| IVOD_ID |
15744 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15744 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-26-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-21T08:31:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-21T12:43:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:11:25 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6853eeb1788be93c5d567ad8ab126936a2d3be8d109af184be44636b08dc21144015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、農業部、國家發展委員會、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「加速推動再生能源對國土環境之影響及環境影響評估認定標準修訂進度」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【3月20日及21日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:35 - 12:43:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1776.26 |
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好現在繼續開會本日議程為邀請環境部部長、經濟部、農業部、國家發展委員會、行政院國家永續發展委員會就加速推動再生能源對國土環境之影響及環境影響評估認定標準修訂進度進行專題報告．並備質詢現在介紹在場的委員及列席的官員陳昭之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1805.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1825.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
黃秀芳委員林月琴委員王振旭委員介紹與會列席的官員環境部薛富聖部長環境保護司蔡夢玉司長大氣環境司陳宜嘉專門委員沒有到 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1835.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1838.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
那個大家語彙要準時齁監測資訊司陳信雄專門委員資源循環署賴盈盈署長環境管理署顏旭明署長氣候變遷署黃偉明副署長經濟部林全能常務次長能源署游政委署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1865.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1882.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
產業發展署周宇欣副署長產業園區管理局劉季傳副局長水利署李佩雲副組長國營事業管理司黃旭輝專門委員排電公司郭芳楠專業總工程師 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1892.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1921.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
中由謝茂傑副處長、農業部資源永續利用司莊老達司長、漁業署陳文生組長、農村發展及水土保持署尹孝元副組長、林業及自然保育署黃敬彥檢任記者、 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1924.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1925.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
有到場嗎?國家發展委員會經濟發展處吳明慧處長國土區域理老發展處呂登元參事行政院國家永續發展會秘書處吳明慧代表接下來我們就請環境部學部長報告時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1959.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1980.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
主席、各位委員、女士、先生、大家早。環境部緊就貴委員會針對加速推動再生能源對國土環境的影響以及環境影響評估認定標準修訂進度做專題報告。那我們在環評法裡面針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1984.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2004.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
包括能源開發、交通建設、園區開發等水利工程都要求要實施環境影響評估那對於能源開發裡面特別是針對再生能源的部分應該要進行環境評估的包括水利發電 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2005.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2025.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
離岸風力發電、陸域風力發電、太陽光電發電以及潮汐發電跟地熱發電那其中針對委員所關心的有關太陽光電發電的部會只規範位於重要失地的這一塊要來進行做環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2026.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2039.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那到目前為止從105年到113年2月份我們再生能源經過環評的總共47件次包括李安風電40件路易風電6件以及滴熱花電1件 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2044.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2069.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我們大家都知道說因為現在的認定範圍裡面對太陽光電只有重要勢力的這個部分可是在這個審查過程當中目前台灣在再生能源包括風力跟光電的部分事實上經濟部能源署他們也都根據 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2070.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2082.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
設置地面型太陽光電設施景觀以及生態環境審定原則還有包括在儀聖宮殿方面太陽光電環境與社會檢核機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2085.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2107.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
都有來進行希望能夠盡量維持既有地形地貌以及保護生態環境的一個要求那雖然經過經濟部能源署的這個審核之外呢在荷花籌設許可之後事實上太陽光電設施假如涉及區域計劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2109.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2128.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
灰都市土地使用管制規則、水土保持法、水利法、原住民基本法、海岸管理法等等．換籌,它還是要按照既有的規定來做審議。那整個太陽光電的整個審議過程就請各位委員來參考。 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2130.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2159.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
未來我們在整個太陽光電環評根據過去一段時間也來自各界的一個反應包括民團、企業以及相關部位的反應所以我們目前規劃朝著兩個方向來進行第一個方向就是納入光電業者假如他設置的規模達到一定的面積或者設置容量以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2160.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2175.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
都要實施環評的一個要求那第二個呢我們希望能夠來加嚴管制太陽光電設置裡面所涉及的環境敏感區位同時也納入包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2176.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2193.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
山坡地、特定農業區的農業用地、國家公園、野生動物保護區、野生動物重要棲息環境、臺灣沿海地區自然環境保護計畫合併公告的自然保護環境等區位 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2195.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2212.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們部里現在正在積極就開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目以及範圍認定標準來收集各界的意見希望能夠在今年7月底就能夠辦理草案的議告 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2213.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2238.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
然後一告60天之後呢我們召開延伸會議那邀請機關團體民眾大家來交換意見那希望能夠在12月底以前來完成來修法公布以上謝謝各位請委員指教好謝謝部長請回座有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2239.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2268.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點半截止法案員登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息5分鐘那今天上午如果未能詢答完畢於11點半左右臨時提案處理結束後今天中午會先休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2269.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2274.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
到下午1點半繼續進行詢答好 那我們現在對 原則上11點半要處理臨時提案請委員就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2282.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2307.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
盡早提出一例議事的進行那我再重複一遍就是如果我們上午巡打沒有結束的話我們到臨時提案處理完畢之後過中午12點我們可能就會先休息到下午1點半再繼續巡打所以今天中午官員有時間可以先休息那我們現在就請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2313.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2320.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
謝謝主席有請經濟部次長跟能源署署長好來請我們次長跟署長上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2324.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2327.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
市長過去主張2025年這個再生能源發電量要達20%但是根據這個圖像這個左方110年度全國電力資源供需的報告卻預估114年才能僅達到15.5%百分比 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2344.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2362.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以就是一直沒辦法達到目標然後一直下修這是第一件事第二個2022年3月國發會更是在2050這個近年碳排的路徑中誇口表示2050年將會把再生能源的佔率提高到60到70個百分比 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2363.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2383.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那2022年這個10月其實立院的預算中心就有表示當時的能源局規劃的目標跟實際上發電的比率實在是差很大就是有做過的提醒再來就是2023年到去年再生能源發電比率僅佔9.47百分比請問市長你要怎麼在短短的這個兩年內彌補這10.5百分比的一個落差跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2392.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2417.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
確實短缺呢好謝謝委員我想這個部分是我們所訂定的目標那這個目標達成事實上我們也有一定具體的計畫在往前邁進不要說我們的太陽光電跟這個離岸風電會在這一兩年之間有大量的一個這樣的一個設置跟並往霸電尤其是離岸風電的一個部分那我想這個部分就是我們也詳細的推估那事實上以2025年的目標應該並往 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2419.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2445.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
病亡會在2025年我們繼續觀察就是說訂的目標跟實際情形的落差的情形一直在實現我們也是每年在檢視而且每年檢視也在滾動去做這個加獎推動工作蘇前院長他承諾太陽光電在2025年的裝置容量可望達到20GW那經濟部次長曾文森也在去年說這個目標沒有改變可是我們卻還是從經濟部能源署的資料網上看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2445.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2469.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
到今年1月為止才是12個居高外才6成這個目標根本沒有達到再來就是說我還是再次要呼籲這個貴部沒有辦法兌現的承諾就不要輕易的開公投支票也不要在媒體提供這個不符實情的訊息讓國人以為我們的光電這個發展是進步神速好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2470.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2494.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我想這個目標訂定是不是我們要努力的方向那事實上我剛剛報告過我們都有掌握每一年度可以設置的這太陽光電的一個所要的一個面積或土地以及相關的一個這個實質的一個進展狀況那當然以目前為止截至到113年是並往是12.46GW但是我們有完全掌握到2025的20GW但是我們就看到不斷的下修嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2495.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2501.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那再來是不是請環境部部長也上那次長跟請先留步好留步好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2506.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2527.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
部長再生能源的拓展本來是個美意就是希望能夠創造人類永遠經營的一個生存環境那在近年碳排的國家政治上為了減少化石燃料發電所造成的污染所以推動了這個再生能源跟綠能那麼我想請問環境部認同拿林地跟綠地去變成光電廠的這樣的做法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2528.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2531.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我同時就請問部長跟次長這個鳳林光電的爭議這個大型開發案闖入了花東縱谷最美麗的一片土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2553.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2574.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
造成這片土地林地被砍發、農地被破壞這樣的行為絲毫不尊重地方發展的意願而且也凸顯我們政府沒有做好這個政策指引就是人民光電廠商想在哪裡開發就在哪裡開發已經嚴重影響這個臺灣曾經引以為傲的一個生態環境難道這是我們想要的再生能源嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2576.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2596.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
請問部長跟次長是否承諾針對這些業者我們需要更加有限制性的更加強制性的規範呢我們目前事實上是沒有接到這個案子的一個環評書要審查的部分所以是假如他們有在規劃我想我們會特別來 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2597.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2598.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這不是新的事件?對,所以他們還沒有送進來,所以我們還沒有接到 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2623.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2650.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
相較於砍樹砍農地這種電性破壞國土環境來換取力能的做法我認為去年行政院提案然後立法院三讀通過的這個再生能源發展條例修法他強制要求剛剛有他為報告一定規模的新建建築物必要裝置屋頂型的太陽光墊或許這是比較適當的一個做法但是我們也知道過去這幾年中央政府到地方政府都有透過補助的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2651.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2679.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
也鼓勵既有的社區大樓是不是能夠利用屋頂來架設這個太陽能光電但是從去年開始有些地方就停止了以台中市為例我這邊有接到陳情就是說有地方有社區有意願架設但是台中市政府說因為中央補助停止了所以他沒有辦法接受這樣的受理陳情所以我想請教的是目前中央對於既有建築物的光電設施補助還在持續嗎你們還在鼓勵地方的政府繼續推動嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2681.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2702.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我想跟委員報告事實上推動這個太陽光電尤其是這個屋頂型太陽光電事實上我們最主要的一個incentive是短購匯率對這種屋頂型的短購匯率我們會給予比較高的一個這個發電的一個短購匯率即使這才是真正來這個促進業者或者是民眾來設這個屋頂型太陽光電的主力 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2703.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2721.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那至於補助的部分我所知道是地方政府他們會依地方政府特色來做補助那委員剛剛你提到的部分我們可以來跟地方政府來做更進一步的溝通我讓市長知道說我從能源署太陽光電單一服務窗口的網站我看到目前到就是到去年為止只剩下雙北屏東苗栗10個地方政府還在推動補助計畫那台中新竹縣確實是沒有的所以市長是不是應該跟這些地方政府討論一下繼續進行補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2730.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2738.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
就是說讓有意願的社區大樓也能夠有機會加入建築物有光電的這樣的架設行列那你這個溝通可以什麼時候來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2739.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2764.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我想我請我們那個能源署這邊我了解一下這個進度我們如果安排好再跟委員做一個報告好我需要知道這個進度好再來這個請教次長我要跟您請教地熱發電的部分2022年監察院有一份調查報告針對這個地熱發電的推動進度嚴重的落後要求經濟部跟行政院能夠重視跟檢討那經濟部在2019年有修訂再生能源條例還有發表能源轉型白皮書 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2765.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2770.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
他制定的裝置容量目標是2020年要達到150MW2025年要達到20MW這個數字是在白皮書裡面但是真相呢?真相呢?好,我們看下一張我上台電的網站去看目前唯一的地熱發展在宜蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2785.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2790.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
到今年2月2月上個月為止數字才0.84MW距離2022年已經過去的政策目標150欸差很大欸差很大欸這個差異高達150倍啊為什麼次長跳票這麼嚴重呢這麼嚴重呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2804.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2829.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我想跟委員報告地熱的這個發電他必須經過探勘其實最主要的部分就是探勘的部分遇到一些這個比較挑戰的一個這樣的一個情形那我們修那個再生能源發展條例也是把探勘的部分能夠來做講話其實就是我說嘛就一個承諾一個目標但是後來都是一直在達不到然後下修齁因為這個2019年修過一次法嘛當時這個政策目標就定在那裡但是如果你明知道2019年齁這個修法無法順利推動的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2832.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2841.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那就當時要處理啊不是到2023才再次去修法所以既然你提到這個這些事情我就要請問後續的執法問題去年的再生能源這個發展這個條例修法後那經濟部是有在1月26年能源署有公布這個地熱開發辦法齁其中第7條有關那個暗場的艱鉅這個稍微困難一點不得低於500公尺的部分齁但是我要請教這張簡報齁這張簡報 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2858.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2863.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
就是說暗場兼具500公尺的距離這個規範因為因應這個斜景因為穿探的時候不可能是直的嘛就一直這個斜斜的下去那從井頭到這個我們這個井的末端這個所謂的這個開篩段取熱的開篩段往地表應該要進行一個3D的投影有一定的面積計算之後再推開500公尺 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2881.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2904.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
就是說我這個說法對不對就是說為了隔開這個暗場這個說法對不對報告委員這個就是說因為地熱它是有局限性那我們要充分利用那又不要互相影響所以一定要有一個適當的距離那這個適當距離還要再兼顧行政監理上的便利性所以到底是要用暗場周戒還是要用地下的這一個開篩段其實這個我們在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2904.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2928.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我想次長跟我說我的問題就來了因為這個根據環保團體的陳情說沒人看得到啦你是上面這個規定寫不夠清楚沒有人看得懂沒有人看得懂所以說是不是在這個草案還沒有公佈之前公佈實施之前能夠適度的修正就說加上一個3D示意圖讓願意協助政府推動第二年發展的不管是環保團體或業者能夠正確的解讀跟適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2932.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2958.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
市長是不是願意承諾回去稍微把這個說明處理一下好我想對外的溝通我們來做強化好那部長最後一個是地熱的問題我們現在發現對環評標準第29條天然氣發電裝置其實雖然污染度比較低但是事實上它還是有污染的可是它的只有在裝置的這個新建裝置總共超過200個MW才要做環評但是我們認為是再生能源的而且屬於這個這個綠能的地熱發電卻要10個MW |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2962.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2976.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
就要做環兵這個差距20倍怎麼說得過去呢這個要不要檢討是給委員報告我們已經在檢討地熱這一塊因為未來包括剛剛林次長提到的地熱事實上也是我們再生能源下一階段很重要那什麼時候要提出這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2978.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2995.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們自己本身已經有一個草案這個能源是什麼時候提出來?什麼時候提出來?因為實在差太大了7月底以前會把草案預告7月底嗎?對7月底以前預告草案好那年底希望能夠修法完整確實確實有很大問題差20倍一個比較理想的方式但差20倍我認同陳委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2996.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3018.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
市長這些檢討我希望環境部跟經濟部是能夠緊密合作對的事情我們就要突破想辦法說現有的法規的限制不當的限制那不對的事情像這個鳳林電廠的部分我想這種綠地用用綠地農地林地來換取這個再生能源或用光電的這個破壞的環境的做法是不是在政策跟法規上要稍微做一個嚴謹的是我們現在在進行的可以嗎是在進行的當中好謝謝謝謝陳委員好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3025.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3030.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
好謝謝陳昭志委員接下來我們請林月琴委員進行諮詢好我們有請我們的環境部部長跟經濟部的次長好來部長次長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3051.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3063.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
好,再生能源確實這個發展是我們四年前小英總統連任的時候提出的六大核心戰略產業之一這四年來我們也看到再生能源確實有成長不過大家也面對到國際跟國內的問題因為整個國際上我們市場對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3071.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3081.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
檢探的規則越來越嚴格那當然也會對於我們台灣綠電的成長可是始終跟不上我們國內經濟的成長速度那國內呢就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3081.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3110.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
目前的確中央部會努力底下再生能源有年年的一個成長可是也面對到在興建過程當中民眾民間大有不同的聲音的反對也是一個質疑首先要來看我們想問一下次長就是說過去你也擔任過能源局長目前本席辦公室到經濟部官網上查到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3111.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3117.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
官網大概是講2025年再生能源比例要到 占比要到25% 20%可是現在大概只有15.2%看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3122.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3142.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那王部長在2022年受訪的時候就說2025年沒有辦法達標了甚至要拉到2026年所以在這邊可不可以請次長跟國人解釋就是說臺灣目前到2025年2030年再生能源的目標是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3143.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3170.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我想這個2025年我們設定了20%的發電目標主要是說病亡整個建制好到這個病亡是在2025年底都可以做到但是發電要到20%的話是在2026年的10月因為病亡到發電有一段時間嘛它會隨著時間去增加這樣子所以這樣的情形我們認為其實目標是沒有沒有這個改變的而且我們現在所掌握的部分也是會如期達成這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3170.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3192.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那2030年呢?那2030年我們事實上主要是會以現在比較成熟的太陽光電跟這個離岸風電為主去往前邁進那太陽光電每年會從2026期每年會有兩個Giga的一個設置那離岸風電每年會有1.5個Gigawatt的一個設置那朝這樣的面向到2030年來達成我們所設定的目標這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3193.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3195.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這個圖表就顯示我們整個能源署跟規劃的目標跟政策白皮書提供數據就已經有很大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3219.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3247.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
落差了而且實際上發電量落差更大那經濟部回答是說因為廠商回流之後我們現在台商回流國際大廠商來投資所以造成用電量大增分母變大本來就已經事實上你本來就是落後的所以這一點我大概只同意一半因為再生能源占比下降這從數據上我們就可以看得出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3248.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3262.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
所以也想問的是次長台灣距離再生能源目標到底落差有多少然後目前解決的方案有哪些要在哪些地方更努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3263.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3282.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我想這個剛剛委員問到2025、2030一直到2050我們事實上以這個不同的一個時間點來檢視我們再生能源的發展那我剛剛很明確的對這個委員回復說2025年我們一定可以達到那個那個設置的一個併穩的量那26年10月發電量就會達到這個占比 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3282.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3308.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那往2030年、2050年我們來看事實上除了現在成熟的太陽光電跟離岸風電之外我們一直在這個看台灣的一個最好的潛力像地熱但是這個地熱因為有一些探勘上的一個這個技術上要去建置跟突破所以我們這個是會朝2030到2050之間來做落實那另外一個部分就是說我們還有很多的這個生殖能是大型化的生殖能這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3309.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3312.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
臺灣大這幾年我們看到再生能源有往上可是尤其是在太陽光能跟風電這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3333.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3356.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
展示有目共睹的齁那這個增加成長數據我想能源署比我更了解齁但接下來看我們遭遇到什麼問題齁上風電呢大概漁獲量會減少然後漁民抗議那當初講說設這個漁會靠近可是基本上反而事實上是漁獲量減少而且這個噪音干擾了我們的金豚造成死亡還有國際物料的這個齁問題那 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3358.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3358.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
臺南光電 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3389.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3416.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
談述重電的方式的話破壞石斧的棲地將造成無法回復的情況所以甚至現在應該還有一個是地景的問題所以就想問一下我們的部長薛部長這邊環評認定標準你的修正方向目前進度為何然後預計要找哪些團體因為我們剛剛講有地景 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3417.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3443.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
因為不是只有還是有警官的問題齁所以你剛剛那邊報告提出來說有一定的修訂標準裡邊有一個一定面積跟或設置容量以上所以這也想救教給委員報告齁 林委員報告剛剛講的是針對太陽光電的部分離岸風電我剛剛事實上簡報裡面有提到離岸風電是任何一個案場全部都要做環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3444.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3462.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那環評事實上他非常的嚴謹我們有21個委員還有額外另外他有出城委員都是專家學者包括生態學家包括這個技術還有其他領域的專家他們都針對委員剛剛所提到關切問題事實上都有非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3464.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3489.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這個嚴格的要求開發單位必須去滿足他們的環境保障太陽光電事實上對於地警這個塊他就所以我想問說你會找哪些團體去做討論這個不是我想找哪個團體因為我們那個環評委員他是有很嚴謹的一個審核的機制由各個公民團體學者專家以及相關部會代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3489.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3515.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
在那裏面所組成的這個在我去年9月8月份上任的時候事實上正好那一屆環評委員已經到期了所以又重新選擇了另外一組我覺得前端還是要收集民意瞭解到他們碰到的一些問題點不是只有自己閉門造句那在這邊大概有幾項政策建議大概有三項就是可不可以從爭議比較少的政策加強執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3516.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3528.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
也就是屋頂型的光電這一塊是不是可以先來提出一些提高誘因來增加預算來做投入因為畢竟這個抗疫比較少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3529.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3559.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
執行可能性也比較高的是不是可以去做這樣的考慮那政策建議二就是希望能夠擴大儲能系統這儲能系統上要跟社會大眾溝通因為社會大眾對於消防各方面他們都有些疑慮在所以是不是應該要去考慮還有一個是我們的大型案場的那個建制經驗比較缺乏是不是怎麼去整合人才我覺得這也是要去做那最後就是整個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3559.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3566.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
在公民電廠這一塊所以想問我們的經濟部很重視這個那想問社長這邊針對公民電廠你現在推動的狀況是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3573.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3599.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我想我們在那個電液法本身就是開放那個綠電可以設這個發電廠那這些公民電廠大部分都是這個再生能源發電為主那我跟委員報告像這個很多都是這個設太陽光電的部分那你剛剛提到說那個小型的太陽光電我們要給予鼓勵我們在賺購匯率上我剛剛提到我們給那個屋頂型的小型的那個賺購匯率就維持比較高的一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3600.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3600.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3630.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3633.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
好接下來我們請陳金輝委員進行質詢請環境部長好請薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3656.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3665.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
主席、各位委員、各位官員、部長、早安部長我們上禮拜討論循環杯啊結果網友的點閱已經破20萬了 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3668.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3689.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
所以表示網友很關心這個議題但我今天沒有要問循環杯但未來希望有機會可以邀請部長一起去考察所以除了考察循環杯以外我們今天其實還有重要議題要關注請問部長會認得出來這些美麗的朝鮮黛味在哪裡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3691.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3708.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
呃給成文報告這個地方我沒有去過好對所以我們還要去考察這些地方可以左上呢是我們張濱工業區的朝間帶但是呢他被編列為工業用地所以開發了光電現在是光電海啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3709.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3723.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
左下是台南七谷的國有鹽田,也已經布滿了光電板右邊是布袋八區,原本是國有鹽田還是黑面疲路的七喜地結果光電開發引發了重大的生態爭議再來剛剛這個圖應該部長就認識了因為另外一個委員有播 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3735.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3751.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以這個林碧啊因為光電申請案非常多然後他們又是這個林相不佳的所以我們砍樹砍樹林然後來放所謂永續的光電板這樣合理嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3753.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3774.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這個事實上是我個人來講也不太認同不過這個案子剛剛我也跟委員報告過事實上他還沒有送到環評這裡面來而且以現有的辦法事實上他也不用送到環評但是我相信經濟部在這邊其實那個是大的開發你看比較小型的在左下這裡也是一樣在鳳林喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3775.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3787.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
已經累積到1701公頃了所以其實啊你說還沒有送環評但是法律來不及規定已經在發生的事情你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3789.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3816.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
給陳委員報告實際上他並不是放任他想開發就開發我剛有提到事實上經濟部能源署還有一個審核的一個程序有我們來看一下這個審核程序這個審核程序是總統指示要農委會還有台堂來評估設置光電的可行性所以呢你看他就把一些林相部家滴挖淹水的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3816.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3825.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
找出來就可以推動然後砍樹砍森林怪光年板請問呢這個整個過程裡面環境部有做了什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3827.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3853.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
因為這一塊事實上沒有進入光電板必須環評所謂重要失地的這一塊所以在這一塊我們沒有直接的參與但是我相信在那個時候應該不管農委會那時候農委會現在農業部以及經濟部應該都有跟環境部還有一些互動現在開始互動了現在開始以前沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3854.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3869.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
很久以前就有在互動當然我們不是主責單位所以只能提供一些意見的參考跟我們的一些觀點是好這樣可能一般民眾可能沒辦法接受欸因為最後的結果還是我們砍樹啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3871.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3892.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那發生這種事情當然就是要去檢討那去精進看看能不能把法規修得更完整好那我們再來看我們再來看這個是財政部國有財產署在雲嘉南的鹽田嘛他也是先跟縣政府等等的排除了一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3893.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3905.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
比如說特定水土保持或是原住民保留地、飲用水水源、保安林地等等等等就可以辦理太陽光電的標諸所以最後他們淘汰以後剩下102公頃 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3912.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3938.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
實際上除了跨部會之外,事實上包括這些太陽光電板的設置地方政府事實上也扮演一個相當關鍵的角色所以他們也一起進來那他們當然也要跟中央部會大家共同合作根據我所得到的很多訊息我們在剛剛陳文講到那些地方設置光電板事實上他的生態事實上是更豐富 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3939.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3954.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
當然我也了解我先給你看一下生態更豐富是什麼樣子來我們看一下剛剛我告訴你他淘汰掉剩下100多公頃結果他去開發的時候發現如此荒謬我小孩看到是哭了 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3955.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3981.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
看到如此荒謬的畫面怪獸跟候鳥齊飛的這種畫面所以我真的是結果最後這個是被終止啊經過大型的抗議有23處用地註銷他最後是被終止所以其實你如果光靠地方政府、農業部、內政部、經濟部一起去討論你沒有介入的話我想這個還是不夠專業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3982.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4011.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
好給陳文報告我想將來我們在這個修法之後我想環境部會積極的來參與這個太陽光電設置對但你修法是12月這中間不知道又蓋多少了下一張我們來看一下這個潮間帶雖然工業局說這個不是潮間帶但是當地民眾自己都會拍影片只要漲潮的時候這些光電板就浮起來退潮就躺在地上所以呢這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4013.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4028.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
後來去問經濟部工業局啊就說這個地幕是符合工業用地所以其實就算你12月修法以後他還是不需要環評可是這個草間那是對當地生態保存溫度調節很重要的地方欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4030.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4044.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我相信未來環境部會請這些環評委員把這個列入嗎?特別重視當然是不是列入可能還要看實際上的一個條件那我們尊重專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4047.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4060.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我不希望因為其實大家都會自發性的拍很多影片所以我也不希望全國人民和小朋友會覺得這些事情非常的荒謬剛剛很多委員已經問了我們啊因為放在屋頂上可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4062.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4062.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
計算起來呢這些不需要做環射檢核的屋頂加起來已經1117公頃 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4081.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4090.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
117公頃喔好我們來對比之前你說需要環評有一個高爾夫球場曾經接受過很嚴重的環評很詳細的環評才52公頃結果剛剛大家都說這個屋頂上有多好我們獎勵他們啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4098.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4118.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
結果1117公請現在都沒有人在管他們這個是很違背一般人民的認知啦現在許多人是假養殖在增重電再來我們看一下這個是經濟部能源局針對餘電共生環社和平機制的介紹我們看到他們自己畫的圖喔他們自己都畫進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4119.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4135.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
一二三四都是屬於高敏感的生態區結果這種屋頂型的光電全部入侵因為環社和平都不用做檢核都不用做欸是因為你們是平行單位嗎所以沒有辦法意識到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4137.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4160.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
給陳委員報告我想這個經濟部在這一塊應該也有他們的一個法規他們遵循這個法規我們看一下7年前7年前還沒有升格的時候我們的環保署都敢嗆能源局啊那個時候說這個必須這個綠電啊引爆爭議啊要能源局不要置身事外等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4161.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4172.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
能源局還回嗆他說不要看到黑影就開槍但是我們現在已經過了7年了我也很希望部長可以拿出7年前我們環保署的當初的這種 guts 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4175.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4197.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
謝謝陳委員的指教我想花生這種事情當然就要去檢討希望能夠把華規弄得更完整好我們一起檢討這個是您提出的修正方向這邊有講到說我們太陽能光電認定標準從認定依照日本是4萬千瓦以上要實施環評結果我把它全部調出來303個發電廠只有7個是超過7萬超過4萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4206.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4233.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
4萬3百多個只有7個超過4萬所以你是真的有要環評嗎給陳委員報告齁這個4萬千瓦是日本現在訂的標準當然他是一個很好參考的指標啦那台灣有台灣的情況我們可是我們大部分是中小型大部分中小型而且你去細看這個表他其實很多是一家公司分散在附近或是一家公司下面有很多子公司欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4234.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4258.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這個將來假如有這個灰色地帶我覺得環境部有責任去思考如何去你真的要修改看是同一個區域一起算是對所以等一下會提出臨時提案比如說我們這個應該要用累積的計算方法比照其他的發電廠才對因為我跟你說他們就是會分散很多小型的有時候會分切割對這個我們了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4259.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4276.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
是那最後也很希望如果你颱風過你會看到路邊丟了很多廢棄的太陽能板歪掉的是現在只能依照廢棄物清理法開罰但是我希望你也可以在今年內把它納入必須要強制回收的項目裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4277.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4299.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
事實上太陽能板回收環境部有在做因為當然這個太陽能板它有大概20年的期限所以現在沒有颱風過後就沒有20年的期限了颱風那一塊事實上就以現在的他們都在屋頂上一定壞掉的啊會所以請你盡快納入好謝謝好謝謝陳委員好謝謝好我們謝謝陳金輝委員的質詢接下來我們請圖全級委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4315.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4324.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
好謝謝趙偉請我們的薛部長好有請部長好同仁好 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4325.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4352.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
部長你好是那我看到你們的報告針對開發我們的環境評估跟保護我們環境部也都是非常重視那當然因為開發很重要那我們因為想針對測場部分的問題我覺得我們也要重視所以測場部分以後像有些工廠測場部分像有沒有造成土地的污染我們是不是也應該要重視這部分的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4354.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4376.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
突然講的是光電場域對沒關係我的意思是說開發很重要啦只是說希望環境部也要重視一下像有些廠撤廠的問題尤其我們現在因為我們中美貿易戰還有我們製造供應鏈的重組還有台商的回流這五年內我們工業地大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4377.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4395.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
大概翻了一倍也就是說當然這是好事啦那但是土地喔有人買就一定有人賣那工業地成交量喔那最近也是成交量高達了6千億那請問一下部長你知不知道這全台灣最高成交量六都是哪裡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4397.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4423.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
桃園應該是對所以環境部部長我們薛部長對這是有研究那而且我們桃園目前有36處的產業園區那登記的工廠也高達一萬兩千多間那請問一下那個最近有一些像桃園我們觀音有一個廠像美商科目官廠這個不知道環境部部長知不知道美商科目公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4425.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4448.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
對這家公司我瞭解的不多對因為他之前也因為他8月無預警官場也有很多的勞資的糾紛跟公安的意外跟我們環境部最有關係的就是他之前科目公司無預警官場之後他的研酸管破裂造成我們觀音 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4449.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4461.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
大窟西毒死上萬條的魚那當然就像我們剛剛講開發很重要這測場的部分我們也希望我們環境部能夠來注意那像這個場他 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4464.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4488.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
無預警撤場他已經沒有營業許可了那可是為什麼我們沒有營業許可之後也沒有好好去管理管制讓這個鹽酸或任意的洩漏排到我們大窟西而且最後還是民眾去卷舉之後我們才發現這件事情不知道環境部對這有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4489.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4517.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
給圖文報告基本上因為這一家根據剛剛文的訊息顯示事實上它裡面有牽涉操作、運作一些這個有害物質那他們公司可能就是因為他撤廠了他還是必須把他那些有毒性或者說危害環境的這些要去做處理只是他處理過程當中應該是便宜行事就直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4518.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4540.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
透過案款或其他方式排到對所以我今天提出的重點問題就是希望我們環境部這一部分要先重視一下我不知道說這個地方到底我們先不管這個權責是中央還是地方他在官場前是不是先應該做好我們的污染的評估跟資料的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4542.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4567.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
當然假如說我們從這家公司來看我個人認為他應該是目的是主管機關應該是縣市政府但是中央也是責無旁貸因為我們本來跟縣市的環保局之間的對看起來直接是地方的問題好那因為這個有牽扯到就是工廠歇業的問題根據我們土壤及地下水污染整治第9條 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4569.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4569.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
是的,突然講的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4585.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4600.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那我在針對我們有一個工廠歇業的申請書根據我們土木法第9條當然第一條的部分就是說他如果非環保署第9條管制的我們就免免檢據這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4602.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4616.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
資料的審查那第二條就是說如果在第九條規範之中他就要提供這個評估的調查機資料的審查這兩項是沒有問題可是我們不知道為什麼要甄列第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4617.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4644.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
就是本公司場所環保署依土壤及地下水污染整治法第9條指定公告之事頁如未依該定第9條的規定先檢據用地土壤評估調查及檢據資料報請環保局審查將被環保局處以新台幣15萬元以及75萬元以下的法源就是說他們已經充分了解然後請他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4645.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4668.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
來辦理歇業為什麼要開這一條路就是說他不用提供這個報告就可以讓他先歇業而讓他造成問題又我們再來調查說他怎麼沒有去做這個做這個檢測還有這個評估報告為什麼要開這個第三條就是說不用提供就給他先歇業然後造成我們美商科目有這樣子的問題的產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4669.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4698.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我請我們環保署嚴署長回答一下好不好是包括委員關心的科目的這一個他在農地確實當時是有那個硫酸的汙染並且有一些廢棄物的問題那這部分地方政府已經給他做開罰而且他患有這一個刑事的責任已經移送檢調單位去做調查那這部分也要求他在這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4699.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4699.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
對那為什麽 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4719.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4734.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
為什麼要針對第三條說不用提然後如果沒有提抓到以後再來罰錢你應該是讓他先提供資料資料提供以後確定沒問題再讓他歇業啊為什麼開一條路說你先歇業如果查到你沒有做這些調查或者有什麼問題的時候再來罰你為什麼要開這個後門呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4739.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4752.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這個是說在環保機關的立場你一定要提但是如果說程序上他有瑕疵被我們發現到他沒有提的話就有這個滑管我倒覺得是不是應該他把這些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4752.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4774.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
議員． |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4774.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4788.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我們這個美商科目我跟那個部長報告它裡面是大量的氯氣跟氯化物這是一級危險物品這個整個觀音鄉親的生命還有我們整個工業區到時候都一起陪葬欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4788.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4789.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
對我的意思是說你一二條已經很完善了 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4805.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4809.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
為什麼要訂定一個第三條給你先辦給你先歇業到時候有問題我再來罰你錢那也就是說他都先停止營業了然後萬一發生問題我再來處理我覺得為什麼不把所有資料備齊確定沒問題再讓他辦理歇業而且我們一定要記得這RCA這個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4825.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4845.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
是當初也是這樣因為美商科木公司他也是美商的到時候萬一他走掉以後輸出們要再打這個跨國輸送這個到時候所勞民傷財而且對人民造成的傷害這是沒有辦法去用金錢來彌補的所以我覺得針對這個第三條的部分當然這個可能是經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4847.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4855.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
的部分但是我覺得這因為有影響到我們環境污染的問題我覺得我們環境部針對這部分針對我們工廠歇業申請書的部分我覺得我們應該要重視應該是不是考慮一下把第三條刪除如果要辦理歇業等等應該把這些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4868.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4883.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
檢舉確定沒問題再辦理歇業你看現在這個造成這麼大的問題你讓他歇業整個工廠裡面沒有人管理只有造成這鹽酸管破裂造成土壤污染水源污染這個已經是沒有辦法挽回了所以我希望齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4884.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4887.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
針對這部分我們避免將來我們桃園現在有一萬兩千間廠房這空氣污染跟重金屬污染已經讓桃園成為高風險群所以希望我們環境部或跨部會成立專案小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4900.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4924.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
而且針對美商科目公司這後續還有沒有多少污染的問題請環境部來重視還有這第三條的部分請我們環境部來研擬一下是不是把資料檢據以後再讓他們來歇業不要讓這個問題造成以後再來處理這個處罰的問題我接著都為時已晚好謝謝土委好那請部長這邊再多幫忙我們來努力好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4925.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4951.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好,謝謝圖宣吉委員的質詢接下來我們請邱政軍委員進行質詢我們先請我們薛部長還有我們經濟部的代表好,來我們薛部長還有林次長好,邱委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4953.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4970.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我想請問一下我們經濟部我們目前看起來我們這個光電的問題那現在我們在推動政府在推動那麼我想問一下部長我們推動再生能源對我們的土地會產生什麼影響您這邊可以說明嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4971.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4990.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我想再生能源是個綠色能源當然這個能源的一個這個設置相關的一個這個計畫設置的時候不免會在開發過程當中對這個環境生態有一些影響所以我們的精神就是在推動這個再生能源設置的時候也要兼顧整個環境保護對我知道我們所有的開發不論大小 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4993.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5004.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
對環境跟生態都會造成影響那麼我們要推綠能不就是為了永續這個環境的永續嗎是那您在這之間你們怎麼去拿捏呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5005.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5034.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我舉個例子來說像我們在推離岸風力的時候事實上我們就知道說離岸風力在設的時候我們就避開這個靠近這個近岸的這個整個所謂的白海豚的那個油漆的一個這個場所我們把它排開那也就是說我們在設置的過程當中就要去注意到這對生態環境的影響然後去尋求我們跟生態環境共存共榮的方式我問一下我們的薛部長太陽能面板我們大概使用期限是20年 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5035.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5062.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那麼也就是說在10年後我們開始會有上千噸的廢棄的太陽能面板那這部分呢我們來做怎麼樣處理給邱委員報告事實上我們環境部已經在積極推動資源循環促進法那太陽光電板的一個回收現在國內也有好幾家公司本來就已經在進行太陽光電板的一個這個回收 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5063.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5064.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
目前這些技術成熟嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5086.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5088.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我希望這個不要變成說我們以後有一個大問題那在這邊我再請教農業部我們苗栗縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5104.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5121.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我們苗栗縣這個山多田少那當然我們知道環境部對於太陽能光電的審查目前僅針對重要的濕地才做環境影響評估對吧是但是農業部為什麼對我們苗栗開發審查卻多了這個死虎生態的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5123.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5137.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
跟委員說明實際上不是只有石斧所有光電案現在兩公頃以下的光電案已經關門不受理農地變更那如果是兩公頃以上的這個農地的變更案 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5138.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5161.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那進到農業部之後第一個去檢視的是有沒有影響到農漁民的權利第二個我們去檢視這裡是不是重要的農業生產區第三個是跟生態關注的包括是不是在關注的生物 那我請問一下我們十虎重要棲地的認定標準是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5162.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5163.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
請問部長以前臺灣臺灣臺灣地區有石斧的地區有哪幾個縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5190.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5212.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
大概都是在接近台山縣的這一個部分只有苗栗嗎?我說從幾十年前開始苗栗、台中、南投都有臺北有嗎?臺北沒有新竹呢?新竹應該也沒有都沒有嗎?以前都沒有嗎?沒有,就是依照調查的紀錄是沒有的什麼時候開始做的調查? |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5214.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5241.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
什麼時候開始做的調查?這個是長期的調查你的長期是多久?民國幾年開始?我們是累積了很久很久是多少?大概應該民國八九十幾年所以就是八九十年才開始調查就對了那你們知道以前這些新竹、桃園、台北這些完全都沒有失誤的出現嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5242.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5261.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
早期應該更早期應該有因為台灣那時候生態沒有破壞那麼嚴重我現在要講的就是其實我們苗栗縣我為我們苗栗縣講一句公道話常常很多議題都拿苗栗縣來攻擊那麼其實我們本席認為苗栗縣其實是一個寶玉石虎的模範縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5262.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5277.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
你認同吧?不然現在怎麼還那麼多呢?對不對?但是我們同意跟石虎來共同生存但是我們也不要無限上綱影響我們農民的一個權益部長認同嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5279.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5304.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
所以實際上有石虎的地方他有熱區或是潛在活動區域因為苗栗縣很多開發都受到石虎熱區的影響所以我想請部長訂定一個明確的標準讓我們縣市政府比較好執行我們不是不願意保護石虎但是不能說因為石虎而影響我們農民生存的一個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5305.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5322.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我想這是非常重要的甚至於我們地方的發展也受到影響不能說隨便畫一個樂區你們訂定的標準是什麼不能因為說經過看到石虎有一天經過這邊然後我們就把這整個地方框起來這個對我們苗栗縣的發展影響是非常重大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5322.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5342.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
是跟委員報告那有生態的議題實際上並不是不能開發有生態的議題要設法去如果真的是必要的開發會用縮小或是減緩或是生態補償的方式那要看有沒有辦法做到這樣所以你們現在就是還沒有一個好的辦法對不對沒有一個很明確的一個做法給我們地方這個議題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5350.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5374.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們苗栗縣不是不願意保護石斧我們也很願意來做這件事情因為其實苗栗縣對整個台灣的貢獻其實是大家有目共睹的我講五個水庫其實三個水庫幾乎都是給其他縣市來用至於發電廠也一樣那再加上現在這個石斧我們保育沒有關係但是我也希望部長能夠重視我們地方農民的一個權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5375.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5391.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
是,我們剛好今天下午5點就會有一個討論就是跟我們生態議題相關的單位會到部裡面來做初步的這個看接下來要怎麼再可以兼顧生態這個多久可以給我一個報告是,好可以嗎,一個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5395.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5412.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
一個禮拜可能沒有辦法有一個具體的規劃的內容今天是第一次的討論那第一次討論應該是比較方向性你跟我講多久可以做處理給我們兩個月的時間好不好就一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5414.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5440.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
因為生態的議題實際上是很多大家在關注的因為對於苗栗縣來講我認為這個問題是非常重要的因為我們要好好的保育我們這個難得的這個非常可愛的石虎沒有錯但是我們也要顧及農民的權益我希望部長這邊給我我們農業部這邊給我一個月的時間給你們一個月的時間然後寫一個這個完整的一個報告給我可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5441.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5443.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
好 謝謝主席我們先請我們薛部長我們請薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5472.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5488.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
王美娜部長好我要先請教你一個我們PM2.5不減反升的議題因為昨天我們看到國際的組織IQR他監測我們的PM2.5的濃度那前100大城市竟然我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5489.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5503.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
中南部很多縣市都上榜了包括從嘉義、台南、高雄、屏東、彰化那這一些被點名的城市就是他的PM2.5的濃度都偏高而他在整體的監測我們的確從2022年他下降到13.4他們的監測是2023年已經到了20.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5511.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5521.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那你自己環境部的監測其實在這個趨勢上面也是112年有上升的一個情況到底環境部你們自己有沒有看到這個趨勢為什麼臺灣的PM2.5不減反升 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5527.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5555.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
給委員報告事實上這個也跟我們整個經濟發展的行為有關不過我先談一下這個IQ Air這一家他是一個瑞士專門在販賣我知道部長就是不用解釋太多這個我要你找出真正的原因因為無論是他們的數值還有你自己我們自己國內自己監控的其實上升都是不可否認的事實那本席要求你們去檢討的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5556.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5581.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
到底增加的來源是什麼因為今天我還有別的重要的議題但我要求你要徹底的去看到底那個變化是什麼為什麼過去我們的努力好像到了去年做了一個翻轉這個又爬上來了那這個真正的這一些造成PM2.5濃度上升的到底是哪一些要把它揪出來而且你們要會同這個經濟部如果是經濟部這邊的很多的可能是工廠或是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5585.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5608.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
沒有加研措施導致這個又升高那這個就是要找出原因改善好不好黃委員這個我們可以來寫個報告好那接下來我請那個經濟部次長也一起上台還有能源署的署長因為今天我們排定的這個重要的議題呢就是在我們再生能源發展過程當中特別是太陽能光電過去是從來除了濕地以外從來都不需要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5612.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5640.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
做一些環評的那我們現在看到像包括在嘉義東市剛剛委員已經讓各位看了非常多的照片了我們不我們不排斥再生能源的開發這個綠電也是一個趨勢但是如果你在開發的過程當中你要回溯重電然後你去破壞了這一些鳥類他原來的棲地我覺得這個跟你國家你還成立了一個永續發展委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5642.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5647.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
這個完全背道而馳而且非常的諷刺今天永續委員會要代表請上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5648.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5675.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我覺得國家的政策不能是這個樣子我們看到在嘉義東市的這個砍樹重店他是好不容易用了20年去造林有77公頃結果你經濟部一句林向不佳就可以通通毀壞居民站出來大聲的抗議我問經濟部你們的這一個開發案是不是其實早就通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5677.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5694.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
公委報告這個是台塘的土地當時跟農委會現在農業部申請的平地造林地那它20年期滿所以其實台塘有在檢討這塊地未來要怎麼使用那當然後來造成了我們當地居民的一些反對意見所以台塘這個案子還在溝通當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5695.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5707.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
所以現在還沒有開始動嘛對不對如果居民沒有即使站出來抗議跟反對早就樹都砍光光了那這個就是我們看到的現在政府在推動的過程當中誰可以出來喊煞車 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5710.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5737.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這個是民眾自己出來喊煞車啊那你政府裡面有哪一個部門出來節制這個相關的這個這個措施有一個這樣的一個踩煞車的機制嗎現在看起來就是沒有啊只要經濟部覺得可以因為經濟部肩負開發再生能源這樣的一個角色你們覺得現在開發是最重要的但是沒有人回過頭來看說這樣的開發有沒有不當有沒有對於生態帶來一些破壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5738.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5758.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
是沒有的啊經濟部我問你你能源署是哪一個單位會出來提醒你踩煞車剛剛環境部部長說你們內部有你們的機制是誰跟委員報告現在的這一些像大型的太陽光電的開發其實我們都會要求他們去了解周遭環境社團等要求誰去了解開發商 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5758.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5759.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
都是你們自己人在審查吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5759.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5760.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這當中有邀請環境部任何的專家學者進來共同審查嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5785.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5803.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們會看案件在我們的籌測案件裡面籌測委員如果有涉及到環境敏感地區我們會去徵詢比如說如果有生態議題會徵詢特生中心的意見我就問你台場這個案子你們當時在審查有找任何外部的專家學者或是環境部裡面的官員共同來審查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5803.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5806.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
好,本席要講的就是你們現在能源署自己的審查機制根本就是非常的寬鬆這個也不能怪你們因為你們是負責去開發的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5829.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5852.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
你們現在目標都達不到了我上次問你們經濟部部長他說現在這個太陽能這個缺這個達到預期的目標還差很大一段這個幾乎是幾百座小巨蛋的這樣的一個面積所以對你們來講開發是要務啊只要能開發就盡量開發你們不會去管對於環境的影響所以接下來我就要問我們環境部部長是 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5853.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5877.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
你們在永續發展委員會裡面環境部也是副執行長經濟部也是副執行長哪一個副執行長大如果今天已經違反環境的永續的這樣一個目標請問環境部可以去要求經濟部暫停開發嗎聽起來是不行啊你從頭到尾剛剛你的回答裡面環境部就是沒有角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5881.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5896.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
給這個網文報告事實上這種我們對樹木的認知理論上農業部可以回答一下事實上樹木我們以前都會認為說樹都不能砍但是事實上現在森林學家跟生態學家 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5897.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5916.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
他們的觀念是不一樣的樹也有它的樹林種了20年輕易的就把它毀壞只是為了種變連一般的民眾都看不下去你們官員可以說樹還有分很多種台灣的面積到底有多大水土保持不重要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5917.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5921.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
有必要是為了重電去砍樹嗎?你如果台灣有寬闊的土地或者是你屋頂要去架設這些光電板大家都沒有意見毀樹重電基本上就是一個錯誤就是一個非常嚴重的錯誤更何況林向不家是誰界定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5937.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5953.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
就是因為要種光電板嘛我就說你零相不佳嘛這個就是我們現在非常的鬆散再看下一頁整個現在的開發的弊端就是業者可以化整為零用化整為零的模式取得國有地300公頃 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5956.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5973.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
這個是俗稱的小二甲這個就是之前都非常的鬆散嘛用這樣的方式還有你把原來候鳥的棲地都佔用了把光電板蓋在上面這個是我在嘉義親眼目睹的情況用這樣子的情況來開發我們的綠能這不是很諷刺嗎永續發展委員會的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5982.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5997.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
你說,這一種有沒有違反永續發展的精神?永續發展到哪裡去了?其實這個永續的議題其實只要需要的話永續會不管是執行長就是剛才委員有提到其實都可以出來做一個協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5999.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6023.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
有出來協調嗎沒有啊本期看到的就是一個亂象沒有人敢講話為什麼因為總統要求再生能源的目標一定要達成在這樣的一個大的前提底下官員都噤聲環境部也噤聲沒有人敢出來當壞人踩煞車喊說這個是不對的所以剛剛陳金輝委員說2017年的環保署還比較有尬子敢去糾正 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6024.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6030.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
結果後來現在環境部升格之後有沒有這樣的魄力部長你有這樣的魄力你敢講真話嗎敢啊為什麼不敢好很好就聽你這句話你敢講真話所以環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6040.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6055.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
在任內處理的啊好那你就來改革我們來看到環境部之前遲遲不修法延宕因為都要看經濟部的臉色如果部長你說你現在接任之後你要來推動那我就問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6057.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6085.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
對我可能誤會了沒有說刻意不去修法我想因為那你就加速應該多聽各方面的意見很好那你就加速這樣的一個意見因為你拖越久這當中我就問經濟部一個問題在環境部沒有完成修法之前現在送來的案子光電開發案如果他違反這種大面積如果他違反將來他他要加進一步去規範的這些區域你合可還是不合可在 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6085.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6104.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
修法還沒有通過且我跟委員報告剛剛我們署長已經說過經濟部在接受到有申請案子然後我們會有一個所謂的這個環境生態的一個檢視這個檢視如果發現這個部分是一個敏感地帶的話絕對不會讓他通過我想這個部分是我們現在目前的審查的一個很重要的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6106.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6134.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
因為你們就是之前把關不立所以才要修法這個就是一個很明確的所以這個部分我待會會有個提案我希望你們去盤點如果在這陣子立建來申請的有違反將來修法的內容跟目標的都應該你們要研議怎麼樣有一個煞車的機制不可以有人想要趁著修法還沒有過之前趕快趕快過因為法不溯及既往那這個就會變成是法令的空窗期 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6135.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6156.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
另外一個我要問部長你說你一定會來嚴格把關未來這個你提出來的草案大家都在看如果你提出來的草案針對像嘉義東石的這種回溯重電針對台南西谷這種化整為零的模式如果都沒有辦法規範那就是打假球 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6157.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6170.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
所以你的法令的鬆緊大家都在看另外一個日本的國土面積是台灣的10倍如果是直接引用日本的這個這麼4萬千瓦以上的你才要去規範的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6172.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6198.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那這個就是打假球因為日本的國土面積是臺灣的10倍啊所以絕對不可能是同等的規模我就提醒這幾點請這個我們環境部你有環境部的職責經濟部有他的職責那為什麼要設那麼多部會就是環境部你要發揮你為環境守護保護的功能這是你的職責是的我們一向如此好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6201.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6206.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我們謝謝王玉明委員接下來請我們的黃秀芳委員上來質詢謝謝主席我們請部長好請薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6224.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6243.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
部長好,我想請教就是說國發會在去年3月底就是有正式公布台灣2050這個淨零排放路徑那其中有提出就是打造零碳能源系統目標那我想請教就是說當然今天排的這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6244.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6270.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
這個案當然我相信很多委員都非常的關心尤其是我們的這個不論是陸域風電或者是這個離岸風電甚至我們現在最關心的這個太陽能發電那如果是在一般的這個屋頂上的那個可能就比較問題比較沒有那麼大因為現在有很多的學校或者是公共場域很多甚至有的廠房上面都有這個太陽能這個發電 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6273.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6295.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那最大家最詬病的可能就是在這個一些環境我們認為可能在這個海邊的這種路上型的這種地面型的太陽能光電可能會造成漁民或當地居民的一些反彈那我想請教就是說我們這個環境部在這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6299.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6317.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
以前可能在濕地才需要做環評那有很多就像在我們的選區我的選區我們有關這個農業部所主管的這個郡路上面也都架設很多的這個太陽能光墊 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6318.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6332.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那其實這個都會影響到整個農村的這個風貌或者是整個景觀那我想請教就是說如果要架設這樣的一個太陽能光電第一可能會影響到當地的這個民眾的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6333.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6362.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
比如說如果是在海面上的話可能就影響到漁民的收入那如果說在這個峻路的話也會影響到整個農村的景觀那像我們知道說如果是在這個濕地才需要做環評的話那我不知道說這個其實對一般的這個環境我們認為一般的民眾會覺得說影響很大那我不知道說你未來針對這一部分你們要怎麼樣去做加強或者是加嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6363.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6384.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
好,非常謝謝黃委員剛剛的提問的確環境部在做任何開發案的環評事實上他的著言點比較偏向污染的防治去不要造成對當地不管是自然景觀或者居民生活等等的危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6385.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6393.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
但是未來的確應該如黃委員所提到的景觀事實上也是一個非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6395.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6395.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
要見嚴肅 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6425.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6445.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
甚至是要增加這方面的委員讓他可以提供從另外一個觀點因為畢竟台灣現在在國際的聲望跟知名度也這個非常高我們的觀光客、國際的外賓非常多那假如說到台灣以後看到我們包括農村到處都是這種光線板 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6446.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6463.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
的確可能也有所以未來有可能把這個加進去你們的這個考量我們來考量就是說包括這個太陽光電板的設計是不是能夠搭配整個周遭的環境不過我在這邊真的跟黃委員報告就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6464.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6484.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
太陽光電板它20年使用壽命完了之後把它拆除事實上它對整個環境的影響事實上是微乎其微的是沒錯就是說對它的運作過程不會產生那些污染物還是什麼各方面是所以我想這一點可能也是很多民眾還是什麼可能有一點誤解 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6485.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6500.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
所以我剛剛那個部長我剛剛講的就是說當然這個我認同只是說未來不論是在任何地方就是說如果你們在這個海邊架設這樣地面型的地面型的這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6501.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6506.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
太陽能光電板其實對漁民來講雖然說這個是你們的地可能工業區說這個就在工業區裡面就工業區的這個土地可是因為長期以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6516.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6533.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
就是沒有在工業區這邊可能沒有在使用那就是漁民可能這個抓一些貝類的一個場域嗎對啊那你後面你把這個光電板架上去之後可能就是影響到於民的一個收入所以我也希望就是說未來這個因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6537.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6537.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我們當然不希望這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6553.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6580.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
所以第一個如果要有這樣的一個地面型的光電板或是在這個一些比較需要去跟當地的農民或是當地的漁民要溝通我希望不論是我們的這個經濟部也好或者是農業部或環境部應該要加強溝通另外就是說希望把這個當地的這個地景跟地貌應該也要融入我個人認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6583.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6611.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
其實我覺得說以前我們看到的這個郡路郡路就是高嘛旁邊就是樹木嘛阿現在看起來就是整個高管點就是都架設太陽能板旁邊就完全都沒有樹齁其實我覺得這個對整個農村的這個風貌真的是完全都變了所以我們希望說這個這一方面真的要再去加強好不好如果要架設的話因為這個架設好像完全都不需要跟當地的民眾去溝通嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6612.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6636.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
就是說這個農業部的農水署同意之後就把這個租出去了嘛對啊那這樣子對當地的居民來講其實他生活在那邊真的是影響蠻大的好不好所以我想我們跟經濟部跟農業部未來應該強化這一塊的聯繫特別在景觀以及對地方的一個影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6639.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6658.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我想請教就是說我們希望就是說這個太陽能光電板架上去之後我們也要求這樣的業者他應該也要去隨時做一個監控這個地方的生物是不是減少或者是有什麼樣的改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6659.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6682.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
好當然我們是可以要求就是說不能因為我們架了這個光電板上去之後然後整個生態是完全改變的我不知道說你們對這個有沒有這樣的要求給黃委員報告我根據我們林次長曾經也跟我談到過他們事實上有後續有去請一些環保團體去稍微瞭解一下事實上很多光電 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6683.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6684.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我相信． |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6704.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6729.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
只要實際我們比較冷靜的去看待這個問題當然我們也知道說有一些問題那就去改那有正面的也應該去報導去跟大家分享因為畢竟不是只有台灣在推太陽光電全世界再生能源太陽光電都是很重要的一部分特別是台灣在這一塊的技術也是相當的先進我們應該要共同來支持當然環境永續是更重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6729.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6751.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那我想請教就是說以目前的這個狀況其實我們在推這個陸域風電也好這是這個太陽能光電的這個設置以目前來講其實整個進程或者是這個速度好像也沒有那麼快那如果未來加嚴的話如果未來加嚴的話因為地方的民眾可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6752.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6772.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
會有一些抗爭啊或是說會有一些疑慮啊那未來加嚴的話也可能會造成這個再生能源的這個進程可能又會比較緩慢了可能會比較慢了那這些業者也許他會往國外去發展會不會未來會影響到台灣的這個再生能源的一個發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6773.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6793.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
是不是可以先請部長回答一下這個理論上經濟部來回答更容易不過環境部我覺得我們會來衡量如何去符合我們在推動再生能源的這個部分然後又兼顧整個環境永續跟保護的這個角度是不是請那個經濟部來次長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6799.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6827.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
好 謝謝委員剛剛推詢的問題我想經濟部的理念推再生能源本來就是基於環境永續嘛那這個規範過程當中我們一直希望說這個設置的一個這個開發跟我們的生態跟我們的環境都能夠融合我一直舉我們離岸風電的開發在設置過程之前的話我們就排開可能的一個生態的一個這個敏感地帶我剛剛講說我們這個近海的1.5海里的這個白海豚的棲息我們就把它劃開 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6828.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6848.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那在設置過程當中我們就遵照環評的規範去執行所以基本上我們經濟部絕對希望是說在推動過程當中能夠兼顧環境的一個這個發展那我想說如果能夠讓這個議題透過環評的一個這個適當的規範讓這個爭議能夠降低比較小的話在推動過程當中或許我們可以得到更好的一個推動進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6849.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6877.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
好,我們當然希望就是說台灣的這個綠能的推動能夠很順利可是就我們也發現民眾可能會有一些疑慮那會有一些抗爭那當然就是說溝通非常的重要那我們也希望就是說能夠達到這個2050這個淨零碳排能夠達到這樣的目標我是希望說我們還真的還有很長的一段路要走那溝通真的非常的重要好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6880.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6888.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
好謝謝那等一下王振旭委員質詢結束之後我們休息5分鐘請王振旭委員謝謝主席有請環境部薛部長還有經濟部林次長好部長次長請好王委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6909.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6935.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
部長好市長好王偉好我想發展再生能源基本上除了希望整個環境能力永續以外那對提升我國的產業競爭力也是非常重要的一環我們也知道在前天賴總統當選人到竹科區跟半導體的業者有所座談 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6936.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6959.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那在那個當下業者一方面很肯定政府的施政對於高科技產業的支持不過同時也盼望對於能源轉型、綠電轉型還有淨零轉型的部分也因應期盼因為我們也知道很多國際跨國的企業對於產業鏈的供應未來會要求越來越嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6963.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6982.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
就好像台積電就宣布他們不只在2050年他們甚至要提醒他提醒他2040年就要落實全球營運據點都要百分之百使用再生能源那其實不只台積電我想大部分我們在臺灣的這些產業也都有這樣的體認也都有這樣的自我要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6983.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6996.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這部分可不可以請次長在經濟部說明一下除了剛剛黃修昌召委所提到的這些部分以外有沒有更讓大家可以了解的具體措施來達到這樣的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6998.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7025.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
謝謝我想其實沒有錯現在的國內的這個產業他要在國際市場提升他的競爭力購出重要的這個綠電來降低他的排炭是一個很重要的競爭力那我們的這個半導體產業他們都有一個很重要的目標就是希望在2030能夠達到RE100這樣的一個要求或2040去達成這樣子所以我們經濟部就必須提供更多的一個這個再生能源或者是綠電給這些業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7026.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7041.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那我們會從幾個面向來走一個面向當然是擴大我們的一個這個再生能源的供應比如說我們現在看到比較成熟的這個離岸風電或者是太陽光電那另外一塊就是我們會有一個這個綠電的交易機制來幫他們找到更適當的綠電來購置這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7044.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7069.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那我想這個部分是從這個供應國內的一個業者所需要綠電的面向來處理但是過程當中我們如何讓這樣的綠電的供應能夠更加速事實上是需要有一些好的機制來進行那過去我們在推太陽光電的時候我們基本上對於設置可能會有一些爭議的部分我們就有這個環境跟社會的檢視的機制那透過這個環境跟社會檢視機制先去這個篩選 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7074.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7101.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
有敏感或者是有比較嚴重影響生態的部分就不要去設也不要公告出去這樣子比如說我們的漁電共生就透過這種機制去公告沒有所謂環境或者社會衝擊大的這個區域讓大家可以去生設那業者有了這樣的一個很明確的地方可以生設的時候他的速度可以加快那我想說我們今天討論的這個環境的議題如果能夠有更好的機制在處理像環境部他們現在規劃的部分那有適當的去 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7102.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7125.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
做一些規範我相信也是讓我們在業者能夠加速推動過程當中去排除大家的餘力我想這個是正面的一個重要的思維來推動工作是的確能源的需求會越來越高可是我們也希望在這個過程裡面能夠盡量減少環境的衝擊那這是我們今天其實排這個會議最重要的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7126.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7146.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那這個部分剛剛很多很多委員都已經有提過就大約略過不過今天部長裡面報告的有談到就是說如何在規劃上未來需要有更多要跟各界討論的地方那請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7148.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7173.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我們過去這些列型很容易就會被批評說代表性不足或者是這個多元性不足的問題那未來在推動相關的說明或者是討論的時候有沒有更完整的規劃去找到更多或者是相關的這些環保團體因為他們真的很努力的希望維持台灣有一個更好的未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7174.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7195.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
給王委員報告實際上我從去年8月22日上任到現在已經也參加過七八場正式的跟環團的對話那除此之外我們各個部會跟環團之間的互動特別是任何法案的研修過程當中從議告、從研商、從座談會、從公聽會等等跟環團的互動都 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7203.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7232.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
還算應該是密切當然我們都知道環保團體本身也有不同的看法對任何一個議題所以如何能夠綜合整理大家的意見台灣畢竟是一個多元的社會那我們不希望說講話比較大聲的好像就是代表那個可能也不必然因為台灣我們的民族性事實上多數的大部分都是沉默的 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7233.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7261.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
反而叫了很大聲的也不代表說他是主要的意見那對環境部來講我們就悉心接受多聆聽各方面的意見能夠把事情做好那當然不可能任何一個辦法或措施讓所有的人都都按讚都滿意不過環境部還是持續來努力那假如王委員認為我們還有哪一塊部分讓我們的民眾沒有辦法參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7261.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7280.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我們也非常樂意來邀請他們來跟環境部來溝通跟交流是 那就麻煩部長持續有效而且是多元的溝通是 那我們可以從下面看到其實環境部這幾年來設立了國家企業環保獎 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7282.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7296.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
雖然不是一個溝通的過程事實上是在鼓勵或者是號召企業能夠推動長期的環保工作相對如果能夠有這樣的獎項這些單位他們也試著會跟內部或者是做外界的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7297.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7316.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那這部分其實是非常利益的良好可是我們看到過去的幾年來好像參與率不是太高那是不是碰到在參與過程裡面誘因不足或者是在推動的部分有哪一些的因素造成參與率不足給王委員報告事實上這個獎項從民國81年1992年就開始在推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7324.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7339.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這裡面列出說在近幾年譬如說去年是第5屆原因是我們在108年2019年又把它改一個名稱叫國家這個企業環境獎之前叫中華民國企業環境獎 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7340.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7368.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
所以事實上他是一個已經很長久那很多公司可能都已經獲過獎了所以當然到後面來就是參與的並不是那麼高但是我個人覺得未來應該會改變特別是現在金管會要求公司在ESG那獲得這個獎事實上是公司在ESG推動的一個很好的成效當然誘因的部分我們的確還可以思考啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7368.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7388.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
不過這個是因為都是企業界假如我們給他獎金對很多企業來講事實上他們是比較不會那麼care獎金反而是那個榮譽那當然假如我們將來可以鼓勵把頒獎的成績可以拉得更高或許應該對企業界會有更大的誘因我們來努力好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7389.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7418.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
好,希望有其他的實質誘因包括像減稅等等的可能性這只是一個原意的方向那其實我們也看到醫院參與者更低這個我們也期待環境部還有跟未來跟這個衛福部這邊有沒有共同的鼓勵方案這個是很期待的部分那我們知道其實大型醫院真的是消耗能源消耗的大戶已經是非製造業當中佔最大的比例那這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7419.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7438.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
未來如何能夠有效的不管是在設備上或者是在相關計畫上或者是在能源的使用效率上對醫院能不能提供什麼樣的協助這部分不曉得經濟部或是能源局這邊有沒有相關的措施可以來協助醫院針對接觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7439.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7454.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
黃委員報告一下就是說去年非常謝謝這個衛福部的協會部長他也同意希望說醫學中心就要納入包括再進行ESG能夠提高包括能源效率的這個部分那其他部分我請 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7455.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7475.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
根委員報告像這些大型醫院我們也提供一些節能設備的一個補助態換比如說LED照明比如說空調那另外醫院如果有需要我們也有專家團隊可以去幫他協助他做節能輔導那後面可以轉接ESCO來協助他完成這些節能的這些這個措施跟他的實際上的執行以上跟您說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7476.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7490.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
是我們知道醫院他最大能源的要求之一就是他不能夠斷電不管他是在哪一些所說房啊或者是家戶單位那能源儲存就是如何能夠做有效的能源儲存 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7491.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7519.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這部分是不是未來有機會往這邊除能往的方向來發展確實如委員所說明的我們現在也跟幾個醫院其實有在談包括他的自主的能源供應比如說屋頂做太陽能然後搭配除能搭配他整個能源管理系統讓他整體醫院的這些能源使用效率做到最好這個我們有找這個方向找幾個醫院正在有在洽談謝謝好謝謝那期待未來可以更好我們一起努力謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7520.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7523.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
好謝謝委員的質詢我們現在休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7861.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7865.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
好 我們繼續開會接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員進行質詢主席、在場的委員先進、列車政務機關首長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請薛部長還有林次長、經濟部林次長、農業部的莊司長和代表行政院的吳明慧吳代表、吳處長好 吳代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7897.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7911.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
部長好、次長好、司長好、還有處長好、代表好。OK,我很快的就是,欸對,他叫能源署的游書長,漏掉了。好,先請教那個薛部長。部長,很簡單,氫能跟石化燃料,您覺得哪一種對環境的影響比較嚴重?簡單回答。 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7914.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7943.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
你所謂的影響我不曉得這個石化燃料當然石化燃料產生二氧化碳造成溫室氣溫度升高嗎他所以說石化燃料可能對環境的影響重力比較大好往下看齁其實呢不只如此啊除了使用石化燃料有對環境造成汙染之外呢石化燃料如果還包括生產儲運的過程你看包括後輪擱淺燃油外洩或者是說外海的原油裝洩管線破裂還有呢煉油廠呢發生爆炸還有呢油罐車 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7944.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7944.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
好幾百頁吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7963.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7979.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
現在發報的就123億了還不曉得能不能完成所以一個小結論請教環境部部長相較於石化燃料氫能源外洩相較於對於海洋土壤地下水空氣或是爆害的危害性氫能跟石化燃料哪一個比較嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7981.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7987.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
請問一下目前農業區可不可以設加油站如果在特定農業區不行除了特定農業區以外農業區可以好那農業區的加油站如果改成了加輕站對農業生產是不是比較乾淨和無汙染 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8010.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8019.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
如果說加油站跟嘉青站在農業區你覺得哪一個比較沒有汙染對,如果是以對土壤來講因為就整個農業來講他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8021.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8042.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
影響很多重概念上概念上如果說是清的安全性有確保的情況下那我是問汙染汙染比較沒有汙染如果單純就汙染的話是那請問一下目前社在農業區的加油站可不可以兼營充電站 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8045.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8046.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
請問一下這裡面加油跟氣 這個氣是什麼氣? |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8072.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8091.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
來,游市長,這是什麼氣?這天然氣天然氣,所以不只加油也可以設加氣站囉?這天然氣可以天然氣可以,好來請問一下那個市長,莊市長那請問油跟...如果油跟氣,來跟我們的氫氣跟天然氣上一頁氫氣跟天然氣哪一個對農業的衝擊比較大?氫氣跟天然氣,如果在農業區直接回答嘛,常識問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8101.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8109.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
呃就就氣來講的話我我認得是差不多啦都差不多天然氣那個好了我們要劉署長劉署長親戚跟天然氣外洩的時候他會發生什麼情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8115.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8142.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
兩個的物理特性其實不大一樣不大一樣嘛對說明一下新是比較快發但是天然氣比較容易聚集是比較重對但是容易爆炸是不是這樣對沒有錯好謝謝來我們來問一下加油站可以設充電站的規則是不是出在這裡游組長是不是這樣設在加油站設置管理規則是這是哪個部會主管的規則這個是我們經濟部好經濟部好謝謝來那個部長薛部長請回齁好那現在的加油站可以經營加輕站嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8143.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8173.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
學部長請回請回因為後面沒有你的問題了來來來抱歉抱歉來經濟部現在的加油站市長市長我要問林市長因為你也當過能源署的現在的加油站可以兼嘉青站嗎我們現在有公告一個這個那個嘉青站的設置管理辦是不是這個那為什麼你們這些嘉青站的設置要符合國土計畫的規則憲法規的加油站可以兼營嘉青站嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8175.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8196.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
現行法規的農業區可以加油站可以建立加輕站嗎 有沒有現在的那個這個加油站是可以加氣那也可以設充電站但是我們現在有公告的那個加輕的來莊市長莊市長問你一下來這個條文你再看一遍來下一頁下一頁你認為農業區的加油站可以加油可以加天然氣還可以充電那你認為他可不可以加輕剛剛問過了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8200.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8213.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
清比油更乾淨兩種氣清氣可能危害性剛剛署長也講了天然氣比較有危害性那你認為目前農業區的加油站可以兼營加充電站可不可以兼營加清站 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8214.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8241.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
你沒有辦法回答 這不是你管的業務不是 這一個我們還沒有討論到還沒有討論 我現在直接問你 來 下一條來 游蘇長 這是你們主持的會議嘛在今年的3月6號 對不對 是你們說 農業區涉及到農業部的權責無法承諾配合修改相關的規定現在直接問農業部 莊市長你認為 如果未來在農業區的加油站可以加天然氣 可以加油 還可以充電你覺得你農業部可以接受它的加薪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8243.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8265.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這個涉及到的我覺得應該要更細部的去討論我覺得說你剛剛的回答其實大家都知道氫比油好氫跟天然氣比它也比較安全既然都可以充電了好最後呢來經濟部最後走旗站起來了齁請問林市長為什麼都市計畫法當中它並沒有加沒有設置充電站的規定可是你們容許加油站設充電站 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8268.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8281.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
沒有這個規定啊目前的這個內政部管的臺灣省的這個施行細則沒有說加油站加氣站可以設充電站但是你們就同意啦為什麼因為他是兼營的性質那如果兼營加油站兼營加清可不可以同樣的道理嗎最後一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8285.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8310.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我想這個部分可能就是要從一個更廣泛的期限好,所以我要求請你們檢討加油站設置管理規則及加輕站銷售氫燃料經營許可管理辦法讓加輕站可以比照充電站讓現行的加油站經營加輕站可以回去評估嗎?這個我們可以回去目前也有業者在跟我們提出這樣的建議我們正在檢討當中好,那就這樣,謝謝主席好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8312.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8315.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
接下來我們請王宏威委員進行諮詢。好,謝謝主席。我請環境部部長、經濟部常事林次長還有農業部資源永續利用司司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8339.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8346.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我們今天這個專案報告主要是在我們整個再生能源發展的過程裡面對我們的環境的影響是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8367.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8376.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
這幾年我們可以看到很多各地光電全省開花同樣的有關於對環境對於農業對於綠地的衝擊也是遍地開花 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8385.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8401.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這個怎麼是舊的我們可以看到比如說像平和公路平和公路花了百億的做種樹可是呢樹種下去之後呢就開始做光電又把它挖掉了就變成這樣子看到沒有光禿禿的 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8402.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8418.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
向屏東風鈴部落也抗議這個光點使得他們都在砍樹另外前一陣子很多人在國道休息站那麼大家都是喜歡停在樹下面因為擋那個怕太陽尤其夏天太陽太曬了 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8420.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8434.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
會發現樹都不見了通通變成光電板所以呢這個很多的民眾說我們這個政府是不是瘋掉了為了要做光電板不惜砍樹休息站的樹都砍掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8435.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8448.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
另外過去也常常發生像我們旗鼓地區也曾經有居民漁民走上街頭說要救漁民護黑面疲勞 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8450.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8466.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我講的這些都是我們在整個發展再生能源過程裡面大家看到有多少的民眾在反彈然後質疑為什麼樹不見了然後黑面皮路不來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8468.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8479.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
過去我們的光電開發案的爭議還不止這些我們來看下一頁我幫你們整理了一下比如說臺東資本失地光電案那麼這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8482.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8501.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那個大地部落的傳統的那個濕地的生態也被受影響比如說苗栗銅鑼足深社區的光電案石虎的重要棲地受影響紮化大成光電示範區農耕面積縮減臺南七股光電密度最高反正抗疫不斷我剛才也講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8502.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8503.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
平東訪寮石頭營光電案因為它緊鄰的是二戰的遺跡石頭營的碉堡所以我剛講的除了綠地除了生態還有它甚至侵害了我們這些遺跡 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8517.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8542.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
平東風林村光電案我剛講的還引發了土石流所以我要講的請問一下包含我們環境部、經濟部、農業部跟我們的這個國發會我們有沒有一個綜合的現在去檢討光電全台開花之後造成這麼多的爭議這麼多的反彈我們有沒有任何的改進的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8543.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8555.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
檢討的方案還是放任這些光電四處的去影響我們的生態去影響我們的農田去影響我們的漁民然後甚至去影響這些古蹟遺址部長可不可以報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8561.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8585.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
一現在的環評法裏面規範要實施環評的對光電而言就是只有重要失地那剛剛王委員所提到這些案例這還不夠所以事實上我們現在要進行修法希望能夠把裝置容量超過某一個標準或者佔地面積超過某一個標準一定要納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8586.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8616.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8617.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8631.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這個我們現在就是希望7月底能夠把草案去預告那接下來經過60天的公告之後接下來辦原商會希望年底能夠把這個修法來完成那未來這些都會 7月底才會去預告 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8632.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8635.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我們是以日本現在的案例來看它是40個MB |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8654.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8670.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
每個月的標準的話就要進行環評那大概一公頃可以產生以現在的這個效率來講大概是一公頃就是一個每個月那當然隨著所以大概40公頃左右對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8672.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8698.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
但是那個只是參考值啦我想未來台灣我們應該有台灣自己的考量你們目前內部準備的是針對那40MW跟40快算成面積的話大概40公頃左右然後在這個以上這個是參考日本的標準我們自己還在收集各方面的資料當然有委員也提到說台灣跟日本不一樣那我們也會納進去考量假如委員有什麼特別的想法我們當然也 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8699.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8720.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
非常歡迎王委員可以提出建議好謝謝我覺得至少你們要朝一個要這麼全台這麼多的爭議然後我們坐在那邊坐視不管這個態度絕對是不對的好不好我們發現問題就解決問題嘛好謝謝好謝謝王委員謝謝好謝謝王宏威委員的質詢接下來我們請謝伊鳳委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8732.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8738.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
好主席好我想要請薛部長還有林次長薛部長林次長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8741.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8770.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
好,謝文豪我想請教一下因為我在2月27號的時候跟院長有質詢過就是關於就是現在目前設立這個光電是嫌惡設施嘛那因為有時候可能聚集民宅太近那在這個部分好像那天王部長有回答我說這個是不用修法的而是在現行的條例裡面就可以做相關的退縮的這樣子的一個方式是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8771.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8787.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
能源局我想我請我們能源署那個委員回答一下這確實是有這樣的一個規劃對不對跟委員簡單報告就是針對這些緊鄰聚落的我們後來有修改我們的警官設置原則裡面那針對聚落部分我們要做適當退縮或者是說他要架設綠籬來做一個視覺警官站的一個隔離 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8790.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8811.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
對因為目前如果光電設施你們知道他會反光嗎那如果太鄰近民宅或者是緊鄰那個民眾的就是說休閒長去的去住所的話都會有可能造成民眾就是說在視覺上面或者是在相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8811.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8816.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我們大概有針對幾個案場有去做一些實測的這樣的一個數據那其實像那個我們蓄設如果蓋的太陽能板事實上對室內溫度是有降溫的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8836.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8857.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
對事外可能會有另外一些影響那另外我們針對像我們在一些空旷地區的這些太陽光點我們也去做實際上的溫度調查事實上因為我們在空旷地區因為它的擴散良好有時候反而比那個社區裡面的溫度會更低這個是我們實測的結果所以根據這個光電廠設置的位置不同恐怕會有不一樣的這樣的一個結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8858.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8875.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
目前到底所有的光電廠我聽到的是說他們現在把光電廠的設置的就是說容量變小然後範圍也變小就不需要經過環評是不是這樣子現在有環評只有在重要失地的案子才要經過環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8877.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8888.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以全部都已經不需要環評目前只有在重要事例設光電廠要環評所以他現在都不需要經過環評對所以這就是目前剛剛我們有環境部有講目前正在檢討當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8889.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8908.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
所以因為他們有好像把規模變小然後不需要經過環評那未來是否需要經過環評還有對於現在目前上面國有財產署的所屬的用地上面有目前有民眾成豬作為就是說農地 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8910.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8930.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
這樣子的情況下未來是不是還是優先你知道嗎因為國有財產署說未來他們是不需要他們不會提供他們那個承租者的資料給相關的光電業者但是到底是不是以目前承租者還是優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8930.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8958.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
沒有跟委員報告說現在我們跟經濟部跟財政部國產署大概有經過協調過去會有一些開發業者他們自己去找這些承住戶去協調造成一些不必要困擾所以現在的程序做一個修正如果有開發業者要承住國有地這個國產署會先把相關資料給我們我們會先去判斷套疊這塊土地的基本使用情況如果已經有農民在做合法的使用這塊地我們基本上不會同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8959.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8982.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
國產署把這個已經租給農民在合法使用正在使用中的土地再給開發業者去做光電這個我們跟國產署已經有達成這樣的一個共識所以現在已經做相關的修正了嗎?過去有一些情況是有開發業者如果過去這些相關的開發業者已經取得就是國有財產署相關承租人用地的資訊那怎麼辦呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8983.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9003.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
怎麼處理呢?其實有資訊因為他如果有既有租約他還是在國產署的合法租約裡面除非這個我們承租的農民他願意要終止租約他才國產署才有辦法在土地再租給開發商如果農民他不同意終止租約事實上這個土地還是要維持原來的租約的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9004.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9031.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
對因為目前的確有一些開發商他們會自行去跟農民聯繫但是給農民造成說他們在就是說在成豬上面的壓力即便說他會有所謂的好像補貼或者是什麼就是要成豬他會給他相關的補貼或怎麼樣但是會對於現在在上面耕作的農民產生相關的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9032.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9051.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那我認為基於就是保護成都人就是原本成都人的這樣的利益的情況下不應該就是把他們的個資給就是相關的開發業者好嗎所以我們跟國產署現在就是有協議除非我們成都人願意把他的資料提供不然我們就不會提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9052.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9067.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
願意願意提供陳朱仁如果他自己願意提供這個資訊的話那個國產署會去做一個調查他願意提供的才會提供如果他不願意提供這個資訊就不會提供好好謝謝好謝謝謝一鵬委員的資訊接下來我們請鄭天才委員進行資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9086.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9113.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
主席有請環境部部長好請學部長部長好目前我這樣看整個從台東或是其他地方來看有關光電的這些能夠會減少其實很多都是在地的 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9114.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9126.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
農民反對然後才不然的話按照你現在的相關的這些法規真的是會非常的腐爛像這個以慈喪臺東慈喪鄉反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9129.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9153.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
什麼叫觀光工廠我也是第一次聽到用觀光工廠然後要去蓋光墊所以這個部分在台湯的土地台湯的土地上實際上現在鄉親堅決反對後來台東縣政府就把他退建了我們看這個屏東最嚴重的是屏東 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9156.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9175.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
最嚴重這樣的一個情況真的是對人民來講尤其是對農業來講對環境其實是環境影響很大影響很大所以現在的環境影響評估法 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9176.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9189.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
就條文來講,寫得很清楚,環境影響評估的定義,開發行為或政府政策對環境包括生活環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9190.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9202.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
生活環境很廣嘛你要做很寬的解釋也很大自然環境、社會環境及經濟文化生態等可能影響至層數及範圍所以這個其實是怎麼會 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9208.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9234.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
按照這個你們現在的規定這是你們今天的報告裡面這個是執法對他限定這個執法認定標準第29條嘛對不對你看太陽光電發電設置太陽光電發電系統只有限制在重要的失地才要做環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9235.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9236.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
給證人報告了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9252.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9281.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
就是說雖然以前只限定重要失地但是經濟部能源署事實上他們是有根據設置地面型太陽光電設施景觀及生態環境審定原則去做審核所以都會考量很多的因素啦並不是說方正他想設立就設立不過針對我們的重點跟我們報告兩個重點第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9282.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9310.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
就是未來在地面型的光電它達到一定的規模或者一定的面積就一定要要求要進入環評那第二個是說假如這個太陽光電的設施是在這個環境敏感的地區比如說國家公園特定的農業用地或野生保護區這個也要環評所以將來這個加鹽的修法就朝這兩個大方向來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9312.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9334.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所以這個目前的進度是目前我們已經在擬這個草案接下來希望能夠在7月底前把草案預告接下來就會召開研商會跟各個團體來共同討論希望盡快可以把它完成修法的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9335.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9358.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我是建議要加快因為現在才3月嘛你要到7月這個是因為這個不是第一次現在我講啊現在都是人民去反對像那個台中卡地布那個卡地布部落反對是一言之法是一言之法反對才沒有不然的話那個地方也是很慘啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9359.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9380.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
給委員報告我們事實上不只光電啦事實上包括地熱因為地熱也是未來經濟部在開發再生能源是一個很重要的地方我們希望說整體來做考量所以才會需要一些時間不是只有光電而已好好加油好OK好謝謝政委謝謝好謝謝鄭天才委員接下來我們請林淑芬委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9394.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9394.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9411.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9415.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
有一些陳年舊案在環評或環線差做過以後10年和20年都沒有完成開發那期間可能會有業者倒閉轉手財務危機遲遲沒有動工那也可能大家都覺得取得的開發證很難能可貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9432.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9454.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以大概都在大概自己沒有辦法再開發的話都會轉賣出去轉手他人所以到時候就很多陳年舊案然後就捲土重來像藍水建霸的世豐水利電廠大家都知道就是說我們他在1999年就做完了兩階段的環評報告完成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9455.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9480.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
1999年可是他3年後的2002年他也沒有動工他是2004年才動工結果他動工的時候就因為超過3年沒有實施開發行為就被處分然後就要求說那你超過3年要做環線差結果呢他在拖他也一直拖拖到2007年才做環線差然後呢他也沒有開發 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9481.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9488.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
他就直接就丟著動工一下就丟著然後現在到2019年從1999到2019經過20年他這塊執照還放著然後轉賣給大財團政威集團在這種狀況裡面他們現在主張說我們不需要做環評我們也不需要做環線差因為2007年做過了2007年到現在天啊已經經過13年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9509.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9517.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
而你們屬裏面：你們不裏面：你們仍然認為說這個應該也是不用再做環線查然後直接就可以繼續他們就可以繼續開發了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9521.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9539.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
給林委員報告以現有的辦法事實上是10年必須要完成開發那他假如10年沒有動作他是可以再延展延一次好像是現在我不再跟你講10年展延的問題我再講說環評法第16條之一的立法精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9540.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9563.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
就是說三年三年一次的環境變動非常的大以世豐水利電廠為例他在豐平溪流域他2007年做了環線查到2007年之後豐平溪歷經颱風侵襲地震擾動所以整個地區包括山崩地滑大規模的淺勢的崩塌區通通都跑出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9564.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9568.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所以大家都認為說你怎麼會把2007年2007年之後還有這麼多的問題你們都不用再去做環境衝擊的評估那人家就幫你們研究了地球公民基金會幫你們做了研究適風電力花蓮風平溪流域的水溫狀況他們發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9585.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9609.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
它的循流量就是每10天為一循的平均流量跟環評時期跟環縣差時期它在統計上有顯著的差異它代表在氣候變遷之下而風平息的流量變化越來越極端而且在一年之中它可能就有三分之一的時間無法滿足發電和生態機流量的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9610.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9633.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
所以它的環境變化是相當相當大的而你們現在仍然主張說不需要再去檢視環境的這個差異就可以直接動工免做環線差直接做過2007年做過了就免死金牌了然後就這樣子就要準了因為它是政威集團接手了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9640.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9657.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我剛剛講了有沒有道理阿我剛剛講了有沒有道理阿我們16條之一的最核心立法的精神就是我們認為環境的變異3年在極端氣候之下3年減是一次阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9658.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9670.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
這個是很重要的我們希望不要政府看到財團就轉向或者是手就軟了我們以往來行政好不好我們以往來行政好那我就要請教你現在我們今天大家討論是說一定規模會在環境敏感區裡面你們要求要做環評但我現在要問你說你知道現在的再生能源產業或是光電產業其實也有一些環境檢視的機制在現在有什麼樣環境檢視的機制你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9689.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9714.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
你是說環境部的部分還是說包括全部的就講再生能源現有的機制就有一個環境檢核經濟部能源署這邊應該是以目前應該有一個我剛剛有稍微提到他們有一個標準然後移電工生也另外不是部長你一定要知道我沒有問那個能源局因為他主辦了所以他當然知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9715.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9717.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
現在我跟你講為什麼能源局有一個環境檢核環社不只是環境還環境和社會檢核為什麼作為環境目的事業主管機關的環境部部長你們不知道呢為什麼這個東西你需要知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9732.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9737.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
因為我們都知道特別是光電在陸地、陸域裡面的光電產業跟我們的生活區域這個接近度很高所以引起了這個社區的反彈也很大所以我們都知道環評他沒有辦法在光電計畫選址前實質處理生態議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9758.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9780.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
通常在選址以前要設置以前沒有辦法處理我們就只說我已經選定好了值我要設置了你才會環評嘛可是選址前的議題生態議題他也沒有辦法處理那環評也沒有辦法處理說同一個地區他到底要不要總量管制他已經累積了暗場和面積效應會達到什麼樣的環境衝擊他也沒有辦法處理對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9785.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9807.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
林委員報告我剛剛在事實上開始的時候簡報有提到嘛經濟部能源署事實上他有兩個這個審定原則包括剛剛林委員講太陽光電環境與社會檢核機制這個是第一個嘛第二個是設置地面你講的照稿念誰不會讓我問你他在這個環社的這個環社檢定整個環境與社會的檢核機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9813.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9814.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
他用在哪幾種光電廠?餘電共生餘電共生現在佔多少比例?你也不知道我是要告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9827.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9846.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我必須要講光電具有親近社區的特質而我們不要說你已經就要設立在這裡了我們再去吵架我們也不要說沒有指定的一個旗鼓多大的面積設立了多大的面積然後大家在那裡抗爭也不得沒有辦法解決之道 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9847.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9873.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
所以大家在講說這個環社減核你有沒有了解跟你的業務有沒有相關環境跟社會減核嘛你看啊就在這裡啊他減核什麼東西環社減核他們要先去辨識他們透過圖資要先去他不是在業者要申請的時候去處理喔是政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9874.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9899.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
既然你要發展綠能然後我們反對不安全的核電要發展綠能那你就要更有責任一點這個責任就是你要去檢視全國的土地哪些要去嚴選是較沒有生態疑慮的走上面他就先可以做了然後稍微有生態疑慮的你就要進一步去檢核 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9901.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9906.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
這個檢核的基礎可能就要試射到你要去投資還有所有相關行政資訊都調出來有沒有地址敏感他的生態投資是什麼他的災害減緩的投資是什麼這個是不是都環境衝擊的評估是不是都是環境部的業務那我現在問你為什麼為什麼經濟部在運作現在的環社檢核沒有環境部的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9931.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9946.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
因為這個主責單位是經濟部能源署但為什麼沒有目的是業主管機關進來幫環境上把關然後能源局自己全員監裁判自己去判定地址敏感生態圖資災害減緩嗎然後接下來進行現場勘查跟生態情報圖繪製的時候你看我們的圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9955.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9976.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
還需要檢核現況跟圖資比對然後還必須要做生物分布自然的這個環境的狀態還需要去看這個地方的區域跟周邊生態系服務功能的確認還有鳥類熱點等等這個不是目的事業主管機關都是環境部嗎?再生能源是經濟部他要做環社檢核 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9984.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9995.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
一直都沒有環境的目的事業主管機關環境部你們的角色所以未來或許經濟部可以跟環境部來討論檢核到最後要幹什麼你知道嗎要辨認議題辨認說這個區域到底是 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10001.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10002.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
但是呢﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10030.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10033.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我們就強度不要一下子就談到環評因為你環評的設計裡面也是門檻很高的啦你現在失地還要再綁一個2MW那你未來的大面積要做環評的你講了日本的4KW的那個也都是門檻很高幾乎沒有幾個暗場需要做啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10055.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10071.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
但是呢這麼高的門檻大部分的案場都不用做可以解決我們現在對光電廠設置的很多的衝突嗎事實上林委員你假如覺得經濟部在這一塊是求嚴兼裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10071.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10074.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我沒有問你這個我現在問你是部長你現在進入環境的門檻定的這麼高可以解決現在設置光電暗場的這個社區居民跟業者設置這樣的衝突嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10089.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10101.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
這個部分喔環評只是任何一個開發行為裡面一個步驟啦他也不是環評過了大概什麼都就你講這個都是你連門檻盯那麼高連大可能90%的暗場90%的暗場都不需要都不會跑到環評程序搞不好95%的暗場都不會跑進去環評的程序那我現在問你是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10114.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10136.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
這樣子你覺得妥當嗎?所以我們在講說以現在在運作的環社檢核為例他為什麼優先選漁電廠、漁電光、漁電型的光電去試辦你覺得呢?因為可以善用除了漁電可以共生嘛那對事實上對農業部移民這些事實上他有正面然後又可以發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10137.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10162.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
對嘛所以撿最便宜的我講最直接的因為養魚它的遮蔽率40的狀況裡面是很容易繼續養的產業跟光電是可以共同共存的嘛那如果把這樣的這個檢核機制放到營電型的或者是農地型的光電不是養殖的喔你覺得會是這個結果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10165.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10185.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
假如有檢討的空間那我們就去檢討去修正不是有沒有檢討的空間我在問你啊因為我們都知道現在的農地型的有就是不利耕作地區嘛對不對 局長、署長不利耕作地區嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10187.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10215.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
目前農地並還沒有開放農電共生那現在是在試驗階段對啦你就是不良耕作地區才可以設置嘛目前是只有那你們開放營電型現在要預計要開放營電型人家說因為你設置了暗場的地方不過所以在找地嘛所以找上了農地相對於不良不利耕作地區你就找農地找可耕作的嘛那我們都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10215.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10231.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
光電跟我們的農業作物是要搶光的嘛這有存在一種搶光的疑慮所以一般來是做農的有賺錢的不會去倒光電板嘛但是呢我們知道到時候是誰可能撩錢的農作物撩錢的還是不付成本的 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10237.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10263.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
就可能會想要啦但想要的這些人其實可利於耕作的但是在這種有利於耕作的狀況裡面世界上你要考慮到的是國家的糧食主權的問題啊所以我今天我今天要跟你們講的意思是說那我們這個環境和社會檢核機制它當然有它的作用存在我們希望它法制化 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10264.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10270 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
署長、部長把這一套環境跟社會檢核機制法制化然後讓它相對於環評它的強度可能沒那麼高但是又可以解決我們在於這個光電營運的這個設置上大家比較容易衝突的說因為資訊不公開嘛現有的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10291.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10314.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那如果我們進行環社檢核的時候他必須先檢核整個區域的到底適不適合設置然後就有公民參與的機制進來大家都一起來討論我們這個地區到底合不合適合適的我們就讓他先做有緩衝的也來考慮要緩衝條件是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10316.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10325.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
然後不行的我們就把它真的是讓它變成迴避區這樣子避免未來我就要做了你給我環評大家就吵架然後也可以去處理同一塊地區到底我們要設置多少面積要累積多少的這個發電量對這個地方整體的衝擊環境衝擊居住的舒適度的衝擊景觀的衝擊可以降到最低 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10347.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10363 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
所以我現在要講就把這個環色減和機制那你覺得在你們那麼高的環評門檻跟不需要環評中間把環色減和的這個機制放在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10364.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10366.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
可以放進來嗎?是啊!現在能源局自己受環社檢核求援兼裁判嘛! |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10379.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10389.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
連環社檢核都沒有環境部的角色進去他有能力做這一些嗎?生物分布、自然環境狀況的檢視生態系服務功能的確認水鳥、水鳥、鳥類分布的現勘然後他有辦法圖資比對這個生態環境跟這個區域的狀況緩衝區的距離要多少他有辦法知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10404.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10411.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
他的專業也不在這裡這是目的事業主管機關環境部的專業所以我現在在講這裡就是說我最後講一個結論啦我們要擴大光電環評的認定但你的草案標準還沒有出來但現在看到你的門檻是相對高的所以我們今天講說相對於這個門檻那麼高你要設置的那麼高把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10430.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10432.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
而環社檢核的機制入法然後讓它強度沒那麼高但是每個案場解決我們觀念設置靠近親近社區裡面的衝突的問題但是呢我在這裡講最後一個是農業部門跟經濟部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10448.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10465.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
你們要提出你們自己的農業部門的空間部門計畫你的整體農業面積要怎麼樣才能達到國家糧食安全的自主不是大家一直找地要設光墊然後你就一直再放出去你的農業部門空間計畫再生能源的空間部門計畫要盤點出環境的資源還有空間規劃的可行性跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10475.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10490.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
這些考量跟環評這個認定標準一起都放在一起這才是完整的啦好 謝謝林淑芬委員也謝謝部長請好好研議這個衛環委員會會持續的監督接下來我們請廖偉祥委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10509.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10512.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
主席好,有請我們薛部長好,請部長部長你好你們的報告認真拜讀喔那裡面有提到現行認定標準所規範應實施環評之規模太陽光電相較於其他能源開發容易且除液後較容易恢復原土地功能對環境之影響較小所以只把濕地納入規範對嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10537.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10564.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
是,那請問部長你有實際去看過對土地的影響嗎?實際去看過哪一個案場?我並沒有關電廠這一塊並沒有實際去看過對阿,那你沒看過怎麼會做出這樣的結論呢?這個是行之永年環境部跟以前的環保署好,那你看一下是,那部長你看一下這個國家地理雜誌拍出來的這個案場,您知道是哪裡嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10565.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10588.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
這個之前好像有報導過在南部某一個對你有沒有去過有沒有了解啊這個沒有去過沒有嘛對不對沒有了解對不對它是在台南六甲區的廢棄光電廠對它新聞見報之後他們就趕快去拆除囉新聞就沒有熱點但是我們事後有請團隊去實地走訪我想請問部長這樣子的土地能不能種植 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10590.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10611.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
當初廢棄設光電廠應該本來就是不適合種植才會去設光電廠嗎我覺得您這樣子有點就是這樣子的講法是有點不負責任喔因為這樣案例是很多而且也有很多綠能發電可能違規或是種種因素被取消發電之後廠商倒閉破產沒有餘力去解決廢棄光電板 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10613.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10633.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
所以請問部長因為沒有法規去認定這些光電板是廢棄物還是建築物所以地方政府有時候只敢裁罰不敢拆但這也會對環境造成衝擊環境部有沒有打算要協助地方政府來認定或拆除我想全職單位當然在執行面是地方政府啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10634.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10654.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那環境部會來協助假如地方政府有需求當然環境部會來積極我覺得部長這樣聽起來都有點小被動喔聽起來是很被動的喔再看下一個案場喔你看這個部長你知道這裡是哪裡嗎剛剛我想很多委員可能也有提到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10656.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10675.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
應該是也是在南部的這個對台南七谷我有聽到旁邊有跟您講喔現在光電面積已經到了3500公頃來到了整個七谷面積的三成餘溫變成光電田然後氣溫也飆到43.7度請問部長你真的還可以說太陽光電板對環境沒有影響嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10676.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10701.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
事實上可能委員談到的是某一些這個特別的一個情況啦剛剛我們也談到一電公升的這一塊事實上它的面積不可能全部覆蓋啦部長您看一下這個就是這樣嘛對不對那我想要跟您講的是我們沒有要阻止再生能源的發展我們也很認同再生能源是我們現在國家發展需要的地方可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10703.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10729.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
就是你們持續就這個開發行為實施環境影響評估及範圍認定標準收集各方意見有沒有也參考這個七股的前車之鑒一定範圍內的光電板的總量有沒有辦法管制不要讓光電板密度高到對環境有衝擊事實上我們未來修法的方向是對單一的開發案件超過某一定的面積或某一定的這個發電量 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10731.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10733.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
反正基本上你們現在按照目前的法例的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10748.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10768.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
這只有地點在重要失地面積才需要做環評不是嗎?以現有的辦法是這樣但是剛剛林委員齁前一位林委員他也特別提到在這個過程當中經濟部能源署也會針對他非失地但是是一般部長我這裡要打斷你喔我知道你會全部都推到經濟部那裡去可是問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10770.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10795.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
現在目前的法例我想重要失地才規範要做環評那我想請問部長我國重要失地面積有多大根據廖文你這邊講的對是不是只有1.1%那我們台灣本島跟離島的國土面積總共有三萬六千一百三萬等於是六千兩百平方公里喔所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10796.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10817.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
我們就來看看到底環境部主管的環評作業對於守護我們環境的能力到底有多大呢用我們我國的重要失地的總計再處理這個這個我國的國土面積結果你們可以做的只有1.1%的環境的管理和環評那另外的98.9%呢就是你剛剛說的經濟部嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10821.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10832.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
但是不只是只有這些重要失地占比國土陸地面積的1.1%的土地啊才是環…事實上在這個之外還有很多很重要的需要做環評嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10834.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10858.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那說到這邊我想請教這些規定的法令出處都是來自於開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準而這個標準的法律依據是環境影響評估法的第5條第二項要求訂定的對不對給廖阿文報告齁事實上我們的民眾或者說委員很多都認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10860.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10872.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
環評是說開發案當中感覺上好像只要環評一過接下來就就大概好像就沒有這個意思但是我想跟你講請教這樣子環境影響評估法的主管機關是誰環評當然是環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10876.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10893.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
對那其實基本上環評的目標也是希望你們可以為台灣為我們國土環境做出貢獻做出主要主導的能力嘛對不對是那我再另外請問開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準的制定跟修正需不需要經過立法院三讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10895.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10913.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
這個是執法的部分不用嘛對不對所以既然在這樣既然這樣子喔所以看起來針對這個光電的環評業務今天環境部今天不是不管而是刻意不管欸有大開光電後門甚至刻意不作為就推給其他主管單位來管理欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10914.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10926.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
因為今天所以你們今天環境部的專案報告才會像是第三頁內容中喔發生了環境部角色錯亂的情形竟然去替經濟部宣傳經濟部在進行環境業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10928.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10943.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
像是環境部說經濟部有制定兩個行政辦法一個是設置地面型陽光電設施景觀及生態環境審定原則另一個則是影響漁電共生的太陽光電環境與社會檢核機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10945.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10969.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
那明明都是跟環境審定環境檢核有關為什麼環境部要放掉這樣重要的環境業務讓外行的經濟部來把關國家將近99%的陸地面積的環境呢講到這裡當然抱歉部長我想要講到這裡我想要表達的事情當然你會覺得說好像是國家的這個能源發展政策然後大開大門喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10970.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10985.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
所以這就讓我們覺得很疑惑那我們環境部從升格到部的話感覺功能好像更喪失了那環境部明明知道經濟部的能源署無力管理早就也被監察院糾正了 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10986.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11003.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
環境部明明知道事業開發單位像是臺堂臺堂他把保安零給給人開發做光電但臺堂自己哪會管理也因此臺堂一樣也被監察院糾正的有太多的案例明明環境部都知道也可以管但偏偏環境部就制定出一套擺爛的遊戲規則再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11006.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11017.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
辯解說自己沒有違反遊戲規則在開罰的執法也因為地方自治的關係環境部都可以說是地方政府的事讓我們感覺現在環境部是沒有存在感的 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11018.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11046.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
別忘了去年環評委員聯署要求修法解決環境部光電無能的困境當升格前夕的環保署也承諾推動修法但至今已經一年了毫無進度修正的草案也沒有預告所以我今天就很想要送環境部四個字這四個字叫做光電無能我光電著一個無能的環境部就是因為環境部在光電的發展上面管理是無能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11047.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11074.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
所以我要求環境部可不可以一個月內提出具體修法進度或直接要求3個月內要草案也預告不能夠再好像事不關己一樣可以嗎給廖委員報告事實上廖委員所描述的並不是這個能夠精切的描述行政院跨部會之間的合作那廖委員假如覺得說像剛剛提到的那部會應該由環境部來主責我們也非常樂意來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11076.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11099.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
承擔這個責任但是這個因為是之前就已經行之有年所以我們想說從今天的質詢開始你們可不可以積極的也參與我想不只我一個委員提出這樣子的見解我們就積極來進行因為之前大概也沒有這方面的反應所以我們也覺得說整個案子在進行的也蠻順利的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11100.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11128.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
另外站在行政單位的角度當然來配合好我們今天我想整個委員會開完我想您也該可以了解為什麼所有的委員很關心這件事情希望未來環境部可以積極有所作為一向很積極謝謝部長最後一題好SRF也就是固體的再生燃料原料原理就是將廢棄物燃料化但是最近也是不斷的受到學者環團和地方政府質疑請問SRF是不是假綠呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11129.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11155.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
我們已經在進行整個SRF的修法的階段以前是從後端的污染管制現在要拉到源頭把SRF的產品的分類那這樣子就會跟國際接軌情況也會改善問這一題就是希望這個部分也可以盡速的修法來進行謝謝廖委員謝謝部長謝謝廖偉祥委員接下來我們請陳秀寶委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11165.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11166.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
請環境部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11171.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11194.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
好陳偉豪部長早今天本席呢專程當我們委員會來質詢要跟部長來討論一下所謂的公開說明會的理想與現實一下本席提出的問題也請部長這邊你就直接肯定回答是或不是對或不對可以或不可以就好因為我的執行時間只有4分鐘根據貴部的環境影響評估公開說明會的作業要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11194.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11214.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
公開說明會的意旨就是在舉行公開說明會是期望能夠落實資訊公開跟民眾參與的原則然後呢貴部你們在定了所謂的議程告訴開發單位你只要照這些程序開完就可以不管什麼狀況只要你書面資料上來我環境部就是認定你有完成這個程序完成這個說明會部長在這邊本想要告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11219.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11233.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這樣的程序就是在包庇和縱容惡劣的開發商透過粗暴的手段來走程序走過水那這個接下來請部長跟在場的各位看一下3月14號金鼎公司在張冰開的說明會有多麼荒謬 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11258.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11258.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
聲音出不來了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11282.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11299.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
好沒問題是有聲音的現在時間也有限我們先把影片看完好了好OK來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11310.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11328.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
事實上場面很混亂因為其實部長本席在這邊本席要告訴你本席身上有9萬8千票彰化第一選區我們鄉親的授權本席要問你說這樣子混亂的說明會現在有聲音了我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11341.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11359.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
民意代表或者是一般老百姓我們都會給你登記時間發言請尊重這個會議這個會議現場是一個說明會我告訴你不要用民意代表身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11369.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11386.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
如果今天我們要上法院的話,奉陪,請你放下麥克風!這裡不是你可以拿麥克風的地方!不是我們的政策!今天你要取得在地民眾的同意!今天的門檻就是要取得在地民眾的同意!民眾有同意嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11398.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11400.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
致謝各位,我們會繼續報告,謝謝,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11427.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11434.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
好部長您看一下這樣子混亂沒有程序沒有秩序的說明會您覺得是成立的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11437.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11463.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
現場這麼混亂現場這麼吵雜然後所謂的會議主持人他直接就是念完投影片然後宣布我們成會這樣子是合理的嗎在這邊本席要很明白的告訴我們環境部3月14日這個經理說明會的瑕疵跟荒謬的部分有民眾登記發言程序中他不斷的表示我有登記但是經理公司一直都沒有讓登記第一位的這位人士發言然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11464.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11490.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
在這個過程之後他把他概念的念完之後他就宣布他成會了第二個部分就是金鼎焚化爐在地方是重大的爭議這個案件明明知道會有很多人來參與但是他找了一個非常小的場地然後找了四星都找了人把所有的會場的位置都佔滿了有不同聲音的人根本進不去然後呢他直接金鼎公司就跟這些人說你們不用進來你們地順便就好還善笑說啊場地就這麼小啊你們進不來你就不要進來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11491.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11508.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這個期間我的助理也不斷的提出程序問題跟秩序問題那所謂的會議的這個主席他也不處理然後在一場混亂中在叫囂之中在整個的吵雜的這個環境當中他自顧自的把投影片念完了告訴大家我們程序走完了我們成會了這個部分呢我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11509.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11521.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
部長您看了這個影片你也能夠理解看到當時的場面是多麼的混亂本期真的強烈的質疑說這樣的會如果是真的是成會我們到底還有什麼程序正義可言在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11524.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11534.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
本席很認真的問一下部長您覺得這樣的說明會他是成會的嗎?他是合理的嗎?部長您只要告訴我你們你覺得這個說明會他合理嗎?他成會嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11545.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11566.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
現場很混亂嘛吼那有沒有按照剛剛陳文你不是有第一章這個講到程序應該怎麼樣包括有讓參與者發言的機會不過你剛剛講沒有沒有我們到時候就按照如果環境部你們的立場是認為說這樣就是可以成會的那本席覺得環境部是獅子的你們也辜負了民眾的期待那你現在能不能告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11570.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11590.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
經濟3月14日在張彬的服務中心開了這個所謂的說明會在你們的判定他是不是成會因為我沒有現場參加我還沒有接到他們的報告所以我也不曉得他裡面是怎麼寫的那我們就根據我們的法條跟他部長因為主席也站起來他已經都給我很多時間了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11591.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11604.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
本席要再一次嚴正的告訴部長以及環境部的你們這些相關的這些成辦如果經鼎這樣的說明會你們認為有這樣的瑕疵有這樣子的狀況你們還認為他是成會的我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11609.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11617.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
你們就是在告訴廠商就是在告訴廠商說你們開發商就可以用這種粗暴的方式來闖關來走程序來走過水跟你們環境部會認定它是沒有問題的這個部分我希望環境部你們要審慎為之不要讓這樣惡劣的廠商開方便之門以上謝謝主席好謝謝陳秀寶委員那因為我們衛環委員現在到我們先來處理臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11637.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11660.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
來現在總共5案請一併宣讀臨時提案第一案鑒於再生能源開發屢屢引發社會爭議民間持續有再生能源環評認定標準加嚴等倡議目前環境部也已預定修正太陽光電環評認定標準請環境部於後續修法草案研議過程託予目的事業主管機關相關機關NGO團體延長溝通凝聚共識以達成環境保護與綠能推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11667.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11687.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
堅仇並顧的目標提案人委員黃秀芳、林月琴、劉建國、王振旭、陳秀寶第二案為避免開發行為因實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準修正完畢前以獲得開發許可之太陽能光電案場因尚不在前開標準規範對象之列 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11688.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11709.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
造成其開發行為對我國環境產生實質重大影響原因要求環境部於一個月內盤點未來可能需要進行環評之太陽能光電暗場研擬修法過渡期間之因應措施向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告提案人委員王玉敏、屠春及陳昭芝 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11711.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11726.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
第三案除漁電共生已有環射檢核進行法官外針對其他地面設置類型的太陽光電也應考慮開發過程中對環境可能產生的影響因此請環境部會同經濟部檢討開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11733.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11749.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
評估達一定規模且位於環境敏感區域的用地變更型地面光電應辦理環評提案人委員黃秀芳、林月琴、王振旭第4案現行環境影響評估法第5條以及其執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11749.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11759.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
開發行為因實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準第29條第7項規定太陽光電僅有位於重要失地才需進行環境影響評估目前處處可見大規模鋪設太陽能光電板的景觀以對自然生態、動植物保育以及居住環境造成嚴重衝擊援請環境部加快修訂時程並於一個月內正式提出草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11778.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11794.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
必達成環評法預防及減輕開發行為對環境造成不良影響之立法意旨提案人委員陳金輝、屠權及邱振軍、王育敏第5案109年環保署與經濟部、能源局所聯手推動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11795.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11814.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
回收清除處理體系系要求大規模進行太陽光電發電的業者當太陽能板需汰換時經上網登錄按規範收集由清除業者收運處理民眾少量使用者則撥打專線獲得協助處理然而除前階經濟部的計劃外 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11819.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11841.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
環境部尚未將其納入《廢棄物清理法》第5條之因回收項目．為敦促環境部超前部署．原此要求環境部於3個月內修改辦法將太陽能板列為因回收項目完備廢棄太陽能板回收機制提案人委員陳金輝、徒權吉、邱振軍、王育敏宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11842.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11867.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
好 謝謝宣讀那主席在這邊補充宣告因為等一下要質詢的委員也都已經到場所以原本宣告處理完臨時提案之後會休息我們就不休息讓已經到場的委員可以繼續往下質詢那委員質詢結束我們就散會那接下來我們就來處理臨時提案第一案請問主管有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11869.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11898.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
如果沒有意見就通過 有要修正意見再上台講沒有意見通過 來第二案如果有修正意見就要上台 沒有修正意見就是我們直接通過 有修正意見請上台發言這樣才能記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11901.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11916.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
好謝謝主席那第二案建議是在倒數第三行第三行的一個月內的後面鬥點後面加上會同經濟部好這經濟部也責無旁貸沒問題好就這個修正一下嗎對就這個好那案修正通過來第三案有沒有意見報告主席這個案子沒有意見沒有意見通過來第四案 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11934.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11958.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
報告主席那這個案子在倒數第三行第三行的地方前面數過來第五個字後面一個月一個月內改成113年6月底前一個月內改成113年6月底前那最後這一句的草案後面加兩個字預告 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11960.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11975.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那陳委員是呃勉強可以接受但真希望大家提出來是一個可以接受的版本因為已經從去年3月吵到現在謝謝好那就修正後通過好謝謝委員來第5案第5案跟委員報告那呃有一些呃建議的修正是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11984.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11985.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12006.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12021.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
好那第5案就按剛剛修正文字通過好那我們臨時提案已經全部處理完畢我們接下來就繼續質詢喔所以要質詢的委員趕快通知他到現場齁那接下來我們請徐巧欣委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12039.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12048.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
謝謝謝謝主席我們請這個我們請環境部跟經濟部好請環境部薛部長經濟部林次長上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12051.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12055.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
你們好,我想先請大家看一下我們即將在兩個太陽的一個問題就是說現在大家很關注的是太陽能的光電板那光電板完成之後可能是會有一些衝擊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12071.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12082.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那包含是像在台南的這個盧竹溝的社區裡面就有很多的民眾他們是感到非常的不滿那我們是不是先放一個影片給大家看一下好不好可以嗎請問這個影片OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12093.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12107.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
好這是我們實際上面到了這個爐竹溝急需需要沒有問題村子裡面的太陽能廠是在南邊這個是社區的居民說的熱度會往北邊送村子的最尾端可以達到43度 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12109.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12135.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
如果我們打開手機的這個天氣預報可以看到北門現在照理來說應該要是29度的氣溫可是當我們跟太陽能板配合在一起之後現在的溫度已經高達要40度左右所以這裡的居民很突然都反映說夏天實在是太熱了兩個太陽的問題不僅是在溫度上面日落的時候反射上面也讓居民感到相當的刺眼所以這些太陽能板雖然說是綠點 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12136.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12165.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
但是實際上對周邊的住戶來說根本就是一個折磨好,這個編程繼續放農田一公尺這裡來說我們的規定是講說農田一公尺的最低標準但是呢我們量給大家看如果我們從民宅拉尺過來看的話其實呢就只有12公尺我們沒有辦法走過去的部分頂多就是五步之遙真的可以說是非常的近所以導致了民眾感到苦不堪言 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12166.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12168.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
假如委員剛剛所講的是的確是這樣子的話當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12188.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12215.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
但是包括這個溫度的量測事實上很多的數據也顯示設置太陽能光電板不必然一定都會造成溫度的上升那這個案子來說盧竹溝就是造成了他們也抗議了民眾也相當的不滿意可是就您了解喔太陽光電設施跟旁邊的民宅最近要保持幾公尺的距離 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12218.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12240.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
這一塊規範可能我是不是能夠請經濟部．經濟部說明一下跟委員報告那有了這個相關案例之後我們現在檢討的結果如果緊鄰50戶以上的聚落我們現在是要求邊界20公尺20公尺但是這新的檢討有這些案例之後我們大概有最近修正了這個公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12241.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12268.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
其實你們當初就可以按照107年的時候經濟部能源署裡面談到的裡面就有提到啦就是50戶以上的聚落自基地邊界退縮20公尺以上會退縮15公尺且設高度1.5公尺以上的綠泥啊但你們108年的另外一個函式裡面講說呢最近至少是10公尺那為什麼在本案上面當時是選擇只要10公尺就好不是20公尺 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12271.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12290.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
在委員的這個個案裡面其實還有一些那個全屬的問題那有一些土地其實這個就認定的問題他有些全屬認定的問題有些土地事實上是並非是屬於我們講說是聚落其實簡單講有些是他們有像那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12292.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12295.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我問你現在檢討片段20公尺那以無足夠的案子來說怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12317.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12340.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
他都設了啊,你會叫他再往後退縮嗎?已經設置就沒救了,沒辦法了,居民就是很熱然後一直反射這個我們也有到縣地去做一些溫度的量測啦那我們大概也有實際上去做一些溫度的量測不過剛剛委員您提到的那個體感溫度體感溫度可能還跟你的濕度跟你的穿著這都有關你有在那裡站過一個小時嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12342.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12362.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
很熱我本人在那邊站非常熱居民都很熱大家都苦不開眼還有反射的問題我要問的是你們檢討之後變成要退縮20公尺那請問已經設置的以爐足溝這個個案來說居民都有自救會喔居民都非常的憤怒那要怎麼辦怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12365.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12385.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以根據這個案子我們未來我們現在應該說現在我們去做了環境調查監測之後我們也打算針對這個案子去設這些環境的監測點實際上的這一些溫度的那你設了一大堆的監測你沒有請他往後的結果還不是一樣居民的生活會改善嗎就是說我們用一個科學分析的方式來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12387.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12412.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那科學分析完之後確實對人民的生活產生困擾的時候你們要如何處置?分析完就完了嗎?再看沒有任何的規則規定可以要求那些廠商要還給人民一個居住的空間因為這個是已經計測暗場所以我們還是針對現況到底有沒有造成影響這個第一個階段要先把這個做清楚那我問你嘛造成影響之後怎麼辦? |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12413.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12440.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
那看造成什麼影響然後根據問題來提對什麼時候會去檢討報告會出來這個部分我們現在已經有一些監測的數據什麼時候我們會你們都已經去監測了你們已經改成20公尺了我們問說針對盧竹溝社區的民眾什麼時候會做完評估檢討報告會出來到底對於民眾的生活有沒有影響後續要怎麼檢討我想這個如果是一個比較完整的分析因為實際上溫度跟風向 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12440.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12440.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
一年． |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12472.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12500.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
好,我們謝謝許曉欣委員的質詢接下來我們請劉建國委員進行質詢好,謝謝主席,有請部長好,請薛部長好,劉委員好部長好部長,26日環境部要再召開第二次的碳會審議會,對吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12502.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12524.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
26日下星期那天是不是會決定碳會的價格?我必須尊重碳會委員會他們自己的決定因為我們在3月15日開第一次會議那很多委員事實上對這一塊感覺上是有一點點對背景需要更進一步的瞭解所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12524.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12541.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
也很可能齁當然我不曉得他們到時候決定會怎麼樣那就由他們來決定那原本我們當然這個主觀的期待是說能夠在夜底前有一個比較具體的結論但是看情況可能需要一些時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12542.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12559.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
好 了解我會這麼問是因為現在大家都在喊價格啦是怎麼喊 有人覺得碳會剛開始如果不超過不應該超過一百元當然也有人主張說要從五百元開始嘛變成能調高至每噸講到幾千塊了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12562.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12588.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
但是因為最主要我是看到部長在經濟日報的專訪在去年的時候然後認為這個每噸的碳會高於10美元就是將近300出的台幣是必然是必然然後請未來將朝向漸進式的方式來調高方向來調高這是部長講的嘛所以部長你認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12591.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12612.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
給留言報告 事實上因為這是公開講的 要喊價是很容易喊大家就是喊多少多少但是事實上站在行政部門的角度我們要衡量的因素說真的是蠻多的我們不是要受碳費當作我們主要目標事實上我們的主要目標是淨零 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12613.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12639.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
的這個大目標希望台灣能夠跟上國際的腳步在2030、2050順利達標所以這個才是我們大家很清楚就是說環境部的角度是能夠達到實質減碳碳費只是我們應用的一個工具那至於到底要多少錢當初我們是根據我們委託中華經濟研究院他幫我們做評估他們覺得以當時評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12643.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12661.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
兩年前的這個看法是說大概10美元事實上是可以的一個情況但是這兩年來我想國際環境各方面變化也很大我覺得環境部也有責任去考量整個國際的情勢以及國內產業的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12664.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12687.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
我希望大家有這種共識我希望部長講清楚一點但是也不是要讓部長現在馬上答覆說要多少錢所以部長不用這麼緊張好不好講太多了啦因為去年也是接受經濟日報的這個專訪說出這樣的一個方向嘛那因為如果一直掀的不絕我是覺得有人會趁機花這種叫做恐慌財啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12688.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12714.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
因為一百到五百字之間一直有人在講對不對那你會造成這個整個產業界的也會恐慌所以我才覺得說臺灣在這個一百人到五百人之間的焦灼那歐盟在去年10月已經開始實施探邊境的調整機制CBM然後2023年10月事行上路當時僅是僅要求這個進口商提交探險數據尚不需繳納這個憑證的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12718.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12744.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
2026的時候這個互惠的制度開始政治實施初期涵蓋五大產業2027對整個執行的全面評估尤其對這個低度開花國家的影響2034就要全面來施行嘛擴大到所有的其他這個產業了嘛你這個步驟都已經非常清楚的出來嘛所以我在想說如果照歐盟的這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12745.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12759.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
但邊境的調整機制要求產品在原出產國就進行檢探及支付相關探會但這個原產國如果沒有減少碳板或支付足夠的碳費就必須在進口時被課稅所以根據經濟部的統計這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12767.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12777.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
管制水泥、電力、肥料、鋼鐵、鋁等248項的產品其中臺灣就已經包含了212項了這比例非常高這貓親了也高達245億左右所以如果我們臺灣在2026年前沒有辦法讓碳匯與歐盟這個機制做一個一定的對接我們會付出慘痛的代價 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12792.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12808.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
給委員報告事實上西邊跟我們收集碳費事實上在某一個程度它有重疊的部分但是事實上它是各自這個運行在做不是說我們現在台灣要針對排碳量 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12809.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12827.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
二點五萬噸來收起碳費那就可以跟西邊一樣不一樣西邊事實上從去年十月份開始要求進口到歐洲根據剛剛劉文講的這五大事實上是六大產業裡面的產品他要去爆碳足跡 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12828.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12845.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
可是根據第一季他們所呈現出來才10%去報因為對歐盟以及進口商他們很多也是剛剛第一次才執行那我再跟委員報告一件事情本來去年美國要推CCA就清潔競爭法案事實上到現在都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12845.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12867.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
所以我們當然朝著我們目標在前進但是台灣也有台灣人的腳步那也請委員來支持環境部絕對會積極來做這一塊但是他不必然跟西半完全扣合在一起特別是西半他本來去年底想要把一些執行細則公布出來結果也沒有公布 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12868.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12882.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
所以這個是一個非常複雜的問題那我也知道國內到處很多名嘴都在講很多這些東西有些在這邊真的是告訴大家有些是逝世而回並不是真正的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12883.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12905.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我們跟經濟部事實上是一直有在次長期的密切在溝通在聯繫這一個委員可以給我們一些指導我把這個問題點出來啦我覺得這個相當複雜啦尤其很多都是要即將實施還是準備要實施那不一定完全去match但是那個基本上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12906.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12926.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
對接的範疇我想那個基礎還是要然後對廠家的溝通我知道部還屬施都有在包含經濟部包含環境部都有在做但可能要再提高那個比例我相信因為在 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12926.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12927.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
對每年 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12954.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12976.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
但是西邊要繳交碳費那個很多很可能是中小企業他事實上在台灣是不用繳碳費的還沒有到那個階段因為我們現在門檻是2.5萬對所以很多人就把這兩個完全掛鉤覺得相等只要繳碳費到那邊就怎麼樣事實上不一樣所以經濟部現在才一直很積極努力來協助中小企業特別受西邊影響的這些企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12977.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12992.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
對所以我這邊要特別提醒甚至要求說環境部還經濟部可能相關的這些的說明會讓廠家可以對更加清楚的可能要再要再強化了甚至比例要再提高好我們會來努力我的時間被部長講到生之後了抱歉抱歉講太多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12996.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13004.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
這個這個探會議題我想不只造成這個產業界的恐慌可能連一般百姓都會恐慌那經濟部明天又來召開這個電價匯率的審議部長還有次長林次明天會決定了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13012.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13033.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
謝謝委員我想那個電價審議會有它的運作機制當然明天會決定整個電價審議的那個結果出來是阿所以跟部長一樣都是尊重阿對啦對啦因為電價審議有它的運作機制啦當然我知道啦這個調整電會就是跟民生奇蹟相關嘛我們都很清楚我回過頭來了現在桃園台電 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13035.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13060.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
2023年當年就虧了1985億那累積已經達到3820億預估今年可能還在虧1850億以上甚至不會以下,絕對要以上為什麼?因為我把一些東西先省略掉時間的問題我在環境部事業溫室氣體排放量的資訊平台把台電的事業體這個碳排資料調出來我是初算一下2022年台電大約碳排1.9億公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13066.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13074.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
如果照部長接受經濟日報的這樣的一個訪問的回應一噸300元來計算台電在2022年就要繳大約586億新台幣我跟委員報告一下喔台電他發的電很多是賣出去的賣出去那一塊事實上是不用好沒關係來部長你就想這樣講那一個部分可以扣掉多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13094.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13122.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
比例多少至少70%以上至少70%以上我了解好像比例很高市長你要不要回應一下部長沒有講錯我想你慎重喔我想我想那個這個碳會增收它的機制我不是很清楚不過台電的發電並不是台電自己用它是提供給我們的一個這個它的一個這個這個需求產業使用所以這塊有一個機制會去扣除那台電發的電90%以上大概都提出去這樣的一個時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13123.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13150.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
對阿環境部部長已經講了說大致上可以扣除70%左右嘛那你經濟部的次長你沒辦法講大致上精準的數字是多少我說90%以上都是提供給下游的他的一個需求使用所以環境部長講70%你講10%就對欸90%是這樣90%以上對90%以上所以我如果粗估算起來586等於是如果依照你的算法可能就是要繳如果以300塊來計算就是繳18億嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13152.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13152.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
是不是這樣講? |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13159.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13183.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
就是以上嗎?你的以上到多少?到99算90以上啊?到100是90以上啊?你叫部長講的比較精準是70啊,不管他的數據正確與否嘛,對不對?他就講70,啊你講90。對。所以如果照你的講法就是說這個,台電他必須還是要繳納的攤位依照一噸300塊來計算,對,他就是58億嘛,如果照部長講的就是要100多億嘛。是不是這樣嘛? |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13185.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13213.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我想這個碳會要徵收多少我們現在不清楚嘛那如果以...我就說出估以300元計算我是用這樣來算嘛那按照機制的話我想台電他自己使用用電的話他可能就必須去接受那個這個碳會的徵收這樣對嘛就是說碳會徵收萬一明年開始起徵嘛然後就是如果照你的算法就是說有10%可能就必須要來講到這個碳率就是58億多嘛這個再增加的部分是不是要再轉嫁電匯上 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13216.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13241.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
電匯的成本如果有涵蓋這一塊的話他就必須在電匯的這個公視裡面跟審議機制裡面去做後續的處理那也就像我所講他可能都會反映出來這樣子我的時間到了啦對你又反映出來這幾天才要再調整電匯現在又講到碳匯的部分然後到時候又要再反映在電價上台電就只有一件事情在做而已就是電匯調整不漲這個事情其他的事情都沒辦法做了政府不是這樣啦不對啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13248.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13264.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
主席,你如果這樣的話,台灣社會社會才會接受這件事。你跟部長再回答我,我都很尊重的讓部長盡量講完。那你就很單純的回答我幾句話,就是,他去就去啊,不然怎麼辦,意思是這樣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13265.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13290.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
不是這樣的 我是說臺電他本身不是只是在做電價的審議而已臺電本身他負擔很多的一個這個任務第一個穩定供電第二個他當然也要去做這個降低排放這個二氧化碳的工作這是臺電本身要做的一個核心的一個工作臺電的責任啦社會責任對這個國家的責任我沒有否定過但是我從電匯的角度去思考嘛去跟你討論嘛不是只有長不長的問題而已嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13293.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13303.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
是所以電價的審理的時候他會考量不同的一個這個因素我剛剛有跟委員報告委員會在這個電價審議會裡面就考量不同的因素比如說他是不是要照顧弱勢他是不是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13304.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13308.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
好我時間到了我最後去要求社長好不好我們剛才討論的那個議題到底明年啟政之後台電需繳納多少的碳匯 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13325.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13325.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
謝謝劉建國委員的諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13344.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13357.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
接下來我們請張家俊張家俊張家俊委員不在羅廷偉羅廷偉羅廷偉委員不在楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在我們請張祺凱委員質詢謝謝主席請部長好請薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13375.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13402.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
張委員好校長好輕鬆一點喔好輕鬆一點校長知道那個美國有神秘51區嘛傳說那個是外星人的基地但現在在台灣、中華也有一個外星人的基地你覺得聽過嗎有,真的有聽過就是那個整個場地的形狀好像等一下畫面給畫面給那個校長給校長看一下來來委員給校長看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13406.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13428.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
這個就是臺灣的外星人基地上面有432座的打蛋機在網公在中華的黃金這個下場應該知道這還是那個網美跟網紅長期打卡的這個勝地看起來是很漂亮的所以叫做外星人基地可是很聳動的大家看另外這邊的畫面這是2020年 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13436.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13457.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
這些打蛋機啊校長這些打蛋機啊生鏽那有些都倒到那個海裡面去了這會不會造成污染會啊這個東西是應該是要好好去處理假如說已經這個都已經倒下去了然後就堆積在那邊沒有人在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13459.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13475.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
這是企鵝愛的地方這是養殖地在那邊嘛它造成的污染2020年當然民眾就去檢舉民眾去檢舉所以後來有做了一部分的這個清理我要執行之前前幾天我們就看了一下有做了一部分的清理可是它現在發生很嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13480.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13498.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
關鍵戶說他到目前為止這些打彈機這些發電的風力發電機沒有完成土地變更沒有取得使用的這個執照那更好玩了我剛才問台電喔台電說啊這個打彈機啊是不合法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13499.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13500.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
是。是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13515.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13519.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
這個問題嚴重在哪裡?我先講一下那個校長跟那個署長它是2017年2017年就發生問題嘛到目前為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13538.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13552.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
土地變更還沒過,第二,它的使用執照也沒有拿到,然後就丟在這裡了,到了現在看到的是什麼?地面就閃閃,很多都閃閃了,那它應該是個廢棄物啊,那丟在那邊怎麼辦?這個第一個有危險問題嘛,現在紅台天來,有汙染有紅台天怎麼處理? |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13559.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13586.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
這案子如同委員所講的他本身的程序其實都沒完成所以現在是縣政府彰化縣政府在做處理因為土地變更都沒有完成所以他完全都沒有相關的這些電液的相關的證照對阿所以現在就是拼在那阿拼在那現在誰先誰先所以他有時候會有污染的掉下來嘛那民眾這些檢舉可是對對這個海洋對附近的這個養科的民眾就是不公平了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13587.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13593.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
這是要處理那所以我今天執行的重點是什麼校長跟經濟部這到底什麼樣的慣至少 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13597.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13625.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
如果有污染問題環境部要去處理嗎?從執行面來講當然環境部是監督的單位這個彰化縣政府環保局應該要積極來處理這一塊那他需要環境部來協助我們非常樂意應該要來主管機關是經濟部對不對還有一個單位土地使用的問題是來進步所以今天本席非常明確的做一個要求3個主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13628.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13657.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
環境部、經濟部跟內政部對於現在大家都在探台電的錢對不對搶著建這一些根本就不合法或者後來本來是合法後來廢棄了很多那工界的案子是在海邊對不對清水那裡也很多啊很多以前要賺台電的錢的做完之後就廢棄的也都非常多或者不能用的很多啊廢棄的清水那裡就非常多對不對那對於這一種不管在海邊或者清水那裡現在已經沒有用的廢棄的或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13658.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13669.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
他已經不再利用了我覺得這三個單位有責任是不是要定一個搞不好應該是一個法是要定一個法律還是要至少有一個要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13670.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13691.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
給張維恩報告這個基本上現在廢青法裡面應該就有這個責任當初設立的他本來就要去負責去清除啦所以社長本來就是設立環境部跟環保局環保局處等要處理對不對是我們才根據那個辦法請地方政府就要去執行的那當然這裡面或許會牽涉到這個經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13695.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13721.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
所以經濟部、農業部的署長就是像這一種你們就不會去買它的電嘛對不對?它是違法的這個發電的設施嘛不會去買嘛對不對?不會變往去買?這個沒有執照的當然不會買不會買 對不對?好我再強調一個點齁這個不是只有在這個外星人基地在彰化在全台灣包括苗栗的青山來全台灣很多剛剛我們的委員不是也提了嗎?台南六甲的這個廢棄光電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13724.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13748.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
現在大家急著要賺台電的錢拼命的做這種發電的設施那現在一堆的污染或者一堆都沒有清理的今天本期非常明確的要求有這麼多已經廢棄或者沒有用的請環境部、經濟部跟內政部坐下來好好談一定要擬出一個解決方案可能是訂入法律案那至少要一個要點技術清除好不好不要繼續造成污染好謝謝張委員好謝謝校長、謝謝署長、謝謝朱姓、謝謝好謝謝張綺開委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13754.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13761.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
接下來請蔡易瑜蔡易瑜蔡易瑜委員不在請伍麗華委員進行質詢謝謝主席有請薛部長好請薛部長好吳委員好部長您好我們都知道在去年的年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13784.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13805.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
我們蔡總統有親自主持一個碳交易所的一個接牌我們也看到很多的企業都在忙著取得碳匯要應付環評或者是商品的出口我自己知道的是有很多大企業他們其實都在買地 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13806.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13827.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
中樹而且很多是良田我也是在想說未來會不會有一天我們都看不到農田種植這些我們生活所需的這些蔬菜瓜果會不會全部都變森林我也是在想會不會進入到這樣的一個時期那最重要的是去年年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13828.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13846.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
環境部也預告了一個溫室氣體減量的額度的交易拍賣移轉的一個管理辦法草案那最主要是為了要建立我國有一個公開透明的自願減量交易機制想請教部長預定何時上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13847.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13862.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
事實上剛剛吳委員所談到去年8月7日蔡總統到高雄探權交易所揭牌那去年的12月22日在台北事實上探交所已經有國外的探權第一筆交易 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13863.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13875.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
根據碳權交易所他們的規劃事實上這個月底或下個月初國內的碳權也會去交易所以我們非常鼓勵國內的企業去購買這些碳權 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13879 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13906.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
所以大家都現在都搶得先機嘛但是在我們環境部推的碳費裡面目前為止我們是不接受這些碳全氣底碳會不接受碳全體碳會對到目前是不接受那我就要問一下囉因為你們就有一個其實你也還沒告訴我何時上路啦你還是補一下答案預定何時上路這個預告的草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13907.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13935.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
我們12個執法因為去年2月25日蔡總統公布接下來環境部來積極推動12個執法預定何時上路我們已經有7個執法已經公告在執行的就是7個已經在執行了對 然後一個是預告還有4個跟碳費相關的預計這個月底會去預告我剛剛問的是這個交易拍賣移轉管理辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13936.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13943.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
那我也看到你們在網路上有一個溫室氣體自願減量劑抵換資訊平台上面可以看得到注冊的、通過的、核發的額度因為你剛剛說不能取得額度那現在這一些人呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13952.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13968.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
他要申請的時候他必須要依照環境部認可的減量方法來撰寫一個專案計畫書最後才能夠取得那個額度那我想請教一下目前有哪一些減量的方法因為很多人想知道又不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13969.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13997.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
事實上根據我們網站上公告的大家比較關心的就是吳委員講的包括自然碳會就是說未期買地然後種森林這一塊是農業部在主責但是他們已經也把草案也大概出來了但是這裡面的重要關鍵是說他假如要這個申請自然碳會他一定要向環境部來註冊登記那我們會要求第三方公證單位還要去認證 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14000.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14028.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
我是問減量的方法啦方法學都已經有了所以就是方法學我知道的是環境部公布出來的這些減量方法大部分大概都是新植林失地啦所以我想要請教一下林保署就是除了這些新植造林之外目前呢針對這些現有的森林竹林你們有沒有提出相關的減碳方法供環境部採用 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14029.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14045.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
是跟委員說明現在只有一個照領指令的方法學就剛剛委員有提到的那現在農業部已經送出總共三個方法學到環境部包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14046.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14075.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
深林的經營竹林的經營還有就是現在畫面上的這三個因為我有做功課還有改進農業土地的關於肥料那些的我現在就是想要了解因為我們就是很關心竹林、森林因為我們其實很多的原住民其實我們都擁有森林擁有竹林那我們就很關心說因為我們看到公布的早期都是只有新植林 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14076.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14103.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
我們覺得不好啊因為新殖林只是為了要拿到最高的碳匯可是會降低生物多樣性對吧那個部長對吧我是希望說像你們過去林保署做的那個FSC的森林驗證的那個那套東西我是希望說你們也可以納入生態系統的服務像這些既有的成林老樹啊他還也是有固碳能力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14104.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14127.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那些土壤啊那個都很重要我們不能夠因大失小啊我們要想的是永續啊有時候我都覺得太短視了我們應該是要永續因為我們的競賽是要比50年100年的不是比這個10年好不好所以我希望這個部分要去研究一下那另外就是我們的這個草案辦法第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14127.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14142.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
他所謂的事業體也是指這些公司、工廠、各級政府就不包含這些自然人那我就想要知道說這些私有森林的地主他未來怎麼參與他只能夠被這一些所謂的廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14143.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14160.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
來找嗎那目前我也很關心就是他連動的就是環境部都會要去做驗證嗎那我知道你們會回答我說因為個人的話這些驗證可能成本很高很麻煩但是我就希望說目前環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14160.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14178.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
我看到合可的驗證商家三家而且都是國外的那我是希望說國內有沒有機會來輔導因為我們希望不要壟斷嘛降低這個查驗的成本嘛那未來有沒有這樣的一個規劃就是希望一納入自然人 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14179.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14206.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
二就是鼓勵輔導國內的這樣的一個驗證的一個廠商那也希望第三就是培植國內相關領域專才是不是環境部這邊兩週內可以給我提出一個報告可以嗎好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝吳麗華委員的質詢接下來我們請鄭正前鄭正前鄭正前委員不在何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳委員不在我們請陳英委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14220.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14248.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
謝謝主席麻煩請部長好請學部長好陳委員好部長好我們今天討論這個能源對國土環境的影響那您是這個國立大學轉任的這個部長而且是校長轉任的部長那首先我想請教就是能源對於國土環境除了環境污染以外呢還有什麼樣的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14250.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14277.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
事實上它對包括人文景觀產業等等當然都是有非常密切的關係是它也可能就是會有更好的環境保護是那來提升這個生活品質是也有這些正向的影響對那舉例來說汽油跟柴油的使用我們徵收了空污費那它雖然產生了這個就是有產生空氣污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14278.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14298.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
但是呢他或許也可以更有資源來做環保然後間接也提升了國人的生活品質那我們一般就是關心都是這個能源產生的技術跟這個生產的成本那其實環境污染呢其實也是一種成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14299.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14314.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
所以即使說生產能源的成本比較高但是如果汙染的成本是比較低的時候這樣的再生能源其實都是值得我們去探討的好去發展的 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14317.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14342.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
但是剛剛講的這個關鍵關鍵在於我們成本到底要如何可以算得很精確很準確而且是要讓外界知道那您在擔任校長的任內在111年4月6號的時候有成立了這個循環經濟研究學院我們是非常的敬佩 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14343.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14352.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
因為部長您是材料工程背景的所以要知道要從經濟學的專業來解決環境的問題我們看一下這個簡報本期在111年10月5日的質詢的時候曾經有建議我們張子信前署長應該要有經濟背景的專業人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14369.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14398.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
特別是懂得環境經濟學的高階官員不過那個時候我們的這個張前署長好像不是很重視本席所提的這個意見不過呢我相信就是說以部長您的這個專業跟高度應該會更重視而且很積極的這個來延攬人才我不曉得部長對於我之前建議張前署長的這個意見你們看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14398.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14417.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
實際上我非常認同所以像譬如說我們的政務次長施文珍他的背景事實上就是國際貿易人文社科這個領域的專長我覺得以往當然環保署的時代他是以污染防治的角度看所以基本上會比較屬於環工 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14419.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14441.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
以及工程背景相關的但是現在環境部已經從污染防治變成這個一環管理或者說環境治理那當然需要更多社會科學人文領域共同進來包括政策的認定我們對整個環境永續要如何去發展應該要有更全盤性 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14442.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14463.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
更完整的思維所以你可以看到包括過我們的國環院現在也有一個環境治理研究中心也有氣候變遷研究中心那裡面的人員最主要是以人文社科領域的背景所以我相信大方向我們已經朝這樣在走但是需要給我們一些時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14465.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14489.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
謝謝部長我這樣一聽我就比較安心一點覺得我們有比較多的共鳴我們再來看一件事就是在我上次在審你們環境部113年的預算的時候我有發現是你們的研究院在整個研究方向好像沒有一個比較好的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14491.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14520.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
這邊我是建議特別建議部長希望你們要成立一個專業的研究小組那專門來負責做再生能源跟環境污染的成本估算這件事情很重要那除了做這個成本估算以外呢也應該要在事實的時候要公開讓全民知道那我舉例來說好了部長你知不知道你的這個阿祖的阿祖葬在什麼地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14521.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14547.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
阿祖的阿祖你應該不知道吧因為你要問我我也是不知道有誰知道嗎大部分的人可能不知道啦那所以我們用來發電的這個核廢料我要講的是因為它的半衰期至少有一萬五千年那這種能源成本如果說要精算那我們精算就是它的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14548.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14573.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
安全儲存的成本一定是遠高於這個建廠、維運還有生產的成本而且萬一洩漏對這個整個環境還有我們這個人民的健康安全的成本一定是遠遠超過這個使用這項能源的效益但是一般來說我們常常在計較在比較那個比較那個電費的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14575.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14597.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
即便有時候人家這個政黨之間用來攻擊大家都只會去算說啊什麼樣的發電是一度是多少錢認同我們大家都是很短視的我們只會看那個一度多少錢就沒有人去計算說欸那我們嘿現場成本多少那核廢料的儲存的成本對 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14599.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14612.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那儲存是一個成本重點是意外發生的時候我想那個成本就不是我們連去計算成本機會都沒有因為我們可能都死光了可能都已經都這個煙消雲散了 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14616.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14634.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
所以如果我們能夠真正掌握能源的成本然後以及這個考慮風險後實際發生污染的成本那我們就可以避免錯誤的政策的制定部長你認不認同這樣的一個說法我認同我剛剛已經講過這個成本事實上考慮的真的是很周全而且是長遠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14636.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14650.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
今天這個質詢花很多的時間講很多話其實我們就是在講這一個很重要的概念我們不能很短視那整個所有的成本怎麼計算才是最精確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14651.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14678.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
所以我最後要強調的是就是說部長您是我們首任的這個環境部的部長而且又是學者出身那在您制定的各項環境政策和法案修訂如果有一個這個充實的科學為基礎那同時我們儲備足夠的這個經濟專業人才我相信呢能夠替我們國家未來的再生能源的發展以及這個國土環境的保護可以找到一個最佳的平衡點 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14679.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14693.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
那環境部的政策模式也可以成為其他部會一個學習的典範我想今天就提出這些跟部長還有環境部所有同仁共勉勵謝謝好謝謝陳文對我們的取喜好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝陳英委員的質詢接下來我們請洪孟楷委員進行質詢謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14709.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14739.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
主席謝謝我是不是可以請林全能次長好來請林次長好林次長我想再生能源今天談論這個議題本席也非常關注那除了說環境影響評估以外更重要是我們也希望能夠有更多的再生能源來去對我們的能源政策來產生更好的一個影響雞蛋不要放在同一個籃子裡那本席現在特別關心就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14740.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14754.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
針對中研院他現在有講到是說我們台灣有適合發展的幾個地方幾個能源再生能源的方向其中一個是地熱能跟一個是海洋能我覺得這都是還不錯為什麼呢第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14754.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14772.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
我們台灣也是有一些這個地熱的一個樣態溫泉的樣態那還有四面環海所以如果說能夠讓我們有取之不清用之不絕未來的再生能源想像的話我想這可能會是對我們的能源自給自足有更好的方向次長你同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14773.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14800.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我同意因為基本上就是隨著科技的發展事實上能源再生能源的一個發展它一定是更多元化那現在是看到離岸風力或者是那個這個太陽能是成熟了但是往下走更看到我們臺灣的這個天然的一個這個地熱的資源透過科技的發展它應該有更大的發揮的對因為現在大家都提到是說不管是太陽能光電板它可能20年之後突然間這個很多的廢料它可能也是一個影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14801.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14817.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那也看到了這個風力發電它可能有破壞一些這個環境等等部分本席要提到的是北海岸本席的一個選區不管是石門、山芝或者是在過去12選區萬里、金山甚至到基隆其實目前都有廚藝的核能電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14818.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14839.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
除役的核能電廠包括合一、核二以及基隆的協和電廠這三個電廠可能在不久的將來也都要做轉型或是除役合一、核二已經除役嘛那我現在講的是說有沒有可能在這個地方來針對說去了解或是說加強快速的地熱能或是海洋能這邊來去做研究為什麼這樣講因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14840.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14866.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
合一合二場原本他就已經有完整的電網所以說他要去輸電如果說在這附近裡面有一個再生能源能夠來替換或是利用的話他的電網不用再重新鋪設對於我們的供電全台的供電或是北台灣供電其實是有幫助的再來是如果說北海岸地區不管是我們的海洋資源不管是我們的地熱看起來也都是有這樣的一個潛力 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14867.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14888.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
所以市長本席這邊現在在提昨天我也在教育文化委員會有跟中研院有做臨時提案但我想說能不能有更積極的態度我們怎麼樣去找不要我們自己好像變成是坐在金山上面的乞丐就明明我們這邊有很好的地熱能很好的這個海洋能但我們不知道那我們反而一味的去鋪電板 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14891.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14913.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
能不能說明一下我想謝謝剛剛那個委員提到的一個幾個目前有存在好的電網的地方能夠來進行更深入的研究評估那地熱也好或者是海洋能也好我想我們應該都有初步的研究計畫可以來做這個事情之前我現在只有看到地熱的部分只有在宜蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14914.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14940.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
好像我們台電只有在宜蘭這邊有做新北那邊也有在做這是沒有很成熟或是說沒有很大量我記得金山萬里那邊有曾經投入做探勘而且有一個類似像示範的計畫在處理中那我想這個部分我們都可以來做更進一步的檢視看看可不可以加速往這方面來做更好的一個這個處理那至於海洋能的部分可能必須透過示範因為畢竟這個科技的發展還有一些挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14941.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14960.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
那我們可以去做一些比較小型的實驗示範看看有沒有機會能夠再做更進一步的一個擴大的出入好剛剛本席提到這兩點我覺得這都是我們未來對於再生能源的想像尤其是2050淨零碳排即將到每一分每一秒都是挑戰因為每過一分鐘每過一秒鐘其實就離2050越來越近所以當2050到達的時候我們不能還是像現在一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14967.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14994.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
二十五十三十但是三十的燃煤五十的燃氣百分之八十都用火力發電甚至再生能源如果二十趴打不到的話還要用燃氣來做彌補那就高達八成都是火力發電我想這是我們希望在未來對於子孫對於我們這一代人的一個負責跟交代所以市長你剛有提到不管是小型的計畫不管是什麼有沒有比較具體能不能在一個月內給本席告訴本席說你未來一年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14995.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15011.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
要投入多少的經費多少的資源多少的計劃在我們北海岸地區能夠找不管是海洋能或是地能的這個探勘或者是說真的去找出可行的能源來去對接合一合二場已經建好的電網 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15012.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15036.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
好我想這個部分我們一個月內會提供更詳細的資料給委員您這邊好我們真的是希望是說要投入經費資源去找因為我相信這個是投資啊這個絕對不是虛擬故事我們如果說能夠用投資的角度找出我們現有的天然資源海洋能、地能、地熱能都是可以用的話那我們台灣以後取之不盡、用之不絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15037.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15048.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
那個比說我們要依靠國外比說我們要依靠天吃飯那來得更加的重要好一個月麻煩次長謝謝好我們謝謝侯孟楷委員的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15051.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15080.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
謝謝 |