| video_url |
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| 委員名稱 |
王鴻薇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:27:44 - 11:48:26 |
| 影片長度 |
1242 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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謝謝主席請考試院長貝提銘仁謝謝請周貝提銘仁貝提銘仁好貝提銘仁好辛苦了我想請教您在考試院也公職的時間非常長您覺得在我們的公家機關裡面霸凌的狀況嚴不嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
35.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
55.459 |
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霸凌案件因為從保訓會受理的霸凌案件來看當然還是有很多的確實蠻多的而這一次勞動部的職場霸凌事件引起這麼大的一個風波當然主要是我們一個優秀的公務人員之死 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
56.394 |
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67.25 |
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但是事實上我們這幾年也並不僅僅只是勞動部發生了我想整理一下我們最近幾年我們的優秀的公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
68.459 |
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89.853 |
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因為霸凌事件而親身的案件數事實上是非常多了包括在2018年的時候當時也引起軒然大波我們駐大阪的處長舒啟臣處長自溢身亡這個部分事實上當時監察院也有完成調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
90.894 |
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114.022 |
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可是監察院當時在某一個程度為了要幫我們的駐日代表謝長廷先生能夠去免卻他的責任所以只是去要求檢討這個蘇處長他是不是身心俱疲選擇輕生好再來看這個在去年時間並不久遠去年的時候我們衛教部駐聖保羅 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
116.323 |
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132.531 |
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拜事處的主長王之化先生墜樓身亡這個調查監察院也完成了調查而且監察院裡面調查的內容直指當時他的長官處長在職場裡面採用冷暴力 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
133.938 |
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這種也是一種職場的霸凌我們今天可能看到謝宜蓉的事件是因為她在言語裡面可能是非常的兇或者是非常急促或者貶抑我們的員工但是以這個案件她的冷暴力比如說同一個辦公室她就是不跟他講話她都要讓別人去跟他傳話 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
156.37 |
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當然這裡面還牽涉到他們的一些標案的問題同樣的外交部又有一個組長墜樓身亡好你以為這事情就只有在去年嗎事實上在8月份其實大概短短的4個月之前在我們的保發中心這是發生在一個工讀生 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
179.654 |
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196.893 |
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公讀生因為他要選擇去他希望能夠半工半讀繼續在這邊當公讀生然後他要到學校裡面去就讀碩士結果呢他的長官不允許而且用非常羞辱性的言論所以這個公讀生也因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
198.462 |
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225.849 |
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被職場霸凌而輕生然後11月4號這是勞動部發生的事情所以我要講的是在這麼短短的時間內這些不是只是職場霸凌而且是自殺身亡多麼嚴重所以我要請教我們的被提名人您認為我們現在的法令足以保護我們公務人員在職場裡面免受霸凌嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
227.082 |
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253.346 |
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我也有注意到剛才您特別提到說你若擔任院長之後你要修正公務人員保障法對不對第19條可是請問一下被提名人你知道其實全序部針對公務人員考機法已經在針對職場霸凌已經提出修法的版本了嗎你知道嗎那為什麼你今天完全沒有提到呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
254.548 |
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277.014 |
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因為它是大概是在列在考機法裡面大概請問公務人員考機法不也是考試院所主管的嗎對 它在列為層屬的其中一個要件沒錯 那我就很訝異為什麼貝提賓人你只提到公務人員保障法而沒有提到考機法呢你支持修考機法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
278.322 |
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305.507 |
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考機法現在他們是修正草案裡面把它列進來對 已經列進來了對 那列進來我們當然是肯定說這樣做是你支持嗎當然支持所以你擔任院長之後如果你可以擔任院長你會立刻把公務人員考機法的修正草案送出來嗎就是針對有關職場霸凌的你會送出來嗎對 考機法部分因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
307.985 |
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319.05 |
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他還有很多條文所以你支持我為什麼特別提到公務人員考機法待會我就要跟你討論到事實上當行政院長說謝榮兩大過免職 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
323.092 |
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350.628 |
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事實上以現行的公務人員考機法或懲戒法它事實上是有一些疑義的因為我們現在的公務人員考機法或者懲戒法完全沒有把職場霸凌納入嘛你們現在的修正草案事實上我支持的因為它不只是這個職場霸凌包含我們長期以來關心的譬如說有包含性騷對不對包含酒駕 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
351.969 |
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373.025 |
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包含獨駕對不對因為過去在我們的公職人員的這個考機法裡面公務人員考機法或承接法裡面沒有把它定得這麼明確但是我已經注意到你們現在考機法的這個草案修正所以我剛才一直在問這個提名人、被提名人你是不是支持因為所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
374.666 |
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402.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
您支持把包含霸凌包含性騷包含酒駕、獨駕都列入考機代改善還有如果累計打兩大過就立刻汰除、貶值你支持對,我們是支持把這些都列入考計劃裡面的項目之一那至於要列在哪一個層級那當然全系部他們會做審慎的思考所以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
403.595 |
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430.055 |
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所以其實我就跟那個被提名的人說因為我剛才就覺得很奇怪你一直在提那個公共人員保障法哎呀 遠水救不了近火我覺得你公共人員考積法因為我們要懲處謝怡蓉的時候你要有工具啊那你們現在事實上全序部已經完成這樣的修正只是一直都沒有送出你考試院大門嘛所以你可以趕快把這公共人員考積法盡快 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
430.997 |
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433.725 |
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盡快的送出考試院大門 送到立法院可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
435.066 |
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462.912 |
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除了這個條文當然沒問題但是因為涉及到其他條文比如說考機的等地等等那這部分可能全系部他們還要做一些延伸那我覺得至少這個部分為什麼我覺得有點急我們看到現在公務人員考機法第12條的部分他也是嘛他說除非有左列情況不得為一次計兩大過處分所以我剛才在講嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
464.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
478.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們的卓院長說我要給他計兩大過處分然後我要讓他免職我要讓他終生不能夠被這個任用其實這不是行政院長說了算嘛因為公務人員經過國家考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
481.26 |
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498.773 |
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他本來就有相關的法令保護他所以現在以目前的公務人員考機法我擔心的是什麼呢我擔心的是看起來現在行政院好像幫他做一個最嚴重之處分但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
499.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
525.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
到時候他要真正的進入懲戒或者他也可以再來申訴未必辦得了他而變成是一個你在風頭上在風口浪尖上你只不過是一個做危機處理但是我們在法令上不夠周全而且他在整個的程序上或有瑕疵的一個狀況之下反而根本沒有辦法真正的去懲處謝怡榮 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
527.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
556.023 |
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所以這就是為什麼我想在正好也趁現在今天的一個就是我們的一個答詢的狀況如果你有機會去擔任院長我希望能夠在公務人員考機法裡面趕快再做補強不用在未來我們做的這些職場的霸凌甚至造成公務人員或公讀生的輕生然後我們沒有法可以去辦它 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
557.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
584.343 |
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是不是是我們會朝這個方向來努力好另外呢我再請教這個被提名人你今天的報告書面所提出的報告第三段你的口頭報告五權憲法的設計將考試權獨立於行政權之外目的在於確保國家所辦理的公務人員選拔專技人員考試都能維持公平公正的優良傳統好所以我請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
585.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
594.515 |
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這能不能視為被提名人對於五權憲法對於考試權的一個肯定跟捍衛 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
597.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
616.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
因為目前憲法目前的規範是這樣那這確實對於國家考試來講確實在考試院辦理的話人民多數國連同胞可能會比較信賴或者肯定所以考試院是有他的功能所以你在你的口頭報告裡面看起來肯定了考試權 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
618.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
645.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
但是剛才黃國昌委員也特別提到過去在2020年的時候那麼你曾經認為考試院不宜由考試員來表達一個捍衛考試權的態度那我想請問一下以今天此時此刻我剛才講的這一段是視之為你個人的捍衛考試權還能把它視之為是考試院的態度呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
646.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
663.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
因為我在口頭報告是我個人在審查程序中的一個意見所以我可以視之為你個人在這邊捍衛了考試權而且也肯定了考試權存在的一個功能和意義可以這樣講嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
666.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
683.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
對 可以但是要不要會考試院這是涉及憲法的修正這當然是修憲但我剛剛講我要知道你的態度嘛對不對就像大法官來我們會問他你贊不贊成Face對不對可是Face還是要大法官去做釋憲啊但是我們要知道你個人所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
685.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
710.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
賴清德總統在他的總統選舉裡面雖然他其實比較避談於要不要廢考監可是他也確實他有很明確的說他支持廢考監所以你認為你的態度跟賴清德總統的態度有不一樣嗎應該不會衝突因為我是認為說考試院有他 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
711.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
735.043 |
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在憲法體制中存在的價值而且辦理國家考試也取得人民的信賴但是考試院因為考試院還有很多職權考試部分都是考試院辦理沒有錯但是其他人事行政的部分會跟行政院有一些職權劃分的問題那這部分很多人倡議說兩個機關要合併之類的那你繼續考試院跟行政院合併嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
740.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
755.541 |
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這部分我們是尊重大院的提議還有你個人呢你支持嗎因為你剛剛講到說有一些有重複的所以有人支持考試跟行政院合併你支持嗎對我們都尊重最後公民投票的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
756.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
773.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我覺得被提名人講話事實上是有在迴避前面看起來你是願意捍衛考試權的存在但是後面我講了賴清德總統我就覺得你這個有一些迴避了所以我本來是想問你你是不是認為你可能是末代的考試院院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
776.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
804.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
因為是受及憲法修正那我沒有辦法在這邊做另外院有一些廣大的公教人員會退休的軍公教人員非常關心的我要一一請問你你是當年的年改小組的成員那我相信你當時也親自參與了年金改革的部分但是現在退休軍公教提出就是有關於所得替代率的遞減 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
805.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
830.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
應該因為已經進入了已經好多年了所以是不是可以停止這個所得替代率的遞減你同意嗎因為如果停止所得替代率會使整個基金的財務狀況會比較不好所以這部分當然我們會傾聽各界的意見那當然這部分要做比較慎重的選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
831.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
859.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
所以你個人是可以來做請聽跟討論的嗎可以嗎還是說你不行因為當年年金改革就是這樣子已經定下去了對因為這涉及到基金的財富狀況那以現在的財富狀況雖然有改善但是到140年還是會有用慶所謂破產的危機那這部分真的要非常的慎重 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
860.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
872.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以你現在是以就是未來還是有破產危機所以不讓這個軍公教的這個所得替代率可以現在可以停止因為他們事實上已經被砍了很多了因為降低的話當然對他們的所得會影響沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
879.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
901.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這一部分我覺得就是我們的政府其實我們當時就是說說以財政說財政紀律然後財政的理由來砍軍公教年金但是我們在另外一方面譬如馬上就推出前瞻計劃還有很多的特別預算將近兩兆的特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
902.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
902.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
931.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
957.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
警消跟軍人的職務的性質並不是很一樣那因為軍人他役期短那退離早那退離率高所以才會設計另外設計一套退休的制度這是因為當時聯金改革委員會所有委員都同意把軍人的部分另外獨立來處理那當時並沒有處理到警消人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
957.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
982.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
沒錯 但是我們現在可以看到不管我們警消這個族群其實它的危險性也是相當高的那不管是我們有些重大的社會治安事件還有一些重大的火災事件我們也可以看到他們事實上是他們的危險性並不下於軍人所以這個部分你個人是不同意去比照軍人的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
984.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
986.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所謂的在職所得的增加是怎麼樣設計呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1007.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1031.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
你退休所得不能夠去比照軍人你是要債值所得有增加也沒有特別增加呀對債值所得譬如說警察他有警勤加急之類的其他所得那因為退休以後大家的生活方式大致一樣所以退休金在計算的時候就只計算本份和年資沒有把債值的危險性 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1032.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1059.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
或者辛苦度或者貢獻度把它計算在內所以都退休所得都不計算主管家級也不計算職務家級也不計算專業家級所以整個退休所得的設計是朝向用蝙蝠還有蓮汁來計算所以我們是認為說各類人員不只是警校人員如果他們在職場上有更辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1061.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1084.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
貢獻更大、犧牲更大的話那如果能在在職的時候給他們待遇那這部分應該比在所以你支持是警消部分當他們在職的時候提高他的在職所得對,這部分因為是人事行政總署還有財主單位的權限對,那我們只是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1085.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1096.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
整個退休的制度他的設計是這樣那如果在退休的部分做一些變動的話那可能會產生比較大的問題比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1098.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1103.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
竟然他的服役的時間確實也比較短但是呢這個警消他在整個社會上他事實上承擔比較危險的工作那不管在治安上 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1123.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1141.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
還有尤其我們這幾年﹐很多的重大的這個火災現場﹐我們可以看到我們的打火兄弟的犧牲﹐那我們也是覺得﹐其實在錦霄退休所得的部分﹐應該要去比照軍人﹐這部分事實上﹐在這個族群裡面﹐其實他們也是希望我們能夠幫他們爭取﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1143.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1143.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
公、警、消、組工會 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1166.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1193.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我剛才有聽到您的回答是說如果主公會會有問題的產生然後我們現在有公務人員協會法所以今天有關於公警消主公會現在看起來被提名人是不挺的囉對 因為大院的未還委員會已經在5月希望考試院提出公務人員協會法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1194.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1221.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
草案出來那7月我們已經提出去了那我們是希望在公布人人協法協會法裡面增強警消他們在這部分的權益那這部分確實其中最重要的一條就是讓警消可以組織特種的協會不然以前警消都必須參加內政部所以您支持協會的話也只是支持警消組特種協會那其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1239.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1241.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
好,謝謝王委員、謝謝被提名人 |
| IVOD_ID |
157439 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157439 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-26 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-26T11:27:44+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-26T11:48:26+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |