| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5185545278ec5b40d611ef4e5608ba9d1bbb2820cd090d8fe343af858ec3055550af9c3d7560ef6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:59:34 - 15:20:09 |
| 影片長度 |
1235 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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來先請副院長備提名人我們請備提名人許先生答詢委員長備提名人好我先請你看一個畫面齁幾個月前國的焦點都在這個勞動部這個霸凌這個案子左邊這個花 |
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有很多民眾還有包括被霸凌輕生的公務員的朋友他們到勞動部送花致哀我看了一幅畫跟他們拍回來的照片我非常的感動這個照片上面說送給老吳老吳就是這個不幸的公務員 |
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我們沒有忘記你的善良你總是處處替人著想卻不說其實你也遍體淋傷左邊這一個讓我看了更心疼更心痛了我們的公務人員說嘛他說我是公務人員我想好好活著副院長被提名人你今天被提名了你看到這幾個字特別是我們的公務員想要好好活著 |
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不是只有勞動部這段時間衛福部、中友台電那個霸凌案件這麼多你看了有沒有很心疼有沒有想要怎麼樣去保障我們的公務員我想這個 |
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發生這樣的事件尤其我們這位優秀年輕公務員的不幸當然是站在尤其是我負責過去負責這個考試院公務人才一直在積極鼓勵公務人員年輕優秀人才加入公部門來服務感受特別的深 |
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所以希望這個如果是因為霸凌產生這樣的一個不幸事件希望以後在公部門不要再發生這種事情我們今天要談的就是怎麼樣不要再發生這樣的憾事我們要來建立反霸凌的一個安全網可是我必須講 |
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你以前是考選部的部長阿你應該有很大的責任喔你現在責任又更重了副院長的被提名人我們要問這個安全網為什麼一直有大的這個漏洞我們來看一下這個辦法公務金管的安全跟衛生防護辦法這是科技營的辦法對不對你看一下這個保障的這個措施一共有四項對不對你看它違反了幾項這次光是勞動部這個霸凌事件違反了幾項 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
169.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
194.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
第2項輪班、夜間工作、長時間工作等異常工作﹑負荷﹑促發疾病的預防他有沒有長時間工作有對不對現在披露的真相這個老吳吳姓公務員很多時間早上5點就上班了晚上8點才下班他還必須要被迫假打卡增加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
196.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
222.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這條公怎麼這麼慘被霸凌成這樣子違反了這個辦法的第二項對不對第三項有沒有違反第三項你看一下執行職務怎麼樣精神上身體上應該都會有壓力遭受身體或精神不法的侵犯的預防他有沒有受到身體跟精神上不法的侵犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
224.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
242.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
有嘛所以剛剛第二項已經違反了你們考試院訂了一個法他違反了第二第三條的第二項第三項第四項也沒有違反第四項也違反啊那我就要問啊北京議員您科技提出的辦法出來為什麼沒辦法落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
244.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
244.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
264.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
289.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
觀念更認為這個圖法不足以執行所以你再有完善的法規如果是你不去執行好好的執行落實事實上有這個法規也沒用就像我們最近有放寬了這個工人這個限制轉調限制轉調讓有生小孩的他為了照顧小孩可以提前去做轉調但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
291.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
312.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
他可以提出申請但是機關首長不准這個就是全國民眾現在要問你跟問考試院的你們為什麼訂了一個法又有一個辦法結果來發生不是只有勞動部的霸凌事件全國有那麼多他至少有兩個點嘛第一個等一下我們進一步來討論你們的法裡面沒有法則嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
313.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
339.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
沒有我們行政監督也沒有行政方案我們要進一步來討論要怎麼來立這個法修這個法好不好那我們先來看因為有這樣的缺失所以今天我們等一下希望你可以明確的承諾你如果當選了你接了這個副院長之後你怎麼去把這個安全網把它補起來這是你今天的重責大任那我進一步先給你看因為這個漏洞一直都沒有補對台灣發生多大的傷害你看看一條人命 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
342.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
370.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
丟臉就丟到國外去了連新加坡的聯絡早報都在說說臺灣啊庫利重創臺灣的人權形象我們這幾天那麼高興我們終於棒球隊得了一個冠軍回來現在臺灣人多團結多快樂啊可是想到這個都心酸你看那個南華南華早報那下他說嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
371.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
391.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
他直接批評說臺灣政府部門的官僚霸凌其實就是官官相輔的一個文化還有包庇刑境不只是霸凌盛行、恨行喔他裡面講的是什麼臺灣來官官相輔臺灣現在的各個部會為什麼出現這種狀況為什麼這麼嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
398.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
415.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
跟委員報告坦白說這個法制的部分不足的部分當然是要想辦法再努力來補足不過就現行的法制像霸凌這個問題尤其是我講實話這個以勞動部是主管這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
421.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
447.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
企業職長霸凌的這個機關嘛他們對所謂的職長霸凌應該是更有警戒性更有敏感度才對那這個問題可以放得這麼久我肯定你你長久是為這個社會付出很多特別考檢部長你也是非常努力的可是今天這個爆發出來這個不是只有勞動部的霸凌事件你看這樣雨後春筍這樣直接擺起來對不對這個已經是個非常嚴重問題丟人就丟到國外去啦所以我們現在去面對問題要去解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
450.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
476.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好不好來我們看一下怎麼解來你剛剛在講勞工的這個保障勞動部那邊有立法人家勞動部那邊還有一個行政院那邊有一個職場安全衛生法對不對考試院立了什麼法公務人員保障法保障法空的啊第77條說你如果受到管理上的不當你可以申訴再申訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
478.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
500.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
不是現在的官場裡面有多少人被霸凌敢講所以這個地方要好好再去修嘛要訂一個77條之一你要怎麼讓他申訴包括他如果再申訴就到你的考試院的保訓會嘛對不對你要有一個很明確的一個規範而且能夠保障我們被霸凌的人好不好這一條你要去努力77條之一蓮花你看19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
502.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
527.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
你的保障法的第19條公務人員執行職務之安全應以保障．各機關對於公務人員執行職務．應提供安全跟衛生的防護措施．其相關辦法．由考試院會同行政院定之抗議嘛沒有法則嘛你對照左邊你看你在保障勞工那一塊職業安全衛生法 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
529.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
552.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
他有行政監督對不對有行事法還有行政法你看他的職安法第36條你看他規範的多明確包括違反的時候還有行事法者第4條跟41人家42跟48都有行有行政法有這個行事法結果你們的公務人員保障法是空的 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
554.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
577.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以今天你有幸被提名為副院長的被提名人以前你在考選部部長又是有貢獻的今天你能不能非常明確的當著全國民眾的這個面前你當選完之後上任副院長你會對於反霸凌的安全網去把它整體的把它建構起來減少我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
578.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
605.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
各個部會的霸凌事件那至少有兩個事情是要做我剛講的公務人員的保障法裡面該修的東西要修好不好是 我很抱歉早上周院長被庭人也做了承諾啦要盡快來處理這個問題院長早上有承諾他會努力嘛你今天也公開承諾你會努力對不對我會協助院長積極來這個完成我很明確跟你看一下台灣民眾黨的提案我們針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
608.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
637.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
公務員保障增修第19條之一的這個條文這裏面講的都是法則你本來的法是空的依照臺灣民眾黨的公務人員保障法增修條文這裏面有違反的處以新台幣3萬元以上30萬元以下更重要的裏面如果牽扯到發生了死亡災害的時候處3年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
641.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
669.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
為什麼這次勞動部的這個事件會發生第一個沒有吹哨者保護法所以發生問題的時候大家靜若寒蟬不敢講話對不對所以吹哨者保護法要趕快立法要通過這是一個第二個你們執掌的考試院執掌的公務人員保障法要趕快修好不好另外我提個法公務人員的這個升遷法第7條目前在台灣這個公務人員只要當到主管職 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
670.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
690.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
他沒有經過申選的時候他的領導能力是沒有被評比的對不對這是第7條第1項的規定我明確的要求這邊霸領的就是長官嘛 對不對分署長、霸領、署下嘛那主管以後應該經過評比所以我明確的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
691.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
712.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
升遷法第7條第1項：裡面包括後來的第10條跟第3條按明確規定第一項免經甄選的職務特別是主管職務以後要評比他的領導能力好不好我把這個書面等一下會送給你一方面是我們剛提的修正案一方面是升遷法的第10條第3項好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
715.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
743.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們會積極來研議處理我們透過法令透過制度面來共同解決問題我們把這個安全網把他架構起來好不好是另外一個問題我要請教一塊我來我有一個評論你看一下前勞動部長他下台前那禮拜你打選的時候他講了一段話我今天想跟你共同來討論一共他第一次進入行政部門就是他當了勞動部的這個部長的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
745.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
772.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
他本來想跟文官發展出合作的友善關係可是呢他負累了當今文官體系有著難以掌控的弱習跟惡習甚至是來自於不曾想像的邪惡你跟考選部長那麼久你今天又被逼提名我們的文官體系有不曾想像的邪惡嗎我想我在考選部沒有碰到 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
774.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
802.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個我們考試院部的同仁都是相當這個積極團隊合作沒有吧對所以你不認同這句話我覺得這主管的帶領事實上時代改變了這個時代不應該是用指揮命令的方式在帶領這個公務團隊應該是用這個溝通說服的方式尤其是如果公務人員你交辦的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
802.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
830.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
他們在執行上出了問題來請求你的協助你不是推薦而已你是在想辦法怎麼幫他把這個問題處理好所以我們的文官我們的公務人員們沒有邪惡吧沒有對不對我想絕大部分的都是非常好奉公守法是為民服務嘛是是來我另外要請教一下你什麼時候收到我們台灣民眾黨的問卷你上個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
832.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
848.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
總統府的秘書長他們陪著你們來拜會的時候你什麼時候收到我們的問卷?有點記不太清楚是8月初嗎?被委切有點記不太清楚抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
850.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
878.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
8月1號台灣民眾黨是這一次考試委員審查先提議的我們說要審考試委員要趕快審而且要審好審滿第二個我們是最早提出問卷送給你們的8月1號啊所以你8月初就拿到了啊你什麼時候回給我們應該是昨天經由總統府我8月1號給你啊你昨天下午才給我我今天站在這邊問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
880.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
908.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個有達到實質審查的是破壞了實質審查報告委員現在這個新的法修正通過這個有一個慣例建立起來我想以後大家就會照做了那因為當時我們只收到民眾黨沒有收到其他的政黨所以是不是對其他的政黨如果只有回覆一個政黨這樣不公平我們最早送你說要等國民黨或民進黨來再一起回答這樣不行啦裡面最重要的關鍵是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
910.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
934.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
考試院是憲政的獨立機關對不對你以前考選部長你是總統派的喔你現在角色已經轉變了喔你以前是總統派不要經過立法院同意對不對你現在是考試院的副院長跟所有考試委員都是獨立機關喔你雖然是總統提名了你是經過我們立法院的同意你才能夠上任喔你的角色已經完全是不一樣是改變的喔好 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
936.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
943.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
所以總統府叫你不能簽你就在那裡等你那乖如果因為這樣子立法院不讓你通過你會死嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
944.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
969.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
更重要的你看以前的行政院長要經過立法院同意那個權力很大你現在是總統提名完之後你是獨立機關喔立法院通過你要是走路是有方的所以請你的角色要轉變好不好是 制度明確我們都會照這個明確制度來走所以這個問卷怎麼這麼久呢這個問卷是好像你是考試院就像考試那個收卷的鈴已經鈴聲響了好幾天了 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
971.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
993.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我8月1號給你你中間有個卡一個說什麼要等過憲法法庭那個判決嘛那也是10月25號就過了嘛對不對所以你的文件少晚了給我們一個月跟委員抱歉不過我們這個非常感謝這個大宴還有各黨團提出的問題讓我們也有機會再進一步思考未來要做的這個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
996.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1021.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個角色認定要做些改變好不好你不是總統提名就當選了啦最重要你是憲政的獨立機關你除了專業之外你獨立性跟公正性是要在的所以我要問你一個很重要的年金改革啊你知道董初考試院版送到立法院的時候他的年金的替代率定多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1024.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1050.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那時候我是政務次長沒有參與我注意這80嘛備戰嘛考試院的版本包括那時候的總統府有這個年金的小組對不對年金改革小組嘛他送到立法院的時候106年上來立法院姓名犧牲替代率是80%然後每一年降1%他替代率到底就是70% |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1052.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1080.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
可是那時候發生政治事件嘛那時候有個立法人叫段宜康段宜康說什麼只能是一場寸土不讓的戰爭他說外面有進攻者在抗議所以要砍得更兇啊所以後來沒有用考試院的版本喔那現在聯進改革也不是考試院的版本喔是段宜康的版本欸那時候民進黨絕對多數啊所以把本來的考試院版推翻了所以他從75%開始一年不是砍1%砍1.5% |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1084.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1095.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
你要不要回去捍衛一下看你當初考試院的版本你現在是考試院的副院長要照顧退休的進攻教好不好我會再做整體的了解當初 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1097.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1126.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
民進黨那時候是68期他絕對多數所以他等於是推翻了考試院版而且這個法令裡面很重要的年金改革是經過五年之後要重新要再檢討一次到去年都已經五年了有沒有好去檢討所以不要每次都講什麼年金你如果改了之後會破產我們最近每年都超收很多錢然後通膨那麼嚴重很多的退休金工教確實現在生活也不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1127.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1141.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
特別你現在是考試院的副院長請你回去看一下當初的考試院的版本而且裡面有規定五年他是要有一個檢討的好不好另外我問你一個消防人員的炮灰行在的問題他們現在爭取要組工會你贊不贊成我想這個問題這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1151.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1173.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
大家可以討論你不見得要贊成那如果不贊成你到底有沒有比較好可以去保護他呢因為歐美很多國家的相關人員都可以組工會嘛我是說我不見得說就是說你如果不贊成你總要有一套方法去幫忙這些打火兄弟我的了解是考試院已經有送出一個公務人協會法的一個版本到大宴來這邊透過協會這邊來補強是不是那協會這邊也放寬了這個結社權跟協商的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1180.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1208.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我想當然公務人協會法從95年制定到目前的成效坦白說是不好所以我希望這個修法之後那考試院這邊應該要去追蹤各部會的一個推行的情況公務人協會法那這個觀察它的從這邊我想相信如果是大家落實執行應該是對未來公務人的權益的保障會更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1208.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1230.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那公會這邊未來也不是完全沒有討論空間而是要看他們對人民的影響所以今天最重要反霸凌這個保護法這一定要修法趕快把它補強要有行動方案好謝謝張委員謝謝被提名的人下一位我們請陳培宇委員詢問 |
| IVOD_ID |
157445 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157445 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-26 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-26T14:59:34+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-26T15:20:09+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |