| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5185545278ec5b40715814f2fb89784c1bbb2820cd090d8f28bf225f845beb305dc74b8a2e1778a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張雅琳 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:06:54 - 11:27:28 |
| 影片長度 |
1234 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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主席好,有請備提名人請周備提名人備詢張委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
24.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
48.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
周貝提名人好首先因為其實上個上上禮拜發生這個勞動部的憾事其實我一直在追那我也收到非常多有關於勞動部內部員工的一些澄清以及我也聽到其他部會的一些聲音所以我想要就大家的一些聲音在制度改革的上面來跟貝提名人做一些討論就是說首先是在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
51.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
75.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
現在有些聲音是希望說可以讓公務人員來主公會但是呢我們的權序部很快就回應說在7月的時候已經提出了公務員協會法草案在公務員的協會和組織針對公務員的協會和權力已經有大幅的提升依據公務會法的規定我們來看勞工是必須具有這三個權力 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
77.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
104.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
團結權、協商權跟爭議權那現在就是爭議權的行使就是所謂的罷工行使的權利還是有一些爭議那我想要請問就兩個問題來請教就是被提名人你針對公務人員主公會這件事情請問你是支持的嗎那您對於現在提出的公務員協會法草案是不是可以比照勞工三權的狀況讓公務員來跟政府協商和要求相關的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
106.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
121.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
因為公務員能不能組公會因為公務員是在執行公權力那組公會會不會有其他的問題產生那當然要順頌那因為大院的未還委員會在5月 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
123.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
152.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
已經要求考試院提出公務人員學會法的修正草案那考試院已經在7月提出來大院也可以就新的學會法來審議那新的學會法應該也進步非常多包括連檻的降低包括學商4項從3項變成8項另外裁決機構的部分也都有做一些改進那更重要的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
153.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
179.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
可以組特種協會也就是說警消是都可以組特種協會警察的特種協會還有消防人員的特種協會這樣的話對他們來講是蠻重要的因為過去警消在中央可能要必須參加內政部的協會在地方就要參加各地方政府的協會那現在如果可以個別來組 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
181.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
209.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
專業的學會、特種學會的話就會對他們的訴求會比較聚焦所以這部分我們是認為說那既然考試院已經提出這樣的一個學會法會選行政院那也希望大院來就這個學會法來審議那至於裡面還有應該要再尊著或在修正地方那當然我們也會尊重大院的審議的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
211.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
213.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
警消可以組特種協會,但是在爭議權還是無法來行使,這個部分規劃要怎麼來處理? |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
226.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
241.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
因為爭議權就是所謂的罷工權的部分那因為剛有提到公務員都是在執行公權益跟人民的生命財產、公共安全沒有錯可是其實在國外我也看過消防員是可以罷工的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
242.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
256.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以想要請教您針對這件事情的看法因為很多國家雖然警校可以參加工會那有些國家像韓國、英國警察是不能參加工會那日本、新加坡 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
258.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
278.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
警校人員都不能參加工會那另外有參加工會的部分很多國家也禁止罷工的所以像美國、德國他們都禁止工會人員來相關的工會來罷工其實各國的規定不一樣那我們現在是希望朝著公務員協會法把它更精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
279.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
298.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
更能照顧警消人員的權益讓他們能夠在自己的特種協會裡面可以聚焦他們的權益、訴求可以比較有效果所以目前我們還是希望用公務人員協會法來作為一個比較妥善的解決方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
298.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
323.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
理解了那我想針對第二個部分就是有關於職安的部分因為其實民間也有在訴求就是說我們現在公務人員要適用職安法那目前人事總署其實有頒訂一個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法來要求各機關要來訂定各機關員工安全及衛生防護要點來保障我們的公務員但是大家也在批評這只是一個要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
324.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
345.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以許多處理的機制就沒有相對的強制力就變成是看機關的狀況來決定但是我們的勞動部其實有要求相關的事業單位都是必須依據職安法的規定來提供勞工各式各樣的保障所以也必須提出相關的防護計畫否則就是一個違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
346.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
368.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以我們現在來看政府對於公務員的保障是不是也應該要考慮來適用呢那因為您一路從擔任這個保訓會的主委人事行政局的局長、權需部部長以及叫考試院的副院長我想您對於這個公務人員的人事法規相當的熟悉所以想請教您針對於公務人員適用職安法您的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
369.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
383.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
因為公務員的工作環境跟一般勞工畢竟不太一樣但比較一樣的部分比如像工程的機關、教育業也就是公立學校還有倉儲運輸業另外各個娛樂休閒場館 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
389.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
419.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
交通的事業這部分目前也都是因為跟勞工的工作環境比較接近所以目前這五大類也都適用職安法好那我想問一下就是說所以您聽起來是部分相近的產業或是職業你會認為他是適用職安法對嗎目前是照勞動部的函式是適用職安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
420.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
440.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
但是我想這好像沒有辦法解決就是說大家的疑慮就是說現在的位階只是一個要點好像沒有所謂的強制力所以我們會在公務人員保障法裡面來增加一些條項、條文來增強這部分的功能公務人員保障法那預計的時程呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
444.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
452.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
您如果未來擔任考試院院長希望大概在什麼時候來完成未來我能上任我們是希望下個會期能送到大宴來審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
455.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
482.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好 了解那最後一個部分也想要來針對就是有關職場霸凌的部分目前我們職場霸凌其實是放在辦法和要點規範的內容那我想公共體系針對職場霸凌是必須要高度重視的尤其是近期我們剛剛講的這個憾事而且我現在也收到非常多的澄清所以這就更凸顯這問題的重要性跟急迫性可是我們的目前職場霸凌在相關的法規裡面其實是沒有定義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
484.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
506.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
勞動部歸納的定義就是這上面這幾項職場霸凌指的是在工作場合中同人間或主管及部署間的權利濫用與不公平對待例如像言語霸凌是公開羞辱、詆毀、貶低、責罵那行為霸凌就是故意刁難他的工作不合理的指令或孤立受害者權利的霸凌就是上級濫用職權對下屬進行不公平的對待或是過加 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
507.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
534.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
施加過度的壓力隱性霸凌是忽視他人並且在考核中不公平的評價或排除升遷機會所以大家其實有希望在公務人員保障法和公務人員考核法裡面去增加職場霸凌的條款那不曉得說您對於這個民間的建言未來如果您擔任考試院長的話你是否會啟動相關的延伤而且針對這個職場霸凌的定義你會優先來邀請學者一起來做相關的討論讓它徵定在法規之中嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
535.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
562.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
因為職場霸凌的定義現在相關法規都沒有明確的定義那現在只能靠司法機關靠法院的判決來形成那每個法院的判決對於職場霸凌的定義都不一樣那其中譬如有一個高等法院的判決他是認為說職場霸凌就是以敵視、討厭、歧視的目的那用 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
565.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
573.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
除序性以及積極的行為來侵犯他人的人工權、名譽權、健康權但是也一定要達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
574.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
598.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
要達到社會公認上認為已經超過容忍的範圍所以每個法院的判決其實都不太一樣理解跟認知都會略有差異啦所以我們是不是應該積極的來邀請相關的專家學者來把這個事情定義的更明確對 如果要入法就要更慎重因為像性騷擾防治法對於性騷擾的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
600.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
618.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
高達五行所以霸凌的部分我相信也是不是很容易定的但是我們會盡力來定一個更周延的一個法律我希望就是被提名的人如果未來您擔任考試院院長的話我希望您可以承諾這件事情一定會把它定入在法規之中可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
621.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
640.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
對霸凌的部分我們會在公務人員保障法第19條的部分來做一些修正那另外在公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法裡面也會有如果有需要的話也會在那部分落一些條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
640.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
655.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
好 了解那我想就是說就是我想跟貝婷銘做一個分析就是說為什麼我們在公務機關裡面非常容易發生這個職場霸凌的問題最主要我自己會認為有兩大項原因第一個就是階級分明權力集中 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
656.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
684.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
目前因為階級分明所以非常容易發生長官壓迫下屬而基層人員卻非常難對抗因為他其實不容易轉調甚至他們可能被轉調的時候他們想要調到其他部門的時候也會被刁難甚至會拉長他轉任的期間公務員又很擔心說如果他今天被刁難受不了他想要離開的時候他也會擔心他未來求職的問題所以變成在這個結構之下他非常難離開非常難脫身 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
686.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
704.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
好再來就是說許多公務人員其實並不知道自己如何有效反應霸凌他非常擔心他反應之後可能會遭受到報復或是孤立相對的一些懲罰雖然我現在是有收到一些民間的陳情他們是希望是不是可以建立一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
708.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
720.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我自己會想要聽聽看您的看法到底是匿名的機制或者是說我們可以建立一個什麼樣的安心申訴的一個機制讓他們可以好好的訴說不用擔心被報復呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
721.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
736.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這部分在未來我們修法或者底下的執法我們會定比較詳細讓這些遭受霸凌的同仁有一個很正常的順序管道能夠獲得保障我們會盡量來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
737.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
764.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
您現在有沒有一些想法呢初步的構想就是如何來建立這樣子因為考試院主負責政策方向那實際執行都是由各部會在做那最細節的部分會由各部會他們會去徵詢專家隨著還有各方的意見或者是說那不然我有個建議啦是說我們是不是可以考試院可以成立一個職場霸凌防治小組呢來負責相關業務的推動呢這個部分可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
765.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
769.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
對那個其實公園園安全衛生防護半樓裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
772.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
800.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
各機關都有一些防護小組那未來會提升到防護委員會這功能會使他更增強你剛剛說有一個防護委員會所以這防護委員會會設計在哪那個部門每個機關都會設可是現在大家擔心的就是單官官商戶的問題那當然如果是發生在首長考試院一個超藍中立的單位是不是更適合來擔任這樣子的角色這樣大家才能夠更安心的申訴呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
801.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
828.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那通常如果是機關首長有發生這種情況是由上級機關他們會處理上級機關可是我想這次這個勞動部的案例就是發生了這樣子一層一層分市長如果分市長有這方面的問題那應該由上級機關來處理還是說如果未來您因為我覺得啦站在我的看法上面我覺得考試院還是相對於大家來說它是分屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
829.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
847.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
他是不隸屬於行政院體系之下對大家來說是一個比較安心可以去申訴的管道所以我還是希望未來如果您擔任考試院長的時候是不是可以來研議來討論來設立一個職場霸凌的防治小組讓我們所有的公務人員真的可以安心的去申訴我希望可以考慮看看這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
848.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
871.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
是我們會就張委員所提的意見來研議看看看怎麼做會對所有公務人員會比較對我想我們今天做這些討論啊都是未來希望怎麼樣可以更照顧我們的公務人員因為我想公務人員如果安心穩定的話國家也才能夠比較運作的更順利所以我想這是一個非常重要的我們必須要很重要很慎重的去看待他們的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
872.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
890.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那再來就是說我們現在其實在工時的部分因為前陣子我在追勞動部的這個案子的時候我發現有一個假打卡增加班的問題那我們現在公務人員服務法裡面的第12條第3項是這樣子寫的是每天不得超過12個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
892.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
919.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
公務人員服務法是循序部主管的法規您過去也擔任過循序部部長對本法應該相當的熟悉同時您也擔任過人事行政局局長所以我想針對這個部分來跟您做個討論目前因為各個公務機關的業務量其實差異非常非常大有的單位像是衛福部跟勞動部其實他們的業務量非常大加班的時間就很長但是因為人事行政總署要控管大家加班所以就希望大家盡量不要加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
920.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
947.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
結果事情做不完：就發生我剛剛講的加打卡：增加班的狀況像這一張這個是週末的晚上這是衛福部的大樓衛福部的同仁跟我反應說他們內部戲稱這叫燈塔禮拜六晚上他們還是要加班到晚上9點07分燈火通明到了平常日如果我們講每天加班不超過12小時這是平常日昨天的晚上10點 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
948.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
970.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
衛福部還是燈火通明那上個禮拜其實我請人事行政總署要檢討但是他們回答我是說加班都需要控管啊單位要自己去研究啊要檢討相關的人力啊等等等等但我想這些管理的機制我也都支持啦但是最後承擔的其實反而是我們第一線的公務人員自行承擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
971.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
998.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
就像我剛剛講的假打卡增加班或是把工作帶回家所以我今天想要請教您就是說您在擔任人事行政局局長的時候就有推動行政院所屬中央機關學校員工協助方案推動計畫那表示您對公務員是相對支持的那未來您如果擔任考試院院長要怎麼解決公務人員過勞的問題呢我們是不是應該來檢討我們的人事法規或是要跟人事行政總署討論一個比較適宜的控管方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
999.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1010.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我想若原宿法規跟公務員過勞有關係的部分我們會檢討當然我們也會跟原宿總署來看有什麼方法來解決這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1011.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1037.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我希望就是說因為上次我在跟人事總統在提這個意見的時候啊我覺得大家好像脫離了現實啦好多一直跟我回覆的就是說我們應該要怎麼去盤點人力啊等等的所以我希望到時候未來您如果去擔任考試院院長的時候我希望您可以到第一線請聽我們第一線公務員的聲音然後才能夠去務實的面對這些他們遇到的問題我們才能夠針對問題有一個更好的解決方案這部分可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1038.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1048.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我們會傾聽所有公務人員尤其是基層人員的聲音好那在下一個部分就是我們想要來針對就是因為我自己是非常關注育兒的這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1050.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1076.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那我看到您過去在我看到這個2016年的10月6號的第374的人事月刊有提到說您對於弱勢族群和女性的工作權益都非常的關心像是每次的性平會議您都會親自主席這邊我必須給您一個大大的肯定那我也希望說未來您當任考試院長的時候可以持續的保持那今天講到這個性平的議題我就想要來跟您請討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1078.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1103.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這個是我們行政院級所屬申請家庭照顧假的統計表男性跟女性的比例大概我們可以看出來是有個落差但總體來說請假比例只有25%那我不曉得說您對於這樣25%到底是高還是低因為其實這公務員是有有薪照顧假可是有有薪照顧假大概請假比例都是這樣子那不曉得說您覺得這樣您對這樣的數字的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1105.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1125.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
因為要不要請家庭照顧家應該是每個公務同仁他們自己會決定我相信如果有需要的話應該這些同仁應該鼓勵他們來請這樣的一個假以兼顧工作跟家庭的生活我們是從正面的方來看待 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1127.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1140.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我想我們未來如果您擔任考試院院長的時候我們是不是可以來做一個可能調查好了我們來跟世界其他國家有有薪家庭照顧假的公務機關來說我們這樣子的數字到底是高還是低我們才能夠知道我們要努力的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1141.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1165.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們可以做一些國際比較那我們才可以知道說到底我們差距還多遠啦好不好那再來就是說這個是警察的請假的數字那我想你可以看到雖然數字從110年開始有上升但是其實比例喔大概只有剛剛的三分之一是又更低的那我想這個也是一個我們需要去了解的為什麼我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1166.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1167.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那最後一個部分喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1185.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1214.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我想要針對這個兒童權利公約來跟被提名來做一個請求就是說其實我們這個國家有這個在103年11月20號我們其實已經施行了這個兒童權利公約施行法那其實兒童的權利有跟大家息息相關跟所有的兒童息息相關有句話叫做兒少是大家是那我希望未來您可以來推動一個兒權主流化讓各個部會各個部門的公務人員都能夠了解兒權法的核心其中有一個最重要的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1215.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1226.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我們現在的兒少生存發展是四大原則之一可是它占整體國家的比例只有不到1%代表我們公務人員對這個部分的想像非常的薄弱希望您可以未來好謝謝謝謝張委員謝謝貝提 |
| IVOD_ID |
157438 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157438 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-26 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-26T11:06:54+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-26T11:27:28+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |