| video_url |
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| 委員名稱 |
陳培瑜 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:20:14 - 15:40:48 |
| 影片長度 |
1234 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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謝謝主席那有請備體名人副院長許舒翔副院長謝謝備體名人阿許委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
14.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
32.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
背題名人您好我想在正式詢問我們今天所有的議題之前我想邀請您跟我一起為最近勞動部勞發署分署公務員往生離開的憾事表達遺憾我相信在您過往的工作經驗長期在公務機關裡面你一定看到非常多的議題我想我們就來進行實質討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
34.782 |
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51.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
第一個我想要檢討的是其實已經非常多委員在提了不管是法規範或者是實務上的困難我們都看到了很多的困境第一個我想要談實務上到底面對了什麼困難我認為我們從例如說我在教育文化委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
52.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
80.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我們從校園裡面的霸凌防制準則在修訂的過程當中我們大家就對霸凌的定義每一個人都有不同的意見跟想像有人認為要持續一段時間但有人認為偶依為之但如果情勢非常嚴重我們就可以認定它為霸凌那我不知道目前在公務現場或者是一般的民間機構的現場對於職場霸凌的定義性規定這件事情其實目前是沒有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
81.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
96.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
實務上必須要透過法院的判決﹑或者是行政機關的行政指導來參考才能定義這件事情到底是不是霸凌那再來呢就算知道或是我是當事人我面對這個霸凌我都不是那麼確定我到底要如何處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
97.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
120.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那到底如何處理這件事情如果回到法規範他可能還要從刑事、民事還有所謂的勞動法上面尋求救濟也就是說如果有這些困難是實務法規範上的困難還有現場實務工作上的困難那到底我們還能夠怎麼來看待這件事情我想要請您表達一下你的意見我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
126.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
141.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
職場霸凌尤其是公務機關的職場霸凌應該是不應該存在因為這會影響到整體團隊的運作也會影響到政府施政的效能 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
142.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
168.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
所以應該是我們應該是要積極來面對那當然這個問題也許過去所謂職場霸凌問題所以也許在學校這個比較早去討論到這個問題確實因為學校裡面狀況非常的複雜那因為學校有教師那這個跟公務機關比較不同因為公務機關比較有層級的這個節制所以有一些問題的顯現也許比較沒有那麼立即 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
169.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
170.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
199.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
注意到各機關在落實的情形所以早上也有一些委員希望考試院未來也能夠都出去走走瞭解這個機關在這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
210.871 |
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230.352 |
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法令執行的情況不要因為考試院只是負責法制但是整個政策來講法制的規劃跟決定之後其實執行的層面也是很重要考試院要把法制的部分做好也必須要了解實際的執行情形是怎麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
231.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
257.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
聽起計程的聲音回來再做修正調整我想這樣對於公務體系整個塑造良善的一個這個友善的一個工作環境他的步調跟步伐會比較快不要等到問題產生了才來進行這個修法那有時候發生這種重大不幸真的是慢了一步所以我們希望以後如果進入考試院服務希望能夠有更積極的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
258.969 |
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275.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我其實沒有想到我今天會聽到您這麼正向的回答包含您提到了面對問題、解決問題還有你說並不要只是坐在辦公室裡面研究法規範就算您過去是所謂的考選部部長您都主動提到要多出去走走聽聽基層的聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
276.747 |
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305.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我想今天這個對話絕對是有正面的意義我想是不是也是可以代表您對於這件事情很重大的宣示跟日後假設您可以成功上任之後你務必會在這件事情上積極努力尤其是您剛說的多聽聽各個部會基層公務人員的聲音那我對這件事情也非常有期待是我想我一定會請院長讓我到基層多多聽尤其年輕公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
307.169 |
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331.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
大家這幾年比較擔心的是說我們報考國考報考人數越來越少那其實我擔心的是年輕人進公部門之後能不能待得下來會不會因為公務的環境不適應而離開那我了解現在年輕人其實他們很有想法很有價值理念所以如果是他認為做有意義的事情他就願意來來學習所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
332.305 |
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348.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
包括在人才招募的部分我也在拜託各用門機關要協助我們到學校裡面來跟這個年輕人說你到這個部門你到內政部來做什麼你到外交部是做什麼不是我們考檢部去說你要怎麼考試而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
349.469 |
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377.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
讓年輕人找到進入公部門的時代意義在哪裡為民、為國家服務所以我想去為什麼我接受總統這個提名也是希望以前我在考選部沒辦法做的那未來也希望說這個能夠讓考選部這邊召考進來的年輕公務人員能夠願意留在公部門繼續來為國家、為人民努力所以這一方面我想會積極來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
378.687 |
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406.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我剛剛花了這麼多時間讓被提名人您把您的理念說得很清楚那我自己也做了一些筆記我非常感動你說你想要陪伴年輕人找到在這個時代進入公務機關工作的時代意義我覺得這件事情也非常重要我們來看下一頁為什麼我說它很重要呢因為如同今天早上開始非常多委員的槌尋其實都提到相關法規範確實出現一些困境我們來從一些實務現場開始看我現在的投影片展現這一張是 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
408.277 |
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419.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我就不說是什麼部門了齁但是就是在這兩天D卡上當有人發文說呢他過去工作的公務機構裡面他的長官呢黨商調是基本 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
420.814 |
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444.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
就是說不讓他轉到別的單位去我看你已經皺眉頭了齁那結果這個文章一出來呢底下不僅有很多留言回覆甚至有很多人留言說他也曾經從那個公務機關逃出來但是在那個文章當中他其實還寫得蠻清楚其實知道人就一看就知道是什麼機關但是我們今天就不多說如果後續您對於這個議題有興趣我們可以再提供資料給您 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
445.373 |
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461.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
但是我要講這個事情他非常荒謬的是這算不算是一種職場霸凌又回到我剛剛講定義的問題了還有甚至他想要請調然後對方的主管也已經同意但是他的這個原來部位原來的主管卻不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
461.744 |
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482.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那他到底是用什麼樣的理由 擋住了這個公務人員要往下一站去的這個方向那我認為對於公務人員任用法 還有該法的實行細則在實務運作上 看起來也遇到了困境甚且讓我們覺得更害怕的是 這個被爆料的人這個長官 他還得過模範公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
484.42 |
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513.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以我才會說這是一個這應該不會只是一個個案我甚且認為它搞不好會是很多公務機關裡面基層的公務員他們正在面臨的困境但是因為在您剛剛所有的回答當中我都認為您願意直接面對問題解決問題這確實是我們現在需要看到你們的肩膀但在公務人員任用法跟該法的實行細則您就過去在考選部的經驗您有沒有什麼建議或者是您目前有什麼可能的規劃是依目前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
514.591 |
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| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
法規的確是因為尊重用人機關的考量所以他是有可以不同意他商調的這個權益那也許對於主管來講有時候你表現非常優秀那如果你離開可能如果是的話當然是正向的啦所以也不要完全把它想成是負面的但是我覺得這個部分是有檢討空間因為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
543.307 |
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567.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
最近因應這個友善的一個生養環境：所以也放寬了限制轉調的規定讓年輕公園不要等到這個三年限制轉調六年限制轉調如果說因為你要照顧小孩可以有適當的一個轉調的機制但是也碰上了主管雖然法說你可以申請商調那你也找到了但是也碰到主管不讓你去 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
568.598 |
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591.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那這個部分可能也就是說我也就是說為什麼我們要多出去聽一下那如果說這樣的一個情形非常多那我們立這個法規修改的一個美意就不見了如果我們對於友善的一個生養環境真的是非常重要我們是不是要考量到如果是依這個條款來申請商調的主管不得拒絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
594.78 |
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615.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個是聽起來是您目前針對這個案子﹖或者是就您以前接觸到的經驗﹖你所做出來的回答﹖但如同您說的﹖其實您跟我都不真的那麼瞭解公務人員在基層的現場﹖所以未來如果您上任﹖我真的希望您可以做到您今天所承諾的﹖你希望多出去走一走﹖當然今天這個個案呢﹖我不會認為它是個案﹖因為我剛剛已經說在底下留言﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
616.107 |
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635.611 |
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有非常多人就明白指出他也曾經待過那個單位但主管為什麼不讓他請調走我相信原因一定很多非常的複雜但我們到下一頁我希望站在公務人員保障法的精神目前我們的法規範裡面其實只有規範到應該提供給公務員安全跟衛生的防護措施並且授權相關機關訂定辦法可是實務上 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
638.312 |
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656.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
當相關機關或是防護措施沒有依法辦理的時候卻沒有相關的法規範我想您過去來自考選部您一定對於這個議題很有感另外當然至於怎麼修法的部分今天也很多委員談了但您剛也做了承諾後續不管從哪裡修法我想我們都會支持好 那我們來看下一題 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
657.967 |
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673.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
其實也有很多委員提到關於少子女化的問題其實您剛剛本人也有提到但是我們發現其實還有另外一個很大的困境以我們自己最熟悉教育部跟文化部的業務我們發現因為總原額法的限制導致於行政機關的原額沒有辦法符合工作量 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
674.369 |
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693.675 |
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但現在有這麼多龐大的公務量必須只能符合總原額法的情況之下就產生了很多非典型禁用的問題我想這個你一定非常清楚而這個非典型禁用會不會剛好就是造成這個職場霸凌的困境的主要原因之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
694.255 |
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708.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那我想就這件事情上如果就國家的整體財政緣額編制上我們確實不能加人也沒有辦法再加錢或者是搞不好連報加班費都有問題但是卻有這麼多公務的內容需要完成我們到底可以怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
710.99 |
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737.066 |
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所以這個總研合法的部分我是不了解有沒有這個檢討的空間但是的確我們這種研合法的一個限制底下的情況造成這個約聘後這個約僱人員的增加甚至有我了解有一部分目前是用計劃案的方式來禁用人員那有一部分用這個計劃案禁用的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
738.049 |
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763.599 |
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他的薪資大致上是比我們初等考試剛進來的他的那個薪資還高所以也造成這個願意來考初等考試成為專職工這個的一個人員的一個影響所以這部分可能未來我想如果有機會到這個考試院之後也希望跟相關的機關大家共同再來這個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
764.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
787.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
等一下等一下但是我並不希望您因此回頭去調整所謂計劃案所約聘進來的人他們的起薪你要把它往下壓這應該不是我們的本意但是因為你剛講到這邊我非常的害怕是要更好是要更好但是如何讓不管是考進正式考進公務機關的正式公務員或者是相關計劃案或者是約聘人力或者是非典型金融我認為我們公務機關真的要認真回頭面對這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
791.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
805.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那我們來回頭看一下所以為了回應這個問題我們看到考試院其實在2021年3月2月3號你們就成立了考試院數位轉型委員會那當時呢規劃是由院長擔任主任委員領導數位 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
807.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
828.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
主要的任務包含建構院部會資訊安全聯防體系國家考試電腦化公務人力資訊整合國家考試及格證書數位化做了很多很多事情那我想要問假設您未來上任之後你對於這個考試院數位轉型委員會就您過去考選部的工作經驗你還有沒有更多的規劃跟想像 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
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我想這個部分應該我們會持續下去因為這是一個剛開始的起步那不可能說過去這幾年就這一部分全部完成還是要持續不斷的那會做這個數位轉型包括考試院其實有很多的這個資料但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
849.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
864.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
沒有把它這個做數位的資料庫那任何的決策的一個進行應該要有相關的一個數據這個evidence base這樣的一個決策依據所以我們透過這樣的一個建立之後未來在相關的決策 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
865.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
882.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
會比較知道一些相關的法規的修訂應該怎麼做所以我想這件事情我們還是會持續來加強但是面對新時代其實數位轉型可能是我們前一波在講的那也就是所謂的平面 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
883.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
901.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
指本的資料實體的資料數位化就如同我們知道其實考試院保存了上萬件也許是十萬件沒有領走的證書這件事情其實之前你們新聞稿有講過所以做數位化應該是最簡單但是面對AI時代這個議題不知道你有沒有什麼想像所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
901.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
918 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
AI的部分能夠應用的部分來協助提升行政效能的部分當然我們會應用不過我們某一部分也要審慎像我在考選部工作的時候我會提醒命題委員不能用check GPT因為那可能會造成洩體的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
919.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
945.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
但是這一部分未來我們如果是要提升一些相關的命題品質某一部分也是可能會應用AI可是我們要建立自己的一個系統我們自己輔助業界的系統或者是用AI來做命題的系統而不是用外面公開的這個系統所以怎麼樣應用我想各部會各機關有一些不同業務的性質要去做一些適當的契格 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
946.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
955.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以您大概也有心理準備如果您正式走馬上任之後應該這個AI的議題也是跑不掉的大功課對但是可以應用的部分我想我們也都會盡量來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
957.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
985.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那我們想跟你討論一樣是跟科技發展有關其實台灣這幾年公務人員考選除了那個人數瑞簡跟少子化當然有關係之外我們來回頭看一下您過往在擔任考選部部長的任內您有提到希望用計畫來強化學考訓勇的連結我們覺得這件事情非常的重要那您當時甚至提出跟許多大學合作建立預備文官團希望讓大學生有志於公職的人提早準備不用經過過多的補習 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
988.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1010.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
可是我們來看一下相關的數字從2020年報考人數是83,616人到2024年只剩下66,702人除了報名人數的下降之外有另外一個問題我個人認為如果我們來看現在的學考訓用有一個比較大的困境是錄取不足額的部分我們來看錄取不足額20類科 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1012.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1034.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
均為技術類科對您頻頻點頭所以您非常清楚這個困境我們來看一下高考三級缺最多的就是高考三級的土木工程水力工程還有機械工程您知道原因嗎為什麼這三個技術類科的缺額最高我想這個公職的技術類科某一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1034.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1060.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
事實上他也跟這個市場上的專技人員有相互聯動的關係所以像土木工程來講有土木工程技師所以當外面的土木工程技師的條件待遇好的時候進入工部門的考土木工程的人就會減少那尤其這個土木工程的我想大家也都有聽過事實上他的工作風險程度相當的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1061.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1061.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1077.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1092.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
也許不要再考這個普考的部分了所以你目前有這樣的規劃跟想像在我們這個對話當中你有這個靈感國家的人才需求有一些如果是這個你有重要需求的人才他的職等應該是要做適當的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1092.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1122.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
好所以是科目的部分跟職等的部分其實你剛舉了土木工程我剛還跟你分享還有水利工程跟機械工程但是你剛剛有說實話你說因為業界條件跟待遇其實可能比我們公務機關更好所以那年輕人不管是就業的選擇或者是因為待遇的選擇他就不選擇到這裡來那您剛剛說因為我說你有做過去有做過預備文官團那因為但是因為疫情的關係後來就停擺了目前您覺得如果在您走馬上任之後有可能會繼續規劃或是往這裡去想像嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1123.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1146.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
坦白說我要誠實跟委員說以前在考選部的組織法裡面事實上是沒有人才招募的考選部基本上就是把考試辦好就好人家要不要來報名是他自己決定但是時代改變了所以我們需要積極去跟大學裡面的尋找人才所以我認為這件事情是正面的我才拿出來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1152.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1166.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
以我們目前的國情絕對做不到有沒有可能臺大土木工程系畢業的或是臺大土木工程系畢業前10名他如果要來加入我們土木工程我們還要他考8個科目嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1168.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1191.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
但是如果在國家考試的公平性我們好像也不能在這裡說不要考嘛對不對所以就是不能說不要考而且他當年高分考上台大土木不代表他四年畢業後依然認真優秀嘛我想我們必須要減少這些考試的障礙尤其年輕人有些目前的統計平均高考三期大概要兩年三年考兩次三次我想這樣的一個障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1192.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1218.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
在時代變成年輕人的想法改變他要等待這麼久、準備這麼久他去公部門就第一張他過去的寫經歷就好那進公部門還要報名會去業界應徵不用報名會所以這些障礙我們都應該要做一些適當調整所以我們也做了好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1223.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1230.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝被庭人下一位我們請劉許廷委員詢問 |
| IVOD_ID |
157446 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157446 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-26 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-26T15:20:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-26T15:40:48+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |