| IVOD_ID |
15743 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15743 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-20T08:31:07+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-20T12:52:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:20:53 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d8729a3a0ba87e8ccbdae56b7a60aa52c3be8d109af184be44a21f610e1b5ef375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:07 - 12:52:00 |
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包括委員會：初期委員：時人與主法定人數好我們現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1903.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1926.359 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國113年3月14日星期四上午9時至12時37分地點紅樓森林議會議室出席委員黃仁等9人、略席委員吳麗華等18人、請教委員洪森漢、寧毅君、略席人員國防部部長邱國正及所屬人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1927.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1951.598 |
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國家安全局副局長柯承亨海洋委員會副主任委員兼海巡署署長卓梅武主席馬周吉委員文君報告事項一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定二、邀請國防部部長邱國正報告面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為並請國家安全局副局長海洋委員會副主任委員列席並備質詢。國防部部長邱國正 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1954.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1978.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
及作戰及計劃參謀次長是次長陳文新報告委員黃仁等16人質詢．均由國防部部長邱國正．副部長薄鴻輝情報參謀次長是次長嚴友賢陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義及海洋委員會副主任委員兼海巡署署長周梅武等即席答覆決定依登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及巡大結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1979.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1981.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請問在場委員對於上次會議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2007.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2017.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那我們議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項二﹖邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告業務概況．並備質詢。宣讀完畢首先我們先介紹在場的委員陳永康委員王定宇召委羅美玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2036.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2039.699 |
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陳冠廷委員沈伯陽委員介紹今天出席的官員首先介紹外交部吳釗燮吳部長亞東太平洋司藍夏禮藍司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2063.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2082.106 |
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亞西及非洲司賀宗毅賀司長﹐歐洲司黃君耀黃司長﹐拉丁美洲及加勒比海司鄭麗成鄭司長﹐北美司王良玉王司長﹐條約法律司連建成連司長﹐國際組織司孫簡元孫司長﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2090.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2102.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
國際合作及經濟事務司林美成副司長國際傳播司徐永梅徐司長研究設計會張曉光張主任李斌處李志強李處長秘書處洪振榮洪處長人事處黃立琳黃處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2115.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2125.499 |
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政風處 周志信 周處長主計處 李佩華 李處長資訊及電務處 羅倩薇 副處長公眾外交協調會 劉永健 劉執行長非政府組織 國際事務會 陳剛毅 陳執行長台灣日本關係協會 范振國 范秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2143.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2156.726 |
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臺灣美國事務委員會．薛秘書長外交及國際事務學院．李欣盈．李副院長領事事務局．何振環．何局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2158.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2173.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
財團法人 國際合作發展基金會李朝誠 李秘書長財團法人 台灣民主基金會黃玉玲 黃執行長財團法人 太平洋經濟合作理事會中華民國委員會許俊彬 許秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2181.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2184.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
本日會議邀請外交部．釗部長報告業務概況．並備質詢．請吳部長上臺報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2198.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2219.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
主席各位委員各位女士各位先生各位媒體朋友大家早首先我要感謝貴委員會和大院八年來對踏實外交政策和對外交部的策略和支持很榮幸現在能夠來大院報告外交的業務書面的報告就請大家參與以下就重點來做口頭的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2220.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2236.824 |
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八年來我國的外交挑戰和考驗不斷除了受到世界局勢變動威權主義擴張地緣政治衝突新冠肺炎疫情爆發等傳統和非傳統的安全威脅之外那更要適時面對中國的打壓和威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2238.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2262.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所幸,在和國人道頂帕扁的這個精神之下,我們克服了挑戰,把握契機,一步一腳印推動踏實外交,使得台灣成為國際關鍵字,維持台海和平穩定成為國際共識,民主夥伴挺台力道增加,經貿外交不斷突破,台灣的國際能見度再度提升。 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2265.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2281.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
從貴院上個會期以來外交部挑戰依舊嚴峻尤其是中國對我們的打壓變本加厲除了用混合手段對我們的大選借選之外又在選後的兩天就誘拉我們的友邦諾魯轉向 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2282.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2299.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
而且再度以所謂的一中原則連結扭曲聯合國大會第2758號決議案之後又片面宣布重啟M503航線擴大近下海域爭端步步對台灣進逼縱然如此我們再次順利完成總統大選 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2301.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2320.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
有幫美國日本歐洲等超過一百個國家一千六百多名的政要恭賀我國的民主成就而除了有幫的元首之外還包括捷克的總統菲律賓的總統等等也對我們致賀再一次奠立了台灣民主發展的一個重大里程碑 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2321.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2346.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
從大院上個會期以來我們在和國人共同打拼之下達成相當多的外交成果首先在深化邦誼方面賴總統當選人分別和巴拉圭、帛琉和馬紹爾群島的總統視訊互動並且接受恭賀友邦的元首和高層官員在這段時間也落衣來訪各項合作計畫也都順利地進行我們全力來維繫邦誼穩定 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2349.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2370.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
其次,台灣跟美國、日本、歐洲等各個國家深化交流和合作關係多元而且發展非常快速美國和日本和歐盟等持續強調台海和平穩定的重要性重申對台的承諾反對片面改變現狀而且支持台灣擴大國際參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2372.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2393.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
例如美國的拜登政府已經13度宣布對台軍售並且首度為台灣匡列單獨預算項目在2025年的會計年度預算中由國務院編列了1億美元歷史性的這個原台預算那另外在國防部也編列了5億元的Presidential Drawdown Authority |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2394.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2408.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
美國國會對台灣的堅定支持也不分黨派不僅通過多項友台的法案和決議從去年10月以來多位國會議員更接續來訪接下來還會有更多的美國國會議員來台灣訪問 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2411.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2429.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
此外,繼簽署臺美21世紀貿易倡議首批協定之後,美國眾議院1月也通過了《2024年美國家庭以及勞工稅務減免法案》,納入了《美台快速減免雙重課稅法案》和《美台租稅協定授權法案》兩個章節。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2431.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2460.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
而雙方在全球合作暨訓練架構也就是GCTF的這個架構之下各個領域的合作也更加制度化在台日關係上面日本的外務大臣今年已經是算連續第三年在國會的開議演說的時候提到台海和平那這半年來已經有48位日本的國會議員陸續率團來訪在在證明台日交流更加密切熱絡而在歐洲 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2461.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2482.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
各國挺台的密度和聲量持續快速上升支持台海安全已經成為歐洲多國的政策對華政策跨國議會聯盟也就是IPAC今年3月發起了一個Operation MIST就是MIST行動計畫強調維護台海和平穩定是各國共同的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2483.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2504.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
歐洲議會2月也通過了歐盟共同外交暨安全政策以及共同安全暨防禦政策兩個決議案支持深化和臺灣的全面性夥伴關係我們臺灣和歐洲的經貿連結也持續強化例如臺灣跟英國簽署了深化貿易夥伴關係的這個協議歐洲議會也多次決定強化雙邊投資協定 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2511.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2538.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
另外,我們台灣跟歐洲也持續深化交流。譬如說,本人去年11月到立陶宛、拉脫維亞和愛沙尼亞在三個國家都分別發表公開的演講。立陶宛的國會議長施明尼‧財努森在跟歐洲的多個國家的政要也都陸續訪台。除了強化合作之外,並且以具體的行動展現對台灣的支持。 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2540.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2562.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
除了美國、日本、歐洲我們外交部也持續推動新南向政策比如說泰國政府從去年11月起就給我國免簽我們外交部也在同一時間首次辦理印太地區的福爾摩沙俱樂部第二屆年會我們將會跟相關的部會持續來深化和新南向國家的各項合作、強化交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2563.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2577.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
另外,國際社會支持和認同台灣國際參與的力道不斷提升我國的友邦和美國、日本、歐洲等理念相信國家持續以多元的方式支持台灣參與世界衛生組織、國際行情組織以及聯合國等國際組織以1月世界衛生組織第154屆執行委員會當作例子除了友邦為我直言之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2588.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2604.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
美國、日本、英國、加拿大、澳洲、法國、德國、歐盟等國家為我發言共達17次其中美國、日本兩國更明確提到台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2606.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2618.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
全力支持臺灣有意義參與國際組織那對於全球性的議題我們也持續做出更多的貢獻例如我們協助友邦來對抗氣候變遷協助烏克蘭的重建工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2619.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2638.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
也對日本土耳其和墨西哥等遭逢天災的國家和人民提供人道援助作為外交部長本人和外管館長也積極的透過各種管道以及多元的方式向國際發聲這半年來我已經接受了很多次的國際主流媒體的採訪 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2640.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2666.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那我想從2018年2月我接外交部長到目前為止從來沒有間斷過在剩餘的在這個任期蔡總統的任期的最後這一段期間我的這個工作也不會停下來向國際社會來說明我們台灣的立場說明我們台灣的故事這個是外交部長的責任那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2667.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2677.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
在國際新興組織大會以及聯合國氣候變化綱要工業組織第28屆第一月防大會期間為了爭取更多的國際支持我和外館的館長也針對相關的這個議題有專文和投書一共超過560篇 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2685.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2700.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
政府即將在520交接回顧這8年來外交部秉持拚外交護台灣的精神也全力以赴請容我本人在這裡檢要報告過去這8年來的整體的成果包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2701.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2717.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
第一,臺海和平穩定已經成為國際共識,理念鄉親國家尤其重視這個議題。第二,民族夥伴越來越挺臺灣,其中臺美關係堅若磐石,臺歐關係史上最佳,臺日關係共榮典範,臺澳臺加關係強勁夥伴。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2722.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2737.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
經貿外交不斷有重要的突破,包括臺美經貿合作在強化,臺加、臺英、臺日、臺韓貿易關係也不斷更上層樓,臺灣跟新南向政策、國家也都有相當多的經貿成果。 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2739.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2766.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第4貢獻世界．並展現善的循環．包括防疫外交．人道援助烏克蘭．土耳其．利比亞等多國第5向國際發聲．並且讓世界看到臺灣．透過多元外交．元首外交．國際媒體專訪．促成更多外媒駐臺等方式．提升臺灣的能見度．成效斐然第6拓展外交並且走向世界．8年來我們外交打陣． |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2767.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2768.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
展望未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2782.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2782.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2809.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2824.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
現在我們開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘﹖非本會委員8分鐘10點30分﹖發言登記截止﹖如有臨時提案﹖請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理﹖現在請羅美玲委員上臺質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2834.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2839.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
謝謝主席有請吳部長還有林務局和局長請吳部長還有林務局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2846.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2866.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
部長早部長我今天要跟兩位討論的議題其實是老問題我想請教就是說有關於我國這個外籍配偶申請一金結婚面談我們從民國81年施行到現在已經二十幾年了那二十幾年以來我們做過哪一些滾動式的這個調整有嗎有沒有定期討論這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2872.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2886.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
應該說是不定期的我們都會去檢討所謂不定期的檢討是怎麼樣的檢討方式我們會再看一些相關的數據比如說一些個案累積下來的一些大數據有違法違常的情況 個別國家的 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2887.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2893.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
上一屆的時候其實我也跟部長還有領務局做過相關的討論本來我們在2021年以前我們是有22國然後我們經過多次的討論後來我們拿掉了哈薩克、白俄羅斯跟烏茲別克這三個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2917.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2939.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
就像剛剛局長你有提到就是說我們會看看他在臺灣的圍場的情況或是說申請的案件是不是還有在申請我所知道說像好像有些國家已經很多年都沒有申請相關的這案件我所了解的像塞內加爾我也不知道為什麼他會一直掛在這上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2939.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2962.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以這部分這數據我再想可能要兩年三年檢討一次因為我覺得說這種面談常常會被討論是因為其實有很多的這個詬病真的有很多的這個問題那當然我想請教的就主要說這個面談制度有沒有想說要朝向更加便民的方式來進行因為目前的話就是說國人要跟這幾個面談國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2966.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2966.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
局長﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2996.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3011.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
謝謝委員指教我們領悟的服務工作能夠提高這個服務品質跟便利性這個絕對是我們要努力的方向那我們所知道就是說非常的不便民那這部分的話有沒有辦法比照議題當中的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3013.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3039.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
如果說有不便名的情況基本上在近年來主要是因為受到疫情的影響累積的案件太多所以排隊的時間太多那其他的部分我們其實有做了很多的改革包括一些詢問問題的這個一些專業的程度跟避開敏感性的部分我們其實都有一直在做檢討那有關這個就是排隊時間過長的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3041.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3044.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
目前跟台灣人結婚最多的是哪兩個國家? |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3063.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3085.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
越南跟印尼嘛越南有多大呢越南是台灣的53倍大然後越南是台灣的將近10倍大印尼是台灣的53倍大真的是幅員非常非常的遼闊不像說我台中到台北可能兩個多小時我高雄到台北可能4個小時也許 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3085.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3085.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
委員會議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3107.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3111.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
來演繹出一個比較便民的方式減少勞民傷財然後周車勞頓那還有一點國人也必須飛一趟比如說現在要迎娶印尼的配偶必須飛一趟印尼去面談 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3122.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3137.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那像這種方式已經行之有年2005年到現在了那是不是我們可以來演繹說讓整個面談的方式更加的彈性國人跟這些國家這19個國家的配偶結婚是非常非常的辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3143.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3169.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
都非常的辛苦像印尼、菲律賓、越南、泰國、柬埔、在斯里蘭卡、印度跟這些國家的人民結婚我們都要到他們的國家去面談那還有一點如果說假設好了有一個印尼的朋友他在這裡認識了台灣人兩個人都在台灣那如果他們要結婚的話這兩個本來在台灣的人還必須飛一趟印尼去面談這個合理嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3172.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3179.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這方式合理嗎兩個人都在台灣了為什麼還要再回去印尼面談有沒有比較彈性的做法請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3181.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3207.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
因為結婚面談他其實涉及到許多相關文件的這個審查他的這個文件是否真偽啊等等這些他必須是他人都在臺灣了啊對但是他相關的文件那所謂的真偽是怎麼樣一定要回到那邊才有能夠辨定他的他的真實性嗎因為住處裡面對於相關的這些辨認真偽的辨認是比我們在臺北做要來的要來的這個精確 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3208.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3225.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
局長我給一個建議啦我給一個建議我們都希望說朝向更圓融的方式來處理我也希望吳部長這邊也可以認真來看待這件事情我們剛剛我提到說疫情當中的方式可不可以來延續我不曉得你們這時候那三年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3225.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3226.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
﹚委員﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3256.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3261.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
中國的配偶他們是來到台灣的機場或港口才面談國人沒有說要飛到中國去的這個問題這部分可不可以來參照因為中國籍的配偶跟這個外籍配偶他們的面談方式是不一樣當然是兩個法不一樣只是說可不可以參照 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3282.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3307.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
因為跟這些19個國家結婚的這個國人真的非常的辛苦就一定要飛一趟比如說現在要去烏克蘭的配偶就得飛一趟烏克蘭要去這個巴基斯坦的配偶必須飛一趟巴基斯坦那可不可以來比照中國籍的配偶我們在他們落地機場或是港口的時候呢來設一個辦事處 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3310.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3310.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
中國籍的配偶其實是佔了所有新住民的最大宗 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3335.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3341.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
他們都可以在港口或機場來面談,國人也不需要飛一趟中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3343.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3360.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
對 那個委員講得非常好 外景配偶也可以來比照啊 是不是對 委員講得非常好 這個可不可以來研究看看我們一定會來研究 就是跟委員回報 就是我們的政策態度現在就是說朝向越來越便民 越來越方便 最好對 因為這個已經實行了20幾年了所以我才問說 因為時空環境的轉換所以說實在的 我們該修的還是要修那我們這是為了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3371.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3395.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
新住民跟家人的這個團聚權所以有時候他們跟我講說真的是非常的辛苦就算先生或太太要飛一趟國外真的是所謂的舟車勞頓饒命傷財有一次美國還要第二次第三次所以這個部分要麻煩部長還有局長認真來思考如何去調整我們境外面談的這個制度跟內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3397.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3423.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那當然剛剛有提到了就是說面談官他所問的這個內容真的要非常的專業不要問說喜宴第一道菜吃什麼第三道菜吃什麼沒人記得也不要問說第一次約會在哪裡有一次約會像我之前見到的一個case面試官問說你們第一次約會在哪裡啊太太說在逢甲大學先生說在台中公園哇你們就是你們就是這就不是真的要結婚 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3423.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3447.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
就是說你們講的就不一樣也許一天當中去了台中公園又去了逢甲大學也有可能啊可是他才可能就不知道說台中公園是在哪裡啊根本對台灣就不熟悉嘛對不對所以只要稍微講一點不一樣然後就說你們這是假結婚所以這個內容可能要去做修正對面試官數字也要提高不要去問一些非常私密早期真的是去問一些非常私密的這個問題真的這跟人權有關係這是很不應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3451.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3470.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這部分我在想應該是要來做這個全面的檢討我覺得這個制度還沿用20幾年的這個面談制度我覺得很不應該當然你們應該會講說可能還有人口販運等等這個我都我能夠理解這部分我可以理解可是說我們面談的這個內容跟方式應該朝向更加便民的方式來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3471.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3490.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我們來做檢討那也跟委員報告一下就是過去這段時間其實我們也面對一些必須要去做的這個防弊的事情那我們接下來就是說在防弊跟提供便捷化的這個服務上面如果取得一個更好的這個平衡那我在這邊也答應委員就是說我們很認真的來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3491.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3502.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
對這部分我已經跟各位已經真的是討論很多很多年了可是我就覺得真的沒有什麼進度好那再來我們有一些所謂免於面談的這個部分可是這個免於面談的部分我在想說核准的這一個通過數真的是非常的少像2022年越南有2922人申請結果呢通過的就122 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3514.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3528.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那柬埔寨有7位結果是都不通過那當然你們有列了7種可以免於面談的這個方式可是真正適用的部分真的是很少又是第5點我曾經遇見過一個越南的大學生女大生他認識了台灣的這個先生那他們在他還沒有完成學業的時候就跟這位先生結婚了當然後續他有完成他的學業可是這結婚的點剛好是在他在學生那個時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3541.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3549.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
兩個人都已經在台灣了可是呢還是得飛回越南去面談那我們就覺得非常的奇怪類似面對這種兩個人都已經在台灣了還需要再飛到 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3555.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3564.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
配偶的母國去面談這部分讓我覺得很匪夷所思這部分是不是可以來做彈性的這個檢討我們來檢討對人都已經在這裡他是學生難道學生有偽造的問題嗎我想不會有吧以上的問題請兩位回去可以好好地來思考因為我在想說這個部分是外籍配偶長期以來一直在討論的問題也希望領悟局外交部這邊能給一個比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3583.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3584.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
謝謝主席,麻煩外交部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3618.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3631.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
今天有幾個問題要請教第一個美國在剛剛最新的消息他宣布是在4月份要在美國召開美國菲律賓日本三國的元首高峰會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3633.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3653.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那這一個應該是拜登政府第一次把這三個國家元首集合在一起那討論的主題大概就是中國在南海的擴張以及軍事灰色地帶挑釁導致區域的不安我看布林肯這個最近是在菲律賓南海這邊拜訪他們特別提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3655.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3677.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這個美非的共同防禦條約那日本岸田文雄也提到美日安保條例那也指出在南海地區如果菲律賓的飛機船艦領土遭受中國的攻擊的話他們要出手共同防禦所以這一個看起來是一個升高溫度的一個狀態那當然太平島是我們國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3679.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3680.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3695.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3711.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
當然可以依照我們國家的利益跟我們國家需求來考量判斷你就最近太平島的議題其實我把它拉大來看太平島議題從來就不是只看太平島那個是南海議題在南海目前的局勢你身為我們國家外交首長你怎麼判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3712.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3737.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
非常謝謝委員提出這個問題的確這個議題在最近這一兩天受到高度的這個討論那我必須要說明就是說太平島就是我們的主權範圍那這個是毫無疑問的無庸置疑絕對是我們的主權那不管是用什麼樣的這個方式太平島都是屬於我們的主權範圍太平島主權有被人挑戰嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3738.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3747.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
目前是有那個越南菲律賓他們是有長期的聲索啦什麼那個我們講但是目前沒有沒有任何新的狀況太平島上面我們都還有海巡的駐軍在那邊這個是持續存在的一個事實所以沒有新的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3757.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3782.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那但是有關於整個南海的局勢就好像剛剛委員所說的除了我們大家在媒體上面所看到的中國跟菲律賓的海巡的這個衝撞之外那另外中國也有很多的所謂 maritime militia就是海上民兵他們可能數量高達五六百艘的這種那個他們叫little blue man小藍人船隊我把它縮小一下我們的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3783.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3802.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
對於國家元首 其實我們任何政治人物跟國家元首當然是不同層級啦對於國家元首來登島 當然太平島是我們國家主權所在我從來就不認為 哪一任的元首去或不去是問題是如何去 什麼時候去選擇對國家最有利的方式 這才是問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3804.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3829.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
對於目前南海的局勢當美日非你知道這三個國家跟台灣是安全息息相關的國家一個在宮古海峽的北邊日本一個在巴士海峽南邊的菲律賓兩邊都有美國的駐軍所以這三國跟台灣的區域安全地緣政治是緊密關係所以當目前整個南海的局勢會升溫會緊張唯一的因素就是中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3830.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3846.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
只有中國跟他的海警海他的相關的海軍相關的軍事力量在南海的擴張引起了不管是這個越南菲律賓等南海國家連澳洲都捲進去了所以在這個緊張的局勢下 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3848.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3870.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
台灣應該扮演的是去升溫的角色還是應該跟民主陣營站在一起維穩把它穩定下來的角色你作為一個外交首長你怎麼看這個事作為外交部長對於這個事情的看法當然我們要被國際社會看作是一個維持和平穩定的一個重要的這個角色而不是在這邊製造更多紛擾的一個角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3872.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3889.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那有關於我們對太平島的這個行動那我想政府的相關機關一定會去思考在最佳的時間點之下去做一些比較好的事情或是做最好的事情那這個就必須要由國家整體利益來衡量 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3889.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3905.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
目前的timing是不是目前的timing是不合適因為我們看到的南海地區真的是佔原命補除了我剛剛講的那個中國的海巡船跟菲律賓衝撞以及他有海上民兵之外另外中國大概有每天都大約有兩 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3905.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3924.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3924.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3929.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
有沒有聽國防部提過我們去運補的,因為有很多教授去太平島做研究嘛,我們的飛機有沒有曾經被騷擾過? |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3943.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3972.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這個部分我並沒有問國防部OK好那個不是你選擇我就不為難你所以我基本上我認為元首到任何的地方當然有他特殊的意義跟特殊點我們的主權當然要維護維護的方法要選擇對台灣最有利的至於像我們委員會要去不去我覺得要尊重召委的排案權每個委員有自己個別考量那一部分我就不多做琢磨我現在請教一個問題最新的消息歐洲議會的副議長這一位歐特任 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3973.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3988.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
以及他本身也是歐洲議會交通委員會的副主委那他跟27位歐洲議會的國會議員、跨黨派、跨國家聯合致函給IKEA國際民航組織他們針對什麼議題呢?他認為中國未經飛航情報區的協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3994.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4008.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
單方面的變動503航道這件事情是影響飛行安全是政治上的脅迫而也實質影響了飛航安全所以這27名歐洲議會議員直接致函I kill |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4009.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4036.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
說國際民航組織就是要對國際民航安全負責任的啊你們應該要有所行動外交部有沒有掌握這個訊息有當然有那這是什麼情形 說明一下事前這些歐洲議會的好朋友也事先讓我們知道那我們也跟他們說明就是說中國其實這些做法都是在片面改變現狀而且會造成區域的緊張情勢不斷的上升那這種做法對區域的和平穩定是一點幫助都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4037.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4058.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我們本身有沒有致函我們雖然不是IKO的會員我們沒有但是我們通過這些有盟的國家其實國際民航組織有規定你這種航線的變動不是不行做個文明的國家嘛有需要大家拿出來討論上海飛航情報區跟台北飛航情報區大家要談嘛否則這個我跟陳上將也聊過 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4059.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4079.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
你那萬一遇到狀況要破降的時候到底是我們要不要收還是不收這很多細節要討論所以回到飛航安全國際民航組織基本規範然後國際聲援讓在台灣的另外一邊能夠學習做文明守規範的國家所以這28位含這個歐洲議會副議長這個致函我覺得希望後續還有連鎖效應但我們也呼籲國際民航組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4085.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4086.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4108.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4134.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這個蠻驚喜的那臺灣外基要處境困難中國的圍堵力道很大我們都能體會所以彈性外交呈現我們柔性國力呈現我們民主國家的價值這是我們外交上很重要的工具所以就蕭美琴訪歐她還參加Synopsis就是解析中國的論壇等等她出訪的身份是用什麼身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4136.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4163.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
非常謝謝委員詢問他稍早之前在美國這一趟的行程單純就是他的私人的行程處理他個人的事情即使是只有處理個人的事情因為他的身份是副總統當選人所以我們跟美方之間也有一些溝通以他現在的身份外交部或者是國際上的朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4165.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4187.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
他們認為他是總統當選人他還沒有就職的副總統當選人沒有錯現在還是private citizen的身份但是對待他的方式是用一般的private citizen對待他的方式你如果說從這個圖片看來你就可以知道說對我們的副總統當選人有高度的這種禮遇有禮遇啦第二個那他去維安的部分怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4188.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4188.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我這樣問好了,他有沒有維安的保護? |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4206.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4216.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
他當然是受我們那個國家安全的這個保護因為受我們國安單位的維安的基本的標準的保護這就是一個領域這就是一個身份的象徵 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4222.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4247.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
當然堂西外交我們有很多必須低調的地方我就要問這個問題你方便回答就回答不方便回答我尊重國家利益那除了捷克還有別的國家嗎我不方便回答OK好我尊重我希望每一個人不管在公職位置或在民間能夠幫台灣的外交多擴展哪怕一公分的空間大家都一起努力這個是我們外交部全力在努力的方向那 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4249.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4273.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
蕭副總統接下來是直接要從歐洲就回台灣了嗎?應該是如此你也可以直接回答所以他從歐洲會直接回台灣?應該是如此安全上還是要注意畢竟在歐洲還是有一些特殊狀況我接下來請教一個是我們的邦交國海地海地目前的狀況連他們的行政首長總理都被 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4274.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4275.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
目前的確國內是很紛亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4296.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4317.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那但是在很紛亂的狀況之下我們當地的那個外館的人員也非常仔細的去觀察瞭解當地的這個情勢看會不會對我們有進一步的影響那目前的騷亂是聚集在飛機場和港口的這個周圍那因為我們大使館的這個範圍他為什麼聚集在這兩個這兩個看起來就是Terminal |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4321.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4337.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這也是人口聚集的地方那也是幫派活動的重點那海地政府跟其他我們相關友邦的國家在那一邊這個社會秩序有沒有辦法恢復大家都共同在努力當中比如說美國也召集了Caricom |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4337.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4338.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我請教最後一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4351.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4371.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我們駐館的人員安全跟我們在那邊僑民啊台商的安全目前都還安全目前都還安全那有沒有撤僑的計畫跟撤僑的那個決策的時間點大概在什麼樣的狀況下因為我們曾經派過軍機去援助他嘛我們曾經兩架C13棟載著物資過去我的意思說因為距離太遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4371.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4372.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
目前是在警戒的階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4388.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4407.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那警戒的階段就是說事情必須要讓我們提高警戒那也必須要去做好準備那該做撤的這些準備的這些計畫我們也都做計畫了就你當部長現在掌握的情勢狀況海地的局勢是往可能撤館撤橋的方向走還是往下走 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4409.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4437.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
目前是都停留在這個階段就是我們必須要去密切關注的這個階段那可能還不到撤館的這個地步其實我們所看到的像美國或者是歐盟等等的德國等等的其實他們只是撤掉所謂的non-essential那把不必要的人員先撤開他們眷屬他們先回國了對大使館都還在持續運作當中安全第一因為那國家目前是在混亂當中好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4441.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4443.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢請吳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4470.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4471.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
財政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4486.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4493.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
謝謝委員 委員能不能讓我講一些話來回應委員您先請其實我從2015、2016年那時候也曾經有短暫的時間跟委員有這種互動的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4501.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4515.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那我想委員的這種學識經驗以及為人處事是我向來非常重視的而且非常尊敬的所以在這邊有這個機會能夠在這邊跟委員來從事這個答詢的工作我感到無上的光榮謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4518.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4532.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
剛才在前面王委員提到目前的南海局勢非常複雜以及503航線這個問題那麼我個人有一些經驗跟大家分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4533.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4533.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4555.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4556.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4578.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4578.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4604.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4604.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
宣紙兵法 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4618.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4641.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
上兵伐謀 其次伐交這兩個講穿了所有的壓力就是外交部承擔那麼其次伐兵旗下攻城那麼這兩個呢就是國防部來承擔事實上這四個面向的壓力它是同步發生所以外交國防是一體兩面要有很好的協商那在這個同時我們看到裡面了 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4642.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4667.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
中國大陸對台是威懾武嚇,軍演困台。它是一種沒有戰火的消耗戰。那麼慈禧利誘以貿逼陣,目前是一個短期內沒有替代的市場戰。美中角力談判施壓,這是一個沒有邦交的友盟戰。那麼國際孤立滲透分裂,這又是一個沒有席位的法律戰。 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4671.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4696.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
前一陣子德國馬歇爾基金會葛萊依女士訪問台灣她特別講到現在中國大陸對台的方法它是一個四路並用的不對稱方法它其實最終的目的就是不停的施壓施壓全面性的施壓那希望造成你國家生存安全重心的動搖但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4698.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4709.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
親信的是國防部跟外交部在這上面堅持我們的立場而且所有國內外工作同仁的共同努力能夠挺得住撐得下去那事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4711.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4729.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
老共的手法他實際上如果以葛萊依女士講法他是一種捅窟式就是越窟越緊實際上他用了2019年一個英國的報章上講他用了一個名詞叫做一個蟒蛇戰略就是Anaconda strategy他就是越窟越緊 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4730.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4752.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
所以必須有堅強的自信心有堅韌的社會強度以及能夠內外協同論述一致的整體戰略觀那這個樣子下國防外交作為一體兩面來支持國家的主權維護國家的利益因此我後面做的一個是一個很簡單的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4754.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4763.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
外交部的人才基金但是年輕一代現在進來以後我們希望提供更好的教育學院培養下一代的卓越的人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4765.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4793.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
因此戰略觀的教育我們希望能夠強化納入到這個外交學院裡面因為不僅止於是對話式或是作業的協調的外交程序而是你要有一個宏觀的局勢分析那麼並不受限於這個在比方講中歐東歐或者是南太平洋或是南海它是一個全面向的那下面呢我就用一個簡單的圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4795.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4811.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
只是提出一個建議我們在智庫上不是形式上的蹲點需要有實務性的參與協作包括各部會駐外的這個智庫的蹲點希望能夠跟我們的駐外使館代表處能夠有更深層的互動 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4814.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4837.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
訪問學者及官民互訪,我們希望學術交流的主題能夠配合現在的國際情勢的發展而不是設定預想一個題目,只在那個比較偏遠的邊境去溯源而是現在要反映到動態國際現實的變化上我們讓這些年輕的受訓的學員,未來的派駐的外交官,能有更深的學習角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4839.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4859.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
人才培育是用而訓 要訓用合一當然我們部內有一個嚴格的考核制度精進選訓用的制度也要納入國際特定區域專業的經驗來分享因為服務的經驗因為地區不同像教廷的經驗跟南美洲的經驗它是完全不相同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4860.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4873.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我們應該要領選優秀的學生進修而且現在在大學裡面我們就希望在社團裡面找到未來有志從事外交事務的年輕學生及早能夠讓他參與這種選訓用的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4876.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4904.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
最後就是領選駐外專業的課程與師資我特別強調希望在我們的外交學院在這個裡面要精進專業考核的審查包括政經安全以及法院的領域因為我們希望越來越優秀的年輕人才能夠加入外交部共同為國家的利益為國家主權為中華民國的在國際的影響力來做貢獻發聲謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4906.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4924.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
部長你有沒有什麼的指教?非常謝謝委員提出來的這些意見和建議我在這邊就很簡單的回應一下委員所提出來的的確我們所面對的這個國際的情勢是相當的龐大的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4926.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4949.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那委員剛剛已經說明的非常清楚的中國政府從各式各樣的這個角度不管是為外交的軍事的混合戰的這種方式是要限縮我們的活動空間要壓縮我們在回應的時候的這個縱深那在這種情形之下我們外交部甚至是我們其他的那個國安單位就必須要去思考我們整體的這個大的戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4950.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4965.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那我想對我們台灣來講最好的一個戰略就是結識以及跟越來越多的這些好朋友重要的國家關係越來越深厚的話這個對我們台灣的這個戰略的這個終身是有更多的幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4967.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4987.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那在這個政策的指導之下在過去這幾年我相信委員也看到了就是我們跟美國的關係跟日本跟澳洲加拿大英國以及歐盟的整體的關係都有長足的進展那委員剛剛特別提到說中東歐國家那因為中東歐國家我們台灣看到的是因為他們的那個彈性比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4988.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5014.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那個對我們台灣的這種支持的這個口徑是特別的大但是對我們台灣來講我們也知道的非常清楚就是說這些重要的民主國家是我們必須要去全力去發展關係的那在過去這段時間我剛剛提到的這幾個國家跟我們的關係也是越來越緊密那這個就是我們大戰略之下的一個政策的一個成果那具體而為 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5016.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5027.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
委員剛剛所提到的就是說在教育在人才的培訓上面那的確我們也是在這個軌道上面來走那我們願意把委員所提出來這些所有的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5029.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5056.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
來檢討一下看我們還有什麼樣不足的這個部分讓我們的年輕的這個外交官能夠在外面能夠有所發揮那在這邊也順便跟委員說明一下就是說2018年我到外交部之後其實我給外交部的這些年輕的同仁的這個空間是比以前大很多所以我們外交部整體的這個戰力或者是說他們的創造性是比以前更好那這個部分是我們會持續來加強的謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5058.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5072.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
謝謝部長的論述,也感謝您的支持跟指導,謝謝謝謝委員接下來,請林楚英委員上台發言謝謝主席,主席有請吳部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5089.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5115.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
委員好部長好很開心我能夠來到國防外交委員會有機會正式的以這個委員會的委員本委員會委員來質詢您我想這個國防跟外交事實上它某種程度上是一體兩面對於國家來說這個外交做得好的話可以避免很多不必要的衝突跟紛爭然後很多的衝突跟紛爭發生的時候我們第一步絕對不可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5117.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5120.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
中國對於我們台灣的認知作戰之外知識戰、法律戰、輿論戰、心理戰各種戰通通都來最重要就是要營造灰色地帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5144.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5164.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那麼之前我們前面在這個委員會所討論的包括三無船等等的事件其實大家都非常的擔憂那麼到底台灣現在是不是還要在一些更顯衝突的地方要去展現我們的所謂國家的主權跟意志剛剛前面王定宇委員有特別提到有關於太平島的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5166.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5183.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
呃我知道許多在野黨的委員尤其是現在認為是說來我們就上太平島來宣誓主權但是以外交來講由外交部長來做一個定義互主權宣誓主權一定是要元首登到某一個地方才叫宣誓主權嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5185.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5210.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
不一定是要這樣子我們必須要去找尋最好的方式最好的時機點來凸顯我們的這個戰略那我想在這個事情上面大家的共通點是說要凸顯我們的主權那但是因為太平島的這個主權是非常清楚的這個無庸置疑的所以我們必須要去想到的就是說什麼事情對我們國家有利什麼事情對我們國家不利 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5217.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5239.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
太平島的主權就像您剛所說的就是我們中華民國的因為我們有駐軍然後我們有一個完全的國旗就插在那裡以國際上面來講有駐軍有國旗的象徵的領土我們是不是就視為主權的一部分就像在台灣我們有許多的外交使節他們是住在台灣的他的大使館 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5240.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5258.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
是不是就是屬於他們領土的延伸沒有錯對那所以太平島是不是中華民國台灣的其中的一部分這個還需要是一個總統登島才能夠宣誓的嗎沒有他的事實的存在就是我們的主權 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5259.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5278.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那如果是這樣的話主權確定那麼接下來當然還有另外一個論述是說哎呀現在那附近南海附近很亂啦然後呢這個紛擾不斷啦我們就用一個和平宣言來做一個宣示表示這裡我們就要愛好和平但是我們知道的這個南海紛爭不斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5280.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5308.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那包括現在主權的聲索國除了我們台灣之外中國、菲律賓、越南、馬來西亞、汶萊跟印尼我剛剛前面就講了外交、國防其實是一體的現在在那裡頭到底整個南海附近的海域如果就外交來研判現在最近是一個什麼樣的狀態因為很多國人說實話比起金門的三無船他們是比較關注的因為我們有漁民在那裡捕魚 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5309.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5333.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
但是南海的情勢他們其實不見得會了解或是新聞跳出來他們也會跳過去最近開始關注是因為在黨的委員認為應該讓蔡英文總統在卸任之前先上太平島來宣示一下主權但當然你已經說過了嘛宣示主權的方式其實很多種更何況我們主權就在那不用特別去做這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5333.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5339.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那南海的情勢又是如何呢很多民眾其實是不了解的到底現在南海的情勢是狀況是什麼樣的一個紛爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5342.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5366.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
非常謝謝委員這個問題的確是非常的重要那在過去這一兩個禮拜國際媒體上面不斷的去報導就是說中國的海巡跟菲律賓的海巡在海上有衝撞那甚至是有四個菲律賓的海巡人員受傷那這個只是媒體上面所看到的一個小小的一個衝突而已那其實在南海議題上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5367.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5391.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
中國除了用海巡船之外他也有四五百艘的那個海上民兵就是說四五百噸級的這個漁船上面是有武裝的那這些是他們的解放軍所指揮的那除了這個之外我們經常性看到的這些情資也可以看到中國經常性的有20艘以上的軍艦在南海這邊在巡邏 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5392.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5418.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那除了這個之外南海上面也有好幾個島礁中國都已經把它建立成為一個龐大的這種軍事基地所以在南海的這個情勢的確是很緊張那有很多的這些美國的學者對於印太地區有很深入研究他們覺得說南海甚至是比台灣海峽是更危險更容易製造戰爭衝突的一個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5419.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5439.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那所以說就您的外交專業在這麼多的國家都在這裡因為不論是捕魚權或者是所他們預見的可能的石油的礦產權大家都在這裡可能有一處激發的衝突的過程當中我們還有一些大動作的作為在外交上面這是一個好的選項或選擇嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5441.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5468.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們必須要去衡量以我的觀點來看的話如果說我們這邊去造成一個印象就是說我們台灣不是在製造和平而是在製造爭端的話那這個對我們台灣來講是不好的尤其是在南海的這個區域緊張情勢越來越升高的狀況之下就好像剛剛在回答陳委員所說的我們必須要在國際社會上面結盟 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5469.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5483.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那在國際社會上面如果說要結盟要吸引到更多的國家對我們支持的話那這些國家看待我們的時候就必須要看待我們說我們是一個認真負責的我們是一個提倡和平穩定的好其實我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5484.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5508.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
滿意部長講到這個部分那就是我強調的很多時候不是先踏出去那一步引發不必要的誤會包括我們知道美非之間有一些共同防禦的協議對於南海大家都是站在一種希望和平共存的方式如果可以的話我們要做的是一種民主的結盟而不是說現在我們就直接去挑起不必要的爭端跟誤會那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5510.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5516.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
本席也認為啦就是說在這樣的一個狀況底下尤其前一陣子我們在這個委員會裡面還在討論三無船相關的事情其實如果是這樣的話我都覺得說與其到南海去引發紛爭不如大家一起到前線去幫我們海巡國軍來打氣還比較好那接下來我要問的另外一個部分是有關於新南向的部分剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5533.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5553.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
羅美玲委員關注的是有關於跨國婚姻的部分但是在疫情解封之後更多的國人關注的是說那麼我們要出國的時候到底可不可以有更便利的免簽那麼台灣的護照確實走向全世界非常的好用那麼也非常的有價值拿出這一本象徵台灣的護照 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5555.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5573.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
會感到光榮感之外當然就是許多的落地免簽不過我們現在來看一下就是有沒有機會可以爭取更多尤其是東南亞新南向的國家因為畢竟近那包括氣候環境等等大家國人也都非常喜歡我們現在事半14天的免簽適用的國家是怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5577.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5581.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
他們來就是包括像泰國、汶萊、菲律賓這是讓他們來促進我們的觀光他們可以免簽但是剛剛我所講的是那對於國人來講有沒有機會在免簽的部分做一些平等的互惠的部分在泰國的部分現在確實是有落地的免簽但是直到今年的5月10號 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5599.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5611.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那最近其實大家會看到蠻多的這些網紅啦YouTuber或是旅行家都會去介紹泰國很好玩但是我這邊辦公室就接到一些陳情是說那現在會不會在暑假之前免簽沒有了那麼有沒有再繼續洽談之中另外問來 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5616.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5634.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5635.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5647.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
請問部長的是目前這三個國家既然我們都事半14天的免簽讓他們的國人可以來台灣促進觀光那麼下一步的互惠的部分有沒有可能在持續的推動中或是在溝通當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5650.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5676.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我們都正在推動當中每一個國家都是我們希望能夠去爭取有這種互惠的這些措施但是每一個國家的那個條件都不一樣那在這邊委員所列出來這三個國家尤其是像泰國他們已經給我們免簽這段時間是免簽了那接下來希望他們能夠延長那這個部分我們正在積極的跟他們接洽當中希望是能夠延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5676.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5678.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我現在是不敢打包票但是我們有積極的去跟對方來接洽當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5692.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5706.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那另外 汶萊跟菲律賓呢 因為當然汶萊這個國家相對的過去大家可能在觀光上面不是這麼的了解但是菲律賓的話我相信他也是一個我們旅遊的大宗的國家那這兩個國家會朝儘量去免簽的方向去努力嗎 那麼有沒有什麼進度跟進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5713.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5725.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
在這邊跟委員報告一下有關於菲律賓的狀況這個是比較困難的啦就是菲律賓他的在台灣的這個代表機構就是MECO其實是靠簽證的這個費用來維繫他的這個能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5729.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5741.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那所以我們每次跟他們談到免簽他們也有意願然後要談到最後的時候就會碰上這個關卡那我們必須要跟他們認真的來繼續去恰看看是不是能夠有機會獲得他們的免簽的這個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5744.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5768.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
好因為現在是3月馬上4月會有一波的這個春節假期春假期間然後再來呢當然就是暑假了那麼當然國人會非常關心這個部分有的時候這樣子反而是跟國人最息息相關那最後當然最新的報導也說了就是越南也在著手研擬擴大單方向的免錢是那麼我們也希望台灣有機會能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5770.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5770.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
徐巧欣委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5807.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5808.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
謝謝主席,我想請吳部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5818.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5837.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我看到今天您的業務報告裡面是沒有提到大家都很關心的這個太平島的但是今天很多的委員也針對太平島的部分提出一些詢問首先想要問您作為外交部長認不認為維護領土主權是國家元首的重要責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5839.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5855.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這個是整個政府的責任我想跟人民是有這種共識的是的那國家元首登島對於維護領土主權有沒有加分這個是兩回事就是太平島是我們的主權去不去這個不會改變太平島的這個領土 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5856.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5874.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
但是當這個主權在國際社會上有爭議的時候我們的元首能夠登島代表什麼呢代表我們可以向國際社會說明這個太平島確實屬於中華民國而且很重要的是因為過去他被認為被某些人說他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5875.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5895.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
岩礁不是島可是我們知道在太平島上面我們自己自足還有淡水這些資訊或許中華民國的我們非常清楚但是國際社會上不一定知道所以我想問一下部長那如果能夠登島對於維護領土主權沒有加分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5899.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5912.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
能不能更讓國際社會理解到太平島第一個它的本質第二個它的主權屬於中華民國不管外面的人怎麼講但它實質的主權屬於中華民國在這方面有沒有宣示性效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5913.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5914.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
所以總統去不去你覺得對中華民國完全沒有差對國際社會也沒有差 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5930.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5930.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這個很重要齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5949.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5967.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
您講的沒有錯那總統去或不去呢坦白說我們都尊重這是他自己的選擇跟自己的權利但是呢我們覺得想去或是不想去的理由應該要跟外界社會做說明跟溝通剛才有很多其他的委員都有問您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5967.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5982.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那您多次的談到因為南海目前的情勢緊張包含中共他們可能相關的一些這個撲牌等等的你覺得這是總統如果沒有去的話的主要原因嗎因為南海情勢緊張所以不前往 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5983.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5987.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
請問一下南海這個部分的緊張那從您的角度來說大概從什麼時候到什麼時候什麼時候開始變緊張的 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6010.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6024.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
我想從中國在2014年2015年那時候在南海建立島礁那時候開始也就是南海軍事化的這個活動開始他的緊張的程度就不斷的提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6025.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6037.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那這一段期間中國在南海這邊的這個巡邏採取了很多這種挑釁危險的這些作為為什麼我們覺得南海情勢緊張就沒辦法登島了但是您剛談到的2016年嘛2016年馬英九前總統去視察太平島的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6042.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6066.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那實際上面也是您剛剛所說的比較緊張的這個範疇裡面但是他去登島之後一沒有給國際社會傳出錯誤的訊息我們是去發表了和平的倡議二也成功了宣誓的主權所以跟您剛剛講的一些說法似乎沒有這麼搭嘎那所以緊張的地方如果總統就不去了那未來所以不是緊張的關係是其他的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6067.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6078.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
不是就是說現在去的這個時機並不是最妥當的一個時機那不妥當的時機點的原因是什麼呀你剛又說是緊張那我問你說那是不是緊張所以不去你又說不是我沒有說 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6082.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6083.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
請問一下部長就您的了解美國方面對於蔡總統如果登島他們的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6110.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6122.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
是有態度還是沒態度是有認為不妥還是認為尊重我們的決定我沒有去問他們也沒有來告訴我所以這一題我沒有辦法回答那這個美國的副總統賀錦麗他在2022年11月的時候在距離太平島300多公里的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6131.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6153.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
面對大陸跟菲律賓爭議海域的巴拉旺菲律賓海巡艦上發表演講也闡述了美國對菲律賓主張的支持當時南海的氛圍也是相當緊張的但他們對他們的友邦他們有提出了相關的重大演說那為什麼我們會碰到南海情勢緊張就沒有辦法前往了 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6154.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6172.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
跟委員報告一下在2016年的7月19號那時候在國安會有一個國安會因為我那時候是當國安會的秘書長所以我記得非常的清楚那時候我們就做了非常重大的這個宣布就是我們南海的政策是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6174.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6200.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
從那個時候開始我們的南海政策通通沒有改變那有人提起這個問題的時候不管是國際媒體或者是國際訪兵問到我們的南海政策的時候我們都會重新去申訴我們的這個立場那您會不會擔心說因為沒有登島的關係就被外界解讀成那比較偏向因為美國對菲律賓的主張支持那我們不敢去違背美國所以說我們不敢登島我不會去做這個解讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6201.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6219.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我們不會去做指定,但我們也不擔心有人會這麼說,是嗎?我想那個最近是有那個媒體在說明就是說,似乎蔡總統是有受到美方的這個壓力,我在這邊必須要很清楚的說明,就是沒有這個壓力,美國人沒有跟我們談到這個議題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6220.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6248.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
好那但是新聞也有出現說社外人士不具名的我想部長我們也都不知道是誰他說總統登太平島會讓中共得利我對這句話我是打了很大的問號不太清楚為什麼我們的總統去我們的主權的島上是讓中共得利我想問一下部長對於媒體上面所報載社外人士說總統登島會讓中共得利這件事情您認同嗎您的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6249.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6273.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
因為我不知道是誰也不曉得說他的那個思考的邏輯是什麼但是以我的這個角度來看的話就是說現在在南海這個地區緊張情勢是越來越升高是這我們剛剛理解了那以我們的那個整個大的戰略來講就好像我剛剛回答那個陳委員的這個說明的時候我們的大的戰略應該是爭取到更多的國家的支持當然但我們剛剛問的是說中共會因為這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6277.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6277.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6304.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6320.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
就是說委員要去尤其是我們的召委要帶去的話那這個是我們的委員會的這個考量那我們都尊重我們不會反對那但是有關於那個在南海地區我們台灣要扮演的這個角色那倒是有話講 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6321.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6332.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
就是說我們必須要讓我們的有盟國家國際社會看到我們的政策立場是站在和平穩定維護現狀這一邊但應該不會因為東島就導致於說這個國際社會認為是中共得利吧我比較在意這個因為維持和平穩定是我們一直都希望但是如果因為有人我們中華民國的包含是總統或是立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6345.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6372.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
去到太平島會讓中共得利如果這個傳出去那不得了因為我們沒有人想讓中共得利啊所以如果您一句話就是說我們去了太平島會讓中共得利我想我們所有人都不去了但是所以我們希望委員的決定我尊重所以您覺得不會嗎還是只尊重而已委員的決定我尊重有關於那個總統的部分或是整體政府的部分我們必須要去抓因為他只是一個涉外人士而已他講錯那也很正常我們也不知道他是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6372.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6396.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
所以針對類似這樣子的說法我會建議外交部要清楚的予以駁斥否則的話到時候誰去有一天或許我想您也去啊結果您變成中共同路人這也不好吧所以應該是我們的主權我們的人去不管我說了總統去或不去我都尊重因為那是他有可能他整體來說他的情資也不見得一樣的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6397.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6418.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
但是絕對不能讓外界認為說誰去太平島就是誰讓中共得利這應該是錯誤的說法部長您同意嗎我從剛剛那個來委員會之前記者在問我到剛剛有好多個委員在問我我都把我的政策立場說明的非常清楚了接下來想要問一下跟民主基金會有關的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6420.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6445.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
一個獨立運作的基金會要改董監事的席次或是名單是不是應該要開董事會或是臨時董事會來決定這個我問過了有關於那個政黨的這個董事名單民主基金會這邊是接到通知他們就馬上改所以有時間差連席次的部分都改這件事情是誰做的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6446.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6448.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我有問過民主基金會那執行長也在這邊我就請執行長來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6472.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6496.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
說一下到底是誰決定的好不好我已經不想知道這個事情你們覺得誰對誰錯誰去改了這個誰去改了這個這個裡面的席次的跟委員報告我們都是依照組織章程裡面的規定所以組織章程可以隨意的去更改席次5席4席1席4席4席1席這個比例的更動不需要開董事會臨時董事會你想改就改 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6497.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6505.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
組織章程裡面規定我們是依照國會各政黨的席次作為母數然後各政黨的席次請問現在已經是新的國會了按照目前的政黨比例行次我們的比例應該怎麼分配我們是依照52 51 8席來計算計算出來國民黨4席民進黨4席民眾黨1席 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6525.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6527.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那所以現在上面的席次是怎麼算 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6528.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6552.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
就是這樣的計算方法那中間過程改的時候是改成怎麼樣組織章程裡面規定立院有改選你們不是之前有改過改成五席四席一席嗎有沒有這件事在網站上面的時候剛剛部長也有講我們網站也有說明3月6號的時候我們是公文來了以後我們就會上網去更新不是嗎你3月6號的時候上面國民黨是幾個民進黨是幾個民眾黨是幾個嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6555.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6576.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那個是在更新過程中間我們在網站上面有說明很清楚對我問你是幾個你跟我一直講網站更新不好意思主席因為他沒有回答清楚給我再多一分鐘的時間請他把這個事情講清楚好不好就是你3月6號所謂的改的時候你是不是把席次的部分民進黨都用你上面填了五個人然後呢國民黨填了四個人民眾黨是一個人有沒有這件事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6577.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6604.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
當初是因為民進黨的公文還沒有到所以民進黨的名單還沒有更改但是但是我們依照公文來辦事情啊公文寄到了我們就會依照章程來進行更新所以說那後來為什麼又要改掉?3月13號中間發生什麼事?6號到13號之間13號是因為民進黨的公文到了所以我們上網去更新啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6605.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6628.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
所以民進黨的公文到了你才更新但是你們完全不管說現在的國會的席次比例你就按照民進黨給你審問就改什麼國會的席次比例我們在2月6號已經行文各政黨對您剛剛都已經說了按照您現在的比例分配是4比4比1可是你在3月6號的時候網站弄出了一個5比4比1大家爭議的點是這個你們中間沒有開過任何的董事會臨時董事會 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6629.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6647.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我們在2月6號就詢問各政黨把4比4比1的這個席次通知各政黨請各政黨提供推薦董事名單所以3月6號的時候民進黨提供給你幾個名單3月13號提供的所以那中間6號為什麼會改 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6650.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6658.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
6號因為中間有民眾黨他的公文先到我們就上網更新然後國民黨的公文到了我們就更新國民黨的部分最後3月13民進黨的公文到以後我們就更新 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6669.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6680.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
可是你中間你還把羅志正跟魏白骨對調啦那你不是中間說都沒有收到公文我們的網站沒有對調你的另外一張表上面是對調的那你是收到什麼公文去改的那張紙啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6681.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6684.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
主席因為我時間不夠的關係我最後再問一下這個我們什麼時候要進行改選謝謝這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6706.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6725.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
有關於改選的部分其實是要先補選因為董事長那個上一任的董事長那個游錫堃辭職了所以我們現在正在跟那個時間的關係可不可以把時程表稍微跟大家做一個說明我們現在正在討論看什麼時候因為你們現在很久了所以是3月底還是4月初做完什麼時候會進行補選 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6726.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6745.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我們必須要去看未來的董事長就是院長他能夠提供什麼事件給我所以現在目前在跟院長溝通時間那因為有民進黨的立委說未來不一定要依照慣例但是您會按照民進黨立委說吧還是您們會按照原本的慣例還是由董事長由立法院長來出任的這個方向去規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6747.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6747.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
接下來請黃仁委員上台發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6774.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6774.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
有請部長請吳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6783.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6784.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
吳釗燮報告業務概況 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6805.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6824.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
有沒有告訴給國人就是在不予前往的情況之下的離境的一個方向那本席最主要的一個聚焦是在外交部是否在撤僑的一個計畫這個問題你待會再回答對海地 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6826.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6850.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那既然是在警戒的一個階段裡面目前來講我們有22個僑民是在裡面有沒有包含國和會有有那個使領館的人員有大使館的人員有國和會的人員還有當地的那個海外工程公司的人員一共加起來22位22位嘛對不對對好這個撤僑的一個計畫裡面是狀況如何現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6856.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6871.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我們都有在做規劃啦但是現在還不到那個時候這個規劃應該是蠻完整的今天我要講的這個撤僑的計畫裡面是什麼今天海地亨利的總理能夠下台原因就是因為幫派 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6874.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6891.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這個幫派你要曉得喔如果一旦在暴動的時候那個情勢裡面是掌控不出來的喔所以你們應該本來就是應該要開始要做徹橋計畫而且是趕快進行的因為既然已經進入到紅色警戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6892.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6906.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那為什麼到目前來講說還在規劃當中一個幫派能夠在那邊暴動而讓總理下台的這個原因當然多重的原因因為有好幾個7個組織裡面那聽聽你的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6913.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6929.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
非常謝謝委員就是說我們的大使館在那邊對當地的這個情勢是隨時隨地都在掌握那我們大使館所在的這個區域是遠離那個暴亂比較嚴重的這個區域像機場或者是港口這些區域 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6931.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6960.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
所以我們到目前為止雖然說有計畫但是沒有立即執行的這個方向在沒有立即執行的這種討論但是如果說有必要去撤僑的時候我們就會把所以本席建議提示一下那既然在那個地方因為機場也是一個出口的一個地方還有海港也是一個出口的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6960.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6989.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
但是一個一旦幫派進入到現在而且現在可能可能是最大的幫派裡面來取得政權這是第一個那另外一次我們如何因應這樣的一個海地我們是一個邦交國那另外一次據說據聞可能會有斷交的申辯有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6991.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7017.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
有關於斷交這一塊倒是沒有任何的跡象海地目前雖然亂可是我們好幾個跟他們的合作計畫都還在推動當中海地不管是之前的政府或者是接下來可能承擔更重責任的這些政治人物對我們在那邊所提供的這些援助他們都感到非常的感激另外有一些有盟國家跟我們之間的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7019.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7020.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
現在可能會有最大的幫派取得政權,你們如何因應? |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7037.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7062.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我想他們這邊的那個政權的這個轉換可能不是說由幫派這邊來主導而是那個美國等等的這些國家他們透過那個Caricom的這個機制希望能夠協助海地順利度過目前的危機去建立他們未來的這個政府那未來可能進到政府裡面的這些人其實跟我們都有聯繫好 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7063.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7087.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
因為現在我們的邦交國現在是12個邦交國海地是其中一個是沒有錯我們要很珍惜跟海地的邦交當然另外我特別要探討的地方是第一個現在部長有沒有聽過這個原住民的外交知道我當然知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7088.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7094.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我們現在外交竟然只僅剩12個邦交國有沒有可能有沒有可能你們去思考一下我們在聯合國裡面我們是台灣少數民族裡面的一個觀察員的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7119.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7119.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
外交部長吳釗燮報告業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7135.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7155.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這個國家也應該善用我們在國際間少數民族在台灣原住民在台灣能夠連結到我們南島以西的民族拓展我們的邦交也借用我們在國際間在南島以西民族的原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7157.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7178.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
聯結在一起,你們有沒有這個重視?有,委員講得非常好,那其實這個也是我們正在推動的一個政策的方向。那我之前也到那個太平洋的這些友邦去過好幾次,那的確他們也非常重視跟我們台灣的這個淵源,所以這個部分是有關於太平洋的島國。 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7179.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7208.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那但是如果說看看全世界有原住民比較多而且活動力比較強的這些國家比如像澳洲、加拿大、紐西蘭等等的那我們跟他們已經簽了一個協議這個協議就是原住民族經濟的合作協議那也透過這個協議我們能夠跟加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭等等的這些國家能夠更加強有關於原住民這個議題上面的這個合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7209.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7233.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
本來就已經有這個比如說台灣跟紐西蘭本來就有這個經濟協定這個部分那當然除了這個之外我們應該在屬於南島以西的這樣的一個地方比如說南太平洋群島以及印尼馬來西亞群島這個東達南太平洋東部的復活島 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7235.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7257.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
及紐西蘭跟我們的臺灣這樣的一個立場今天原住民的外交議題不是現在的新的議題在2008年前駐斐濟代表有哈尼就已經在擔任過原住民的外交官那我不知道你們現在外交官裡面的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7260.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7278.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
有沒有彰顯它的一個主體性,能夠凸顯太平洋這個區域的政治,有時合作的或是競爭,更展現充滿張力的動態性,請問我們目前駐外的外交官有沒有原住民的代表? |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7280.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7292.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我們應該有但是因為我們就是不分族群所以也沒有去問說這個是不是原住民這個是台灣人這個是哪裡人我們沒有在這樣子問那我請我們的人事處處長是不是簡單的先等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7294.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7312.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我還沒有問人事處長之前我們已經有這個案例剛剛我講的在2008年的時候就有一個斐濟代表就是布農族的尤哈尼尤哈尼也當過我們移民會的主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7313.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7339.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
所以這個就是一個彰顯在國與國之間然後也善用各多元文化的族群尤其我們原住民原住民在整個南島語系的民族這麼多人口數如果加起來是兩億多兩億多的人口為什麼不善用這樣能夠拓展我們的邦交國來人事 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7343.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7354.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
報告委員部裡面我們有7位原住民的擔任我們的外交人員那目前因為目前還沒有當到代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7355.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7371.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那可是假以時日也一定會有一天也能夠當代表那以上是說明不是假以時日好不好管碧玲就在重要的時刻裡面提到原住民的升遷問題這個一直存在的升遷的問題當然我不談這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7374.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7389.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
將來以後會不會有一個這個大使或是代表其實你們好好的從這個角度裡面去做思考委員提出來這個角度很好我們駐外的大使其實也可以政治任命 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7390.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7390.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
台灣是一個多元的文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7420.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7434.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
當然你們現在的執政者對原住民來講從蔡英文上任之後對全世界對國內全國來做一個道歉道歉的之後的 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7436.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7457.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
聯繫的這一些對原住民的議題裡面來講但是並沒有一一的落實我覺得如果道歉之後是展現對於原住民在台灣地位跟他的身份跟他的主人的一個角度也應該加以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7457.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7458.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7478.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7478.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
接下來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7508.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7509.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
沈博洋委員上臺質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7534.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7534.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
委員長吳釗燮報告業務概況 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7548.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7569.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我在這邊也要非常慎重的說委員在之前那個學術上的表現對我們外交部幫助很多謝謝委員今天這個位置我們還盡這個立法委員的職責那想要詢問外交部一些事項那大概有三大問題那第一個問題其實還是跟這一個向來最近這個法律戰有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7570.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7594.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那我先從盤點一下從2012年開始中國開始包圍這個黃岩島那當時有這個協調但是他不尊重這個協調的結果所以呢漸漸的就把它改變這個主權的現狀那現在就是圍在那一邊那2014年的時候又有這一個國際這個仲裁法院那海洋法院都已經說這個九段線有違反這個國際海洋公約 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7595.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7614.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
中國不承認這個裁定的結果所以也導致現在的這些紛爭那2013年這個美國國防部報告也再次提出來就是中國會不斷地用這樣的一些手法去製造新常態或者新的法律的現狀然後不斷地來跟我們argue所以這當然是一個我們現在面臨的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7615.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7640.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
所以這陣子我們稍微盤點了一下那剛好也有很多的學者在盤點這個情勢就是說我們接下來會遇到的狀況大概會有這三個那第一個就是他還是要重新框架這個兩岸的關係這個是自然那第二個應該是部長最熟悉的他會不斷的壓縮我們國際上的空間然後以及利用國際法的這個模糊地帶去破壞我們台灣任何獨立自覺的這種法律基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7642.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7664.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
今天想要問部長的因為第二個跟第三個部分稍微比較遠一點所以想要詢問的是第一個就是重新框架兩岸關係因為現在說真的以中國在世界各國的這個動向以及他在國際組織的這個權力以及他的network來看我們比較懼怕的是說假設今天在台海發生了任何的紛爭或者甚至發生了戰爭那在這樣的一個狀況之下他去發動任何形式的投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7671.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7681.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
臺灣到底是不是中國的一部分以現在國際上的評估來講我們要贏下這個投票應該不是很容易這是可能會面臨的狀況不知道現在部長面對這個未來可能的狀況目前的評估可能解決的方案會是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7690.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7714.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
非常謝謝委員提出來這個問題當然這是一個很好的假設那如果說要讓這個假設成真的話可能必須要有一些條件那我在看來這個條件大概還不到說馬上會成真的這個地步那其實在還沒有去推中國的這些條件之前其實他已經有其他的這個替代的這個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7715.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7730.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
或許也能夠達到它同樣的效果卻能夠做最小的變動那就是聯合國2758號決議案2758號決議案在最近這幾年中國的扭曲的方式已經是超乎我們過去所看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7732.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7758.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
不只是讓聯合國以及聯合國體系去接受2758號決議案中國的這個權勢權勢成為一個中國原則權勢成為台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分而且在很多的這些國際的活動國際的組織或者是涉及到台灣的邦交他都拿2758號決議案來說比如像我們跟諾魯端交他就拿出2758號決議案比如說我們跟中美洲議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7760.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7767.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
退出的時候他也拿2758號決議案也就是說中國有2758號決議案的這個到處的這種衍生的話他已經試著用2758號決議案來框架成台灣是屬於中國內政的這個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7777.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7798.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那他如果說再去推另外一個決議案的話或許會製造更多的這些紛擾那我們現在正在訪的就是說避免中國在運用2758號決議案的時候是無限的擴大那我們也必須要去結合這些有盟的國家來針對中國所採取針對2758號決議案的這些作為予以反制謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7803.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7825.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
謝謝部長那所以綜合剛剛部長的這一個盤點那當然我們知道其實中國要發動我們剛剛講的這種投票他會非常的謹慎他必須要在關鍵的時候才會去做這件事情那在這個之前中國想要去循序漸進去推這個框架2758對他很重要那目前以國際我們的這些朋友來講越來越多的動作大家都在宣稱說這個2758號實質的內容其實跟中國講的是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7829.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7854.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
所以是不是意思就是說外交部會持續的往這個方向來推進畢竟因為這是一個很堅實的一個法律戰沒有錯一點都沒有錯我們也覺得說2758號決議案是一個關鍵那也因為中國成功的在聯合國的這個體系裡面讓聯合國的體系去接受他的這個權勢這個對我們來講是一個很有利的一個狀況很不利的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7855.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7884.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那跟我們很友好的像美國等等的這些國家他們目前也看到了2758號決議案被無限擴大的這個狀況也因此我們在這個部分也有更多的合作那除了跟這些有門國家的這個政府進行探討之外其實也有很多重要的這個NGO那個國際的NGO團體他們也在重視這個議題比如像那個German Marshall Fund他已經出了一篇paper他現在還在寫另外一篇paper |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7885.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7893.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那這所看到的就是要讓國際社會去理解到中國在擴張2758號決議案的時候這個是破壞現狀的一個行為這個是在製造對台灣不利的一個行為也是製造區域緊張的一個行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7902.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7927.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
所以2758可以說是一個前哨戰所以我們要守住2758號的一個權勢權其實是非常重要的那我現在想問的就是因為2758號是目前我們現在面臨的狀況我們必須要去捍衛然後去把這個權勢權掌握在我們跟我們的盟友手上但是接下來是如果發生了爭端之後爭端會有這個國際法院等等之類的也就是事後處理這件事情我剛好看到在1月的時候有提到說我們有可能會加入ICC |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7929.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7940.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
因為除了這一則新聞之外呢並不知道這個後續的狀況是不是可以趁這個時候也跟國人說明一下就是這個國際刑事法院目前推動的這一個狀況是如何還有有沒有可能加入這一方面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7942.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7965.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
跟委員很坦誠的報告就是說這個議題有討論但是我們並沒有一個正面的這個結論也就是說在這個申請的過程當中我們很擔心的就是說這個國際組織他對我們的這個權勢如果對我們更加不利的話那這個會讓我們陷入更多的這個困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7965.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7983.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那所以要去加入這些對我們來講可能很重要的這些國際組織可能最重要的這個關鍵點應該是結合更多的支持我們的這些盟友比如像我們在推世界衛生組織的時候就是越來越多的國家支持我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7984.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7988.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
謝謝我們之後再持續追蹤這件事情還有一個問題就是說因為我們比較常就是剛剛講到的都是跟中國有關的威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8007.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8024.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
今年這個台灣民主實驗室我過往創立的這個組織我們的研究員在這個外交家裡面有寫了一篇文章那這篇文章最主要是在盤點俄羅斯現在在輿論戰場在做的事情那我們就發現我稍微很快速的過去你看這是俄羅斯的這個帳號 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8025.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8027.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
臺灣會進一步的軍事化,開始會有挑釁的行為,等等之類的。接下來這個總共有83萬人訂閱,所以其實是蠻大的一個網紅。 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8046.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8075.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
接下來像這一個他說臺灣發生的戰爭的可能性已經越來越高了這是他們的一個解讀然後以及說其實我們的這個新任的這個即將520就任的總統只有29%的人投給他這其實是一個錯誤的數據這邊已經進入假消息的層次了那最後一個就是他們甚至用了一個金門的一個影片是聯合報裡面的一個影片聯合新聞網那這個影片就是說金門很多人要回來投票結果我們故意不讓他回來投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8076.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8103.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
所以這些其實都是除了有些陰謀論之外不斷的去告訴大家說美國在背後怎麼支持怎麼煽動然後美國才是邪惡的一方然後以及製造假消息這個已經在俄羅斯世界就是傳開了那這個跟我去年在這個基輔看到的現象有一點類似就是說我在基輔的時候看到有很多假消息是在攻擊台灣那是俄羅斯的網軍所為但是因為在基輔只有三個台灣人所以他不可能一個一個回應嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8104.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8130.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
所以簡單來講他們選了一個戰場沒有人回應的戰場那我們就會在那邊會節節敗退倒過來講中國在台灣其實也在做一樣的事情就是中國在台灣很喜歡傳烏克蘭相關的謠言說烏克蘭才是挑釁者美國在後面怎麼資助烏克蘭所以才導致了戰爭的爆發那因為台灣的烏克蘭人也不夠多所以他們也不可能一個一個去回應所以現在我們當然這個以前在民間的想法我們會想到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8130.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8130.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
對於現在這樣的一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8150.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8150.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
非常謝謝委員這個問題的確這個也是一個很好去 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8176.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8195.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
讓我們必須要慎重來思考的一個議題比如說你剛剛講的那個俄羅斯語系的這個地方這個是 inaccessible to us那所以在這種情況之下的話要去detect然後要去針對他們去做澄清那我們可能就力有未待 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8195.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8215.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那畢竟在俄羅斯所控制的這個區域或是俄羅斯的語系裡面可能東歐有很多的國家也接受類似的這個訊息所以對我們來講也是必須要去做的功課啦那委員所提出來的確是我們外交部這邊必須要認真來思考的那我們目前在做的也給委員做一下參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8216.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8240.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我們還沒有走到那個程度但是我們可以從我們現在在做的這個地方來延伸到其他的這個地方就是我們在大選的時候也是受到這些那個選舉的干預那我們覺得說這個議題可能是其他的民主國家也會共同面對的這個議題就是今年會有40個民主選舉可能其他的國家也遭遇類似的這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8241.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8269.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
所以我去結合了我們台灣的這些Civic Society的這些好朋友們讓他們能夠有一些研究的成果然後到美國到加拿大到歐盟他們去做發表去跟其他的重視這個議題的朋友能夠有更多的這種意見交換從這個來互相學習如何來抗衡這個操縱選舉或者是面對那個假訊息攻勢的這個機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8270.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8271.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
主席再給我30秒那可能就不用回應齁我就是快速再問一個問題是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8287.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8299.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
民主基金會有關就是說因為這個國民黨的網站在英文版的部分2020是停止更新但是在民主基金會的這個申請上面在這個2021年還是有申請這個72萬元的一個預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8303.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8327.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
但是我覺得也有可能他們是在更新在我們不知道的地方等等之類的所以是不是到最後可能去看一下這方面的結案報告我覺得不管是他們宣稱的這個英文版跟日文版相關的這個更新那為什麼在2020已經沒有在運作那2021年還有相關的這個補助這應該是跟民主基金會比較有關因為時間的因素可能也比較來不及回應所以這個等到我們之後希望能夠有這方面的一個回報這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8328.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8328.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
麻煩請吳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8356.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8357.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
王委員好部長好部長在這個業務報告這一次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8366.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8376.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我們的巡打其實很有可能因為在去年選前的時候部長已經有特別提到說你在選後就會卸任我們當然不曉得新任的賴總統他到底會怎麼樣安排他的人事運作可是就這個部分因為我們在這麼長的時間以來可能我們外交面臨很多的困境就像部長講的你在3月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8393.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8394.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
臺灣的外交部長不好做 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8409.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8415.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
你說總統大概不喜歡你所以還讓你當那麼久因為是明顯純粹是開玩笑的對1996年以來明選總統以後其實吳部長是擔任外交部長最久的那當然在某些程度上我相信你是開玩笑可能大概那個蔡總統是非常倚重你可是因為我們在這八年裡面我們丟失了十個邦交國 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8437.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8443.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那像這樣子的邦交國一直失去的情況之下我們從22個到現在只剩下12個那現在我們在業務報告裡面其實也沒有看到對於邦交國其實他著墨甚少 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8452.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8468.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
反而是很多其他的國家不管是美國日本還有歐洲還有澳洲等等其實我們好像甚至像捷克這些等等這些國家因為我們在這幾年雖然我們邦交國失去了可是我們的預算我們從222億就是大概2015年左右從每年的222億到現在已經到高達310幾億 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8482.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8494.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
就這樣子的權衡,我們到底獲得了什麼?失去了什麼?這樣是不是有一個平衡的看法?對我們的外交我們到底增加了什麼?因為我們看不出來,現在我們的兩岸關係還有我們的區域緊張的態勢其實越來越升高,因為對於美國或者其他國家來看,他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8507.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8507.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8526.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8540.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
全球高達60%以上所以美國朝野或者其他的國家其實也相對認為我們亞洲現在的和平穩定因為過去就是因為和平穩定所以才可以創造這樣的經濟成長那現在如果亞洲發生什麼樣的一個動盪 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8547.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8570.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
對整體的他們的國家利益來說是殺傷力非常高的所以我想這才是他們最主要的考量當然台海的穩定台灣的安全或者我們的民主發展當然也是他們可能想要守護的可是絕對不是第一所以就這樣的部分我們在越編越多的預算之下可是我們的邦交國一直流失的情況我們有什麼樣的一個平衡權重 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8571.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8595.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
部長是不是比較簡單的方面因為我們看到業務報告裡面沒有看到今年發展的重點而是都是過去的一個成果而已是非常謝謝委員剛剛的這個催訓那如果說要講到這個的話的確是要從我們比較寬廣的這個角度來思考就是中國給我們很大的壓力不管是在軍事上經濟上外交上面等等這個壓力很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8595.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8610.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那在這個壓力龐大之下我們就必須要去做好我們的那個戰略的這個規劃那我們戰略的規劃就是說對於那一些最可能支持我們最重要的這些民主國家當然是我們必須要去交往的這些對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8611.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8636.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那其次也就是邦交國他們是能夠直接在國際組織裡面為我們講話的那我們也要全力去捍衛那另外我們也必須要去開發一些可以幫我們講話可以更加容納我們的這些好朋友比如說中東歐的這些國家所以這個是我們整體的這個戰略的思考也因此如果說看在那個我們雖然說有喪失了幾個邦交國 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8637.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8650.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
可是一般國民對我們在處理外交他們的看法目前仍然保持相當的這個正面的狀況之下我想我們的這個外交的戰略似乎是受到國人的肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8652.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8668.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
部長雖然這樣子的說法四平八穩可是我們的邦交國一直丟失的情況之下我們也很怕他骨牌效應越來越迅速所以其實剛剛我們提到的有很多我們用力很深的這些國家其實他們不管在一些國際組織或者應該有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8673.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8677.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
幫我們爭取或發言的情況之下他們從來沒有幫我們講過話就是在一個正常的國際組織裡面其實他們沒有他們都是在平常的情況之下一直大概在這個部分會支持我們可是在正式的一個場合國際場合裡面從來沒有反而是我們的邦交國可以幫我們提案可以幫我們發言的越來越少了所以就這些部分因為為什麼要特別提到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8701.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8703.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
美國今年他已經又要大選所以當川普總統或拜登他們兩位不管是誰當選尤其是川普因為其實他跟俄羅斯的關係尤其跟普丁的關係其實基本上好像是還不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8721.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8724.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
就他的言論包括他最近接受英國媒體訪問的時候他也宣稱如果北約國家受到攻擊的時候美國會提供援助可是他的前提是這些國家在國防上要支出合理的份額 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8739.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8745.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
甚至他還表示他曾經跟這些應該履行這些財政責任的成員國就北約嘛跟他們表明說如果他們沒有履行足夠的這樣的財務的合理份額的話他會鼓勵俄羅斯攻擊這些國家美國不會協防 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8762.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8784.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
以川普這樣的說法包括過去他在任的時候他就常常退群然後他對我們台灣可能有很多的承諾其實他也不願意履行如果以他商人的性格他再次當選的時候他連北約的國家他都可以他都想要退出或者甚至如果他繳的錢不夠的時候他都鼓勵俄羅斯要去打他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8788.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8802.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
他這種話都講得出來了所以當我們一直認為說美國一定會全力支持我們或可以支援我們到什麼樣的程度的時候我們到底可以有多少信任或者我們可以期待多少這個才是我們擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8804.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8813.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
所以如果美國都這樣子的話那其他的國家就更不用說了因為每一個國家你看他們在跟中國其實都有存在競爭或者也擔心他們的發展會衝擊到他們不管各方面的利益或發展的時候其實他們還會採取對抗的態度可是在對抗當中他們都有不斷不斷的跟他們在某些方面還有合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8831.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8845.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
還有一些溝通的管道反而我們這些已經越來越欠缺當我們一直失去邦交國現在這些國家當他們在考量他們的利益權衡大於我們的利益的時候他可能也會犧牲我們那這個部分我們到時候怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8850.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8865.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
謝謝委員有關於我們跟美國之間的這個關係如果說以美國的國會當作一面鏡子來看的話美國在國會山莊上面對台灣的支持這個是跨黨派的 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8866.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8893.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那其實川普在第一任當總統之前他的這種個性也已經展露無遺的可是當在他那個擔任美國總統的時候我們跟美國之間的關係卻是大幅度改善的四年那我相信未來不管是誰擔任美國的總統我們都有把握能夠跟美國的兩黨依然保持非常密切的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8894.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8906.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那在過去這段時間我們看到我們台灣跟美國之間的這個合作尤其是安全合作的這個加強已經是非常建制化的所以跟美國的關係應該是不會受到政權輪廓的影響這是時間的關係因為我剛剛先覺得條件已經有提到了因為台海的穩定牽涉到美國的整體的利益也牽涉到其他國家的利益所以他們會希望這裡維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8921.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8943.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
在這邊的和平穩定的發展我想這是他們最大的考量尤其美國現在兩黨就是包括他們的國會其實現在也很紛亂像流水一樣現在退出的非常多我相信部長也有注意到這個訊息所以我想這個我們還是不能在業務報告上面我們寫得太好太美好 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8944.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8944.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
臺平島． |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8962.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8978.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我想這個應該由國安單位那邊全盤的來考量就是說總統那邊的每一個動作我們都必須要去思考到是不是符合我們國家最大的利益那當然可能有不同的時間點不同的這個政策的背景的這個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8979.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8983.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
因為以蔡總統來說他已經要卸任了他再不去他也沒有時間去了以他總統的身份所以過去為什麼有兩任總統他們在卸任之前他們都去登島宣誓既然太平島是我們國家的領土 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8994.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9017.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我們要去自己的土地上面為什麼還要看別人的臉色還要擔心別人會不會生氣今天如果南海有什麼樣的動盪或不安其實包括很多的聲索國還包括很多國家跟中國之間他們的利益衝突其實才是南海現在最主要的衝突的原因可是既然大家都說太平島是我們的領土沒有錯的情況之下那我們擔心什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9022.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9025.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
蔡總統去那裡又會有什麼樣的危險呢因為以現在來說大家都希望和平穩定的情況之下他現在去其實是最安全的因為沒有人會動他所以這個部分我想大家在講他的時間點到底是什麼因為說那裡因為有插了我們的國旗那裡有我們的海巡人員在那裡駐守所以其實不去也沒關係那部長還有總統為什麼要 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9049.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9053.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
大老遠的非世界各地然後去我們的外館去跟他們慰勞然後去那裡宣誓因為那我們所有的外館不是也都插了國旗那也都是我們的一些駐外館的代表處都很明確那為什麼我們還去呢其實這一些宣誓的意義它就是代表我們對於我們自己的主權 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9071.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9082.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
是非常在意的所以我們重視的當我們島變焦的時候我們只能抗議然後八年默默的就過去了然後登島其實它就是一個宣示的意義不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9083.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9089.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我相信這個時候沒有什麼中共得利啦每次要講什麼的時候中國的那個議題就來了這個中國可以獲得什麼利益從我們過去兩任的總統他是民進黨民選的總統陳水扁或國民黨的總統馬英九他們兩個去他們讓中共得了什麼利益其實他們反而讓國際社會看到我們捍衛主權的決心所以我不曉得大家的評斷說那裡會有什麼樣的危險因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9113.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9117.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
如果大家不親起戰端我相信蔡總統現在去其實還蠻安全的啦那是不是其他的我們委員會要不要安排我想其實這個都是大家在這個時間點尤其他在紛亂的時候我們都不講話我們都沒有發出聲音人家才會把我們大概都會認為我們都默許了這個才是最危險的時候那另外海地 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9141.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9168.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
有關於這個議題我很簡單的跟那個委員回應一下就是說我們委員會這邊我們造委這邊要做什麼樣的決定那我們就完全尊重那我相信政府的相關部門尤其是國防部那邊都會配合但是太平島是屬於我們的主權範圍這個是我們的內政所以今天早上很多的這些委員朋友在問外交部長有關於太平島的事情的時候都覺得有點怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9169.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9185.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那個是內政的議題而不是外交的這個議題但是如果說要有這種外交的這種牽強的話就是宣示主權那我們可以一而再再而三的來說明太平島就是我們的主權這一點無庸置疑謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9186.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9205.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
今天部長因為如果大家是要去墾丁大概就沒有這種問題啊因為他要去太平島嘛那所以其實還有很多其他的國家是有爭議的所以才會牽扯到這麼多所以我們在這裡也是希望在當大家都已經表態的時候我們當然也要發出自己的聲音還要有捍衛的決心 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9207.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9226.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這是我們在這裡提出來的國家元首本來對這個部分應該要讓大家放心而且也帶領所有的國人捍衛自己的國土尤其部長其實也不是內政或外交的問題因為你比較宏觀你看過世界的大風大浪很多的場面所以在這裡請教你應該也是對的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9228.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9229.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
謝謝王雄金的發言接下來由我們洪森翰委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9267.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9286.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
請吳部長有請部長部長好今天大家都很關心這個太平島的問題不過今天還是想針對其實我們重要的外交政策來跟部長請教下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9290.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9305.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
部長,你知不知道當初為什麼我們台灣也就是在貶政府時代要成立這個,其實我覺得它比較像是一個國家層級的這個民主基金會,當然它是一個民間團體,但是為什麼要成立民主基金會? |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9306.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9325.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
非常謝謝委員問這個問題這個是在2002年的時候我雖然說那時候在擔任那個總統府的那個副秘書長那多少也有參與這些討論那當時是看到我們台灣就是那個我們那個對外宣示就是要民主立國 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9326.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9353.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那要用民主來立國用民主來推動我們外交的話那我們就必須要有一個很好的一個機制那所以那時候就討論像美國的那個民主基金會阿德國的諾曼基金會等等的就是去學習其他國家的經驗在我們台灣也成立一個國家級的這個民主基金會透過民主基金會來跟其他的民主國家來共同推動國際社會的這個民主化 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9354.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9381.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
部長所以看起來在民主基金會裡面除了它也是我們外交政策的重要的一環以外看起來它一個非常非常重要的關鍵是它應該是價值導向的沒有錯也就是我們是把民主自由包括人權等等的價值希望能夠深入的植入我們的外交政策中甚至變成是我們的一個外交戰略所以我們當年成立了民主基金會這樣沒有錯吧對不對沒有錯那部長我想請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9383.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9410.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這個下一張齁這個你知不知道我們在2015年的時候當年的民主基金會我現在在我們的這個民主基金會的年報上面看到這個資料當年其實我們補助了這個所謂中國雅投行與一帶一路的倡議那部長知不知道這件事情我並不知道這件事情因為那個民主基金會它就變成一個獨立運作的一個單位市長知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9413.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9435.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
這是發生在我接執行長之前我知道這個訊息這是2015年的時候的事情部長想請教從現在的角度來看一帶路是民主輸出是中國的民主輸出還是中國的威權輸出比較像是威權輸出 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9436.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9436.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9455.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9470.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
為斯里蘭卡帶來了腐敗跟債務包括一些參與一帶一路的國家尼泊爾徹查他們興建中的這個機場的基礎建設相關的費用的問題再來那我們也看到義大利大概已經說了他要退出一帶一路 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9471.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9497.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
也包括這個肯尼亞這個BBC的新聞其實對於要跟中國合作這一條鐵路其實有非常非常多的猶豫這裡面除了基礎建設本身建設的經費問題以外更大的程度大家意識到其實中國也包括習近平主席是透過一帶一路來把他們的這個威權包括他們正體的影響力希望透過一帶一路在更大幅度的擴散 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9498.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9498.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
委員會議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9504.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9528.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
但我們那個時候在2015年的時候確實是補助了這個一帶一路的倡議當然我現在沒有想要去追究那個時候為什麼發生這件事情但我這邊想問部長喔部長你覺得我們接下來民主基金會的運作民主基金會的資源還適不適合應用在像這種補助一帶一路倡議的這樣相關的活動裡面部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9530.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9547.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
非常謝謝委員剛剛的這個闡述的確是非常發人深省就是我們看到很多的歐洲的國家退出了本來是17加1變成16加1現在已經變成14加1了現在甚至是大家都不開胃了就是因為大家擔心到那個威權的這個擴張的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9549.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9550.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
臺灣的民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9565.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9586.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
自由、人權、法治等等的這個是跟一些有盟國家能夠站在一起能夠結合非常密切關係的一個最重要的根本那我們設立民主基金會的最基本的原因就是要去推動這個所以我是希望說接下來民主基金會我們能夠持續的來推動民主的外交、自由的外交結合更多有盟朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9587.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9608.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
不論我們看到這些過去的當然從2015以前的資料我們其實看到是民主基金會做了或補助了蠻多跟兩岸統合或兩岸互動有關的事情但我要說的一個事情說其實我坦白說我並不反對民主基金會的資源用在所謂的兩岸互動上但我覺得一個重要的前提是我們剛才講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9609.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9633.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
如果這個兩岸互動的活動或者是兩岸互動的這個過程其實是來推進民主化的我覺得我自己我願意支持比方說如果民主基金會的活動是用在發展有助於發展中國的公民社會民主自由蓬勃的發展的我自己支持我覺得這也很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9634.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9661.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
這也是國際很多重要的民主工作非常非常重要的一環也包括有很多的國際組織也都是在看中國的民主化有沒有可能再更進一步當然最近這段這幾年讓大家是很失望的所以我說不是說不能夠用在兩岸的工作上面不是用在互動上不是但前提是他要帶有是推進自由人權民主價值的但我當然現在很懷疑習主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9663.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9687.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
臺灣之間假設他規劃跟臺灣的互動的話他會不會容許我們是來這個活動是來推動中國的民主化的我自己是懷疑這件事情可是我並不反對用在兩岸互動上但前提很清楚他是價值導向的而不是反而是要讓臺灣受制於更多中國的影響力跟控制的尤其是在他當前的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9688.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9711.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
價值觀包括政治價值的這個關鍵裡面這部分我是要跟部長也包括現在執行長在這邊但我們很希望接下來民主基金會的運作能夠堅守價值今天到底是誰當執行長誰當什麼這個事情是另外一回事我們今天不討論這個問題但就經營的方向上很清楚我們看到現在一帶路甚至已經被很多人權的組織已經在批判 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9712.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9713.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
部長接下來我要跟你再請教的問題是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9742.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9765.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
因為這幾次包括去年我也去參加這個杜拜的COP28那我們自己感覺到確實我們在參與這個COP的過程裡面其實受到了來自中國還是有很多的打壓那不然我之前我們有跟經濟部在其他委員會質詢的時候其實有提到我在參與了幾次以後我自己認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9768.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9788.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
進齡轉型或者是氣候變遷的工作部長你覺得有辦法台灣關起門來自己做嗎沒有辦法如果沒有辦法關起門來自己做這是全球的重要的議程可是我自己覺得在這個全球重要的議程上面我們在這上面的國際戰略好像不夠清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9791.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9816.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我們現在可能比較多都是去參與像COP的會議沒有錯可是COP因為有中國的因素也包括他可能是聯合國下面的機制我們的參與相對困難但我認為如果這是一個全球的議程的話他可能不是只是發生在聯合國下的機制而已當然UFCCC很重要我們也希望盡力的能夠實質的參與沒有錯可是我更覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9817.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9836.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我們恐怕是需要來定一個氣候跟近鄰的整體的國際戰略的專案這個戰略的專案裡面可能包括幾件事情也許有很多國際上面重要的近鄰的技術是不是可以更快速的或更敏捷的引入台灣這可能是一個技術方面的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9836.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9860.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
第二個不要忘了我們有很多我們太平洋的友邦其實是在氣候談判裡面非常非常重要被認為是小島國家聯盟當然我們這幾年可能透過國和會有跟他們有一些在條事上面的補助可是我真的覺得我們還可以跟他們在關係上面更加的加深甚至我們在很多氣候談判上面我們也可以支持這些小島國家我們太平洋的友邦國家的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9861.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9876.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
其實我們應該要更深度的跟這些太平洋的友邦小島國家聯盟結合也許可以讓我們在未來的氣候發生上面更具有發言權這也是我們可以在國際戰略的一個部分當然更多現在大家企業很關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9877.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9893.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
國際上要收碳關稅國際要不要碳邊境調整機制這是制度上面國際上面的變革我們也應該掌握得更清楚所以我這邊是想要跟部長談我其實之前也跟經濟部也跟我們的環境部談過了我們其實應該要跟行政院提一個要有一個氣候的 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9895.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9918.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
國際戰略的專案也許裡面包括外交部包括經濟部包括環境部大家從一個國家發展尤其是氣候整體假設這已經牽涉到國家戰略的問題的時候有一個這樣的高度來配置相關的資源而不是只是每年我們大概就花比較多的力氣是在處理每年年底的扣可是當然我們參與這都很辛苦我知道我們很多外交人員包括司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9918.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9947.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
其實在這幾天的過程裡面都非常非常辛苦在做這件事情可是我覺得我們需要一個更高的視野來看待這件事情有這樣的專案搭配其他部會的綜合配合我覺得我們才有可能比較進一步的突破而不一定是在每年在這個COP上面遇到很多的阻礙大家就會非常非常的辛苦反而是應該去開發或者是找到更多聯合國以外的路徑讓我們在氣候跟淨零上面有更多的國際連結跟國際合作的可能這是部長你覺得有沒有機會我贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9948.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9968.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我贊成我這邊如果有機會的話我跟那個行政院那邊建議我覺得這個非常好那我覺得這比較能夠擺脫我們過去幾年其實有的時候參與上面是算挫敗的感受可是這是我們做得到的事情而且我們也有這個基礎我們很希望接下來國會可以跟外交部也包括跟國安單位甚至行政院我們可以一起來針對這個事情來合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9970.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9991.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
負擔我也希望如果你有這個構想的話能不能夠比方說也許一兩個月之間我們可以針對這件事情大家再深入的來交換一下意見怎麼來跟行政院來提出這個事情希望我們今年就有一個比較明顯的改變拉高我們再處理戰略高度好不好我非常的歡迎我也會感到很榮幸來跟委員做這個探討好部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9995.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10002.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
好 謝謝待會陳冠廷委員發言完畢會休息5分鐘我們接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢我們請部長請吳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10029.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10051.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
政委員好部長好那部長我首先先肯定齁其實這幾年齁讓台灣人對外交的想像能夠從邦交國然後擴展到理念相近的國家那特別是一些紐澳啊捷克啊波羅的海的國家我們是非常肯定的有肯定有期許但是當然也會指出一些我們需要改進的方向是謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10052.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10081.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那今年年初我們國家舉辦完民主的大選之後第一時間美國日本英國德國還有澳洲50多個理念相近的國家那透過行政部門或者是國會那表達恭賀美國國務卿布林肯說再一次展現民主制度及選舉程序的實力然後外務大臣日本的外務大臣說未來將與台灣密切合作然後法國國會上下兩院的議員都強調要呼籲國際確保跟台灣的民主還有主權 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10082.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10102.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
這些都是國際社會的肯定那當然我們認同民主成就的展現也是我們深化與理念價值相近國家的基礎但是我們一直強調價值外交的同時我必須要指出回頭看我們的邦交國部長海地是跟我們理念相近的國家嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10103.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10114.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
海地是我們的友邦但是因為目前政治是相當的紛擾那他們也希望能夠接下來進行那個選舉去選出他們的新的政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10115.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10139.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
部長斯瓦帝尼是民主國家嗎?跟我們的理念相近嗎?斯瓦帝尼是一個君主立憲的國家他們的君主的確是他們那個帶領國家的最重要的決策者但是他們也有國會的這個選舉所以他是有他獨特的政治制度我想他們在自由自家跟這些學人的評比都相對的不是不自由就是部分自由所以為什麼我們還要跟他做朋友? |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10141.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10165.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我想這個不只是價值的關係而是說我們台灣跟斯瓦帝尼跟海地已經有非常悠久的邦交關係比如說像斯瓦帝尼跟我們已經有56年的這個邦交關係那個關係是非常的深厚的我們需要這些邦交國在國際的場域像是聯合國大會WHA幫我們發聲他可以讓我們甚至可以因為這樣子能夠去出訪友邦的行程去處理過境外交 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10166.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10190.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
更重要的是這些邦交國的關係存在也彰顯我們是主權獨立的國家所以這層關係不是單純用價值外交可以定義的所以我們如果只用價值外交不斷強調單一的這種方向或者是這種面這種方向來去向外界說明我們的外交的走向的話很容易被中國的敘事框架打擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10191.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10212.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
所以我認為面對地緣政治的挑戰要維持我們的生活方式除了以價值外交為導向的外交我們還要考量國家利益還要考量包含政治經貿包含科技導向要有更全方位的韌性外交這樣子具備的敘事方式才不會被中國的話語權來去限制所以我也希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10213.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10236.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
外交部的同仁未來在跟我們其他的這些同仁來說明台灣的外交走向的時候除了價值外交也必須要跟所有的國人強調說包含科技包含經貿包含產業包含環保的政策等等這樣子的話我們的話語權才能夠被確保那我也不是說價值外交不重要因為我前面開始就強調價值外交的重要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10237.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10256.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
但是我剛剛提到斯瓦帝尼也好海地也好還有包含之前跟我們斷交的這些國家也好他們或許現階段是不民主不自由的但是我們要拿出更積極的做法來去擴大我們的民主軟實力在這一個領域上面我們要領導我們要改變我們要協助我們的邦交國 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10257.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10275.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
所以作為經濟上的中等強權作為經濟學人在2023年的這個民主指數我們全球的評比是第10是亞洲之冠的民主國家我們有領導的責任來協助部分民主或者是不民主的友邦來去轉型因為我們締結邦交的是國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10276.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10294.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
不僅僅是政府所以儘管某些邦交的友邦的那些政體現在是不民主不代表說我們就要跟他不要跟他們有關聯性不對我們要在教育上盡量這些國家的新世代的青年在台學習所以我還是必須肯定包含這些跟我們斷交國家外交部都有積極協處 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10295.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10296.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
外交部部長吳釗燮報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10313.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10322.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
目前媒體上所呈現的洪都拉斯學生,這個就是外交部有在幫他們做努力,有關這方面的確是必須認真思考培養 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10327.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10328.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
這次印度 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10356.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10365.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
在歐美國家不給普丁賀電的時候還是可以祝賀我們跟他的政策基本上是不同的在這一個特別是針對烏克蘭是不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10366.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10393.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
但是基於供應鏈還有一些文化教育貿易地緣政治的種種考量我們跟印度還是有合作空間所以我一直在說我們的敘事權不能夠被單一的定位如果被單一的定位的話我們就必須要每一次都要做出調整那就會被對方說那你為什麼不是依照價值外交因為我們是全面性的任性外交我想這個部分還是要跟部長還有我們其他的外交同仁反映說到印度 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10395.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10412.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這次勞動部長的失言風波在整體規劃中,外交部有沒有跟勞動部好好的溝通?非常謝謝委員提出這個問題,如果說委員看到事後我們外交部和勞動部這邊都有出來對外面做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10412.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10415.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
在3月6號的書面報告外交部的回應的文字大概是兩頁其中一面是封面 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10431.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10449.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我認為說這不是勞動部的責任而已外交部以後相關的特別跟國情相關的必須要跟其他的部門有協同的合作讓這些勞動部長在做出重大決策之前有完整的國情報告跟他們來解釋一下讓他們更理解狀況我們盡量來努力因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10450.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10474.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
第一時間外交部的反應其實是正面的所以我看到許多印度的重要的一些包含社群媒體跟新聞馬上有採取說外交部有提出這一個不同的意見然後來去捍衛印度這些其他的這些人權還有一些相關的這些種族歧視的這些做法是錯誤的所以外交部的反應是快的但是跨部門的處理跟其他部門告知說哪些狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10475.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10475.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10500.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10509.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
我們都不希望看到有斷交的情況出現那不管如何我們知道說中共會打壓的這個前提之下我們還是要相對的應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10510.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10539.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
我想請問部長為什麼每次詢問幫營狀況的時候基本上我們的回應都是說沒有問題但是後來就有呈現出比較不好的走向比如說2018年3月22號外交部在備詢的時候說沒有外交危機可是63天內就斷交了多米尼加布吉納巴索那2023年11月2號那諾魯我們說上任關係會更好可是結果一年15號斷交我的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10540.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10568.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
我們要傳遞給幫交狀況給國人知道我們要知道說我們遇到的挑戰不是我們所想要的但是我們至少可以預警我們至少可以知道說有危機的讓民眾先做好準備讓外交部的所有的聲音是一致的這樣子的話當中共正式斷交的時候我們早就已經做好準備所以我很誠摯的希望部長能夠跟所有這個使館來去跟他們通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10570.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10572.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
非常謝謝委員其實我們在去年已經對外面 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10598.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10627.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
就是已經對那個立法院或者是對社會大眾有改變一些說法就只要有預警的時候那我們都會很坦誠的跟立法院這邊或者是跟社會大眾說明說我們目前是有一些預警的情資那接下來我也會依照委員的這個意思如果說有更多的這個狀況的時候那我們也會對外面來做說明目前那我們希望做12個國家我們都盡量維持我們的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10628.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10646.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
當然是這樣是非常好,然後部長我必須要再強調,其實有很多大使他是在他的任內可能是斷交,可是他把這個狀況延緩很久,所以他其實是有,他其實應該要被獎勵的,因為他把原本可能會被斷交的時程,他延緩了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10646.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10661.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
那有一些是在他的時程內沒有斷交可是他一離開馬上把鍋推給下一個所以獎懲機制內部的考核必須要清晰不然就會變成說要做自己的這個攻擊但是卻把這個爛攤子留給下一任 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10663.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10663.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
斷交的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10679.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10679.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10695.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10696.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
關於學生赴外的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10715.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10733.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那剛才我也肯定部長在宏都拉斯留台學生的態度上那是基於善一個人道精神其實都是替台灣爭取軟實力的基礎那我在想說這些台灣獎學金的受獎學人在台灣是不是有什麼義務規範可不可以讓他們到偏鄉來去做一些相關的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10736.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10749.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
這個我們可以來討論一下但是可以想像得到的就是說那個臺灣獎學金的這些受獎人他們到臺灣來可能他們是希望能夠在一些比較能夠做學術研究的這個種地 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10750.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10769.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那可是如果說到偏鄉去是能夠符合他們的這個研究的需求的話可能我們也會做一些鼓勵我們希望增加這樣的互動來增加我們對友邦的認識跟他們之間的關係那最後我們有外交兼兵親善大使這些附點研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10771.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10788.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
比較起其他印太地區的國家像是澳洲有新可倫波計畫紐西蘭有中立亞洲獎學金計畫這些的學人基本上就是他們連接國外有點像是我們交友會的搭橋計畫那我是認為說以外交部來擔任這樣的發起人 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10788.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10789.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
提供相關的經費,我認為是可以加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10811.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10827.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
臺灣的軟實力跟我們國際對外的連結不知道部長有沒有聽過相關的新可聞波計畫或者是總理亞洲甲學金這個我知道這個我知道但是在我們臺灣的那個practice可能目前來講還會有困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10829.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10829.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
外交部部長吳釗燮報告業務概況． |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10847.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10875.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那教育部這邊提供的獎學金是讓我們的國人去申請的那倒是那個教育部這邊跟外交部這邊的那個未來的那個願景是不是能夠搭配的話這個倒是那個兩個部位要討論那我們外交部這邊去成立一個像Colombo那個Colombo計畫的這個idea的話那我想這個可以來思考那我們跟同仁來討論看是不是能夠成為一個新的一個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10876.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10876.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
多謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10907.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10912.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
好謝謝我們現在休息休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11269.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11270.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
外交部長吳釗燮報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11294.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11294.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
國防委員吳釗燮報告業務概況． |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11323.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11323.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
非常謝謝委員問這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11348.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11365.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
這個問題的那個比較大的框架是這樣子就是說太平洋是我們的主權這個無庸置疑我們不管總統有沒有去我們委員有沒有去這個都是我們的領土而且這個是存在很久的我們的駐軍我們的國旗在那邊已經長久的逝世而且在未來的這個階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11367.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11384.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11384.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11409.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那的確我們台灣如果說被國際社會看起來是一個在維持和平穩定維持現狀的一個成員的話那這個會受到國際的感激那國際社會也會支持我們那但是萬一如果說這個事情沒有處理好被國際社會看起來好像我們在增加已經是很困難的狀況之下增加更多困擾那這個就不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11409.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11413.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這個你這個講法好像我們去了一趟就變travel maker這很奇怪的來來部長啊這個就說想到另外一個比喻了比如說你現在出國 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11426.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11431.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
去訪問外交部長也洗個澡,很辛苦,台海現在打仗了,你說現在台灣打仗很危險了,在你面部啊,我們要回去,這樣會不會通,這樣會不會通,我們的領土,因為大陸,我們不承認它啊,對不對,菲律賓的事情,這個東西,我們的國家的元首蓋一個, |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11453.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11455.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
不管用得上用不上都要回來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11482.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11487.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
不管用的上又不上都要回來啦你這樣 你用講法而已陳水扁馬英九都去啊那時候難道沒有佔領秘部嗎那時候難道沒有美國的壓力嗎簡單來講今天之所以不敢去就是美國的壓力嘛美國就說啊你來啊給回去的給回去的啦沒有沒有沒有美國的壓力美國人沒有來跟我們講我也沒有去問美國人你Google一下馬英九要去的時候美國是極力阻擋啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11511.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11526.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
是喔我不知道我沒有在馬政府裡面服務其實這個來講你Google就可以了不需要在那裡服務喔是喔當然是喔怎麼不是好好都是委員來你如果說假裝我們說什麼中國大陸站一邊有人講說喔這樣跟他站一邊好不好啊那就請賴清德現任副總統總統當選人現任副總統代表總統去這樣可以嗎他去總人家不會認為他跟中國站一邊了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11539.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11541.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
委員的這個說法是很有意思但是我不是在這個事情上面的這個決策者 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11563.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11576.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那我剛剛也在議員說明的時候我已經說太平島是我們的領土所以這個是應該內政的所以你又在問外交部長有關於內政的事情這個我覺得怪怪的沒有啦 因為你說的你今天先主動說的喔你說現在那邊佔領秘部起的執照困難所以我是在講外交的一個國際嘛但是你講太平島是我們的領土防衛啊我們的召委很英明 排5月16號 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11591.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11592.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
尊重尊重委員馬文君主席發言發個邀請案 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11618.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11633.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
如果是時間沒有改變的話那我想委員可以替我思考一下就是那時候的這個外賓會多如牛毛我們外交部是不可能在那個時間點出國或者是說到立島 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11634.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11642.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
5月16號,你說這個,對,5月16號,他這樣5月16號安排去啊,這裡面跟你說外賓,外賓,我們起個車回來啦,一天就回來啊,沒那麼了不起啦,我們有次長、政策常事一堆的,禮賓室一堆的,替你招待外賓沒有問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11653.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11654.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
委員要去我尊重委員要去我尊重我的這個狀況我必須要去思考到我自己本身的這個立場我們在立法院來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11674.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11676.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
太平島是我們的領土範圍 這個應該是內政部的事情 結果你叫外交部長去太平島去考察 這樣不好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11698.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11708.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
奇怪,我們相關的都一樣的,我們都會一起,好多部長一起去,好啦,你不要給我扯這個喔我講的是正確的喔如果你這樣早上都不要講那些話,你說那不是我的事,不是外交部的事,你不要說內政部的事,你說這麼大批,你跟人家說這個啊,你跟人家說這個人家面目瞎的,你不要說這個不然你不要講,對不對,來,我們看喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11725.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11735.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
講一些啊 因為剛才民進黨立委也問你這個問題他講話很客氣 我講話也很客氣啦齁你爛類 你做了六年斷交股 這樣一天要斷交斷交斷交你也這樣啪一片一年你報告 我今天早上很早來那幫你讀了一遍喔 你很認真啦 這啦 那啦齁死給遭到討 然後有一些這個無邦交的實質關係啊這個努力 齁大家看得見 沒關係齁但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11753.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11754.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
我們一樣都是念過博士的應該是很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11782.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11783.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我現在問你喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11799.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11799.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
吳釗燮報告業務概況：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11825.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11837.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
斷交plus1不會你講話講講話講剛剛跟委員報告過的就是說我們目前每一個國家去檢視看起來目前是沒有問題的目前是沒有問題的520之後你會不會續任 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11843.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11865.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
外界說賴清德現在因為他要撇開台獨工作室務實台獨工作室這樣的標籤所以國安團隊基本上盡量是菜歸賴水看起來的話你可能會被留啊如果長官找你你繼續留吧有意願吧繼續做 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11872.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11893.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
內心的話就是我在外交部長的這個任內已經超過6年了那我是蔡總統任命的那依照憲政的慣例就是說當然是蔡總統任命的就是蔡總統卸任的時候我必須要跟他一起卸任那這個是依照憲政的這個精神來走 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11894.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11895.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我現在其實可以 不會反對啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11922.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11939.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
不是這個詮釋這個詮釋就是說如果有需要我在過渡的期間沒有我就跟你講說那個憲政的經濟我隨總統卸任其實啊你有時間快已經到了就是請你長話短說其實我還沒一直覺得說你更適合當國防部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11945.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11947.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
外界都說王毅是戰狼外交部長你同意嗎我覺得他的風格可能有一些是貼近這個但是不完全是 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11971.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11998.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
也有人說你也是戰狼部長你同意嗎 不然就戰貓部長 你是戰貓 戰貓是別人 戰貓是別人部長 我跟你講啦 被端交這麼多國當然是中國大家 沒有人是反對這樣的statement來 我就請問你一個東西 你答從心裡他給我們這麼搞的這麼一把一直讓我們端交 你恨不恨王毅 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12000.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12000.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
吳釗燮報告業務概況 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12030.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12031.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
所以我幫你做一個總結齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12054.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12057.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
你同意或最少部分同意王毅是戰狼外交部長然後呢你自己不是戰狼的外交部長也不是戰貓你同意吧我沒有同意我沒有同意你的說話 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12075.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12083.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
我不同意是吧我沒有同意你的說法所以你不同意我剛剛講我沒有同意你的說法王毅不是戰狼部長所以你在說我我剛剛已經說明了我不要再重複了我要講一個東西就是我要叫部長我知道啦你不能緊張啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12094.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12097.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
WHA 最後一個請你回答一下WHA 今年有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12122.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12122.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12155.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12157.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
謝謝接下來請牛許廷委員上臺質詢好謝謝主席部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12176.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12197.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
委員好部長你好今天跟你討論一個我們最近辦公室遇到一個很奇怪的狀況是這個個案希望可以好好處理這是一個台檢的一樁良緣但是好像變成國安危機了所以借用這個時間來跟部長做一下討論是按照台灣現行的法律如果外國人跟台灣相戀想要在台灣結婚的話要先提供單身證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12198.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12224.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
證明自己在當地是單身然後進行所謂的結婚面談才能辦後續的手續那以這個案例來說是跟柬埔寨人相戀那柬埔寨不鼓勵他們跟外國人同婚移民所以通常柬埔寨不會去提供這個明確的單身證明所以長期以來台檢如果有婚姻的問題都會遇到行政作業上的困難那但是這件事情還是有找到處理的方式因為實務上還是有結婚的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12226.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12242.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
解決方式就是放寬認定就是說我們都希望可以促成良緣希望台灣年輕人可以找到好的歸宿所以說2019年是我們放寬規定說你只要能夠類似提出來可以證明自己是單身的文件或者是有宰名婚姻狀況未婚的文件就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12243.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12262.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那柬埔寨就是所謂的良民證無犯罪紀錄上面會有宅民登記這個婚姻狀況那我們辦公室二月中旬接待了選民的陳情他非常齊全這該有的文件通通都有然後他的配偶未來的準配偶柬埔寨的這個這位柬埔寨的國民他的無犯罪紀錄也就是良民證上面的配偶欄就是空白 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12263.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12282.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
按照過去的慣例基本上這就是而且他的這份文件是有兼補在外交部的蓋章證明所以說基本上這個按照過往大家處理的一個案法辦事的一個流程就會被採認然後趕快促成這一樁的姻緣但是狀況很奇怪啊外交部據這個當事人的陳述啦外交部說這個不認可這份文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12282.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12299.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
那我們當然就問了貴部的意見嘛貴部講說內政部、護政司跟移民署不認同這份文件那我們就開協調會嘛因為看起來兩方說法都不容那2月27號的時候辦公室召開協調會那邀請內政部、護政司、移民署還有這個貴部的領事事務局那就大家就坐下來談一談嘛那 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12300.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12325.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
當天很順利啊因為內政部有出示相關的函文就是說這份函文就是講說按照良民證的方式來處理那外交部的領悟局也在會議中因為我們都在說同意辦理那我們覺得很好啊這順利幫選民完成了一樁心願照理來講應該大家都很高興可是會後這件事情就沒有下文了然後我們去詢問貴部的領悟局又說內政部護政司移民署又有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12326.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12354.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我心裡想說哪有這樣子大家開會講話不算話的所以我們又問了這個內政部內政部說我們沒有意見啊我們完全同意啊那領務局後來又說這個國安單位有意見我只是突然變國安危機啦很奇怪啊那最後我們反覆確認啊我們就見國安單位有意見那我們當然跟國安單位確認嘛國安局講說我們跟我們不會去干涉這個新移民跟外配結婚的問題啊所以也不會也不曾給予相關的建議喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12356.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12377.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
現在羅生們我聽到最誇張的版本是理務局跟我們辦公室的助理講說國安局說因為柬埔寨發生晚安小雞事件所以台柬關係升溫如果開放認定就觸動這個政策所以不建議可是國安局已經否認這件事了那請問現在到底狀況怎麼樣是不是不做一下說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12378.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12384.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
非常謝謝委員提出來這個問題的確這個個案聽起來是我們這邊必須要去檢視說到底發生什麼樣的狀況那我們外交部這邊來解決因為不是我設計的事我請局長好 局長說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12396.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12420.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
謝謝委員 這個我有看到今天的媒體有刊登出來這個個案那2月27號我們已經開過協調會了就是按照協調會的決議來辦理那相關進展我會再跟委員報告但您剛剛提到的那個說後面有局裡面同仁所答覆的那一塊因為那一塊我不清楚的會有這樣的答覆基本上我也澄清一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12421.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12449.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
柬埔寨是不鼓勵他們的國人跟外國人結婚沒有針對台灣那是他的國策對我先澄清這一點第二個這個案子內政部那邊因為他是所謂的要政機關他那邊如果覺得沒有問題應該感覺上是沒有問題應該沒有問題我去協調我去局裡面我們再跟胡志明辦事處協調之後我來跟委員做一個進一步的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12450.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12450.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
政策對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12470.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12470.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
移民的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12491.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12506.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
好 謝謝第二個問題想詢問一下住外租金越來越高外管租金越來越高的問題外交部113年的預算是290億左右比這個112年稍微減少了一部分人員維持費用略增 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12507.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12532.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
外管租金也略增當然這個可能有匯率的問題但因為去年你曾經有講外交部會利用各種方式去節省外管的租金支出舉個例子比如說以義大利代表處的房舍法拍就趕快第二預備金出手買下來以買代租其實是可以省下租金的那照理來講這應該是正常的方向那如果是這樣的方向為什麼最近的租金按照還有上升的情況是不是可以簡單做個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12534.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12557.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
跟委員回報就是說在海外的我們的管處的這個租金是都不斷的在上漲當中那雖然說有一些我們的調節比如像那個駐義大利代表處已經轉換成我們自己的那個財產那但是有關其他的這個管處的這個租金的確是在上升當中而且我們已經預見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12559.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12584.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
預見今年的經費可能不夠來付我們相關的租金所以調漲可能那個幅度還不太夠調漲的幅度還不太夠這我就提醒一下外交部就不要怪我講的既然實際上總體來講租金也許是通貨膨脹也許是其他因素匯率因素都有上升的狀況那這種開記者會宣布節省大筆租金這件事情我覺得能免則免那個是個案嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12584.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12585.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
最後一個事情提醒一下個案當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12611.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12629.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
大家常常在外交部的業務報告裡面討論邦交、斷交等等的問題當然試射我國的外交政策那你決定了就貫徹到底那代價大家就要一起承擔民主就是這麼回事但是我們也是要針對一些這個政策上的執行細節有一些問題要跟這個部長來做討論我舉個例子2023年的3月26號宏都拉斯跟我們斷交 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12635.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12654.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
斷交之後我們辦公室做了一些研究當然斷交就斷交很難過我們盡量外交人員有為有守盡量守這我們都只能盡力而為這我本期願意理解好不好但是斷交完之後的一些後續事務其實我藉這個機會提醒一下外交部注意比如說宏都拉斯這個案子截至目前為止還欠我國4.4億美元的銀行貸款 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12656.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12685.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
銀行貸款那這個我大概理解啦從外交的角度來分析這是用一種變相的方式嘛我沒有辦法直接晶圓嘛晶圓也不太好看對不對所以透過媒合銀行借貸的方式你可以講出來是一種變相的對外發展投資對外發展協助投資的這樣的一種方式來做處理那我就問一下這個個案現在他們有沒有按期繳款有有按期繳款對不對這一筆4.4億美元的大額貸款他有沒有任何的擔保或抵押 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12687.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12689.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
沒關係,可以請相關的人員做說明,清楚就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12690.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12714.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
市政委員報告我們跟邦交國前邦交國在進行這個商務這個貸款的時候陳如剛委員您剛提到的我們都是政府的部分我們是應該說引介邦交國的政府跟我們的這個銀行進行這個商務借貸的方式所以在這個商務契約裡面會講得非常清楚包括說他的爭端解決機制還有他未來如果產生訴訟的時候訴訟管轄權的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12717.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12719.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
所以也是因為這個是一個國際上商業實務的這個借貸的契約所以相關的條文都規範在裡面現在有條文有法源我理解但這個案子有沒有具體的擔保或者是抵押品 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12731.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12760.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
他應該是這樣講首先我要先說這個契約的雙方是我們的銀行以及對方的政府我們不是簽約主體我要先跟委員報告那再來是他這個契約裡面他一定會有一個政府擔保的這個責任所以如果政府沒有擔保的話我們就必須要去如果他到時候沒有完全的複習的時候我們的銀行就會依照他上面的爭端解決機制去要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12761.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12788.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
要求他還要還款另外呢有什麼樣的擔保這本質是做提醒啦因為按照我國目前的外交政策其實大家都會講客觀存在問題是斷交風險很高那當然講政府擔保就斷交之後人家拍拍屁股走人後面衍生的爭端可能會很麻煩我只是要做提醒喔就這一件事情包含前面基於維持邦誼當然會做一些服務嘛或者是一些媒合的東西我要提醒這件事情的風險啦既然有可能有風險的時候那政府要自己擔起責任風險不要外部化 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12788.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12791.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
到目前為止也跟委員說明一下就是說從古早以前斷交之後欠款的只有兩個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12809.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12835.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那這個是很早以前的事情那事後只要政府沒有倒對方的政府沒有沒有垮台沒有倒的話那這個錢都可以透過那個法律或者是說那個既定的這個就提醒風險控管要做好啦好不好那目前如果都有按照的那當然沒有問題好不好那我就提醒外交部做這事謝謝那個這個部分請外交部再提供相關的資訊就是過去跟現在發生沒有有欠款的部分再提供給本委員會好不好還簡單的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12838.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12840.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
主席好有請外交部長請吳部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12864.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12884.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
部長好先跟外交部同仁說聲辛苦了本席有幸參加今年在日本舉辦的APPU感謝有外交部同仁的協助所以讓整個代表團很圓滿達成任務所以也完成了一場成果豐碩的國會外交更爭取明年2025年在台灣舉辦的主辦權 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12888.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12915.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
請問部長你從2018年上任到現在這段期間剛好是美國與中國競爭最激烈的時候我們都知道台灣在國際上的外交處境其實是相當不容易的國旗是外交部在面對中國對台灣國際上的種種的打壓肯定有許多難言之隱在這裡先跟部長及外交同仁說聲辛苦了部長美國是台灣最重要的門友 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12917.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12918.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
是的,沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12924.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12953.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
上週的超級星期二兩黨在初選結束之後確定分別是由川普跟拜登再次對決而且就目前的情勢來看感覺好像是對現任美國總統拜登似乎非常的不利因此川普在七個關鍵搖擺州的民調都是領先的所以看起來好像川普到今年年底贏得美國總統大選的贏面是比較大的所以部長你同意嗎還是你覺得你有不同的意見和看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12955.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12979.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我們對美國的選舉都保持密切的關注但是因為還有7個多月所以入死誰手都還不是很確定尤其是美國的這個選舉的這個制度跟我們的不太一樣所以他們的選舉可能還有一些變數不過委員一開始提到的那個APPU我們覺得很榮幸能夠來協助委員去參加APPU而且成功爭取到明年在台灣的這個主辦權 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12981.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13009.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
那在過去這段時間的確也像委員所說的我們跟美國之間即使在國際的這個紛擾之下我們跟美國的這個關係跟兩黨的關係跟政府行政部門立法部門之間的關係也都有加強那有關於美國的選舉的這個事情的確可能我們台灣的人民會感受到說這個對我們台灣會有所衝擊也一直我們都很小心的在關注不過在這邊也可以跟委員報告就是在過去這段時間我們爭取到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13011.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13015.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
所以部長你現在如果不做預測的話那也沒關係那是不是你認為川普當選還有拜登當選連任會讓美國對台灣的外交政策都會有分別不同的態度呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13041.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13044.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
相對的部長你也知道其實美國人的盟友其實對過去對川普總是以利益優先的商人治國方式是很擔心的這樣你認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13072.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13077.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
謝謝委員提到這個問題其實川普之前就擔任過美國的總統1997年到2021年 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13086.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13101.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那在他的那個總統的任期之內我們看到了我們台灣跟美國之間的關係那個快速發展的那個四年所以他如果說再一次擔任美國總統的話我不預見說我們跟美國的關係會有任何的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13102.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13105.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
川普曾經用筆尖跟桌子的大小來比喻中國跟台灣暗示台灣太小了不值得防禦川普也曾經說過一上任馬上就要結束俄烏戰爭也就是說未來一旦川普當選美國總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13121.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13123.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
外交部是不是自己內部是否做了跟國防部還有相關的國安單位偵測可能發生的狀況做政經兵推了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13147.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13171.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
謝謝委員提出這個問題我是不擔心這個狀況最主要的原因就是說在川普的第一次擔任總統的這段時間之內我在國安會擔任秘書長也在總統府擔任過秘書長後來也到外交部來我們所觀察到的就是說川普的政府不是只有川普一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13171.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13197.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
他還有副總統還有國務卿還有國安顧問國防部長等等的那我們所有的這些人都對台灣都非常的支持那也因此會造成一個說過去在川普執政之下這4年我們台灣跟美國的關係是有大幅的進展真的是進展到以現在的這個角度來看的話還是覺得說那時候的進展真的是很快速啦所以在未來我覺得是不用擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13198.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13206.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
本席再次提醒部長一定要提早開始做好準備接下來本席要提到臺灣與中國兩岸關係與外交關係這種特殊的關係部長請問一下你記不記得兩個禮拜之前國防部長在本院備詢的時候也被問到兩岸的情勢看法回答說兩岸關係其實是很嚴峻的還擔心到睡不著 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13220.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13222.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
但同樣的問題去問了國安局長他就說沒有任何情質顯示台海緊張的情勢有持續升高所以大家不用太緊張那請問吳部長你身為外交部長應該很清楚現在知道我們跟兩岸的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13236.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13238.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
委員昨晚沒有問我說晚上睡得著睡不著請問你會不會擔心呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13266.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13292.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
其實如果委員問我的話我是有長期失眠的這個問題所以我晚上睡不著不是因為兩岸緊張的這個關係那可能就要吃藥了這樣但是也不能夠長期仰賴藥物我想委員知道的非常的清楚那有關於兩岸的這個部分的確我們所觀察到的就是說在那個灰色地帶他們是不斷的往前推進那到目前為止所有中國在做的都是在那個戰爭的門檻之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13294.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13318.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
所以其實是比較不用我們擔心或者是說不用去顧慮到說馬上就會面臨戰爭的這個風險那但是的確中國是不斷的在緊逼不只是在兩岸的周邊的就是在台灣周邊的這個灰色地帶甚至是經濟的壓迫外交的壓迫或者是說對我們台灣的這個混合戰等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13318.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13346.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
那這些都不斷的在加強當中那這個是涉及到我們台灣未來長期的這個生存那所以我們對這個事情也必須要很嚴肅的去面對那要面對的一個狀況如果說問到外交部來的話我們外交部就是一個答案就是必須要去結交更多的朋友來支持我們那過去這段時間可能大家也都感受到了國際社會上面支持我們台灣的聲音是越來越大越來越響亮那這個是我們外交部的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13347.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13366.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
好那現在還有另外一個問題就是根據宏都拉斯財政部公布的財政統計截至2023年底宏都拉斯對台灣的債務還欠了4.4億美元然後宏國跟台灣已經斷交了11個月那對外仍然欠了4億美元的債務這樣主要的話就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13367.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13371.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
用在社宅建設還有學校的基礎的設施還有營養午餐計劃等項目因此他向臺灣融資那可是不過外交部當時有曾經說明說紅國向我國的貸款案均正常的在還款並沒有違約的情形假如這個日後有違約的情勢我國銀行也會依照商業貸款的實務循國際司法途徑進行追查那請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13396.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13418.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
洪都拉斯的確是有一些獎學金的計畫讓他們海外的學生可以受到政府的支持但是看來這個獎學金的計畫目前是沒有在推動當中也因此有很多海外的學生包括他們還在台灣的這些學生是沒有辦法接受到他們政府的這個資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13419.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13438.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
所以這筆獎學金據說好像都沒有準時匯入賬戶請問部長是不是有這回事?的確這個是我們所觀察到的現象那也因為他們在臺灣念書所以我們臺灣政府對於留在臺灣念書的這些人也必須要去展現一些那個愛心那所以我們的這個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13439.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13443.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
但是基於人道和人權卻還要再協助支付他們在台留學生的費用嗎?還是是有機會繼續維護外交呢?還是根本就是繼續被當愷子呢?洪都拉斯還欠台灣138億要如何追討呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13463.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13479.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我想這個不是愷字啦就是說他們欠我們的錢就依照那個國際商業貸款的這個方式他們如果說本席在還的這個過程當中一切都正常的話我們就依照他們的當時的貸款的這個條件繼續還 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13481.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13481.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
外交部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13499.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13517.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
在當時簽約建交的這些項目包括提供台灣獎學金如果說這個基礎沒有的話那由政府這邊來支出他們的獎學金可能有所不妥因為這個違背到我們的當時的那個一些契約那但是只要是人在台灣的這些學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13518.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13538.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
那我想我們政府應該有這個義務來協助他們讓他們覺得說我們台灣的政府是有這個溫暖的跟中國政府不一樣的地方就是說那個中國的政府可能也不管他們的那宏都拉斯的那個跟中國建交了中國政府也不會去管他們這一塊但是我們台灣還繼續在照顧這些學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13540.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13540.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我贊成這種說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13570.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13597.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
既然部長同意那就請外交部要好好的繼續協助這些願意留在臺灣就學的無辜的紅國的留學生不要因為兩國的關係生變就影響到這些學生的學習和生活是那部長還有一個問題就是海地最近幾個月的動亂外交部應該有密切的關注吧有我們非常密切的關注每天都跟我們的住管有在聯繫看當地新的這些狀況好 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13599.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13614.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
海地總理亨利上週已經請辭了雖然現在當地的警察正在努力跟黑幫作戰但是政府基本上已經失去對國家的管理能力了海地基本上已經是非常混亂的無政府的狀況那連美國國務院也承認情況混亂到他們沒有辦法判斷海地的政治情勢部長認為我們的使館人員跟僑胞待在那邊現在是安全的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13626.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13635.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
目前沒有問題因為那個海地其實那個地方很大了那請問部長我們現在海地的使館人員還有臺商還有僑民總共有多少人22個人還好人數不算多但由於海地政治的動亂繼續擴大所以目前美國加拿大德國那邊已經撤離使館人員了 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13648.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13670.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
我再說明一下就是他們撤離是所謂的non-essential就是有些那個眷屬或者是說沒有必要繼續留在那邊的人但是大部分的使館人員都還留著好所以我想請問部長就外交部有沒有想要撤僑計畫呢把我們那些外交部人員和僑胞接回來呢我們有規劃但是還不到那個地步 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13671.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13672.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
接下來請李坤城委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13702.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13703.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
主席好那我們請吳部長請吳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13711.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13716.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
今天3月20號距離5月20號賴清德還有我們蕭北琴總統副總統就職還有兩個月那想請教一下部長因為在2016年的時候當時候這個蔡英文總統就職的時候有來了10個我們的邦交國來到台灣當然有很多的這個友好國家的政要國會議員都有來到那2020年是剛好遇到了這一個疫情那所以我們這個5月20日就職就一切重建 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13740.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13747.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
那在兩個月之後的520,2024我們的賴清德總統要就職那請問一下外交部現在準備情況怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13748.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13776.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
非常謝謝委員我們每一個邦交國我們都想辦法去邀請那到目前為止回覆都非常的熱烈那有些元首他們沒有辦法親自來的比如說有其他的這個藥物或者是說有些其他的出國的計畫那他們也都會派非常高層的那個代表團來那目前大概邦交國的元首或是代表大概會來多少我們還在做最後的統計當中但是會有很多的這些國家的元首來 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13777.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13802.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
除了我們邦交國之外我們的友好的國家美日歐洲這些友好的國家很多人想要來很多人想要來大概有多少人這個520就是預估大概有多少人會來因為現在應該開始在籌備了吧有在籌備而且我們也陸續接到那個request想要來所以現在還沒有辦法去估計說一個固定的數目但是兩三百人應該是跑不掉好 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13803.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13823.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
希望當天就職一切順利但是我們也擔心在520之前中國會不會有一些外交上面的一些施壓就像在1月份的時候把諾魯就拿走了部長這邊有沒有感受到520之前中國有對我們的邦交國施加壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13825.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13842.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
這個我們隨時都在關注當中那其實中國對我們外交部的這個壓力或是對我們外交的這個整體的壓力一直都在而且一直都很強那我們也都隨時隨地必須要去面對這些壓力那譬如說在各式各樣的這個國際的場合 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13844.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13861.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
中國的這個打壓是有過於以往所以這個是我們所感受到的那我們必須要很認真的去面對那個中國對我們的壓力但是在壓力之下我們也必須要去思考說如何去拓展更多的這個外交的這個道路 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13861.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13884.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
那在過去這段時間,我相信委員我怎麼了解,就是說,我們到一些沒有報告但是民主很重要的國家的關係一直提升,那這個就是我們外交部所打出來的一個成果那當然是說,會不會中國又在520之前,這個把壓力壓到最大,那會不會就是說,在邦交國這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13885.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13885.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
外交部長吳釗燮報告業務概況：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13912.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13928.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
那要不是這個捷克的這個參議院議長韋德齊他把這個照片PO出來其實我相信這個很多人也還不知道說這個我們這個蕭敏琴副總統當選人人是在捷克那當然我不知道他哪時候回來那我也不會去問因為這是他私人的行程 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13929.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13958.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那我只是請教一下這一個部長去歐洲就不是私人行程到美國是私人行程到歐洲是因為有歐洲的智庫很重要的智庫邀請他到歐洲去演講那到歐洲就只有這個公開的行程就是接下來還有那個去會見一些歐洲的這些好朋友那目前我們還沒有準備好要跟外面來做說明但是時間到了我們會對外面來做說明時間到了再做說明就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13958.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13958.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
再請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13984.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14006.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我不曉得為什麼這兩天這個太平島會成為一個熱門的一個話題那剛剛我看部長有回答這一個委員在詢問就是說如果這時候這個國家援手去時機不是很好但是我發現說這個包含我們的召委這個要率團要到這個太平島去那立法委員去520之前去時機點好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14010.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14034.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
我想必須要做這樣的區別就是說我們的委員並不是說那個就是代表政府那我們的委員是代表很多的這些選民那如果說委員決定在什麼時間點要去哪裡做考察的話那對於委員的這些決定我們通通都予以尊重尊重當然那有沒有可以給一些專業上的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14036.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14040.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
現在南海緊張的情勢是怎樣?會不會對外交造成一些困擾?部長可以給予專業上的建議嗎?剛剛都有委員在問我,我也有說明一下目前南海的情勢的確是很緊張 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14057.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14073.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
那如果說那個委員剛剛沒有注意到那個我剛剛在答詢的過程當中有提到的就以我們太平島的這個地點來看的話離我們太平島沒有多遠大概是五六十公里的那個五六十海里的這個範圍之內就有中國的三個島礁 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14077.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14077.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14094.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14095.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
中國每天都有20多艘軍艦在南海巡邏 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14120.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14148.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
那他們也有那個空軍駐紮在南海的這個島上面人工島上面那他們的海巡他們的那個海上民兵數量也都非常的龐大那中國透過這些方式來擴大他對於南海的這個主權的聲索那這個緊張的情況之下的話那我們要去做任何跟南海有關的事情我們就必須要非常的小心那這個是我對於這個事情的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14149.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14172.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
這也是為什麼美國國務卿布林肯要特別跟菲律賓的總統小馬克思要見面這就是南海情勢的緊張那我這樣聽部長這樣講或許在520之前立委要去也不是一個好的時機點因為我們要當然你要遵守立委啦立委要去哪裡你也管不到管不到立委要去哪裡只是說我是 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14173.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14196.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
請外交部部長提供一些外交專業上的意見去當然形式上是要宣示台灣的主權台灣的主權我們在太平洋上面有國旗有我們的海巡人員有我們的國軍它就是屬於中華民國的領土這個沒有什麼爭議性那如果說在這個時間點上面特別要去其實我也可以建議這個召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14197.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14197.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14218.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14218.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
接下來請邱志偉委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14259.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14260.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14281.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14305.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
不是簡單的這個選擇體它是個深論體很多實際上的操作不是那麼的簡單是非常複雜是你要去必須要經過其他國家的領海跟領空對不對對沒有錯我們去不可能民航機嘛絕世是運輸機就是軍機啦西郊山洞要飛程多久4個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14308.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14330.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
經過很複雜的這個南海的區域第一個安全問題很重要縱使這個太平島是我國的這個領土這無庸置疑嘛我們所圖有責我們有海巡署的官兵在那邊駐紮那我們現在要去慰問他們海巡署署長或者是海委會主委有這個責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14332.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14355.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
可是要牽涉到安全問題現在南海局勢跟8年前我擔任這個外交國防委員會召委的時候那時候陪同我去當然不是部長陪同我去是國防部部長即便當時7、8年前還是這個非常緊張部長也緊張國防部也緊張但是已經排進這個行程已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14357.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14376.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
就去還好這個平安的這個達成這個這個考察的業務那我當召委你知道參加了多少人就我盡量為什麼不去大家去思考一下為什麼不去大家有沒有做過713動我做過 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14379.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14407.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
好坐嗎很不舒服連廁所都沒有很不舒服很不舒服而且我們那時候還沒有配戴耳機而且它還不能武裝其他那是單純的運輸機在飛行途中遇到任何問題我們如何應變我們戰機可以護航嗎沒有辦法那如果國家元首如果貿然前往的話那國家元首的安全如何去確保大家去思考這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14409.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14412.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
蔡總統即將卸任,總統卸任之前有沒有再出訪計畫?目前沒有這樣的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14430.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14449.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
如果有啊 我覺得這發揮一些這個外交創意這個過境外交是一個常態對不對我是有提到過每次過境都是美國 不是美都是美西為什麼不從 過境從歐洲飛去這個中南美洲現在台歐關係不是非常好嗎如果我們這個經過捷克來這個過境 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14457.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14467.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
這也是一個創意如果假設總統先前要去出訪的話轉機外交、過境外交可以發揮一些創意不見得要從美國去另外歐洲關係史上最好黃市長您在立法院辛苦了一下悍馬功勞 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14483.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14509.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
當然這個波海三國我們最早在Riga在這個拉脫維亞這個大概有將近20年了那埃斯多尼亞的部分呢在他令這個我們我覺得啦埃斯多尼亞是我們未來設出的一個目標點我們也投入很多能力然後我們這個能力然後這個我覺得這個雙方的也有在產業上互補性 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14510.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14538.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
你有沒有看到他靠近北歐嗎?這部分有沒有積極在促成台灣跟愛沙尼亞互設管束?我們目前有收到非常多朋友的邀請但是我們還在溝通跟評估當中你要有這個計畫要有這個目標朝這個計畫目標去執行你們要短中長期的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14540 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14567.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
我問你 你說有很多朋友要找你參訪 這個跟我的問題沒有關係嘛 對不對所以你要設定目標的時候 你要全力去達成所以除了愛沙尼瓦之外 你說這個巴尬半島巴尬半島再往上一點 這個保羅 保加利亞 這個羅馬尼亞跟過去他們的這個國家的性質不太一樣這個俄武戰爭之後 他們不是那麼支持這個俄羅斯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14568.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14592.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
所以你在東歐的保加利亞羅馬尼亞甚至波斯尼亞這個甚至這個塞爾維亞可能比較困難那個阿爾吉利亞阿爾巴尼亞可能有點困難北馬也有可能克萊西亞也可以斯羅維尼亞也可以這些國家你要去利用台灣關係最好的時候去慢慢去突破 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14596.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14614.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
所以這部分這個歐洲是在把握黃金時間重要的這個臺歐關係史上最好的時間你要突破 突破 再突破我覺得以內能力絕對可以達成你現在設定前的目標如果緊尼我要在哪些國家能夠達成設處 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14618.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14618.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14648.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14648.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
玻利歐 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14674.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14676.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
新南向政策裏面也沒有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14705.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14705.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
另外,非洲是有來嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14734.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14759.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
亞非斯亞非斯這個我們在非洲經過我是在非洲有設服務處的這個南非我們有兩個點對不對在Pretoria跟那個Captain這個在東非我們有這個索馬利蘭在西非應該在加布斯吧奈及利亞跟象牙海岸奈及利亞首都還是加布斯Lagos |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14760.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14764.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
北非未來有沒有可能?中非有沒有可能?這是你的回答?當然要努力啊!我說你有沒有未來計畫?我問你說在北非有沒有可能性? |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14785.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14808.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
有,其實非洲我們都一直在努力啦吼那雖然說現在還沒有成果來跟國人報告來跟立法院報告但是這個努力的這個方向一直都沒有改變比如說北部的非洲、中部的非洲你要有一個目標國我知道我知道你歐洲是要哪些目標國你非洲是、亞非是要到底哪些目標國跟台灣比較友好我知道慢慢一點一點去突破我知道然後疊累積層面 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14810.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14835.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
我知道但是在立法院以後還沒有成熟的我就就讓我不要講這樣子你們實際在努力主席在30秒CPTPP11加1這個11加1我們都有住管對不對11加1這12個國家都有住處對不對有沒有都有設經貿組大部分都有那個每個都有問來有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14842.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14867.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
陸會關鍵時刻就是在這兩年現在是加拿大明年是澳洲相對對台灣比較友好所以這一些領袖國當他們當輪值主席的時候我們希望能夠趕快突破成為會員國所以你在這11加1包括英國原始創始會員國加上英國都要在住處裡面成立一個工作小組全力去推動CPTPP |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14868.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14877.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
國會再協助所以這部分我希望部長能夠責成這11加1的住外管束成立這個加入CPP的工作小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14877.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14877.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14904.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14907.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
接下來請謝依鳳委員上台質詢謝依鳳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14928.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14949.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
邱委員好部長好剛才你提到了我們這一次的新總統的上任有竭力的請方交國其實我要提醒你你之前有說過方交國的數量不是很重要友好國家比較重要那友好國家到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14950.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14952.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
你覺得現在去太平島比較好還是等到新總統上任以後去太平島比較好? |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14972.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14992.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
我是覺得這個事情就很坦誠的跟委員報告就是這個事情我們必須要去思考到整體的那個情勢所以我們在從事這個比較重要的這個工作之前一定要去理解到底符合不符合我們的國家利益這樣子你是想說未來不是你的事情所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14994.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15017.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
你當然是期待新總統去不會變成你的hot potato但是我們必須要考量到底是誰去比較好當然新總統的兩岸的政策以及在台獨的立場那對於國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15018.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15047.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
目前的處境以及未來的險境那這都是國民其實都非常希望了解的那當然了還有未來的新總統到底要怎麼樣子遵循過去以來我們國家所所長期經營的外交的政策那你覺得他的挑戰在哪裡我本來這一題是要問你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15048.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15073.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
反正我們倆是鄉親對不對所以你認為新總統的挑戰在哪裡我認為這個未來的國家的外交的處境挑戰是非常大的那未來的挑戰在哪裡所以委員是要我用彰化人的立場來回答這件事情是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15074.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15102.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
開玩笑開玩笑的確委員問的這個問題是非常好那我因為那個賴總統當選人他還沒有就任所以我也沒有辦法去為未來去多做什麼但是從客觀的形式來說的話中國對我們的這個壓力一直都在而且可以預期得到就是說在未來新的總統上任之後中國的壓力也會在那在面對這個形式的時候我們台灣的相關的部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15103.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15128.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
不只是外交部甚至是其他的那個國安單位心中必須要去思考的就是說如何來預防中國對我們越來越多的這個壓力那如果說要預防的話那當然是要去結合更多的這些盟友比如像美國加拿大英國等等的這些友好的國家他們願意多多來支持我們台灣的話那我想這個對於未來的這個情勢是有幫助的 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15131.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15150.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
對,而且我認為剛才前面幾位委員就是他們對於總統去太平島對於不管是在舒適上面在我認為啦從過去以來其實都有國家元首上太平島的先例喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15151.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15175.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
我認為身為國家元首也不會只圖自己就是說有沒有舒適或者是安不安全而是應該要整體的考量就是到底在這個時間點去好還是未來去好當然以部長的立場當然希望未來去那但是以張化仁的立場講 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15176.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15198.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
沒有沒有一部長的立場張化緣的立場不是這樣的張化緣的立場是國家的立場但是我覺得這個東西必須要我們為國家長期以及為了未來新總統如果有必要的話他是要延續的話那怎麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15200.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15224.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
就是說我的主張就是維持現狀嗎?怎麼樣子就是遵照所有台灣人民目前的大部分的民調或者是大家心裡面想的還是維持現狀當然大家對於現狀的定義有不同的看法但是在這個立場的前提下然後再有就是和平嘛和平是 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15225.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15234.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
目前世界對於台海的問題最大的公約數在這個前提下我們怎麼樣子規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15237.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15263.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
我認為不管是對於台灣未來的溝通也好面對大陸的壓力也好我相信即便你要卸任了你也應該要規劃出一條比較適合我們目前外交處境的路那當然就如同前面幾位委員講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15264.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15269.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
這也是一個,就是說一個creative的一個我們的strategy嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15269.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15273.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
是不是?我覺得是可以去就這個部分做思考的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15290.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15309.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
以女性的元首來說,有時候我們可以more softly,不用這麼硬,也許會更有彈性,就如同現在我們也有即將上任的副元首到歐洲訪問等等的,那未來有相關的規劃嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15311.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15324.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
非常謝謝委員有關於這個部分的話就是說能夠說的我就盡量說啦那有一些還不適合對外面來講的部分也容許我就暫時先保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15324.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15343.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
那在過去這段時間我們的確跟歐洲的這個關係有很多的這些進展比如說我們中華民國的外交部長有很多的地方是沒有辦法去的可是歐洲有很多的國家他們不只歡迎我去而且歡迎我能夠公開的這個演講就可以看到說我們跟歐洲國家的那個關係的進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15344.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15358.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
那這個的確也在過去這幾年讓我們的國人看到了就是說我們除了美國日本之外的確是還有很多的這個地方值得我們來開拓那我們也開拓了一條道路那最近 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15360.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15387.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
這幾天邀副總統當選人在歐洲的這個訪問也讓我們看到的說的確這個不是只有那個外交部長可以過去甚至是副總統當選人也有機會到那邊去那也有機會為我們跟歐洲之間的這個關係能夠加強那所以這個部分是會持續的來推動那我想這個對於下一任的外交部長不管什麼時候我卸任對於下一任的外交部長這個就等於是一個新的基礎讓他們能夠繼續的往外開拓 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15390.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15411.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
當然了,我們剛還提到另外一項就是新南向那我也觀察到就是新南向國家的經濟的就是GDP的成長在今年度都會遠遠超過於就是北亞的地區像日本、韓國,他們可能都是45%以上的成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15412.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15435.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
我認為我們跟新南向的合作國家的合作不應該僅止於就是還是在那個形以如一的這個就是一些就是外交的活動上面而是應該對於經貿或者是雙邊的貿易的合作應該要更加的深化 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15436.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15453.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
這也是我常遇到新南向國家相關的他們的就是說代表他們認為我們應該要深化怎麼樣子從教育怎麼樣子從經貿合作這個我認為這也是未來的方向對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15454.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15474.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
我非常贊成,絕對是這樣子的,那如果說看看我們台灣跟菲律賓、越南、印尼等等的國家,馬來西亞等等的經貿的發展,甚至是印度,這些經貿發展的話,大家可以想像得到我們華人國的功夫。對,我們今年的經濟成長是跟這些國家是並駕齊驅的,反而是 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15475.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15499.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
日本韓國他們是往下降的那未來怎麼樣子就是藉由這樣子合作深化我們的經濟成長然後以及深化台灣的台商在這個這些東南亞國家的相關的發展我認為對於也許就是說未來台灣的這個經濟發展也會有相關的就是幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15501.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15519.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
會,而且既然這個方向已經看到了一些成果,那我們會持續的來走。剛剛委員也有提到就是說有一些人員的交流。其實行政院這邊也有一個比較屬於跨部門的討論,就是能夠吸引更多的新南向政策國家的學生到台灣來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15520.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15520.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15540.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15544.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
蘇清泉委員 游浩委員 徐欣穎委員 莊瑞雄委員 吳思瑤委員 王宏威委員 鄭天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15564.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15588.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
我們今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有翁曉琳委員、王洪威委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位已書面於兩週內提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15591.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15593.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
本日會議到此結束 散會謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15615.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15620.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
法定人數不足 |