| video_url |
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| 委員名稱 |
牛煦庭 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:41:00 - 16:01:44 |
| 影片長度 |
1244 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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好 謝謝主席這個考試院副院長候選人許書柏先生有請我們請備題名人許書翔打書許書翔不好意思 更正一下吳安老吳安老今天我們就直接切入主題針對本席關心的幾個題目就教於我們的副院長候選人 |
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第一個是要和您探討公務員的職場霸凌以及相關的法律修正的這個問題這個勞動部勞益發展署北分署於11月4號發生無信資訊工程師的輕生事件那麼事後被揭露這個整個勞發署的北分署 |
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長期處在不合理的高壓環境不只有職場霸凌有高離職率、打假卡的問題甚至還有貪污圖利跟非法運資購買非常多的禮盒等等這些問題謝宜榮分署長從2023年2月到任之後校長保護、好大喜功、鋼筆致用靠著前任勞動部長許明春還有時任的勞發署署長蔡孟良當靠山在機關裡作威作福 |
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這個事發後勞動部自請調查調查結果為分署長目的良善、霸凌和死因無關引起巨大民怨最後勞動部長下台負上政治責任勞動部並宣布折旗重啟調查並且將謝宜榮分署長送考機會依公務人員考機法一次計兩大過這個免職處分 |
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這個本席想先跟這個副院長候選人探討一下處分的類型跟效果按照這個表格所述基本上從勞動部的考機會他當然可以這個打丁等嘛然後就是兩大過直接免職那麼送考試院來做處理對不對那考試院基本上也是所謂的用專案考機的方式來做處理一樣強度上也是所謂的兩大過免職我請教一下副院長候選人這個免職跟免除職務的差別在哪裡 |
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146.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
免職跟免職…呃…抱…抱歉我這…對這個沒有因為這個法…這個就是四色法規這沒有關係喔這個…這個本席就在這個地方直接講齁所謂的兩大過免職基本上就是開除現…現有的職務啦但他有…他可被保留公務員的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
148.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
166.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
這個副院長候選人應該就清楚對不對他的公務員身份還是保留對不對唯一要能夠做到最嚴厲的處分也就是說連公務人員任用的資格都失去基本上要由監察院進行彈劾之後送懲戒法院嘛然後由司法院懲戒法院判所謂的免除職務啊才有辦法徹底拔除這個人的公務員的資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
167.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
194.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
所以這個公務人員任用法第28條也講就是說基本上你要透過懲戒法院的判決你才能夠受免除職務的懲戒處分那麼才有辦法這個把他公務人員的身份來做撤銷雖然根據公務人員考級法第12條這種種我們在這邊就不再詳述他完全符合罪行重大這樣子的一個情況但是現在考試院能做的是不是基本上就是核准勞動部的這樣子的這個考級處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
199.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
221.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這個部分如果一程序這個當事人受阻礙如果他有提出相關的一些申訴或者訴願應該保訓會這邊還會再做對你甚至還要再研議對不對對這就是本期想要跟你探討的第一個問題也就是說今天即便考試院核准了或者是用專案考機的方式來處理這個免職當事人甚至都還有機會來提所謂的救濟程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
222.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
248.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那依法救濟喔搞不好喔你連現在的兩大過免職的這樣子的一個行動都有可能會形同宣誓對不對因為現在對外的說法是我們兩大過把它免職然後行政院院長還講說這個人永不入用但其實從法規的角度跟法律保障公園的角度這個只是說說而已嘛因為他還是可以依法救濟依法救濟可能甚至承接法院判不過等等的一個狀況在極端的狀況下他甚至有可能等待風頭過後 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
250.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
272.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
再去用公務員的身份再去申請其他的職位對不對這個是有可能發生的是不是是的一程序上他是有這方面救濟程序可以有救濟程序可許嘛對不對這個核心的問題其實當然就是本期要討論的就是也就是所謂的制度不完善的問題啦現行的法律喔並沒有針對職場霸凌有明確的定義嘛霸凌的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
274.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
293.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
勞動部的網站倒是有講發生在工作場所中同人間、主管部署間藉由權力濫用與不公平對待造成持續性冒犯、威脅、冷落、孤立或侮辱行為使霸凌者受挫、被威脅、羞辱、被孤立、受傷進而責損自信並帶來沉重身心壓力剛剛很多委員在質詢的時候其實都有講出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
297.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
318.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
可是在公務人員這一套各種法規裡面保障法、服務法、任用法、考機法其實都沒有去提相關的這樣子的一個狀況所以在謝宜榮這個案子裡面他很有可能發生因為與法無據嘛所以他還可以救濟他還可以說其他的東西舉證不成立所以逃過最終的制裁的這樣一個可能性那就表示我們的制度其實是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
319.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
342.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
修改的必要我想請問一下副院長候選人考試院作為人事行政的最高主管機關也是憲政機關你認為職場霸凌應不應該出現在公部門的文化裡面公部門不應該出現這個霸凌的問題當然不應該嘛對不對好那現在有這個狀況的時候應不應該要做制度的調整法規的修正我們這個會 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
344.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
365.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
早上這個周院長被提名也承諾了會針對保障法的部分來做這個修正來做修法對不對按修法的方向而言這問題比較開放一點就是職場霸凌應該要有多重的處分情節輕重這個副院長候選人心裡有沒有想法什麼樣的狀況應該受什麼樣的懲處這部分可能首先必須要針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
367.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
384.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所謂的霸凌做比較清楚的一個明確性定義如果我們就按照勞動部網站對於職場霸凌因為其實差不多嘛那只是僱主是政府機關或者是一般的僱主而已嘛如果就按照這樣子霸凌的定義的話你或跟其他的委員候選人有沒有討論過這樣子的一個重大的社會事件我們應該用什麼樣嚴肅的心態來看待 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
387.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
410.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我想這個一定是要非常嚴肅的看待因為公務體系事實上公務體系的量能每個公務員都很重要所以團隊事實上是非常重要的所以如果是有霸凌產生事實上對公務員的這個他執行他的這個職務的範圍會有影響也會影響對整體人民的這個權益所以應該是好好來這個處理這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
412.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
439.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
就副院長候選人來講你們心裡有沒有一個修法的時間表?或者是一個修法的方向?希望下個會期能夠提出來下一個會期可以提出來是不是?來因為本期這邊有一份公文這個其實齁這個是當初權序部送給考試院秘書長這當然是在你們還沒有上任之前啦但其實在這個公文裡面就寫得很清楚有關於公務人員考積法的修正草案以及相關修正條文請查照並於民國113年2月 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
441.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
458.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
22日前恢復所以表示其實在今年的2月考試院也就是前任的這個考試院其實就已經針對公務員考機法已經有了修法的這個草案我不知道為什麼啦我不知道為什麼當初他們在做的時候就只是內部討論而已然後就沒有然後了 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
458.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
475.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
然後現在一定要弄到出人命了之後才把他提上修法期間這是很奇怪的事情但是我要提醒副院長候選人是這一份當初考試院的函裡面還有他的修法草案裡面其實就已經把公務員職場霸凌的定義等等就已經清出來做入法好 所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
477.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
501.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
你既然已經講或者是稍早這個院長候選人大概也講了就是說下個會期要來做修法這本期就希望這件事情能夠如期而且盡速來做處理以解決我們現在講的現行制度的三個問題之一也就是法律沒有明文規定的問題那第二個我希望在今天的答詢之後我還能夠再收到更多的書面的意見的補充也就是說現行的懲戒強度顯然是沒有辦法遏止霸凌行為嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
502 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
528.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那在未來的修法跟制度的調整方向如何加大懲戒的強度去從頭到尾去杜絕霸凌發生的可能性這我想是新任不管是副院長候選人也好或者是其他考試委員的候選人都應該心裡都要有個這是一個社會大眾交給你們的問卷我希望可以看到具體的答案在我們表決人事同意權之前那第三個要花一點點時間再請教副院長候選人的看法是如何及早發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
530.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
550.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你作為現在很多人在講說考試院可能沒必要啦反正行政院人事行政總署都處理完啦對不對所以考試院變成好像一個這個跟大家距離比較遠的一個機關但是其實考試院是人事權這個最高憲政機關其實這個本來本來就是你的業務啊我們要怎麼及早發現這樣的問題我想及早發現齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
552.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
572.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這個大概有兩個部分一個部分事實上各機關在各自的範圍裡面像這個霸凌的問題如果是存在你的機關那機關如果知道是應該要人事單位應該要適當的處理尤其是我們的人事行政事實上是一條邊的制度所以這個分屬的我不曉得他們叫人事室還是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
573.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
600.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
如果是知道這個問題那麼分署自己沒辦法處理是不是應該給發展署這一邊這個人事單位來處理如果沒辦法再上到勞動部副院長現在講的一樣是實務上大家先現行習慣的模式也就是交給行政權裡面的人事的相關的事項來做處理可是我要跟副院長候選人談的事情就是說按照現行的邏輯跟制度他其實是沒有辦法解決問題的因為他雖然 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
600.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
601.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
624.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
640.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
或是你要跟人事行政總局協調也可以但怎麼樣來講我們的整體政府機關其實要有一個監控的機制這個監控機制不是講說這個干涉他們的權利而是以這個勞發署這個案例來講後面大家揭露的是他的離職率非常高 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
642.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
666.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
很多的公務機關裡面哪一些機關離職率特別高哪一些機關常常有請調的需求哪一些機關留不住人他其實就是先造一定有原因嘛所謂的事出必有因有原因你才會知道這個狀況如果我們的考試院能夠有一些專案的督導的一些機制跟行政總處來做合作從源頭去發現這樣的問題我們是不是能夠少一點這樣子的悲劇 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
667.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
693.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
是 我想委員講的這個方向是正確那事實上我的瞭解我們也開始這個在考試院這邊也跟人種這邊建立一些這個資料庫的這個平台從這個相關的數據去瞭解問題所以如果是人員有過度的流動那到底為什麼會有這樣的一個情形應該要及早去發現那早上有一些委員也提到考試院應該也要多出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
693.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
720.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
走一走了解這個基層的一些聲音我覺得這也是有道理因為我們不能只有負責法治事項之後就由各機關自己去對啦這其實就是本期今天要講的就是說人事行政總署來主管這樣的事情的時候難免受到行政權這裡面的官場一些文化的影響但因為考試權它也具備有一定的獨立性基本上能夠被提名為考試委員、正副院長等等教育會員資歷也好、威望也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
722.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
736.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
學經歷都經過一定的考驗他其實是夠厚重的那你要善用這樣子的厚重性跟這樣的獨立性有的時候來適時的導正行政機關裡面的一些不良風氣這是我對於未來新任考試院政府院長跟新任委員的期許 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
736.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
761.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以我們希望在會後有詳細的資料再來補充我們如何來解決現行制度的三大問題第一 法律的明文規定什麼樣的時間表之內我們要來做處理第二個 有關於悲劇的懲戒的強度是否能夠有效的來做提升第三 我們有哪一些預前的機制考試院可以扮演什麼樣的積極角色來杜絕問題這一部分希望副院長候選人在會後可以做一些補充的說明可以嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
762.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
773.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
第二部分要來跟大家也是很關心的這個年輕改革跟人事制度的再次檢討這我一一拜讀了各位包含副院長候選人您在內各個考試委員的這個口頭報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
776.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
796.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
基本上都看了然後還有我們黨團提出來一些問題跟答案我覺得比較難過的是就是說大家其實都很清楚公務機關裡面公部門相對封閉但是這一群人其實對社會大部分的人都是貢獻良多的很多人在年金改革的過程中感覺情感受到了巨大的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
796.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
819.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
因為他們不只是退休的權利這個來自於國家當初的承諾因為粗暴的修法而受到了剝奪更重要的是在修法的過程中因為煽動社會的對立跟階級跟世代的鬥爭讓這一群退休公務員其實是非常非常心寒不只是退休公務員心寒我也不覺得新進的公務人員在這一波改革之後會對未來抱有什麼樣的信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
819.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
849.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
因為在年金改革的永續性對我們把破產的年限往後延了20年但是現在相對年輕的公務員等到他們到了五十幾歲、六十幾歲年金退休的時候難道不是二十四年改的開始嗎他們可能就是下一批慘遭批鬥的肥貓可是對所有的公務員來講跨越世代、跨越黨派來講它其實都是不公平的事情所以我覺得在年金改革的部分我們也希望做一些討論跟調整遺憾的是我們在各個考試委員的回答之中我們幾乎沒有看到不同的聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
850.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
873.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
副院長候選人這個不同我覺得蠻難過的因為我們都希望考試院其實是超越黨派當然由行政機關來處理提名事務但是我不希望整個考試院因為由民進黨執政然後由他們來做這個提名事務然後對於年金的檢討跟修正大家都非常的保守甚至不敢觸碰本期覺得奇蹟以為不可副院長候選人有沒有一些別的想法可以跟大家分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
876.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
897.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我想任何改革這個基於我過去也是學公共政策的部分那事實上可能不能只有從單一的角度來思考問題所以對公務員的這個重視跟尊重那事實上這幾年政府也是相當努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
899.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
910.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這個對限職工人員在過去蔡總統八年任內也提高了11%調整薪資那賴總統一上來也調整了一定明年3%如果是預算有通過的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
912.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
934.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以我想這些調整也會反映到後面退休的人因為他的預算本縫有提升所以他的未來退休他所可以領到的會更多這是一種解決的方式那請問副院長候選人這樣子的一個解決的方式因為近年的通膨其實是非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
934.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
955.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那你現在的退休公務人員現在正在受到所謂的十年緩降的臨時處分那每一年的物價連年調漲退休金卻連年減少那然後你講說我稍微調整了本縫你覺得那個額度要怎麼樣來捏拿他是得宜的所以針對已經在領的月退縫的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
956.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
973.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
也是會隨物價如果消費者主持累計5%生物5%就會調整所以今年也因為這個問題調整了4%我們今天就不再多去談比如說改善基金績效這些老生常談很多人都談過但本席希望考試院會有一點不同的聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
973.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1002.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
就是針對這個因為這個本來就應該有滾動式檢討這幾年的經濟狀況、金融狀況其實跟當初修法的時候時空背景有很大的不同啦但是我們的考試院過度保守的時候其實不只是含了退休公務員的心也會讓未來的現任的公務員即將退休的或者是現在年輕的因為未來他們都會面對一樣的事情我們是希望在這個重新再檢討的過程之中考試院可以有多一點不同的聲音這個希望副院長候選人跟你的團隊未來的團隊做妥適的商量 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1004.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1031.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
但是最近在立法院已經有送上修法而且相對來講進度最超前基本上是警察人事條例的修正方向本席是內政委員會的委員所以本席對於警消的權益一向是非常非常的關心有關於警察人事條例的修正當然也是談退休的重新檢討我想副院長候選人應該不會反對警消在工作的性質上其實跟一般的公務員還是有些差異對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1033.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1062.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
錦霄也是我過去在考選部負責這個考選的部分所以我想我對錦霄也多一些了解他在整個考試的過程還有這個訓練的過程事實上也相當辛苦當然執行上面也是這個牽涉到直接牽涉到人民的生命財產安全所以事實上在這個部分所以出任警察人員同一個職等 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1063.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1085.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
以我的了解已經比這個其他一般公務員會警察的同一個級別他的待遇大概就已經多了一萬塊我們講簡單一點他的待遇你看他的薪酬待遇比一般的公務員高的原因是什麼因為就是所謂的危險對不對然後有風險嘛對不對所以警察警校這樣他有所謂的危老早退的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1085.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1105.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
因為危險然後相對情惡繁重然後凡事都要警消來做支援對不對所以很多人其實甚至都做不滿退休年限他會有提早退休叫做所謂的危老早退他既然在現職上待遇本來就有些差異危老早退又是他的工作性質那其實在退輔制度上面這個副院長會選是否同意他應該被獨立探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1108.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1132.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
他的 我知道他的緊急加急這一部分這是講限職的嘛我現在講的是我先講退伏待會再講限職的狀況退伏的部分現在還有另外一個問題就是事實上他繳的是同樣的一個退伏對 你現在就是因為基金一包都在公價基金裡面嘛對不對但是本席認為這個一樣也是考試院應該要審慎來做思考的因為本職的性質上有非常巨大的差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1133.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1151.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那你如果因為這樣的關係你沒有辦法給予更多的照顧的話其實我覺得警消人力的缺乏那個對於社會對於治安也好對於社會穩定也好它其實是非常重大的一個打擊不只是退府制度應該要獨立調整我也希望未來的考試院在這個人事制度上面也要再次來做檢討工作的特殊性 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1152.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1174.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
讓警消他應該比如說軍人有軍人的一套系統跟規制警消難道不需要嗎人事編制上面不只是人事編制跟退伏上面嘛對不對制度上也要有一些新的做法是嗎所以報告委員所以之前其實在從考試方面我們也在思考是不是警察應該另外一個體系所以像警察大學畢業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1176.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1192.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
你會直接想他應該就是警察為什麼還要經過國家考試就是因為都是在公務員體系大家就是要一致這個我們希望未來台灣的年輕人變成加入警校加入軍人變成保駕衛國捍衛社會安全的英雄而不要變成黑幫毒販跟詐騙的這個打手 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1195.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1222.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這個其實是所有政治人物都共同希望的事情那要做到這件事情其實就在人事編制上面應該要有合理的變革跟調整去保障這樣的人的福利並且加強這個部分的人才禁用這個我想也是考試院未來應該要面對的重責大任我們也期待新任的考試院針對警消人事制度的調整提出具體而且有效的改革措施好嗎我們共同來好謝謝牛委員謝謝貝提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1224.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1227.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
報告全院委員會休息五分鐘休息之後繼續詢問現在休息 |
| IVOD_ID |
157447 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157447 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-26 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-26T15:41:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-26T16:01:44+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |