| IVOD_ID |
157437 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157437 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-26 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-26T10:45:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-26T11:06:39+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:53 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5185545278ec5b4044e5a0cbffd5e72d1bbb2820cd090d8f28bf225f845beb30465aa8e1d032cc685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
徐欣瑩 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:45:46 - 11:06:39 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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謝謝主席本席請考試院長備提名人我們請作備提名人上台委員好 |
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56.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
周備提名人您好剛剛本席也聽了您在答詢前面幾位委員的詢問本席還是要問您因為您過去做過全序部長、考試院副院長現在被提名為考試院院長請問您對考試院在政府體系的功能有沒有很高的期待?有沒有?考試院應該要負起憲法的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
58.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
80.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
所以考試院應該要負起憲法的責任那請問您可以說說看考試院在整個的體系中有哪些職長和功能照憲法增修條文的規定考試院是負責考試就包括公務人員考試還有專技考試那另外負責公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
82.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
93.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
全序保障、撫恤、退休的事項那另外也負責公務人員任免考機疾風升遷報獎的法治事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
94.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
122.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
您非常的熟悉非常好但是我們的我們在立法院行使同意權我們不是在考備法條那沒錯您剛剛講了憲法增修條文第6條那憲法增修條文之前的憲法那它的功能和職長是在第83條你應該很了解這兩者的差異在哪裡只有差異跟養老其他都幾乎都一樣你說差異是什麼養老 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
124.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
146.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
養老養老就現在83條有養老多一個養老那其他任用、全序、考期、疾控、升遷、保障、包講、補序、退休都是在升修條文繼續用那把養老大概任由養老是跟退休比較重疊所以就把養老這個事項拿掉沒有沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
147.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
171.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
最關鍵的是徵修條文我們再來看徵修條文把公務人員的任免、考積、疾奉、升遷、褒獎本來是完全的人事制度權現在變成只剩法治事項這個是完全的矮化萎縮了考試院的職責怎麼會只有養老 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
172.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
193.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
你應該很了解吧我是說跟過去的憲法的規定只差一個事項一樣那至於內容那是因為整個功能和職長的差別那是因為人事行政局在民國56年成立以後那對於人事行政局跟考試院主權有很多不清楚的地方所以後來憲法增修條文才討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
196.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
214.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
其中的任免、考積及奉、證簽你唸的這些它變成法制只有法制事項那實際執行是原事長處所以現在自從增修條文之後考試院就變成行政院的法治局它只有法制事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
216.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
236.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所以過去也很多學者有在批評我們人事行政當時的人事行政局現在的人事行政總署整個架空了考試院所以讓考試院在公務人員人事權的領域大幅的萎縮目前也是如此應該不會因為考試院還是掌管 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
237.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
249.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
全系、保障、輔系、退休全部的權利那至於法制四項當然就只有這五項沒錯但是現在真正人事的整個的任免考機 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
251.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
267.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
升遷、褒獎整個你們沒有完全的權利你只有負責法治事項啊但是因為法治事項它是規範法律所以法律規範以後原始總裁就要照這個法律來做但是這樣的情況跟國父孫中山先生當初 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
268.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
293.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
五權憲法的理念相差天差地別吧距離非常遙遠啊那因為環境的變化對您認同嘛對不對所以那您如果有機會有修憲的機會你會主張憲法原本設計考試權的實質功能和其他四權能夠相互合作相互制衡的運作您認同嗎對因為這涉及修憲你說對所以你認同嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
297.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
323.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我想要尊重大院的提議還有所以你現在你就矮化成為這個不會不會不會矮化所以你說尊重大院就是說你現在是考試院的院長被提名人請問你對考試院本席看了一下你的這個自傳回答就是有這個問題的你的書面回答你的期許不到100字你要身為一個考試院院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
324.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
343.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
被提名人而且未來總統還多次的稱讚您歷練完整那你要執掌整個考試院應該讓整個考試院他是真的可以在五權分立中能夠相互制衡還有互相合作才對對我們是五權分立所以我們真的很期許應該要如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
344.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
362.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那也因為如此所以我們發現您剛剛講的我們人事的認免這一次勞動部的霸凌案我們是不是看到大家都說為什麼可以公務人員可以這樣子做直升機可以做直升機上去然後公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
364.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
384.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
如果剛剛也有很多委員在詢問本席現在就請教你如果現在有公務人員他在工作崗位上徬徨無助他對整個工作有受到霸凌的情況你會如何建議他應該向誰求助 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
385.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
413.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
對 他應該跟他們機關裡面都有人事單位那人事單位也都會有所謂身心協助的方案來處理所以只有這樣嗎整個考試院沒有任何一個單位可以接受他的這個申訴嗎對 如果他對於機關的管理措施若有不符的話可以再申請這一次就是針對機關的管理方式有非常有疑慮啊而且受苦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
414.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
442.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
可以向保訓會再申訴對 您說對了剛剛一直都沒提到叫做公務人員保障季培訓委員會就本席所知您還當過主委 對不對所以您應該很了解可是為什麼這麼多的公務員他們受霸凌、他們受苦、他們不敢或是沒有向保訓會是他們不知道還是不信任呢有有 霸凌的案件還是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
446.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
460.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以您在考試院擔任副院長期間也知道都有霸凌案本席手上也看到在這個考試院的保訓委員在112年就提出霸凌案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
462.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
488.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
從111年開始一直成長到112年有31件所以在行政體系中的霸凌是存在的而且考試院的保訓會就是剛剛說的這個委員會保訓會也是知道的可是為什麼沒有主動的關心跟調查因為負責我們只是負責再申訴那對於再申訴的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
489.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
515.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好所以剛剛討論那麼多本席要就公務人員保障法請秀出來公務人員保障法第77條第一項的規定公務人員對於服務機關所為之管理措施或有關工作條件之處置認為不當致影響其權益者得依本法提起申訴再申訴是沒錯沒錯那 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
518.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
542.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
現在霸凌事件這個全國這樣沸沸揚揚我們的保訓會有沒有在主動調查因為如果他們有提出再申訴的話那當然會請當事人還有機關到會來申訴所以我們保訓會不主動保障公務人員而是要他提出申訴因為目前的那個保訓會 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
543.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
563.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
他負責再申訴的部分是要等有再申訴的案件進來他們才會處理所以等待再等待然後申訴案件進來之後你們就公文來公文去可是我們的很多公務員每天水深火熱度日如年啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
564.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
573.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
可是我們的考試院或是我們的公務機關保訓會我們就只有讓這些申訴案件再做公文履行 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
575.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
598.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
文件都在旅行當中但是當事人在水深火熱當中所以本席想請教考試院院長被提名人您對目前公務人員法定的保障機制的運作滿不滿意應該還要再加強所以保訓會可不可以主動的來調查來約談可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
598.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
616.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
因為這是涉及權責的問題那我們會把法律把它修得比較完整有哪一條法令有規定你們不能主動的調查約談請你告訴本席沒有嘛因為是由各服務機關一般都是由各服務機關來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
618.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
642.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那今天整個考試院你就有一個叫公務人員保障暨培訓委員會那你要保障公務人員剛剛我們念的第77條他就在保障公務人員那我們保訓會所有的委員我們都坐在那邊等待嗎因為未來擔任考試院院長這個部分要不要革新 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
643.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
668.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們會把公務人員保障法第19條把它修得更完整一點讓機關還有公務人員他有所遵循那剛剛說的第77條你要不要主動呢現在全國都知道了你今天是公務人員保障的培訓委員會那我們都不用去主動積極調查跟約談嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
670.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
692.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
對 但是因為這部分再甚是因為是屬於事後的救濟程序那救濟程序通常是要由當事人提出那保訓會才會來處理那至於事前防範這部分那當然有需要再構相關法規或是你們知道你們就可以主動主動的去調查去了解啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
693.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
714.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個部分本席對您未來如果如果您有順利擔任考試院院長我們希望這個部分要革新我會努力那再來就是說公務人員保障法第21條也有所謂的國家賠償和死亡慰問金的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
715.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
735.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那勞動部的這個霸凌事件遺憾已經發生了而且呢總統兩次的道歉行政院長也出來道歉了請問周考試院院長被提名人如果您擔任考試院院長您對本案的受害人家屬會主動提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
739.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
762.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們看一下公務人員保障法第21條第一項第二項公務人員因為機關提供之安全及衛生防護措施有瑕疵致其生命、身體或健康受損時得依國家賠償法請求賠償公務人員執行職務時發生意外致受傷、失能或死亡者應發給慰問金 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
766.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
785.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
請問這個案例您如果擔任考試院院長會不會發給慰問金慰問金的部分是要由他們會向機關來申請那站在考試院的立場是不是可以發給慰問金因為所謂的發生意外 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
786.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
798.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
被霸凌致死也是意外只要非疾病都算意外是不是非疾病這邊的意外應該是非疾病致死都是算是意外 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
804.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
821.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
請您回答可以嗎?可以發給慰問金嗎?要看實際有機關來他申請然後機關會核定因為要看實際情形因為每個個案都不太一樣所以我們也很難去判斷說他到底符合因為慰問金有一個慰問金的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
822.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
823.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
本席提名人本席要提醒您 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
842.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
866.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
考試院院長被提名人整個考試院領導非常多個部還有其中的各個委員會那針對公務人員的這個保障不管是防止他被霸凌或是讓他們在整個的各種升遷任用各方面能夠積極地掌握這個人事權 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
867.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
893.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
本席對您是有期許我們也希望您對自己是要有期許不要讓考試院淪為淪為行政院的法治局那接下來本席也想請教您您過去一直說這個年金改革一定要做但是本席在這裡也要就年金改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
894.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
917.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
要進行大家是認同但是過去的年金改革對過去幾十年為台灣付出的公務人員沒有信賴保障原則他們如果30年前知道他們的這份工作最後會有這種決策他的這個退休金整個會被刪、被改 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
918.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
947.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
他可能大可他在選擇的時候他可能就不一定繼續留下來所以我們看到整個的這個退府基金我們的整個退府基金沒有法制化你未來擔任如果擔任考試院院長是不是讓整個的退府基金可以有法制化所以法制化是他的組成人員有沒有法令規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
950.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
975.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
他的決策機制有沒有法定的責任?沒有他的所有會議有沒有書面紀錄?沒有他的操作結果有沒有績效檢驗?沒有所以這些都是問題我們期待一定要改革可以嗎?這部分包括會議紀錄應該都是有的那所有績效也都是有紀錄的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
976.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
978.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這個有法制嗎?有法令規定嗎?沒有沒有法令規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
985.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1009.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
因為監理委員會、管理局他們照法令都必須要做了而且很多事項也都要在網站上公開我們最近這幾年的退伏基金績效不錯我們看到跟整個的好像股市的趨勢有其相同的趨勢那當初大幅刪減的年金在112年有 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1011.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1025.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
一千三百億元在113年10月也到了一千六百六十四億元那以現在這種情形是不是可以還給被刪減的老軍公教人員一個公道 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1026.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1048.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
因為最近退伍基金的經營績效是因為整個國內國際股市會比較好所以目前是績效比較好但是還不足以是不是可以讓這些過去被政府欺騙的這些老軍公教人員還給他們一個遲來的正義可以嗎對 因為雖然績效比較好但是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1049.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1074.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
水庫的坑洞非常大所以要法治化不要都沒有一個全責過去整個對所以本席希望未來我們考試院可以朝這個方向來進行當然要法治化沒錯接著很快的本席想請您看一下投影片上的幾個圖形如果依公務人員的官等有分檢任、見任和委任三種對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1075.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1104.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那如果以兼任跟委任三種關等的人數那以他們的人數他會形成哪一個哪一個圖比較正確就是以兼任的人數的多寡兼任人數的多寡跟委任人數的多寡合理的應該是哪一個圖形可以來代表因為目前四個圖形都不太活現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1104.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1131.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我不是說現在以正常我們認為檢任是比較高的職等嘛建任是中間嘛委任是比較基層嘛那照理應該是哪一個照道理因為目前是建任照道理是哪一個嘛以正常應該是哪一個正常應該是委任很少建任比較多那委任也比較少檢任很少吧檢任很少對正常應該是第二個吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1132.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1161.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
就是三角形吧因為第二個委任超過建任跟目前的實況是不符合對你就講到好你就講到了實況我們就來看確實現在台灣公務人員的實況請秀出實況現在台灣公務人員的實況是不是比較像這一個對應該是一個三角形變成橢圓形而且橢圓形的這個比例所以這個就是台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1162.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1180.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
整個官場的一個怪現象怎麼會基層的人員少基層的人員少這是無人公司嗎不是因為基層因為委任的部分他基本上是做比較事務性的很多是做事務性工作所以那個值等 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1181.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1208.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
不能太高所以這是一個很不正常的原因沒有一個單位是這樣但是我們台灣您很了解喔台灣漸漸的變成這樣過去應該是三角形吧您不否認吧過去應該一開始應該也是因為建任是高考機構那機關用高考機構的人員來辦事會所以您覺得這樣是不是一個不正常的現象嗎您有沒有什麼改進方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1209.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1224.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
目前應該目前用這種橢圓形的狀況應該還比較適當所以最基層的少中間的比較多對因為基層部分很多做事務性工作可以用A顧人仁或者甚至委外 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1226.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1228.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
本席希望您可以謝謝徐委員 |