| IVOD_ID |
157433 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157433 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-26 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-26T09:11:51+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-26T09:32:25+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:34 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5185545278ec5b40d6e255e1238338811bbb2820cd090d8fe73f0879d42fc77e7a999415d811f7405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
沈伯洋 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:11:51 - 09:32:25 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
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請周背題名人背題名人好 孫仁好背題名人周先生你好那這個我今天因為我們這個有20分鐘所以時間也算是比較充裕一點跟平常的總諮詢比起來那我今天最主要要問的就是我在上面這邊所呈現的就是我想要問的是跟憲法忠誠義務跟一些未來的期許那考用合一其實也只是其中一小部分而已 |
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這一次就是我們可以看到在這一個被提名的那一次的記者會剛剛這一個被提名人也有提到這專業擔任副院長近四年那裡面有推動其實非常重要的這一個相關的年金改革然後這一個全序部部長 |
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80.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
保訓會的主委還有兼任退府基金會管理委員會等等相關的業務那剛剛也有提到本身也有律師執照也已經執業滿長的一段時間那所以呢我認為啦針對跟考試院相關的業務聽起來應該是非常的熟悉才對那但是呢我們現在面臨的一個問題是這樣子我那天在這一個公聽會的時候其實也有特別提到這一點因為當天有很多的專家學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
82.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
104.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
針對這一次被提名人然後寫了一些意見那這裡面有一些意見都是在講一些專業的部分那我個人並不是那麼的認同其實理由很簡單因為相對於考試委員我們立法院最重要的就是立法委員那立法委員照理說他的專業如果按照字面的意義那應該就是立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
105.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
114.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那如果立法委員的專業是立法那是不是表示每一個立法委員都應該要法律系畢業那如果是這個樣子的話那很多人不能當立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
115.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
135.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那因此我認為這一些尤其有一些專家學者的意見把這個專業一直放在這個所謂的這個字面的意義我個人認為是不太足夠的我甚至認為雖然我們很多的立法委員本身不是念法律的但他們在做選區服務的時候他們有很深厚的這些實務的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
136.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
155.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
所以他在第一線的時候他反而都知道說人民需要什麼所以他去反應民意然後因此呢再藉由他好的法律幕僚然後去做好的立法這可能才是立法委員的工作所以反過來講我對於考試委員還有院長的期許也會稍稍不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
156.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
169.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我個人認為專業當然是加分就是在這個考試院裡面有服務過在保訓、在權序等等之類的這個的確是至關重要但是考試院本身也要有政治相關的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
171.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
194.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那這個政治的專業呢可能也是取決於像被提名人本身的法學的知識因為你這樣才可能會知道說到底在憲法上的義務的界限在哪裡所以呢我一開始呢想要針對這一個憲法忠誠義務的事情稍微做一下詢問那第一個呢就是這一個我們這一次的這個憲判制第9號裡面就有提到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
195.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
209.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我們憲法機關基於這個忠誠義務不得就倒數第二行這裡不得消極不行使憲法上的提名跟同意權那我們來看一下我們整個的時間軸我們在2024年的5月31號的時候做了這個提名 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
213.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
235.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
2024年6月7號的時候就排入了院會7月5號、7月8號、7月9號、8月14其實我們都有要求必須要審這個考試院這個委員的同意案然後一直到這個8月31就卸任了嘛所以就變成有一個空窗空窗在那裡那等一下呢你會遇到其他的這些委員他們一定會問一定會說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
236.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
263.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個就是因為這個要釋憲嗎所以釋憲這個還沒有過所以沒有辦法排啊什麼等等之類的為什麼民進黨不排其實民進黨在很早的時候就已經要求要排審是在根本會期這個屆期還沒有制的時候呢就已經決定要趕快來排但是呢因為其他兩黨不願意所以到最後就沒有排成然後變成到最後呢這一次立法院的職權刑事法釋憲導致這樣的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
265.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
273.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那這個8月31因為卸任之後形成了一個空窗導致在8月30的時候這個就是民眾黨那時候講的這個我就跳過因為這個你待會一定會遇到他們就講說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
280.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
300.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那個不應該開臨時會啊怎麼可以在臨時會再來審啊但是那個都是因為在第一會期的時候他們拒絕了這樣的一個同意權的行使導致我們必須在協商的時候呢說我們要在臨時會來做這件事最後要求了之後呢他又不在臨時會處理這件事情最後我們就沒有辦法去討論這個同意權 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
302.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
327.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那這整個脈絡這個被提名如果清楚的話這件事情你應該很清楚就是在8月30號在屆期將至的前一天那時候呢就自己頒布了一個規定說那之後呢在緊急狀況之下可以有考選部、權序部、保訓會他們緊急應...有點像是緊急應變小組啦針對一些緊急的事項呢可以自行做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
327.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
356.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那這樣的一個決定我相信那時候當時的副院長應該也對這個決定非常的了解那我想問的就是說因為在立法院這邊沒有辦法去進行他的憲法的忠誠義務之下導致考試院產生了選缺但是考試院這樣的一個決定是否也可能會有侵害這個憲政相關的這一個疑慮還是說這些事情本來就應該由考試院來決定立法權其實無權干涉呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
359.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
379.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
有關考試院因為人事案不順利那院裡面是希望如果有緊急必要的事項的話還是必須要由院會來通過因為很多法律的規定那些事項都必須經過院會討論決議那因為這考選部長、全席部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
383.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
410.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
還有保訓會主委他們過去也都是出席院會的成員從民國49年19年之前他們是列席19年之後修改考試院組織法把他們改成出席所以他們過去也大概60幾年來也都是在參與考試院的重要政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
411.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
438.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
只是他們三個部會首長是所有考試委員還有院長、副院長其中的一部分而已那現在因為情非得已所以繼續由他們來執行他們出席院會所應付的義務和權益我相信這是一個很不得已的措施那因為過去這三位首長也都是院會成員所以應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
440.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
452.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
不會產生合法性的問題只是說理論上應該要院長、副院長、七位考試委員還有三位部位首長大家組成首二位 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
453.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
458.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
法制上應該是沒問題但是在合理性正當性來講稍微欠缺所以在過渡時期主要用這樣一個變通方式但 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
474.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
501.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
他們的這些決定到考試院第十四屆院長、副院長、考試委員上任以後的政治宴會他們必須這些議案通過議案都必須經過十四屆的追認才會達成最後的效果謝謝貝提名人的答案我認為這個答案非常的合宜第一個就是我們剛剛這個有提到其實在修法之後其實他們都是要出席的他們不是列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
501.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
530.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以當然他們在決定的時候一直以來他們都是有參與的但是因為這一次立法院沒有去行使同意權的一個狀況之下因為他們本來就是參與的其中一員所以讓他們繼續可以來做相關的決定但是在合理性上面的確因為畢竟這是一個緊急的過渡狀況它不應該是常態那但是這邊就衍生了一個問題就是照理說我們是尊重立法院院會最後的同意最後的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
531.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
546.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
但如果他們用修法的方式要來強迫考試院的組織產生變革呢我舉這樣的例子是因為這已經發生了大概兩次了第一次當然就是在5月的時候這個非常重要的這個國會擴權、國會濫權的法案這個法案其實實質在侵害行政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
551.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
571.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
第二次就是最近即將要產生爭議的憲法訴訟法他們打算直接去動這個大法官的原額用現有總額直接來取代現在的規定意思就變成說在很多的這個大法官會議裡面他必須要是十個人出席才有辦法來做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
571.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
600.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以在這樣的狀況之下立法院已經用他們院會的權力實質的擴張到其他院的權力導致其他院的權力可能會沒辦法行使剛剛提到一個非常重要的點就是不管是考選部、全序等等之類的他們因為在改成初期之後他們實質的都已經在參與考試院、考試委員、院長、副院長相關的會議還有相關的決定這個是現在正在進行式但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
601.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
623.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
像這一個這個是前陣子這一個被我認為就是專門在提違憲法案的幾位委員他們提了這一個法案他們裡面的提了幾個重點第一個重點呢就是在前沿的這一個部分我覺得上面可能不清楚可能看下面那個這個配題裡面你前面的那個電腦螢幕可能會比較清楚它在左邊這邊的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
625.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
650.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第三行開始他說考試委員共同行使考選部全訓部保訓會作為考試院的下級機關其主管應列席院會配合協助考試委員行使職權然後考試院會的會議規則再送立法院備查也就是說剛剛本來我們說我們讓這些人出席參與會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
652.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
677.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
現在他又要把他降級了他要把他又變成以前舊法的規定就是所謂的列席規定並且說考試院以後的會議規則考試院訂了以後由立法院來被查這個對我來講會有一定的政治風險這也是為什麼我剛剛在一開始的時候提到雖然我相信被提名人在考試院相關的專業還有法律的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
678.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
707.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
但接下來這幾年我們不斷的會遇到的可能最重要的已經不是考試本身的業務而是憲政的危機院跟院之間的本來應該要互相尊重的這個憲政機制而這個憲政機制很有可能現在會越來越來越模糊然後變得不復存在所以這時候呢這位院長作為副院長在對外的時候呢反而必須要處理這種非常棘手的政治問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
708.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
730.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以這邊我認為這個問題其實不好解這個已經復違了他已經到委員會已經說要來審這個法案只是現在還沒有排審而已那這個如果未來它發生了那考試院會用什麼樣的態度來面對這樣的一個修法當然大院對考試院組織法任何的修正我們都會尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
731.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
760.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
但是大家也要考慮到為什麼考選部長、全席部長和保新會主委會出席宴會是因為考試院負責重大政策沒有錯政策方向沒錯但是實際上的一些政策的細節還有執行都是部會在做所以能夠由三個部會首長來出席宴會表示意見這也是會使所謂的議案的決定會比較周延 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
761.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
782.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那當然考試院院會是以考試院為主題沒錯但也不是說考試委員以外的人都不能參與院會因為照憲法的規定考試院院長和副院長也不是考試委員這跟監察院、大法官、司法院是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
785.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
813.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
實際上如果有考試院不具考試委員．的身份的院長、副院長．還有三個部會首長來參加的話．加起來也是五個人．那現在主書法規定．考試委員是七到九人．所以有七人．至少有七人到九人．都會超過首位沒有具有考試委員．身份的五個人．所以基本上這樣一個結果． |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
815.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
835.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們認為跟憲法也不是有太多的違背因為憲法對考試院、院會的組成並沒有規定不像行政院,行政院院會成員在憲法裡面是有規定的所以當然這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
836.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
856.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我們尊重大院的決定但是也希望大院能夠注意到剛我講的這些問題謝謝因為這個之後如果副委員會假設那時候考試委員已經誕生了我們當然是希望能夠順利的進行那這個案子如果副委的時候到之後可能就會請考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
857.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
883.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
列席來這邊說明以及這個法案可能會有的疑問那希望呢這一個備評裡面那時候呢能夠針對這個相關的就像剛剛的這個答案一樣讓這邊的立法委員知道那不然的話呢不斷的藉由這樣的一個修法去破壞這個憲政的邊界我相信這個並不是國家之福啦那現在呢不只只有這一個我相信監察院相關的法案我們這邊也會有立委要提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
883.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
910.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
到最後都會是類似像這樣的規定他有可能會去動那個員額他可能去動出席的人數他可能去決定說到底誰能從來開會誰才不能夠來開會這個時候如果考試院的一些核心業務被侵蝕的時候在政治上我認為考試院院長必須要有一個非常強烈的態度讓他們知道我們手的這個憤記在哪裡這是我這一次非常特別想要提醒的一件事謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
912.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
940.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那接下來這個呢這邊呢其實我們也有做一些整理但是呢這就是待會兒你可能也會遇到就是呢這一次的憲判制其實有提到在人事同意權這件事情上面因為有一些呢他會有個別的黨團有立法院這邊不同的黨團去寄出一些書面的問卷那希望被聽名人能夠回覆但是呢按照大法官解釋我們可以看到他說呢立法院各黨團或最後一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
941.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
967.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
或個別立法委員尚不得進行向被提名人提出書面問題直接要求答覆與此前提之下本項規定實不勝抵觸憲法的問題那我認為因為我們立法院的主體其實是院會是整體大家113位委員那針對這個整個113位我們共同做決定我們雖然個別在詢問但到最後是用表決的方式來行使我們的同意權 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
969.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
984.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
黨團並不是立法院直接的對外的象徵立法院本身才是象徵所以當黨團個別來做這樣的一個要求的時候當然我們在個別道德義務上面有些人可能會覺得說反正他來問我就來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
984.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
999.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
但我覺得在憲政分際上面其實我們還是可以去堅守我們就是由立法院整體透過現在的這樣的一個議事規則來做詢問並且答覆20分鐘的時間其實說真的都算完整可以回答非常多的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1000.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1021.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那這個個別問卷的行使呢貝提名人自己雖然有他自我的一個決定但也希望能夠互相提醒一下至少以現在的憲判制來說他並不是一個直接必須當然要去這個回答的一個義務那最後還有一點點時間我是想要問就是因為在這一個書面報告裡面你有提到幾個你未來的這個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1022.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1043.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
裡面包含數位的轉型、電腦化的測驗、多元取材等等之類的有兩個小地方我想問我先問最後一個就是文官培訓因為我知道文官學院其實負有一定的角色我以前也想去文官學院幫忙上課但我們現在人事總署他們自己也有公務員的培訓中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1046.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1066.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
這兩個當然我們在形式上會做一些切割哪一些在文官學院哪一些在這個工人員訓練中心但問題就出在說這樣的一個方式它只是形式上我們做分類但如果對公務員本身來講如果他想要做進修這兩個單位到底彼此之間應該要怎麼分工合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1066.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1081.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
才會對我們的這一種對於後來的這些訓練未來他們的方向會是最好的不知道院長有什麼樣的這個被提名人有什麼樣的想法因為照訓練進修法的規定考試院就保訓會還有國家公關實驗室負責考試錄取人員訓練升官等訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1088.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1103.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
行政中立訓練以及高階公務人員發展性的訓練那一般的在職訓練是由人事總署底下的學院來負責所以分工是很清楚一個是在職的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1106.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1131.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
一個是有關考試錄取還有要升官等因為這考試錄取和升官等這些都是考試院的職責那行政中立由考試院來做會比較好因為行政中立如果由行政院做的話可能人家會質疑比較不會客觀所以由考試院來做比較好那另外就是高階公務人員發展性的訓練那這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1133.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1154.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
都是考試院的主席所以這樣分一般公園也不會混淆所以行政中立會是考試院現在非常重要的一個方向因為有一些事情他不適合由行政院自己來做他在升遷的部分留在考試院的部分讓考試院針對升遷相關的不管是訓練、內容的教育這個由考試院來負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1156.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1173.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那接下來還有另外一個因為時間的因素可能我只能再問一個問題就是績效考核制度這一次呢因為在這個勞動部的事件裡面我們可以看到呢當然在勞動部的這次事件因為很快的就把這個考期打出來了那考期當然有一般的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1174.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1201.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這是年終考機然後還有這個專案的考機那很多人就會去質疑想說為什麼這一次會根據這個專案的考機針對這一個這個謝姓的這個分署長然後呢給他記了兩大過等等之類的那像這種專案考機他什麼時候應該出現那他會不會有一些政治的判斷這個制度本身的設計合不合理那你們可能簡短的回答就可以了因為時間到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1203.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1203.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
好,謝謝省委員 |