| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5185545278ec5b40315170575097ff531bbb2820cd090d8fe73f0879d42fc77ee6c27912765eb29c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
葉元之 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:32:36 - 09:53:20 |
| 影片長度 |
1244 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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我們請院長候選人謝謝我們請這周備提名人好 葉委員早周先生你也早我想請教一下你對於國民黨提出來的年改的法案瞭解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
34.591 |
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是大致了解大致了解請問一下有要恢復18%嗎18%應該是你要想喔你當你要做一個被提名人你現在你對於現在我們提出來的這個法案完全沒有了解就是有沒有要恢復18%以現在的版本有沒有要恢復18%就首頭替代率會停在有沒有要恢復18% |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
65.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
85.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
沒有嘛我跟你講沒有好不好沒有你現在知道沒有在前幾個月那時候國民黨在提這個年金改革的這個法案的時候很多民進黨的人就一直說國民黨的年改就是要恢復18%沒有沒有你應該沒有印象看到這個東西嘛沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
86.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
101.554 |
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照條文看起來是沒有沒有嘛對啦那現在為什麼要這個年改要再修正呢我想先跟你請教一下當時好像在年改的過程當中你也有扮演很關鍵角色嘛你們當時為什麼要年改是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
103.666 |
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119.107 |
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主要原因因為總統府組成國家年金改革委員會那其中全系部是機關的代表對對對我知道我知道我當然知道是總統府組成的啦所以我只是問說當時你們的立場是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
121.413 |
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141.952 |
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當時因為我們是參與年金改革委員會那你因為考試院考試院算是公務人員的任用保障機關那你也在考試院任職過嘛理論上你應該很了解公務人員的心態跟想法那你知道他們反年改的原因是什麼其實不完全是因為錢除了錢之外還有什麼原因你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
145.475 |
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174.733 |
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你曾經做過考試院一定跟很多公務人員溝通過嘛那一般的公務人員他們反對年改最主要的原因是什麼除了錢之外他們是認為法律不應該溯及計畫還有勒那應該維護信賴保護維護信賴保護原則嘛那你認同嗎你認同法律應該維護信賴保障原則嗎原則上當然信賴保護原則應該普遍應該要適用但是因為在特殊的情況下那有其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
176.087 |
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194.472 |
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更大的法益的情形更大的法益那接下來就要我等一下再跟你討論一下有沒有更大的法益或這個法益有沒有其他方式可以解決但我現在就跟你討論信賴保護原則今天那麼多的公務人員他們一開始為什麼會願意為國家效力很多過去公務人員都是非常優秀的 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
194.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
221.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
因為他們寧可他們現在可能選擇放棄企業高薪到公家機關來上班他可能在企業可以賺更多那為什麼可以來國家效力第一個想為國家做事嘛第二個也是國家給他一個承諾告訴他說你退休之後你這個保障可以穩定對吧這是當初國家跟他講的嘛所以他可能放棄企業高薪來國家上班啊沒錯吧是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
223.066 |
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242.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
沒有我問你問題你就回答就好對是不是嘛是當然是嘛對嘛好啊那現在我們的政府可以說我為了更大的法益所以不好意思當初國家給你的承諾我都不要做到因為我有更大的法益所以你就彼此摸一摸啦而且這個法益還是溯及既往可以這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
243.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
262.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
但是這部分信賴保護還有受理基本部分因為大法官已經作出那個決議那我們當然要尊重我現在是問您的態度嘛因為接下來按照你給我們黨團的回函你的意思是說年金有可能還會繼續用完嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
263.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
290.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以我現在在問你的態度嘛你到時候會不會又忽然間說我又要年改了因為我為了更大的法益所以我要年改我又要去砍大家的退休金我現在跟我等一下問的問題都有關係嘛所以先不用遮擋嘛問你問你都是有原因的第二個齁那個周先生你覺得年金改革的錢可以用喊價的嗎可以嗎當時的年金改革的過程有沒有用喊價的有沒有因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
292.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
308.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
到底要怎麼改那當然是要由各方大家是但是當時的民進黨民進黨黨團的幹部段宜康他那時候怎麼罵公務人員的你還記得嗎他說公務人員你們吵得越兇我砍得越兇你記得這句話嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
309.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
335.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
你記得嗎所以現在的年金改革被砍成這樣是因為那個時候購物人員喊很兇的原因所以年金改革是用喊價的是這樣子的原因情緒花的亂砍當時的執政黨就是這樣子搞的所以如果說年金改革有過程當中這樣的不正當、不正義搞民粹那你覺得年金改革不需要做適當修正嗎你覺得你的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
339.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
353.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
剛有提到目前是沒有守衛在年金改革的綜合規劃現在我們國民黨黨團有提案嘛我們有一個版本等一下我會跟你討論嘛我只是跟你講說那個時候年金改革的過程就是很粗暴嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
355.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
376.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
就是用喊的嘛就是不把公務人員不把他們對於國家的奉獻當一回事嘛對他們不尊重嘛所以說他們為他們自己的權益出來捍衛覺得國家怎麼可以違反心理保護原則怎麼可以這樣亂砍結果民進黨立委是說你們喊得越大聲我砍越多是這樣子粗暴的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
377.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
396.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以本來年金改革就有檢討的必要嘛那我現在先問你一個比較直接的問題啦因為剛剛我有講您說年金改革即便是已經砍了那麼多退休人員退休金那錢還是有用完的可能性所以你講這句話的意思是不是之後有可能還要繼續砍人家退休金有可能嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
398.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
425.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以只要財務不健全情況之下你還是會考慮砍公務人員退休金是這個意思嗎?我有理解錯誤嗎?目前沒有這方面的規劃所以您講的話就證明了財務用完跟砍退休金兩者沒有必然的關係嘛那我想問你接下來如果退休金用完的話考試院會建議用什麼方式讓這個基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
426.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
447.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
保持水位你們的建議方式是什麼當然我們是希望能夠提高績效那另外就是政府會陸續撥補照新的退伍法的92條規定這個水庫的大缺口政府會分年來撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
448.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
475.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以這樣會屬基金的財務會比較健全好謝謝你喔你告訴我們一個大實話就是當時我們的基金財務不健全跟公務人員你的多跟少沒有直接很必然關係啦主要就是基金的績效不好嘛有很多退休的公務人員跟我講啊他說如果當時的政府那個基金的績效跟國際一樣水準的話我們的基金水位可以兩倍啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
476.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
500.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以你自己的經營的績效不好結果你把答應給別人的砍掉這個手段有正當嗎所以我剛剛問那個周先生、周提名人的講法就是說你講說今天政府應該要保障信賴保護原則應該要給人家他們應該的東西可是為了更高的法益所以我必須要砍但問題是那個更高的法益它的根屬性是真的是因為這個關係嗎還是因為基金的經營成效不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
504.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
528.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以政府不是去砍人家的退休金就像你講的現在有可能基金的水位下降但是我們要透過績效的改善或者政府撥補的方式來解決所以我覺得你們過去砍年金真的是很粗暴再來我們現在每一年還是每一年有給退休的這些公教人員我們有給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
529.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
553.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
有漲嘛對不對 按照物價所得CTI有漲對不對照物價指數那111年調漲2%那最近調漲4%110年2% 最近4%嘛對不對 按照物價指數嘛對 參考物價指數問題是我們現在的年改啊一年要減他們所得替代率1.5%對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
556.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
579.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
一年現在是降1.5條漲的話要看物價指數所以實際上你現在給他漲的部分大概每一年扣1.5其實就抵銷了他們並沒有因為物價指數上漲而領到比較多因為彼此抵銷了 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
582.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
610.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這是兩件事我知道是兩件事啦但是對他們領到的每個月匯到銀行戶頭是同一件事嘛所以就抵銷了嘛所以實際上他們領的是越來越少啦而且還有物價通膨的關係嘛所以我就不意思調降到118年就不會再調降所以118年以後如果照物價指數調整的部分就沒有剛業委說 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
612.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
619.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
主委的會有抵消的問題那請問一下你會支持你覺得國民黨提的版本你會支持嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
621.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
649.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這部分涉及整個制度的變革,我想應該要多聽社會各界的...是啊,你要表達你的立場嘛因為現在您在這邊接受我們的質詢所以你要表達立場,如果對的事情就要堅持啊尤其是考試院是掌管就是公務員權益的那退休公務員被這樣欺負,我剛剛跟你溝通過程當中我認為說其實你骨子裡面,我解讀啦可能也不是很認同當時這麼粗暴的年金改革的過程嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
650.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
671.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
現在有一個補救的方法他也不是說第一個也沒有要恢復18%第二個也沒有要我們當然是希望能夠信賴保護原則的基礎底下應該是當初承諾人家什麼就要給人家什麼現在也沒有要這樣了現在只是說退而求其次先止血因為現在公務人員所得替代率每年要減1.5%嘛我們現在說先凍結先做一個整體的檢討嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
676.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
702.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
先凍結整體的想法就不要每年扣1.5先檢討看看從過去到現在到未來我們政府到底要怎麼做一方面可以維持心態保障原則另外一方面公衛員可以得到保障然後國家法益也可以保障就是您支不支持可以先凍結然後做一個整體的檢討方案再來考慮未來的年金要怎麼繼續改革怎麼繼續您支持嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
703.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
725.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
因為首都替代率如果沒有繼續調降的話就會產生一數款會減少因為年金改革是將所有...你說怎麼會減少一數款也就是說年金改革節省的經費照法律規定都全部要撥到這個水庫裡面那如果你一數款也就是說節省的費用越多那當然撥到這個水庫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
729.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
752.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
當然你剛剛講了我們可以透過基金的經營成效來改善你現在你心裡想著說反正我只要砍公務人員就有錢進來了我就不會思考說我怎麼找更好的團隊來經營這個基金如果說今天你沒有辦法透過砍公務人員你就可以直接找一個好的團隊讓基金的水位提高甚至你們現在只有2%未來如果4%、8%、10% |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
755.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
774.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那搞不好根本就不用砍公務人員的退休金啊凍結也沒關係啊補給他也沒關係啊現在是心態問題嘛你如果想著說唯一的挹注基金的水位的方式只有砍公務人員退休金的話那當然你就想的只有這個方法啊你往哪個方向想你就會做到什麼樣的方向嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
775.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
784.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
因為今天我時間也有限你有沒有支持我們現在只是問立場跟態度你有沒有支持說可以凍結先凍結 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
787.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
808.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我想因為這剛講涉及到藝術款的減少那會對整個基金的財務產生很大的影響對警消警消現在大家認為警消的工作非常的辛苦應該要比照軍人嘛因為他們的工作跟一般人是不太一樣有時候要長時間的待命執勤而且工作也非常有風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
809.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
838.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那平常他們雖然不是說真的到戰場上面去打仗可是跟很多壞人在這個對決的過程當中也其實生命也遭到了很大的威脅那我們現在希望說他可以訂定特別的所得替代率上限90%那這個部分這個北庭銀門你這邊支持嗎對那照顧警消同仁那都是我們公部門必須要做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
839.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
866.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
但是因為如果警消提高首度替代率到90%的話那就會產生跟一般公務人員的差異大家繳費的費率是一樣但是領的替代率不一樣那就會產生不公平那另外因為警消人員他們在平時的待遇各方面其實已經比公務人員稍微優厚一點那另外他們自願退休以及借領退休的年齡也都降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
867.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
890.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
對他們來講也是沒關係所以你不支持你不支持那個你剛剛提到就是說繳的錢什麼大家要一樣但是為什麼領的不一樣其實之前的公務人員很多要繳多少錢也是政府跟他說要繳多少錢他們也沒有什麼智慧的餘地但是他繳了他按照政府講的繳了那個錢之後忽然間就跟你講說不好意思我答應要給你的退休金我不給你了之前公務人員就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
891.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
911.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以他繳的錢真的可以得到什麼保障嗎也未必啦看政府對他們的態度是怎樣第三個我跟請教一下考試院應該要保障公務人員嘛特別是公務人員福利甚至於他在這個職場上面有沒有得到公平正義的對待我覺得這也是考試院應該要負責的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
912.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
930.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那前陣子出現勞動部的霸凌事件導致一個不幸的無性工程師的輕生那整個過程當中凸顯著官僚系統官官相護這個您應該知道吧對我有看媒體報告請教一下考試院在這樣的過程當中可以扮演怎樣的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
932.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
955.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
因為這部分是涉及到公務員執行職務的安全問題那這部分我剛剛在口頭報告裡面有說這是考試院負責的保障事項那我們希望將現在這些相關的措施現在都是屬於內部的行政規則我們希望把它提高到法律的位階這樣對公務員人是比較有保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
956.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
984.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
意思是說立法以後如果出現這個狀況的話可以怎樣就照法律來處理現在就是照人事行政總署可不可以具體講一下如果立法的方向是什麼立法方向我們是認為應該將職場霸凌這些相關事項規定在公務員的保障法那第19條它現在目前是主規定公務員執行職務安全應與保障那機關應提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
986.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1005.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
安全衛生的防護辦法那這樣一個宣示性的條文我們覺得不夠那應該將這個條文擴充那把有關職場霸凌的相關事項把它規範進去那各機關以及公務人員就比較有可能來遵循如果沒有遵循會怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1006.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1029.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
沒有遵循的話會怎麼樣?沒有遵循的話那當然會產生有行政責任等等行政責任好我們來看一下現在公務人員霸凌的程序是這樣喔如果以那個勞動部的例子來講他如果說在職場上接受霸凌的話他一開始應該是跟原機關申訴嘛對不對那什麼時候會到考試院呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1030.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1045.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
應該是到最後救濟程序的時候才會到考試院他如果不服氣不服氣才能夠到那邊嗎換言之喔如果我說這個案子一直在勞動部裡面一直出不去的話一直沒有結論的話他根本就沒有到考試院的可能性嘛對吧對不對在現行的狀況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1050.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1080.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
就比如說這一次勞動部的案子啊因為一直吃案啊表面上有調查啊但調查不了了之啊一直沒有做出一個處分出來啊所以沒有處分就沒有可能到考試院嘛 對吧對 應該如果他們認為機關的那現在問題就來了按照現在勞動部這個案例啊考試院是不會知道這個事情為什麼 因為他沒有一個處分出來嘛整個案子被吃掉了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1081.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1106.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以我這邊建議啦我不知道說那個被提名人這邊能不能夠你的態度是什麼我覺得考試院應該主動出席啦考試院現在就是被認為說跟人事行政總署疊窗架屋啊兩個都做的事情是一模一樣很多人都在講說包括人事行政總署內部的人就說他們已經決定了一個事情然後還要去會嫌考試院同一個文同樣一件事兩邊會來會去但是同樣的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1109.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1128.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
跌床駕屋完全說沒有彰顯自己的功能而且現在都是執政黨嘛人事行政總署、行政院長是民進黨的考試...欸您現在還有民進黨籍嗎?欸...已經註銷了註銷了齁?但是您也是民進黨提名的嘛反正你們都是一樣的嘛考試院現在跟行政機關感覺也都很類似啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1129.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1144.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
接通駕屋但是即便在這種情況之下我覺得你也可以做一件事情你可以扮演行政機關的外部的調查單位嘛現在公務人員如果有比如說是身心障礙缺的話你們是不是會有定期的訪視計畫對不對有嗎有定期的訪視計畫嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1150.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1173.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
有嗎應該是人事總處他們在負責好像考試院也有我了解考試院也有考試院也會去訪視一下看看他在公共機關的適應狀況那是各機關都要做的對嘛那所以其實我覺得考試院如果你站在這種角度的話你不應該是被動的等他處分出來勝訴你平常你就可以去各機關看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1174.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1198.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那個這邊有沒有霸凌行為啊 跟大家聊一聊啊 主動出擊嘛現在行政機關霸凌狀況非常嚴重除了勞動部之外 海科館、外交部、機關署各機關都有 地方政府也有 考試院不覺得應該要出去看一看嗎還是說躲在院裡面 等人家來申訴 最好不要申訴你不要來申訴我就沒事做 我就不用做事你贊不贊同我的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1199.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1228.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
考試院應該保訓會應該要更關心公務人員的在職場的那請問一下因為考試院被大家認為說在這一塊做得不夠所以公務人員想要組公會希望能夠有協調權希望有自己主張救濟權您支持嗎公務人員組公會他們也不會主張罷工權那您支持嗎對組公會部分因為牽涉的問題比較大因為公務人員在執行公權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1240.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1240.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
好,謝謝葉委員 |
| IVOD_ID |
157434 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157434 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-26 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-26T09:32:36+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-26T09:53:20+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |