| video_url |
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| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:53:32 - 10:14:11 |
| 影片長度 |
1239 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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謝謝副院長 是不是麻煩有請周備提名人我們請備提名人 周弘憲王院長周備提名人好首先有一些基本定位的問題請教你的看法你認為考試院的存在是考試公平以及文官中立的必要條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
42.933 |
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當然如果國家考試由考試院來主辦這部分因為目前已經取得國連同胞比較大的信賴和肯定這個題目其實不困難啦考試院的存在是不是考試公平跟文官中立的必要條件?是不是?是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
68.39 |
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那不一定一定要設在考試院只是說設在考試院讓原名所以就有下一個問題嘛你贊不贊成考試院的職權並入行政院你贊不贊成因為這個涉及修憲這個當然是涉及修憲嘛那你個人贊不贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
87.35 |
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106.393 |
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目前考試院跟行政院在有關人事業務方面依照五權憲法的規定目前運作對不起喔 那個被提名其實我蠻尊敬你的啦那我希望我的問題你就率直的回答你過去的主張是什麼 其實大家心裡都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
107.435 |
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119.572 |
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那今天有機會當這個位置考試院要不要廢除當然是立法院我們必須要按照修憲的程序來進行嘛但我只想知道說就你個人的信念 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
120.509 |
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140.434 |
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對於整個國家制度的運作你的想法有沒有改變因為到時候立法委員我們在啟動或是要推動整個修憲程序的時候還是會請教考試院的意見嘛您有一天如果有幸當了考試院院長你會表達任何看法嗎當然因為要 |
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141.889 |
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考試院要表達任何看法也都必須要徵詢考試委員當然嘛所以我就先請教你如果有機會當考試院院長的時候你贊不贊成考試院併入行政院如果有這樣的擬議大家有共識那當然我們也會尊重所以你個人沒有立場 |
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過去我對這部分也沒有特別去思考那因為現在在...來!被提名的人我提醒你一下其實這件事情你思考過啊2020年的時候你跟現在副院長的被提名人許舒翔事實上你們有發表聯合聲明啊強調幾件事啊第一個有關於文官的中立、考試的公平考試院的存在不是必要條件 |
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188.936 |
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218.357 |
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白紙黑字啊你們那時候的聯合聲明我全部都拜讀過啦那個時候的聯合聲明也很大方的講啊現在社會上面多數的意見多數的黨派的看法就是考試院要必入行政院監察院要必入立法院採取三權分立嘛這是你2020年那個時候的主張啊我不曉得你今天還記不記得但是我只想提醒被提名人啊我只想提醒被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
219.296 |
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對我們國家目前的憲政制度當考試權跟行政權分裂的時候會產生什麼樣子的問題我覺得在考試院的立場上面感受要很深刻我為什麼說感受要很深刻我等一下馬上就會進入今天實質的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
237.503 |
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262.7 |
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因為我不喜歡談抽象的問題抽象的價值您贊成三權分立還是五權分立從你過去個人的言行我相信社會大眾有一個心理的評價在那在這邊我也不是在做政治考核我們要解決問題我先帶您看前院的院長黃榮春他說他有末代考試院長的心理準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
263.661 |
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所以他覺得他的責任更加重大您覺得他在擔任院長您在擔任副院長的期間當中有履行你們應該履行的責任嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
274.731 |
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292.945 |
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對 因為我們都是照憲法的規定來處理當然啦 除了憲法的規定以外憲法把考試院所有的職權在你們的職長之下嘛我的問題重點是你們有沒有把事情做好您覺得在上一任的考試院院長跟副院長的表現您個人評分的話會打幾分 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
296.524 |
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323.224 |
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評論應該要由社會來不好意思自己打分數嘛這個我尊重來我們接下來進入具體的問題嘎爺歐委員請教你啊我們目前有員工職場霸凌防治處理流程啊請問這個流程是誰頒訂的人事行政總署那請問有關於公務員的保障是誰的職長保障事項那當然是考試院也要負一部分的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
324.025 |
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353.084 |
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公務員的保障按照您剛剛所講的在我們的憲法裡面不就是規定在考試院的權責嗎那我現在的問題就來了如果公務員的保障是考試院的權責為什麼這個職場霸凌防治處理流程是由我們的行政院人事總署在定考試院在哪裡針對有關於防治職場霸凌這件事情我們的考試院到目前為止制定了什麼辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
355.732 |
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382.111 |
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我們目前是照公務員保障法第19條我知道公務員保障法第19條的規定我很清楚那個法律規定在那裡但是我現在的問題是請問考試院做了什麼事情我們有公務員安全衛生防護辦法安慰辦法有辦法處理霸凌的事情嗎因為這霸凌事件其實也是安全的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
383.052 |
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395.823 |
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所以我現在請教你安慰辦法有辦法處理霸凌的事情嗎如果有辦法處理霸凌的事情的話那我問題就來啦那人種據制定這個職場霸凌防治處理原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
397.196 |
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我第一個問題是為什麼是人事總處做我第二個問題是考試院在哪裡第三個問題是你剛提到的安慰辦法我現在具體的請教安慰辦法現行的規範有辦法處理職場暴力的事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
413.49 |
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439.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
因為安慰辦法裡面就有關衛生和安全那安全部分當然也包括職場的霸凌的部分所以呢按照目前安慰辦法的規定被霸凌的公務員應該採行什麼措施依照安慰辦法的規定現行的公務員可以做什麼他如果有這方面的問題那當然可以向他們的服務機關來申訴這個規定在安慰辦法裡面嗎你確定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
444.278 |
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466.809 |
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你確定嗎這應該一般就是這樣處理一般就是這樣處理現在有這樣處理嗎現在針對有關於勞動部的案件勞動部在處理這件事情的時候請問是依照人總所公布的這個職場大臨處理程序還是按照你剛剛所講的考試院保訓會所定的安慰辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
468.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
497.117 |
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這部分我不是很清楚他們怎麼...欸你怎麼不會不是很清楚這公務員保障欸規定在公務員保障法裡面欸公務員保障法、權責機關、母法是考試院欸是保訓會欸您作為考試院院長的被提名人這一件事情我可能拜託被提名人啊你們要多去什麼多去仔細的思考考試院要反省的第一件事情是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
498.098 |
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523.992 |
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為什麼這個辦法是人總訂的全部的人都在問啊如果公務員的保障是考試院的執掌怎麼會行政院的人總訂這個辦法第二個安慰辦法現在有辦法處理這個問題嗎來我們再進一步往下看人事總署這個員工職場拜臨防治與處理的原則跟安慰辦法有什麼關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
526.462 |
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532.066 |
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他跟安慰辦法的法律位階關係是什麼您是法律員出身 這個問題應該不困難對 因為安慰那個 呃 聯事總署訂的是行政規則沒錯 對對 他跟安慰辦法的關係是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
549.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
550.133 |
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這兩個法規的關係是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
561.088 |
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589.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這兩個法規的關係是什麼對 因為人事行政總署他們是在第一線處理有關人事業務所以他們對於相關的問題他們常常會定辦他們內部的一個規則你剛只把人事總署為什麼要定這個講了嘛你還是沒有回答我的問題啊他跟安慰辦法的關係是什麼要走哪一套要走安慰辦法還是要走這個員工職場霸凌防治處理程序要走哪一套 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
590.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
614.059 |
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行政院有一套考試院有一套要走哪一套我想只要能符合相關的規定公務員都可以引用來維護他自己你的意思是什麼要走哪一套各個機關自己決定是這樣嗎要走哪一套由各個權益受侵害的公務員來自己想辦法是這樣嗎應該不是這樣吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
616.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
628.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以這部分我們會在我剛剛在口頭報告裡面也強調就是說我們必須要修改工人保障法將有關職場霸凌的部分提高到法律下一個問題違反了人事總署這個員工職場霸凌防治與處理原則各個機關有訂定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
639.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
655.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
行政機關有訂定嗎應該都有照這個規定訂定自己機關裡面你確定都有嗎你不是很瞭解嗎下一個更關鍵的問題違反了又怎麼樣違反了有任何法律效果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
657.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
677.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
有什麼法律效果?委員不問當然各機關如果有違反的話那相關的人員包括人事人員啊或者機關的首長當然可能會受到行政的懲處什麼樣子的行政懲處?這一切勞動部有按照這個處理原則在做嗎?有嗎?有嗎?被提名的你確定嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
685.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
710.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
第二個違反了這個作業要點裡面根本沒有涉法律效果啊它所存在的困境是什麼我跟您報告啊就跟安慰辦法一樣現在的安慰辦法是毫無辦法我為什麼說現在的安慰辦法是毫無辦法第一個解釋上面現行的安慰辦法第三條也好第四條也好有包括霸凌嗎你認為有包括霸凌嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
715.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
733.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
就是有關生命、身體及健康危害的事你認為這個就有包括霸凌了應該霸凌的部分應該沒有關係如果在文藝的射程範圍你認為包括霸凌下一個問題違反的法律效果是什麼現行的安慰辦法你應該很熟啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
734.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
760.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我現在喔上一趴我在問的是行政院人總的員工霸凌職場處理的原則現在這一趴我在問的是考試院保訓會處理的安慰辦法違反了安慰辦法我沒有制定這個計畫啊我就沒有制定這個防護計畫嘛我從頭到尾就沒制定這個防護計畫因為沒有制定防護計畫發生了這樣子的事情請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
762.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
789.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
要負什麼責任?一般機關應該都會照他的建議作為來對不起啊!如果沒有違反了安慰辦法違反了安慰辦法的法律效果是什麼?這個問題沒有這麼複雜吧?對,違反了法律效果就是如果機關、人事人員或博長有這方面的問題的話那當然可能會受到平時考核的懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
790.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
816.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
就平時考核的懲處就只有這樣沒有其他的法律效果有罰則嗎有罰則嗎罰則目前因為保障罰並沒有定罰則所以這部分目前是沒有但是行政懲處對於沒有的這個現況你可以接受嗎行政懲處的部分我們一樣一樣來啦對於沒有罰則的現況你可以接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
817.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
838.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以這部分貴黨團有提出19條之一的修正那我知道這個是台灣民眾黨黨團提的嘛現在我在問的是考試院具體的作為嘛黃榮春上任的時候說他有心理準備是末代考試院院長他的責任非常重大那我現在就要請教你嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
839.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
866.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
當責任非常重大覺得自己有可能是最後一任那當然要加緊做努力做趕快做嘛但問題是我們看到的具體作為不是這樣啊我為什麼說我們看到的具體作為不是這樣我今天提出來請教您的問題都不是新的問題都不是新的問題都是從現在從法律到安慰辦法存在明顯的缺陷 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
867.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
893.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
但是我看不到考試院有具體推動修法的任何行動我再說一次我沒有看到考試院有具體推動修法的任何行動怎麼會是其他的在野黨黨團提呢考試院具體的作為在哪裡剛剛你說了你支持在公衛委員保障法徵定反霸凌條款對不對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
894.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
921.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
你為什麼支持因為現行的公務人員保障法19條沒有辦法滿足規範的目的嘛 對不對因為19條目前是比較一般的規範沒有針對職場霸凌特別去訂定不是啊 如果按照你剛剛的那個解釋文藝的設成範圍包括在裡面為什麼有必要要增訂反霸凌條款公務人員保障法第19條最大的問題在哪裡 您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
922.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
946.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
因為他只是一般的規定那對於特定的就是沒有設罰則嘛考試院的保訓會花了納稅人的錢請台大的教授做了研究報告過去這十年我為什麼講過去這十年安慰辦法有多久沒有修了上一次修訂安慰辦法是什麼時候你知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
950.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
972.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
2014年修的2014年到現在2024年10年喔10年喔有關於公務人員保障的安慰辦法10年沒有修啊我2018年的時候我第一次在立法院我要求要修安慰辦法任市長同意了考試院也同意了 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
973.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
991.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我2024年我再回來立法院我再看一次安慰辦法一條都沒有修一條都沒有更正您作為考試院院長的被提名人您作為考試院的副院長前任的副院長您有沒有什麼話想要對公務人員說 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
992.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1018.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
有沒有任何的藉口任何的理由安慰辦法可以十年不修導致現在保障規範的密度不足導致現在沒有任何法律的效果被提名人你有沒有什麼話想要對全體的公務員說目前他們是有提出修正草案出來將這個整個安慰辦法把它訂得剛剛王委員講的密度比較強 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1020.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1045.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
現在喔保訓會十年了以後我剛上一個問題啦是十年沒有休啊你有沒有什麼話要對公務人員說對我們當然要對這部分負起責任那要負起什麼責任要不要檢討當然我們會檢討各方面各方的主教意見我們都必須要第一個啦其實周老師我給你誠懇的建議啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1046.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1067.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
作為考試院院長的被提名人您可以展現一個態度安慰辦法十年沒有修我們覺得很遺憾我們做得不夠給公務人員的保障不夠我們深切的反省檢討我保證接下來在我任內一定會把這些問題解決這種基本態度您可不可以展現 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1071.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1093.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我剛講的內容你同不同意我同意好來既然同意我們就往下看公務人員安慰辦法10年沒有修10年沒有修過去保訓會是一再承諾一再跳票院長被提名的您看一下我把每一次保訓會的承諾按照時間的序列 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1095.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1124.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
從2014年最後一次修正發生進棚大火我第一任當立法委員在立法院質詢承諾說要修到現在2024年到2024年我第一會期繼續追蹤這件事情我們的保訓會終於在8月提出了修正版本時間的關係我只問您一件事你對於這個2024年8月12號考試院所提出來的安慰辦法修正你看過沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1125.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1141.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
對 看過你滿意嗎對 當然你滿意嗎還是有很多要在在遵守的地方如果有很多要在遵守的地方要不要撤回去把它補強再來修是 我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1144.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1172.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
如果我們能上任的話當然會希望保訓會能夠聽取社會各界的聲音我不知道保訓會出了什麼事情我也不知道考試院出了什麼事情這麼重要的事情喔被拖了十年原地踏步毫無修正拖了十年以後到今年8月所提出來的辦法依舊不及格我為什麼說依舊不及格 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1173.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1184.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
違反沒有基本的法則所以我剛剛才整理出來包括你們當初委託徐婉妮教授所做的研究報告沒有法則沒有用 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1185.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1207.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
沒有辦法連結到一定明確的法律效果包括在2019年的時候到立法院來報告的時候也承認這是問題但我無法理解的是到2024年出來的結果一樣沒有罰則如果您上任考試院院長的話你要不要跟全體公務員承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1208.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1230.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
對於安慰辦法對於公務人員保障法所提供給全體公務人員的保障徹底的檢討 讚不讚成讚成需要多久 最後一個問題不要再拖十年啦拖到您下台了以後變成跟上一個黃榮春一樣啊責任重大 但什麼都沒做需要多久一年夠不夠好 謝謝黃委員 |
| IVOD_ID |
157435 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157435 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-26 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-26T09:53:32+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-26T10:14:11+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |