漁船來做盤查那麼同樣的現在中國的這樣的軍演發布之後你怎麼來看有沒有可能他也會上飛行器來做攔截又或者是船隻來做攔截 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
8424.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
8441.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這應該分兩個部分來講一個部分是今天早上宣布的進行區的部分那這部分我剛剛跟委員說明了我們要確認一下它的地點位置大小以及相關的進行區的目的這要釐清二來是第二部分在相關的海域的活動中國會不會在特定的時間點 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
8441.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
8466.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
又劃設了其他的進行區來強化它在當地的所謂的管轄權對於過往的船隻或基建來進行相關的干擾那這個我們也要注意所以大概用這兩個部分來跟委員解釋一下所以言下之意這是一個突發的新的狀況在您來詢答之前您只是稍微知道但是進一步的細節您是不知道的還要評估的但是就表示其實它是有危險性存在包括是不是讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
8467.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
8474.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
小英總統上到太平島又或者是包括立法委員上登島這些都其實有 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
8475.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
8502.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
他必須要在評估的可能性危險存在我想就今天的這個畫設進行區的這個個案今天的個案因為一般進行區都會有它的時間點這個個案跟我們剛剛委員討論到的委員或是總統要不要登島有沒有直接關係我們要繼續來注意但是不能排除的是未來要是有相關的登島活動中國隨時都可以畫設一個進行區來加強它在當地海空域的一個活動那這個部分我就要特別小心了 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
8502.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
8530.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
好所以局長對於今天突如其來在昨天訊息這兩天訊息傳出之後中國就發布軍演那麼就您過去以往的經驗他想要透露什麼樣的訊息給外界因為這個是一個公開發布的訊息嗎當然除了安全警示之外這樣的一個時機點他所傳達對於台灣的安全維護上面又或者是對於國安單位怎麼研判為什麼選在這個時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
8531.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
8556.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
對我想中國一直希望能夠在南海地區出現他的一個軍事上的一個影響力那這也是為什麼長期以來他在南海地區的軍事部件越來越積極那不只是化設相關的進行區他在相關的島礁建立了人工島礁也開始移動相關的軍事設備進駐甚至還有可以讓各種軍機起降的機場跑道有三條那這代表整個區域安全的情勢是比較複雜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
8556.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
8577.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那中國在這個過程當中可能要負擔很大的責任去挑起南海的高度的軍事化言下之意就是中國他想要在他現在想要把觸角延伸的海域當中宣示他的軍事肌肉或者是他的勢力範圍也把南海內海化是那他要在挑釁的過程當中台灣適合這個時候去插一腳然後摻和進去嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
8580.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
8606.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
對,所以我剛剛也提到了在評估過程當中我們第一個評估的重點就是區域的地緣政治非常的複雜任何的動作可能都會被外界來解讀成我們在激化當地的緊張情勢要非常的小心有沒有影響到我們的外交利益好,最後一點點時間我想這個香港的基本法第23條通過之後那麼當然大家都在關注說是不是香港就變成跟中國一樣包括國人到香港去的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
8607.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
8630.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
是不是也跟附中國一樣美國的媒體特別說在這個基本法的第23條通過之後做出具體煽動意圖的作為或是發表具體煽動意圖來分裂國家的最高是可以監禁7年如果涉及勾結境外勢力還可以判10年我們都知道中國從來不鬆口台灣就是他的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
8631.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
8642.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
如果是這樣的話是不是代表未來國人去香港的時候你過去曾經在臉書在社群軟體你講過任何對中國大不敬意只要沒有宣誓說兩岸一家親我們都是中國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
8644.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
8673.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那我可能去了你就要小心因為可能這個就是意圖或者是具體煽動文字判7年啊那所以就現在國安團隊的評估是不是台灣人去香港跟去中國一樣危險因為我要強調的就是現在其實在網路上因為這個疫情打開之後很多人也打算到鄰近的國家鄰近的地區去旅行香港是其中之一你們現在怎麼來判官 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
8674.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
8689.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
對我想香港國安法制的內地化是一個非常重要的一個發展的趨勢那委員剛剛有提到維護國家安全條例已經通過了是打算在3月23號來開始施行那我們剛剛也跟其他委員有報告到因為他的行程非常的重 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
8689.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
8694.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我們會特別來提醒國人假如要入境香港的話一定要特別注意到自己的人身安全在入境的過程當中要避免到被留置或盤查 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
8711.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
8737.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那也要注意到自己過往有沒有一些像委員所提到的曾經批評中國大陸的政治經濟的情勢或曾經在自己的手機裡面有留下相關批評中國大陸的訊息入境的時候要避免到手機在留置檢查過程當中被發現這樣的問題一定要特別的小心也利用這個機會謝謝委員提出這個問題我們來對國人做必要的警示那讓國人瞭解到相關的可能的風險避免到入境香港之後被無端入罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
8738.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
8759.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
好其實這個部分對於在言論自由的台灣很多人可能無法想像但是對於中國來說現在香港就是中國其中勢力的延伸是非常明確的尤其是3月19號通過的基本法第23條已經明確的把這種所謂任何的煽動的文字甚至於就是你只要不講 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
8760.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
8761.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
下一位我們請紅森漢委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
8796.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
8816.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
請蔡局長有請蔡局長好謝謝主席洪委員長局長好吼那我想先請你看一下這張投影片喔這個這張投影片裡面照片的這位女士喔你知不知道這是誰然後這在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
8817.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
8838.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
對他是那個俄國的反對人士的夫人是他是這個納瓦尼的遺孫這個他的夫人那這個照片當然他的位置是在這個俄羅斯駐柏林大使館的這個海外的投票館那這當然我想大家都知道這禮拜其實俄羅斯進行總統的選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
8841.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
8861.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這位反對派的領袖的遺孀其實也現身在柏林的大使館當然他其實是在參與反普丁的這個政府投票的這個抗議的行動局長我想請問在國際案例上面為什麼我們會把海外的投票所設在大使館 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
8863.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
8891.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
一般其他國家的做法會把投票處所放在自己的大使館或館處的話比較能夠有一個安全的一個投票環境比方說像這張照片這張照片其實就是波蘭駐韓的大使館在2014年的時候這個歐洲議會投票的時候他設的這個選舉廂這個當然是要讓我們這個讓他們在韓的波蘭公民可以在這個不在一起投票的時候來行使這個投票權 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
8892.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
8914.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那這個用意當然我想大家是很清楚我們當然是為了這個保持投票的秘密也包括是維持投票的自由的意志所以這個局長我們再看下一張照片這個這張照片其實看得非常非常的觸目驚心這張照片其實我們看到這個報導其實說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
8916.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
8929.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
有居民抱怨這是在這是烏克蘭被佔領的4個州在舉行的投票他們抱怨說有親俄的人士其實是在武裝士兵下陪同強迫民眾來投票這是我們看到外電的消息裡面看到這個訊息局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
8932.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
8956.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我這邊想請教因為接下來立法院可能也會來審不在籍投票的問題所以不在籍投票裡面我們看到幾種方式包括我們看到所謂移轉投票包括特赦投票所包括通訊投票包括境外投票局長你覺得在這些這幾種不在籍投票裡面哪一些相對比較可以確保選民的自由意志 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
8956.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
8978.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
事實上各種的不在籍投票特別是在境外來投票他都有他一定的風險存在那委員剛剛有特別提到的包括到通訊投票電子投票跟特色投票所交應要來做比較的話特色的投票所是一般國家比較常採取的方式但是還是要注意到郵帶郵寄相關投票的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
8980.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
9001.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
上一張上一張好這個是來自立法院法治局其實國外不在籍投票制度研究的這個議題的研析報告裡面我們其實也看得出來其實移轉投票基本上跟親自的這個投票過程跟我們現在的狀況它的優點就是說它的確保包括它的可信任度其實是最高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
9002.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
9017.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
通訊投票上我們其實這個法規上面的延期立法院法治局的延期也說到他其實可能在身份識別跟運輸選票的風險其實是會大幅提升的這其實大概是可以看得出來他的這個安全性跟能夠確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
9019.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
9042.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
民眾的自由意志的程度其實是相對比較低的所以這個局長我想請教因為我們現在看到包括行政院的版本裡面這個不在籍投票的部分當然我們現在是鎖定在移轉投票但我們現在也在看到某些現在例如某些委員提出來的版本裡面他其實是有開放境外的通訊投票的 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
9043.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
9050.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
所以這個局長我想請問我們有沒有辦法在北京跟上海來派駐選務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
9053.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
9081.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
對我想針對相關的一個法規的立法程序的討論我們都尊重各種的意思的呈現那就國安的角度來講我們還是會特別提醒到的我好像在上次跟委員做說明的時候也曾經提醒到這一點因為中共畢竟在我們的立法院通過的反滲透法來講定義上比較像是一個境外的敵對國家或境外的敵對勢力所以假如我們的開票所有這種想法要設置在對岸的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
9082.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
9103.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那我們認為相關的風險評估要非常非常的小心怕民眾的投票的自由意志會受到當地的一個影響雖然我們接下來確實但是他可能不是在外交國防委員會會在其他的委員會來勝利那我們也很希望其實國安局應該把你們針對不在籍投票裡面各種投票方式最專業的評估我不講黨派最專業的評估針對風險針對國家安全的角度針對怎麼確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
9112.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
9127.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
選民的自由意志的這個保障的這個部分其實我覺得要提供專業的意見來讓到時候我們在做法案審議的時候有一個清楚的專業從安全上面考量的參考我覺得這部分很重要對嗎有必要假如立法院有邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
9128.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
9157.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
國安局來提供相關的諮詢的意見的話我們會全力的來配合做更完整的分析我覺得局長你要做這個準備然後我就會把所有相關的評估準備好我們把所有包括國外的情境我們都把它研究好這不是不講黨派只是純粹就從國家安全的角度來給專業的意見讓委員在審查的時候有一個清楚的這個專業的依詢好不好這沒問題對這是我們的工作好那下一個我想請教局長這個我想請海巡署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
9159.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
9160.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
州署長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
9180.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
9181.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
是,正確 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
9204.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
9214.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我們其實為了要降低人員的風險跟提高救援的效率其實我們海巡組現在也開始建立所謂的無人機隊再來做協助對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
9215.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
9239.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那其實在這個3月16號也就是上週我們在媒體上面看到其實看起來海巡署要出動這個無人機來參與搜救這個中國的漁民因為漁民翻覆要去搜救的狀況我們看到新聞蠻大的說到我們可能要出動無人機了那我想請問署長那這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
9240.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
9242.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
任務成效的評估如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
9258.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
9275.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我們這次確實有將我們金馬鵬分署的兩架多旋翼的無人機有帶到現場但是很可惜因為海象的影響以及天后的影響並沒有讓它起來所以我們準備要用無人機結果帶到了現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
9279.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
9289.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
但是因為天后的原因所以沒派上用場我這樣理解有沒有錯誤那我想署長為什麼沒有出動我們其實有買啊25公斤級的這個無人機它的飛行距離長 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
9291.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
9292.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
特別跟委員說明一下目前我們第一代的 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
9312.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
9329.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
無人機的區隊只建立在北中南東五個分署以及加上艦隊分署金馬棚分署並沒有建立為什麼沒有建立看起來現在有很多的需求我們當初考量就是因為金馬地區他是一個非常狹窄的水域 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
9332.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
9353.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這個空域跟相關的要求都比較精準那也比較敏感所以我們希望在我們北中南東以及間諜分屬我們在使用一段時間之後我們在我們的技術各方面精準了之後我們在陸續的評估之後看是否可行再前推到金門跟馬祖 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
9353.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
9373.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
雖然我現在要跟你討論的事情是說當然我們這一次當然我現在不是說我們無人機只是來救中國的漁民也許有未來有機會也許會救到台灣的漁民就是不分的但是就救援來說的話當然我聽得出你剛才講的意思是我們也許在國安上面或者等等上面會有一些相關的考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
9374.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
9393.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那是不是在使用這個相對比較大型的無人機可是我自己是希望說你應該可以跟國安局我覺得針對這個事情再好好的討論因為如果我們購買購置了這個大型的無人機而且它其實包括它的能力也比較好它的這個它的移動的抗風能力都比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
9394.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
9419.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那到底在什麼樣子的情境下面怎麼比較彈性靈活的情境下面我們適合來使用而不會讓其實這看起來像這樣的救援不管是救大陸或救以後也許會救到台灣的人其實我覺得這對這個形象都相對是好的尤其是我們看到現在中國正在這個灰色地帶的這個戰略裡面各種不同的侵擾我們其實做這件事情但同時我更在意的事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
9420.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
9435.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
如果我們都要派人去救其實就像我一開始說的他是有人生風險上面的安危的所以我們當然希望如果未來可以派無人機去能夠盡量派可是你現在有這個國安上面的疑慮我自己是覺得你看相比於中國他們的做法的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
9436.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
9456.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我覺得我們是不是可以有更靈活的思考來去想說來去思考我們無人機使用的時機跟時刻跟試用的狀況而不會讓我們買了花大錢買了這個東西結果卻好像有點無用武之地那我覺得這部分這個蔡局長你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
9457.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
9473.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這部分我們國安團隊幾個部會有在做相關的研議那委員說的沒有錯就無人機來講他在進行海上的巡弋搜救甚至收證可以發揮非常好的功能那這部分我們來做整體的評估看資源分配上怎麼樣來做處理因為現在看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
9474.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
9488.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
今年看起來其實在這個兩岸互助救援的案件數其實就增加了蠻多當然這是不是中共刻意為之的這種我們不知道可是救援案件數看起來增加也許接下來還會有其他的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
9489.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
9515.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
恐怕我正認為只會多不會少所以我是希望國安局跟我們海巡署能夠共同研議怎麼樣更讓無人機更好更適切的使用更靈活的然後來取代或者是來盡量的來協助我們用過去用直接的人員去可能要承擔一定風險這樣子的狀況我覺得這部分我自己是希望說我看到欸那我們說要用無人機但為什麼沒用 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
9515.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
9517.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
蔡議長最後想提醒一件事情是當然香港的議題香港現在在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
9546.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
9567.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
他們23條的立法的問題23號會開始施行他的施行的狀況怎樣他有很大的財量權我們其實知道有非常非常多民主派的朋友其實現在全部都被港府跟中共目前其實關押在監獄裡面我覺得要非常非常審慎的來提醒台灣的民眾赴港 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
9569.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
9569.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我們不知道﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
9593.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
9617.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
但每一個案例的發生其實對我們來說都造成了國安上面的風險或者是處理上面的困難我的意思是說我覺得我們要非常非常的嚴正的告訴臺灣的民眾跟臺灣的社會怎麼來應對這個狀況我覺得不是只是發一個新聞稿就可以的好不好這部分我們會繼續來收集相關的案例那也會做必要的揭露讓國人有更方便更高程度的一個警覺好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來請賴世保委員指詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
9631.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
9636.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
謝謝主席一起各位先慶有請蔡局長請蔡局長謝謝主席來委員長局長委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
9647.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
9660.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這個我看昨天的外交部長跟今天的蔡局長都說現在總統不宜去太平島可是我這裡就下一個標他不去太平島叫上全入國我們看到兩個時機 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
9664.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
9677.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
都應該蔡英文總統要表態的那就是在應該是2016年的時候國際的法庭海牙判了太平島是礁不是島這個讓我們的漁民的權益啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
9682.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
9699.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
從200海浬限縮到12海浬影響非常大的雖然耐斯的判決是針對這個兩兆啦哈菲律賓跟老共之間他的一個算權力問題在那裡糾葛可是太平洋是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
9701.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
9718.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
所以這個這個我們的外交部的吳部長昨天哇在這裡垮垮談說臺北島主權是我們要這個主權您就是絕對我們的可是呢我們不要製造困難因為現在南海戰云密布 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
9719.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
9735.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以不要遭受困難是這樣子嗎我跟委員先說明一下那個2016年的國際仲裁出來之後我們有非常嚴正的聲明我們不接受那個仲裁的結果而且仲裁的結果也不適用到台灣不是聲明你也最少你們要去一下嘛結果我們蔡總統也不去沒有人去無名顧船內政部長去過 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
9742.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
9761.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
然後我再跟你講第二個就是最近的海巡署不是海巡署這邊太平島的碼頭花了十幾億十七億啊蓋好了就落成去一下非常好啊你們講喔請問你你是不是你是不是同意太平島是我們的領土是吧我們的領土我們有主權對不對好算不算是我們的家 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
9767.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
9772.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
對我們的領土一部分我們的家對吧我們的家對吧現在局長兩岸如果發生打仗你人在海外請問你要不要回來當然對啊當然要回來啊是不是人不分男女老幼都要回來啊為台灣打仗啊是不是結果說喔不行喔台灣海峽現在在你秘部喔我不要去喔真叫困擾喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
9794.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
9797.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這個邏輯不通啊這個邏輯不通啊這個邏輯不通啊這個邏輯不通啊這個局長這種邏輯不通這個大家都了解嘛因為美國不要我們去嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
9810.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
9812.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那你跟委員說明一下我們對太平島主權的經營這幾年著力非常的深 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
9839.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
9868.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
你說你家裡你經營多漂亮多漂亮你從來沒有到你家去我們在當地是只有駐守我們海軍的官兵總統去就不一樣了所有的武器系列都不一樣了我跟你講馬頭設施也都完全的來做更新所以這個到底的兩個機會都不去根本就是頂不住美國的壓力馬英九頂得住蔡英文頂不住美國同時都有壓力因為美國希望你們都不要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
9869.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
9871.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那如果說啊這去的話互惹老公那就簡單啊換成賴清德去 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
9876.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
9885.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
先任副總統馬上當總統賴清德區總不會說他跟老共勾結了吧我想時空不一樣時空不一樣一個姓蔡一個姓馬不一樣啊好這個問題我們來看喔你這次也講過了齁但是印太司令在聽證會美國聽證會又在講說2027年老共準備好了清台的準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
9903.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
9904.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這句話你有沒有做點comment?建軍百年就要打台灣 這人邏輯也不通啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
9925.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
9932.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我剛才跟委員說明的是他們整體在2027年有他政略上跟軍事上的一個規劃的總目標我剛才跟委員說明的是在他建軍百年的總目標之下他們也要求到我請問你如果真的打仗要花多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
9948.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
9954.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
您講的是對岸嗎對岸要花多少錢當然我們要增加對岸的戰爭成本對要花多少錢要花多少錢會非常的龐大我這裡寫的對不對因為我找了很多資料一般評估大概一兆美金起跳各種估算都有我這樣的估算合不合理各種估算都有我的你用我看面子 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
9968.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
9996.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那我只能尊重委員的因為我不知道你的估算的指標還有相關計算的準確是什麼指標包括到時候所有的戰爭動員他所要該打多久對時間的長度規模以及戰爭的方式是數在數元你知不知道我們現在的戰備準備多少錢你知道嗎戰備準備多少錢指的是戰備準備金對我們有戰備準備喔你知道嗎戰備準備這可能是國防部的夜館 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
9998.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
10026.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
你國安局的情報可以說不知道五千四百億啦原來的資料是五千四百億台幣還不是美金勒美金只有18除以三十整個181美金要打這個錢其實老共一兆美金請問如果數字可以接受的話勉強可以接受的話老共打得起打不起花得起花不起一兆美金請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
10028.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
10053.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
他們現在的整體的要不要武力犯台的評估不是只有經濟上的問題他還要考慮到整體的國際環境還要考慮到其他的各項的因素你沒有回答我的問題啊我就說依照美金合不合理的估算對我就尊重委員的相關的評估但是這個評估這不是我講的對啊但是我們不知道評估單位它依據的準據到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
10054.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
10059.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
因為財政部啊已經在昨天我質詢他的時候他說參加兵推啦齁那他們財務組金融組討論到要準備前打仗啦所以可能要加稅或者加捐啦那請問你啊這個我們看到日本為了擴大規模去擴軍啦加稅就被國會否決了齁那個博安戰爭打下來大概2000億美金啦就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
10083.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
10085.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我們尊重相關業管單位的評估跟規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
10101.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
10104.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
你既然講專案我就跟你講一個最重要的一個專業的東西我提兩件事兩件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
10130.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
10134.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這個憲兵我們要擴兵從5千人要擴到1萬以上憲兵什麼意思就是對義務役啊義務役說原來說那些人不會打仗義務役就是在海防那邊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
10148.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
10151.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
對於首都防衛都有整體的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
10177.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
10179.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
五千六到一萬你對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
10194.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
10199.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
因為國軍人是有身家都是義務役所以義務役現在就兩個處處一個就是海防第一線進來面對老共的共軍第二個萬利打到快台北市的我們圍起來都是義務役在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
10210.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
10212.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我們先休息5分鐘回來處理臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
10579.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
10582.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
好請大家回座我們準備開會現在處理臨時提案請議事人員宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
10601.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
10624.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
臨時提案致因2024年總統大選期間不斷有疑似政治人物失人影片以及疑似蔡英文總統錄音檔等內容流出引發社會嘩然近請國家安全局協同調查單位查核相關影片或錄音檔證位信並調查及其事件是否導致國家機密外流之情形或者 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
10625.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
10645.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
為境外勢力介入選舉之具體樣態：並請與二周內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員徐巧欣陳永康馬文君黃仁林毅君等人宣讀完畢請問提案委員需不需要說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
10648.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
10660.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
謝謝主席那我想說明一下因為外界對這個事情相關的事情非常的關心那呢我想因為這個相關單位可能會認為說這個進到所謂的檢調調查是真的檢調有關的那我要特別說明一下這個提案我們是針對有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
10668.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
10686.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
國家機密外流以及境外選舉介入之具體太陽希望去了解他的真偽那這個部分呢跟所謂的檢調調查他是形式上面有沒有犯罪是兩回事所以我們希望了解的是在行政調查的部分的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
10686.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
10688.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
國安局對提案的內容有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
10709.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
10733.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
謝謝主席跟提案委員我們是不是建議就提案的文字內容可以做部分的一個修正那在暗友的部分就致因2024年總統大選期間不斷有疑似政治人物私人影片以及疑似蔡英文總統錄音檔等內容流出引發社會嘩然那接下來是敬請國家安全局協同調查單位重視相關影片與或錄音檔的傳散 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
10736.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
10761.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
評估內案是否導致國家機密外流．以及說明境外勢力介入學舉之具體的樣態．並在兩週之內向立法院外交及國防委員會提供書面報告我們建議做以上的文字修正那就國安局的說明在場委員有沒有意見三位議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
10766.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
10794.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
沒有問題我跟管局確認一下這個修正意見是你們提出來的嗎你們OK嗎修正意見我們有跟我們相關的調查單位有討論過OK嗎對文字上可以接受謝委好那如果在場委員沒有意見的話我們再宣讀一次好不好就修正文字的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
10804.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
10833.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
宣讀修正結果第二段竟請國家安全局協同調查單位重視相關影片或錄音檔傳算並評估內案是否導致國家機密外流以及說明境外情勢介入選舉之具體樣態並且於兩週內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
10839.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
10846.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
這場委員對於修正後的內容還有沒有其他意見好,如果沒有意見我們修正通過接下來我們繼續詢答我們請黃仁委員給出面質詢接下來請洪孟楷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
10864.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
10866.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
吳佩奕委員不在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
10901.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
10902.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
局長蔡主席、陳委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
10914.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
10934.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
局長其實我剛才早上我們聽了機密會議那其實之前也有機密的會報等等我必須再次強調我們對機密的核定跟我們對機密的認定不可以這麼寬鬆就是說如果你上面的每一個資料其實都是可以透過公共的查詢知道的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
10935.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
10965.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那這樣子的做法其實是在浪費大家的時間我還是必須強調機密層級跟我們的秘密的處理方式在這幾年不斷的被討論過把所有東西都變成密等但其實沒有任何一個有機密性的話那我認為對國家安全對保密來講你無所不防就是你根本就沒有在防守任何的事情包含機密的內容我還是在強調所有關於地緣政治所以內容裡面都沒有在提到沒有告訴我們說我們要立即要 alert 這什麼東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
10965.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
10965.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這是第一個部分那 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
10981.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
11002.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
局長針對這個部分你要不要簡單回應一下對 事實上在機密報告裡面有些情訊還是機密的那可能委員沒有特別注意到那這部分我們到時候再跟委員說明的時候我們再特別來做一些講解我每一頁都把它看完 看了兩次那沒關係局長您還記得2013年胡宗賢的高鐵的那個事件嗎那是 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
11003.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
11028.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那胡宗賢當初跟他共犯在高鐵的車廂放置疑似爆裂物的行李那同時也是在當時的時任現任的立委服務處那希望透過爆裂物來去引起社會恐慌那甚至是造成股市崩盤那他自己本身也是在放空當然後來因為他的這個技術能力不到所以沒有造成這樣子的對社會的極其的危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
11029.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
11040.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
但是我想知道的是說這種嫌犯意圖來造成社會各界的恐慌的事件我是覺得說應該要非常重視這樣的事情這讓我必須要提到說最近這些立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
11041.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
11066.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
所以看到最新的資訊好像已經有十幾個立委十七個立委已經遭遇到恐嚇的案件那這些案件是跨黨派的所以當然一開始我們以為是民主進步黨為主但是後來有一些在野黨的都有重點是他還用假名發送基本上用假名發送代表說他對整體的政治情勢是有一定的了解所以他要干擾的這個意圖是非常明顯的我想知道說從第一案到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
11068.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
11085.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
國安局目前掌握的情資是什麼跟委員說明一下事實上這些案子我們從過去這幾年有做一個整體的研判跟分析大概類似的案子應該已經有500多件累積下來那有很多的案子我們在查找他的境外的IP |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
11086.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
11112.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
以及他恐嚇文字的用語我們鎖定的有境外的一位入籍的人士那這位入籍的人士我們也透過跟對岸的共打的機制來希望對岸能夠去針對這個入籍人士不斷的散播這種電子郵件的恐嚇文件來做相關的法律約束這是第一個部分第二部分在樣態上他主要以前比較威脅的對象是我們的國際機場特別是淘機那後來的威脅對象又轉移到我們的總統府 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
11113.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
11138.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
還有轉移到我們警政署署長的署長信箱那接下來又轉移到各個委員的民意的郵件信箱來進行相關的一個恐嚇那恐嚇的對象一開始是放置爆裂物那後來又變成開始有所謂的金錢的勒索所以他的整個的樣態在這幾年來一直有變化西部我想也可以請黃署長再跟委員做進一步的報告局長我講這個的部分是因為我很擔心的是說在眾多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
11139.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
11165.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
一式恐嚇因為他可能恐嚇是目的他真正的目的是危害國家安全我很擔心像胡宗賢這樣的事件的發生他只是為了在散發眾多的混亂訊息裡面其實只有一條是真的而那一條真的如果我們沒有找到的話就會直接影響到國家的安全對混淆然後消耗我們的能量對所以我必須還是強調說這個部分就是直接我對那個高鐵案我到現在印象還是很深刻的因為它實質上是會造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
11167.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
11182.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
當然而且我們很害怕的麻煩容許我補充一句話我們很害怕的是相關類案的樣態會有更多人去學習模仿那造成的效應會更大所以我們提早把這件事情點出來就是提早震懾讓他們知道說我們有在了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
11183.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
11201.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那其實跨越這個不同的局處就是你們轄下的每一個局處包含這個憲兵包含這個調查局國安局還有跟行政院的國土安全辦公室的協調我都覺得很重要因為當然我知道說總統跟行政院是總統這個我們的行政權是不同不屬於同一個單位但是就是說資訊的傳遞這沒有問題我們有協調匯報 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
11205.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
11223.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
因為這部分有兩個部分一個是計劃的整備部分這是行政院的國土安全辦但是在情報的分享通報上是由本局來主導謝謝謝謝局長這個之前你們有跟我們就是有匯報過所以我了解到這件事情那我相信局長對這件事情也很用心所以在這邊肯定我們還是希望說因為跨一個局處其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
11224.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
11226.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
第二部分關於美國的TikTok禁令 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
11246.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
11269.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那上週我們看到美國眾議院基本上是352票贊成65票反對壓倒性通過相關的禁令那在這一個禁令的也不是禁令啦理論上是叫他們的字母跳動來去字節跳動來去出售TikTok但是只要不服從這樣子的裁決的話那原則上就是要禁止他們在他們的那個平台上下架那 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
11269.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
11285.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
原則上我是想請教因為我為什麼會提到這件事情因為在聽證會的時候許多國會的眾議員美國的國會眾議員都會請教他們的情治單位的首長來針對這件事情來表達對此軟體可能造成的危害局長我想請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
11287.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
11301.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
為什麼美國要求撤資TikTok為什麼美國要求這個字母跳動撤資TikTok這主要原因有兩個部分第一個部分是在TikTok的股權的結構裡面因為有中資入資在裡面那我也知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
11301.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
11302.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
昨天唐鳳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
11329.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
11357.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
對對所以這部分我想我們國內跟國外在評論TikTok的資安風險性看法是一致的本局也支持這樣的看法對所以說我自己本身我們辦公室也會提出相關的針對這種境外勢力影響到我們的這種社群媒體因為他這上一次是直接是在美國國會要投票之前他們直接TikTok是直接有一個彈跳視窗要求他們的選區的選民打電話叫他們不要這麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
11358.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
11381.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
所以這就是直接干預這不是演算法而是直接彈跳式視窗告訴他們可以掌握年齡他們可以掌握地區他們能夠掌握資料這個地方我是覺得是我認為是要嚴肅看待所以相關的修法建議我有請昨天有請數位部長來給我們相關的建議那同時這邊也請國安局是不是能夠給我一個完整的建議那我還是強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
11382.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
11382.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
中共利用國軍的 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
11394.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
11413.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
中校是降落山東建築局長有聽到這樣子的訊息嗎之前有這樣的案子對在偵辦當中的在偵辦當中是由調查局偵獲的嗎檢方也在偵辦已經立案在偵辦我說由調查局偵獲的嗎就是這件事情是由調查局掌握情資的對而且有軍中的弟兄提供這樣的檢舉資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
11415.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
11440.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那這個資訊國安單位就是包括國安局提早有沒有在檢查之前都有掌握這是我們主動去注意到有這樣的資訊而且檢舉的管道非常的多我們在彙整資訊之後有把資料提供給我們的檢調單位來立案偵辦謝謝所以局長我可以這麼說嗎就是說當初這件事情的時候有來自不同的訊息有不同的局處有不同的投訴單位有 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
11441.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
11443.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這個案子的資訊管道是多重管道進來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
11464.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
11488.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我為什麼要問這個問題的原因就是說我要讓透過國會的這樣子的質詢那也是釋放出一個訊息就是說我們不是依靠單一的情治單位只要有類似這樣重大的違安的違反國家安全規定的我們的所有局處都有能力徵收到都有能力來去處置我想這個訊息我必須在國會還是再次這樣強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
11492.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
11513.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
對這案子在去年的11月已經起訴了對那在關於中共在國內的這個協力者的部分那我們當然知道說他發展組織是無孔不入是剛才提到的是軍方的人士但是其實除了軍方的人士在社會的各層面對我們的挑戰都很大那 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
11514.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
11538.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
特別是我自己本身遇到的這一個之前有跟我們的國安局還有其他情治單位有反應有一些中共的代替協力者他們可以拿到記者證那他們可以近距離的拿出他們的非常高畫質高品質的攝影機來去把每一個出席總統或者是副總統參與的 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
11540.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
11540.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
委員長蔡明彥率 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
11556.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
11560.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我擔心這樣的事情我也希望國安局跟調查局都可以有所準備因為這樣子的情資的收集已經不是一年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
11580.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
11607.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我自己本身看到已經四五年都有在做這樣的事情他們其實並非他們其實就是後來取得國籍的人的比例也很高後來取得台灣國籍的比例也很高所以有沒有計劃性的這樣的做法有沒有計劃性的這樣子得到情資那我必須再次強調這個部分我可能請那個憲兵的單位要注意這些人都可以離總統副總統大概只有4到8公尺的距離 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
11608.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
11618.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
多次賴副總統多次來的時候我都親眼看到都沒有好好的管制了解其背景我甚至都懷疑記者證是真的還假的所以我真的是很強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
11620.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
11638.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
對於維安的工作也好對於人物的梳理可以人物的梳理也好都要做好準備不要到時候相關的這些協力者就在旁邊或者自己本身就是國家安全情治的所要監管的對象離總統副總統只有4公尺到8公尺這些都要注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
11640.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
11662.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
謝謝所以我們來加強委員要是有相關的資訊我們都有提供到國家局的當地的這些幹員都有提供我們都有請外勤的都有提供但是我還是在強調說這個不是由下而上而已還是要由上而下所以我們希望之後透過這個機會跟各請示單位來講一下這個問題已經出現很頻繁了直接把名單拿走都有謝謝委員提醒謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
11667.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
11687.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
接下來我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請鄭天才委員鄭天才鄭天才委員不在請謝依鳳委員謝依鳳謝依鳳委員不在請蔡義渝蔡義渝蔡義渝委員不在請鄭振前鄭振前鄭振前委員不在請邱志偉委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
11715.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
11742.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
謝謝 而且 呃 公安局蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 邱文華局長 這個大家都討論太平島所以我昨天在這邊跟外交部表達 這個不是選擇題這是一個很複雜的國安的問題對所以 因為我曾經大概9年前去過或是 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
11744.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
11763.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
用國防委員會召委那時候是國防部長陪我去整路上是非常緊張大概9年前還是10年前西夏娃餐棟您做過嗎有做過很辛苦對不對還好要經過其他國家的領空對不對還要事先召會 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
11765.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
11787.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
又不能用武裝的這個航機去執行對不對對你運輔到那時候西腰山洞對不對如果元首出訪是多麼危險的事情你看經過這個菲律賓還有其他的周遭的聲索國這些相關的這個區域是高度危險的區域啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
11789.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
11813.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所以目前解放軍在太平島周遭有幾個島嶼、新建港、機場、跑道據你們了解解放軍在南海周遭、太平島附近的南海海域目前並部署的軍力 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
11817.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
11842.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
早上我跟王定宇委員也稍微說明報告到從3月份來講大概軍機的部分平均3月份平均下來常駐的對他每天都有活動那相關的活動平均每一天有6架到20架的軍機在活動海上的部分就海軍的艦艇跟海警的艦艇平均每一天大概也都有20艘的船艇在活動在那個區域活動對在整個地區活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
11846.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
11869.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
對,有些的那個人工寶礁已經建設成有相關的碼頭可以讓大型的船艦來停靠所以我們的太平島的這個駐軍的規模大概一個加強率吧對,有這部分的人數可以請海巡署來說明大概有200人左右對,差不多啦這個我有實際上去過假設發生這個最 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
11871.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
11872.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
最嚴重的狀況他襲擊式的這個奪島 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
11878.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
11904.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那我們這個後勤的補給也很困難嗎對 這部分也跟委員說了有沒有相關的因應的方案跟劇本對 這跟委員說明一下因為太平島在這幾年政府的經營之下我們已經對於上島上的一些火炮還有武器裝備有做非常大幅度的更新但是跟解放軍在當地的在那個區域的部署的軍力跟這個武器的數量規模是差很多吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
11904.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
11932.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
對,但自我防衛的能量一定要持續來建置,而且...你們有沒有相關的劇本跟印印的方案?都有齁?如果萬一他們用這種突襲式的奪島,我們如何印印?那後勤的補給如何去處理?我總不能派軍艦到那邊去吧?我們戰鬥機也沒辦法放到那邊去吧?這部分國防部跟海巡都有相關的預印準備的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
11933.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
11934.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
目前我們對這個區域有沒有可能尋求國際的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
11947.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
11973.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我們在國際合作的部分也跟委員說明一下大概每年的五月份吧海巡都會有南援援助的援南援人道救援的演練規模非常的大那也會邀請國際的是跨國的嗎沒有主要是我們演練但是會邀請國外的專家來做觀察人道救援那個是另外一回事我說這個在軍事上面的合作或者演練你要結合這個反對中國的力量勢力或者國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
11973.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
11979.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
戰略情資的分享的機制是有的那可能沒有進入到委員所提到的這種比較軍事面的一個合作畢竟他還是有敏感性 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
11994.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
12000.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
發動對太平島的這個祈禱或者是這個突襲或者是奪島這個是變成一個戰爭狀態對當然現在我們的領土戰爭狀態不是說局部這個可能我們必須要反制對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
12009.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
12011.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
有沒有可能在武器提升呢?有沒有可能武器在提升? |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
12032.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
12056.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
相關部署可以請海巡再做進一步的說明但我剛剛在強調的是這幾年對但這幾年一直有在更新一直有在更新這個先是要機敏這個先也就不用談了我是說你們有充分的準備就好了那我希望說在武器性能上面數量上面能夠提升加強它的防禦的能力那派駐的這個兵力有沒有可能再增加呢這個我問一下那個署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
12058.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
12086.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
委員好,我想我們現在東南沙駐守的同仁的數量是以執法為主所以我們現在目前的數量是足夠的執法為主對,我們海域執法為主嘛那首島的首島當然也是我們的責任首島的責任應該比執法更大吧當然,我們所以你的人員有沒有可能再增加呢我們目前沒有增加的這個規劃好,現在請這個警政署那個黃署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
12094.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
12112.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這個訊息很多虛假訊息很多詐騙訊息刑事警察局我想周局長也在發揮了一些功能但是宣導還不夠很多人就是比如說他的帳號被盜用直接去找平台平台根本就不理你 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
12113.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
12133.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那直接打這個刑事警察局的165有專人在處理馬上透過這個什麼紅線這個紅線跟綠線跟這個平台公司聯絡馬上用公權力他就會重視這部分我希望這個署長能夠加強讓這個詐騙或者被盜用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
12140.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
12165.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
能夠在最短的時間之內能夠獲得遏止或者下架另外我一直在強調你們這個每一個分局派出所都有可能上電視我強調很多次這個局長你也知道一下你打開這個電視頻道死者裡面有9隻都是警察同仁據說案情這個車禍怎麼發生的這個貓怎麼被受困 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
12171.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
12199.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
這個是國家大事嗎我們要提供一個有益的訊息就到處充斥的謹慎署提供的訊息很多是密錄器傳出來的很多是偵查不應該公開的所謂引帶你去這個搜索的引帶你去這個去攻堅的引帶這個不應該出現在媒體對不對然後所有對話都講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
12201.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
12218.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這個我一而再再而三跟你們講你們還是不是這個沒有改進這個要想一些辦法你不要讓人家全國民眾認為說台灣這個是不是自然敗壞而且很多的訊息沒有這個新聞價值是不是讓我們浪費所有閱聽人的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
12226.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
12247.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
新聞要提供資訊是有益的資訊就跟公眾利益相關資訊而不是提供一些根本就是沒有任何新聞價值的資訊而這些資訊來自哪裡檢證署講了很多次你們還是沒有辦法拿出這個有效辦法就看你們要不要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
12251.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
12267.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
這個局長這個蔡局長你同管這個國安部這個會牽涉到這個國家這個社會穩定的問題這個一定的高度是不是可以跟警政組再協調一下有什麼方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
12271.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
12297.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我們還是一樣我們是有頒訂相關的管理辦法我是還要求各縣市警察局課徵這個辦法那我們會做媒體上面的一個監錄監看如果發現有違反這個規定還是該受懲處還是要受懲處的會加大密度的一個檢管我把30分鐘的新聞節目我放給你看30分鐘裡面大概有25分鐘都是你接受新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
12299.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
12322.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
重大治安事件當然你要讓大家知道這個可能讓大家做一些資訊的公開維護其有的一些小事情就變為一個新聞的素材這新聞素材誰提供的不是媒體去拍的是你們警察通常警察局派出所所提供的 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
12324.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
12330.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我們接下來請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在 請王洪威委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
12358.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
12362.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
好 謝謝主席 我請我們的蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 王委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
12370.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
12398.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
好局長好最近國人非常關切就是我們蔡總統在他卸任之前會不會登上太平島昨天在同樣在我們國防外交委員會裡面也有熱烈討論那吳釗燮部長說因為現在呢南海的局勢呢比較緊張所以呢現在不是適當的時機我想請問一下像我們國安局或者國安會是否曾經就 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
12399.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
12426.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
蔡總統要不要登上太平島有沒有開會或者是給這個蔡總統任何的意見有沒有沒有沒有正式的開會那但因為最近大家一直在關注這個問題那早上也有很多委員提出指教然後媒體在問我的時候我大概提醒的是國安局的評估重點有兩個那也在跟委員說明一下一個部分是當地的地緣政治確實是比較緊張 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
12427.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
12446.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那我們的總統登島會不會引發國際有一些解讀認為我們在激化這個區域的情勢就關的角度這是我們要評估的第一個面向那第二個面向是在於說因為當地的軍事化程度比較高那在1600公里的航程過程當中總統的坐機有沒有飛航或維安的問題這也是國安的角度要評估的其實你這兩點應該是跟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
12450.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
12464.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
昨天外交部的說法類似可是你們從來沒有正式的召開會議從來沒有正式的來交換過意見就是相關的這些國安單位都沒有沒有但我們也會尊重各個單位對這個問題的相關評估的意見所以我嚴重懷疑這是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
12470.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
12486.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
在這一次大家外界針對蔡總統為什麼這8年總統都快要做完了但是他從來沒有登上太平島現在大概你們想出這兩點的理由那當然這意思就是說現在的timing不對可是問題是總統蔡總統他做總統不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
12489.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
12490.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
NEVER |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
12509.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
12533.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
跟委員說明一下就對於太平島相關的主權跟海洋權益的捍衛我們有專案的機制這是一個部分那委員特別提到的是總統的登島的問題那這是兩件事在捍衛主權跟海洋權益的部分我們這幾年做得非常非常的多剛剛也跟各位委員有說明到一個是島上的武器裝備的精進還有設施的改善那也才會有這一次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
12533.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
12536.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
對,我想跟前任總統比較的話可能也請委員可以考慮一下施工環境的背景跟南海的態勢確實不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
12563.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
12567.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我講過蔡總統她不是上任8個月好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
12569.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
12595 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
八年來那個南海的情勢都是如此嗎反正你們要去找理由什麼理由都可以找好那另外呢最近國安局可能也是外界特別關注的就是有關於封禁案件的問題那當然你們這個國安局特警中心的少將就是當街去擁吻這個高階軍官那現在呢已經被受處分了 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
12595.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
12614.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
可是事實上是從現在才開始的嗎?也就是說這個風紀問題比如說2020年的10月份也曾經發生包含這個什麼我們的國安情報人員有性騷擾啦霸凌的事件啦泄密的事件2018年也有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
12616.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
12616.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
國安局局長蔡明彥率 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
12640.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
12652.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
特勤中心或者是我們這些相關人員在風氣的要求上我們到底有沒有因為過去發生的這些事件我們有沒有些什麼檢討我們有沒有什麼告誡 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
12655.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
12675.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
怎麼會一次又一次過幾年又發生同樣的又發生類似的事件然後其實這個關節也都還蠻高的所以我想請問我們國安局當然我知道局長的這個上任時間不是很長可是問題是這個整個政府的施政是延續的啊所以為什麼我們這個風氣這樣敗壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
12678.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
12704.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
對 謝委員提到這個很重要的問題那我們一直有在注意我們局內的這種性騷或性品的一個事件那這些案例來講在我到國安局一年多的時間來講只要有發生類似的性騷的問題的話我們一定是依法嚴查跟嚴辦跟委員說明一下因為假如事件當中有所謂的被害者的話他在5年之內都可以提出相關的法律告訴所以我們在整個處理案件過程當中一定都會依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
12705.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
12731.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
問題是你看有些被害者我就說以這次這當街去永穩的高階女軍官她不是被害者爆料她是這個也是外界來爆料而且被人家拍的這個清清楚楚所以被害者沒有爆料事實上我還擔心這是不是已經成為你們的文化之一也就是說被害者可能身處期間還不認為他是被害者是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
12731.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
12746.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
沒有我想每個個案都有不同的狀況那委員剛剛所列出來的風氣的案件老實講有些案件也並沒有像媒體報導的那個狀況所以一切都要依照相關的法律程序什麼叫做沒有媒體報導的狀況這個都被人家拍得清清楚楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
12747.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
12771.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
我剛不是講委員講的那個個案我說您剛剛所列出來的有很多的案子有些案子它並不是向媒體報導的狀況那一定要經過的不是媒體報導的狀況你們就要再說明對對對我另外有時間我覺得第一個就是說這種桃花的這種風紀案件太多另外一個就是呢也是在3月1號也是最近就是我們的這個憲兵對不起我們今天是 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
12772.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
12780.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我們國防部有限制部在對限制部不好意思時間暫停我們指揮官 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
12786.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
12801.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
來這個也是讓我們覺得很不可思議而且是在總統官邸裡面這個出現舉槍制槍不是在總統官邸裡面是在那個總統府周邊的警衛區管制區那一樣啊他就是護衛總統府嘛對不對對是這沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
12803.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
12827.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
而且這個過去113年過去也發生過類似事件所以我想請問一下我剛講一個性騷霸凌或者是桃花不輪等等之類另外一方面就是我們的這個國安人員也好或者我們的憲兵也好在整個的他的心理輔導以及元首維安的部分我們要怎麼樣加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
12828.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
12844.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
因為我們看到這個問題的時候也是覺得年紀輕輕當然一定是有他這個可能他在這個人生過不了的坎實在是很令人遺憾但是另外一方面也凸顯了我們維安上的一個大漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
12845.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
12868.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
對,就每個個案來講我們都高度的重視那從個案裡面我們要做我們制度性比較全面性的一個改革那包括到對我們情緣心緒的一個輔導、懈怠的一個管理以及相關的勤務執行的相關的工作量有沒有過多都會做一個妥善的一個規劃跟處理細節部分我請指揮官對指揮官簡單的講一下這位憲兵他最主要的問題是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
12869.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
12894.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
向委員報告我們針對他的家庭財務健康情務心理各面向的分析都沒有相關的噪音發生那我們針對這個部分也強化我們所有情緣在心理輔導部分包括量化表的檢查包括心腹個案包括專家講這個講演提升我們心腹的智能使我們冠名弟兄對這個心結讓心理能夠促進他健康的心理的建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
12895.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
12912.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
當然我希望這個事後亡羊補牢不如事前的這個預防未籌謀來的重要好不好我希望能夠為我們這些憲兵的弟兄們我覺得在心理輔導上面是非常非常重要好不好謝謝我們會重視也會來加強謝謝委員來提醒我們謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
12914.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
12919.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
因為剛剛洪孟楷委員在處理臨時提案的時候在現場那時間可能比較快有離開我們現在同意洪委員上台質詢質詢時間4分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
12946.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
12949.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
主席謝謝麻煩請國安局蔡局長請蔡局長蔡局長我們有看到就是現在有所謂的這個太平島的一個世界太平島也是我國的領土我們也認為是說太平島這個捍衛我國領土這個絕對是我們任何機關大家都責無旁貸但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
12974.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
12989.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
稍早我好像聽到講說您有發表說現階段我們的元首不適宜前往請教時機不宜或是現階段不宜指標有哪一些對我們剛剛有跟其他的委員報告過就國安局國安的角度來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
12989.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
13006.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
第一點我們會評估的重要的一個指標跟考量的面向是在於當地的地緣政治的緊張程度是比較高的那總統到太平島去會不會被外界國際社會解讀城市在激化緊張情勢會不會影響到我們的外交利益這是我們評估的第一個重點第二重點是因為太平島 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
13007.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
13009.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我只想確認就是講師說那這樣子的話520之前有解決的可能性嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
13033.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
13033.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我相信你們一定是嚴格標準但是嚴格標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
13053.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
13076.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
能不能積極主動要做有一百種理由要找藉口有一百個藉口啊當然但是我現在講的是說520之前有可能剛剛你講的上述這些事情能夠解除嗎目前看到這兩個層面的問題比較是結構性的問題那假如結構性的問題沒有辦法解決來降低不確定性的話現階段以我們國安的角度來講我們不會建議總統去太平島 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
13077.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
13089.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
好 所以如果說這樣有可能會蔡英文總統會變成是2000年首度政黨輪替之後第一位沒有踏上過太平島的元首這樣對於蔡總統到底是好還是不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
13089.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
13117.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那各單位可能都會有一些評估的角度那我剛剛特別跟委員說明的是從我們國安局國安的角度來講國安的立場那兩個立場是我們在討論過程當中包括委員討論過程當中我們必須要提醒大家一起來注意的好那再請教我們現在也看到說準副總統蕭美琴她低調的有去做訪歐還有去捷克等等的一個照片那請教這個相關的行程到底算是公務行程還是私人行程 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
13117.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
13133.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
相關的行程是由外交部來做相關的規劃那它在行程上主要是參與一些民間的智庫的交流活動那順道有跟當地的歐洲友人做一些互動那大概性質是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
13137.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
13153.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
我們必須要針對違安的部分提供必要的依法必須要提供必要的在行程的部分沒有行程我們沒有行程的部分沒有我外交部來規劃吳釗燮部長講說如果說中共生氣了就是我們做對了那既然強調我們的話這就代表不是私人行程不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
13154.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
13167.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
這尊重外交部對外的一些說法但就我們對於形成的理解主要都是民間智庫的教育活動局長以國安角度因為你剛一直強調都國安國安那我想請教你認同外交部部長講的這句話嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
13169.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
13187.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
因為我不知道他在回答委員的背景還有相關的問題意思是什麼我沒有辦法去在這個地方做評論我們當然都支持也認同希望中華民國能夠走出去甚至我也講說任何國家機關都不應該要忽視中華民國存在的事實可是如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
13188.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
13204.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
只要中共生氣了就是我們做對了這句話到底有沒有問題啊我們的元首、副元首或是準元首、準副元首出訪是到底他的目的是以增進中華民國在國際的能見度還是只是要惹人家生氣就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
13204.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
13205.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
所以我們最重點還是能夠增進中華民國在國際上的能見度嗎當然是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
13231.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
13255.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
對 這個很重要那各國的反應我們要注意好 最後一個部分我還是一分鐘請教一下剛剛我提到那個我們網紅衛委員有講到這個憲兵這個指揮部的一個部分剛剛我特別確認一下我們的指揮官因為本期也是我們後線的一份子我是拐動士期畢業所以說我特別感謝我們憲兵給我的這些指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
13256.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
13284.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那剛剛有特別提到這一個弟兄他是因為你剛剛有特別講是說沒有家庭因素沒有任何經濟因素所以單純的感情因素是不是報告委員他並不是感情因素也不是感情因素那到底是什麼因素沒有超出明顯的這個象徵他什麼的這個自我傷害的原因那這樣子會不會反而讓大家覺得我因為我就是聽到你這句話我覺得很嘩然欸所以他的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
13285.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
13287.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
來局長這樣子我聽到這樣子本席反而會害怕他沒有原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
13306.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
13319.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
沒有任何一個原因如果說感情因素大家可以理解經濟因素大家可以理解家庭因素大家可以理解但是到目前為止憲兵指揮部告訴我們是說完全查不出任何原因那他就拿槍自殘 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
13321.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
13345.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那如果說今天他的槍口不是對自己是對別人呢尤其他又是在總統府他又是在博愛特區這樣會不會反而找不出原因反而是一個很大的漏洞跟問題您同意嗎我了解委員關切的重點是他不是錢不是人家指使沒有來由的突然間本來都好好的正常的然後就一瞬間拿槍自殘 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
13346.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
13348.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
指揮官提到指揮官是公開有什麼不能說的秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
13361.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
13381.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
還是說是想息事寧人還是怎麼樣我想針對這個個案國安局要不要再瞭解一下針對這個個案因為有涉及到他個人的一些個人的狀況那我覺得不應該在公開的場合但是國安局應不應該再瞭解一下我們會會後把相關狀況我等一下就可以跟委員稍微講一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
13381.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
13403.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
本席還是強調我們憲兵的弟兄一定都是忠貞一定都是發揮我們的媒合精神一定都是捍衛國家效忠援手但更重要的是我們要照顧我們憲兵弟兄的一個權益那也呼籲國安局跟憲兵指揮中心這邊來了解一下每一個個案發生後面的一個成因好不好 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
13412.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
13425.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
已登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有陳永康委員黃仁委員黃潔委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面與兩周內答覆本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
13435.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
13446.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供以上如有涉及機密的部分請確實依相關保密規定辦理本日會議到此結束散會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
13464.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
13465.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
委員長蔡明彥 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
13485.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
13507.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
議員議員議員議員 |