| IVOD_ID |
15742 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15742 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-15-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-20T08:31:22+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-20T13:31:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:59:38 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea8729a3a0ba87e8cc4f7cda26dcb539f83be8d109af184be4b5cd1376ca424f3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長及國土管理署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員就「國土計畫推動辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:22 - 13:31:00 |
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好我們繼續開會進行本日的報告事項請宣讀邀請內政部部長及國土管理署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員就國土計畫推動辦理情形進行專題報告．並備質詢。宣讀完畢好我現在介紹一下在場的委員我們在場的委員有美會國主委員再來黃婕委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1775.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1800.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
介紹一下今天出席的我們各部會的首長來內政部的部長林佑昌部長國土管理署的署長吳興修署長國土計畫組的組長蘇崇哲檢任政工程師蔡玉滿謝謝科長蔡益昌 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1803.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1831.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
原住民族委員會政務副主任委員古仲格勒凡岸古仲格勒凡岸是我們布農族的族人所以他的名字希望大家也記得一下我們通常都叫他古仲副主委謝謝對土地管理處的處長杜章梅莊好我們現在進行報告請內政部林佑昌部長報告部長您大概需要幾分鐘的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1834.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1839.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
好那我們就給這個部長5分鐘然後也請原民會也一樣5分鐘好不好謝謝有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1846.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1867.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
主席、各位委員、先生、女士、各單位代表大家好首先感謝各位委員對國土計畫的關注和指導今天召開會議討論國土計畫推動辦理情形本部應邀來進行報告備詢在此將本部的意見二要說明如下請請各位委員參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1868.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1893.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
首先是國土計畫法的修立法的過程那國土計畫法在104年經過大院三讀通過之後總統在105年1月6日公布那在105年5月1日起來施行那後續因為行政院在107年合定全國國土計畫的指示為了給地方政府合理的作業期程所以本部啟動修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1894.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1918.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
修正條文在109年的4月21日由總統公布來施行目前國土計畫法法定工作辦理情形的狀況如下各級的國土計畫部分本部跟各級縣市政府已經在107年以及110年來公告實施全國國土計畫以及各該直轄市縣市的國土計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1919.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1944.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
但依照國土計畫法的規定各地方政府應在114年4月30日前製作國土功能分區圖並依法公告目前各地方政府正在辦理國土功能分區圖的繪製還有審議的作業本部已經透過補助經費、研理作業手冊、成立輔導團以及召開研商會議等等的方式來最終辦理並且解決各項務實劃設的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1948.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1966.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
其中蓮江縣、金門縣還有花蓮縣目前已經把國土功能分區圖的草案含送本部．區域各縣市也將在完成審議作業後含報本部來審議此外國土計畫法相關執法共有23項．本部已發布了14項．其餘的9項預定在113年底前完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1971.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1995.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
而針對各界關心原住民族土地規劃的部分本部將以擬定原住民族土地使用管制規則、畫色國土功能分區以及辦理鄉村地區整體規劃等多元的工具來分階段解決原住民族土地使用的問題其中為了應用原住民族特殊傳統文化的習慣還有土地使用的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1995.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2011.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
本部在原住民族土地使用管制規則草案中以及納入原住民族土地範圍內在105年5月1日前既有建物的輔導機制並且持續輔導地方政府辦理鄉村地區的整體規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2013.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2038.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
在近年來國土計畫推動的一個過程裡面有幾個部分由地方政府來回饋那我們也從三個面向來逐步解決現行非都市土地發展的課題首先第一個是進進空間規劃的工具包括各級國土計畫定期通盤檢討解決現行編定管制缺乏定期檢討機制的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2039.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2056.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
第二是建立鄉村地區整體規劃及機制引導不聚落的土地能夠有序的利用第三是因應氣候變遷訂定調適的機制還有策略第四是建立海域管理機制保育海洋資源第五是建立國土利用的監測法源 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2058.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2079.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
其實為了因應產業發展需求．包括預先規劃產業用地適宜的總量還有區位．另外提供重大公共設施及公用事業計畫的土地使用以及計畫的檢討彈性第三是維護民眾的權益．包括配合目的事業主管機關也預計有土地使用輔導機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2082.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2097.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
第二是因應目的事業廢止或退場經由鄉村地區的整體規劃來解決土地使用管制的疑義第三是建立原住民族土地規劃、輔導、既有的建物、合法的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2098.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2120.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
此外,各地方政府為了推動國土計畫的重要夥伴﹐也透過本部的原商會議﹐到府訪試等等﹐還有反映相關的一個問題﹐執行的相關的機制﹐個案的議題﹐民眾的情形等等﹐我們都跟地方政府來積極的一個原商處理﹐同時加速執法的奠定作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2121.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2132.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
最後跟各位報告後續推動的幾項重點第一就是繼續協助地方政府完成相關法定的工作並且積極辦理國土計畫法以及相關執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2134.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2159.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
不過要加速推動鄉村地區的整體規劃持續輔導地方政府並提供必要的協助最後是加強辦理教育訓練大專院校的課程推廣還有補助原住民族土地環境的基本調查培養種子人員協助說明推廣國土計畫機制並且公開相關的秩序讓民眾更加了解國土計畫以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2162.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2167.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好謝謝林友昌部長接下來請原民會股仲副主任委員進行報告時間5分鐘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2174.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2192.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主席、各位委員、女士先生、大家平安。今天本會議邀到貴委員會列席就《國土計畫推動辦理情形》進行報告。承蒙各位委員對此議題的關心。書面報告已經提供給各位委員參考,進行各位委員會議指導。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2194.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2217.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
7月計畫法公布的時候26萬多公頃的原住民保留地竟有7層被編定為林業用地導致部落族人面臨土地受限等問題造成文化傳承、經濟產業發展生計受影響等困境而國土計畫法在105年5月1日施行 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2217.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2240.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
也將預定在114年5月1日起前面上路全國國土的使用將按國土計畫法重新規範所以本會在內政部研擬國土計畫法立法階段時就積極向內政部來協調納入尊重及保障原住民族土地相關條文因此國土計畫法第23條明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2242.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2259.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
由內政部會同本會共同訂定原住民族土地使用管制規則．並因依原住民族基本法第21條規定．法令涉及限制原住民族利用原住民族土地及自然資源時．應與部落諮商說明．聽取族人的意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2261.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2279.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
全國國土計畫針對原住民族土地使用指導原則也有明定國土規劃應尊重原住民族傳統慣習以及土地利用方式滿足原住民族部落生活社會經濟需求建立和諧的土地使用管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2280.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2306.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
接下來,針對本會在國土計畫推動的執行成果進行說明首先在會籍主任意見及培力的部分以辦理110場次原住民族地區說明座談並針對原住民族土地居住生活、耕作灌輸使用以及文化技餘等設施需求的議題舉辦了4場次的專家學者的座談 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2307.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2332.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
也辦理15場次的部落培力工作坊再來是辦理地方政府教育訓練部分本會在去年9月10月分別在臺東縣以及新竹縣辦理兩場次的教育訓練我們期望辦理原住民族土地業務的基層同仁能更了解國土計畫、土地使用管制規則及相關政策工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2334.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2347.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
在輔導地方政府推動原住民族土地國土功能分區劃設作業部分．本會也積極協調內政部並合併補助各地方政府辦理劃設作業經費約新台幣1.2億元．並與原住民族地區辦理了1349場次的部落說明會． |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2355.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2379.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
以簡易、簡單易懂的語詞在服務與族語同步翻譯向族人說明及聽取族人的意見另外本會與內政部在過去兩年也共計進行27場次到府訪談同時也配合參與各縣市政府國土計畫審議會議協助地方政府解決涉及原住民族土地遭遇的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2383.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2410.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
針對嚴定原住民族土地使用管制規則草案目前的進度本會已經針對部落居住合法、傳統文化、技藝設施允許使用、耕作、灌輸、專區設置等已經嚴理好完成這個條文草案並在去年7月3日也提送給內政部內政部在去年的11月以及今年的1月有召開機關延商的會議目前在 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2412.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2436.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
居住以及公共設施及傳統灌輸使用等部分的議題還仍待商榷因此本會議定在今年的3月、4月會邀請各地方政府召開原住民族土地使用管制規則草案的徵詢座談會我們將依徵詢的意見緊述修正條文來送內政部來續詢草案條文的研商那最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2437.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2462.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
本會將依循國土計畫法第23條規定以及全國國土計畫原住民族土地使用指導原則以尊重及保存原住民族傳統文化保育自然環境與人文資產來研擬原住民族土地使用管制規則我們期待能夠建立永續利用原住民土地的機制以上報告敬請委員指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2465.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2489.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
好 謝謝副主委那在委員質詢前原力做一下幾點宣告第一本會委員及原住民委員發言時間6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員發言時間6分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記第二臨時提案截止提出時間上午10點與本會委員質詢完畢後處理請問各位委員有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2490.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2496.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好那現在進行詢答請登記第一位高金素美委員發言謝謝謝謝主席我們有請林部長還有古仲副主委以及吳署長謝謝好有請部長副主委還有署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2514.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2527.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
國土計畫法現實國土功能分區將在114年5月1日要發布實施所以今天稍微我就排了特別的專案報告我終於看到原住民的土地的規範在 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2529.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2546.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
立法的過程裡面有被尊重有被提及但是還是有非常多的問題我們需要來克服解決的我們回顧一下國土計畫法是在105年本席我在第8席任內的時候通過的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2547.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2573.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個攸關未來50年全台土地規劃的大法當時在原住民族部落的需求或者是怎麼樣落實在母法當中來解決我們的政府以前沒有考慮到的部落需求也並沒有以所謂的都市或鄉村的思考就盡致規劃導致部落現在空有好山好水可是最基本的居住權、土地使用權都被 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2575.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2602.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
其他的法令限制無法發展這就是為什麼當時在談到博土計畫的時候我們會希望放原住民的專章也就是因為以上我提到的幾乎現在有百分之九十幾以上我們部落的建築物是違建包括學校包括相公所包括一些政府所規定的一些建物都是違法的所以也都是政府以前都沒有考慮到原住民的在地的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2603.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2625.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以今天我把這些歷史遺留下來的問題還有困境說明給在場的大家瞭解也期盼原民會和內政部你們更能夠理解部落的歷史文化跟發展的脈絡我們期待一起來解決原住民族土地的權益好嗎?部長我想這也是我們共同努力的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2625.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2640.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好,原住民族的地區總共有55個鄉鎮市區看一下地圖分別座落在12個縣市當中我們的土地除了國土計畫法在規範之外還有所謂的國家公園還有都市計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2642.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2660.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
然而我們族人居住和土地的使用權在這種不同計畫的束縛之下導致我們有一套的中央法規到地方政府要去執行的時候就有12套不同的執行方案然後再加上我剛講到的國土計畫國家公園計畫、都市計畫其實都有他們劃設的依據所以同樣是部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2669.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2679.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
在土管還有建管的法規上面又產生了20多種不同的執行方案而這些問題正是8年前我們在討論國土計畫的時候我堅持要納進原住民族條款的重要原因了我們看一下國土計畫法 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2691.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2700.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
國土計畫法涉及到原住民族權益相關的條文總共有第6、第8、第11、第16、第20、第23還有36條其中的第8條和第41條是有關國家公園範圍以及都市計畫的規範然後這兩個範圍內的部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2712.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2729.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這些問題呢我下次再就叫部長還有副主委還有我們的吳署長今天我要聚焦在23條23條談的是什麼就是涉及到原住民族土地和海域的使用管制者是由內政部會同 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2730.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2758.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
注意會同這兩個字會同原民會要共同訂定原住民族土地使用規則而過去這一年來我接到不同縣市的族人跟我反映原民會、國土署和縣市政府你們依據原基法的規範你們剛剛在說明的時候也談到了你們有開了很多場的部落說明會但是呢我們說明會開完了之後族人是越聽越模糊了那今天我要列 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2759.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2772.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
列出幾個族人最想知道而且最迫切想要解決的問題第一個是105年5月1號前族人實際居住的房子未來會輔導合法化是嗎?部長是的好謝謝同時我們的土地也會因為這樣變更成建地對嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2783.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2794.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我們會進行鄉村會進行鄉村的一個整備105年5月1號以前既有的建物全部都是合法的對不對然後也會變更成建地對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2798.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2800.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
福島既有的建物的合法期限到底什麼時候會完成? |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2815.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2839.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
委員你的那個問題的那個點沒關係因為今天時間有限所以呢我大概丟幾個問題那麼我也會建議幾個問題第一個就是我希望你們跟建築工會能夠討論一下因為這接著會有影響到一些問題其實本席也跟建築工會的理事長我們討論過這件事情不論為什麼合法的建物那麼少 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2840.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2856.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
他除了是土地受到限制之外根本的問題就是部落比較偏遠族人要聘請一個建築師不僅僅要付出更多的費用同時呢我們的政策也沒有鼓勵建築師來了解不同族群的歷史文化背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2857.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2880.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
所以我在這邊建議內政部你們作為建築管理中央主管機關你們應該馬上跟原民會著手來規劃邀請這些建築師公會我們籌辦論壇然後我們一起來討論怎麼樣加速推動部落住宅政策可以嗎部長我想這部分沒問題第二個就是農事範圍農事範圍僅僅限於3戶以上的部落未來房子不夠居住怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2881.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2907.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這是我提出的第一個問題那麼國土署就建議了新增做住宅使用因辦理鄉村聚落的整體規劃就如同你們的報告一樣我認為未來新增住宅市每個部落都會有的需求況且我們的政府也不斷的在推動地方創生就是希望我們外流的人口能夠回到部落年輕人能夠回到部落因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2908.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2926.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們如果要在農事的規範周邊畫設以現在來說是沒有未來成長區所以你要引進這些外流人口今年回來是很難的所以我建議我們應該要畫一個未來成長區作為因應否則目前有700多個部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2927.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2949.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
如果都要做鄉村規劃,我們熟悉部落專業規劃的團隊夠嗎?同時我們應該要保留目前非都市土地原住民保留地住宅興建審查作業也就是我們一直講的一生一次的機制否則我們找不到專業團隊真是曠日廢時啊所以這也會直接影響到主任權益部長你同意嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2950.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2956.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
至於少於3戶的房子因為沒有辦法劃入農事這部分我了解法規的限制但是呢難道未來族人一戶兩戶的房子只能夠當作住家不能夠做民宿或者不能夠做雜貨店嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2979.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3006.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
尤其是所謂的無橫的露營區所以我們看一下光是桃竹苗這三個縣市少於3戶的房子就超過4000戶了然後過去我們的政府實質建築管理前的合法房屋證明只要取得合法房屋證明都可以提供證明文件作為設立登記跟營業登記針對少於3戶我在去年底也召開過協調會 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3008.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3025.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
討論我們討論容許使用的類別和項目目前委員會辦理的進度怎麼樣內政部你們同意朝這個方向去進行嗎是委員這有幾個重點第一個是這個三戶以下要層聚落這個在任意上有困難但是它是事實存在的問題這個我們朝容許使用的一個方向來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3031.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3045.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
第三個問題部長你都給我了一個很好的回應我相信今天族人也都聽到了最後我要建議內政部和原民會你們要思考一下未來原住民土地使用規則發布施行之後原鄉的建築管理應該要依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3046.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3070.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
目前的建築法第99之一條也就是都市計畫以外地區或者是偏遠地區的建築物的管理得與簡化的規定你們應該要提出適合與原鄉簡化流程的範本作為地方自治法規的立法或者是修法的依據避免我們的原鄉再陷入有謀法是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3071.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3092.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
地方政府之後有各種不同的建管版本的困境部長你同意朝這個方向去進行嗎?這個也是我們現在內政部正在努力的方向這部分是一致的好很好我聽股仲股仲副主委不好意思再給我一點時間謝謝主席副主委您有說到就是3、4月你會來再開一次會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3093.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3107.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這個會議是什麼會議可以跟大家說明報告一下嗎?跟委員報告因為我們的原住民族土地使用管制規則草案送內政部之後我們還有部分的議題還要再跟收集地方的意見所以我們在今年3、4月會辦五場次的全國的地方政府的一個座談會 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3113.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3141.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
我剛剛提的這三個問題是不是也是他們目前急需要解決跟想要問的問題委員所提的問題就是我們部落主任最迫切需要解決的問題那我們3月26日就會有第一場次在新竹來舉辦好 謝謝請問吳署長剛剛您聽到了部長跟我的回答我提的這部落非常迫切需要解決的問題您有意見嗎還是您願意依循部長的回應然後來解決這也是我們目前正在努力解決的一個方向好 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3142.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3157.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
也就是原民會跟這個內政部的營建署是一致的你們是一致的所以這個規範規則很快就會出來了對不對好感謝謝謝部長謝謝副主委謝謝署長謝謝好謝謝高金素美委員下一位請張宏祿委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3173.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3179.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
其實我們現在今天所說的國土計畫法它是不是也等於是現有的國家公園計畫及都市計畫的上位計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3196.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3221.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
應該是這樣子說就是國土計畫它最主要在處理過去所謂的區域計畫法所這個規範的範圍裡面也就是過去所謂的非都的這些地區對嘛對它會涵蓋了過去區域計畫法所涵蓋的這個部分它等於是它的三維計畫它等於是全國性的位階了吧是對不對好那大家就很關心啦對不對那 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3223.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3234.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
擔心我現在聽到最多的是我以後的農地農用就永遠農用那我以後這個好像農地的價值就降低是不是很多人有擔心這個? |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3236.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3253.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
國土計畫法其實最重要的精神就是國土的合理的使用那所以過去我們在非都的這些區域其實幾十年下來有很多存在的問題那這一次也一併透過國土計畫法把它做一個處理跟解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3254.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3254.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
對啦,但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3283.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3309.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我們要講不然很多人就擔心這個是一個另外一個各縣市的進度是如何我手上的資料我知道好像只有3個縣市有報上來是各縣市的狀況不一為什麼因為縣市有大小然後縣市也有這個不同的一個狀況跟複雜的一個難度那目前送到部裡面有這個連江金門跟花蓮縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3310.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3339.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
其他會他們審完之後會陸陸續續送到部裡面來進行審議其實就是因為他的複雜度跟地方的聲音多那縣市啊其實要整合也不容易啦然後要去做也不容易啦所以他們目前是因為這個原因所以才沒有辦法很快速的送上來吧是因為不同的縣市有不同的狀況比如說像新北市新北市就服務員很廣大所以當然他的複雜度也增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3339.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3344.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
其他所謂的農業縣的部分也有類似的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3346.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3373.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
對啦齁我覺得啦既然國土計畫法是上位的一個法啦齁其實我覺得這一次我有一個問題啦我們雖然是這樣但各縣市還是本於他的轄區去規劃然後去做其實沒有整個通盤考量台灣的整體的發展了對不對我舉個很簡單的例子啊我們新北 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3374.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3379.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
跟基隆以前的基隆其實有的很多的新北的生活圈是在基隆啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3380.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3405.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我們這次的國土的規劃、國土的計畫其實沒有從一個更高的全國的角度去看還是各縣市以本位主義去處理那其實這裡就會有一個盲點新的生活區域、新的什麼到底是否符合未來台灣的發展還是本與本縣市直接去處理這樣是一個很大的盲點我不知道部長的看法如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3407.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3425.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
國土計畫基本上是一個大分區的一個概念所以它會比較大範圍在處理土地使用分區另外在大的一個分區下面容許使用委員另外提到的是區域發展的一個課題區域發展的確需要跨縣市來進行討論跟整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3426.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3450.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
不過這個就是像過去基隆跟新北我們就曾經針對基隆河谷廊帶有臺北市、新北市跟基隆市的一個合作那另外在比如說像中部地區或者是南部的地區其實也有比如說像中張的一個合作等等那這個就是在一個跨縣市在跨都市計畫的這個行政轄區的一個範圍裡面來做這個整體的一個規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3453.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3478.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那跟我們現在要處理國土計畫這個層次有一點不太一樣不過委員剛剛提到的我非常認同應該要有一個區域的整體規劃沒有錯部長雖然層次不同但是如果一次把它拉高在一個高的程度整體去看我覺得反而是對台灣的發展更有利如果以目前這樣子的話會不會有很多縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3480.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3504.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
為了在這個國土計畫實施前他把很多非都的地區加速往那邊偏移那會不會到時候變成非都的土地大幅的飆漲會不會有這個問題委員你指的是什麼意思是他現在就往你現在我們的非都土地是不是可以轉換成可開發用地 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3507.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3530.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
倒不是這樣 可能倒不是直接 法律上是允許的啦不是直接 我知道不是直接 因為非多的土地 非多的土地本來就是可以使用 是對 它本來就可以使用 是啊 現在因為國土是大的一個分區讓它更清楚 所以這兩個中間並沒有一個衝突的一個問題 它本來就可以使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3531.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3550.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我覺得會喔如果你去看阿齁我們以台中為例阿齁台中的霧峰阿齁七層被劃入農業發展區那旁邊的大理阿就不一樣了所以變成霧峰的農地大跌大理的農地大漲這是石家登陸上都有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3553.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3567.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
不過這部分我們剛剛其實在報告裡面也有特別提到中央會就地方未來發展所需要的產業發展區這部分也要把它納入規劃所以這個可能看地方政府他們有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3567.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3586.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
看到這一部分的一個需求我們是在計畫裡面是應該要考慮到這一點我知道以我們這樣來做理論上是沒有錯啦但在地方上實際執行上我覺得我很擔心會有我說的這種問題出現我不認為這是不可能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3587.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3613.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我認為這是非常有可能的這個就是地方政府他們的計畫送上來之後我想為什麼要兩級的一個審議那我們也會提供相關的一個意見對對對我這個就是說要我要跟部長講我們部里在審這個時候我們要特別注意這一個再來我們這個國土計畫法我覺得人民對土地有兩個很大的訴求一個是生存權一個是財產權 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3616.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3641.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我的財產我如果被徵收或什麼我摸著鼻子反正也沒有辦法對不對但他還可以活下去但生存權我們就必須要特別去注意像剛剛高金委員他所說的我覺得他就那個角度是比較傾向生存權我事事代代在這裡你給我畫了之後我什麼都不能做我什麼都不行我覺得這是生存權 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3642.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3656.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我認為這一個不是只有原民地區會發生我們舉很多的例子我們新北、烏來是原住民區但我們旁邊的坪林啊什麼的其實跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3657.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3677.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
原住民區是一樣的啊他單獨一戶的也是有很多啊對不對那我覺得像這個問題我們也不能太著墨於只有在原住民區我覺得要一併解決啊不然我隔壁的他可以啊我不行這個會造成人民很大的困擾部長你的看法如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3678.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3699.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我想這個可能要每一個區每一個區來看像剛剛委員所提到的平民地區的部分它基本上是受到那個水質水量的這個保護區的一個限制它是特別啦是特別保護區的限制但有很多地方啊你如果台中市你和平跟東市就隔壁啊那和平可以那東市不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3700.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3700.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3718.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3746.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我的意思是說原住民區的我們一定要去照顧到他我們不能但同樣的生存權我覺得全台灣的人只要他有這個土地我們的生存權都要被重視原住民我們當然要幫他那我剛以我舉的例台中的東勢那都是客家人啊對不對我們也要保護他要讓他一樣有這個生存權我覺得這一點我們要特別注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3747.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3756.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
是當然身份權我們會注意土地的一個合理使用我們會注意好謝謝謝謝張宏祿委員的質詢謝謝部長謝謝署長接下來請牛旭廷委員質詢請好謝謝主席這個部長署長有請好請林宥昌部長請署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3777.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3793.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
委員好部長早安今天是這個國土計畫推動情形的專案報告那當然我們就切合主題來談一下這樣的問題這個您應該是相關這個本來就是念這一部分的嘛對不對土地管理應用跟都市計畫您有這樣方面的專業對不對不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3793.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3820.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
然後也做過地方縣市首長所以我想由林文昌部長來好好來跟這個地方做政策對話應該是蠻適宜的今天不談個案因為這個東西下去談地方的個案其實會有非常非常多講一講不完今天談這個通案跟政策溝通的一些細節有幾個問題要就教這個部長就本席在地方的了解這個國土計畫的推動引發了不小的爭議其中有一個比較大的問題在於第一個問題叫做書圖不同步 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3820.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3846.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
也就是說其實在110年那時候本席來做議員的時候其實我們就有收到桃園市的國土計畫書啦但是就只是講概念也就是說我們大的方向是怎麼來做大概會有哪一些的分類分類一些定義或什麼東西的那當然嘛就是從政府的角度來講因為當初在推動的時候你就知道書圖來不及同步嘛可是這個事情其實會衍生一個問題衍生什麼問題就是說我收到的國土計畫書我知道現在要改用國土計畫法可是問題是我不知道圖啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3847.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3876.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這個東西我沒有辦法跟地方的這個人做清楚的溝通的說明以至於地方政府在執行政策溝通的時候他是沒辦法接地氣的因為你跟地方比如說開說明會就公聽會然後大家一問說那所以我家土地變什麼完蛋了我土還沒有出來那其實這個書圖不同步的時候就會導致溝通不充分的問題那現在另外一個問題是這個國土計畫法15條第三項有講說每5年做一次通盤檢討那你110年就公佈書但是預計是明年才會公佈圖嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3877.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3878.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
請部長簡單回答一下 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3904.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3931.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我想這個其實也蠻就是說很清楚剛剛在提到第一個就是過去一開始的時候的確是書圖不同步那第二個是第二階段的部分大概是縣市政府在完成這個書圖那第三階段圖的部分到部裡面來做審議那剛剛在提到的這個時間點怎麼算時間點就是從這個國土的功能分區公佈實施之後開始算起誤年 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3933.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3949.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以是說圖出來之後才5年?是,所以說這個圖完成公告之後5年那另外一個問題就一樣是這個法規在推動跟執行的時候的問題叫做其他法規的配套修正我們現在看不出來有一些進度這是要提醒一下我們的政府機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3950.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3973.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
比如說舉幾個例子第二條農發條例農發條例沒有寫耕地的定義叫一區域計畫法劃定為特農一般農山坡地保育區及森林區的農牧用地這些用語都來自於過去的區域計畫法可是你現在國土計畫法如果要上路那農發條例這個東西你後面在做註記登記的時候其實會造成地方的行政負擔那這個東西的修法另外工廠管理負擔法也一樣第9條講 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3974.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3990.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
利用都市計畫工業區非都市土地編定為丁種建築用地﹖這個也都是用區域計畫法的名詞﹖還有住宅法28條第二款第三款﹖非都土地甲種建築用地、乙種建築用地﹖達500平方公尺以上﹖非都土地丙種建築用地等等﹖這個都是用區域計畫法的法律名詞﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3991.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4006.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那你現在新的國土計畫法你講明年4月要全部上路那上路的時候你萬一其他的東西配套沒有來得及修正那這個東西造作法律上衍生適用意義影響大家生活品質我想這是不太好的那內政部針對這個其他法規你有沒有做通盤的盤整那預計的修法的期程是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4007.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4034.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
是的,內政部當然也有針對相關法規有進行盤整。國土計畫法相關的執法大概有23項。那我們目前已經完成14項。另外還有9項預定是在今年年底前完成。那至於其他的配套部分我請吳署長來做補充。好,署長回答一下。因為我們現在談的是其他的法條嘛。對,就是其他各部會的部分我們在111年都已經有大致上彙整。請各部會相關開始進行作業。 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4034.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4048.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那我目前已知道大概財政部國產署的這個內規齁就他有一些內部的行政作業這些他都已經陸陸續續已經修正完了那但是他有草案都已經確認就要跟我們同步去嫌疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4050.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4071.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
對,對,那其他各部會我們知道也有陸續在作業當中好,這就是你那個相關跟你整個國土計畫法修正相關的這個其他的法條,跨部會統統的修正像您所講的農法條例、工夫法對,這個跟不同部會涉及到七、八個部會都會對,那個要同步好,那一樣你做一下會診,會有提供資料好不好,那我們來追蹤也讓我們去了解這個各部會修法的狀況好,沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4072.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4093.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
好再來一個問題是就是其實是真正今天深水區的問題了嗎你現在內政部要怎麼去掌握各縣市辦理國土功能分區圖的進度啊因為現在看起來只有這個連江金門跟花蓮已經交了嘛大部分的縣市政府好像都還沒交那就本期的了解其實各地縣政府在溝通的時候都遇到很多問題啊那現在部裡面有多大的把握你可以全盤掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4094.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4122.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們其實每個月都有召開這個協調的一個會議所以基本上中央跟地方是同步的資訊是同步也掌握他們現在的進度跟狀況我今天早上看到一則新聞他講說這個就是因為我們剛剛提的這個問題也就是各地方縣市政府沒有辦法可能沒有辦法如期上交相關的這個圖的問題所以好像內政部行政院立法院的討論平台說可能會延後有這樣的事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4123.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4150.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
跟部長確認一下我想這個地方各種聲音都有那這樣子說要延後的一個聲音也不只是現在提其實在很久以前其實也都提過不過我們還是照依法照這個期程在進行那也繼續努力那你講繼續努力有點模糊到底會不會照原定期程還是說如果真的有狀況的話你有一些延後的配套我覺得今天把話講清楚比較重要啦我們基本上因為這個一定要跟地方政府來做合作所以我們也要跟地方政府來做進一步的一個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4152.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4180.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
所以還有進一步討論的必要就對了我們現在當然也聽到許多的一個問題我們也會正視不過目前整個的一個協調機制還有所有的進度基本上都在進行當中那什麼時候可以確定因為現在既然新聞有出來說可能有延後的狀況我覺得真的如果溝通還沒有完善延後也不是什麼大不了的事情但至少這東西要完善因為所有東西都要層層溝通你延後多一點時間討論那大家可能放心一點什麼時候可以確定說它會不會延後 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4181.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4205.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
這部長心裡有數嗎?我想這部份最重要是大家要有一些共識那各種聲音現在都有所以目前還沒有凝聚共識的階段就對了現在目前還沒有好沒關係我想這就是我們今天專案報告的目的今天用這個時間我們把這個中間溝通遇到的各種問題大部分是政策溝通的通案問題跟大家講就最後一點點時間就談一下這個這一樣是地方在遇到這個問題的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4206.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4222.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
就是說過去在非都的情況下來當然就是你看以建丁建嘛 農牧用地那這個理論上都是以前叫鄉村區的一個概念那現在鄉村區你基於國土計畫要整併相關的土地要做有效的應用也要讓這個土地的這個這個畫色 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4224.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4241.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
更容易管理嘛 對不對我想這是國土計畫推動的這個初衷嘛那你當然要在這個地方做一些細微的調整你如果只是換了名詞然後本質上它沒有用那叫換湯不換藥那你這是白搞對不對所以你要做相對的土地的整合跟應用可是整合跟應用的時候比如說像這樣鄉村區裡面的非 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4241.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4242.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我回顧的機制嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4264.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4266.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
先市政府都會遇到的普遍性的問題就包夾在中間的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4294.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4313.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那過去非都的部分非都的時代他是習慣用零星變更但這其實中間還會有卡到像農發條例的認定問題農發條例的認定問題那所以他往往在這過程當中其實是非常除非他認定為麒麟地否則他其實很難被併進來所以在國土計畫裡面他反而是允許用鄉村地區整體規劃去整體做適宜性的分析那才確認他以後是可以來申請的 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4323.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4325.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我想這都是一些還沒有溝通完畢的一個狀況吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4341.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4368.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
不管是跟縣市政府的溝通也好這些細節政策配套也好或者是其他法條的配套其實好像都還沒有像樣的一個整合進度所以我想今天跟部長做一下政策對話所以如果他還需要花時間整理那是不是早一點明快一點講也許我們要有延後討論的必要那或者是說如果要如期上路那這中間的時間來如何來安排讓這些問題可以有效的處理這部長請部長再要提供一個完整的說明好不好好沒問題好謝謝辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4369.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4371.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好謝謝牛許廷委員謝謝部長謝謝署長接下來有請徐宇貞委員提出質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4402.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4405.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
謝謝主席請林佑昌部長部長有請委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4411.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4440.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
部長早想請教部長依據全國的國土計畫的土地使用指導原則之一就是保障既有的合法權利允許土地使用因此針對既有合法的建築用地原依區計畫法編定的可建築用地與不妨礙國土的保育保安海洋資源維護農業發展的需求等情形下得繼續編定為可建築用地或者其他適當的使用地並得為 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4441.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4468.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
既有合法之使用,請問這個原則正確嗎?是,是正確的。好,謝謝部長。所以部長回答這個原則是正確的。是。好,請問一下部長,農業部為了配合國土計畫法進行全國的農地的盤整,希望整頓出74到81萬公頃的農地作為國家糧食的安全農地之用。那農地盤整的結果,全國至少有6、7萬公頃的農地遭到佔用。 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4469.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4496.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那違章的建物有違法工廠、有農舍、有餐廳、有廟宇其中非法工廠對農地的衝擊是最大的而國土計畫法即將上路請教部長這些土地違規使用的原則內政部要怎麼去處理那如果是已經在這個法規制定之前就已經存在的內政部要不要協助他們轉型請教部長我想這個細節部分我請吳署長來做補充好請署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4499.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4514.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
感謝委員其實在非都的部分大概農地違規使用的情形是大概一定有存在啦所以之前在工廠的部分當然有工廠輔導法他還是延續的繼續來使用那寺廟的部分其實現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4514.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4514.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4533.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4539.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
而不是屬於這一種事後在農地的違規的話那這個部分所以會協助他們轉行為合法是嗎沒錯那請教一下從這些問題來看內政部對於這個土地違規的處理問題其實我想有全國有六七萬公頃表示說也沒有很積極在處理才會這違規的土地越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4556.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4571.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
因為部長去年在總統大選的時候我們三組候選人總統候選人都有土地的爭議的問題那其中柯文哲他持分的農地非農用在3月18號已經回復到農用的這個狀態請問一下部長這個處理態度是不是應該給予鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4576.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4598.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我想違規使用的部分能夠去把它依法來做這個改正我想這個本來就是應該做的因為部長也曾經是民意代表所以你會不會覺得就是在選舉的時候好像才會被嚴格的檢驗那也就是農地違規的使用的問題才有辦法獲得解決呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4599.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4600.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
市長也是民選的,所以也是經過選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4617.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4631.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我想這個違規的事情其實都是在處理那這一般是屬於地方政府的一個權責不過因為在選舉的時候我們的候選人他因為媒體關注所以容易被凸顯出來所以好像要選舉才會這個問題才會被凸顯出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4633.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4635.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
總統當選人賴清德的萬里老家的違建問題也被討論得很多我想請教一下部長賴清德的萬里老家符不符合違建的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4653.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4668.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這個其實在選舉期間也已經講過很多次了這個最主要是因為因為它不是個案的問題基本上它是一個通案是因為我們的政府在那個時間裡面沒有去完成相關的程序所以造成它目前的狀況所以我一幫政治的違建這樣算不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4673.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4690.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我想請教一下部長2003年以前這個賴清的老家其實不是這樣子的是到2003年之後我們依照他當時的航照圖改建成現在這個興建房屋的模樣請問部長同不同意我想這部分請吳署長來做說明感謝委員其實這一個部分的土地的確就如剛剛部長所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4699.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4723.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
這個其實在臺灣在礦業也好林業也好其實都有這類的問題那所以其實這類的民眾是因為政府的法規土地法規沒有適時的修正讓他導致他無法立法那我想啦依照這個剛剛部長回答的這個國土計畫的土地使用指導原則必須要在既有合法的使用下才能重新辨定剛剛部長說回答正確嘛所以你認為賴清德的老家符合這個原則嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4725.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4745.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這個部分跟委員報告這個部分我們跟經濟部地礦中心已經有邀集相關的縣市政府都有開過會那我們預計在這個月底會把整個的檢討原則全部確認清楚那就可以蓋實進行這個邊更邊訂的作用我想請教一下部長所以剛剛請教您的就是賴清德的老家符合這個原則嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4746.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4748.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我記得署長之前也對賴清德的老家做出解釋他說由於當時的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4768.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4791.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
未能及時的獲取礦業計畫廢紙的資訊加上法律諮詢服務並未普及所以政府部門也沒有辦法主動的通知及協助民眾辦理合法化的作業後續也沒有適時的檢討相關的法令也沒有通案檢討廢紙後使用地處理機制合理性所以讓問題這個延伸至今所以部長跟署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4791.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4816.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我覺得你這段說法有兩個問題第一個問題就是說2003年的時候賴清德當時是擔任立法委員你覺得他的資訊取得跟他的這個法律知識跟一般人一樣嗎其實不一樣所以你們現在我覺得只是為了要解套所以內政部國土署也居然在國土計畫法要開後門所以我覺得以本席看來其實你這部分其實就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4817.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4841.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
再為520之後披露啦那第二個問題就是2003年當時的臺北縣長是蘇貞昌那吳署長是在說當時的臺北縣政府縣長都沒有辦法主動通知及協助民眾辦理合法化的作業嗎所以現在需要總統當選人賴清德的政府幫自己解套這樣算不上是利益衝突需不需要迴避呢所以另外也請教部長喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4842.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4861.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
本席看你所提的報告上面有提到國土計畫法上路之後要回復民眾的權益其中第二點有寫到因應礦業、林業等目的地事業計畫廢止或退場經由鄉村地區的整體規劃研擬因地質疑、空間發展計畫解決在地土地使用的管制就像你剛剛提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4863.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4884.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
請問部長這句話的意思是不是指內政部將通過通案處理的方式以整體性的空間發展計畫幫賴清德老家違禁解套呢委員並不是這樣剛剛在講這是一個通案不只是礦業用地其實包括今天很重要原住民區原住民族地區也都是同樣的問題請問您知道嗎依據經濟部的這個調查所提供的資料發現以這樣具有建物的土地面積你知道現在有多少公頃嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4893.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4913.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
三百四幾公頃三百四幾是用這個用地像是有建物的土地面積有三十二公頃也就是這三十二公頃你們都要做這樣的專案通案的處理方式嗎而剛剛那個意思叫做整規相分地區的一個整體規劃那這個也是國土計畫裡面一個非常重要的配套機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4914.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4938.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我是覺得這個部長因為賴清德的老家竟然被稱為賴皮寮所以如果內政部要幫賴皮寮的違建解套的話我覺得內政部應該要更名為賴皮部委員並不是這樣子剛剛說得很清楚這是一個全國通案然後原住民還有林務署還有那個那個委員對不起請千萬不要這樣子貼標籤我們在處理的是全國性的問題好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4948.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4948.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
下一位請往美會委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4988.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4990.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這是我們現在保證現在署長好部長署長有請謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4997.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5004.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
市長,你好。市長,你好。在這裡面,剛才探討了很多。本來要跟你探討的就是說,我們的國土法,在這裡面,我們的全台灣的管制, |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5015.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5032.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
有什麼人還沒上禮拜有可能到六月底沒有資料上給你們內政部嗎?來,回答一下因為時間還沒有到,我們也不好去做揣測不過目前為止是三個縣市請問到目前為止哪一個縣市哪一個政府有上來你們內政部現在金門馬祖及華聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5041.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5057.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
有金門媽祖花蓮這三個村的都沒什麼村的阿伯村的阿伯齁?是跟部長署長本時候來請教一個問題我們已經演了,已經演多天了九月份要實施啊六月,已經愛上了我們每一天全這三個月這個官期當中的問題是什麼來請回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5070.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5070.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5078.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5099.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
有一些過去沒有協助合法的部分他們也覺得現在要作業的話時間可能會來不及第二個就是說那有一些實際套土下去了跟現況也有不符的部分那這些他們也覺得跟民眾跟民意之間的溝通還有需要時間那第三個也包含說我在作業過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5100.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5113.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
像有夾雜一些機靈的、夾雜一些不完整的那它是否要一定一併併進來那這些的確在地方溝通上還會有一些比較辛苦需要協調的部分署長、部長我們要跟你們探討的就是說說的比較簡單、做的比較困難在這個規定當中就是有困難我們就要跟他們演講美女 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5125.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5128.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
在這個規定當中的問題．因為北省都想說．我本來還住在那裡．自己跟政府說要讓我退縮 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5137.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5157.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我不知道：尤其我們跟議員辦的說明：內院有歷史辦的：有的上班：也沒有辦法參與：還有什麼方法：可以讓北省還了解：你們跟對應的政府做這個國土分化法： |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5159.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5170.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
會做法嗎?來,所長,你回答一下。各位報告,這是我們當地相關的選民會﹖廣場其實都有開過﹖我才說有開過﹖開過,我所了解,開過怎麼會開呢?開一個交代而已,事實結構問題出一台。 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5180.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5180.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5205.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5206.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5221.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5221.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
委員會主任委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5237.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5244.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我要報告這一個規定都是正面的因為剛才說我們一般老百姓書圖書圖看到本地搞不太清楚所以讀出來之後看到讀回到的時候他才知道跟他有什麼關係所以他有一些意見反映出來這個都很正常 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5262.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5265.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
委員會主任委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5277.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5278.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
國際立法院第11屆第1會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5301.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5312.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
拜席聽到你要發言時﹖他就喘到要死了他最主要是跟以前的認識不太一樣他會擔心說是不是跟以前一樣這在地方政府其實都有一個案一個案出來發現之後都有在做溝通他剛才說要看得到的時候﹖歡迎問題﹖這個我們都有掌握像北京市長跟他去台北都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5328.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5334.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
幾位阿嬤．但在我們嘉義縣市有一塊是保護區．一塊是發電區．一塊是城鄉發展區．在這個地方的時候．北省也會認為說．你如果為了我後來要怎樣．尤其這位阿公阿嬤說實在．反而我不會睡覺．說我不知道要怎樣． |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5354.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5360.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
市長,你知道阿公阿嬤這樣做或是在這裡的東西的時候有啦有啦,會很完善耶是,這可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5367.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5373.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
現在最重點就是說他們過去的認定是不一樣的,所以說可能沒變,可能沒變但是那個認定沒變,他當然一定會歡樂啦,所以這就是也是過程中地方政府有需要比較多時間跟這些民眾做一些溝通啦,因為他們要了解可能其實沒變,只是這個名稱外,可能沒變,但是我也了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5390.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5390.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
議員主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5408.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5409.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
市長部長． |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5438.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5443.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我們要到位,要給百姓認為說我們想這個法是要給百姓還有保障他們的生活跟他們的財產啦,不是要我們像說土匪的,人家說跟你是要求人的財產,我們不要給他們生活,這個這樣聽起來是心肝的難過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5459.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5464.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
所以我們是說,剛才你們的報告,包括原民會,我覺得他就報告了很好,部長報告了很好,所以你們想這個問題,你們要去提,可以再說嘛,你看原民會,我多用心,他剛才報告的時候寫了一個, |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5478.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5479.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5505.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5510.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
好,謝謝網美會委員接下來請李博義委員提出質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5523.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5542.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
謝謝有請林部長跟吳署長林部長吳署長有請謝謝先請股仲副主委好了股仲副主委有請吳署長你稍等一下吳署長你稍等一下那個股仲副主委對原住民非常的這個保護這些用地非常的用心 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5543.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5571.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那在這邊給你肯定之外那也要跟部長這邊來說明一下其實高雄比如說柴山國家自然公園裡面的原本居住在裡面的住民他其實未來現在跟未來還是不斷的遇到他們的這個子女結婚之後的這些房屋的問題也需要來共同來討論跟原住民區一樣要需要來共同來討論這些使用那鼓動副主委可以了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5574.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5595.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
國土署吳署長謝謝署長有請部長高雄的發展其實我們內政部還有我們國土署 佔了非常重要的角色在我見證這幾年如果當初沒有縣市合併如果2010年沒有縣市合併的話橋頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5599.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5624.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
現在你知道的橋頭科學園區當時還在內政部營建署叫做橋頭新市政那設計來作為住商混合區未來要發展這邊的住商那預計要住到20萬的人口那到這個縣市合併之後高雄市當時的城局市長因為產業的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5625.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5640.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那跟中央來合議跟內政部來合議那把橋頭新市鎮規劃爭取成為橋頭科學園區也就是目前我們國土署正在積極的闢建三條道路的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5641.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5656.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
這三條道路目前到國道1號而已,這個署長在上個禮拜也跟你做過這些質詢希望趕快加速的來把這個橋頭科研區目前在我的說法是古島 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5658.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5658.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
台積電在今年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5676.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5689.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
臺積電就在這個橋頭科學園區的南邊一點點而已我們希望今年底臺積電進駐以後沒有多久我們這些橋頭科學園區相關的這些廠商就可以快速的進駐來配合相關臺積電的這些半導體產業的進駐 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5692.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5710.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
所以這一方面這個內政部站了非常重要的角色之外也希望國土署這邊趕快的把這個一之一之二一之三連接到省道的這個計畫趕快跟高雄市政府來做相關的這些規劃來署長好請你說明一下其實真的感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5711.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5729.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
市府這邊其實長期都跟我們有密切的合作那這個案子的確就誠如您剛剛所看到其實中間是高速公路那原本這個我們也當時期待是說我在開發的時候能把高速公路一併拓寬這樣才能解決長期南直到岡山之間的塞車問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5730.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5759.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
但是在這過程當中因為高工局是由高工局來辦理所以我們的3個寒凍都是在高速公路橋下的寒凍那因為高工局後來的標案其實非常不順跟委員報告一直到去年才標出去了那個現在不只寒凍的問題齁寒凍在往西在往西才會到省道是是所以以後齁就全部塞在這裡阿我們希望高雄以後的半導體產業不要因為半導體產業變成新竹的交通阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5759.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5776 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以跟委員報告高速公路的部分因為它會延到大概116年才會開闢完成也就是那個寒凍那你左邊這一邊可以先跟高雄市政府有有這邊都已經有雙方有在合作要來那到底是國土署要做還是高雄市政府要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5776.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5802.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
有一部分是由高雄市政府做,但是...好,那你最後把明確的...明確的到底是...市主要做哪一邊,那高雄市政府要做哪一邊,明確的把這些區域規劃給我,那我來協助跟高雄市政府這邊來趕快加速這邊的開闢跟這邊的發展。是是,那裡面現在有四家廠商在動工,其實我們都會安排輔導他,從這個...四家跟半逃的有關嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5803.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5823.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
都沒有現在目前還沒有好謝謝來署長部長這個接下來也是我我這個跟你補充一下那個因為喬科喬科其實在20多年前在跟新市的南科的時候其實他們是同一個時間提出來的只不過後來選了台南所以他本來就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5825.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5833.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
20多年前那個時候叫做橋頭新市還沒有提出科學園區這個概念提出來是大概2010年的時候2012年的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5837.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5861.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那第二個是禮拜五的時候我會到高雄我會到橋頭的這個科學園區這邊去做視察所以你剛剛關心的這些議題我們也會在那邊一併的做這個討論部長請你把行程給我我希望我也可以參加因為這個產業的發展的需求你的報告裡面有但是我不知道這個報告是什麼時候提出來這什麼時候才開始規劃的包含經濟部跟國科會 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5864.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5887.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
給你的資料裡面是寫到說到125年新增的產業用地是3311公頃科學工業園區新增用地需求是1000公頃這個是不是每個月都在變動我想這個這個可能齁這個數字已經已經都改變了跟回報其實已經都改變我都我都覺得可能不夠呢你看熊本你看熊本你看熊本 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5889.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5901.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
為什麼快速的會有第二個場出來我不知道日本的相關的這些非都的或者是這個都市計畫的這些產業跟農地的這些概念的分布是怎樣我覺得我建議我們國土署這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5905.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5925.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
跟經濟部跟科學工業園區真的要保持高度的聯繫讓這個台積電等半導體產業布局臺灣生根臺灣的這個理想可以落實來署長根文報告其實我們副院長在院裡面大概副院長或院長都會定期的召開相關的會 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5927.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5944.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這個這個半年變化就很很快是是所以甚至都一兩個月就會開一次也就是說針對相關的產業提出來的需求還有各地現在在進行的國路計畫的狀況因為未來未來AI的這些需對於這些晶片的需求是大到我們自己都沒有辦法想像 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5945.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5968.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
所以這些相關的這些科學產業園區的這些用地的量我想國土署這邊還是要盡量的可以來配合我們產業的需求當然最重要的今天的重點就是到底我們對外說明民眾溝通還有處理這些異議在縣市政府所提出來的這些時間國土署有沒有辦法配合是今天的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5970.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5997.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
對外說明跟民眾溝通這個是最難處理的事情所有民眾遇到農地所有民眾遇到特登工廠等等的問題我們沒有好好的妥適的幫他們解決的話真的我們這一套會造成非常大的影響所以在這邊也建議我們國土署這個還是要對於所有的縣市政府的這個對外說明跟民眾溝通所有的案件裡面全部都要拿出來再檢討一次來署長請你做一個回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5998.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6024.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
感謝委員因為其實就像委員剛所講其實過往當中民眾真的提出非常多意見所以我們在地方相關的這個審查會我們其實都會派員參加去了解那也會適時做一些說明那這些案子我想到這個部裡面來應該還都會再出現所以我們一定會慎重的處理最後我講一個都市計畫的就是我們救走原國中的這個用地那我會再持續跟國土組這邊來做一個追蹤謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6029.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6044.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
好 謝謝李柏毅委員接下來我們請黃婕委員提出質詢好 謝謝主席 我們請部長部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6053.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6070.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
國土計畫法已經談論很久了因為從以前的區域計畫法到現在其實這個過程到現在其實大家的問題都差不多啦就是時間的問題因為其實距離這個我們要公告這個功能分區其實算一算也只剩下一年喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6071.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6096.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這是一個非常大家現在最擔心的所以今天排這個專案報告我想是有其必要因為我覺得這個時候是讓我們內政部好好的跟民眾來溝通然後讓大家知道你們是想要替大家解決這個大家的疑慮的我覺得這個時候是希望我們內政部可以藉由這個時間再跟大家多做溝通為什麼呢因為其實照你們的時程上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6096.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6112.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
去年4月之前其實各地方的縣市政府已經辦完所有的公能分區跟審議會的相關工作了也就是說這些整備工作其實在去年就已經差不多所謂第一輪的這個地方的溝通已經結束了但是地方溝通結束之後很顯然問題還是非常多因為這個過去不管是這個歷史的問題還是說各式各樣的沒有去處理的從山區農區各種狀況太多了八百種 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6126.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6151.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
可是到現在好像辦完了一輪說明會還沒有辦法給大家一個比較正式的指導原則那這是我們現在很擔心的因為地方上的民眾其實大家的聲音非常多到底該怎麼辦然後時間剩下一年到底夠不夠我想這是大家最擔心的所以我想先問一下因為到現在距離一年了可是真的送上來的地方政府只有四個 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6152.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6169.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
只有4個縣市也就是說我們22縣市裡面還有18個縣市還沒有送上來那接下來該怎麼辦呢我想先問一下部長說現在地方政府的反應大概是樣態為何遲遲沒有送審的原因大致有哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6170.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6200.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
倒不是說地方政府遲遲不送審因為本來就是在今年的上半年預計的這個期程各縣市會送進來那目前已經送進來3個那依照因為也誠如剛剛委員說之前的程序基本上完成書圖包括公聽會等等所以現在是在做收斂把資料送到部裡面來做審議的一個程序那當然地方在這個過程裡面有發現很多的一個意見因為民眾看到圖了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6200.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6201.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
是否就這個問題等一下也請部長再跟大家說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6224.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6251.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那其實原則上是我們都是可以容許因為現在是一個大分區大家都會把它跟現在的都市計畫的那個非常嚴格管制的這種土地使用分區把它兩個混在一起談所以在國土計畫裡面是一個大分區大分區下面去做容許的一個使用那你原本的一個使用未來能不能同樣的去做這個土地使用的話就是在那個分區的 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6252.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6252.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
確實這是一個現在最大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6268.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6287.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以其實剛剛部長也有提到說這個就是要回歸到接下來下一步就是這些土地使用分區的管制的規則那我現在就是想要問這個比較細節的部分了就是說其實我們內政部有把這個土地使用分區的管制規則其實你們是有上網公告的你們的草案也公告了對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6290.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6301.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那現在公告之後那請問就是有什麼至愛難行之處嗎還是這個原則大概就是接下來會使用這樣的規則呢是那個有地方有反映的一些問題我請署長來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6304.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6330.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
跟委員報告其實這個土地使用管制規則跟地方政府其實開過非常多次會討論但是我們知道對於一般民眾來講他如果不理解這一套的操作規則其實他還是會有諸多的疑慮所以跟委員報告其實我們過程當中現在目前幾乎都有在持續收到民眾或是相關團體的陳情意見那這些我們都會逐一來解釋來做處理我們跟委員報告第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6331.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6353.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
新舊的土地使用分區一定是銜接的不會讓它直接只有一個新的分區我看不到舊的分區舊的還是會保留如果你依據舊的這個和繼續做相關的依舊的規定繼續做使用這個沒有問題你還是繼續申請除非你有要轉換到新的分區你要做新的分區的容許使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6354.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6377.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
才會有這類的問題但是許多民眾還是不理解第二個許多民眾還是期待他的土地發展有他一定的未來性沒錯那這個也是他們另外那這當然也是我們在這過程當中要不斷的協助地方去提出比較好的這個規劃跟見解那這一部分我想在我們會逐步的收斂以後如果有需要做修正的我們還是會進行相關的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6377.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6405.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
好 謝謝署長其實你提到就是我們現在各區的民眾的一些問題啦就是說這個所謂的未來性是什麼因為我們當然知道保育很重要但是地方的這些資源的保育自然資源的保育不希望跟生存權是漢格的那我覺得這個是接下來這一年來你們最重要的功課那所以我希望是接下來不知道你們有什麼就是會跟各縣市溝通的一些程序可不可以跟大家說明你們接下來的溝通的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6406.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6423.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
跟委員報告其實在接下來他們如果送上來審查的時候那其實當然我們會透過這個審查委員會那跟地方政府跟這陳請的人民都會有繼續持續的這個溝通進行審議那第二個就是說我們跟地方政府每個月都會召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6424.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6451.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
進度追蹤。其實地方政府也不斷的會提出他們的一些意見那這些就是我們在這過程當中都會持續的了解地方發展所需要的這些項目那這些有一些可以採納的我們也建議他在上來的時候適時的提出我們也會進行討論修正那如果的確是有民眾的誤解或是的確那有自愛難行我們當然也會跟這個地方政府跟民眾同意的來做說明我想這一點我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6452.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6464.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
一定會持續的努力去做我覺得其實各縣市如果有一些基本的通案性的原則已經收攏了那我覺得這些其實是可以讓各縣市先知道這個基本原則為何可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6465.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6488.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我想當然可以那第二個我跟委員說明一下如果要跟民眾解釋的話很簡單就是可以跟他說明未來在國土計畫上路之後會有一個叫做國土計畫的功能分區證明會有一個叫做國土計畫功能分區證明那在那個功能分區證明裡面會去標註它原本的分區 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6489.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6490.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
好 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6515.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6518.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
謝謝黃婕委員接下來我們請徐欣盈委員提出質詢主席本席想請林部長部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6543.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6558.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
委員好部長好昨天內政部好像有發個新聞稿有關這個社會住宅租金分級收費原則的部分這個部分用意非常好主要保障我們人民權益以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6558.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6559.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6577.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6597.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
是採用身份別來判定。那我想部長您當過縣長應該也碰過很多我們有很多民眾他的身份別可能不符合低收入戶或中低收入戶可是實際上他是真的很困苦甚至所得非常低的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6598.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6612.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以在這種情形下本席希望我們除了身分別之外可以也採用所得別來做判定可不可以雙軌進行我們本來的方案就是雙軌等於是身分別跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6619.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6641.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
就是他現況比如說像台北跟桃園他們有身分別他就繼續可以用身分別對這是雙軌所得別對不起所以所得別跟身分別對這兩個只要有一個適用他都可以我跟委員報告一下是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6643.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6666.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我們的一個政策目標是什麼就是減輕社宅居住戶的負擔那這個照顧低薪青年跟別人戶所以減輕負擔是重點那所以剛剛在講說我們把那個居住的判定先判定生就是他合不合乎資格的部分我們現在是把整個居住的負擔呢從過去百分之三十做起的我現在先就 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6668.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6671.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
地方政府要用身分別他現在有用身分別就繼續下去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6687.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6710.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這個兩個東西其實不穩定不抵觸那雙軌進行喔?它本來就可以對我們要求的是什麼?我們要求我們訂的這個叫做天花板在這個天花板以下都可以?都可以就是說我們要求地方政府對於社宅住戶的負擔不得高於我們現在訂的這個標準那它要比較更低當然是可以接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6710.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6730.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
不是負擔我們現在是判定然後判定之後接著第二個你們昨天有提出說你們現行的是打折嘛比原定的打折但是有一個問題是他是現有的社會住宅的住戶那對他的這個租金不能適用你們新訂的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6734.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6749.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以各縣市如果覺得可以我們就可以按照我們內政部新訂的現在本來就可以因為我看你們的新聞稿內容還有那個草案並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6754.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6769.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這是吳署長好 謝謝感謝委員其實因為各縣市的狀況的確都有點差異所以我們在草案裡面其實有說如果你現有是採用這個所得級別那其實原則上我們是你還可以繼續採集因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6771.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6789.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
尊重然後你可以繼續產所以我跟委員報告就雙軌的進行的雙軌了那我現在要講的是你的那個收的租金你們現在有打折嘛那你要求現有的你除非你解約之後再重新才可以採用新的可是他解約之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6790.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6790.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
所以我現在還在續約期還是可以續約的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6808.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6828.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
他續約的時候應該可以採用新的收費標準吧所以我們也是尊重所以這個都尊重地方政府我們是希望是說他可以理解過去的所得級別其實產生認定上很大的困擾因為只憑報稅那個事其實會產生很大的問題只憑報稅是很大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6828.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6841.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
所以這一塊地方政府有他的權限那接著第二個本席也想請教就是現在梅雨季梅雨季跟颱風季快到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6842.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6857.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我們全國很多有抽水站的地區都是一煙水的地區本席看到審計部的審核報告裡面有講到我們全國在都市計畫區內有210座的抽水站 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6861.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6885.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
以一般委託的專業報告來說這個沖水站只要免滿20年就應該要派換、要更新但是目前在整個都市計畫區內還有72座的超過20年的沖水站沒有補助辦理更新如果我們馬上梅雨季、颱風季來 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6888.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6915.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
這個會來不及這個部分是不是可以請部長這邊我們能夠盡快的能夠提供就是能夠補助這個經費委員報告兩部分第一個是這些抽水站有分成兩部分一部分可能是我們內政部的那另外有一部分可能是水利署的不太一樣那第二個是所以你們內政部的全部20年以上的你們都有更新汰換了 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6916.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6941.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我們陸陸續續陸陸續續陸陸續續到什麼時候因為本席手上的資料你們在前瞻計畫裡面有很多你們是沒有用在這一塊所以你陸陸續續你今年沒雨季而且我想部長你知道就這一兩年那個雨一下它不是按照我們過去的經驗在下的它一下就整個非常大所以這一塊一定要預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6943.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6956.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我跟您報告一下,這些車水站,因為我擔任過地方政府,這些車水站絕對是必須平常就在維管,而且它必須保持百分之百的運作,它必須要頗善運作,不可能讓它壞掉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6962.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6976.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
但是我指的是20年以上的20年以上他隨時有壞掉的風險的應該要汰換更新的所以這一塊部長如果承諾屬於內政部的管轄範圍內的 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6978.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6993.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
你都有的話那我們是非常肯定的我們是非常肯定千萬不要到五六月開始我們這個聽到哪裡下雨然後這個大淹水這個抽水站它不能運作這一塊我們一定要預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6994.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6996.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
您對於這個中選會的選政選務合一您的看法怎麼樣?中選會 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7021.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7034.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
選政選務也就是說現在的選務都是在中選會但是很多的法令選罷法什麼的都在內政部所以選政選務合一您的看法如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7038.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7055.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這個我想最主要為什麼在內政部是因為內政部我們統轄的這個範圍另外民政也是內政部所轄管但是因為民眾都期待我們有一個公正的對辦理整個選政選務的一個單位而且世界各國選政選務都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7058.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7058.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
聽起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7080.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7089.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
是這樣子,因為在內政部裡面我們比較好去整個統甲,因為包括警政但是很多選務也不是你在辦啊沒有,在地方政府基本上是民政系統在辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7092.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7121.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
但是是中選會,選務都是中選會在管啊?選務是所謂的中選會在管,沒有錯所以中選會它配接民政,你們也配接民政對,你看在地方真正在處理選政的話就是民政系統然後另外就是包括像警政的系統然後另外就是比較多公務人員的系統那這一部分其實都在整個市政府的管轄之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7121.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7146.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
對,但是整個選務工作大家都希望是一個中立的一個公正的單位嘛所以這一塊現在中選會是獨立機關但是選政選務沒合一嘛我現在問題就是選政選務合一你的態度你也認為可以合一嘛因為世界各國都合一只有台灣不合一啊這個每個世界的狀況這個可能狀況不太一樣謝謝委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7150.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7151.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7180.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7184.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
好,謝謝主席。主席我們有請我們部長。好,部長有請喔。好,委員好。部長早安。部長,呃,當時我們的祖先齁,不管是學生還是客家人齁,早期這樣子翻山越嶺,渡過黑水高來到這塊土地來生活,其實最主要就是因為要尋找一塊地可以養家嘛,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7223.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7238.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
國民政府建在臺灣的時候其實所做的也都是在做土地的改革不管是375或者是跟著幾點之類的事情那現在目前民進黨政府也在處理這個地的問題不管是種田還是開工業區不過這都是在跟人民搶地 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7239.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7254.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
不過博本席對於這一切的作為我一個支持的原因就是因為希望讓這個國家未來有方向、有未來、有前瞻所以《國土計畫法》的實施我想是可以讓台灣可以獲得永久發展的這個機會我想這方面是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7256.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7279.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
不過國土計畫法從2016年5月1號開始實施之後它分三個階段嘛第一個階段是在兩年內要公告實施全國國土計畫那第二個階段是在第一階段公告三年內要公告我們縣市的國土計畫不過在這個公告之後發生很多的抗爭很多農民都要上街頭部長你知道發生什麼事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7283.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7306.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我想最主要是跟過去的一個使用的一個習慣跟認知這個有所一些這個意見那所以在這個第二階段這個縣市政府公告這個國土計畫分區之後大家看到那個圖然後這個瞭解到說好像他有一些疑問所以當然有一些澄清的這些問題出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7307.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7324.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
像很多農民在這個第一階段那個國土一的那個土地公聽會就發現世界土地無意境的被化作在國保一裡面他擔心他全體會受損嘛所以揚言要抗爭到底不過國保一的部分是他本來就是保育區的土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7324.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7344.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
是的,所以這個在劃定的過程裡面有沒有考慮到後續的賠償的問題?要怎麼補償他們?委員這個有兩件事,第一個是他本來在非都市土地裡面,他就是保育區所以你去把他談到所謂的補償,這是可能不要這樣子談會比較適合,因為他本來就是保育區 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7346.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7347.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那到現在還沒有爭議事件發生? |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7370.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7390.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
現在當然陸陸續續當然會有我想那個國土署署長應該也常收到很多的澄清案對不對那我要跟你報告這個是非常正常的因為我們在特地不要講說非都啦不要講說國土計畫其實在一般的都市計畫區裡面每次在檢討的時候都有很多的澄清案是 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7391.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7407.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
所以部長本席想表達的是說我們在明年5月1號就要開始執行就要上路那在這麼多正義都還沒有得到民眾的能夠理解之前你這樣冒然的上路我想再配套就是也都還沒有完整情況這樣執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7409.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7434.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
你不覺得這樣是會造成更多的委員會嗎?剛剛我們在書面或者是口頭報告裡面其實都有說過其實這個國土計畫法的一個訂定還有包括它實施的一個期程其實已經有一段時間所以並不是倉促上路那第二個當然它有許多的一個意見反映出來那我們就針對這些意見把它一一的做彙整跟處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7435.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7461.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
所以意見跟問題也在收斂我想這是一定的一個過程跟進展所以部長我們民進黨籍的陳平飛委員也提到其實國土計畫法真的是利益良善旨在確保我們的國土安全然後保護我們的環境跟我們的自然還有我們的人文資產這個方向是對的但是因為它的配套措施不明中間地方的事權不一導致民眾無所適從無頭蒼蠅 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7463.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7477.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
如果在明年的五六一號草率上路恐怕引發更多的民怨所以具體建立應該延後上路等待配套完成再執行這個是陳鼎輝委員所提到的其實部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7481.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7496.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
其實本席要求的跟陳林北委員的不太一樣其實我本席要求的其實是應該要先通過國土計畫土地使用管制規則你要讓民眾先知道自己的權利在哪裡再來實行這一塊部長請問這個規則什麼時候可以通過管制規則現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7506.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7529.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
兩個東西第一個國土計畫法已經頒布實施第二個管制規則現在我們擬定好現在正在進行預告的一個程序所以剛剛在講這個國土計畫的功能分區那個也是在整個的一個推動執行的一個程序裡面那個在前面現在管制一定會在前面所以何時能夠通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7530.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7556.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
預告的程序現在就是在進行法制的一個程序現在民眾知道說他既能做什麼不能做什麼這個我覺得比較重要今年內一定會公告另外依據我們國土計畫法第32條命規定因為建築物或者建地會於區域敏感地區必須遷移或者變更要予以補償所以成立一個叫做國土永續發展基金是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7557.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7563.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那依照我們國土計畫法裡面第4條規定未來要有500億的基金那部長現在我們從2016年實行到現在我們基金多少了?300億 現在有300億 要不要交保分的?主年部 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7574.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7574.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7589.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7609.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
所以我想要再請教一下部長就是部長我們在內政部的報告裡面有提到這個透過計畫或擬定土地使用管制規定協助未登記工廠、住宿、寺廟、存有建物、租屋約、國有土地等既有土地使用輔導機制這部分本席要給予肯定因為部長知道台東有一間廳後宮 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7612.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7630.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
臺東一般都是臺東最早的寺廟也是臺東縣的宗教信仰的中心他非常的重要不過因為時空背景關係他有土地被國家用去了山用去了後來在臺東縣政府記憶作為底下那成為臺東第一宗第一宗還地於廟的案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7630.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7650.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
不過現在還是有勢比的現有土地因為地方政府對法規仍存有疑慮而尚未返還這部分廟方也跟北京這邊來陳請希望能夠請部長能夠派專員來協助不論這些土地從日本時代日治時代就是天后宮的也很早就有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7652.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7661.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
是依照我們的判限20號的這個執意會讓廟方有權返還那本席這邊邀請部長給予協助讓土地可以還給臺東天后宮可以嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7663.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7664.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
謝謝黃建斌委員 下一位張志倫委員請提出質詢 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7699.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7704.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
主席好 各位委員 各位媒體先進 大家早安 大家好是不是我們請部長部長有請 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7712.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7734.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
部長早我首先第一個要請教部長的是說有關於這個內政部有關於就是都更方面是我們全民都很關心的尤其雙北的部分老舊建築非常的多那超過40年50年60年上房子大家都知道那我想要請教一下就是有關於這個都市更新的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7734.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7746.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
內政部中央的部分是如何來協助地方來做推動都更因為我自己本身去了解了一下這一部分是不是說中央都請地方來自行來做都市更新的一些處理跟進度跟目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7749.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7774.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我想有兩個部分第一個當然是需要中央跟地方一起合作地方政府因為是在地所以他們也更了解所以這是一部分第二個部分是中央我們透過住都中心在推動公辦的一個獨耕所以這個就是比較會有一些所謂的利用我們國共有的一個土地來做策略性獨耕 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7775.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7799.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
好謝謝部長這邊就是要跟部長拜託就是說中央地方要一起合作因為其實都更的部分我們一般民眾的心裡就覺得都更花的時間非常長而且都更成功的機率非常的低所以這邊我是大膽跟我們的部長建議一個東西就是說在都更的實施方法裡面有分兩種一種叫做權力變換另一種叫做協議合建那這兩種方式我跟部長簡單報告一下權力變換就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7800.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7820.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
就是說依照政府中央規定的一個辦法來跟實施者來做一個這個都市更新的一個方式那協議合建就是說跟實施者兩方或是跟講白的建設公司有一個合意的方式來做都跟的合作那在中間有一個比較特別的點有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7821.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7822.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7843.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7863.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7864.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7878.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
跟委員報告,其實當時應該是這麼說啦,因為協議合建過去在不是只有都更,在一般的建案也出現所以他會比照的是在跟過去一般在土地的協議合建裡面同等的這個減增的一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7880.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7908.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
那因為權力變換的確更困難因為委員也知道它就是一個立體式的一個權力變換所以當時的獨共條約才會特別把它提高那當然過程當中就會產生像委員所講的有些地主就會在這身份中一直希望轉換到一個對他比較有利的這個條件那這個部分會涉及到跟這個財政部這邊他所謂稅賦認定的一個一個出發所以基本基本減徵的一個目標的出發點會不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7909.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7937.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
所以這個部分的確我們會再來跟財政部來溝通看看對所以這邊一定要拜託部長因為都更如果是都更實施都非常的順利本席也不會來跟你拜託這件事情就是因為都更現在很多的這個私地主就是遇到了這個他們一開始都更要拿出錢要繳出一陣子稅而造成他們的卻步或是對於都更轉身懷疑所以這個部分一定要拜託部長這邊來協助這個部分是不是可以來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7939.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7953.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好,那第二個我來請教部長的部分就是說因為我看到我們中央其實很不錯的就是我們有一個叫做《交通安全基本法》它有在校園周邊計行車安全道路改善計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7954.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7973.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那這個計畫當時的經費是50億,它主要是保護學童們在出了學校了以後,他所有周邊的這個安全,我覺得這對尤其最近大家知道嘛,這個很多的小朋友都是人民非常重視的一個部分,那請問這50億的部分現在還剩多少錢可以使用? |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7975.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7991.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
都分配完了那我請教一下齁我在我查新聞報導裡面好像新北市使用的金額比較相對較低請問有這樣的情況嗎我們可能要查一下不過有可能有這個狀況那這個最重要的就是地方政府要把案子提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7992.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8015.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
所以這個要拜託部長因為新北市有400多萬的人口然後當然學生數應該也是全台灣前幾名的那當然新北市政府如果他在申請這些補助案如果經費是少的那其實相對於讓大家會覺得絕大多數的孩童他是沒有申請到這個經費他是沒有受到保護的這個新北市政府要認真一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8016.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8032.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
中央跟地方要合作要去溝通啦因為當然我們需要說全台灣每個地方的小孩都可以照顧到可是要當作新北市政府他如果在申請的部分我覺得因為我現在是立法委員我也要拜託部長說如果中央應該要跟新北市政府來協調說怎麼樣去申請這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8035.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8036.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
委員你可能誤解了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8061.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8082.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這個比較重要的是地方政府要把案子提出來地方政府如果不把案子提出來的話中央政府不可能去幫他做規劃的所以中央跟地方的溝通上是不是有出了什麼樣的問題因為我想不應該有問題因為新北市是直轄市而且新北市對相關的一個政策應該非常的了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8083.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8107.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
第二是中央的經費沒有問題過去50億那未來是4年400億一年有100億的經費所以錢都不是問題那我個人在去年的時候也到新北市許多的一個校園去做這個人本環境的一個視察我也一再的跟新北市政府來提經費不是問題你盡量提出來而且我們希望是一種連續性的這種改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8108.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8122.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
在地方政委最重要的是需要三個單位的配合第一個是學校教育單位第二個是公務單位第三個是交通單位所以我們非常希望能夠多提一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8124.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8147.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
還有一個是如果是在交通部所列管的這些重點的危險入口的一個改善的話那個中央是百分之百補助所以錢不是問題所以也請委員這邊可以跟新北市政府建議他們能夠這個多多的提案我們會全力來支持好謝謝部長那部長的意思是說未來每年大概都會有關於這個行人 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8150.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8173.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
行能交通安全的環境改善計畫四年有400億,一年100億,內政部是260億,然後交通部是140億。好,謝謝部長。那這部分我也會跟中央地方起來合作,因為就是比較擔心說新北市的申請的這個預算是比較低的。那所有小朋友,而且因為我本身的學習在中和,所以中和比較特別啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8173.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8174.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我們希望地方政府提起提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8207.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8207.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8585.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8586.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
主席、議會同仁、內政部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8607.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8607.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
國土計畫法 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8626.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8640.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這造成民眾很多的意見這過去又加上我們的疫情期間的三年的空窗期那本席的提議是不是我們把它延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8642.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8656.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
延長兩年才來做實施的動作因為這段空窗期大家疫情的時間大家都停擺那是不是請部長回答還是署長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8659.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8677.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
委員的意見我想我們尊重不過這因為是依法然後這個法定的一個期程所以我們相關的一個計畫的程序還有包括配套的執法的部分我們都依照既定的行程往前走那委員的意見我們予以尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8678.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8693.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
因為在我的選區尤其三峽這個地方開了兩場協調會那當初的協調會是我們所有的農民他們都一致的反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8694.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8699.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那大家的溝通協調還不成熟那這樣貿然實施的話會造成全國很多農民大家都是同樣的他們的疫情還是沒辦法說去接受所以說在這個部分你貿然實施對全國的農民他們的打擊會更大所以說阿本席這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8718.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8719.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
委員會主任委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8731.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8757.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
感謝委員其實在三峽的那兩場其實我們也有關注他提出來的意見包括不管三峽還是在我們北南這裡大概有一些概念是一致就過去在農業的部分有一些產製除銷是不能放在一起的所以導致很多農民我實際工作但是我要做地也好還是我要去做其他的工廠也好他的土地都不能合法 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8758.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8785.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
他們更擔心說我如果併到國土計畫以後是不是從此就沒有機會了那第二個就是說我以後本來有預期要被納到都市計畫或是納到這個未來的開發區的那會不會因為國土計畫發布以後就沒有了這些都沒有了其實來自於這兩個最大的爭端那產製除消的部分我們已經跟這兩年跟農委會跟農業部都有溝通慢慢他們也在部分都已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8786.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8814.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
同意來鬆綁這其實會對於未來的國土計畫在實施的時候反而農民會得到比較大的這個改善就產製除消未來有機會可以合在一起那第二個就是說對於未來發展區的部分因為這個我們基本上都有尊重地方它如果有列入未來的城鄉發展區或是說它是未來發展區的話其實在國土計畫裡面它是尊重的就保留它還有一些機會不過就像委員所講的鄉鄉聽聽沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8817.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8833.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
他需要更多的時間去溝通讓他理解這件事情就是第一個權力沒有受損第二個過去有一些陳年的老問題沒解決了我們來協助來解決第三個也保留他未來可以發展的機會我想這些都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8834.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8853.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
在這過程當中已經盡可能去做到這個發展的彈性但是的確還需要更多時間讓民眾了解這樣的一個因為現在農民受關心的有很多人我們的農業加工以及農業設施你國土規劃你貿然實施你跟農業部大家還要取得一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8854.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8854.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
委員會主任委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8881.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8881.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8898.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8899.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這點是本省的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8916.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8946.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我贊成委員剛才說的說明就是其實這需要更多的一個協調、努力跟溝通讓民眾能夠更多的一個理解其實也不單單是農民最主要是民眾他擔心的是他現在的使用在未來能不能繼續使用第二個是他有沒有未來的可能性這一點其實不用擔心也是因為大家歡迎陳情出來之後我們行政部門、中央跟地方才有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8946.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8960.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
正對這些問題去尋求討論一個解套或者是一個比較好的一個機制比如說像剛剛在講未來我們會有一個國土功能分區的登記證明書會有一個證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8963.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8987.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
這證明除了未來國土計畫實施之後的分區之外呢﹐它也會有現在現況的分區﹐所以不會影響到它在現況的使用。這點可以放心。好,謝謝。感謝部長、社民、謝謝。我請我們的原住民委員會。好,署長有請喔。好,那部長你先回座好了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8993.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8994.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9012.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9027.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
因為原住民那邊是一個生態公園,生態公園是露天的,但是沒有紀委所對新北市原住民的情誼 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9028.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9029.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9051.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9076.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
好,針對這個部分,我們會裡面在113年有推動這個建制原住民族族群族流化友善空間的這個計畫那剛委員提的這部分我們會再選擇一個適當的時間跟新北市政府來到去選擇一個適宜的地點來討論那如果有適宜的地點的話,後續的那個計畫看怎麼樣提出來促成這個我們會待會去給業務單位來做一個依據來做執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9078.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9105.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
因為我在上一屆我就提出了所以我們要考慮到我們原住民在山林部落這個地方是人口最多尤其在土層、樹林所以推動原住民的紀委所是一個必然性所以在這個部分請我們中央一定要重視我們目前也是請地方政府來進行博用的事情土地博用的事情一定要積極好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9111.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9122.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
好,謝謝吳清穎委員好,因為剛剛質詢順序有調換所以本席才是我們先處理臨時提案那現在請這個宣讀今天有8個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9126.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9143.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
第1案有見臺灣知識經濟旗艦園區自民國9393年4月8日獲行政院合定為國家重大建設計畫後歷時多年召開專案小組會議然多有議題重複討論或多次確認如說明計畫定位地主意願與調查農耕需求確認計畫供應性必要性等 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9143.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9155.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
且過往提報內政部審議資料及相關處理情形說明文件需寫函報中央相關部會如農業部、交通部、經濟部、客委會、地政司等確認修正情形並施確認後方能召開審議審議過程以徵詢意見並獲公示又再含循 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9158.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9184.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
過程又再衍生新的不同意見至國家重大建設計畫一直延宕未決地方民眾積極關心此案．時有必要加速推進又新竹縣政府已於今年1月1專案小組第13次會議紀錄提交臺灣知識經濟旗艦園區修正計畫書及補充文件原提案要求內政部於2個月內邀集相關部會審議並於會議中針對意見提出討論與回應必加速此案審議進度提案人委員徐新寅等3人 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9185.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9201.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
第二案國土計畫法第45條規定中央主管機關於本法施行後2年內公告實施全國國土計畫指向市縣市主管機關應於全國國土計畫公告實施後3年內以中央主管機關指定之日期並公告實施指向市縣市國土計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9202.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9226.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
並備質詢是縣市國土計畫公告實施後4年內．以中央主管機關指定之日期．並公告國土功能分區圖．中上國土計畫最遲應在114年4月30日前完成公告．由地方政府須在今年6月底前將縣市國土功能分區圖提交內政部．為直至113年3月15日．僅有聯商縣、金門縣及花蓮縣等3縣政府提送國土功能分區圖草案至內政部進行審議． |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9228.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9241.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
為加強新制國土計畫及民眾參與．避免計畫草率上路引起民怨．原此建起內政部及國土管理署．積極協助各地方縣市政府．並加強與地方民眾之協調與溝通提案人委員王美惠等3人 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9242.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9262.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
第三案關於內政部擬議社會住宅租金分級收費原則為保障人民權益與社會住宅建置的利益租金優惠的認定標準因採身分別與所得別雙軌並行兼顧的做法另外為保障現住戶的權益租金分級收費優惠實施後對於現住戶應一體適用提案人委員徐欣穎等三人 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9263.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9284.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
第4案建於民國105年12月23日修正之住宅法第25條第三項規定社會住宅成租者之租金計算中央儲管機關應斟酌成租者所得狀況負擔能力及市場行情定定分級收費原則並定期檢討之復所謂分級收費細指依據成租人不同之經濟量能與其可負擔之程度予以分級定定房屋租金 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9284.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9304.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
此關當時附帶決議要求承租住戶之租金應該再依據承租戶之所得水準再給予分級至0同法第4條第二項雖有列舉經濟或社會弱勢者身份之種類然其僅涉及入住社會住宅之優先性而與租金多寡分屬二事違查目前內政部人明採身份別打 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9304.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9305.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
提交進度報告於本案提案委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9335.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9353.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
第5案20212021年住宅法第25條修正明定社會住宅成租者之租金計算﹐中央主管機關應斟酌成租者所得狀況﹐負擔能力及市場行情﹐訂定分級收費原則並定期檢討之﹐且該次修法附帶決議中明確要求﹐訂定租金之收費基準時應考量成租者收入上限﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9353.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9379.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
新建社會住宅的目的是為了讓有需求的民眾住得起因此以收入作為衡量標準分成不同收費級距來確保租金不會超過收入其合理支付能力住宅法修正至今將近3年內政部堅持採身份別而非收入分級計算設宅租金與地方政府多次延伸未取得共識而由於中央興辦設宅將陸續完工2024年2月21日內政部邀請地方政府召開社會住宅租金分級收費原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9380.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9400.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
草案嚴商會議決議以身份別施價打折作為社宅租金收費標準並預計於2024年下半年實施以身份別作為收費標準將難以顧及低薪青年與邊緣弱勢也將造成台北市、新北市、桃園市三個採一收入分級租金限時一事兩制更違反2021年住宅法25條修法議旨為落實2021年住宅法25條立法議旨讓民眾住得起 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9404.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9433.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
建請內政部依收入分及租金作為住宅收費標準．並於一個月內將辦理情形送交內政委員會提案人牛許廷委員等5人。第6案國土計畫法自105年5月1日施行至今．內政部行同執霞市縣市政府持續推動國土計畫相關工作．以公告實施全國國土計畫及執霞市縣市國土計畫目前為國土功能分區圖繪製階段．各縣市政府遂以完成國土功能分區圖草案繪製及公開展覽作業． |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9434.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9453.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
為大多數以正由各該國土計畫審議會審議中﹐截至113年3月15日僅有連江縣、金門縣及花蓮縣等三縣政府提送國土功能分居土草案之內政部進行審議。為尊重原住民族土地傳統文化﹐內政部與全國國土計畫暫明原住民族土地相關規劃原則及特殊國土功能分居化設條件。 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9455.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9478.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
並自110年起專案補助原鄉縣市政府辦理原住民族部落環境基本調查部落溝通及國土功能分區劃設作業並會同原住民族委員會嚴定完成原住民族土地使用管制規則草案為部落族人對於國土計畫是否能協助既有土地兼無合法同時滿足部落未來居住及產業發展的需求仍有疑問各縣市政府雖已與部落召開多場說明會 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9479.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9505.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
但多數族人仍表達政府應加強國土計畫制度與規定的說明與溝通考量國土計畫為部落多年來少有的土地管理制度變革自應讓部落族人有更多的瞭解及參與也要求內政部及原住民族委員會應加強與部落的溝通及正確資訊的傳達以取得族人共識及瞭解提案人委員吳啓明等6人第7案第一段同第6案第一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9506.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9525.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
第二段,其中,國土保育地區之發射條件系參考既有應地事業法規所發射之保護域區域,例如保安林、國有林、事業區、河川區域、飲用水水源水質保護區等環境敏感圖資,為縣市政府與會智及審議過程持續接獲民眾陳情,部分圖資因經度不一且年代久遠與現況不符, |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9527.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9553.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
此外民眾不瞭解國土保育地區得否繼續從事經營農業或建築使用擔心國土計畫一旦正式實施既有合法權益將受損以致人心惶惶為使國土計畫順利施行內政部應持續積極與各界溝通國土計畫之制度與相關規定增進民眾瞭解及傳達正確資訊以獲取社會公視及多數民眾理解以利後續國土計畫之推動及施行提案人委員吳啟明等6人 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9554.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9574.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
第8案第一段同第6案第一段請參議員第二段其中農業發展地區系依照內政部及農業部所討論之通案性劃設條件劃設再由縣市政府農業單位檢視劃設成果違查部分縣市依照通案性劃設條件劃設大量第一類第二類農業發展地區除縣市政府認為會影響該縣市長遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9577.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9601.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
發展過程中亦多有接獲民眾陳情認為農業發展地區與現況農業使用範圍有所出入且未來農地無法變更為建築用地將影響農地價格及農民權益因農地管制政策影響廣大農民權益內政部應持續積極與各界溝通加強說明以獲取社會共識及多數民眾理解以利後續國土計畫之推動及施行提案人委員吳啟明等6人宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9604.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9615.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
好這個經過內政部跟各體委員溝通沒有任何文字修正所以1到8我們就召喚通過請問在場委員有沒有意見沒有沒有好我們通過謝謝好現在我們繼續質詢接下來有請中嘉賓委員上來質詢謝謝我先把這處理完 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9638.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9651.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
主席、政務委員先進、列席政府監管署長、官員、會長、共同夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請林部長跟吳署長好了林部長、吳署長有請喔部長好、署長好部長當過基隆市市長請問一下基隆河有沒有留過基隆市 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9663.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9667.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
今天我要談的就是請教我們國土管理當中的河川的部分來,我們請看一下一頁部長,你也看一下啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9688.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9688.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
提防蓋防汛道路可被行駛車輛 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9718.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9723.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
防汛道路防汛道路防汛道路防汛道路防汛道路防汛道路防汛道路防汛道路防汛道路 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9748.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9765.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
他在一定的一個條件下我們要讓水防道路啦讓一些工程車可以用那請問他的地使用用地是道路用地還是河川用地河川用地河川用地說得很好那河川用地可不可以做防汛道路以外的開闢道路開闢公路不行那河川範圍內可不可以蓋房子 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9772.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9772.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
臺灣的地理特質 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9789.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9818.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
雨季的時候呢河面很寬但是呢非雨季的時候呢河面就很窄它有個紅範區所以呢你看到這個裡面呢是不是有看到一些道路在愛寮溪的左邊這邊有道路嘛好那目前呢這些我們就是目前的河川的治理情況來看下一頁經過多年的治理之後啊你看到了齁在藍色的部分它是現在的行水然後呢我們畫了一個什麼愛寮堤防堤防蓋起來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9819.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9843.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以原來的河川區域線本來畫得很寬那現在蓋了堤防之後其實就保護了堤防這邊的道路所以這些道路現在本來是個很窄的防汛道路現在地方政府把它拓寬成2加2的四線道那請問部長按照你剛剛的說法河川區域線內用地是不是還是河川用地 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9846.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9848.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我不是水房的工程車喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9873.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9889.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
不過這一條,因為我對高屏東這邊不太...沒關係,我只說一段情況請問一下這一條是計畫道路嗎?是計畫道路他是計畫道路嗎?他是計畫道路,結果後來政府就把它開闢成四線道那署長講一下,你說這可不可以? |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9890.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9908.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我說明一下 這的確是因為兩個法之間 因為兩個互為特別法所以在這個過程當中 其實每次要開闢種都要雙方要協調要協調 但是你們是土地主管機關 是管理的這個用地的管理機關對 因為雙方互為特別法 那你要不要要求他把用地變更成道路用地 我說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9908.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9937.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
我先問一下嘛,要不要道路要不要又變成用地他有區分啦齁,如果你是都市計畫內,經過他同意其實那個就叫做都市計畫可是相對他要去檢討他的河川區域線沒有錯他要去重新檢討那一種重新檢討是經過他同意對,那要不要把用地變成道路用地如果經過他同意他確定可以調整河川區域線對那就可以變回都市計畫道路所以目前如果河川區域還沒調整之前他還不能辦理用地變更嗎對好很好,部長這我要答案喔民眾怎麼想 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9938.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9954.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這裡面的河川區域線你看到有房子喔房子有一部分落在河川區域線喔區域線以外的他可以改為建地區域線以外的他不能改為建地那不能建地可不可以修繕可不可以重新改建要經過他同意不只要他同意還要經過河川區域線的檢討他要經過用地的變更 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9957.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9985.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
是不是這樣子?好部長那我的結論來了好來我們往下看其實啊請部長部長請林部長目前因為你們主管全國的國土的管理啦其實目前我們知道經濟部水利署呢他們很積極的在檢討因為這幾年治水預算不斷的加不斷的加很多堤防都蓋好了堤防蓋好了之後呢其實啊原來劃定的河川區域線裡面其實可以稍微的重新檢討後把它用定性的做變更可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9990.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9995.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
當然可以啦,不過第一個啦委員可不可以跳到剛剛前面的這個圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9998.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10026.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
這個河川的區域線跟這個堤防之間的關係大概從水利單位他覺得那是一個緩衝區他也可以調對,他當然可以調他也願意調是,如果他願意調的話那個我們這邊地方政府也沒有什麼問題很好,就是這句話部長說的如果河川治理機關願意調你們願意配合辦理用地變更嗎?是不是?我們沒什麼問題很好!我就是要部長這句話因為呢請你們去檢討後也請水利單位檢討他們的河川區域我現在知道這邊卡在三個單位啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10027.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10047.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
水利單位他們在檢討核酸缺陷的時候呢因為路已經蓋好了但是呢他們還沒有去變更那他們把核酸缺陷內縮之後還要請地方政府依序提出用地變更到了內政部這邊要審查同意審查同意回序下之後才能搞用地變更的使用狀況按照後來的規方使用對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10049.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10069.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
所以這裏面其實內政部的關鍵角色沒有多少發動權在河川自理單位地方政府提報你們什麼進速審查可以嗎那這個案子拜託如果說水利單位已經把河川自理線內縮了地方政府也配合提供區域計畫法當中他辦理用地的變更申請內政部會承諾進速辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10071.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10072.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
接下來我們請張雅玲委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10105.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10118.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我們有請部長他沒有辦法下頁對那邊還是對不到欸有開了還是你幫我按謝謝幫我下頁 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10133.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10159.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
好,就是部長啊,就是上個禮拜啊其實我們在那個總諮詢的時候就有提到有一些要在公園的部分要去做一些調整嘛那我也非常高興的聽到就是警官就民間的團體已經告訴我們說在審查這個遊戲場的部分呢已經開始採納了這個自然鋪面啊還有遮陰設施啊這些相關的東西但是上次也在跟部長在那個院會的時候有討論到就是說我們其實也要來討論這個青少年的有青少年青少女的一個遊戲空間喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10161.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10187.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我想先讓部長看一下這個訊息這個調查報告就是從110年這個調查報告來看他們的健康行為我們的小孩子有四分之一都是過重的不管是國中或是高中生再來一個更可怕的事實是說他們每一天打電腦打電動超過兩小時等於是有而且是七成以上甚至有些在高中的時候是超過八成所以等於是說他們的休憩都是在用電腦或是打電打手機 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10188.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10214.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我們自己也都曾經是個青少年我們都非常清楚的知道我們需要跟人去做連結但是我們現在的小孩為什麼只能去玩這件事情呢為什麼他只能玩抖音玩滑手機第一個當然他上課時間非常長但是他們有沒有地方去這也是一個很大的問題我們不能夠只有一面的要求小孩不要去玩耍不要去玩這些手機要去自律我們應該提供給他更多的其他方案讓他可以跟朋友來做連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10215.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10237.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
所以我想要了解就是說上次在詢問這個遊戲場的部分的時候部長還有印象嗎?好那上次也有承諾說會針對一線是一遊戲場一個大型高的挑戰性的青少年青少女的遊戲場來做一個盤點所以我想要了解說現在的一個規劃進度大概是什麼時候會有一個結果那什麼時候會開始展開這個盤點呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10240.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10265.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我想這一部分其實並不困難因為我們本來就有相關的一個資料因為之前在做遊戲場的一個調查大概各縣市的狀況基本上都會掌握好所以這個評估這個一個縣市一個大的青少年的挑戰遊戲場大概一個月內可以提供給我相關的結果嗎他們有沒有其實我們查一下就知道那第二個是他們有沒有計畫我們可能詢問一下好那是那是聽起來好像是可以更快兩個禮拜是嗎有辦法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10270.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10292.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
我們先來詢問一下因為最主要是他們未來有沒有計畫現況的話當然是很快好那希望這個盤點我們在兩個禮拜之後就把相關的一些結果送到我們辦公室那接著就是說因為其實上次也有提到就是說大家應該要來蓋這個東西可是因為我過去在民間地方都不是很積極有的是因為預算不足也是缺乏方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10293.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10311.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
但是如果我們沒有積極行為最終受害的還是我們的孩子那上次院長跟部長也是有承諾過會來要做這個全國的整體規劃那我想針對的是說因為這個中央跟縣市的這個溝通機制我們要如何加強去督促我們的地方做這件事情呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10316.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10340.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
這個委員我跟你報告其實這個其實基本上比較多會是地方政府的職權我了解因為上次也有提到嘛所以我想我現在問的是說因為我從民間來的時候地方就是告訴我他沒有錢也不知道怎麼做那我們現在就講說中央是怎麼樣去協助這個溝通我們是可以再做什麼樣的事情督促他去往這個方向做因為最終受害的還是孩子啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10341.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10368.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我還是跟你報告一下其實基本上現在地方政府不至於說沒有錢也不至於說這個不知道怎麼做我想我們的認知可能是有落差啦那我想要知道的是說因為我聽到的就是這樣那我們還有什麼方法可以去督促他們因為事實上就是沒有做嘛我覺得政府必須要分責啦而不是地方政府什麼事情都說我中央政府要拿著那個一個什麼東西然後這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10371.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10373.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
國土管理委員會主任委員會主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10388.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10389.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我個人覺得比較好的方式是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10414.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10415.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
所以聽起來中央還是沒有角色欸? |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10434.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10448.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我再次強調就是地方政府必須要有一個更大的一個責任我覺得基本上如果說是沒有錢我覺得這是脫脫之詞因為中央對地方的補助非常非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10449.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10469.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我以前在當基隆市長的時候,基隆市的財政是全國第三大市市長我想念上次這個相關的內容回覆我都已經知道那我想要聽到就是說所以我們現在在中央這件事情我們要如何跟地方再去溝通所以因為現在聽起來就變成說好像只能民間自己不停的去跟地方溝通但是地方最後無作為的話我們也就只能這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10470.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10470.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10470.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10470.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10492.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10511.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
部長,我們是不是有一個人力可以來去協助他們?如果有任何的問題的時候,他們可以有地方去詢問?因為我們現在聽到就是中央跟地方的各縣市,六都可能都知道怎麼做,可是其他的就是有這個落差。沒關係,如果委員有這種積極願意要做的這種縣市,我想我們非常樂意來做基礎上的協助。 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10512.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10533.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
好,所以我們可以把相關的一些縣市來提供給部長來做參考嗎?可以,沒問題,比如說委員你如果有這樣子的一個訊息比如說比較積極主動的這個縣市委員也可以這個比如說辦個座談還是什麼,我們可以來參與然後他們有什麼問題我們可以來給予支持好,我了解,那我想我們之後可能再來討,詳細討論好不好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10539.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10543.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
謝謝政院委員：也謝謝部長署長接下來我們請蘇巧慧委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10548.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10548.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
國土計畫推動辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10575.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10601.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
讓社會各界地方鄉親其實是有非常多的紛擾那我想我們立法委員作為民意代表就是來這裡反映民意的首先我想第一個請問部長這個引起很多紛爭的就是當自己的住宅當自己的農地當自己的工廠被劃到與自己想像中或者期待中不一樣的分類範圍的時候所引起的紛爭嘛引起的反映 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10604.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10619.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
第一個問題是請問這個國土功能分區圖以使用地這個的繪製這個的繪圖是由哪個機關是中央還是地方有地方政府這有法規依據嗎有 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10620.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10621.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
當然這個並不正確當然並不正確吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10650.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10676.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
因為我們根據國土計畫把第22條非常明白的規定了前兩項的國土功能分區圖及使用圖的繪製之辦理機關制定方法等等中央主管機關地址而因此定的辦法其實就是直轄市地方縣市主管機關所以我在這裡先替你洗白第一條先替你說清楚講明白第一條可是接下來我就想要問中央的責任了 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10677.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10704.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
部長我們分了幾類哈這個我們因為國土計畫法之後其實把台灣的海江、海域、土地分成了四大類就是這四大類國土保育地區、海洋資源地區、農業發展地區、城鄉發展地區沒有錯嘛對不對然後每一類下面又因為它的性質不同所以我們給予不同的管制又分了1、2、3、4類對不對好那第一類如果是屬於D類的就是管制程度會比較多的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10705.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10707.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
目前還沒有,因為各縣市還沒有完全送過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10733.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10760.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
現在是草案他們要送進來審對啊但是他們送進來總是有一個版本的嘛你就應該先把那個版本送進來看看嘛沒有沒有看過送進來的版本我放給你看看為了今天我們特別準備資料你看看這是我們台灣的地圖嘛你知道我這條紅線畫出來是什麼嗎這條紅線是我把我把所有地方縣市政府直轄市政府所有填的國土保育區 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10762.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10764.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
他們畫的區畫出來以後中整起來以後台灣長這樣欸60%全部都變成國土保育區了這樣合理嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10772.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10779.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
國土保育區的第一類那我把國土保育區都畫進去了那它基本上也是過去的保育區的一個範圍過去的保育區全部都是還比較小 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10794.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10801.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
大部分是啦,都是有些不是啦我本來想說看看部長你會怎麼回答還是說署長你這邊會怎麼回答你怎麼敢說沒有啦,這條線畫出來的大部分都是山啦好,那我就要跟你跳下一張了下一張,你知道這是哪裡嗎這是我的選區因戈啦我的選區因戈,淵山堰水庫這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10817.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10827.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
旁邊的這一大塊地全部被劃為國土保育區的一類最嚴格限制的就是國保一啦那國保一以後會怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10829.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10849.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
國保1的限制還可以再蓋房子嗎還可以使用嗎好那請署長說明國保1因為國土保1地區大概因為台灣原來的山林地區大概就佔了73%是啦所以第二個就是說再加上原來在這個在相關的這個飲用水或是自來水對啦你的指引就是這樣寫的啦所以它是會因為這樣會被劃進來它是會被這樣劃進來好 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10855.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10882.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那在這裡面 效果勒 畫進去以後的效果 說明一下 如果他原有已經有申請合法建築過了 其實在我們發現其實陸陸續續都有 原有那他繼續從為原來是使用都沒有問題 所以既存的建物可以照現在使用方式繼續使用嗎 甚至包括買賣啊等等都可以嘛 對不對只是他不能做地木的變更 不能做其他 農地不能變工廠嘛 然後是住宅不能變商業 對不對 理論上是這樣嘛 對沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10884.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10898.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
好,那我給你看這塊地現在長,原來現況衛星圖給你看現在長什麼樣子現在你化為,不是你化為啦,現在經由新北市政府化為國寶一的因戈淵山淵水庫周圍地區的衛星圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10901.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10922.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
這完全就是住財的狀況啊人口之密集、農業之發展就是這樣的狀況啊所以他完全就符合你的但書嘛就是寄存事實他就是繼續使用嘛所以他心情很擔心說我糟糕了我是國寶一可是你又用但書事實上他又是這樣來使用那請問那我就反過來問那請問他畫了國寶一的 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10927.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10947.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
說明一下,因為他原來就是在相關的飲用水範圍﹖是啊﹖所以理論上他那邊應該要保護嘛說明一下,他的保護的標的是因為我不希望他有繼續製造新的這個水源污染的問題,所以他才會用這樣的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10948.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10954.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
在畫攝的時候 因為早期的圖其實畫的比較...比較沒有精準 為什麼說我們過程當中也是都有邀請像農業部、水利署或是環境部都要一起去檢視 結果檢視完他們還是認為的話 那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10966.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10995.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
在未來也可以透過他們自己的檢討需要再調整我同意啦我的每一個問題如果拆開來問的時候你都可以有答案回答我啦包括是說如果我要保育類的你就聽我說環境保護類的你就說我現在化了國保衣我如果是寄存這個在這裡的鄰里的居民的話你就說我現在有單書讓你可以繼續用合起來都沒有每一條都沒有問題啦但是合起來你就會覺得說我們做這件事情的目的到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10995.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11012.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
能達到的效果是什麼?所以追根究底來還包括了說現在的這個是地方政府化的而每一個地方政府又都會有不同的概念所以中規來講因為我今天是立法委員是國會議員我面對的是中央部會所以我想很中肯的給中央部會一個建議好嗎?我想建議的是我們那個指引齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11016.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11042.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
其實可以來認真的調整一下尤其是各地方政府收集來的版本如果有出現這樣子的狀況的它又不能夠真正的保護又引起鄉親的困擾那我們是不是有機會在這種既存事實已經存在你可以調查一次完以後我覺得我們的指引可以來做更細緻的討論也給地方政府說好那如果遇到這樣的狀況的時候你要怎麼畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11043.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11043.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
不然的話他就一句話就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11073.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11073.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
第三階段審議的時候我們會來做相關的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11089.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11113.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
而且最重要的是你知道公告這些東西給居民知道的時候其實透過的方式是什麼是地方政府透過公展或者是新聞媒體刊登或者舉辦說明會結果你知道像新北市政府是什麼嗎新北市政府一共就是只有在五月的時候在五月二十七號開始在城鄉發展局的官網公告三十天然後二十七到三十天在中國時報刊三天 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11115.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11117.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
謝謝蘇巧慧委員的質詢也謝謝部長跟署長接下來我們請徐巧欣委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11151.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11159.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
謝謝主席我想我們有請林耀昌部長還有那個國土署應該也可以請請部長跟署長部長好我想今天的8個臨時提案裡面還有好幾案都是大家很關心這個社會住宅的租金計算的部分我們昨天看到這個內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11176.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11198.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
有發一個新聞稿新聞稿上面寫發佈日期是3月19號那寫到這個所謂的社會住宅分級收費原則到底是要用身份別還是要用收入你們裡面提到說台北市跟桃園市政府表示支持認同並不反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11199.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11227.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
可是我們去看了瞭解一下這個2月21號今年這個相關的會議記錄裡面我們來看一下細節台北市政府當然他談到說認同這個草案的方向可是他有講到流程面在租金送不被查以後才能知道能不能夠優化但更重要的是第二點台北市目前現行入住社會住宅的成租戶是以所得分級的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11229.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11248.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
這個分類方式在最低一階的比率超過50%如果租金分級收費所得由分級改成身分別分級的話是否反而會造成部分無法取得弱勢資格但他其實經濟上有困難的成租戶是沒有辦法負擔租金 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11249.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11269.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
或者是經濟能力不差的弱勢戶反而有比較高的補貼情形所以台北市政府的同意是說全國有一致的修正方向同意但並不是說今天把所謂的分級從所得變成身份這個對台北市政府來說是有幫助的 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11269.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11291.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
再來,台北市政府目前的社會住宅是相較其他縣市比較多的而且像我自己的選區裡面像在信義區、廣慈、博愛園區它的這個社宅也有很多的租戶目前台灣的社會住宅發展還不錯的原因是因為裡面比較沒有被貼標籤化因為裡面有很多的年輕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11293.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11294.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
目前各社宅的租金收費模式按照收入別去計價的包含台北市、新北市、桃園也都是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11314.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11343.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那這些城市也當剛好都是目前全國社會住宅的數量比較多的這也意味著如果我們從收入別改成了身分別會影響到很多現在現有各縣市的收費標準那台北市政府從110年到現在跟國土署我們開了4次會那兩次都發函建議中央用分級所的制度或授權地方政府制定補貼那我們想要問一下到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11343.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11353.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
現在要採用身分別而不用收入的原因是什麼為什麼不採取台北、新北跟桃園目前的社宅收費方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11355.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11379.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
委員謝謝其實我們大家的一個政策目標都是一致的那我先澄清說明一點並不是把說身分別強制改成對不起 把收入別強制改成是身分別其實身分別跟收入別它可以同步持續 這個沒有問題也就是說現在台北市用身分別它未來如果它要對不起 它如果用所得別的話所得別的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11380.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11404.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
他未來要繼續用索德比 這個我們可以尊重那這次內政部我們的想法最主要是我們所訂定的這個有幾個配套他在訂的是一個天花板他訂的是一個天花板也就是我們目的是要去降低社會住宅的租金的負擔然後另外就是剛剛在提到的低薪的青年還有邊緣戶所以我們是把整個的住宅的負擔把它往下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11405.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11432.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
過去我們在做計算基準的時候是用所得的收入30%作為所謂的可負擔我們現在把這個部分整個降從30降到20%來作為計算的基點這是第一個第二個是我們最近可能會有很多新蓋好的社宅所以大家擔心說你去評估旁邊的所謂的租金市價的時候你會讓社宅的租金會比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11432.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11460.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
但我們現在的做法是N加10年也就是說它如果是新蓋好的設宅的話是加10年用周邊10年的中古屋的租金的水準來做計算的基準這是第二點另外我們也參考了大家的意見把這個打折的這個級數把它做了增加比如說從原本打5折可以變成打4、5折打3折所以簡單來講就整個往下降往下降了之後變成是一個天花板 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11461.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11481 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那這個所有其他的縣市如果在這個天花板以下的話我們都樂觀其成所以你認為說現在的改制之後反而現在的社宅的租金會往下降是那不同的身分別他也都會往下降他沒有搭配到這一些特殊身分別的人他也會往下降是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11481.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11506.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
但是如果我們以臺北市的社會住宅一期的套房型來計算那如果有一個青年他的收入是27470基本工資那另外一位收入是47000在都沒有弱勢身份的狀況之下臺北市如果按照分級收費標準跟內政部身份市價打折的租金變動他們就會出現價差 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11507.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11522.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
委員剛剛已經跟你報告過了我們尊重臺北市如果臺北市要用身分別我們尊重但我們會計算出一個標準出來就是說不管他用對不起我講錯剛剛臺北市用所得別 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11522.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11546.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
我們會計算一個基準出來他只要在這個所謂的基準以下只要你們跟地方政府第一能夠溝通好第二能夠保護到我們一般民眾的權益不要因為他沒有這個特殊的身份因為現在非常多年輕朋友很擔心你們的政策我們基本上都希望社會住宅發展得更好但是您看剛才我們也才不過講5分鐘的時間而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11547.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11570.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那您在身份別跟這個所謂的收入所得就已經講錯五六次當然你自己都經常會講錯當然我們的政策傳播出去的時候大家會搞不清楚所以這一點是希望你們的溝通要做得更好而且台北市跟桃園跟新北我們還是覺得用收入去制定會比較好這是地方政府的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11570.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11595.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
最後一點時間想跟您談一下就是說現在社宅裡面也有一些這個社會案件發生那大家發現這個社宅出問題的時候各個單位互相踢皮球沒有整合性我想問一下未來在這個內政部這裡我們社宅的部分除了蓋社宅以外我們有沒有能夠規劃更多的一些社會福利包含是居住福利的整合機構進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11596.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11616.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我舉一個比較清楚的案例像我們在廣慈社宅這邊先前就有發生性侵的案件那當地的里長他們的服務壓力很大因為等於是一次進來上千戶那變成是說里長按照原本的一些他們的工作去做的話真的是不堪負荷 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11616.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11624.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
因為需要政府配套措施社福比例的比重也大幅的拉高那我們也都知道其實很多的社宅分工都丟給物業館這個是沒有幫助的所以我會在這邊具體的建議你們今天不用回覆沒關係拜託回去評估未來整個中央我們除了在社宅部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11636.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11652.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
是不是針對社宅的管理不只丟給物業我們還有政府的資源能夠注入去協助在整個地方上面跟社宅的居民的互動一方面保護二方面也拒絕讓社宅未來長期之後被貼上負面標籤 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11653.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11653.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
好的,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11678.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11683.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
好,謝謝許巧欣委員也謝謝部長跟署長接下來我們請黃珊珊委員質詢謝謝主席,我想請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11701.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11726.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
是,委員好部長我想今天非常多的委員都很關心昨天我們在行政院門口13個NGO團體一起來抗議尤其抗議的就是剛剛講的這個內政部違反住宅法把租金收依照所謂的身分別而取代收入別我想剛剛很多委員都問了那昨天內政部的新聞稿是你親自核定的嗎我有看過 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11730.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11735.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
你有看過祝蒙給你的回應的新聞稿嗎?他說你們公然說謊會要視聽。你沒有看過這個新聞稿?我看過。 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11741.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11741.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
這是其中的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11760.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11780.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以當立法院在住宅法25條的部分要鎖的狀況負擔能力還有市場行情訂定收賄原則以及所有的附帶決議其實都是在這個情況下要求內政部來做內政部做了兩年的考卷現在拿出一張不合格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11781.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11797.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
答案為什麼會引起這麼大的問題,要不要說明一下所以我現在的問題是第一臺北市政府、臺原市政府在你們的會議裡面你們的說法是支持認同並不反對所以就等於同意了是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11798.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11817.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我跟您做幾點說明第一個並不是用所謂的身分別去取代所得別這是第一個我剛剛都知道所以我現在部長我只問你如果你說我們尊重地方政府尊重地方政府的共識但是是不是透過社會住宅新辦計畫非自償性兼備補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11821.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11840.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
如果地方政府實際收的租金低於你的身份制的折數下限他們要自行負擔財力缺口應該不是我們在新聞稿裡面其實有做說明這個差額的部分沒有用這個來威脅地方政府沒有我們在新聞稿裡面有說如果這個差額的部分中央會來補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11841.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11841.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
〔記者訪問〕 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11860.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11863.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
因為這個民團他們可能沒有看到我們其中的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11881.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11904.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
這個明文為什麼會那麼貴?是因為它用新成屋的市價,但我們未來是用N家10年,所以是用中古屋的這個水準所以這個將來都不會成為他們因為這樣租金而大幅上漲的狀況?不會,這個我們有考慮到第二個,千萬不能用任何中央取消相關的補貼來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11906.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11908.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
你覺得中華民國政府有這麼多假窮人去拿低收入戶那是政府無能啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11936.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11951.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
而不是用這個方式去限制了所謂的弱勢青年或弱勢家庭入住社宅的租金補貼這是兩件事這完全是兩件事我要求的是不能因為怕有假窮人就傷害真窮人不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11953.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11957.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
但是這些人他們違反政府的規定不等於我們要忽略所謂的弱勢就是家庭跟弱勢團體不是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11969.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11988.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
這個就是一開始我跟委員報告我們的目標就是要照顧低薪的青年跟邊緣戶還有降低現在需求的這個大家的一個居住負擔所以部長你在3萬塊房貸補貼的時候講得很清楚我們的要照顧的人叫做邊緣戶因為中低收入戶政府都有在照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11989.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11994.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
但是現在的狀況是很多人是因為他的家人有不動產所以他拿不到中低收入戶但他自己沒有辦法負擔現在社會住宅的 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12015.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12019.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
所以我希望這件事情要清楚的跟立法院來做說明。第二個,你們這個案子已經定案了嗎?還是還在收集這件?基本上這個草案已經完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12036.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12041.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
所以我想立法院的意見也麻煩部長要納入這件事情對所有的民間團體來說他們都非常擔心因為這樣而造成的差異107年台北市就開始錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12061.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12061.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
是希望不要只用身份別來簡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12085.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12099.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
政府的程序而傷害到這些真正需要照顧的人我們剛剛聽過我的說明我想應該可以瞭解我們並不是這樣子所以我覺得很清楚啦如果造成可能的衝擊我希望你們也能夠學愛樂嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12100.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12124.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
重新聽大家的意見把所有的問題再重新理清楚不要把看一個新聞稿出來各說各話然後民間團體的意見然後內政部跟他隔空對嗆有問題就找進來一起討論委員我剛剛跟你報告我們是把整個租金的水準往下降是我們希望把你就把相關的具體平額算給大家看然後一次講清楚不用這樣互相猜疑當然好謝謝部長謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12129.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12131.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
謝謝黃勝山委員﹖也謝謝部長及署長﹖接下來我們請鄭天才委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12148.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12174.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
主席、國土管理委員：有請部長：還有演民會：梅莊署長請部長跟署長 委好部長我已經這個圖引用了很多次部長也看過然後你也更熟悉這個地方都是山坡地但是都可以蓋大樓基隆市中央區也是山坡地都蓋大樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12175.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12176.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12194.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12218.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
好,我們現在看這個非都市土地使用管制規則第45條這是現行的條文本席一再的希望把這個原住民保留地另外再增加原住民族部落但是這個到現在內政部都沒有修當然理由都是說因為國土計畫法要實施了 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12220.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12236.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
內政部的報告裏面這個為解決原住民族既有积蓄用地不足問題原住民积蓄但是這個你們要分階段的來去實施然後要原定什麼原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12238.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12266.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
主土地使用管制規則然後言這個希望第一個就是說105年5月1號以前既有建物資合法機制要訂定這個部分為什麼既有建物資合法機制要以105年5月1號為時間點我認為是不合理當然你們是以7計畫國土計畫法公佈實施的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12268.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12292.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
好我們看這個非都市土地使用管制規則是現行的且以本規則中華民國108年2月26日修正生肖前實際以作住宅使用者這都還比較寬所以好我們來看國土計畫法雖然105年5月1號施行但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12294.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12312.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
全國的國土計畫是在兩年後然後呢直轄市縣市政府直轄市縣市的國土計畫我們剛剛講的全國國土計畫是107年4月30日才公告然後呢直轄市縣市的國土計畫是在110年4月30日公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12319.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12320.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我們看這個執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12337.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12359.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
這個執法你們議定今年今年年底要完成我們是希望能夠趕快但是要符合要解決原住民族的問題所以這個部分請部長還有國土署尤其菸米會你們絕對不要同意用105年5月1號 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12363.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12369.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
因調整既有介入合法機制的時間點就剛才談的那個部分那個部長這個部分還可以討論嗎這個請吳署長說明一下跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12379.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12399.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
一百零五年以前是當然就是直接依據這樣的規定辦一百零五年以後其實現在就會像之前有跟委員說明過我們都有透過一些輔導的機制跟鄉地區整體規劃來解決因為那個那樣子的話我來說明齁七一計畫法的公佈實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12400.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12418.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
跟非都市土地使用管制規則也有很大的落差所以你可以看參考過去的好不好是可以討論的這個不是沒有法律明定沒有法律明定部長我是寫法律的老公務員不會隨便那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12421.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12447.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
這個管理規則原住民族土地使用管理規則你們稱為管制規則還是管理規則這裡面第二章原住民族部落基柱基柱原住民族部落這邊都寫部落但是跑到裡面的條文全部限收在原住民族土地限收在原住民族土地限收在第5條也是限收在原住民族土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12449.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12479.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
第6條也是限收在原住民族土地甚至第7條限收在原住民保留地我們看這個國土計畫法23條23條裡面特別提到涉及原住民族土地及海域之使用管制者因依原住民族基本法第21條規定辦理原基法21條他有部落原住民族土地有部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12480.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12506.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
還有桌邊一定範圍部落的桌邊一定範圍所以這個部分是要再做檢討啊不然的話沒辦法解決我們的問題啊為什麼呢因為原住民族土地啊只有傳統領域啊跟那個既有的原住民保留地啊那傳統領域到現在只有公告一個地方啊只有公告污染區啊原住民傳統領域啊人民會議現在已經8年了只有公告一個地方啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12507.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12523.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
所以這個部分沒辦法落實沒辦法解決我們的問題我也在希望去修非都市土地使用管制規則現在到這邊更慘了所以這個部分是一定要做修正的這個你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12525.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12543.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
畫設辦法嚮明會依延期法21條所定的畫設辦法就包含部落範圍土地所以這個部分是可以把它納入的所以包含這個土地的建壁率、容積率像這樣的我們先談這個我們先談這個管制規則裏面的管制規則好 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12561.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12563.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
組長 這個是不是不要限收在原住民族土地這個好 我來說原住民族土地按照原基法的規定我剛剛有講了一個是傳統禮儀那傳統禮儀現在只有公告那個只有污染器喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12583.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12589.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
第二個原住民保留地那就回到了非都市土用管制規則了對不對沒有更好啊完全沒有辦法解決原住民族現在的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12599.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12626.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
所以這個部落我都有立法律的依據所以你們就把它檢討修正反正你們趕快再開會就把它回歸到回歸到延期法包含部落包括部落範圍周邊一定範圍然後這個延期法依延期法訂定的這個劃設辦法也要提到部落範圍的土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12628.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12631.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
部落裡面尤其是平地原住民的部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12656.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12674.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
有很多不是保留地啦這個可以這個我都不行尤其是平地原住民的部落保留地在部落裡面很少所以這個可以的我就不行所以才會要把部落放為土地納入進去好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12680.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12690.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
原住民族的土地他定義其實就是原保地跟那個傳統領域的部分那其實原則上剛委員擔心的那個我們也有跟那個國土署去協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12691.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12709.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
原則上我們會以我們目前所調查的這個所公告在網路上的那個範圍來做我們所謂原住民土地的認定所以原則上應該委員擔心的這部分是不太會發生因為這些部落一定範圍內像花東地區都是在傳統領域土地裡面所以我們大概目前是朝這樣的方向協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12712.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12739.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
現在是這樣講因為那個都是放在說明啊我看啊你們放在說明裡面啊實際上要執行的時候就完了就慘了那就乾脆如果是這樣乾脆把部落放進去啊因為你們調查的也都在也在在那裏面啊部落也都在那裏面啊把部落這兩個字也拿進去啊好不好好謝謝好拜託部長這個很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12744.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12744.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
國土計畫法 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12770.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12795.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
國土計畫法在做說明的時候然後在整個部落裡面來講有聽沒有懂這是一個部落的聲音然後第二個是現在針對國土計畫法的一個看法本席認為先暫時這個暫緩實施因為要各地方要因地制宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12796.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12814.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
另外一次剛剛委員認同我們鄭天才委員所講的有很多地方的條文應該該納入的就要納入第二個也該放寬要放寬整個半世紀以來對針對原住民的土地的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12815.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12834.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
也應該授權以他們都放款使用。第一,能夠讓他們使用的如果合法的他的土地,這個原保地可以開放觀光的比如說錄影區、餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12835.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12864.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
或者是民宿讓他們有經濟來源的一個基本因為原住民在全國裡面你要讓原住民自己要有生存之道也應該要善用他自己的土地所以本席認為要放寬但是這個議題裡面有很多的條文未來我可能會提出建議跟建言來讓部長知道好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12865.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12880.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
那另外就是目前當局最急迫性的全國目前最需要的是什麼是居住正義居住正義在蔡英文 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12882.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12895.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
在政府的社會住宅政策下本席要求建立原住民的專屬社會住宅依照行政院109年8月17日合併 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12903.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12930.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
通過原住民族住宅四年二期計畫110年到113年辦理第二個行政院109年10月5日合併通過前瞻基礎建設城鄉建設原民部落營造計畫106年至114年第三落實原住民的基本法第16條政府應 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12933.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12959.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
策定原住民族住宅政策．輔導原住民建構或租用住宅．並積極推動部落更新的計畫方案．當然社會住宅提供的照顧的對象．有三個面向．第一是設心落實．第二身心落實．第三階段性的落實．所以為了針對上次我質詢部長． |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12961.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12989.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
您有提到我們台中市沙漏噴水段的這個社會住宅那這個社會住宅的第一個要件但並沒有中央的挹注只是用地方的財源的這個劃分法可是問題是我們曾經有提過希望中央能夠挹注這個政策所以因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12991.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13012.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
本期在3月14日邀請了內政部國土署與原民會進行的會議討論。會議中已經有一個方向。內政部國土署建議,原住民色彩以先榮之心見而產生之利息由內政部負責。 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13013.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13038.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
新建完畢後租金若有因原住民租金降低產生之缺口由內政部負擔。人民會表示必定全力配合建蓋也不希望原住民的社宅變成一般社宅社會福利甚至空間應需給予教育語言和文化的傳承效益。部長你認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13045.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13071.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
委員我跟您報告一下這個概念上這有兩個部分第一個是它的屬性是原住民住宅還是是原住民社宅這兩個是有點不太一樣的那社宅的話我們是不希望有任何的標籤化這是一個重點另外是原住民的住宅的話如果是地方政府或者是原民會這邊要興建的話我想我們都是樂觀啟程 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13072.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13099.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
那社宅的部分我們會以這個非自償的部分來給予補助原民會他有建蓋社會住宅的能力嗎我想如果原民會這個原民會的部分如果有這個新建原住民住宅這樣的一個政策那地方政府可以依據這個政策來做推動因為社會住宅就是在英文的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13099.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13118.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
就是按照社會住宅的方案來建改專屬原住民的獨立的一個社會住宅因為文化的不同如果配給配給對原住民來講的話是對他們是不要有一個不公平的一個立場為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13118.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13139.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
因為他要在他的自己的地方裡面然後旁邊都是漢人住的然後我們唱三歌就會有其他的文化的不同的差異然後提出了這樣的一個看法所以我希望內政部責成原民會來共同研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13142.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13154.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
針對有三數的地方原住民的社會住宅包含臺中的平等段趕快進行能夠在預算上或者是在其他的政治上趕快實施。部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13157.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13161.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
沒有一個說社會住宅 說全部統統都是原住民 所以這一點要跟你報告沒有 你在大會就已經跟我明定的 明說的 就是你有三個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13180.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13206.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
三個地方其中一個就是臺中的平等段的殺戮那是就是專屬原住民的專屬那個就是臺中市政府自己蓋的不是自己蓋並沒有自己蓋因為他們的財源因素還是要需要中央的挹注啊所以今天我剛提了你們會中裡面來國土國土署你來回答我說明一下好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13208.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13225.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
因為當然涉宰了興辦主體地方政府也可以中央也可以那第二個就是說如果地方政府辦那他所有的這個在非自然性的補助的部分中央都會全力來補助他所以我才會跟委員說其實兩個都可以辦那 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13227.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13255.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
對嘛現在你不是說要地方辦我也要希望能中央大家一起來嘛聽不懂是不是我跟我委員報告所以我才說我們這個我會再來瞭解他的真的如果有需要我們你也到我的辦公室裡面來說說明了不是嗎對對對對還有什麼意見所以跟我委員報告就這個部分如果中央能在這裡那你再詳細說明再請顏銘會到我辦公室來再做說明一次好不好好好這個部分我們會來協助啦嘿 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13262.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13272.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
謝謝國務委員的質詢,謝謝部長跟署長。根據會見報告,待會在我們火夢凱委員答詢完之後,我們休息五分鐘。那現在有請我們莊惠雄委員。謝謝主席,有請我們內政部林部長,還有我們國土管理署吳新修、吳署長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13288.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13295.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
委員部長、署長我想幾個問題來請教我們這個整個國土計畫的一個推動這個其實是一個大學問一塊土地到底這塊土地上你要怎麼樣去讓它容許哪一些項目甚至於這塊土地使用的強度到哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13310.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13310.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
現在目前就是說 有 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13332.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13351.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
各地方政府你先進行一個畫設然後再交給我們國土署這樣來做確實是可以給各地方政府按照現在各個縣市或者每一個地區裡面真實使用跟未來發展的一個需求可以講說是因地制宜的一個土地使用管制的相關的一個配套那我記得 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13353.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13367.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
其實大家很清楚在總統大選前很多人在爭吵甚至於連未來的總統賴富老家的一個問題其實在各個縣市也都存在很多種狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13371.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13397.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
也就是說我一直有一個想法就是說我們有沒有可能相關類似的事件那在這一次縣市政府趁這一次去提出相應的一個國土功能的一個分區那據本席的一個了解就是說我們國土署這個地方是不是有一個鄉村地區整體規劃的一個機制那我們藉由土地使用的一個管制的一個擬定也就是說我根本就不需要去變更地木 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13397.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13420.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
然後藉由都市計畫然後因地制宜來建立適宜的土地使用的管制的一個規定就類似於說我們在都市計畫裡面的住宅區裡面的我這裡這裡有三個點這裡有四個點或者因為就是說因為營建我們國土署這邊有細部的計畫容許管制可以按照地區的特性按照各種土地使用分區的一個列別 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13421.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13437.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
來分別定定他土地使用的容許的項目跟強度讓他就這個合理性跟可行性來做一個審議所以我特別來請教部長或者說我們署長這個地方有沒有可能我們是用這樣的一個模式來解決像類似的一個問題阿不然時間一個過了問題也還在 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13441.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13465.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
是不是請部長或者署長說明我想先講一個大概就是說鄉村地區的整體規劃的這個機制就是要去解決過去在非都土是土地裡面不當的這個土地利用的問題那這個所以這個是一個機制那它可以解決過去幾十年留下來的比如說在這個剛剛在講礦區或者是說很多原住民族的這個委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13466.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13466.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
國土計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13482.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13500.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
所以第二個是但是他可能不會像我們都市計畫裡面說去畫什麼細部的計畫他會透過鄉村地區的整體規劃的部分讓他的相關的一個土地使用去合理化然後也可以讓他回歸這個機制裡面去做檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13501.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13515.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那所以說 署長 現在補兌的意思就是說 我現在就不用再開始在那裡做什麼地目變更了喔 我現在這個機制我就是我這個土地使用管制的一個擬定 我現在國土署在那邊並且讓人來做喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13516.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13521.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
就可以把全國各縣市現在選舉期間在炒這個問題一次把它解決掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13546.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13571.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
但是產業廢止以後這也有整個聚落都是變成沒有辦法合法像這個大家都知道像嘉義嘉義阿里山地區或者是這個宜蘭都有這類似整個聚落都沒有辦法合法那這些都會在這一次的這個國土計畫裡面去透過這樣的一個檢討那全部來定那有些是地方定那有些地方希望中央來定那這我們兩邊都會來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13573.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13578.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
但是我們希望說過去沒有解決的事情再這一次把它解決掉啦另外喔 本次要來提醒就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13584.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13584.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13605.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13627.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
未來各縣市不只說屏東各縣市也同樣那你具有的農民跟原住民權益的一個保障藉這一次的一個推動的時候我們也必須要去顧及到他們原來的一個權益啦在這個地方做一個提醒那另外呢就要來請教部長還是署長都有啦社會住宅我看今天好多 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13629.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13643.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
委員也去關心到整個租金的一個計價的一個方式到底是用升任別還是用收入別一直以來都大家討論的一個重點所以就來著一個租金的一個收益這個大家就知道搞不好都都地方政府收起但是問題是現在大家討論的重點就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13646.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13663.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
其他委員會建議說內政部是不是可以採用雙軌但我要請教的就是說除了現在的幾個縣市以外加市以外我們這些所謂的雙軌是各縣市自行去決定還是一個縣市裡面我可以採取 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13664.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13676.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
像比如說我台北市我現在是採取的,像比如說我是收入別那我可不可以同時又去所謂的雙軌市我自己選擇一個還是一個縣市裡面我台北市我可以選擇收入也可以選擇身份其實兩個就是雙軌,兩個都可以都可以,就是說我台北市我可以,不是只用收入而已他的現況就是收入,他也可以繼續收入他也可以用身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13689.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13702.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
那我就必須要請教就是說一個縣市裡面兩種計畫的一個方式的一個所以部長你的意思就是說就算台北市現在是用收入他也可以選擇用身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13705.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13727.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我們現在在定的就是將所有的租金的水準整個往下降這個是政策的一個目的現況有三個直轄市新北市上個月才開始採取所謂的收入表桃園跟台北市在過去是採取收入表 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13731.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13756.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
他們用這個我們現在是當然我們用三份別的部分去訂一個天花板那只要在這個天花板以下我們都可以這個我們都尊重地方政府的一個選擇好我們最重要的是希望那個負擔不要超過這個我們的天花板比如說就像過去臺北市發生那個明倫國宅那個租金過高的一個問題那在新的制度裡面不會發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13757.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13773.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我是看到了內政部針對民團的回應的訴求裡面去提到說為了避免錯置且過度的一個補貼所以新版的社會住宅的租金你去分期收費的一個草案裡面你們將採身份而不是所得的一個分期 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13774.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13790.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
內政部舉台北市為例就說25個社宅裏面有74%的成住戶他的報稅所得對於中低收入的一個標準基本生活的1.5倍那這些成住戶裏面只有15%是社會局認定的低收入或者中低收入也就是說近五成 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13791.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13810.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
不是具有經濟弱勢的程度卻適用那個低收社會住宅所以內政部可能就實務上認為說出現過度的一個補貼那本期想強調就是說社會住宅除了租給弱勢之外還有很大的一個部分是年輕族群或者說小家庭我們的社會住宅有很大的一個目的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13812.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13839.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
昨天你也經常這樣說啊說要讓這些人從租屋到購屋之間有一個相對低的租屋的一個成本讓他們可以在3加3的年間累積足夠的資本來購屋啊所以內政部你們表示說會維護著既有租屋成租的一個權益但是地方政府又可以依照現行的收費方式來進行那等到原本成租屋成租人成租的期限到了以後又依照新的收費的一個方式我擔心的是說你的收費會不會提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13842.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13843.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
謝謝莊惠雄委員的質詢也謝謝部長及署長接下來我們請洪孟楷委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13880.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13884.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
好,我們再請李永昌部長跟我們國土署署長請部長跟署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13887.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13916.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
來部長我follow剛剛專瑞雄委員的一個問題因為本席昨天也看到有新聞媒體報導就直接講就他用試算還用試算AB兩者的概念講說涉宅如果說過去是用身分別過去是用這個所得別來分級的話他的租金可能是A多少B多少但如果說之後用身分別的話因為他們兩個都是一樣的身分反而會造成他們兩個的這個租金一個會比較低一個會比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13917.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13938.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
我想請教你剛剛有講到一個所謂的天花板我們都是希望是說社會住宅能夠讓不管是年輕的族群不管是弱勢的族群能夠在有一個比較終極的過程當中3加3的過程裡面能夠趕快累積自己的資本能夠找到一個永久的一個居住地點所以問題來了到底是誰說有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13939.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13958.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
媒體居然是這樣報導我想這可能有一些誤解跟誤會第一個是什麼叫做可負擔其實中央的一個政策跟民團還有大家其實基本上都是一致的第一個就是這個讓社會住宅的一個租金能夠降低然後是大家可以負擔的 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13958.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13981.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
第二個就是照顧低薪的青年還有這個...我們都希望能夠讓租金更低一點加可負擔的部分但只是現在在聚焦的是說以前是所得分級現在又用身份分級那我剛剛看到你的理由好像目前是因為相對來講我們的政策推動比較方便還是說我們的認定比較方便 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13981.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13983.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
為什麼把整個的租金的收入能夠大幅的降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14010.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14027.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
最重要的第一個在過去我們居住的這個負擔一般來定是在收入的30%視為是可負擔那我們這一次在計算基準我們整個把30%直接降到20%也就是減少了大概33.3%左右這是一個很大的降幅 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14027.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14050.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
但是我講請教會不會發生如同我在媒體上報導看到的就是以前所得別分級的時候他的租金相對比較低但是用身分別認定的時候因為他們兩個都是一樣的身分別反而一個要繳比較高的租金一個要可以繳比較低的租金其實不會有這個問題我們的建議是我們的意見是說如果他現在台北市他是使用身分別 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14050.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14052.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
我們住都中心所管理的這些社宅勒? |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14074.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14094.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
以後未來都會統一改成身分別嗎?我們本來現在就是用身分別現在就是所以我們住都中心的部分也不會有這個問題好 部長我再來請教一下本期當然還是希望是說在社宅的部分能夠以最大的一個力道能夠支持我們所有的弱勢族群跟青年朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14095.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14117.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
再來請教一下就是關於我本期的這個選區領口計畫特定保護區其實過去一直大家都有在提到就是說雖然內政部有承諾我在禮拜一的時候領體有講到中央地方要來趕快加速做這個通談檢討但是民眾更關心說他有在保護區裡面到民宅修繕整修以及規劃大方向到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14118.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14144.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
有沒有一個具體明確的部分告訴民眾說什麼東西能做什麼都不能做?簡單說明好不好?因為原來在保護區裡面當然是依照保護區的容許使用第二就是說對於保護區就是林口特令區的話其實現在我們也有在作業就是說新北跟桃園都希望有能夠回歸地方這我們也在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14144.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14161.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
因為回歸地方還可以有點因地制宜性這部分都持續在作業當中因為最新的我們在這個月也才剛開過會希望解除雙方要分開的時候的一些作業上的疑慮這部分我們會持續來做到時候可以還給地方政府比較大的一個彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14162.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14176.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
但地方這邊也傳出說中央主導的力道會比較強地方政府反而沒有因為法規關係而沒有比較無能為力應該是這麼說啦因為今天保護區的想要去變更想要去修正本來就是比較困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14179.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14203.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
第二個但是你原有的合法使用或是原有使用想要修繕這個部分的容許條件是可以是可以去談因為畢竟有一些的確是在當地是比較久的但是可能會有一些是期待他要直接去做變更那這個部分的確已經涉及到長期整個中央政府跟地方政府已經既有的一個管制條件這個部分我想在審查上還是相對會比較嚴格沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14203.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14219.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
也是會比較嚴格對但是他如果有一些現況要容許使用的那這當然是還可以來討論但那是不是一般來講我說實在話本席每一次到了地方都覺得說地方的民眾對於我們中央的這個說明或是宣導其實都遠遠不及啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14220.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14246.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
所以很多民眾都告訴我們是說不管是他們要整修、他們要修繕、他們要規劃好像都被綁死了甚至你這邊還有提到是說有人講到可以依照第27條多市計畫法27條做專案變更但實際上根本不可行嘛 對不對一般的民眾要走這一條其實是根本沒辦法嘛保護區大致上除了這個興建相關的公共設施以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14247.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14266.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
基本上可能都要經過通盤檢討才有辦法去檢討這一個項目他不太適用個案變更的方式最後一點部長我再請教一下我們淡水淡海新市政這邊二期的開發其實之前也有跟地方政府有溝通那本期其實最關注的重點在於是 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14267.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14288.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
在這個禮拜一我的臨時提案也有提出來殺人路二段40米的道路則主幹道應該要先把它打通打通之後才能夠有後續整個想像跟發展也才能夠有誘因讓比較多的其他的不管是業界不管是其他的這些民眾想要來進駐 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14290.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14305.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
這一點的部分能不能具體給一個承諾根文報告其實我們淡海二期的這個規劃已經進行作業了那這中間也跟公路局都有進行協調那基本上在我們範圍外的公路局已經確定他會納入他的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14306.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14334.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
去試圖做拓寬但我們現在講的是範圍內範圍內可能就是要跟委員報告徵收不是不可行但是比較擔心是民眾如果他堅持要納入去亂徵收那這個我們總是可以的重點是你們要去推動啊你們要去地方說明會你們要去告訴民眾到底你們的方案以及重點在於是沙崙路二段為什麼本席那麼的重視這一條路是因為2025年淡江大橋即將就要完工了 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14335.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14349.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
當淡江大橋即將完工之後所有的車流量要嘛就是從巴里端這邊來到了淡海新市鎮它有可能是往原本的舊市區有可能是往三芝方向那往三芝方向的話就馬上面臨到這個淡海新市鎮二期的一個開發嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14350.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14365.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
跟委員報告我們在上個月底已經有在行政院還有開過會確認那我講我們淡海二期的規劃還有它的未來的開發方式跟作業的期程我們在今年會加速的趕快來提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14365.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14366.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
你只是提出喔?提出你的計畫?部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14381.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14399.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
之前當過地方父母官所以本席是以一個地方民眾的心聲很沉痛的要來跟內政委員會來跟您說明因為淡海新市鎮從20幾年前30年前那個時候政府給了一個大餅到希望是說能夠有進駐20萬人30萬人到現在光進駐5萬人左右就已經交通黑暗了 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14405.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14431.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
而我們很努力的爭取不管是淡北領外道路現在已經正式在施工淡江大橋2025完工但後續淡海新市鎮二期我們也期待有更多的產業能夠進駐達成在地就學、在地就業、在地就養的狀況所以勢必您剛剛提到交通問題要先處理主幹道要先打通主幹道要先出來你才有辦法來活絡以及規劃後續淡海新市鎮二期這個我都會納入整體規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14433.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14440.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
好 那就拜託部長以及署長這邊念茲在茲把他放在第一優先順位好嗎?好 謝謝謝謝委員 也謝謝部長及署長 我們現在休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14466.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14467.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14473.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14498.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14503.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14513.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
議員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14519.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14521.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
委員會主任委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14540.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14557.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14563.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14564.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14576.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14578.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
委員會主任委員會主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14598.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14615.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14616.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14618.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14755.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14756.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
我們現在繼續開會我們請陳冠廷委員發言請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14773.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14785.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
委員好部長好我們今天要談論的其實就是民眾非常關心的國土計畫的進度基本上我們要談的是住民的生存權 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14787.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14812.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
目前預計在2025年4月底來去實行公告可是目前只有連江、金門、花蓮這三個縣市把國土工人分區報到內政部來所以我想請教部長有沒有去了解一下有沒有把十幾個各縣市遇到的問題有沒有稍微做統整他們大概遇到什麼樣共同的問題我想大概基本上有許多的一個陳情案、人懲案 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14813.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14841.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
它基本上就是過去的一個使用跟未來的一個使用民眾可能還不一定很了解有一些疑慮跟意見那第二個是其實依照程序的話這個相關的縣市只要在今年大概在今年上半年6月以前這個把案子送進來我想基本上這是我們預定的一個啟程那目前是三個縣市這個花蓮跟金門跟馬祖有送進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14841.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14866.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
部長,我想之所以會只有這三個縣市來把這樣的計畫分區圖來報到內政部部長是因為有一些自愛難行的部分比如說這些官員在辦理這些業務的時候他們都在圖面上作業可是其實相關的圖資其實還沒有足夠的更新所以有很多住民或者是相關權益的受損者他們其實也不具備基本的數位的一些這些能量來去了解說這是跟他們直接利害相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14867.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14890.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
所以在我們自己部分的話我們遇到的許多我們選區的民眾他是突然在最近這幾個月才發現到說他們是受影響的區塊所以官員可能沒有辦法理解到說新版的國土功能分區圖他所需要的溝通跟公聽會他不是只是辦一下而已他必須要讓很多權益受損的甚至是中高年人的人能夠有機會來去 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14892.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14906.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
進行跟縣政府也好或者是縣市政府也好來進行完整的溝通那我必須再強調這對當地的住民來說其實都是對每一個相關的權益者來說是一個生存權之爭比方說我們嘉義縣的山區那他現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14906.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14929.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
是茶園、果園、農田或者是農園官方文化經營的場所那對他們來講已經不是一代兩代三代甚至是在我們政府來台之前就已經有相關的這樣子的歷史的這個證明在但是他們沒有足夠的這樣子的文字的資料或者是沒有完整的資料來提供所以這樣子的話造成他們的影響他們會非常的恐慌特別是 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14930.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14950.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
就即將要實施2025年如果國土的計畫法實施之後真的是會動彈不得所以民眾當然會有一些反應比如說阿里山鄉我們的這個范六鄉竹崎鄉他是最反對新版的國土功能分區處的鄉鎮所以我們嘉義縣政府已經主動來把這三個鄉鎮做鄉村地區整體規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14952.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14976.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
但是這個整體規劃的期程也好或者是居民的參與程度也好其實是趕不太上時間點的所以不僅僅是只有連江、金門、花園這三個縣市只有這三個縣市來去報告內政部我想其他縣市都面臨的類似的問題所以大家是有很多的陳情案那不僅僅是分區立委而已不分區的立委其實大家也都會理解到 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14976.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14992.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
所以我們希望說在針對國土的議題之後也必須能夠我想還是為地方請命是不是可以把國土計畫的相關施責的行程是不是可以稍微延緩一下因為這是要讓地方政府研擬更適合在地居民的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14993.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15008.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
不要趕時程,那這樣子會造成民意反彈會很大這部分各位請部長簡單的回應一下我想我們工作當然是不是說要把它做完更重要其實是要把它做好那這是第一點第二個是委員剛剛提到的情形大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15009.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15036.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
各個縣市多多少少都有不過也因為這個整個的國土計畫騎乘往前走那開始進入這個深水區那另外書圖特別是圖的部分出來那民眾有看到所以他才有辦法去做一些這個意見的一個反應那也因為這樣子所以問題出來了然後我們才能夠把問題分類然後一個一個下去解決才有剛剛委員特別提到在 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15037.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15052.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
阿里山鄉有幾個鄉規的部分在進行這個是在解決問題第二個因為這是依法的這個期程委員的意見我們尊重我們也會持續的溝通希望能夠讓這個工作能夠順利 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15053.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15054.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
我想大家知道說現在特別是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15069.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15092.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
中南部的各縣市當然每一個基本上每一個村落都會有一個活動中心那活動中心的老化的現象是非常嚴重那有些是活動中心的主要的這個點是在二樓而且沒有電梯等於說他們只能上樓梯但是主要使用活動中心的民眾還是以中高年為主那我也觀察到 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15093.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15116.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
每個鄉里村鎮活動中心的經費是各個都不太一樣那有些地方是有完整的配套那包含其他基礎建設的時候有畫設這樣子多功能的中心那有些地方特別偏遠的一些鄉鎮那它的活動中心基本上不僅沒有無障礙設施那甚至是它的這個使用的這個年限都已經超過了包含電燈都一閃一閃的那牆壁斑駁我都 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15117.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15117.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15132.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15132.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
接下來我們請黃國昌委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15176.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15177.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
謝謝主席馬上有請部長好部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15183.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15208.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
還有委員黃部長今天其實非常多的委員大家都非常關心依照住宅法第25條我們所訂的社會住宅分級租金收費的辦法我必須要老實跟部長講我剛剛坐在下面聽包括前面我透過轉播的系統在聽您講我必須要老實說您今天講的內容跟我們之前看 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15210.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15239.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
在內政部開會的會議記錄甚至出來的辦法其實不太一致剛我仔細聆聽您所講的你說大家對於現在內政部規劃要從收入別改成身分別這一件事情您是贊成雙軌的就是你要用身分也可以你要用收入也可以第二個你們所定的這個辦法是天花板 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15240.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15258.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
只要不超過縣市政府要訂的更低用收入別訂更低也沒有問題我有沒有理解錯誤?沒有好但我真的要拜託部長回去再看一下花敬群次長在歷次的會議當中他的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15258.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15275.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
他對於地方政府怎麼說的他對於民間團體怎麼說的以及那個草案具體的內容譬如說他辦法裡面就講了各個縣市政府在現在租約是用收入別譬如說台北、新北、桃園通通都是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15277.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15294.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
但他要求說等到租約期滿了以後你就要換回來他現在鎖定的辦法用身分別這個在辦法裡面的白紙黑字是這樣寫的所以我想了很久我想部長應該對這件事情很了解應該不會出現誤論的狀況所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15303.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15331.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
我用比較善意的方式解讀不找你你是不是不贊成花敬群那樣的定法我跟委員報告一下應該是說他如果租約如果比如說他比如說像剛剛在講台鐵市他這個收入別他時間如果到3加3之後時間如果到如果他要換軌變成是身分別的話沒有沒有他還要繼續維持收入別那他如果要繼續維持收入別我想這個尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15332.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15348.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
然後中央的補助不會有影響?剛剛我們新聞稿其實也有提到就是XL的部分這個中央我們會來支持所以中央會支持所以包括了臺北包括了桃園因為我知道蔣萬安市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15349.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15378.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
張善政事長跟很關心的事情有一個事情也必須要地方政府大家一起來幫忙也比如說在臺北市的確有這個狀況就是那個身份的這個中低收入的這個身份的一個認定的一個問題7乘3是他的一個所得收入居然是比低收入貨者還低但是他實際上有這個身份的只有15%所以這是一個很大的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15378.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15391.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
我這樣說好了 桃園的落差比較小我這樣說好了 在有關於收入的查核上 這本來就是政府應該要負的責任我相信部長可以同意是 這個讓委員讓我補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15395.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15412.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
但是不能只靠報稅的收入因為我們也有看到所謂財稅資料以外的審查機制這個包括股息、利息、車輛或者存款還有親友的資助這個沒有問題啊我們從國家制度的角度上來看住宅法2021年通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15413.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15433.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
到現在也兩年多了嘛這兩年多的時間中央要透過什麼樣子的方法去核實做收入這個我們大家都同意但是今天喔會有這麼多人站出來反彈是我們擔心的是被歸為一般戶裡面有非常多的年輕人他們可能收入他們收入三萬塊上下 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15437.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15461.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
大家擔心的是依照現在發信群搞的辦法用身份點他們全部被歸為一般戶收入3萬塊的、5萬塊的、7萬塊的、8萬塊的租金標準是一模一樣對他們產生非常大的擠壓而且租金會上漲但我今天聽到部長講一句話所以我今天上來質詢我只要一個承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15462.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15474.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
部長說你們的辦法通過了以後他們現在面臨的租金絕對不會因此而調漲對不對在我們的設計裡面不會因為我們是將整個租金的一個水準往下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15476.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15494.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
沒有關係部長我選擇相信你因為我知道應該是下禮拜三住宅會議要討論這個辦法主席是你嘛我建議部長您當主席的時候真的好好的再把那個辦法的條文啊看清楚然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15495.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15507.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
按照您今天在內政委員會上面所宣誓的原則來處理這樣部長您可以承諾嗎我想這是我們不一貫的一個原則我相信就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15510.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15526.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
我知道你的立場可能比較困難一點要你在這個公開的場合去說話去搞那個辦法搞得天怒人怨大家都反彈可能你會比較為難一點但沒有關係我們今天在這邊質詢不是要造成任何人的尷尬 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15527.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15543.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
我們代表的我們希望保護的都是那些低薪的青年那今天有部長這樣子的承諾我只拜託部長下禮拜開會的時候你一定要撐住你一定要撐住按照你在今天這裡跟大家所講的承諾做 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15544.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15545.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
下一位我們請林淑芬委員提出質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15572.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15573.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15590.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15613.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
有中華民國以來就沒有國土計畫法這個我們在講國家的整體國土的空間規劃沒有最上位的法律真的是蠻離譜的而發展呢在台灣發展這麼多年以來我們就看到好的農地沒有人要去耕種你看台塘的土地在那裡荒廢你看那個適合耕種的地區然後在那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15613.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15614.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15636.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15636.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
所以這個就是這幾十年來的亂象 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15660.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15660.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
國土計畫法實施以後這個現象會不會改變? |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15693.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15715.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
委員你講的這個是在特農嗎?蓋農舍應該是說他如果是在這個我們的特農區裡面的話他還是允許做相關的一個生產對沒有錯你講對了即便國土計畫法出來以後農發條例可以許可的他仍然是可以許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15716.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15733.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
沒有任何改變這我們已經夠悲哀了國土計畫法實施以後還是人蠻可以許可那我們農田中央長一棟工廠現在再申請特登特違章工廠鐵皮屋工廠要申請特登國土計畫法實施以後他會不會有問題他會不會被拆掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15737.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15765.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
特登的話如果他是依照現在的規定跟程序合法化跟做改善的話他是可以的但是如果說他沒有完成相關的改善是不允許的那個跟國土計畫法無關了我現在要講的是說工廠福島法排除了這個國土計畫法的管制農發條例也排除了國土計畫法的管制可能這個能源再生條例也會排除國土計畫法的管制所以我現在看你們大家都在講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15766.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15766.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
這是事實嗎?我們來解釋一下啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15783.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15805.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
解釋一下國土保育區大家最擔心的就被劃入國土保育區嘛國土保育區我們來看農業現有這個分類的農業區以前的那個如果劃入國土保育區第一個可以放大嗎?它可不可以維持自然保育設施?有設施的可不可以繼續使用?國保一國保二可不可以? |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15810.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15831.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
請問一下他可不可以做生態體系保護設施?現在可以未來實質國土計畫以後可不可以?可不可以得為林業使用照林苗圃林下經濟的經營使用?可以他可不可以做林業經營的管理設施?可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15833.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15845.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那他請問一下,他可不可以做森林經營管理的職工宿舍辦公室?兩公頃以下還是可以,他可不可以做其他林業設施? |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15846.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15869.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
這都要經過申請兩公頃以下都可以所以還可以他現在是森林遊樂設施未來的管理服務設施在國保一國保二可不可以還是可以還是可以遊器服務設施對就現有已經核准了現有已經核准了都沒有影響只有新增設的不可以對可不可以做這個住宿及附屬設施森林遊樂設施裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15871.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15879.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
這個一樣要經過申請審查才可以請問可不可以做農作使用你原來許可可以的就可以只是不能夠再新增可不可以做農田水利設施原來都有經過申請的還是都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15893.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15902.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
原來經過申請的都可以 原來不合格的才有管制請問各位做農作產銷設施生產設施管理設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15904.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15927.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
國保一國保二都是既有的既有的通通都可以維持原狀不會拆還可以繼續使用可以做農作生產設施管理設施加工設施集運設施既有的都可以水產設施既有的你現在在做的都可以只有你不可以再申請那畜牧設施也一樣喔對 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15929.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15945.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
可以續養設施、養情、養畜牧業都可以?是,就原有合法申請都可以。農業,那我問你農舍可不可以?農舍這就必須要回到農法條例。農法條例說可以就可以,可不可以做民宿? |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15947.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15973.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
民宿就要由各地方政府自己依照這個當地所謂偏遠地區的認定相關的民宿是限於原區域計劃你原來所編定是農牧用地、林業用地、養殖用地、礦業用地要符合農發條例的規定通通都原來就有的就許可鉤炸可以的未來還可以對,原來可以的都還可以所以這個國土計畫法是洪水猛獸嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15976.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15989.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
大家說不能再靜待、不能再起聲,通通都可以,那為什麼把它講得這麼不堪呢?現在的重點就是說,作為一個地方行政署長,不能簡單說要選管地、要選市長,選到就好,不是!選管地、要選市長是對內政務要扛起空間規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15998.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16001.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
你還要訂出發展的策略目標因為這個發展的策略目標所以你要規劃出對應的空間秩序 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16018.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16018.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
是不是國土計畫法害的? |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16049.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16072.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
這個我們在這裡要講說不要一句都是中央不要一句都是國土計畫法我們再說一遍地方政府的國土計畫還有這個國土這個功能分區的劃設都由地方政府自己決定認為未來的發展願景要怎麼劃都由地方政府去空間規劃而即便規劃成國保一、國保二 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16076.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16081.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
我們仍然對從來既有的使用不會剝奪掉未來甚至有的像民宿、有的像農舍都還可以繼續依照農法條例繼續蓋都可以申請然後許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16094.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16099.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
並不是如大家所擔心的這麼的這個法律這麼的不堪而我們今天在這裡要說啦我們本來是2加2全國國土計畫各縣市國土計畫再加上國土功能分區2加2加2 6年這個法律我當初在制定的時候我們就想過要給人地方政府空間和時間所以就讓他們慢慢調適 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16121.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16148.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
那上一次修法我們同意他說我真的來不及那我們再放寬三年變成二加三加四現在大家認為不行的理由到底是什麼是不願意去溝通還是因為不能夠唯一的變化是什麼國土計畫法實施以後唯一只有一個改變不能夠再個案變更但是也可以通案變更五年通盤檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16149.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16157.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
不能你買一堆堆列好了這塊地馬上就要來申請變更只是不能這樣子而已說得簡單的要插台幣也不簡單啦給麻煩一塊啦只是不能夠個案變更五年的通盤檢討都可以繼續變更 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16168.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16192.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
我們不知道說大家為什麼現在突然就好照顧原住民喔事實上國土計畫法實施以後對於原住民族也有特殊化的土地使用管制而且比以前區域計畫法還更有彈性還包括主動給規劃農事及簡化土地申請的程序輔導原住民族住宅合法使用等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16193.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16210.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
當然也有管制的部分 原來的管制繼續管制的也有所以並不是說好像當然就是說都中央的不對洪水猛瘦 這個法律不可行 不是現在我們要求地方政府要扛起責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16211.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16224.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
地方署長更要扛起溝通的責任他明明就什麼都可以為什麼把他講成什麼都不可以的樣子好 謝謝林淑芬委員不曉得你要講一句嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16226.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16241.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
非常感謝委員好 這不同的立場總是有嘛希望內政部強化溝通好不好好 謝謝下一位是謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員好謝一鳳委員好不在那下一位我們請武力華委員提出質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16252.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16263.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
謝謝主席 有請部長、營建署長還有園民會好 請部長、署長和署長備詢部長好對對我們原住民來講這個國土計畫法其實對我們來講是很重要的因為從賴副總統他的救錯礦缺的房子那個案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16281.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16301.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
其實他曝露的是多少原住民幾十年來的困境他也需要被解決所以我們對於國土計畫法的上路我們其實是非常的期待那我記得我來立法院109年的4月17剛好就碰到了國土計畫法修正三讀通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16302.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16329.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
我記得我當時在三讀發言我有特別提到多出來的這個三年一定要考量原住民欠缺的這些用地需求來寬列給縣市政府經費因為他必須要有一些調查之類的基本功那非常感謝我們內政部營建署我們也編列了一億給地方縣市政府來去做部落環境的基本調查或者是去做部落溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16330.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16350.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
當然這件事情我也要向所有縣市的公務員說一聲感謝因為替他們增加了非常多的一個工作跟時間我想請教部長縣市政府從合定日起4個月內需完成招標結案後一個月內要檢証執行成果報告我就想知道目前有哪些縣市已經結案 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16352.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16377.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
委員 這個應該是新的案子因為這是去年9月18號的時候來合訂所以現在應該都還在進行當中所以我就是要問這個問題為什麼因為國土計畫法明年4月30前要完成公告那地方政府也要在今年的6月底前把這個國土功能分區提交內政部那我看到我們內政部也一直標榜 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16378.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16398.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
國土計畫法是第一步納入原住民族空間規劃的法令也特別提到它對於我們的青年返鄉是很有幫助的並且一直標榜我們是做因地制宜的土地管制規則所以我想要請教部長署長國土計畫法能不能夠依法如期上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16401.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16421.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
目前我們正在努力所以就是努力當中嘛有點辛苦我要跟部長其實要溝通的是說我們其實部落幾乎幾乎很辛苦都在做部落說明會說明會聽完了呢他們也很多很多的問題會跑來問我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16423.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16452.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
那有很多很多的謠言啊那我也不知道是不是謠言總之他們就會覺得說我被劃入國土國保一國保二就會怎麼樣怎麼樣那為什麼不能被納入農山城市好那大家現在最最嚴重的對我們原住民來講因為我們知道嗎像這些災害潛勢區水源水質保護區國家公園他其實都會納入國保一但是我們也了解如果我住在 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16453.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16468.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
這些國保一國保二的地方但是呢我的既有住宅就是105年5月1號以前我們都知道可以把它變成合法用地那我就想知道說這些部落公共設施未來的新增住宅他要怎麼樣因地制宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16471.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16491.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
這也是委員有努力在爭取鄉民地區整體規劃很重要的目的你有透過鄉規這些地區會被找得出來是我知道那現在我們的重點困境就是我們原住民所居住的地區我看這個資料他如果是在環境敏感地區是高達45% |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16493.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16517.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
我瞭解所以我現在就是要知道您一定會想要告訴我嘛因為我之前質詢我也一直問嘛有原住民族土地管制規則會做例外規定嗎那我現在就是想要知道我要確保我們原住民族土地管制規則他到底會不會優於國土保育區的規則我說明一下因為基本上原住民族地區他的土管就是Follow那一個但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16518.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16535.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
你要擔心的是說像比如說我是土石流的地區對那我們會依據這個潛勢圖然後也透過相關地區整理過要做必要的相關的地形地址的這個探勘再把它做一個更細緻化的分類是這樣才能找出真正適合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16536.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16539.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
所以我去年8月我有看到我們的第39次的研商會議記錄那國土署你有要求因為到底這個國保1跟農事之間就是您剛剛說的到底它的面積有多少受影響的會有多少要去盤點嗎結果如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16557.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16574.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
跟委員報告就當然各個相規都有在處理啦那第二個也會告訴委員就是說只要這個原則就是說這些原則在原住民那也就是說還沒有盤出來啦還沒有盤出來啦到時候這些東西出來放到原住民圖板現在已經放在圖板 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16574.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16589.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
他是會優於我們一般國土的﹖好我就要你這句話會優於嗎好謝謝署長那我請教一下那個原民會的杜璋處長那被劃入國保一國保二的原住民族土地能不能依據原住民族土地管制規則剛才署長其實也講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16592.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16610.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
原則上我們目前那個管制規則裡面訂的條文就是剛剛你提的這兩個區塊那我們事實上例外的處理比如說一淵水地區或是歷史災害地區或是特定水保區可能這個危及到生命財產安全我們會有在管制上會提及但是其他的部分會 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16612.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16630.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
我現在就是希望我們善用這個原住民族土地管制規則去適度開放這一些原住民族地區的國土保育區的規則落實我們一直在講的因地制宜好嗎那另外也是有一個問題因為108年國土計畫法他呢當時我看到我們的手冊本來是要框部落4點啦那後來呢以15戶或50人的聚落 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16640.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16666.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
我在109年3月我的第一次質詢我就有提到說那3戶以上的後來就有微型聚落那112年10月我又質詢那個獨立戶的因為非常多人關心當時也說會例外規定那現在我就是想說會不會拿去縣市做一個認定還是說要放在原住民族土地管制規則由中央法規統一規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16669.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16670.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
會有縣市政府認定嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16685.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16692.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
我現在就是繼續問請問一下如果我想要申請新建住宅其實明年上路以後大家都會以為說105年以前我們的用地就可以合法化了以後我們就可以來申請使用執照那農地以後也可以蓋房子嗎真的是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16714.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16716.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
署長,署長真的是這樣嗎?那是建築物合法的部分啊對啊但是大家聽完說明會都以為啊很多的憧憬啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16728.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16746.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
對於建築的理解我都有幫忙說明了我知道對建築的理解比較單一他忘記如果按照先行要相規嘛對不對第一個相規第二個你還有相對應的建築物的配套設施是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16748.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16765.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
所以你們有補助嗎?我們也要求補助嗎?好,現在我們原住民有55個鄉鎮喔!你們110、111、121目前補助的是11個喔!結果呢?它的比率佔比是24%喔!我就不曉得說55個原鄉要排到什麼時候?有規劃嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16767.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16773.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
要鼓勵他們來申請啊是啊我現在就是有點緊張署長你知道嗎我去年8月有幫忙做一件事喔我把這11個已經申請到相歸的齁我邀請他們一起來做一個座談結果呢我要求他們去公佈他們做的東西喔我跟署長講 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16786.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16799.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
都是圖片而已喔!紙上談兵喔!那個最重要的那些工程的細部規劃還有那些基礎設施、排水道路等等等都沒有喔!表示大家都沒有概念喔!那你問他說怎麼這麼簡單這個相規怎麼以後拿出來去解決問題他說只有300萬要怎麼做喔! |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16805.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16832.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
這個怎麼辦?這個怎麼辦?這個怎麼辦?我希望現在大家有很多的憧憬我們希望不要失信於民好不好不要畫那個大餅空歡喜一場所以我就要請原民會主委就是105年5月1號前這個居住用地的輔導合法化期程這個也是會議中你們說要訂的不知道訂好了沒有那國土署的我們的署長我也要請教那些既有建物的調查統計數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16835.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16860.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
也要拿出來那我不好意思主席我就最後一分鐘我就直接要求因為工廠管理輔導犯法第7項他是有定落日條款可是農地的工廠當時經濟部推估是4.5萬戶他的落日是20年我就不曉得說我們國土計畫法有沒有落日條款而且我們這些既有建物到底幾戶統計出來了沒有到底要訂定多少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16861.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16870.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
這個我都不知道所以我就直接要求了我是希望說第一個要定定輔導期限的落日條款而且要明定中央地方政府的輔導責任這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16873.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16901.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
好 這個部分我們會再來討論那包含相關的一定要討論而且我聽到很多委員都會說為什麼原住民可以喔你們是因地制宜喔我是希望說這個因為土地它是土地地理環境的位置它有不同的一個利用條件就像平地的建壁率怎麼可能跟山上建壁率一樣平地的農地坡度怎麼可以跟山上的農地坡度一樣尤其我們台灣我們的地形是這麼獨特的地方本來早就應該要有這種因地 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16902.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16904.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
原住民族土地管制規則另外有規定這樣好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16930.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16938.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
好,謝謝署長,謝謝署長,謝謝部長,謝謝主席好,辛苦了下一位是徐富軌委員,請提出質詢謝謝主席,有請林部長部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
16960.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
16976.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
國土計畫法還沒有實施之前本席的轄序裡面有一個叫做肯定國家公園肯定國家公園的鄉親他比較關切的是所謂的一個土地的一個利用的問題所以在這邊要請教一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
16977.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
16980.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
但是有些第4通的案件到目前為止都還沒有確定那這個請教部長進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
16997.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17022.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
事通的部分在今年的2月2日內政部已經有提送補充資料還有說明的意見到國防會國防會在今年的3月15日已經含附給行政院研究上同意計畫的內容我們最近就是等行政院在核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17023.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17050.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
部長我想這是很多居民的一個期待這個檢討的部分是4通的部分對對對可以請部長這邊再加快速度現在已經到行政院行政院核定這個案子就確定那5通的部分目前的進度5通的部分現在在收集意見OK什麼時候可以完成就是看這個收集意見的一個進度就是依照程序來進行部長我想你也當過市長那當然我們本席這邊也接到很多鄉親的陳情就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17051.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17080.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
大家對於所謂的一些原本的私有土地被劃為特別景觀區或是自然保護區限制了他們的所謂的一個使用那甚至造成很多的民怨那這部分有很多的聲音是希望把所謂的私有土地要劃出國家公園那部長對這個部分有沒有什麼樣的看法我覺得這個整個的國家公園的範圍還是要整體思考那個別個案的一個意見我想就是到委員會上面大家集體去做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17081.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17082.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
這部分就是個案提出,然後個案來做討論? |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17103.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17127.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
那我想甚至有一些私有土地被劃成一個計畫道路也一直沒有所謂的開闢計畫那這部分是不是部裡面有沒有什麼樣的一個進度這部分看委員指的是哪一條如果是計畫道路的話看委員指的是哪一條那如果他有開闢的這個急迫性或者他優先順序的話我們可以來做考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17127.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17144.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
部長那因為現在其實就當地很多的現況來講是也或許也沒有開闢的必要性那是不是有考慮要換立議名或是做怎麼樣如果他確定沒有開闢的必要性的話那當然可以在這個通盤檢討的時候把他提出來做這個檢討的一個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17146.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17169.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
這部分還是要拜託部長澤比拉多關心因為我想說這個看管處當然通常都很用心但是因為長期以來對於所謂的一個生態保育還有跟這個對環境的影響也好有很多的不同的意見那我們也很肯定就是國家公園這個對於整個觀光生態保育的功能但是對於百姓的權益問題還是要重視是當然好 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17171.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17194.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
我第二個問題要請教部長東港的都市計畫二通從92年7月28日發布實施第三次的通盤檢討是從98年9月啟動到現在將近15年都沒有核定從二通計畫的效應來講有13年的空窗期請教部長我們東港都市計畫三通目前的進度這個請吳署長來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17198.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17211.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
各位報告因為東港的部分可能我要回去再確認一下我知道之前有審過也有退過那可能就是要看他最近送來的時候是什麼狀況那所以我們會積極來協助看看他的問題是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17212.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17237.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
市長我想這個東港的都市計畫啟動15年都沒有完成通盤檢討這個是通案還是個案?它裡面有一些個案還是有問題有問題是那部長我想針對都市計畫法第26條的規定每3到5年應該通盤檢討一次像這樣子15年都沒有進行通盤檢討實在是有違這個我們都市計畫的一個精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17239.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17267.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
那像這種情形我們部裡面有沒有什麼樣的一個輔導措施跟委員報告因為他這算是在審議過程拖了很久那其實在全國各縣市多少有這些案例通常就是裡面的案件是自愛難省的我們會退回給他再重新修正那可能又遇到因為自愛難省就放著不管因為整個都市發展我了解因為這也是鄉鎮公所的權責鄉鎮公所縣市政府的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17269.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17278.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
我們在最後的一個審議的階段那所以委員關心的這一件我想我回去會查查看看怎麼協助他們把這個案件做一個適當的調整能夠讓委員會這邊來加速來審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17282.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17302.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
對啦,因為東港的發展也是很重要的發展非常快是是是,所以這要特別拜託一下部長跟署長那是不是也請部長可以盤點一下相關的個案這個時間拖那麼長的原因是不是可以制定一個所謂的輔導原則那讓這個通辦檢討能夠有效的進行是不是可以請部長這邊來加快速度一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17302.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17331.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
我請吳署長下去了解一下好那謝謝部長也謝謝署長本期的質詢到這邊結束好謝謝徐副委員的質詢下一位是張祺凱委員張祺凱委員張祺凱委員好不在再下一位是蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17333.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17361.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
蘇清泉委員好不在再下一位是陳雪生委員陳雪生委員陳雪生委員好不在再下一位是邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17363.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17388.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
好,不在再下一位是何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員我唸幾聲了?三聲了?好,不在再下一位是林德福委員林德福委員林德福委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17391.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17402.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
好,不在再下一位是黃建豪委員到門口了是吧來了,黃建豪委員請提出質詢好,謝謝召委請部長部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17420.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17423.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
我們目前這個意見都很多不過我們目前都是照原定的一個期程來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17448.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17476.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
因為目前是不是只收到所謂三個縣市的相關的規劃?三個縣市的這個圖說齁那這個功能分區圖那其他的縣市預定的一個期程是在今年6月底之前我想部長反映一下縣市面就是說其實這當然先講一下我的概念因為我覺得這種國土規劃法、國土計畫法這部分我想這個人民財產、私有財產理論上在整個國家的架構裡面應該是一個最上位的一個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17477.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17498.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
今天你要去做這個國土規劃之前為什麼會有這麼多的反彈的聲音或是這麼多人沒辦法接受我想是因為他的這個土地使用被限制相關的權利所以說他當然透過地方政府他會去反彈那我不知道這一段內政部要怎麼樣去溝通要怎麼樣去跟民眾或跟地方政府做說服 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17500.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17514.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
倒不是跟地方政府做說服這邊跟委員報告其實所有的功能分區都是地方政府畫的並不是內政部畫的所以現在是進入到第三階段縣市政府要把他所畫的這些功能分區要送到內政部來進行審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17516.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17541.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
當然這個計畫當然我想講我要先講這個法令當然是好事啦就是說對全國的土地使用分析對全國的國土計畫是個好事因為這樣子明顯的大家才能夠很明確的知道說這個整個國家的發展要往什麼樣的地方去走那我的土地怎麼樣來利用那當然剛剛部長是說這個誰來劃是由地方政府來劃那地方政府來劃之前當然上位指導員者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17541.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17559.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
內政部要求要求大家要來去交這樣的途說那所以今天要講的是說對於像這種反彈或對於說他土地被規劃在某些區域裡面他覺得他不滿意的話那這部分的協調是交由地方政府呢還是內政部這邊會有一些相關的措施跟作為來補償或是來怎麼樣來提高民眾參與的意願是 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17565.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17589.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
其實這個已經持續了蠻長的一段時間所以這個跟這個縣市的這個民眾來做說明其實持續都在做特別是在去年一整年其實各地方政府大概都在進行相關的一個說明跟公聽會不過民眾他因為對新的一個制度他這個不完全理解所以大家當然會有心裡面會有很多的一個疑問 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
17590.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
17614.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
主要是說他對未來性他可以怎麼使用他不是很清楚不過經過說明之後簡單來說就是他現在如果是合法使用的話未來還是一樣可以合法使用沒有問題另外也不會話了下去就完完全全說通通都不可能去做一些修正跟調整其實一樣有訂定了一個5年通盤檢討的一個這樣的一個制度在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
17614.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
17633.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
所以這個今天要對民眾講因為你今天講說6月前這各縣市的這個這個圖說都能夠完整依照期程是在今年6月前但據我所知啦我覺得可能實務上還是會很多困難就剛剛提到了民眾對自己未來使用的權益他有沒有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
17634.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
17648.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
去平衡我覺得這是會有一個地方政府會有很大的壓力他短期內要在這個6月前送出我覺得是有困難那當然回到這個土地使用分區的問題我想對於地方政府的這個權限的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
17649.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
17673.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
在過去的這個以臺中市為例臺中市有這個所謂都市計畫區那臺中市今天臺中市是一個完整的城市沒錯但是臺中市它有很多不同的這個都市計畫的分類那過去在通過所謂都市計畫法裡面關於貸金使用的部分這個容積移轉的容積移轉的貸金它當初立法的目的是希望說讓地方政府有這個權限能夠來 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
17682.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
17703.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
提供容積代替的制度是能夠相當於私有產權他願意提供出來來做公共設施這是當初立法的一個目的那現在問題是說不同的使用分區跟台中市為例台中市表面上同一個市場沒錯那台中市下面又分了很多不同的都市計畫區但不同都市計畫區之間的容積代替不能移轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
17704.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
17705.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
所以這一件事情就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
17707.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
17734.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
業界或是整個政府在使用財政上面越都會區的地方他要使用容積代替移轉是非常方便的就是說這個同一個計畫區裡面原市區的人他就可以互相的來使用這個都市計畫容積代替的問題但是比如台中縣市合併原台中縣的這個地方雖然也叫台中市但是因為它是不同的都市計畫區所以原台中市的這個代替他就不能使用在原來的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
17735.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
17752.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
原來的其他都市計畫區裏面所以我要問的是說內政部在這個事情上面有沒有什麼樣的考量跟想法有沒有可能去放寬授權用對方政府在同一個縣市裏面去做通盤的計畫跟考量還是還是要照原定的計畫在原來的都市計畫區裏面只做原來的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
17754.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
17782.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
這個是跟委員報告他最重要的精神是在同一個主要計畫裡面那為什麼因為在同一個主要計畫裡面我們隆基並不是說無限市的長他必須要看這個地方的一個發展未來的發展能量所以今天你如果這個地方的公共設施的貸金拿去別的地方用的時候其實你是影響到原這個都市計畫區裡面民眾的一個權益因為他的公共設施的一個開闢的這個財運就受到影響所以最重要的精神是在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
17782.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
17804.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
我可以理解那原來的精神但是實務上還是要喊到實務面上部長反映的是說當然這個今天時間有限我要最後跟部長溝通這個問題是說因為實際上狀況就變得像以台中市為例原市區當然它的發展就非常的快速但是在其他地區因為這個容積殆低的問題它沒有辦法去讓這個市政通盤的來使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
17804.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
17824.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
所以他的城鄉差距我如果會因為這個問題我覺得會差距越來越大就會很集中在發展這個獨自計畫區但是其他的周邊的其他獨自計畫區會因為沒有辦法在這邊使用沒辦法移轉出去之後這一邊這邊他的這個持續效應的問題他這邊的發展他就會是被嚴重的落後所以我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
17825.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
17843.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
在同一個城市的這個狀況裡面應該去思考說能不能授權能不能放寬相關的融金代金移轉制度讓地方政府他更有權限去處理這件事情加上現在的國土計畫法未來在這個事情上面讓地方因為地方政府是面對第一線的民眾壓力包含說地方民代也是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
17844.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
17860.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
他是第一線要去面對這個調整的這個壓力所以如果能夠對政府能夠適度的放寬讓這件事情能夠讓地方政府有個通盤檢討的這個方向的話我覺得對於後續在推動這個這個使用土地使用分區來講會有比較大的助力 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
17860.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
17861.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
下一位有號委員有號委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
17890.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
17918.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
憂浩委員好不在鄧記發言的委員除不在場者以外其餘均已發言完畢我們詢答環節結束第二委員麥玉珍、林德福、陳俊宇、劉建國、王宏威、張啟凱所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報第三書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位一週以內書面答覆並複製本會本次議程處理完畢現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
17930.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
17930.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
委員謝謝 明天見 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
17960 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
17961.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
國土計畫推動辦理情形 |