| IVOD_ID |
15741 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15741 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-23-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-20T08:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-20T12:05:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:35:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd8729a3a0ba87e8cc9b5fa2f296a935343be8d109af184be484b42fafdc19250d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「電子簽章法修正草案」案。
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「電子簽章法修正草案」案。
【第一案如經院會復議，則不予審查。】
【本日僅進行詢答】
【3月18日、20日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:29:59 - 12:05:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1813.81 |
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1839.51 |
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繼續開會現在介紹在場的委員葛如鈞委員林國成委員廖先祥委員現在介紹在場的官員數位發展部唐鳳部長法務部廖江憲參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1842.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1867.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
司法院民事卿張宇佳﹖法官抱歉。經管會法律服務處李玉德副處長。內政部資訊服務司嚴文長副司長。經濟部法制司黃婉玉專門委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1869.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1881.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
交通部交通科技及資訊師王冬淇副司長首先請數位部唐鳳部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1890.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1913.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
趙偉各位委員各位先進大家早那書面報告相信大家有收到所以我就大概3、5分鐘檢要報告那我們今天要討論的是電子簽章法的修正草案那這是這一部法案在二十幾年來第一次修正那在二十幾年前的情況跟現在有很大的不同主要的原因就是因為中間有疫情的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1914.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1932.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1933.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1952.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那我們在一年半前我們數位部成立之後我們馬上就來啟動這個修法的作業。我們先是用韓式的方式在111年的12月就發布了說有怎麼樣子的效力的電子簽章才能夠合乎電子簽章法。那就包含房間常用的Adobe Sign、DocuSign |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1953.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1974.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
等等的電子簽章那也包含國際的標準組織像美國的國家標準研究院NIST或者是ISO就這個技術對接的方式就可以生效那所以這次的修法一部分是把我們在韓式的這個部分就是不會只是因為這些是電子簽章或文件就喪失掉它的效力這個把它明文入法這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1974.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2000.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
第二個是說大家在紙本的時候除了蓋章之外還有一個概念叫應見證明就是說去證明說這個章只有你本人持有這是一個效力比較強的我們現在把它叫數位簽章這個看歐盟或其他的國家都有這樣子的分級那我們這個比較強的分級呢我們現在呢也把它放到新版的這個法案裡面那在這個狀態裡面我們就推定他是本人簽名具有比較強的法律效力 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2000.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2019.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
但當然大家也會問說那如果我還沒有準備好要接受電子簽章或文件怎麼辦呢那我們在法律裡面為了兼顧這個數位包容我們也說要有合理的方式給予相對人反對用電子簽章或電子文件的機會那當然如果沒有反對就是推定同意採用電子形式這是第四點 |
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2019.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2038.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那第五點呢就是我們現在看各國大概都比較沒有像我們這樣行政機關可以公告就排除掉電子簽章法的適用所以呢接下來我們也會跟各部會合作透過公建預算等等的方式去足而編列把他們的系統升級到支援電子簽章跟電子文件特別是數位簽章的部分 |
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2039.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2066.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那這一段期間我們設定成3年就是3年之後除非各機關是用法律來排除不然的話本來這些韓式時效的這個部分就不再做數了這是第5點那第6點是說我們剛剛提到在技術對接互認只要在安全性相當的情況下現在我們看到實務上大概就是國際組織能夠來看這種技術對接的方式只要能夠技術對接安全相當我們就可以互相承認數為前章 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2067.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2092.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那至於效益方面那當然除了在電子商務跟跨境商務上面的效益之外有一個很重要的就是KYC就是客戶身份確認舉例來說像投資廣告現在其實有一些廣告平臺已經是要求所謂的實名登記但是因為沒有數位簽章的關係一方面比較耗時這個審查那二方面也很容易被AI、省委等等技術騙過去所以我們現在就是接下來會跟內政部一起推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2093.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2109.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
在這種網絡廣告平台先從投資廣告開始就需要來採認這種數位簽章那以上就大概跟委員們報告那很期待待會的詢答謝謝現在請司法院張法官報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2118.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2140.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
主席、各位委員還有各位先進、大家好。今天奉邀列席貴人會就審議這個電子簽章法草案代表本院進行報告並被質詢。以下說明本院就電子簽章法草案的修正意見。那我們認為司法程序它有它各類程序法規範的目的跟訴訟要件。那與一般行政行為的性質不盡相同。 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2141.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2156.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
８無法以本草案第一條所定的立法目的促進數位經濟及數位服務之發展為由：令司法行為均統一適用電子簽章法全部的內容。那倘如果訴訟程序性質它是適宜推行電子訴訟的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2158.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2177.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們都可以從各類的程序法規的規範這個訴訟文書以電子文件形式為之還有電子簽章法的適用方法例如像我們的憲法訴訟的訴狀使用科技設備傳送辦法第二條第三項它就有規定以司法院服務平台傳送之訴狀應法令規定應以書面為之 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2181.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2205.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
及因簽名或蓋章者得依電子簽章法第4條及第9條的規定以電子文件及電子簽章為之。這樣的規範方式對推行電子訴訟及電子簽章制度並沒有阻礙。那本草案第一條第二項規定考量司法程序的特殊性將司法程序認為規範的立法意旨本院競表贊同也尊重立法院最後的決議。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2205.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2223.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那如何妥適規範施法程序適用電子簽章法的規定本院的意見將於後續修法的過程中適時提出那另外就這個說明3的施法程序範圍我們建議整列憲法訴訟的程序必知明確以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2228.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2237.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
本日進行電子簽章法修正草案等兩案的審查現在請葛如鈞委員說明提案要職時間兩分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2255.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2272.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
謝謝李坤澤趙偉排審電子簽章法草案這一次電子簽章法的修法討論是電子簽章法自90年立法後時隔22年的大幅修正這20多年來不只是全球科技快速發展政府組織的架構也和當時大不相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2272.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2289.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以此次電子簽章法的修法除了切實實務的需求來調整之外也要更貼近科技普及的現況以及未來的基礎上去提升民眾的便利性那我的版本當中將數位簽章與電子簽章的定位更加的明確化 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2290.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2306.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
adequ此以立未來在實際使用上的分級跟區隔並且透過憑證機構所簽發的憑證帶給數位簽章更加嚴謹的簽章效力同時針對電子文件的保存上並同保存的資訊當中除了收發文的 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2307.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2329.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
也應該包含網路協定的位置簽署歷程日期時間等等其中亦可包含電子文件特徵例如區塊鏈資訊為改善現行電子簽章受到各類行政機關公告排除適用的現象未來將電子簽章的適用排除明定必須依法律才能排除以提升電子簽章的普及性及可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2329.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2353.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
此外明定主管機關應確實掌握電子簽章法之執行情形並針對國際法規和市場需求有所了解每年公布讓產業和民眾了解針對原本排除電子簽章的適用的各類公告待本法修正施行後應該於一年之後停止適用科技快速演進不該讓民眾一等再等最後期待電子簽章法修正後能夠帶給民眾和產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2355.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2384.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
真正提升便利性與安全性的生活肯請各位委員共同支持謝謝葛如鈞委員發言完畢現在進行選答先宣告以下事項發言時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2386.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2407.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
各委員如有提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位委員葛如鈞委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2421.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2423.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
主席有請數位部唐鳳部長請部長兩號 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2432.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2455.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
部長今天在這裡有這個機會和您再次面對面首先我想再次表達昨天我的總質詢之所以這樣呈現AI生成的影片是希望陳建仁院長能夠苦民所苦與民眾感同身受真正的詐騙集團並不會給民眾一個真的假的選項讓民眾有二選一的機會院長沒有真正的財產損失都感到如此的憤怒不滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2456.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2479.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
＼更何況是真的被詐騙集團騙得傾家蕩產的民眾內心會有多麼的不平和委屈。這是我昨天想要轉達給陳院長的感受。AI影片只是一個傳達的工具並不是我質詢的重點。希望唐鳳部長能夠代替我再次向陳院長表達民眾的心聲也希望能夠有機會再次和院長還有和部長多一點當面的交流。 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2480.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2500.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
接下來我想感謝交通委員會李崑澤趙偉安排這個議程讓電子簽章法可以更快的在委員會進行審查也期望在審查的過程當中可以和各部會以及各委員會多進行交流討論讓法案的內容更加的完善上一次的質詢也非常感謝唐鳳部長和我們的立場一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2500.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2527.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
都認為需要進速地在政府部門以及民間推動電子簽章的應用。質詢的時候部長也承諾會針對26個排除電子簽章適用的部會會積極溝通。質詢後也有數位部人士透過媒體表示有不少員工告排除適用的部會以表達轉支持的立場。適用電子簽章法的共識高所以在法案正式開始逐條審查前 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2528.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2553.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我真的需要想要向部長確認這個共識到底有多高我們這張板子又出現了我們現在還會畫那個政治標記這是這個板子第三次出現我們想問一下表列的26個政府機關裡面目前還有多少部會排除電子簽章法的適用我會準備一支筆如果有排除我就把它劃掉我們法律院推行之前我們就希望可以都劃掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2555.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2564.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
因為我所知就是有一些他是在內部討論程序裡面還沒有用一個新的公告蓋還沒有新的公告所以那就等待下一次這個板子再出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2565.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2590.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那對於這些仍然排除電子簽章適用的政府機關數位部要如何協助他們加速採用電子簽章的進程像是外交部的跨國程序啊司法院我們上次提到的司法程序啊請問數位部這邊會如何協助好謝謝委員我們目前是透過跟包含內政部也就是自然憑證行動自然憑證的主管機關合作那去編列相關的預算透過不管是公共建設或其他的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2590.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2593.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
去確保說每個部會他的系統整合商不用從頭來建制。 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2620.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2637.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
去年一整年台灣的詐騙案件呢是三萬八千件還不含黑數您認為假設電子簽章法年底公布實行我們一整年的詐騙案件數可以降低多少請部長能不能提出具體目標好謝謝委員的質詢我要先強調這個講的是本來的電商相結束分期撲款詐騙或遊戲點數詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2639.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2659.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2659.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2674.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以投範廣告的部分我們也相信會有相當程度的下降好謝謝最後跟部長分享112年投資詐騙的比例快速攀升已經到達將近107年的3倍您被譽為天才IT大臣我們希望您了解很多的詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2675.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2694.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
也並不是只是在網路廣告上面實現現在還有很多的通訊軟體會有很多的群組他們會這個這個框稱呢自己可能是某銀行或者某單位或者某交易所這樣的一個機制呢可能會讓大家沒有辦法驗證他到底是不是這個銀行的員工是不是這個交易所的員工 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2695.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2723.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我們認為針對投資詐騙認為最簡單最有效的防範方式是不是可以讓民眾透過數位的工具直接驗證金融從業人員或投資專業者的專業身份或是查詢各種連結網站是否真的為銀行或者相關的金融機構官方發出或者擁有數位工具不是只有雲端點面線的功能我想其實這一切的出發都是利益良善的但是不是也應該更加的苦彌所苦將經費、將技術更多的運用於防詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2724.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2736.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
度絕詐騙集團從點線面全方位的滲透我們的生活當然也包含我們剛剛提到的假影片我相信我們應該要一起來努力基礎方面我們責無旁貸那法案的部分就麻煩委員支持好大家一起努力謝謝葛委員發言完畢現在請林國成委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2761.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2764.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好,請唐部長請部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2770.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2790.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
部長早,剛剛葛委員也提到大家很關心我想你對於這個電子簽章啊當然你也是行家但是葛委員也是行家他點出一個重點也就是說黃詐騙這個問題我要跟你探討的他真的是萬靈丹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2792.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2822.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以第一個我比較納悶的我們這個法在說通過以後難道說臉書、LINE、抖音你跟他的連結性你跟他的協調你就有辦法電子簽章法通過以後就有辦法去防止這些網路啊平台啊這些你如何去跟他加章說跟我們這個法來遵守所以這個才真正對於防詐是有幫助啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2822.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2850.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
所以這個部分我要聽聽部長你如何這個部分怎麼會有信心說在黃柵的部分會有所成效這第一第二現在數位簽證難道說對於打柵請問這些憑證是不是數位簽章是跟有連結關係所以部長我請教這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2852.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2869.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
非常謝謝委員的質詢喔第一個部分就是就有落地的這些大型廣告平台來說像剛剛委員提到Google跟Line當然還有Facebook這一部分當然我們都已經積極跟他們來討論包含技術的可行性那我們可以看像投信投估法就打詐無法質疑修正通過之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2870.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2892.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
說上投資廣告需要實名制而且24小時之內如果兼局後不下架要負連帶賠償責任等等那這一部分大的廣告平台像Google是已經有符合經院會的這個做法那Facebook也說接下來幾個月就會來實作所以有落地的目前配合度看起來是沒有問題不過委員剛剛提到TikTok那TikTok是沒有落地的所以這一部分確實可能要輔助以好比像說 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2893.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2922.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
內政部目前正在跟我們研擬的答詐相關的一個專法那在這邊克與他一定程度上落地的義務這樣子之後再管理起來才會比較有可能這第一部分那第二個部分委員有垂詢就是我想現在他們所謂的實名認證大概就是去拍這個身份認證反面或者護照然後透過人工或半人工的方式來審核那這個問題就是說剛才這個各位也有提到AI變造變得非常的容易所以審核的成本不斷增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2922.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2952.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2953.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2967.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
然後你就沒有辦法跟這些google啊或者LINE啊或者這些抖音這些群組你們沒有辦法去跟共同黃柵的這個部分你們沒有做事先協調一定要這個法通過以後你們才有辦法做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2969.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2984.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我們其實去年喔去年在這邊去年我記得是6月左右我就已經有在這邊講說我們需要推這個電子簽章來進行事前的源頭管理主要的原因就是我們新版的這個法案裡面有說如果你採用數位簽章 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2984.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2999.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
他推定為本人親自簽明所以這個法律效力是一個必要條件你只要有申請的人一定有這種真人之認定可是詐騙並非是只有這樣就把它視為萬能當 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3001.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3030.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以你們現在當然希望這個法通過但是不能騙老百姓說我這個法通過以後這個詐騙就會因為現在前名對於防詐這個部分的議題是高度重視的所以我還是希望你們在花園的部分要把你們的特色講出來不要把它當成這個法過了以後就是萬年單這個部長我必須要提醒你我們之後會就是聚焦在網路廣告平台的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3031.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3057.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所以我們的華的特色可以做到什麼防備的動作這OK管理可以有什麼這個嚴謹的管理OK你不要把他這個華通過以後就是黃柵的萬靈丹這一點本席是有質疑的好不好好接下來因為當然啦這個這個憑證百百種我相信部長你也知道可是民眾看了就不傻傻啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3058.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3071.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以我是覺得這個憑證很多嘛內政部的自由憑證等等政府也有很多的什麼產業憑證一大堆我要請問一下相容性的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3073.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3093.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
也就是說我們這個華、我們這個電子簽證以後跟國際的相容性還有國內的相容性你這裡怎麼做?好,委員講得真的非常好不過先講一下就有些像門號認證等等那個是認身份它並不是簽章所以這裡並不是簽章簽署 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3095.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3118.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那簽章技術要互認就是要靠國際標準組織現在在國際上我們也透過韓式說像美國的NIST是他們這一方面電子箱的標準制定者那全球的話像ISO是這一部分的制定者我們自己在導入這些自然憑證、工商憑證的時候也都是去跟國際的標準接軌所以我們不用擔心就是這一部分我們會跟國際的標準機構事實上他們也有回訪台灣可是我們現在的認證那個部長現在我們的認證 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3122.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3150.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
是各做各的喔只有我們國內就各做各的喔各管理各的喔各的程序是不一樣層次是不一樣所以這個部分部長所以我為什麼要特別去提醒你如何去如何去把它那個相容性這個部分去把它連結起來不要你做你的另外又一個新的電子簽證的另外一套管理辦法所以這個也會很複雜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3151.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3171.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
况更何況我必須要去提醒國際的相容性是非常複雜的那另外一個啦當然因為部長你這樣講因為我們民意代表本來發現的問題要提醒給部長該修的、該講的、該補的當然就要去補那另外一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3172.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3198.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我們老百姓啊你們專業的都知道我們立法委員也知道什麼叫做數位簽章什麼叫做電子簽章你要跟老百姓講得很清楚不要只有我們知道老百姓不知道你這個法的普及性跟你這個法大家共識性就會降低所以能不能跟所有全國老百姓講什麼叫做數位簽章什麼叫做電子簽章 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3199.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3214.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
沒問題電子簽章就是有一份電子文件然後我用某種方式附著在這個文件上簽了這個簽名之後這個簽名不能移到別的文件上這個部分叫電子簽章數位簽章是一種電子簽章它的特色是我這個簽名呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3215.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3238.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我是透過像政府機關等等認可的這些憑證機構有點像一個硬件證明一樣來確保說每個人都可以刻任何名字的章嘛那但是這個章呢現在是只有我能用所以就是有類似硬件證明效力的電子簽章法叫數位簽章OK來這個部分那治安就很重要囉是嗎啊不然他什麼都可以詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3239.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3262.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那資安就很重要可是我看到你們這裡資安的部分沒有什麼嚴謹的資安管理所以部長我必須要去提醒這些簽章都OK你這個法我們也都同意但是問題資安的部分你們換的是管理不過嚴謹所以這個部分我必須要去提醒部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3264.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3287.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我已經有提示同仁還沒有三度通過這個法案我們就先對憑證機構來建立這樣子的登錄跟管理的制度很謝謝委員提醒好這個部分最後我還在問問你這個憑證機構的監督到底是一次性的許可或者定期審核花照這個可以不可以告訴本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3287.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3310.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
是 這個其實法案裡面有寫就是說他要先有一個憑證的這個安全作業基準那我們隨時發現說他沒有合乎這個基準的話那這個我們就可以撤銷對於這個憑證機構的要求是啦是一致性嗎當然不是一次吃到飽而是說隨著技術增加比方說面子密碼學等等我們會有一個定期審查一個機制好這個特別還是要有一個管理制度好不好好謝謝主席謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3312.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3334.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
林委員發言完畢。現在請林佩祥委員發言。主席,請唐部長上台。請唐部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3340.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3356.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
委員好唐部長我想先請問一下我們是不是要獨創一個電子簽章的系統平台還是應用程式並應用在台灣的各領域之中不是從現在開始獨創我們現在本來就已經有像自然憑證行動自然憑證工商憑證團體憑證等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3358.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3382.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
因為我認為其實我是認可說電子簽章是未來的全球趨勢但是這個有一個盲點是我們跟一般民眾不知道的就是說電子簽章這不是像是我們一般覺得像是Windows還是iOS一個全球性的一個platform一個OS而且它是不是也不是一個支援的APP所以這個沒有一個硬性的全國一個國際標準讓全世界一直使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3382.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3406.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
而這樣子講啦以本席的職場經驗我以前在港務公司認知過剛好我是第一屆港務公司的專業人員那時候港務公司光為了要整合高雄港、基隆港、台中港的電子公文系統都耗日費時花了很大的精神去做橫向溝通而你要把每一個不同的港務局他們自己八包製作並使用多年的系統來做整合都超大型工程了 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3407.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3429.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
本期無法想像要把全臺灣的中央加地方政府各個部門來去做徹底的整合跟確認橫向溝通無礙是多麼困難的事情。更包括過說我們今天講的電子簽章不是只有公部門而已包括私部門甚至在未來還要到國外去然後要跟美國甚至說我們認可的國家來去做溝通。 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3431.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3443.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我認為現在我們除了透過接下來審查程序我們來去完善所謂電子簽章法的內容之外我認為三讀之後如何落地實施然後把我剛剛講這一塊能夠輔導他們盡快能夠過關這才是我覺得我們應該重視的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3448.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3475.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
有媒體報導說有人透露有人透露電子簽章執行中央部分在一年多之內可能做不太到可能明顯很勉強地做得到但是地方政府比較困難因為地方政府的縣市公所可能連專職的資訊人員都沒有恐然符合到要求那既然我們已經知道有像這樣的問題請問數位發展部的因應策略或是什麼好謝謝委員吹詢委員可能記得我們有一個發六千塊的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3476.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3494.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那個系統我們現在已經改成公共建設意思是說以後地方政府如果要做類似的發放的工作的話他不用從頭再去建置他直接把那一套系統拿來改個網站的門面他就可以去進行這方面的發放我舉這個例子的意思就是說我們現在定義數位的公共建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3495.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3514.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
就是地方政府可以直接使用而且在上面再進行改作舉例來說像行動自然人憑證裡面簽章、驗章的那個部分我們已經協調內政部這部分他已經公開的可以提供出來所以地方政府如果有人所擔心的就是不一定有那麼多充足的預算他可以直接來使用我會蠻疑慮的你如果單單純純把發6000塊的系統拿來跟我們未來的電子簽章來做連結我覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3522.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3546.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
發6000也牽涉到非常多各自的傳說這個其實自然要求也是非常高的是的可是這跟電子簽章需要的自然完全不同level這個是我們電子簽章需要的這個自然的安全性更高的多不過跟發6000塊不太一樣6000塊我個人認為這個我一聽起來覺得說我想不只我這樣認為可能在我們台下的每個委員都覺得這兩個直接拿來做比較是有點太過於籠統跟兒戲 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3549.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3569.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我想並不是因為像我們光是要跟所有ATM去做借劫或者是跟郵局借劫等等他後面有非常多資安跟各自的考量不過委員剛剛的提醒是正確的我很同意就是說地方政府對於這些資安他是有責任但是他不一定有那麼多充足的人員跟經費這部分我們就會透過剛剛講公共建設的方式來幫忙他們提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3570.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3578.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
好,既然部長你剛剛也講到說必須採購設備必須補充人力那我這樣想請問一下說為了擴大我們電子簽章的適用為了加速我剛剛講各個政府機關來加速所謂的數位轉型請問114年數位部是不是有編列相關預算從軟硬兼施軟體跟硬體各方面幫助各級機關來加來編列預算加速我們電子簽章的應用 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3596.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3599.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3618.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3646.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
然後在那個我們的就是數證室的部分剛剛提到6000的部分部長我們也編了好幾億元3、4億一年給全國來去做數去做這樣的這種轉型其實遠遠不夠的其實你自己也知道每一個我是認為3、4億全國我怎麼在講的是一個全部通用的系統並不是說他們還需要人去安裝部署而是大家都在上面進行使用所以關於這樣子的公共建設我們有4支那大概每一支都是在3億左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3649.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3663.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
市長我覺得我需要更完整的書面沒問題我們絕對書面提供給你然後單單純純說全國的全國中央加地方的各個部門只是要扣3、4億年的系統我們有4支類似這樣的公建計畫是一年3、4億還是一年3、4億總共這個計畫總共幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3666.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3695.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
都是4年期的計畫所以差不多16億去做然後有一些其他的16億然後你說1年之內你說3年之內而3年之內的話會不會有更多在因為這個數位這方面改變特別快而且資安剛剛林國成委員也提到資安上面來講駭客的知識崛起程度跟進步程度遠高於我們的工程師這點我想你身為IT人才一定知道這個事情但我們如果這3、4年之內我們還要去慢慢去做轉型的時候是不是在這之前資安就已經被突破 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3697.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3714.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這兩件事情我想要分開看待。我們編列到資安上的預算當然不是您剛剛講的這個電子簽章公建相關的預算。資安的預算當然是更多這第一點。那第二點就是剛才所提到說地方政府的額外需求當然我們現在包含跟內政部在收集需求之後明年還會再提額外的公共建設。 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3715.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3739.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我認為部長既然我們中央機關已經普遍支持我們電子簽章的適用然後我們其實這方面來講與其說全部都慢慢弄個三年然後弄個同胞的系統倒不如說我們試著一年如果可以改變的趕快改變如果不行的我們用其他的方式用其他的方式來去做環中處理所以我在這邊部長是不是可以承諾說支持葛如鈞委員的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3740.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3769.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
政府部門的緩衝期以一年為原則如有例外再研議以其他方式來處理呢?您剛所說的其他方式的意思不是立法來處理比如說有些有些有些比較偏遠的那個是那個縣市縣市公所他們如果如果沒辦法那麼快速的能夠符合我們的要求是不是可以說請他們用別的方法用專案來處理我想也可以反過來就是說如果一年就可以ready的那我們盡快提供給委員那其他的部分因為需要用法律來排除還有一個立法程序啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3770.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3798.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
說一定要一年內完成立法程序這個不一定是能夠那麼快達成好,我在這邊因為時間不夠我想特別請我們的我請部長解釋一下在你的修法在你的修法裡面第15條有講到一塊好像是有關國本來是有關滿足安全性的規範安全還是一樣的對,安全性的規範需求不過後來那邊又加一個好像是所謂的技術對接技術對接還有另外一個跨國安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3798.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3804.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
本來是安全要相同以及跨國互惠就是要簽個條約嘛。這兩個都要。就是我們如果認對方的憑證對方政府也要認我們的憑證。那如果以中國來講呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3810.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3832.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
所以這個就是因為我們現在在條約簽訂上面並沒有那麼容易所以我們現在是說跨國互惠是一種但是技術對接也是另外一種技術對接就可以避免掉很多條約法律跟政治相關的問題那既然既然有關治安的話那我想請問一下我們如何我們如何保證說我們未來這個電子簽章的這個應用程式跟系統這部分我們是不是會後用書面提供我們有準備書面 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3832.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3841.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
好,我也想知道說你們是怎麼樣審核、怎麼樣核定這方面的安全性。好,謝謝部長,謝謝林委員。那接下來質詢的是我們召委李坤澤。謝謝何欣淳主席。現在請一下部長。來,部長請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3861.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3883.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
部長好電子簽章法在2001年就公布了是在2002年實施那也已經超過20多年了沒有修訂過那我們看到我們現在由於國內外的資通訊的技術的一個提升那也加上網路的普及那民眾的生活型態也改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3884.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3908.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
再加上政府的施政以及相關企業的他們的這種效率的追求提升所以電子文件跟電子簽章他的使用跟需求也日益的增加也提升他的一個重要性那我們看到這一次電子簽章法的這些相關的修訂他主要是要促進資料的傳輸 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3910.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3926.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
文件往返的效率能夠提升也促進數位金融電子交易的一個發展另外一個很重要的就是讓平台業者便於來進行客戶的確認就是所謂的KYC減少相關的詐騙的一個廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3927.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3944.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那在這邊我要請教一下我們比較細節的問題我們針對修法的內容我們看到這個修正條文的第一條第二項就是有關於司法程序不適用於本法之規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3946.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3965.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這個我認為他定義不是很清楚,定義不明,就是因為施法程序是否包含這個和條解的程序或者是和解契約的相關的一個簽署因為我們在這個說明裡面只說明訴訟的一個類型但是對於程序內容的部分沒有任何的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3967.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3984.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
電子簽章法主要是要促進智慧政府跟數位轉型一個重要的目標依賴大量資本作業的司法院有轉型的需求跟必要我是這樣認為反而修法來幫司法院解套 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3985.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4005.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那排除所有司法程序的適用嗎先請部長說明一下也請司法院張法官等一下來做補充說明來來那個部長你先請說明謝謝趙偉垂詢因我的理解因為我們電子簽章法的基本概念是雙方都同意使用那我就可以來使用電子文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4006.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4019.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
但是在司法程序上面因為它要發生效力它那個發生效力的前提條件必須明確的在法令裡面規定跟我們電子簽章法雙方合一的這個概念有點不同那細節是不是可以請那個司法院委員請張法官補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4021.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4043.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
委員好 那個就這個委員垂詢的這個司法程序的部分大致上就如剛剛唐鳳部長講的一樣就是司法程序有他的特殊性那因為我們司法程序其實本來他的性質就有蠻多像比如說像民事訴訟他是在解決人民失權但是像刑事訴訟他是涉及到人身自由的拘束或有一些刑事的強制處分所以他各個程序的要件都不太同 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4044.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4065.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
．則如果就統一全部一起框進去要適用的話在執行上是會有困難那我們現行也不是沒有在推行任何的電子訴訟那我們像比如說剛才我們司法院報告裡頭有講的這個像憲法訴訟還有推行電子訴訟那他就有這個科技設備傳送辦法那民事訴訟部分他其實也有科技設備傳送辦法我們也都有設置平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4065.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4083.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
� |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4083.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4102.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
一部分的這個程序跟內容其實還是可以再進一步的討論好先謝謝張法官另外一個我請教一下部長我們的第19條有定相關的這個三年條款那是給相關機關費值排除適用本法的一個這個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4105.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4126.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
第19條這個規定排除的機關中央機關含5院有高達2133項地方政府有227項我是認為行政機關應該是作為數位轉型相關政策的一個領頭羊但是修法卻提供各個行政機關超過2000項的排除適用項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4130.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4153.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我們經過20年要電子簽章法要來修訂卻給這樣的一個過度的寬鬆寬鬆的過度期我覺得這個是有爭議為什麼要3年才能完成過度的癥結在哪裡來部長說明一下謝謝趙委員有兩個原因一個是說如果他們需要編列相關的預算的話特別是如果要集中到中央採用公共建設預算來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4155.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4177.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
．則本來就有一個大概一年左右的前期作業期程所以他要實際到大家用得到可能就已經接近兩年了這第一個第二個是說如果要排除適用他還想繼續排除適用他就必須以法律定職就是他要寫在法律裡說某件事情因為什麼原因不能適用電子簽章跟文件那這個立法的期程可能也不是一年能夠完成所以我們主要受到但當然我們會盡量 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4177.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4200.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們自己本身都要檢討因為我們提升政府施政的一個效率以及推動相關數位產業跟整體企業的數位應用的一個發展的過程裡面我們三年行政部門卻是給自己三年的這樣寬鬆的過渡期我們必須要深切的檢討這個部分我們再找時間跟部長來做討論另外就是放寬外國憑證機關的這個申請門檻第15條規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4207.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4221.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
外國憑證機構在現行的規定在安全條件相當跟國際互惠加上許可還有與我國憑證機關所簽發的憑證有同等的效力那我們現在修正草案就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4223.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4243.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4243.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4245.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
國際標準組織美國主管電子箱技術的NIST |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4260.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4287.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
或者是全球的ISO那實際上我們現在大家平常用的像Adobe也有一個電子簽章那當然我們就是我們的簽章現在Adobe也正在審核要不要來認那Adobe的簽章我們現在也有一個認許的這個程序但這個程序並不是傳統上國際好像Adobe去找美國跟我們簽一個條約而是說實際上去簽發這個憑證機構以及它的技術相關的機構像NIST跟我們中間有一個技術上面的對接所以這是以國際標準來進行測驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4289.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4305.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
當然我們台灣現在有自己的這種憑證認證的機構我們有兩家嘛目前是兩家中華電信還有國際網路的認證的股份有限公司那他其實認定還算嚴謹吧因為只有兩家那 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4306.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4322.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4323.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4343.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這個現行的第15條基於國際互惠讓外國機構可以申請申請國家也比較少所以因為國際互惠的門檻也高因為入口宅監理因為都在外國那我們現在修正版基於國際互惠或者是技術對接 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4344.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4357.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那技術對接沒有經理剛才部長也做初步的一個說明因為他概念比較抽象我認為是過度的放鬆會變成入口比較寬、監理比較困難因為都在外國嘛所以門檻放寬、監理困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4361.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4385.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
如何確保許可後的直通安全是一個重要的議題。來部長最後時間那裡簡單說明。好謝謝非常好的這個提醒我們在執法就是配套裡面我們會把技術對接講得更清楚但如果有一些說明需要提到母法的條文或說明欄這個我們接下來主條的時候我們願意來討論。好今天只是詢答那主條的時候再跟部長來做進一步的討論。謝謝謝謝趙委。 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4394.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4411.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
現在請廖先祥委員發言好謝謝各位那一樣麻煩邀請我們唐鳳部長請唐部長好謝謝部長我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4418.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4445.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
數位簽章法一定是支持的啦那直接說當然還有些東西要討論一下那剛剛其實國稱委員有特別請教我們的部長就是數位簽章跟電子簽章他在這個法令上面的定義有一些不一樣嘛那這個都只是一些文字的說明嘛那可能有人看得懂有人看不懂那可不可以舉出一些實例哪一些以我們政府機關來講就可以啦哪些東西是用電子簽章就可以了哪一些需要用到數位簽章 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4447.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4474.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
謝謝委員舉例來說像我們現在簽公文我不管是用行動自然憑證或自然憑證那張卡這個都是比較高層級的數位簽章因為公文需要就是部長本人來親簽嘛但是有一些好比像說會議的簽到啊等等有一些我們看民間的一些做法或一些實務上面我這個委員開會的做法有的就是透過好比像說他們在平板上面簽一簽或怎麼樣就去蒐集這個那如果以民眾對公家部門來說的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4475.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4498.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
一樣啊,我剛剛講的就是說會不會要委員硬要來開會,那他有一個簽到單嘛。我們目前就很少說這個簽到單一定要用數位簽章來做。那譬如說假設我要來申請個什麼,一些急難救助之類的好了。那這些東西需要簽名的話,或者是我要來申請個身分證,我要來申請個呼籍成本的補發,有一些可能需要簽名嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4500.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4507.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
以民眾來說以民眾到政府恰功來講的話哪一種程度需要到電子簽章哪一些需要到數位簽章 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4508.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4531.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
其實很多委員剛剛提到的比較像是他林貴會確認身份但他其實並沒有簽一個像竊結書或一個合約這樣子的東西所以只是確認身份的話倒跟電子簽章法沒有直接的關係我們在講比較是說你簽了一個可能是權利義務的約定啊等等這方面的才會用到電子簽章法那如果需要就是具體的目前的這些實例的話我想我們是不是用書面的方式提供給委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4532.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4553.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
好那之後可能要補充一些實力讓民眾知道說這個法案上路了之後我們到對民眾來說最直接就是說我們可能是不是可以透過網路嗎就是我們減少零貴的使用交通方式然後直接在自己的電腦裡面就可以使用那原則上只要在遠端用電腦使用的是不是原則上就是要用到數位簽章 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4554.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4577.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
就是如果需要就是推定為本人親自簽名或蓋章就是如果本來林貴有這個要求的話對按照新的電子簽章法我們就需要用數位簽章所以反而電子簽章一般電子簽章在使用上面可能就是一般電子簽章可能民間自行約定或像剛剛講開會這種比較不像是簽合約效力不需要那麼強的是好那接下來以民間 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4578.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4605.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
不同的公司之後也可以用數位簽章來簽合約嘛對不對那我確認一下它的系統架構剛剛部長有講它是一個電子簽章附著在合約上面嘛對不對所以這個合約的保存剛剛有講到這個電子簽章會可能會有第三方的認證機關嘛對不對那這個文件需要會保存在第三方的機構嗎還是說它只是附著在文件上面而已那雙方自己保存這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4606.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4622.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
以電子簽章來講 這個保存是在雙方所以並沒有說一定要找一個類似公證人或區塊鏈這樣子的機構在電子簽章這邊目前沒有這樣的規定所以它算是一個系統附加的一個功能它用一個技術然後讓它附著在既有的電子文件上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4622.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4652.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
好那這個既有的文件上面附著了之後那就是有雙方各自保存然後他不能移到別的文件或者他時間錯記不對了他不能用來好像說我把這個簽名截圖了之後拿去簽別的文件當然就不行OK這自然所以將來各個公司之間也不用擔心說雙方各自簽字的文件會不會有第三個公證單位來取得這樣子的文件吧當然當然但如果他們有就是託管或保管的需求的話那當然那是另外一個聲音對另外一個聲音好那接下來剛剛提到三年的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4653.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4678.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那其實因為法令到現在就是在審議當中了嘛那其實各個機關從現在開始因為這個法令原則上是沒有什麼太大的爭議性我認為過的機會會非常的大那應該是從現在開始就要開始在推動了啦那所以很多委員包括我們趙薇講都認為三年的時間太久了那實務上到底三年包括政府採購的程序可能有一些相關的程序啊那我認為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4680.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4705.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我們應該還是有叫你也知道大學生有時候做報告嘛報告期限喔你不管拖到再晚啦很多大學生都是最後最後一個禮拜才寫啦所以我們在法定的定義上面一定要給各個機關一些壓力那當然如果說你在實務上面可能要給寬鬆一點的時候我們因為在做這個系統的時候應該中央機關會有相關的補助嘛對不對當然有些是公共建設就不是補助我們建好給他們用 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4706.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4706.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們這樣有沒有用? |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4706.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4724.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那個機關會有自酬了嗎?如果他的需求並不是就是普遍的需求他自己要開發系統我認為可以從自償率的這部分來要求機關我們可能你認為一年太短我們認為三年太多我們可能可以定個兩年那如果說你在兩年內完成相關要求的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4725.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4748.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我們除了付就完全來負責我們相關的系統建制的一些花費那如果說你超過兩年的話那我們就可能著以部分的補助那可能這個也是另外一種方式除了在法令上面限制之外藉由經費的補助讓各個機關有他的動力來提早使用我們電子簽章法我覺得像透過這種誘因機制的設計我是非常贊同那我們也會請同仁來演你 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4748.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4762.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
是,然後就可以考慮一下那接下來我要請教一下我們這個張法官因為這個目前就是我們司法院有特別提出來建議就是在法令上面就是明定嘛對不對就是排除適用這樣子法令行規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4765.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4781.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
請教一下因為剛剛您有說可能不同的比如說民事、司法不同的程序可能一體使用有困難那可不可以舉一些實例讓我們了解到底在使用上面會遇到怎樣的困難、實例 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4783.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4783.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
議員葛如鈞 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4801.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4822.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4822.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4851.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我不太了解那剛剛講說需要各方面同意那假設有人不同意我們司法判決應該不需要判決不需要這個參與的人同意吧因為他就是一個簽章的一個我在文件上面啦不是他的內容要不要同意對我知道他簽署文件上面嘛他要對方同意這個電子的方式為之那如果像比如說判決的話他透過平台傳送那其實雙方都是同意這樣子用平台傳送的方式是沒有問題的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4852.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4871.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
但是比如說現在如果現在要發G票G票要轉為電子程序的話那他沒有辦法相對人先同意我用電子的方式發G票給他因為我們事前是不會讓他知道我們要去GT的所以可能各類的試用程序在試用的性質上那除了G票之外那有沒有另外的可能性這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4873.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4894.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
這個我們就是院內這個各種訴訟所以應該是指調查方面的隱蔽性不適合用電子簽在形式程序方面會比較多這個問題那其他像我剛剛講說像民事訴訟是解決失權紛爭但他也會有一些保全程序的問題或是說什麼這個部分就各類的訴訟性質他會不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4895.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4915.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
好那我覺得應該要多一些相關的論述好舉一些實例然後然後讓不然有些人會說啊我們數位部是不是比較怕司法院所以司法院說不要就不要那各位為什麼一定要配合好不好又需要有一些實際的例子不是講一些文字敘述實際的例子會遇到什麼狀況才比較能夠說服大眾以上給了一些建議謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4920.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4941.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
謝謝廖委員發言完畢那在陳素月委員發言之前我們先做個說明那本會的臨時提案到10點截止那我們將於何欣淳委員發言完畢之後來進行臨時提案的處理現在請陳素月委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4947.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4949.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
謝謝主席。請主席邀請唐鳳部長。請部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4956.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4978.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
部長早安。我們知道目前有關詐騙集團的猖獗跟詐騙案件的一個氾濫已經是基層民怨的很大的民怨之一所以在上次總質詢相信最近很多委員都是關心這個議題就是如何打詐防詐所以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4979.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5003.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這個院會總諮詢之後那部長也釋出說就是要來進行這個電子簽章法的一個修法希望從源頭來管制來打詐所以目前我們知道這個電子簽章法已經20幾年沒有修正了就是在90年公佈實施之後到今天應該是第一次來修正那可不可以請部長簡單說明一下修正的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5004.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5019.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
好 謝謝委員委員所提到的這個部分其實像我們數位產業署透過智慧防詐相關的技術每天都掃描上萬則這種廣告那也會及時通知平台但是我們觀察到說即使平台收到了真的就都下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5020.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5049.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這個詐騙者他因為目前的這個身份認證KYC的程序並不是很完備所以他馬上再創一個帳號又再上同樣的廣告變成是說確實下架率越來越高沒有錯但大家沒事都還是看到仿冒名人的這種廣告那當然實際點下去那個網址常常我們就已經跟165合作那個網址其實已經連不到了但是光是看到這些頭像大家感受還是很不好所以主要這次是解決這個問題就是未來除非說他真的跟這個名人同名同姓 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5049.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5064.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5064.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5082.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
是,其實像本席平常在看臉書的時候也常常會看到很多冒用名人的這種網站包括 張忠謀、吳淡如還有陳文倩、曹新誠等等其實這個我們在看的時候我覺得已經是不勝美舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5083.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5097.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
所以真的是非常的氾濫所以就是說之後如果說電子簽章法我們修正案通過之後好像我目前就是圖卡上面這一類似的這種就確實可以受到管制是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5098.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5123.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
是的 這個也搭配我們數位產業署最近已經跟經濟部提出由數位產業署接下來會擔任我們的線上廣告平台網路廣告平台的目的事業主管機關那只要是主管機關我們就有一些相關的政策工具那再配上電子簽章法的修法我們有信心這個部分它的再販率就會降低當然如果要再進一步降低包含境外平台落地等等這個我們是跟內政部配合在內政部的打詐的專法來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5125.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5153.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
是,那就是部長有提到就是說進行這個電子簽章法希望就是來從源頭管制來打詐嘛所以這樣子的訊息釋出之後當然也很多關心的民眾就是會開始討論因為有的人根本不知道什麼是電子簽章法那未來實施之後的一些問題所以包括説未來這個電子簽章法就本席所了解也是要透過申請核發的嘛那目前我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5156.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5177.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我們目前有規劃有幾家首先我們如果是使用行動自然憑證或自然憑證或工商憑證這個不是民間的公司來合法的這個是我們自己政府那我們一開始跟大的平台討論會包含這個太陽在內所以並不會說一定要找民間公司來合法那當然目前的簽證是達到數位簽證這種比較高等級的 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5181.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5202.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
就是我們的台灣這個網路認證身份認證的一個公司那TWCA那以及我們的中華電目前大概有這兩家是好那另外就是說其實很多民眾也在關心的就是很多年輕人喜歡買那個音樂會的票透過網路購票可是通常這個主辦單位一開始開賣就 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5204.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5234.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
就馬上票就賣光了。事實上在其他的平台就看到很多黃牛票在賣。所以未來我們這個電子簽章法修正之後就是說很多年輕人在關心在這個遏止黃牛票上會不會有效果。對,這個部分其實我們跟文化部之前有討論這部分的應用的方式。那依我所知就是目前也有一些售票平台是有做所謂的身份驗證或實名認證但是我相信電子簽章法通過之後會提高這個強度提高非常多。 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5234.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5240.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
是可以提高所以還是沒有辦法百分之百去遏止黃牛票 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5241.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5269.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
應該是這是兩件事啦就是說第一個是說如果他是有實名認證而且需要用數位簽章那當然就會大幅墊高黃牛帶別人購票的成本因為以前他只要有這個人的個資就可以帶他購票但現在呢他必須要有這個人的自然憑證或行動自然憑證這個就成本非常非常高所以這部分應該可以有效的來緩解那當然如果這個平台本身本來就沒有做類似這樣實名認證的話那當然電子簽章法修正草案就算通過我們不能逼著這些平台去做這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5270.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5291.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我瞭解了那因為事實上很多民眾都是關心跟他們生活上息息相關的事物啦所以這個問題就是很多年輕人看到這個他們就是會去詢問想要瞭解這個部分對未來他們就是在這個觀賞因為會或者是演唱會上會不會有些幫助我們會持續積極跟文化部討論這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5293.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5307.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
另外就是說還有幾個問題是包括說這個民眾如果說把他的電子簽章無意中被工作詐騙使用之後那之後他這個會被管制還是說會有受到什麼樣的處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5309.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5325.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
不過因為我們是等於跟硬件章本人親簽等等是一樣的效力所以說你無意中簽名然後蓋了硬件章這個有一點不確定要怎麼無意中做這件事情所以這個會有涉及到民法的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5325.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5344.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這個就是類似你簽了一個合約一樣簽了一個契約一樣他是有法律效力的那但是當然就是說如果他的數位簽章他真的失竊還是怎麼樣那也許因為我們推定並不是說他不能舉證來反駁嗎那在這個時候舉證責任就要到那個被報呃聲稱自己被冒用的人身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5346.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5372.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我想我列了幾個問題那因為有的問題剛剛有委員都有詢問過了對3有回答過了對4有回答過了那當然我們也是部長這樣子就是說希望推動電子簽章法趕快修正通過可是我覺得說這我們也不能說完全就是寄望在這個法案通過之後讓民眾好像就期待非常的高我們應該就是真的要有那個功效怎樣去落實這個很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5373.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5400.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
特別是境外還沒有落地的平台電子簽章法本身並沒有要求這些廣告平台一定得落地像TikTok那這一部分可能就要在內政部目前研擬中的打詐的專法裡面我們會來幫忙處理是好那就是說其實除了詐騙之外就是還有假訊息的一個處理也是很多民眾關注的那我們看到就是說我們都知道抖音對國家那個自通安全的危害非常的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5400.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5424.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那我們也看到最近美國眾議院他也有通過了這個T-talk的這個禁令法案 那我們台灣沒有辦法禁嗎?首先先跟委員報告就是即使他沒有在台灣落地但是我們目前就已經按照兒少法好比方說中小學的校園等等這個部分都已經做了限制這些危害產品所以即使是還沒有落地有些措施我們可以先做這第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5425.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5447.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
第二點是說剛剛提到的內政部研理中的答詢專法裡面有一個專門的一個規定就是說這些一定規模的境外網路廣告平台未來它就必須要落地了這第二點那第三點就是說我們在內容跟載具跟資安這些部分呢我們定義了這個危害產品這個定義是放在資通安全法那資通安全法目前是已經在行政院進行審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5450.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5470.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我們知道在春節前Ttalk新加坡總部的負責主管有率團來台訪問對,是我們約他來談約他來談是不是可以就這部分請部長簡單一下就是說我們在這次的會談上未來會有什麼樣的一個作為來對這個假訊息有效的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5476.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5503.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
對一方面當然我們是要讓就是大家也不只是TikTok也包含Google Line、Facebook等等都了解到我們接下來就會是網路廣告平台的主管機關這第一點那第二點在這個機關的這個權責底下有很多像剛剛提到兒少法或者是其他線上的明顯的危害有些通知取下等等的這些義務那這些義務他不能因為他是沒有落地他就不遵循這個是第二點那第三點當然我們目前也在資安法裡面在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5504.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5519.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
進外的敵對勢力實質控制到這家公司列為危害產品的部分那這部分當然昨天在立院也有委員追詢那這部分我想這個期程就會跟資通安全法的期程就會跟電子簽章法可能不太一樣資安法我們會在院裡繼續審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5521.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5523.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
陳委員發言完畢。現在請何欣崇委員發言。何欣崇委員發言完畢之後我們禁止臨時提案的處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5549.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5551.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
好,謝謝主席,我們坤澤趙偉,我們請唐鳳部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5560.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5583.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
委員好部長好我想今天很多委員都在關心這個優先法案這個電子簽章法那我個人認為那個治安法也非常重要所以我還是期待行政院趕快把治安法趕快送出來我們全力配合是那我現在講在治安法還沒送出來之前我們電子簽章法跟很多委員有關心我關心的點有一點點不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5585.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5604.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
因為呢城鄉有數位落差政府機關也有數位落差剛剛有提到很多偏鄉的甚至比較鄉鎮市區公所的他們可能的這個資訊系統會有落差那更需要中央或者是呢大家的支持那他才能夠的去像你講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5605.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5629.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
接上我們電子簽章法所要求的系統更新以目前我們還沒修法之前適用的單位你看被排除了剛剛大家都在講2000多個嘛對不對那你在你其中的這個修法版本裡面有一條說3年內給他們一個時間你可以回答其他的委員但是我還是比較期待的是那我們數位發展部 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5631.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5647.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
針對這個2000多個排除適用的這些行政單位我們自己有沒有自己的騎乘怎麼去幫忙他們一方面是因為我們有預計說今年應該會通過電子簽章法很謝謝委員支持所以我們在去年就已經編列了相關的公共建設回答其他委員說編列了3、4億4支都是3、4億 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5655.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5678.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
對,都是4年,那但裡面有一些像數位的核銷等等應該年底就已經可以看到初步的成果那其他部分是不是我們請訴參數所以部長來來來我再請教一下我的意思是說好你有編預算了那表示你有盤點了那你有盤點的情況之下這2000個現在目前是公告排除適用電子簽章法這2000多個你未來在你數位發展部的這個期程裡面好吧你跟我講 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5679.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5685.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
編4年那這4年你要從2000多個怎麼降低到1500怎麼降低到500怎麼降低到 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5687.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5708.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我覺得這個是你要跟我們講這個期程讓大家可以知道說好在這個法案通過了之後那預算也編了之後那你們要找地方政府來協商來開會了之後那有哪些部會有哪些機關是可以在我們這個本法修正之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5709.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5728.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
可以快速一年就可以試用所以我的意思是說你要告訴我因為2000多個剛剛司法院就說他不行嘛對不對那還有哪些部會哪些機關是說不行的這個盤點出來了沒有接下來一年是不是已經有部會說他暫時辦不到意思是這樣子是啊那你要盤點啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5731.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5747.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
兩千多個裡面我們舉如果彰化縣政府在九十年九十一年四月他排除了公告以他公告什麼內容是要排除的呢比如說他是要做一些政府書類文件的申請比如說租文化局各場地的申請書 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5748.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5753.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
因為現在DQ3這個都很簡單的,所以這種的不用什麼錢,他就這樣不用排除。另外設立短期補習班的立案申請書,這也很簡單的。所以我現在就在問你喔,你現在針對這個是有具體的個案告訴我,那我就問你,那你盤點了之後,來剛剛部長的那個問題,一年之內沒有辦法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5773.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5782.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
一年內的一年內的部分呢因為剛剛其實因為剛剛你講的都簡單的嘛是是簡單的簡單的話那根本不用一年啊甚至可能10天就好了部長剛才說有兩類啦一個是要公建 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5787.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5799.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所屬部會要去申請公件申請公件前期前置作業的彌補那現在有哪些部會已經跟你講說他一年內來不及OK那些他有些要做設備的可不可以所以你要買嗎我現在幫你問嘛有我們這邊有列表 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5804.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5807.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那個農委會的漁業署他說那個外國漁民在海淀沒電子簽章系統啊這種的他主要都用紙本啊這種的他就要去找去準備另外存那個金融監督管理委員會的政企局 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5820.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5833.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
他說他公發股票、股物處理準則第11條他規定說這要有留存硬件而且要書面為之這種他要修法規所以兩大類一個要編遺申、一個要修法規所以我們去行政院討論的是三檔的繁重、比較速時當然人快的﹖很多委員都認為3年太久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5841.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5846.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
但是有人現在在這個行政程序上面我們現在說的話就是要改進我們的行政程序改善我們的行政效率啊那你現在又告訴我因為行政程序這樣子所以呢我們效率這麼慢需要3年其實可以改的譬如說申請書類的Q3另外跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5863.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5891.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
委員說當你這3年過的時候我們所有的這個數位技術又已經更新更新又更新了可能我們行政部門的電子這個系統也趕不上了。會不會很快會出那個凱電點點簽那種的服務?如果說申請書類就可以了。我們是不是盤點出來分門別類你剛剛講的很簡單的那你給我們期程簡單的有哪些哪些行政單位告訴我可能10天一個月之內他就可以改。 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5892.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5915.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
有的人認為需要半年有的人認為一年他也沒辦法做到像你剛剛講的農業部或者是政經管會政經局我的意思你盤點出來盤點的結果給我一個書面報告好不好因為時間的關係我是希望能夠有行政效率數位化的最終目標就要提升我們的行政效率來第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5918.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5946.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
請部長回答我上個禮拜上次也問你那個Meta的大蕩機全球大蕩機那現在已經過了一週了原因到底出在哪裡?部長知道嗎?是因為理解就是它影響到了並不只是Meta的傾向就是這一波的這個攻擊也影響到用類似的網路所以是被攻擊嗎?還是?它的這個底層的這個網路很多其他大的網站也同時受到影響只是Meta受到影響比較嚴重是那請問一下那問題是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5948.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5970.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我們目前觀察到當然有一些駭客組織他自己出來說是他做的但這部分還沒有證實那我們政府待會有可能跟Meta那邊去了解到說到底問題出在哪裡嗎我覺得這是一個資訊公開的一個必須要跟國人交代因為我們國家的國人民用這個Meta的相關的這個社群平台的太多太多人了 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5970.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5984.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
甚至賴以為生的也有很多人那問題到底出在哪裡我覺得這是一個資訊公開透明的一個必要性那到目前為止我跟你講沒有一個人可以問得清楚到底這個Meta的全球大當機到底是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5986.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6005.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我理解委員的意思。那當然一方面我們請庶產署持續要求更多的這種事件處理的透明性。那二方面我們也盡快把那個目的世界主管機關趕快移到我們這邊。我們有持續去提醒他們。我們沒有任何的一個正常管道可以跟要求他們怎麼樣可以請他們說明嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6008.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6017.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
因為目前以我們還不是努力社會主管機關而且打詐專法也還沒有通過的情況下我們能夠用的法律﹚不要講目前嘛部長大家對你期許那麼高對數位發展部成立之來大家期待那麼高你不能跟我說現在我丟一個問題你跟我說這不是你的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6026.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6049.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我們會盡快解決這個問題啊我們已經在進行行政程序對Meta旗下的各個平台我們沒有一個正常的管道或者是你個人或者是我們單位裡面有誰可以有一個溝通的管道瞭解的管道能夠讓這樣子的資訊公開透明以安民心我的意思是這樣子因為使用物資太多了第一時間就有這樣子傳達那我想委員剛剛你直接傳達嘛沒有得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6053.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6082.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
委員剛剛也提醒說新版的這個自通安全法我們在行政院審議那裡面就比較有這種關於重大事件相關的那我們也很希望能夠盡快來討論我多一點點時間我為什麼問到這個問題是在於我們現在網路上不僅僅是個人會去開設帳戶帳號還有很多的行政機關包括學校像這一個曾經在媒體披露台南的某個國小被入侵他的粉磚被 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6085.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6101.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
被盜用然後呢又去發的是完全對學校來講是不可能發生的色情騙那像這個東西徐副校通報我所知這個是屬於篡改有通報那是不是請那個資安署所以有通報有通報也有調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6105.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6122.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
市長請說明簡單說明我這邊簡單說明一下因為他是涉及主要是公部門的那個帳號是屬於公部門的然後所以他如果被害侵的話是屬於我們治安事件所以他這個學校原則上他也有通報地方教育局有通報?學校有通報?地方教育局有通報? |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6124.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6152.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
對,主要是司法機關那個學校就會通報然後就一路資訊就會到這邊我為什麼會提到這個你看一個學校的粉專他會被盜用那政府機關我們現在包括行政院教育部各部會都有社群平台帳號粉專他們如果被盜用那我們怎麼面對跟處理那比如說蔡英文總統賴清德總統當選人他如果他的個人粉專被盜用的情況之下那我們又如何因應這個必須要建立一個SOP喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6153.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6162.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我覺得這個有可能甚至會涉及到國安問題的好,謝謝何委員發言完畢現在我們要處理臨時提案處理臨時提案之前先向委員會說明我們等一下臨時提案處理完畢在林郡縣委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6180.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6192.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘請各黨團助理告知其他委員現在處理臨時提案本日既有一案請議事人員宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6196.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6221.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
臨時提案一、建請述發部應建立政府機關使用社群平台帳號之使用指引社群帳號被入侵後知通安全通報及此應對措施及後續調查制度同時應建立各政府單位社群平台帳號名單於一個月內完成相關作為並提出書面報告與交通委員會提案人委員何新泉等宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6223.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6249.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
好,現在先請行政部門說明。好,謝謝。我想我們建立這個資通安全的通報機制,這個責務龐大也已經有這個機制。當然我們目前的想法是說,因為目前各個機關,包含剛剛講地方政府的局處等等,它本來就已經有建立這方面的帳號名單。但是這邊看起來這個文字是說要變成改由數位部來進行這個名單的建立跟維護。 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6250.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6266.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那我們想說是不是有可能從自通安全通報措施應對措施後面就刪除一直到帳號名單到逗號那改成等作業規劃就是社群帳號被入侵後自通安全通報機制及應對措施等作業規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6267.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6293.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
一個月之內提出書面報告因為這個相關作為是各個目的世界主管機關以及地方的局處他已經有的所以我們可以一個月之內就已經有的提出書面報告但是牽涉到管轄權轉移就是說這個教育部的文化部的等等他下屬的機構都要由我們來管他們的社群帳號可能比較不妥好請何委員謝謝昭薇我想這個部長跟相關人員可能誤解我的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6295.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6315.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這個其實我要講的是一個SOP跟制度那這個跟中央地方都同時要協力來完成這第一點第二個我為什麼會講到這個現在呢在這個社群的這個這個粉專類似這樣子的一個網頁被盜用那盜用了之後呢他有可能被 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6316.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6335.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6336.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6361.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
專業粉專被盜用怎麼辦被盜用再發了一個什麼樣的一個危及國安的一個訊息讓擾亂民心比如說上次上次那個國會美國國會議長來的時候開課就可以馬上在7-11甚至在那個台鐵的那個螢幕系統裡面他就可以開進去然後散播不時的謠言跟這個一些擾亂民心的一些文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6361.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6369.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那我的意思是說那如果在這個網路上的這個本尊上面比如說賴清德他被害了他被盜用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6370.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6397.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
他散播的不是違反這個怎麼講,擾亂民心或違反了一些他該有的正當言論的時候那我們該怎麼第一個我們該如何因應嘛第二個那這個資安通報之後的後續的一個作為又該是什麼嘛對不對我覺得這是重要的事情很重要的事情好那針對文字修訂的內容請問委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6400.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6416.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那要如何修正我建議是不是還是按照我的這一個版本那如果你說你沒有辦法建立各政府單位那你可以協同改一些文字中央協同地方政府 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6417.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6438.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那我們可不可以把主詞換一下就變成同時各政府單位應建立社群平台帳號名單然後我們於一個月之內把那個完成相當作為病改成這個應該是說你們數位發展部應協助各政府單位建立好不好可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6439.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6453.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
同時數位發展部應協助各政府單位建立社群平台帳號名單於一個月內提出書面報告。數位部趕快把文字確定然後請何委員、郭牧趕快處理。我們馬上處理。馬上處理,來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6468.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6474.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
文字修訂後請團部長再說明一次再念一次確定文字內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6476.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6503.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那就跟河友園的一直到倒數第三行都一樣就是集後續調查制度然後從倒數第三行開始喔後續調查制度到號同時數位部應協助各政府單位建立然後後面都一樣社群平台賬號名單於一個月內提出書面報告好有沒有意見OK可以好沒有意見的話修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6506.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6513.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
臨時提案處理完畢。如有委員對上述提案補簽,列入記錄並刊登公報。現在繼續請徐富奎委員發言。謝謝主席。有請唐部長。請部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6534.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6561.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
部長早安部長我想今天討論的電子簽章法剛剛我們前幾位委員大家大致上都表達支持的態度但是本席針對這個速報部一直提說在年底之前要審議完成但是相關的人力部分想要就教一下部長那未來這個案子上路之後我們對於這個管理系統需要多少的人力才足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6562.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6581.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這非常好的問題謝謝委員關心我們確實就是之前因為還不是網路廣告平台業的主管機關那接下來接下這個確實是會有不少的工作那以我所知目前庶城署已經在規劃會向人事行政總署提出請增人力的這個需求目前應該是可以控制在20人以內就可以把它完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6582.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6604.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
但是因為目前我們看到蘇衛部的人員缺額有高達58名將近10%那從這個數據上顯示我們的流動率是不是很高還是有什麼樣的問題不是有一些他是從別的機關要調過來但目前還在人事凍結期所以在現在去做這個snapshot不一定很準要520之後那些人過來再重新登記一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6605.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6632.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
對,因為現在大家對關心數位部的部分除了這個電子簽章之外還有打詐的部分那尤其打詐的人力以我們目前掌握的狀況只有18人那看起來是讓人家很憂心那對於這個打詐的部分的人力的部分我們怎麼樣來爭取相關的預算還是爭取相關的預算剛才有提到就數傳署這一次的請證案裡面我想絕大部分就會放在包含線上網路廣告平台以內 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6633.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6657.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
的防詐那以及當然我們數位經濟相關產業有很多別的相關產業像第三方支付阿等等我想都可以一次來進行補充。對阿因為現在大家對這個數法部都很有興趣阿齁除了你們的辦公廳之外大家都是看到一些比較負面的狀況那我想說我們應該是要更積極的來跟認識總署來協調這些事情這部分我們有需要我們都會群來協助阿齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6658.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6683.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那另外針對人才部分那其實現在最重要的就是薪資的問題那之前考試院的秘書長在詢答過程裡面你有認同我們數位部的約聘的薪資跟民間的落差很大那請教部長考試院所講的落差太大是指特別資安人員他在民間能夠領的薪水跟我們來這邊之後約聘所能夠這個給他的薪水我們這邊少相當多 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6683.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6705.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
對那怎麼去處理這個事情當然一部分考試院也很謝謝就是考試院跟我們資安署有來一起規劃資安的考試的類科那這個是已經上路的那未來再通過這個績效獎金啊增資加級啊等等的這些方式去盡可能的讓他雖然不可能說百分之百跟上業界但至少那個差距不要那麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6706.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6722.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
對啦因為我們從104人力銀行的資料來看目前資安工程師的平均月薪是6.2萬那薪資中位數是5.7萬甚至公股銀行對於資安人力的薪水就開到7萬了啦那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6722.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6746.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
部長,我們怎麼樣從這些民間機構能夠搶到好的資安人才?你有什麼樣的看法嗎?謝謝委員一方面當然我們透過像資安院就是我們國家資產安全研究院那他因為是屬於行政法人是用牢籍法所以他的敘心的range可以變成跟民間稍微比較接近那這是技術人才的部分不過在行政人才也具有資安相關的證照部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6746.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6767.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我們有一個策略就是我們盡量讓體制裏面目前還不是資訊或資安相關的直系的朋友們透過取得相關的證招跟訓練來轉這個直系那目前以我所知就是上千民工物同仁對這個也都很有興趣對這部分可能人力部分還是要加緊腳步了那我另外針對抖音部分要請教一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6768.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6790.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
因為先美國要禁用抖音那國科會的主委認為訴法部要針對抖音管理要提出建議但是我們又有提到說要交給行政院綜合考量那這部分您的看法是?其實美國在眾議院的這個法案他提到很重要的概念就是說境外敵對勢力是不是實質控制這個危害產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6791.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6808.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
因為這個實質控制跟他註冊在哪裡不一定有絕對的關係跟他的股東結構也不一定有絕對的關係主要還是有沒有市政來顯示說就是這個情資顯示說他事實上是有實質的控制權那我們也把這個概念放在我們新版的已經送到行政院的自然管理法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6809.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6822.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
關於危害產品的定義這邊我們有特別列出說境外敵對勢力就是反滲透法定義的這個滲透來源有實質控制的話就算成危害產品所以在定義上面這一點在新的自然法裡面跟美國是類似的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6824.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6852.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
市長,我們之前是不是有針對媒體回應這部分跟TikTok這邊的總部建立直接的一個溝通管道?我們有約他來說像危害訊息啊特別像當時中選會關心的那一些對,他必須要立刻處理因為依我們在鄉下地方看到確實哇這個老人家啊這些使用抖音的狀況非常非常的嚴重甚至很多人都憂心啊這是真的是一個國安的問題啦那我們怎麼樣面對這樣的一個治安在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6853.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6877.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
到底的一個危害性的部分有沒有什麼樣的一個自然修法的一個必要性或是部長有沒有做一個更完整的一個管理的一個機制確實我想我們明確定義這個境外敵對實力實質控制產品為危害產品這個就是不是只是針對TikTok這一家公司或這個TikTok這個產品而是說所有的類似這樣子的危害產品我們必須要有一個歧義的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6878.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6901.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6902.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6920.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
好,不然這部分還是要請我們也要多注意啦那最後針對我們AI的一個產業部分那因為國科會主委有提到這個人工智慧的草案在年底提出那數位部在這個角色裡面怎麼樣有什麼呈現什麼樣的一個看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6922.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6949.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我想我們跟國科會是非常緊密合作我本身也是國科會的成員那之前國科會有協助行政院做一個行政部門、公部門怎麼樣運用生成式AI的一個指引裡面提到包含資安、這個地端部署等等只要是牽涉到這些實際應用面的那我們都會去做這個配套的指引或者是示範這第一點那第二點就是AI哪一些是比較值得信任的準確性比較沒有問題的哪一些是比較不值得信任的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6949.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6956.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6957.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6979.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
因為我們現在臺灣有很多的面相都需要AI的幫忙那尤其本期我們在屏東的選區齁包含我們的遠距醫療還有很多農業的發展甚至養殖醫院都為了都需要AI科技產業來做一個提升那這部分也要請數位部特別是數位產業所能夠提供相關的AI科技來讓我們的產業來做升級然後讓我們的臺灣齁這個產業更有競爭力那這部分要請部長這邊也要多幫忙啦好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6986.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6987.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
徐委員發言完畢,現在請林俊憲委員發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7011.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7031.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
委員好部長好部長你現在說政府要來推動電子簽章所以你要先修電子簽章法電子簽章法其實是民國91年就開始實施了啦實施到現在20幾年了啦但是因為科技啦整個大環境的進步我也同意認為確實應該要來修法了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7033.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7038.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
但是電子簽章法如果是20幾年前這個法律就通過了那麼20幾年來請問部長你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7042.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7066.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
電子簽章目前的使用人數有多少?目前我們如果是以像自然憑證再加上行動自然憑證來看的話目前大概人口的可能六分之一、五分之一左右那是自然憑證那不是你的電子簽章那個就是電子簽章那只是其中一種你要推的不是這種嘛 對不對如果您說是民間自行約定的電子簽章那目前素材署是在做調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7067.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7082.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
你們沒有數字啦。其實過去其實有電子簽章有這個法律但其實根本沒有在推啦。我們就以自然能力憑證來講啦。自然能力憑證推到現在啊。大概也才900萬人啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7084.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7112.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
大概不到人口的一半那電子的自然冷凭證大概推了兩年多只有35萬人所以對這個電子的東西一般民眾可能還不是很熟悉所以如果現在要來使用電子簽章那很多人就問電子簽章是什麼那我要去哪裡了解那我有問題要問誰我就去我們速發部的網站看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7113.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7115.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
電子簽章是哪個那個那個數財數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7134.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7153.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
告訴我們電子簽章法規專區啦那民眾不是要看這個啦誰看都懂啦誰要看你法律你們現在是在推廣教育的階段所以你們也沒有Q&A有沒有舉例子有沒有一些到底電子簽章是什麼的一個解釋那你設這個沒有一個專區啊你設這個幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7159.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7184.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
這個委員我們這個你提醒很好就是讓民眾更加的了解接近電子簽章那我們因為這包括在法規制定的過程中民眾的一些意見我們回去會把網站的部分做充實對啦你網站要有互動或者是說你要提供基本的一些問題Q&A或者舉一個實例這樣應用的實例嘛你裡面寫全部都是法規命令我寫給你們看民眾沒有人要看這個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7184.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7185.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那另外喔就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7201.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7226.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我們確實也需要一個提供民眾可以去檢核電子簽章真偽的問題因為現在詐騙那麼嚴重很多民眾對這個都存疑你現在推這個時候正是大家民意對於台灣詐騙極度就對這種極度不信任那你在推電子簽章一定要有一個讓民眾可以去檢核到底這是真的假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7228.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7251.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
當然就是除了簽章以外還有驗章那驗章也必須跟這些大型平台來合作因為如果民眾要一個一個去下載廣告去驗章不如說YouTube或者Meta一定要驗章好沒有錯齁好那你剛結論一個大型平台嘛然後現在數位平台上面的廣告嘛是不是確定由數位部來主管由我們理解經濟部已經原則同意了現在是在進行相關的預告程序好 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7253.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7278.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
去年我們有修法啦但我們去年修法是只有針對平台上面的投資廣告當時是說給金管會管嘛對不對因為我最近看到謝金葛很火大啦謝金葛寫篇文章痛罵政府啦所以他每次報案啦因為很多人都假借他的名義在講炒股票的事情嘛那他報案也沒有用啊他說政府在哪裡啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7278.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7289.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那這個案子啊,如果按照目前來講的話是金管﹑好像是金管會管吧?對,是的,但是我們作為﹑那金管怎麼會管呢?作為電子簽章法主管機關這件事情就是冒名名人的這件事情我們是絕對責無旁貸 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7291.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7314.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
對應該是集中到數法部來管嘛你們之前就是說發生這個詐騙廣告那就看他的主管機關是不是丟給他丟給經濟部丟給內政部丟給教育部丟給衛福部那實際上如果這樣照你們之前的分配工作啊你數法部只管遊戲只管也只管電商垃圾郵件 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7315.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7343.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
他們其他的主管單位業務主管單位我認為他們對於這種網路平台上的管理啊能量和能力啊一定不夠委員提的這張表就是NCC在資安匯報裡面負責網路犯罪偵訪的內容的這張表我對這張表我很不滿啊我們現在已經主動跟NCC在因為部長你有講過我們現在主動要改這張表對你有講過你有說世衛平台的廣告就歸我世衛報部管嘛對不對至少要寫在這上面當然所以像 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7344.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7360.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
像那個金管衛主委他就有回答啦因為人家問他像謝金口這種詐騙廣告怎麼處理嘛但是蘇阿布的我看金管衛主委只講到Meta從6月啊就可以推動實名制廣告是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7361.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7361.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
議員葛 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7381.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7397.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
但是呢我看到金管委的黃主委只講到Meta但其他還有Youtube啊還有Google啊對還有IG啊還有抖音啊小紅書啊是那OTT也要廣告啊沒錯沒錯Podcast也要廣告啊那他們到底幾月的時候可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7397.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7398.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我們會跟內政部在新的房價轉法來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7424.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7432.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
好,那謝金口先生這麼火大、他這麼生氣,那你說不能處理嗎?我們就是希望盡快通過、散布通過電子簽章法讓我們有去跟大型平台要求的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7433.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7455.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那你要不要跟他解釋說拜託請你有耐心等到6月因為他說6月才能推實名制廣告我們當然會盡快來加速這個期程那像您剛剛提到YouTube其實YouTube是宣稱他有做實名認證但是他的這個驗章不是非常的精確所以他到現在還是有跟他名字差一個字的這個就是啦我們沒有法律有沒有法律跟不上這個腳步啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7457.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7484.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
跟不上這個大文件的變化那就先要求業者至少要自律嘛自律才有他利我們再用法律去要求他嘛那台灣現在出現一個很大的麻煩啦就是網路詐騙網路上一大堆詐騙的東西但現在第一個管理網路上這些東西啊沒有法律啊那也沒有主管機關那現在部長說應該要統規蘇華部管那至少我們現在知道蘇華部要負起責任但現在沒有法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7486.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7502.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那這個就是未來那個打架鑽法裡面會特別賦予我覺得這個打架鑽法這個應該要盡快推出來完全同意這樣你才可以啊我們來要求這些網路廣告平台因為我們的法律來予以規範好不好希望這個部分我們應該要加緊腳步好嗎好謝謝部長林委員發言完畢區委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7516.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7521.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
主委員要發言嗎?好,謝謝主委員。休息十分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7532.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7556.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7558.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7574.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7575.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7581.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
議員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查． |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7604.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7626.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7632.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7642.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人發言委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7648.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7665.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人發言委員葛如鈞等22人發言委員葛如鈞等22人發言委員葛如鈞等22人發言委員葛如鈞等22人發言委員葛如鈞等22人發言委員葛如鈞等22人發言委員葛如鈞等22人發言委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7673.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7691.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案： |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7699.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7699.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
議員葛如鈞,請休息一會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7715.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7744.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7744.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7751.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案．則不予審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案．則不予審查委員葛如鈞等22人 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7761.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7781.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7784.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7806.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7808.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7823.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7824.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7838.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人發言委員葛如鈞等22人發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7846.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7864.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7878.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7903.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：三、審查委員葛如鈞等22 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7912.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7926.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
議員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案．則不予審查行政院函．等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案．則不予審查委員葛如鈞等22年一次會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7931.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7935.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7957.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7975.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
議員葛如鈞等23月18日、20日二天一次會議議員葛如鈞等23月18日、20日二天一次會議議員葛如鈞等23月18日、20日二天一次會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7981.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7995.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
對,剛剛慶慶說九百萬人我剛剛是說人口五分之一因為這個是其實是有在用的絕大部分人用完三年過了他也沒有在用就不補發了18歲根本不可能不到18歲不可能拿 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8002.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8016.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
對,但是如果有人要拿這個主席,你覺得我們要就是說共起還是鎖定自然憑證?一定要有?還是說我們就直接跳行動選舉的?反正是自己用的?對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8017.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8018.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
對阿對阿對阿對阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8034.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8046.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
對阿,好阿,那我覺得我們,如果委員以後再要我從這個做做,如果沒有,我們現在就用白抖,就是白抖是國際交通阿,然後實際的交通阿,我們可以裝交通阿,我們可以裝交通阿,我們可以裝交通 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8056.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8058.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8095.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8096.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8134.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8134.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
二、審查委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8217.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8218.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
繼續開會。現在請邱若驊委員發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8233.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8236.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
謝謝主席有請部長請部長部長好我們今天看到電子簽章修正草案那修法的重點是為了提升智慧政府對電子文件還有電子簽章的應用可是一般企業然後還有個人都常常常常會比較難理解到什麼樣的產品還有什麼樣的服務適合作為電子簽章使用加上政府疏於防範自然威脅因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8262.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8284.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
通常我們會看到各自外線還有駭客公警的事件頻傳讓人沒有辦法放心影響到電子簽章的推廣那我想請問部長電子簽章法需要結合各自法還有資通安全管理法的修法而且需要強化網路基礎建設才比較完善那資通安全法是數位發展部的法案是已經送到行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8285.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8312.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那昨天也有委員就是詢問院長那他沒有明確的答覆那可否請部長就是這邊要問部長就是數位發展部的推動時程瞭解到的時程謝謝委員垂詢我們電子簽章法就是為了要解決像委員剛剛提到的本來是用比較弱的身份認證方式那各自外泄之後可能就會被冒名啊等等但是數位簽章大概就比較沒有這個問題因為一定要他本人才能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8312.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8334.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
每次來進行簽章的動作所以它本身就是對自然有幫助這第一個那第二個委員剛剛垂詢到自動安全管理法的期程我們其實在送院以前我們已經跟各個相關的機關等等已經有開過協調會議基本上已經把他們的考量都納入進去所以我相信在行政院協調之下應該我們就盡力來配合盡快送到大院 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8335.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8360.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
數法部在去年推動這項法案的時候也聽到各界不同的聲音後來是如何做會診的?其實有一個很重要的是關於我們調度就是重大事件調度的這個權限當然地方政府會希望我們更容易讓他們了解到說會不會說我們定義重大事件整年都是重大事件結果他們的緣額就等於被我們用掉了所以我們這個已經做了很多的澄清就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8360.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8367.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
好比像選舉章案等等他有一個固定的時間是在那段時間裡面就近來做調動不會變成好像去任意調派這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8370.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8391.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那未來電子簽章法修法通過之後還要跟國際借軌那部長您之前也有提到過那有提到在國際應用方面未來只要有雙方的憑證技術互通安全條件相當那我國法院即可承認電子文件的效力那其他國家對本國對我國的電子效力的承認目前的狀態是 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8392.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8420.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
好比像說像我是立陶宛的這個所謂電子居民就是他也有發一張這個數位憑證給我我可以用立陶宛所認的那個簽章來簽章包含在那邊跨國開戶啊等等那在這個前提底下我們也希望立陶宛認我們這邊的簽章所以其實我們有一個合作協定就是用雙方的電子簽章互相承認來簽的但當然這是立陶宛那我想國際上面現在像美國這個國家標準技術相關的單位像NIST這個機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8421.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8439.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那他所制定出來電子簽章相關的準則基本上是國際是通用的所以我們會優先先跟NIST來談這個技術上面的對接所以目前就是立陶宛跟美國那我們接下來因為NIST之前有回訪我們嘛我們也會盡快跟NIST跟他們說我們這邊很可能很快會三讀通過那希望技術對接程序我們盡快來達成 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8441.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8468.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那部長您也提到過那這會促進我國未來在國際經貿談判簽署雙邊合力的順暢度可以具體舉例嗎?好比方說像台歐盟的相關的經貿的對話那或者是台英相關的其實對方也都有說目前如果是跨境啊要簽一些相關的合約文件啊或是說一些銀行的往來如果還需要FedEx就是或其他的物流公司把那張紙這個用飛機運來運去的話其實是增加成本而且也拖慢這個處理的速度 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8468.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8471.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那如果雙方都能夠電子互認的話這當然是最好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8472.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8498.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
﹏OK﹏所以目前就是臺歐跟臺英﹏臺歐跟臺英這個都有具體來討論﹏OK﹏那有些專家和業者建議為了﹏未來要和國際接軌那﹏也應該要訂出保證等級分級才能談如何有效﹏是的﹏那這方面您的看法﹏對那所以我們現在就已經分成了電子簽章就比較弱的一級﹏自行約定的一級﹏以及數位簽章就好像有硬件證明一樣比較高的一級﹏那這個也是跟包含歐盟在內接軌就會變得比較容易﹏OK﹏好﹏那這邊﹏這邊﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8500.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8528.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我們看到這個那去年本席去年年底在選舉期間遭受就是全國首見的利用模擬器大量生成人頭帳號的網路攻擊那對方是以製作惡意的梗圖然後還有散播謠言還有恐嚇的言論的方式比如說像是不選邱若驊的話我每天帶人來開槍塑造本席的負面形象意圖使本席不當選那我要請教部長面對這樣新型態的網路攻擊還有假消息有什麼樣的看法就是不顧慮本席是受害者的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8529.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8556.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
針對這種運用網路科技還有進行二次攻擊造成不管是公眾人物還是民眾來說影響針對這件事的看法因為現在就是AI它的發展已經到有任何人他實際20秒錄音像我們都是公眾人物我們的錄音現在都直播出去的任何人拿著這個現在就可以合成幾乎辨認不出來的好像我們兩個在對話的那種錄音那接下來在影片的部分我們也看到像SORA等等都已經開始推出了 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8557.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8578.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
未來我想我們可能要有一個不同的想法就如果沒有數位簽章的可能都要當成是合成的那他剛剛您說提到這種輿論操作他一個人一個自然人但他創造出一千個可能每個你點進去他的這個Facebook的牆未來看起來都好像一個正常人要有正常的生活又怎麼樣但全部都是合成的那這個情況就必須要靠電子簽章法來解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8580.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8598.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
現在部長您提到像是AI技術那也是像科技也發展的申訴那用在正面方向可以帶來國家的進步那被不法的集團或是有心人士利用的話那帶來的惡質誹謗像是假消息那如何針對這樣的新科技犯罪掌握狀況並且及時因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8601.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8628.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我想這是非常非常重要首先就是我們有一個概念叫預先澄清像兩年多前我有拍一個我自己de-fake自己的這個影片那這個就讓大家知道說以後眼見不能為憑了必須要靠這個查證等等這是第一個那第二個是說我們也必須要透過像審議是調查的方式那事實上最近我們就有發了我在那個民主峰會有講十幾萬則簡訊出去那邀請民眾裡面有統計代表性的可能400人左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8628.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8639.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
一起來討論說他們現在生活上碰到哪些相關的危害以及哪些是平台也許可以自律但是哪些大家覺得政府就應該要做的那我們會透過這種審議事明要來建立我們未來相關作為的正當性 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8641.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8669.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
今年美國也準備在選總統了嘛那剛剛俄羅斯也產生了總統那很多國家都已經實施不在即投票了那電子簽章法修正草案通過後如何應用在若實用在不在即投票不過目前跟簽名或蓋章比較像的行為其實是連署的行為就是類似公投的連署等等但是投票它並不是我們電子簽章法裡面說簽名或蓋章那個行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8670.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8684.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
是因為現在目前蠻多國家像是英、美、德、法、日本、韓國他們都已經在實施不同類型的那台灣如果要意思說電子簽章法的範圍裡面可能是包含投票這個動作他可能只包含像聯署這個動作OK好謝謝謝謝部長區委員發言完畢現在請郵號委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8707.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8708.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
有請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8713.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8736.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
委員好部長謝謝那延續著剛才九六萬會員有提到就是那時候部長你有提到說像這樣子的電子簽章啊是可以來促進國際的參與那我想請教一下在這個電子簽章的部分目前對於這種國際參與那外交部買不買章 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8738.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8757.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我想在經貿談判上面其實我們在行政院裡面有一個經貿談判辦公室那我們都是跟隨著就是經貿辦去規劃包含台美的、台歐盟的、台英的等等那透過像數位經濟論壇等等的方式去盡快的促進數位簽章的這個電子的對接那這部分我們民主司如果需要細節的話可以來進行說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8759.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8784.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
沒關係,細節的話大概提供給本席辦公室就可以。好,我們就書面來提供。對,但是因為目前來講我知道部長您心願說能夠讓這種數位跟電子的部分尤其是在簽章能夠在國際參與中是不是能夠成行但是目前我想問一下那外交部連自己內部的就是包括電子簽章等等的不管是在用在護照的辦理或是相關的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8786.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8805.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
有關於外交部的業務的辦理他們都持反對的態度那我想請問一下部長要怎麼溝通外交部這個之前業務委員提到就是公告排除的部分有一些是導入技術方案他比方現在在共同供應契約或未來雲市級的政府管等等就可以技術上解決的那這一部分我想我們年底前這個素材署會盤點一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8806.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8822.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
相關的政府機關可以計數就解決的。有一些可能是因為他處理到密件啊或之類這個必須要在就是法規或規程上面來進行調整那這部分我們也會再做第二波的盤點來全力協助他們能夠導入電子文件跟數位簽章。那電子文件跟數位簽章 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8824.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8838.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
外交部他是直接公告啊就是說辦理外交公務及普通護照一般民眾的普通護照合、換、補發、加簽、修正皆排除在電子簽章法那我想請問一下像這樣子已經是 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8839.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8853.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
不是涉及到密件也不是涉及到國際的文書那在年底之前的話要來進行這個溝通那有沒有信心在這個所謂的護照這個基本的外交部的業務能夠溝通使用這電子簽章 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8854.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8870.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
對我想我們就是現在就是委員提到了我們就會盡快的去跟外交部這應該是領事領悟的相關的領悟局去了解到他們是目前是因為技術或經費的原因呢還是因為他們要修改相關的法令那我們第一時間了解到之後也會給委員一個書面的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8871.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8895.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那我還是期待就是在外交部也是大部那在這基本的這種換發護照的部分他不是涉及到特別的機密但他也是個人的隱私權的這個所謂的資安問題那如果說連外交部都沒有信心的話那我相信數位發展不要推動這個電子簽章法跟數位簽章是非常辛苦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8895.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8906.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那我想持續接著就叫那以外交部為例的話那中央跟地方機關目前有哪些單位是直接來表態這個排除適用在電子簽章法的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8907.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8908.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
數據跟我講幾個就可以跟我們報告齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8925.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8943.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那這個其實我們在一邊修法的過程中行政院也有開會那本來有26個單位那現在向行政院公共工程委員會他因為先前的公告不是排除電子簽章法施行項目而是運用技術跟程序另為規定所以工程會這個就目前就已經不算在裡頭了 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8944.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8948.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
議員葛如鈞應該在過去經濟部曾經會診的檔案因為我們這些業務是從經濟部商業室這邊過來所以盤點完之後他其實他不是算在排除電子簽章適用的項目所以剛剛講的有26個中央單位的部分其實現在只有24個中央單位那地方政府的部分就剛剛跟委員做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8967.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8967.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
：二、審查委員葛如鈞 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8983.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9010.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
此外,其實我們電子簽章法三獨,中央地方大家一起往數位化去推動,就可以降下來,所以以上做這個那我直接接著就交好了,就是說那像你剛才所提到的那麼多的單位那也都是大的單位,大的部會,直接反映是要排除適用電子簽章法哪些的單位他們直接統一說在現在就直接配合或今年年底就直接配合我們在行政院的開會的時候其實這個行政院政委有政委這種協調會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9011.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9037.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
所以才會有一個三年的緩衝時間啊像在那個那些單位已經第一時間同意第一時間同意的部分哪一個項目那所以那所以我還是要建議啊就是說數位發展部的話大家是期待甚深啊因為居然跟NCC當初業務切開了之後那是在打油門啊那所以說我們在打東啊那所以說如果像現在來講我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9038.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9063.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
提到了包括今天的資料報告也有司法院的部分他們也提到他們也希望排除試用那外交部也提到排除試用但是再問哪些單位在第一時間都同意說要來試用主動積極來配合但是沒有辦法直接列舉到就是重要的項目的時候那我本期還是建議啊就是還是要積極的去溝通因為3年的時間很快啊那 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9064.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9090.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
提了3年,3年在花時間溝通一個立委的任期也才4年那部會所長的任期短則長則多少年我們不知道但是行政院如果說在政務委員他在指導協調的時候這個部分都沒有辦法給出肯定答案像現在也沒有辦法回出哪一個可以拿來說嘴的就是哪一個項目可以直接來適用那我還是會建議那這還是要積極溝通那另外司法院的部分你們要怎麼溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9091.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9113.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
因為我們法官也有做說明我先一分鐘補充說你用15秒簡單一點你用那麼多一分鐘他就在表達說一般程序將來會做這個不再排除的適用可能性那個教育部的國教署那他會針對目前排除事務做遴選作業規範叫做檢討阿從貿易局現在有很多貿易署 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9119.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9137.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
會對法規的部分來修改公告所以在會上這些都有具體表達會來積極推動的我還是坦白講就是說這些都是在討論所以說回答的部分未來如果說配合辦理有沒有哪個業務是會拿來做一個已經率先來適用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9138.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9165.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
現在考試院的證書,我們參加國家考試時證書都是要用紙本他現在用這個大概都電子化所以我們在這個開所以這個是電子數位簽章還是電子簽章還是電子簽名電子文件我還是要提一下就是說這個部分的進度其實是扭步那因為只是一個證書的部分的話我相信這不是稅發展部他主要要推出的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9166.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9184.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那最後的話我是要接著問一下部長就是在剛才很多的委員有提到美國將要禁止TikTok那台灣要跟進那數位發展部回應了那我想問一下目前來講跟TikTok的對就是連接的這個平台溝通的管道是否已經建立了 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9184.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9208.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
是的,我們之前就有約TikTok直接來台灣那是他們的新加坡的那一個公司的人過來所以目前是已經有這個直接管道我們也要求說各個執法機關如果有像剛剛提到中選會等等相關的需求的話不需要不要再透過中間人是直接對他們但當然這個並不跟他們是危害產品這個還是同時發生的事情所以我們資安法這邊對危害產品的定義也是送到行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9209.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9233.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以目前來講台灣是不會去禁止TikTok嗎?就是我們已經在我們公務網路公用使用的場域以及按照兒少法在中小學的網路環境裡面這些事目前都已經有所管制那所以未來會禁止嗎?未來就是按照自安法它修法的期程我們會在自安法裡面去再繼續檢討說特定非公務機關或是關鍵基礎設施等等這些部分那是不是會會我們再用書面來提供給各位好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9237.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9261.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
謝謝議員發言完畢。現在請許智傑委員發言。謝謝主席。我們還是請部長。請部長。委員好。部長辛苦哈。 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9263.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9283.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
這個電子簽章我想大家都很關心那因為剛剛談到TikTok我就想到那個我們的電子簽章的防詐的部分嘛那防詐的部分在FB將來數位部已經跟他們講好了吧是就是包含FB跟Line跟Google這三個我們是先溝通的 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9284.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9305.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
對,就是這些要下廣告就一定要用我們的電子簽章嘛目前有法律依據的是投信投股法所以會從投資廣告開始但是我們在打詐轉法裡面會特別跟內政部配合把它擴及到其他廣告所以我在想說TikTok當然就是說美國的政策我們台灣要考慮到什麼程度我們會有自己的考量但是如果是類似 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9307.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9323.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9323.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9345.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
所以就是說在FB9這些都談好就是廣告要用電子簽章嘛那TikTok已經談了還是還沒談我們有讓他們知道這個發展方向但是他要先落地我們要求他落地的這個依據是在這個打砸專法裡面目前行政院就是從內政部當這個總收現在正在 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9347.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9354.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
就是應該很快就可以有一個收斂的版本那在這個收斂版本有法律依據的情況下我們就會來要求TikTok來落敵 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9377.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9383.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
禁不禁是整個國家的角度但是防詐的部分我相信他們應該也願意配合我們做 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9384.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9408.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那美國當然他是也有一個講法是說他希望TikTok半年之內就是不一定是禁而是說讓境外敵對勢力不能再實質控制他把他的資產或者軟體整個賣出去之類的那如果到那個時候發生的話我們這邊還是保有我國自己在認定美國雖然說沒有實質控制我們可以來看是不是其實還有實質控制所以也不一定是說美國怎麼認定我們就怎麼認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9409.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9425.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
對當然就是這個國安單位會思考啦就是說跟美國我們有不一樣的思考的角度嘛我說的這個是整個防滲透的部分嘛那我們也希望說防炸還是要先做所以應該機會還蠻大的嘛好那我們再來講說那個電子簽章這個現在數位部預計3年完成嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9439.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9460.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那是我們中央機關啦就是希望他們目前的排除適用的公告三年之後就會自動失效除非他來立個法那三年完成我們看到現在還有很多中央單位認為他們不適用嘛就是我現在列在這裡的都是嘛對不對那這個部分是什麼原因為什麼不適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9461.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9490.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
他有一些是很積極像剛剛這個鄭華署長有提到說像環境部他已經願意來檢討或者是這個經濟部盡快的來試用那有一些是因為他像剛剛提到的漁業署他說這個遠洋漁船上面首先不一定是我國國人第二個他們傳統上是用資本作業漁船上面不一定有那麼好的網路連線等等他有一些理由啦那這個部分我想我們在這個這邊三度通過之前我們就已經會啟動我們初步的盤點那三度通過之後我們當然會更進一步的來要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9490.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9502.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我想裡面這些2000多個大小單位可能有一半以上可能他就是不懂不熟悉不想用 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9503.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9516.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
所以2000多個業務對那有些可能是十幾年前他排除他自己也不記得了所以我們也要提醒他一下說這個排除理由現在還在嗎那個署長要補充一下對跟委員報告齁就是中央單位有26個單位啦阿剛才報2個已經存在死的 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9521.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9545.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
．﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9546.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9574 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我們每個人手機也都開始進步所以我們在這個法修完之後我們執法也會跟著做配套然後如部長所說的我們會請這幾個單位大家過去他比較不熟悉我們讓他熟悉過去他醫生不夠我們可能看中央政府怎麼做變醫生第三個就是說要有法令要修訂的部分那也提醒他因為有的法令上面就寫要書面為之就不要都用電子 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9574.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9600.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以基本上三年的時間政府預計可以完成所以我們要三年頭頭阿有的說要一年越近是最好啦但是這個數位進程都有議審跟法規這個要去處理所以我們抓三年啊行政院院辦是三年我們會朝這個院辦來執行以上OK我是建議就是當然除了儘快之外啦就是這一些不管是不熟悉 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9602.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9627.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
不懂、不會用甚至不想用的這些單位希望說數位部可以盡量去溝通我舉個例子現在全國最不想用的地方政府是哪裡因為都各有排除啊因為每個人手機現在都用數位化很熟悉我們就是論事我們沒有去因人設事啦現在最不願意用的是花蓮嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9630.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9651.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
就是他排除的最多嘛那你們當然要去跟國民黨的總召溝通一下花蓮也算是我們國土之內不是國土之外啊不應該排除啊這個希望說蘇衛部也盡量去努力啦我相信有溝通就會有進步嘛這個我說的不會用 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9652.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9672.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9672.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9684.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
另外就是說我們的那個電子簽章法過後那將來就是跟自然人憑證跟工商憑證這些全部都會連結在一起嗎對他們都是數位簽章就效率比較強的那一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9685.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9704.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
所以將來有數位簽章就他是不是類似就是我們譬如是等於那有蓋章簽名還有硬件證明嗎就是有一個數位的硬件證明是算是數位的硬件證明沒錯就有硬件證明的蓋章所以他是跟內政部有在連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9705.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9729.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
有的,那這個整個自然憑證系統包含卡式的跟線上的都是內政部來設計因為這個未來會影響很大嘛,因為民間用硬件證明代表說,啊這個應該是比較特別的嘛那你今天這些東西都是跟民政機關有做密切的聯繫那這些東西我們現在數位部跟內政部是不是已經溝通了有有,我們我有持續溝通,像剛剛提到的自然憑證,這個據縣委員有說大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9731.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9745.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
從頭到尾有發過這個900萬張左右不過以我們所知活藥在使用的大概就400萬上下那這些就表示這些人都已經有類似內政部給的硬件證明了因為這個部分我想說先預作溝通啦因為將來到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9746.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9763.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
身分證、數位身分證現在有一些老人或者是有一些人不願意用數位身分證他要用傳統的身分證那他傳統的身分證裡面將來就是說把我們的數位簽章這個東西是不是也簽在晶片裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9765.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9790.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我想這個從一開始就是國際上面在普查說有沒有類似數位身份證的國家的時候我們因為有自然憑證其實一直被算在裡面了那委員剛剛講的是說是不是未來身份證防衛程度更高或者換發的時候要不要有一個選項不是必要喔是說裡面有自然憑證的功能那以我所知內政部之前也有同意說必須要用專法來做這方面修訂所以這個可能要問內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9791.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9805.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
所以這個選項可能也希望說內政部跟數位部溝通一下就是說我今天要用傳統身分證我不選數位身分證的這個是我可以勾選吧那我要再勾的就包括我的治療品證要不要附帶在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9806.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9827.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那我的數位簽章是不是也附在在裡面甚至包括我的健保卡是不是也附在在裡面是不是都讓人民可以有自由勾選那這個就是在政策上是內政部決定嘛對不對在技術上數位部都沒有問題嘛對不對講技術上我們是全力配合那另外還有另外一個顧名就是個資的安全守護上那個資未來的那個獨立個資會也會來處理OK希望說這個再多做溝通謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9833.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9861.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
許委員發言完畢。現在請蔡其昌委員發言。謝謝主席。請唐鳳部長。請部長。委員好。部長好。部長一早上辛苦齁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9863.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9887.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我看了一下大概很多委員今天早上在我的感覺那個教學的成分大過於質詢謝謝委員也就是說大家都在問這是什麼外國所以你很認真的在跟美國委員的問題做解釋那我為什麼會提這個是因為你想立法委員都需要問那麼多問題來問你電子簽章是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9892.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9913.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那你想齁這個接下來的民眾數位部怎麼去想一個更簡單的語言來告訴大家電子簽章是什麼那其實對我的意思也很簡單啦其實剛剛許志杰委員已經提了對我來講很簡單就是電子的運購證明就是你們應該朝這個方向去讓大家知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9915.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9939.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
你你可以簽名你可以做該印章你都可以做但是印鑑證明就是有一些單位他就需要印鑑證明那以前印鑑證明那一顆印章像我因為很少使用我已經忘記我的印鑑證明是哪一顆印章了所以我每一次要印鑑證明我都要請我太太把我的印章拿一堆去那一個單位一顆一顆蓋看哪一顆是我的印鑑瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9940.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9952.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那所以邏輯你就告訴大家說你應該很清楚說未來要再宣導再跟民眾溝通這一個環節你想在立法院你都這麼辛苦了那民眾你會比這裡辛苦一百倍所以你要告訴大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9954.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9971.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
這張卡片就是電子的硬件證明謝謝,非常好的提醒我們一定就請同仁這樣來辦理好這是第一個第二個大家對於我看一下今天早上每一個草野不分藍綠大家對於3年都很有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9972.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9994.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
我也提了我的版本其實我的版本也是一年好那為什麼我的版本是一年因為三年這個時間我當然知道嘛這個第一個你要更新所有的設備因為如果我們設備不對等其實沒有用無法發揮它的作用所以第一個是設備第二個我們要盤點所有的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9995.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10020.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
因為過去沒有寫到電子簽章現在通通把它加上去所以我的辦公室也開始在盤點到底有哪些法要修法好 所以你需要3年那為什麼我明明知道這個我還是要講一年是因為第一個我覺得大家要當立法院要當速發部的後盾我如果改一年齁每一個單位加以那個腎上腺素才會噴發啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10022.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10034.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
否則你們去跟人家溝通愛理不理地方政府你更難所以在這個邏輯底下我提一年的目的其實就是讓讓中央各單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10035.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10053.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
甚至地方政府要很知道這個是草野各政黨立委都希望趕快加速那我希望加速當然環保啦無止化啦效率的提升這當然是一件事啦但對我們來講更重要的是民眾啊希望來嚴懲希望台灣的這些詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10056.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10084.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
希望台灣的這種網路這種詐騙能夠快速降低特別是假冒名的廣告所以上一次我已經上一次的質詢我也問過你這個問題所以我支持電子簽章其實背後很重要的因素當然這些都是但是迫切在國家迫切需要解決的問題其實就是這個詐騙的問題所以沒有先把基礎工作電子簽章先把它普及化做建構好 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10086.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10105.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
﹏後面我們要抓壞人喔那個很困難難度就很高要在源頭來處理沒有錯所以我支持原因在這個地方所以我當然看到3年我就我就覺得我個人就很有意見啦喔要再抓詐騙你給他面子說對我現在在認證修法也過了3年以後我一定可以幫他大幅降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10107.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10131.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
觀眾說這些我看民眾是聽不到下去我們對平台的要求不受這個三年影響你過了這個之後你開始修平台但是這裡面會有很多細微的問題或許也會產生因為你現在開始第一招你先管平台管平台其實跟這個也不見得有這是間接關係你還是要在其他的法規上規範平台必須要有電子簽章簡單講你來我這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10135.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10157.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
你要進場要拿國民身份證以前假設現在你就給他一個叫做電子簽章等同這樣的概念但是這個是你先大方向的把規範電子平台讓詐騙的數可以一定程度的下降但是未來還是有很多的形態我隨便舉例比如說我在臉書發一則訊息說我在賣杯子 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10163.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10177.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我也沒有下廣告啊我也沒有推什麼都沒有我就在我然後你怎麼知道這個是不是詐騙一樣嘛可是他們他也沒有公司啊他也是治安人啊因為他就在個人的臉書上那這個個人有可能是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10184.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10203.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
但是我的意思是說當你建構得越完整各單位配合得越好大家使用的習慣因為這跟習慣有關嘛剛剛大家為什麼不配合譬如說剛剛講花蓮縣政府不配合是因為花蓮縣政府還不知道未來這件事情的重要性當每一個縣市的 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10204.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10228.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
市民、縣民都很方便的可以做這個事情的時候只有花蓮還要拿硬件在那裡等、在那裡檢查大家就開始罵了嘛民眾就自然而然這時候就是大家的力量因為現在此刻談這個沒有人知道這件事情對每一個人的生活的方便性效率的提升嘛所以每個人不覺得現在為什麼我要配合你可是當你 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10229.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10257.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
你使用者到一個程度超過了一個臨界點過了之後大家就開始覺得這個很方便這個最好這個很好沒錯委員講得太好了因為這是雙方我們是雙方合一所以只要有一方一直覺得說對方為什麼還不提供數位簽章所以你要達到那個點就是普及的速度要快所以三年為什麼我說我看到三年我也不太能夠接受原因在這裡所以有很多要介面要處理那第三個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10259.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10286.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
剛剛有提到說那個叫做有一些要排除啦比如說我剛剛看到那個那個張法官有來嘛張法官可以麻煩你上台一下齁這個我知道那個像最高行政法院齁他們現在就啟用那個叫做主文簡訊e-mail通知服務意思就是說判決啊判決馬上讓通知當事人知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10289.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10299.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
議員報告這個是那個主文公告的部分這個可能主文公告其實沒有要電那個只是我們公告的方式對那他有排除電子他有排除電子簽章嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10300.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10323.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
主文公告不是經過我們這個電子訴訟系統所以可能不是這個跟電子簽章：因為我不知道嘛他項目裡面只提到說司法程序要排除是是請問一下這是算司法程序嗎通知當事人說欸你的判決狀況然後判決主文我在網站上公告這個算是司法程序的排除嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10324.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10342.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
欸主文公告是司法程序的一環沒有錯但是主文公告本身他沒有要他是我們公告他不是我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10343.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10371.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
跟委員報告我們這個主文這個簡訊通知其實是他們推的一個便民服務我知道我知道我都接受照正式的公告方式是我們張貼網站跟這個我們或是法院的公告欄不會去主動傳這個簡訊給當事人可是我看你們的新聞稿秒資啊秒資訴訟終結嘛最高行政法院啟用主文簡訊email通知服務新聞稿那內容就告訴大家說 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10372.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10383.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
你的判決主文請至司法院主文公告網站查詢所以顧文波這個簡訊通知其實是他們的一種辨明服務應該不是在司法程序裡頭對對對所以他不可以被排除未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10385.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10410.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
這個部分我們在跟這個最高行政法院或是內部在演繹但是其實這個應該不是我們認知傳統的司法程序但是法律裡面直接齁這條修法裡面直接把司法訴訟程序就給他排除掉了所以未來司法院在發這一則簡訊因為我講的是一個詐騙型態嘛就是說我知道你們都在訴訟我發簡訊給你我告訴你說你的主文判決已經公告了 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10411.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10435.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
然後呢叫你連結這個網站我也知道今天要判決啊我也知道這幾天可能要判決我說到這個我就點進去那個假的釣魚的假的網站對那因為你們被排除了嘛所以這一個這樣的一個網站的沒有電子簽章的認證就是就我們111簡訊平台其實任何能用供應契約的機關都可以來使用不一定要電子簽章法的使用機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10436.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10441.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
我只是提供你們說司法院我們在修法裡面要一條法令叫做把司法程序排除這一句話他是不是會排除了因為檢察官詐騙法官詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10464.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10465.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
蔡有言發言完畢現在請謝伊鳳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10499.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10502.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
謝謝主席。我想要請唐部長。請部長。唐部長早安。其實我還是對於就是電子簽章法的通過那是否會減低詐騙這樣子的一個樣態以及建樹。我是抱持這是一個question mark那其實剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10523.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10548.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
我們前面的委員也有提到那就算是例如我們把法院或者是地檢署的通知然後由訴訟平台來做相關的告知而不是電子簽章法沒有辦法通過但是它也是一個詐騙的樣態是不是那所以你今天能不能告訴我們你這個電子簽章法 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10548.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10564.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
就算通過以後你到底認為對於詐騙的建樹跟樣態你能降低多少其實我也問過了其他的相關的部會不管是法務部或者是金管會他們對於他們在業務端 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10565.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10595.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
就是說在金融機構裡面在地檢署裡面相關的辦理的案件甚至是法院對於案件的審理等等他們都已經提高相對的比例但是我們怎麼樣子相信數位部對於相關的技術層面以及所有的程序部分你們可以做好規劃以及能夠提供相關的技術的相關的給各個部會、跨部會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10595.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10612.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10612.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10635.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
其實它最上位的這個政府的憑證的這個程序一向都是我們的訴證司也就是以前的國發會資管處來進行這方面的規劃所以它已經很穩定而且也沒有出什麼問題已經運作了相當久的時間從20幾年前電子簽章法通過到現在這第一點有一個具體的成績第二個我們現在也是數位公共建設相關的一個主要的機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10636.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10650.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
所以我們蒐集地方的需求其他部會的需求之後我們是一次規劃不管發6000或者數位核銷等等一次規劃這個建制這個建制大家如果有領過6000的話應該可以瞭解說我們在建制系統方面也沒有出什麼問題所以這些是我們實際的成績 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10652.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10673.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
我我我說的你你講的都是一個非常小的部分可是我們這樣講的是全面性喔那我們現在在意的是說你把過去的就是說什麼自然人憑證等等相關的簽章然後把它變成一個電子簽章那否就是 everyone對不對那如果這樣子的情況下就能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10674.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10704.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
例如就能夠降低了網路的實名制的相關的問題等等但是我們還有其他部分例如說好了我們剛才說的法院詐騙、地檢詐騙以及相關的網路的詐騙或者是你現在看到的我們其實不只在於YouTube或者是在臉書上面其實在於我們的LINE或者是WeChat甚至更新的APP就是WhatsApp等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10704.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10727.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
都有相關的詐騙,那你這個部分你怎麼...像冒充機關發簡訊這個樣態也是我們蘇政司透過一一一的平台來解決那簡訊的部分你怎麼樣透過電訊業者就是簡訊啊,就因為我們一一一這個號碼沒有任何別人可以來仿冒所以任何的機關甚至現在台水台電到年底加起來大概會送一億甚至兩億則都有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10727.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10739.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那這些大家就可以認明說是111這個號碼或就是其他的像165啊等等這些短碼這一定是政府機關一開頭的來發送那這個不等電子簽章法我們就現在已經在實施了 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10740.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10758.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
﹏﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10759.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10778.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
數字上當然比較不容易講他就是看起來就像就是說你在發簡訊的時候也不是很很容易清楚的瞭解啊是不是?所以這個東西是怎麼樣子阻隔大家想要就是防呆嘛就是你就把我們當作就是把民眾當作呆瓜嘛是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10779.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10807.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
不是我把民眾當成什麼我是說我們想要的就是說我們不要還要花腦筋記得說一就是政府的數字而是我們希望的是我們的手機就收不到這種簡訊有沒有辦法我理解對像簡訊裡面有附網址這個網址如果不經登記沒有辦法再發出來大宗簡訊部分這個部分NCC已經有做這部分的控管因為這是NCC的職權啦但我們在防詐裡面大家都是聯防的所以我們在技術上能夠幫忙的我們會絕對是全力來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10809.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10827.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我覺得部長你還是要回去再看一下對於電子簽章法即便我們今天給他過了那到底對於整體的防詐的成效以及對於就是說不同種類的詐騙或者是你只能規範到部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10828.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10844.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
到底是有多大的效率以及對於整個詐騙的遏止我們到底還需要在技術平台上面提供跨部會什麼樣子的協助我認為抒發部還有很大一步路要走 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10845.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10846.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
謝謝委員發言完畢現在請魯明哲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10890.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10891.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
謝謝主席,有請唐部長。請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10896.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10919.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
委員好,唐部長今天當然是這個最主要電子簽章法經過了大概20年終於提出了符合時代的一些修正條文我今天K了一個早上包括我們也看到民間的整個部分大家基本上都是支持要跟得上時代而且不是跟得上已經跟不上了 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10920.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10941.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
現在已經跟不上了只有民間在用不管是電子類去做一個證明或者憑證那個大概已經行之有年了因為前幾天看到ETF這個什麼新時代的哇大家匯款幾十萬、幾百萬直接你知道手機操作一下就匯出去了我發覺現在一般的國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10942.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10962.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
對於使用這樣的科技的產品當然也許有年紀上面的差異但我覺得滿普遍的去接受很多包括我們過去覺得錢要怎麼要注意我覺得他們現在已經經常在使用這個部分但我希望政府能夠跟上很多委員都談到這個的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10963.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10988.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
那到底幾個機關到現在好像也不太一樣我們委員說有26個中央機關那我們有聽到署長說是24個中央機關那你們簡報給我跟剛剛好幾位委員用的是17個中央的機關加這個7個地方政府但是這個其實數字好像不是討論的17加7是24那一座對大概這24個 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10991.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11018.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
中央地方一起加起來其實我的關鍵不是24個機關而是20年了而是這個法令其實要做的人已經有20年可以去微調改變他有20年的時間也體驗到外部的社會科技的進步手機的使用跟銀行很多比他這些政府部門一直申請租用的公文 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11019.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11041.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
嚴重度千百倍的不管提款都早就進入類似電子簽章或者用電子的模式的時候可是這些的機關他很多其實我是覺得就是不想那當然我們也親自打電話去問了那有一些我希望這個署長這邊也明確要去清查啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11041.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11056.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
﹖例如我們問了國教署﹖你們說有大概5項﹖他還沒有辦法用電子簽章﹖那署長說很委屈啊﹖他們通通都可以啦﹖那工程會﹖他說他們也都可以啦﹖那這等等的部分啊﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11057.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11086.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那我覺得也不是重點要精確一點要精確一點我希望說針對於中央跟地方政府的整個的部分那剛剛我也聽到部長有說嘛現在主要我們打電話就問了一下第一個有些認為說他的機密敏感的文件他還是擔心第二個呢因為他的資料非常複雜有非常厚厚的一本他在實務上覺得好像也有困難好像中央地方政府我們問到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11087.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11103.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
第三個我也聽到很明顯的數位落差啦數位落差包括了他在機器設備上面這一種落差第二個我是講真的耶這個人的部分有數位落差也蠻嚴重的你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11104.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11119.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
他有點恐懼他有點怕他們能不用就不用有時候不是因為你做到局長了你的數位就很厲害嘛對不對所以在地方中央政府我們普遍問到都這種情況所以我想這個部長你說一下好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11120.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11147.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
除了這三個原因你目前看到最大的原因大概排序是怎麼樣其實一句話來講就是有沒有一個公共建設或共同公益契約提供的一個解決方案只要他們知道有技術解決方案的通常不會抗拒還不知道或者目前他的用法還沒有辦法直接被技術上解決的他一想到說他還要開一個採購案還要建置系統等等那就會告訴我們說期程要拖比較長 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11150.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11166.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那我現在就請教你喔這個漏日條款確定要三年嗎?我們也在討論這個問題喔其實你不是要給他們三年啦你已經給他20年了你已經有20年除非他自己不管那是他的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11166.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11192.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
如果他沒有意識到這個時代是怎麼樣坦白講我也覺得是他跟不上時代那我覺得民間已經這麼活絡了不管是數位經濟數位方面的一個推動而且他的認證、憑證可用的包括我們認為說這高風險啊他們事實上幾百萬包括很多的部分都用電子來做一個證明的一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11192.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11200.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
﹏所以我是覺得這個部分我們最後討論﹏我們都希望是一年的這個部分﹏若條款再給他一年,你覺得機會大不大? |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11222.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11222.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
響鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11223.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11251.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
我希望說這個部分我也提過啦很多的有數位落差的部分系統怎麼樣去整合怎麼樣去真的是讓要用的人也覺得說你不管是到這個期間是多久不是讓他去拖的你知道嗎如果沒有學習沒有跟上其實你再給他3年再給他5年他還是跟不上所以我覺得在中間是一個非常重要的push推動而且必須要有明確的一個進度如果這個法規通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11253.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11281.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
針對於這些不管各種方式沒有辦法跟上或者已經他公告他不要用這些單位你們有沒有一個明確的計畫讓他逐步跟上有我們其實在去年就提了剛剛提到四支公共建設計畫大概都是在協助各個機關他不用自行建置來用我們的系統就可以只是說因為每個機關的需求他是持續在出現所以我們也會盡快的來盤點各個機關他的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11281.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11287.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
看有沒有我們漏掉的還沒有提公共建設的那我們就趕快在接下來預算會期來幫他們提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11288.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11311.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
好,那最後我要特別提醒一下因為大家都期待電子簽章法特別提了非常多次如果電子簽章法經過修法上路之後你預計有效的能夠對於詐騙防詐這個部分應該非常有效特別冒充投資的民營辦公室包括冒充名人因為他要有自己的簽章嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11312.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11324.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那我想這樣的因為現在主要最熱門的一些社群的平台我知道你有沒有部分的一個溝通什麼時候明確像Meta、Google你們是不是已經溝通了?都OK了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11327.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11355.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那其他的這個部分現在會有個狀況如果你沒有辦法公平讓主要的社群平台一起上路的時候有可能發生一個最糟糕的一個現況就是劣幣除良幣大家一起抓的市場是一個客戶要登廣告的要付費大家抓的這一塊就他客戶的一個角度你要我放手可以按照這個制度來他不放 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11356.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11385.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
變成很多奇奇怪怪的搞不好這些客戶都到哪裡去了原來他可以拖他可以不配合他可以用原來的方式他還不用電子簽章所以我是希望在台灣這些主要的平台真的這個時間要好好去溝通大家一定主要至少七到八成這社群平台都能夠一起上路才能夠非常齊步的向前走這個部分你有沒有信心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11385.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11385.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11417.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11439.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
謝謝。盧委員發言完畢。現在請鍾嘉斌委員。鍾嘉斌委員。鍾嘉斌委員不在。現在請侯孟楷委員發言。主席謝謝。麻煩請唐鳳部長。請唐部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11444.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11464.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
委員好部長好部長電子簽章法本身也認為說這已經不是現在應不應該啦而是早就應該做了現在來推真的都還有點晚了齁不過除了這個電子簽章法其實我們應該要更超前部署現在歐盟最近剛通過這所謂的AI基本法也就人工智慧基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11464.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11478.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
本期最近一直在倡議認為是說從去年的好萊塢大罷工事件倒成是說大家對於這個深層式AI有很多不同的想法未知的東西本來就比較需要有一個導引一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11479.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11501.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
你剛剛也有被媒體問到就是昨天我們有葛委員他去做這個生成式AI的這個影片然後來詢問說行政院長說到底哪一個是真哪一個是假其實本席認為這是凸顯一個問題什麼問題原來要複製一個人的影片生成讓他從他嘴巴裡面講出那個話有那麼的容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11501.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11518.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
而且那麼的栩栩如生啊我們甚至有看到說有一些那種詐騙的廣告反詐的廣告啊是有這個媽媽在跟女兒視訊然後那女兒明明就是一樣的臉然後女兒就講一樣的話然後講是說啊我現在發生了車禍請媽媽趕快給我匯款結果突然間叮咚門一打開女兒進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11525.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11553.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
所以那個媽媽才知道說原來他一直在跟視訊的那女兒是AI啊是假的是詐騙集團好所以現在人工智慧基本法國科會本期有問這個吳主委講是說年底應該會推出來請教有沒有跟我們速發部這邊來溝通討論是謝謝委員我想我有看委員的這個記者會的說明包含這個兼顧產業發展跟權力保護等等這個我都非常的同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11553.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11563.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那我們因為我也是國科會的成員所以在這個討論裡面包含公部門的使用的界限啊等等這個我們都有持續跟國科會在討論對我現在問一下進度在哪裡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11564.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11590.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
有沒有草案的內容已經有成型再去做討論了法條的部分還是現在都還是在霧裡看花都還是在雲中柔格年底就要出來了而且現在年底出來到底是出國科會還是可以出行政院我們都不知道可是立法院這邊我們都已經有各委員的版本開始陸續出來啦那人工智慧基本法相對來講應該是重要吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11590.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11614.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我想我有看委員的版本看起來也不完全是歐盟的那個架構看起來比較接近美國或日本的架構那我想這個架構的方向我們現在之前在討論的時候就是由歐盟的或者美日相關的架構進行內部討論所以委員問說有沒有責定哪一個框架然後把那個草案送出來這個可能還是要國科會來回答但是我們討論的時候並不是沒有具體條文在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11615.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11630.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
我們現在開過幾次會?針對人工智慧基本法正式開會?開過幾次會?有沒有找過速發部了?在我擔任政委的時候這個就已經在新聞科技匯報已經持續在討論了因為我們AI行動方案都現在2.0了事實上是持續一段很長的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11631.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11652.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
但部長你這樣其實回答很空虛很空泛啦聽起來就是沒有正式的針對人工智慧基本法來開會嘛在這裡面我們討論的過程裡面我們有一個概念就是對於明顯的危害像合成名人做投資詐騙或者是這個親密的照片的合成或影音的合成或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11652.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11672.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
．入選舉等這些部分其實透過單點的這個修法或立法這個部分大概都已經有所處理那您剛剛提到是一個比較全面性的部分我們剛剛討論那些都是所謂犯罪樣態可能之前運用一般的程式或是一般的技術可以做到但是現在講的更超前的其實你是內行人不講外行話嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11672.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11694.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
人工智慧基本法其實是在於是說生成式AI未來的發展應用我們要怎麼樣有比較明確的方向那還有包括說生物特徵該不該收集以及包括說詐騙本席的立法精神有強調是說如果你用這種新的科技來去做詐騙行為的話應該要加強行者是我有看到你同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11695.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11706.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
我想我剛剛講的那幾個危害裡面這個方向如果提到如果說我用原本的詐騙但是我運用新的科技譬如說新生成式AI來去做詐騙包括過說 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11708.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11734.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
演造改變唐鳳部長看起來這個社會大家都認識我用唐鳳部長來推薦這個產品好棒棒那你加強刑責你同意嗎就是說剛剛提到的是說是不是在基本法裡加強刑責還是在個別法裡面這個有不同的意見但這個方向我當然同意好你同意吼那還有一個部分是未來人工智慧基本法到底主管機關是誰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11735.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11753.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
因為現在看起來是國科會在擬啊可是我們也知道國科會前身其實是科技部啊他等於是被降級之後他相對來講現在是一個比較幕僚單位那另外一個部分是速發部大家也對於速發部的期待其實是很高的所以人工智慧基本法也有人講是說照理講主管單位應該是由數位發 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11756.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11770.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
數位發展部來統籌、辦理甚至來領銜甚至來做後續的主管跟歸納你同意嗎?不過這個要看立法的技術像打造專法裡面網路廣告平台那一段可能就可以我們來負責所以不一定說整部法的主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11773.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11800.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
每一個專法裡面一定開宗明義第一個就講說本法主管機關為誰哪一個機關那現在有人的倡議會認為是說國科會他的明顯他的量能或他的組織架構他的預算規模是不足以含瓜面面方方尤其是人工智慧未來他到底會發展到多龐大沒有人知道但這牽涉到委員的這三個部分都放基本法還是有些在專法等等這個我們是不是書面來會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11801.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11819.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
所以如果說今天主管機關要由數位發展部這邊來主導你同意嗎?就在數位發展部的組織法相關的部分如果到最後基本法是跟這個是契合的因為本席會認為如果說與其是要我們真的要做真的不是打假的不是玩假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11819.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11835.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那就應該是要可長可久那數位發展部在過去成立的時候一年半之前大家覺得說挂牌很興奮因為對於數位內容發展以及未來的方向我們都很期待所以本席認為人工智慧基本法照理講應該製作管機關要由數法部來主導 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11837.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11852.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
你可以配合其他的業務來做其他的分類但是主管機關應該要放在數位發展部很謝謝委員的期許那我們會持續跟國科會討論那這件事情我們也會書面來我希望數位發展部能夠展現更積極的態度好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11854.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11867.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
委員發言完畢。現在請陳雪生委員陳雪生委員陳雪生委員不在。現在請陳冠廷委員發言。你好我們請部長。請部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11884.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11903.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
委員好部長好部長我今天有在相關的媒體報導然後有看到部長說境外勢力可以實質控制無論直接或間接境外敵對勢力都叫做危害國家之同安全產品那TikTok現在就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11904.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11928.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
違反產品根據這件事情其實我必須要邀請部長來擔任更多的這個角色怎麼說因為美國國會最近是以壓倒性的票數通過反中國共產黨社群媒體法案那要求TikTok母公司智捷跳動在6個月內必須要出售這款六門的影音分享平台不然就會面臨全面的禁令 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11928.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11946.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那我認為美國的國會之所以可以那麼的動作的迅速還有他們對此案的堅定性其實也是因為TikTok再次證明他們能夠透過這個字節跳動來去影響這個社群平台他在正式要 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11947.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11971.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
把這個法案通過之前TikTok有出來一個彈跳視窗要求這些美國的這些TikTok的使用者致電給他們的國會議員請國會議員們不要來去傷害TikTok所以我必須說這樣子的社群平台它本身就能夠擁有干預一國的內政的能力剛好展現他有地理定位的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11972.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
11990.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
對沒錯而且更令人擔憂的是其中許多致電給國會議員的人是未滿18歲的所以他們可以掌握你的年齡層他可以掌握你的地區性他也能夠掌握影響疑問的方式而不是透過公平的演算法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
11991.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12019.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以這樣讓美國國會發現TikTok可以在背後操縱的影響力這不是影響到美國國家安全而已其實整體上面國際上面使用TikTok的都可以被影響所以他們通過了這個法案我想請問部長那根據這個媒體的這個報導請問速發部是不是已經開始討論TikTok對國家安全可能構成的風險並且可不可以擔當更大的角色來去提供相關的法案做一些主導性 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12020.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12041.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
是,謝謝委員的吹詢從我們部成立而開始不管在資訊安全會報還是在相關的討論裡面其實這個題目確實是我們很認真的在處理因為以前的針對特定的產品或特定的廠牌或特定廠牌的註冊地點的這樣的管理方式其實非常容易規避的他換一個名字換一個廠商名稱註冊到 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12043.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12071.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
美國去或開曼群島去就規避掉了所以我們現在才是在新版的資安法裏面去確保一個情資通報系統可以通報說本來不是危害產品的他透過一次詬病就變成了危害產品他本來註冊在這裏的但是因為我們說他是危害產品他換了一個註冊地等等那即時的通知之後這個新的他只要是境外敵對勢力實質控制他就還是危害產品不管他換多少次名字或註冊地那這部分我們是在新版的資安法已經送到行政院裏面就是這樣子來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12072.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12097.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
所以它會是在治安法下面相關的這個法案就是關於危害產品的這個定義那當然目前是在公部門以及公部門場域禁止使用但是也跟委員報告我們送院版裡面也有包含各個目的事業主管機關指定特定非公務機關等等的這個部分看由這些目的事業主管機關來看說哪些危害產品的限制要使用在哪裡所以現在還是部長還是主要是針對公部門或者是公務機關目前新的治安法還沒有通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12098.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12125.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
未來的話一方面就是他會延伸到舉例來說向目的世界主管機關他自己所監督的那些特定非公務機關他就可以來說那他也要接這個危害情資的通報而且他也不能使用或用某種方式限制使用等於是說除了我們當然對於政府網路我們會管那兒少法當然中小學的網路會管之外其他的部分我們也授權各目的世界主管機關在他的特定非公務機關來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12127.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12145.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
謝謝部長可是我還是強調就是就我們看到美國的例子上那他不是只是針對美國的公務機關而已那他tiktok的影響也不是只針對美國的公務機關而已你看出來他是針對他是數這個一點多億的用戶那直接去影響所以他是直接危害到公共的這些利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12145.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12161.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12161.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12187.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
所以公部門、公司部門跟部門以外的一般民眾甚至是18歲以下的這些幼童全部都有相關性所以能不能請速發部或數位部能夠玩你一點全面性的草案至少是提供給我們報告給我們一個立法更完善的方向特別是在技術方面我們不是技術人才所以我們有辦法進入他的演算法然後針對他的演算法做出一些看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12188.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12212.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
更需要數位部能夠提供這樣的專業看法作為我們的立法的一個準則然後我們才會跟其他的立法委員如果數位部不主導的話那就是由國會議員來主導這樣我想在那個行政院院板草案的形成過程裡很謝謝委員提醒我們之前本來就跟教育單位等等這個都有討論那委員的意思是說這是全面性的啦不是不是只有教育或者相關的所以我想這部分我們會在院裡面政委在協調的時候我們會帶到這個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12214.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12243.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那以及等院版草案出來的時候要很詳細的跟各界說明這件事情。然後部長如果可以的話最後只請給我一個簡單的書面報告就是說針對美國的這一個答案跟你們認為怎麼樣的做法會比較好。好。因為這個。跟自然法相關的部分我們就請自然署來提供。好。謝謝。謝謝部長。謝謝。陳委員發言完畢。現在請蘇清泉委員。蘇清泉委員。蘇清泉委員不在。 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12244.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12247.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
現在請張祺凱委員發言。請部長。委員好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12276.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12303.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
你好你好你是IT的天才啦很多人很喜歡你可是你有沒有發現這次這個租金還有裝潢事情都犯了中路對不對我有開箱的影片因為委員說找一天嘛對對對我看你也開箱了那為什麼犯中路是不是因為用了很多人民的納稅錢部長你曉不曉得你的數位發展部每位員工辦公的空間跟面積行政院是有規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12305.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12333.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
你知道他們用多大的空間是有規定的嗎當然這個我們因為主要是素材署跟我們這個秘書處是不是請我們的穆雅來講行政院跟所屬各機關辦公廁所的空間跟面積規劃原則是不是你就直接來你看一下依照這個規劃原則不是只有事劃部所有行政院各機關每位員工個人跟公共空間可以用多大的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12334.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12349.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
二點四二平你上禮拜自己開箱又做了澄清文你們數位部每個員工用了多大空間新光大樓你先不要回答我幫你算了我幫你算了新光大樓數位部285個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12353.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12369.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
一個人用了5.8平這是幾倍?你在講天價豬為什麼會有這個那個部長為什麼會這麼嚴重人民為什麼這麼生氣因為你用了一般人2.5倍的空間對不對所以那天我很生氣問了主計長啊你怎麼會準啊不是就錢的問題啊你的空間為什麼要這麼大呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12377.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12380.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
欸可是裡面的會議室或公共空間你有把它分掉嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12380.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12382.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
對啊沒錯啊不是他這個是在講會員的…來來來莊家在這邊是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12386.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12406.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
這個是2.42平這個辦法裡面就明定是個人跟公共空間加起來2.42平嘛你為什麼用了5.8平這是所有人現在納稅人最生氣的地方你為什麼變成天價租屋部長我跟你講你如果是遵照這個行政院的規定你主人租兩層樓你現在租幾層 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12410.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12432.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
報告委員他所謂的那個公共空間的面積是有規定的是沒有錯那是個人那是8平方米8平方公尺那是屬於我算過了問了主計單位跟行政體系問了我們的預算中心了我從民國84年開始追天價租屋 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12433.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12461.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
二點四平這是非常明確的結果你們為什麼要去租這麼多這也是所有後來要浪費那麼多錢最大的原因報告委員那個八平方公尺是指個人的部分只有個人部分它不含稅宜室不含公共空間所以這個部分還有一個特殊空間所以加了公共空間嘛變成是二點四二平嘛這發現我時間有限這個二點四二並不是加公共空間進去那個部長部長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12462.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12484.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這是很明確的事情很明確的事情這所有的部會你回去問主席處他也是這樣跟你講那現在抱歉抱歉所以我本期做個很明確的決定好不好很明確的要求你回去能不能退掉一層樓您剛剛這個計算就已經是把會議是什麼都算在這個2.42裡但是剛剛我們幕僚已經說明不能這樣子計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12484.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12492.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
為什麼不能在 不是2.42就是個人空間叫公共空間包括你的洗手間什麼會議室都在裡面我們滿確定不是這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12495.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12514.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
這是明確規定的事情好我們事後再來再找專家來對質好不好這是第一個來來首先我們書面還可以如果部長如果依照這個規定你租三層就是一個問題了那如果確定是這樣子部長我們做個約定如果是這樣的話你們回去重新跟房東重新議約三層退掉一層可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12515.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12542.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
您這個辦公室面積我現在細看這個表它裡面寫的是機關人員類型按照類型的個人辦公室面積規範原則所以您剛剛說是把會議室算進來對加上會議室這上面並沒有這樣子寫這個單位是2.42坪好沒有關係我們就是找專家來確認然後第二個我們就做了一個很明確的約定如果是2.42坪包括你說的公共空間那你是不是三層樓你就要退掉一層這是一個第二個這是人民憤怒是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12543.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12558.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
你為什麼要找一個台北市第二高租金第二高的星光大樓去租這個地方叫帝后以前叫帝王欸你不是講說你在辦公的時候只用個筆上去就可以批改嗎只能按上去你在哪邊上班都不是很重要嗎你為什麼浪費人民納稅錢為什麼要租這麼貴的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12560.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12578.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
首先我們並沒有浪費人民納稅錢以台北市的商辦的每坪的租金來講我們租這個並沒有比較貴為什麼啊你知道行政院在新莊聯絡棒到了也有啊你可以像到新莊啊到新北市啊為什麼一定要租一個台北市而且為什麼在市中心為什麼一定要那麼貴的地方啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12579.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12603.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
一方面當然我們當初是有問國產署就是有沒有適合我們的地方稍微遠一點也沒有關係但是國產署是國產署是說好比現在行二行三要蓋可能未來可能要5年或6年左右所以我們這5、6年目前是按照國產署的要求我們來租這樣子一個辦公室但是當然如果他提早給我們別的地方可以用我們也可以提早去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12604.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12628.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
我們再看另外一個這幾天你自己在開箱嘛我們看一下裝潢好不好裝潢到底貴不貴裝潢會這麼貴的因兩個嘛一個就是你的空間太大所以你才會儲出一個什麼兩萬塊的你空間如果像我講的是小的你只有兩成的話當然單價就變高嘛第二個更離譜的是什麼你開箱完之後有人有不少專家資深的設計師的說我們這個天才啊唐鳳是不是也被詐騙了 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12630.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12642.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
你比照一下。你自己PO的穩喔。自己開箱喔。你的裝修前跟裝修後。你的燈具、空調、消防沒有隔間。這個不是都是一樣的嗎?會議室有隔間。我們沒有開箱到會議室的部分。所以你看。燈具裝修前本來就有燈啊。對不對。空調跟消防本來應該要有的嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12653.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12682.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我們包含桌上的這個燈具是下面的這個燈具所以你一直在強調說只有兩萬,我說兩個重點嘛第一點你如果空間沒這麼大就不應該是這個價格錢就省下來,幫人民到稅你就省下來對不對包括 裝潢費用包括租金都是可以省的包括你去租了一個最貴的地方你如果搬到例如說新莊別的地方租金低於平均稅幣不是最貴的地方現在在專家你開箱完之後專家出來跟你講如果燈具已經在那裡,裝修剪接你幫他碰嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12682.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12683.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
一年半後你又簽了一個新的六年對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12709.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12736.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
就是我想我應該這樣講本來國參署就沒有說我們在一年半之後一定可以去哪裡所以我們是先簽一年半然後等國參署的指示那國參署現在指示說我們到行政院旁邊行二行三等等那因為確實那個會需要蓋一段時間所以當然我們就續約對所以不管怎麼樣你就是一個中繼辦公室嘛現在人民在心疼的是什麼每一分錢都很重要有人就直接問啊如果是唐鳳唐部長自己的錢或你家裡的錢只是一個中繼辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12737.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12737.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
議員葛如鈞提供責任委員． |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12765.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12770.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
會議室等等空間到底要不要算在每人評數裡我想這個是主要爭點因為你後面的論點都是從這裡來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12794.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12818.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
你輸了三億嘛對不對一年要五千萬你如果少掉一成請蘇衛部跟張委員來做說明未來六年會後跟張委員應該已經開始了現在會後跟張委員來做說明我們是不是就依照為的才行OKOK好謝謝那我們就找我們等一下就坐下來把你這個規則弄清楚請問過專家把它弄清楚等一下跟委員來做說明然後你已經坐了開箱了 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12819.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12836.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
如果空間還是太大下禮拜我們就約個時間我找資深的這個設計師找裝潢的人裝潢工程師我們再開箱一次我們是不是先把您剛剛那個表格先釐清好不好您剛剛那個表格先釐清這個才是重點謝謝您不要再坐下來包括你的工作人員好謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12838.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12861.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
現在請徐新穎委員、徐新穎委員、徐新穎委員不在。現在請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。現在請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在。 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12862.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12886.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
現在請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。現在報告登記諮詢委員軍旅發言完畢。做以下決定。報告及詢答完畢。委員黃建豪所提書面諮詢列入記錄並刊登公報。 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12887.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12901.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請數位部盡速以書面答覆針對本日會議做以下決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12903.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12915.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
做以下決議針對本日會議做以下決議電子簽章法修正草案等二案均另擇期繼續審查本日議程處理完畢散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12937.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
12958.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具、「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人檢查委員葛如鈞等22人檢查委員葛如鈞等22人檢查委員葛如鈞等22人檢查委員葛如鈞等22人檢查委員葛如鈞等22人檢查委員葛如鈞等22人檢查委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
12963.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
12976.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具:「電子簽章法修正草案：一、審查委員葛如鈞等22 |