| video_url |
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| 委員名稱 |
鍾佳濱 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:05:48 - 11:21:14 |
| 影片長度 |
926 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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主席、在場委員、先進列席的政府機關署長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生先請內政部的馬次長還有中署長還有速發部的陳副署長那後面再請法務部的政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
26.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
那在開始之前謝謝我們昭偉還是要跟昭偉表達一下因為這次我們打詐當中署發部相當重要那我也知道以我們委員會的慣例大概非本委員會的部會的首長是不會來所以今天內政部次長來我可以接受但是署發部居然只是副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
47.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
那我也知道數位產業署目前是代理署長可是好像沒有邀請到數位部次長來有點可惜啦不然待會的質詢其實以副署長的位階恐怕不太好回覆那這點跟召委表達一下因為這個問題這麼重要那打詐不是只靠內政部的打詐專法也不是靠法務部而已還是要靠數發部啦好那我就下來開始我的質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
88.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
那麼我今天的質詢其實先從另外一個開始就是移工的管理要優先補足專勤人力另外打詐犯罪溯源要把洗環法應該把平台納管我們來先看一下請教次長你認為移工的管理是不是台灣的重要課題 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
89.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
107.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
馬次長非常重要你看嘛我們目前移工大概在跟犯罪的有兩個關聯一個是移工本身尤其失聯移工他可能是犯罪者下手的對象但是移工本身也可能是去加害其他移工的一個犯罪者你同意嗎完全同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
107.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
135.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那麼對於這些失聯的移工為什麼他很容易成為加害者跟被害者呢因為他失聯的意思是什麼他逃避主管機關的查緝對不對所以他就是進入了地下通訊也是會隊也是那請問你認為目前以你來評估我們移民署專勤對他的外勤查緝業務有多少可以透過AI來取代又有多少是醫療用有經驗的人才可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
136.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
157.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
跟委員報告,我們查緝業務幾乎都是要用人力所以沒有辦法用AI來取代除非是後台的資料分析是這樣,好署長你同意次長這樣認知嗎是,同意好,我們現在看好,但是呢我們也看到移民署啊你不是只有專勤隊、查緝這些四連移工你還包括說旅客的運量持續增要請國進大隊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
159.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
186.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
要來增加員額﹚包括我們在111年行政院合徵給你們桃園國際機場30個人有沒有你們這30個人都補足了嗎是這個是對 有沒有補足有給你員額不代表補足啊社長你要注意啊行政院對你們好但是有沒有補足我不知道後來呢因為在以後啊又給你們了你們又要求要怎麼樣直僱為什麼這次是直僱因為你們有量僱員要增加68個 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
188.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
210.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
市長,你知道這68個行政院後來有給嗎?總共齁,前面是給30個是兩年期的期限性的這個約顧人員那後面給的是30個是正式的對,就是我後面寫的嘛在今年的2月5號呢,又同意增加30個人是全數同意喔市長嘛,市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
211.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
239.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
行政院在很慷慨我現在請問跟次長這樣子表示行政院非常支持我們移民署的業務我現在問次長啦好那你來看一下但是次長我很可惜的我問我關心你們的第四代的通關系統為什麼因為全國的國際主要機場他在通關的人力的人證驗證人別驗證大量使用我們數位化的智能的機器來取代當時問了副組長在今年3月的時候有沒有加強自動通關 有 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
240.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
264.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
後來呢我問到了自動通關進入怎麼樣?內政部呢?市長你知道目前第4代自動通關及GATE進入如何?委員報告我們目前已經完成43座的建設好43座那多久能夠全部建設完成?明年底之前好那建設完成之後你們現在的壓力人力壓力需求又減低了嗎?有了自動通關是不是你們人力壓力就減低了? |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
266.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
291.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我跟委員報告齁這個壓力的來源最主要是在108年疫情之下我現在不是問你108年我說你自動化之後這些通關的機器設備給你的如果壓力這麼減輕我們行政院幹嘛花這筆錢是嘛要減輕嘛所以我要告訴你啦市長你看一下我們在2021年有66萬個移工到現在呢有75萬個但是我們專勤隊的人力啊還減少多少還減少29個啊還減少19個啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
295.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
308.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你覺得專心的人力市長你覺得這樣夠嗎大量不足大量不足好那我現在告訴你要做個決斷因為行政院不是生產老公公你們要多少就有多少現在已經給移民署增加了60個了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
310.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
333.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
現在呢 我要向你們 你回去要檢討一下如果說你們的自動通關已經減輕了國境的驗證 集合人力的壓力給你的這60個元額 要設法去補強我們移民署專勤隊現場集合 外勤集合沒辦法用AI 沒辦法用人工智慧取代的 你同意嗎報告委員我們同意 我們回去會檢討的OK了 謝謝 署長請回我們請看下一頁好 現在我們來講詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
338.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
367.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
不只用點數詐騙洗錢還有未成年的性剝削我們看到了有什麼呢我再舉例給你看那個數位部、數法署副署長請上來直播頻道的點數要怎樣要有一定的金額的消費才能外出見面還有遊戲點數用未成年來洗錢未成年他受到兒少的保護還有用虛擬的點數要進行一個性影像的滿足來部長、次長請你看一下這個現在因為我前面問過你下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
368.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
385.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
其實違法的金流他用遊戲點數來移轉的問題出在哪裡我們的點數上要KYC他對誰KYC被害者就是付錢的人他可以買點數另外違法交易的他知道我這個不行我在創意私房我要去交易 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
386.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
409.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
被害者我們稱之為他覺得他做的是合法的事情他買合法的點數違法交易的人他知道他做的這個事情不能讓人家知道他去買遊戲點數點數上都知道但是進入了直播平台進入了創意四方的網路平台犯罪分子他用人頭去跟他做接收你覺得KYCK得到嗎K不到嘛然後遊戲點數上能知道點數轉移給誰嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
417.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
433.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
市長是不是這樣子報告委員這個都轉到境外去了對好所以怎麼辦呢我們看一下有沒有機制可以不按眼我們往下看我問了速發部我在今年10月的時候交通委員會問了部長他說點數在平台上沒有辦法追蹤的交易用的他沒有辦法用交易的洗房法納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
434.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
459.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
沒有辦法追蹤,我們用洗防法納管,速發部支持嗎?部長說支持啊!副署長,副署長,你們是產發署嗎?素產署啦!素產署啦!你們部長支持用洗防法納管平台來對於這些無法追蹤的交易的點數結果呢,你們給我的答案是什麼?在現有的網路平台進行點數交易,現有的機制就可以處理了,不需洗防法納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
461.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
489.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
你們可以要求據點數交易的網路平台及直播平台確實執行KYC來防止詐騙洗錢跟未成年的性剝削嗎?你們做得到嗎?我們會努力會努力就是做不到 次長這個洗髮法當中的這個查緝、犯罪防治是不是你們在管的?你們這個法令有沒有給書發部去管這些詐騙的金流?有沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
491.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
501.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
報告報委員洗防法是法務部主管不是我不說洗防法啦我是說的詐欺犯罪危害條例啦是是你們管的嘛你可能還不曉得要怎麼去處理我給你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
502.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
530.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
第三方支付輪為博弈的網站詐騙集團的幫兇怎麼說呢?水房用人頭公司用假文件匯換合法交易去交易但是我們這些都用第三方交易但是第三方的支付服務有一個量能登錄對不對?速發部是不是這樣子?那根據你們訂的第三方支付服務業防治洗錢及打擊滋恐辦法有沒有辦法找到讓他們把這個監理上的動作堵起來?有了嗎?為什麼還是可以? |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
533.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
555.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個部分如果說有監管上面的問題其實我們就是一直希望它能夠盡量的不會有所以我們其實有做了很多的行政檢查然後行政調查然後目前也是鼓勵三職業者就是成立工會我們要做一個就是公私聯防的部分來啦次長我覺得你需要警政署的幫忙黃署長請過來幫次長往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
558.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
576.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
數法部說第三方支付是屬於類特許行業次長你知道什麼叫類特許行業嗎報告委員這個不了解好我們來告訴你什麼叫類特許行業第三方支付是類特許行業特許行業就是金管會管的那麼因此在我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
578.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
599.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
詐欺犯罪危害防治條例在今年的7月公布後我們就授權了那麼他這裡面規定呢只要這些人員 第三分之二人員沒有向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗房防治洗錢防治服務量能登記就不得提供第三分之五請問這個所謂的中央目的事業主管機關是哪一個你知道嗎 次長你知道嗎報告委員這個部分應該是在金管會速發部回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
607.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
628.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
第三方支付是訴發部：對：對啊所以到現在行政院、內政部、訴發部跟金管會還在搞不清楚所以呢訴發部有預告了喔第三方支付服務業疑似涉詐客戶的認定及控管的處理辦法草案有沒有訴發部有沒有是告訴你們的副署長有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
629.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
645.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們其實非常的感謝就是有這個打詐四法因為有賦予我們任務就是我們會針對這個打詐四法裡面其中一個兩個法案然後針對第三方的部分我們有一些執法訂定那母法是不是升內政部管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
646.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
673.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
母法是內政部給的?是你嘛 次長一直很用力點頭嘛是是是他們給你的權利嘛你有沒有用來 次長你看一下怎麼用這是目前速發部訂出來的草案第4條 德第5條 德第6條 德7、8、9都是德德德德德次長 就你所知道如果你的母法給他授權了他執法寫德是什麼意思也可以不做啊有沒有強制力 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
674.676 |
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695.436 |
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次長你覺得這樣的執法有沒有強制力報委員這個我們回去跟書發部確認一下當然這不是你的業管範疇啦書發部可不可以告訴我們的次長內政部這麼的支持授權他的署管法給你們你們會不會是得得得來協助一下委員好吼有關於你們今天沒有次長來你們很吃虧啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
696.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
716.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
報告委員 因為我們關於這些執法現在預告的部分德的部分有一些部分是因為我們的打詐專法裡面母法裡面就已經是寫德了喔 說得好 講到重點了 次長有沒有聽到你們的打詐專法、三位法的授權是用德 我們趕快要看來看一下專法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
717.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
740.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第34條第三方置戶業者對於客戶應善盡注意義務應強化確認客戶身份並得對於客戶採取機遇的審查延後撥款拒絕建立業務關係或者提供服務的措施次長有沒有發現問題了你很支持蘇花部他們怎麼能定得因為母法就是得啊怎麼辦剛公佈的喔7月底剛公佈的喔怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
746.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
769.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這個部分我們跟訴法部設法來強化他的執行來 那個法務部長要請你來了35條啊 要怎麼辦呢他說第一項 他這個35條講的由數位經濟相關產業主管機關這應該就是訴法署或者訴法部及法務主管機關共商去定之啊部長 你覺得這個法務主管機關是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
773.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
788.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們會持續跟訴發部來就第三份質問所以我因為要做結論了啦其實因為上位法的制定行政院很積極我們立法院也很努力的去審議很短的時間的通過但是通過之後發現有沒有不足部長有沒有不足有不足嘛社長你們這個法要不要繼續的精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
797.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
802.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你點頭要嘛是不是好對著麥克風說我們內政部要繼續精進詐欺犯罪危害防治條例是不是這樣要不要精進要精進嘛那法務部部長、政部長35條這裡面你們有責任嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
813.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
841.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們會協助那個那個數發部跟那個內政部來處理所以如果因為上位法的制定起前述的處理辦法能夠有能不能有有效的管理這張置物業呢如果不行要怎麼調適要怎麼調適所以今天我們今天在這裡關心打詐司法通過了法過了不就是沒事了法上面還有一些不足的地方實務上我們數發部做不到嘛他只能得嘛因為上位法只有得嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
843.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
867.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
法務部要不要幫助數位發展部趕快來研擬怎麼補漏好不好這個我們來協助次長這樣知道原因了沒有法是你主管的你們內政部主管的用是誰在用數位發展部要去做事前的一些規管然後我們的內政部、警政署才有辦法當犯罪發生的時候循線從網路平台他的洗錢去追蹤金流才有辦法抓到啊是不是這樣子好最後的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
869.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
890.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
請研議防止透過據點數交易的數位網路平台及直播平台進行詐騙、洗錢或者是未成年的性剝削的方案。」那這個要幾個單位來弄?內政部主導好不好?內政部可不可以?可以嗎?那法務部跟司法部一起加入可不可以?一個月呢可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
892.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
919.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
都點頭都可以齁副署長回去告訴你們的部長我問過他在交通委員會承諾我你們底下的人說不用你們回去到底是誰聽誰的回去檢討一下今天次長沒有來我不曉得到底是部長被蒙蔽了還是我們底下的執行機關認為無所謂這個要是發生在法務部政部長就慘了發生在內政部我們劉部長就辛苦了所以我希望這個事情書發部要好好的跟內政部跟法務部來配合可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
920.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
923.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好 可以了 謝謝我們部長、次長跟副署長 謝謝大家 |
| IVOD_ID |
157313 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157313 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-36-15 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-21T11:05:48+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-21T11:21:14+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |