| IVOD_ID |
15727 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15727 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-6 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
6 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-14T08:31:33+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-14T12:38:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:06:27 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d6d0b2a5b2cc6652c6ddb8aeea0ab2b9a3be8d109af184be4bb61efd8e2cd048e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:33 - 12:38:00 |
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1709.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1711.699 |
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報告委員會出席委員8人以足法定人數。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1720.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1741.008 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議一事錄時間中華民國113年3月13日星期三上午9時6分至11時6分地點紅樓301會議室出席委員徐巧欣等9人夜席委員羅志強等17人請教委員洪生翰、林益君 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1741.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1763.579 |
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．列席人員．務委員會委員長許家青及所屬人員．主席馬周吉委員文君．報告是想依宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定．而邀請．務委員會委員長許家青報告業務概況．並備質詢．務委員會委員長許家青報告．委員許巧欣等9人質詢．均由．務委員會委員長許家青提起答覆． |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1764.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1788.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
決定已登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及巡打結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆會要求提供之資訊請求委員會與二周年已書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限者從其所定三委員陳永康、洪森翰、林益君及王定宇等事人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1792.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1819.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請問在場委員對於上次會議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或有需要更正之處?如果沒有,我們議事錄確定。請議事人員宣讀報告事項。報告事項,邀請國防部部長邱國正報告．面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為．併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席．並備質詢。宣讀完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1823.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1829.888 |
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我們現在介紹在場委員首先介紹陳永康委員黃仁委員沈博洋委員今天介紹今天列席的官員首先介紹我們國防部邱國正、邱部長副參謀總長執行官鄭榮峰 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1853.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1858.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
曾上將、曹次長、楊基榮楊次長、全民防衛動員署﹐白潔龍白署長、總督察長是李肇民總督察長、中共辦公室廖建新主任、政治作戰局陳玉林局長﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1883.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1912.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
軍備局．林文祥局長．主計局．謝祺賢．謝局長．抱歉軍醫局．蔡建松．蔡局長．戰略規劃司．李士強．李司長支援規劃司．鄧克雄．鄧司長法律事務司．沈世維．沈司長整合評估司．苗慧芬．苗司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1914.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1924.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
國防採購是趙雅萍、趙主任人事參謀次長是劉佩智、劉次長情報參謀次長是顏有賢、顏次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是陳文新、陳次長後勤參謀次長是陳道輝、陳次長通信電子資訊參謀次長是盧建忠、盧次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1941.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1950.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
訓練參謀次長是章次長陸軍司令部陳建義陳參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮邱參謀長空軍司令部曹敬平曹參謀長後備指揮部薛淵權薛參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1971.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1974.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
憲兵指揮部 呂政芳 呂參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部 劉清勳 劉參謀長直通電軍指揮部 陳俊良 陳參謀長軍事情報局第一處鄧敦仁 鄧處長電訊發展室 萬鴻森 萬副主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1999.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2005.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
國家中山科學院研究院院長張忠誠、張院長國家安全局柯承亨、柯副局長海洋委員會副主任委員兼海巡署署長周梅武、周副主委海域安全處黃宣凱、黃處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2031.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2049.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
海巡署巡防組 廖雲紅 廖組長海巡署情報組 黃錫章 黃組長海巡署督察組 謝慶欽 謝組長海巡署中部分署 王正信 王分署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2053.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2061.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
本日會議邀請國防部邱國正部長報告．面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為．並備質詢．請國防部邱部長上臺報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2080.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2095.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
主席、各位委員先進今天應邀到大院委員會來做一個專題的報告承蒙各位委員平常對國軍因應中共常態化對我的侵擾強化我們戰力整備跟應處作為的關切跟指導在此表達誠實的謝意 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2097.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2115.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們國軍秉持著不引發事端、不升高衝突的原則﹐面對中共軍事的威脅與灰色地帶侵擾﹐始終維持嚴密的聯合情建政作為﹐精確掌握周邊的海空情的動態﹐然後縝密地應處共軍軍事的威懾與任職作戰﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2117.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2135.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們國軍也會持續努力與戰訓本務．強化戰備準備．針對中共常態化的侵擾．這些行為來審慎的以對．以維護我們國家的安全．建議接續由我們國防部做計事次長．陳文勛中將面對這個專題．面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅的影響．與應處作為．作為一個專題報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2147.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2152.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為 專案報告報告單位 國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2155.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2178.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
一、前言中共在2022年20大政治報告中指出為爭取統一不放棄對台使用武力迄今對我文攻武嚇從未尖端更以常態化灰色地帶侵擾並用認知作戰打擊與混淆國際視聽緝毒片面改變台海現狀升高區域衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2179.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2188.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
對我國防形成嚴峻挑戰．國軍除持續陸力戰訓本務．強化戰備準備．並實時嚴密掌握共軍動態．審慎應對．維護我領空、領海安全及捍衛主權完整．二中共軍事威脅威懾太陽． |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2200.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2225.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
中共自民國111年8月﹐對台從事聯合軍事行動後﹐將海峽中線模糊化﹐縱觀近3年已建立常態化、週期性﹐各項對台威懾模式﹐此將近期共軍活動態樣分析如下﹐一、常態性活動﹐派遣機艦於臺灣周邊海空域執行空中監偵﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2226.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2245.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
戰備警巡及電子勤搜等任務．並不定期漁業海峽中心．進入我應變區海空域．從事應對外籍基建．勤搜我軍事演訓與武器參數活動．二,灰色地帶侵擾．運用海警船、民兵機魚船進入臺灣本島． |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2247.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2272.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
及金馬外島等周邊海域另以小型無人機侵入外離島限制空域實施侵搜或施放碳空氣球飛越台灣上空。聯合戰備警巡中共現已採週期性派遣基建逾越海峽中線﹐企圖透過軍事行動淡化海峽中線存在壓縮國軍應處與訓練的空間。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2276.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2302.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
計劃性聯訓公軍依年度訓練期程執行海空聯訓、遠海長航聯合登陸及飛彈試射等演訓活動除派遣各型主輔戰機、無人機及海軍艦船進出第一島鏈從事區域拒止、抗擊外軍等演練外令結合火箭軍、陸軍援火部隊驗證聯合作戰能力5.針對性軍演 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2306.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2322.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
共軍建美對我軍售有盟國家官員訪台及國際發表友台言論等時機,派遣基建進入台海周邊區域,遂行針對性聯合軍事行動以表達不滿及對我軍事威懾 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2325.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2343.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
國軍應處作為．國軍秉持備戰不求戰．應戰不必戰的指導．持續強化戰備整備．積極應處共軍．各種侵擾行動及軍事威懾．確保我領土安全及區域穩定．面對中共常態化灰色地帶侵擾．國軍具體應處作為．報告如後聯合情監偵 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2349.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2368.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我軍結合三軍戰備徵詢任務,適切部署海空徵收系統及載航基建﹐擴大掌握當面敵海空及火箭軍動態﹐並持續整合雷結型與影像情報﹐及透過國際情勢交換及找獲知敵情威脅﹐爭取早期預警及時應處。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2374.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2401.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
海空侵擾預應 國號1依經常戰備時期突發狀況處置規定．對漁業海峽中線進入我海空應變區域．是共軍基建實施廣播警告．並派遣海空兵力並航監控攔截驅離．及提升陸基防空．安置反艦飛彈帶射姿態．應處共軍威脅 國號2外島防區若掌握低空目標接近． |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2402.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2426.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
除即以突發狀況處置規定執行應處外．並同時通報工作部實施廣播驅離。無人機反制中共運用無人機侵擾我外島防區．國軍並遇突發狀況立即相互通報．整體反應事變要領採取識別監控告警通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2427.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2444.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
防衛設計、安全示警等程序應處。國防部外離島地區現已部署干擾槍﹐後續將配發遠距反制系統﹐以應對敵小型無人機侵擾或反制、滴空、載具進行。 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2446.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2467.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
支援海巡海域執法現行外導禁止限制水域執法任務由海巡署負責．國軍已不直接介入支援者保持監控若海巡署提出支援需求．由建制部派遣適切兵力應援戰備徵詢建於共軍基建平面漁業海峽中線．國軍為展現堅決維護領空、領海主權立場． |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2474.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2490.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
並強化緊急應變區域聯防機制．執行三軍戰備部隊徵詢作法如下。公告五一空中聯合戰鬥巡邏與訓練區域派遣空中兵力沿海峽中線及防空識別區域．結合訓練實施戰鬥巡邏．並由海軍徵詢艦及陸機防空飛彈全程掩護。公告五二 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2498.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2515.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
海上聯合徵詢與海峽中線及臺灣周邊海域．結合訓練執行海上區域徵詢．並由空中戰機、陸基防空飛彈．安置反艦飛彈及海巡艦艇掩護。關武山地面部隊戰備徵詢． |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2518.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2527.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
地面戰備部隊結合地境責任區域．對重要軍事防護目標及關鍵基礎設施．實施戰備徵詢．強化區域聯防機制．提升應變制變．防恐應援戰力整備．設計想定狀況．常態化訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2539.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2561.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
針對共軍各種灰色地帶侵擾．國軍處案程序妥善應處外．並依共軍可能軍事行動．設計空中、海上及外離島．各類響鈴狀況．納入各部隊戰備訓練項目．保持常態演練．以提升部隊應變處置能力．七、作戰計劃演練．三軍部隊結合． |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2565.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2585.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
漢光演習、機訓測考及各類演訓時機與作戰現地實施應急作戰．戰力保存、整體防空、聯合截擊．國土防衛及戰力整補等防衛作戰演練．使官兵了解作戰計畫．熟悉戰場環境並落實戰場經營。反制敵意認知作戰關乎一．對於中共認知作戰及未假訊息之滲透． |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2594.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2618.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
由本部聯合專案編組快速反應事變．除主動鑄收爭議訊息之外．更運用軍文社、青年日報與漢森電台等專業能量．透過正向文宣策略與傳閃．鞏固國人及官兵心理防線。．國防部2針對各項錯假訊息建立反制認知作戰應處機制． |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2621.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2640.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
依追根溯源、查證、損害評估與澄清等方式反制．杜絕不實資訊擴散．四、結語．面對中共與台海周邊所實施之軍事威懾．灰色地帶侵擾及對我認知作戰等威脅．國軍將持續依敵情威脅．涉及各種軍事侵擾之響鈴狀況． |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2645.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2654.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
並藉嚴格訓練方式強化各項戰備作為．鞏固三軍部隊防衛戰力．確保國家安全報告完畢 敬請遲到 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2661.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2690.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我們現在開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘非本會委員8分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如果有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理在這裡也特別宣告邱國正部長12點起請假因為在12點以後要副總統府參加專案會議所以由副部長薄鴻輝代理 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2691.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2717.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們現在請黃仁黃委員上台質詢有請邱部長請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2728.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2732.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
本席非常嚴肅地來表達本人的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2735.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2755.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
對於國防的整經、背經、建造本席非常的支持但是昨天自由時報特別報導了臺東關山有關於開闢建造戰備跑道然後經過地方的縣長、首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2759.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2768.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
關山政工所裡面下午3點半來研討這個開闢建造戰備跑道的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2770.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2788.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
因為在國防部的計畫拓展後的臺九縣關山路段新建站面跑道軍方3月12號下午3點關山證供所的地方說明會前農民高喊著是時守護田地 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2790.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2810.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
貝偉的要求也是農民的要求在當地有非常多居民還有部落原住民的原基地所以當時縣長姚慶林及黃建斌立法委員也歷臨在領聽我們空軍參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2815.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2824.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所陳述如何建造的戰略跑動那這邊特別特別要表達的是對於我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2831.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2859.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
臺九縣關山路段興建正面跑道是一個包裹裡的糖衣毒藥為什麼?待會兒我來做解釋那我想說聽聽你們的有關於關山路段興建正面跑道的興建計畫還有這個先前的一個溝通有什麼樣的方案請你說明一下所以我跟委員報告首先很感謝委員對建新備戰一個支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2861.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2881.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
第二個我要表達這樣,國軍在這幾年來不管建軍備戰工作,一定會考量到地方建設或都會的發展。我舉一個很簡單的例子,早就有很多近線界的地方,不管山域要岸,我們一點點放出去,原因是來配合地方做一個毒色改善,事實上軍民是聯合在一道的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2882.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2900.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
第三我要表達這一回這條道路我記得前一陣子我也跟某一些同仁講過因為有道路所以我們評估在這個道路如果直或者寬度夠我們就建議在這上面有一段是戰備跑道並非要建戰備跑道 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2901.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2915.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
做一條公路首先要做說明在空軍也積極在跟地方政府協調當中地方的要求、訴求我們也很清楚我想這都可以談如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2916.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2918.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我想請教國防部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2935.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2948.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
空軍當時如果有這樣的一個計畫先前的應該要以部落會議作為諮商因為在原基法的規定裡面在原基法的第21條那 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2951.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2976.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我們21條裡面特別就是有關於開發或者是地方的建設必須要經過部落會議但是你們在規劃這個案子的時候完全還沒有經過部落會議包含居民的一個建議諮商所以你們有這樣的規劃是不是浪費了公帑然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2977.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3003.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
你再做一個說明到當地說明我覺得這樣是浪費時間因為不要以人民對立我想我的本身立場我非常贊同任何我們國防戰備或是整備的任何前瞻的計畫我非常的希望有一個建設那另外就是說我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3004.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3032.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
本席希望國防部能重新的考量檢討符合建金戰備的需求又能兼顧地方發展的配套方案請國防部長及交通部能夠再交換意見再找到一個折衷的方案然後派錢到本席辦公室來研究這個方案好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3032.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3052.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
跟委員再次感謝對這個支持所以本席在這個地方特別反對我代表臺東的居民來表達跟國防部長表達反對建造在關山的戰備跑道一案那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3053.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3068.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
特別要講的是我要把這個議題延伸到我們臺東的治航基地那這個治航基地的問題在於背後裡面的原住民的議題所以在我看 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3069.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3089.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我們臺東空軍自航基地﹐該地在以臺灣日記時代的時候﹐並無任何機場的設置﹐而當時臺灣總督府方﹐方便嚴定計劃將自航基地﹐所在區域利用炸藥挖空﹐建立大型的商港﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3089.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3110.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以後來因為太平洋的戰事爆發而作廢那1960年代時任中華民國總統蔣中正有建議台灣所處在於國際戰略地位的重要性並在對大陸地區的作戰態勢所以因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3112.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3126.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
臺海的海峽貴於宅小．西部各重要的軍事基地．完全暴露在當時中國人民解放軍．雷打軍事之下．讓各項空軍戰術行動亦失去． |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3129.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3157.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
所以十分不利於空軍戰力的保存那當時我們中華民國的國軍、空軍的主力戰機部署在西部所以西部的第七的飛行因空役戰機過多容易飛行限定上產生不利所以才選擇了臺東我們國防部才選擇了臺灣臺東第七行走第四平潭可作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3159.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3171.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
軍用的區域經過多次的會刊國防部決定在原日記時代臺東商港興建了現今的臺東的自航基地當時這個自航基地就在1969年 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3179.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3207.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
以神醫計劃作戰計劃代號為開始規劃新的基地戰備計劃．空心在於工程1970年至動工．然後在1971年8月16日完工啟用．蔣中正親自基地命名為自航．所以當時在建蓋這個自航基地的時候．但沒有原基法 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3208.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3227.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
沒有延期法但是有一個部落原住民的部落叫嘉陸蘭部落嘉陸蘭部落就在你們的前方前方那個部落當時你們在建蓋那個時候因為戰備的需求而且情勢的緊張 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3228.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3257.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
所以當時就是建蓋在那個地方以替代把空軍的戰略能夠移到東部移到東部可是沒有想到那個地方的部落裡面產生了什麼噪音生活品質差然後加上空氣的污染造成了地方的這些反彈有很多次在這個地方抗議了很多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3258.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3277.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
但是我們國防部並沒有任何的回應20年前只贊助噪音20年前贊助了冷氣然後20年後聽說去年才補助一台冷氣所以如果按照我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3278.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3284.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
平東花蓮有關於軍用軍事基地的話一級450塊二級500塊23級600塊但能不能引用在 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3295.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3295.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
部長也回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3315.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3331.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
跟委員報告,委員對這個整個事情來龍去脈,真的很清楚,我也很敬佩,就是一定有當時的原因跟環境背景,那這樣很多事情造成了以後,我也很遺憾,就打著機場或者是道路來講,我們之前可能沒有做很好協調,我不知道, |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3332.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3360.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
但我們有句話,亡羊補牢未完也像剛才委員提到,不管戰備跑到,就要再去協調還有這個基地如何來補償據我了解,我們的噪音補償辦法都跟地方政府有協議當初臺東這地方,劃歸也好,第一期已經補償完畢第二期正在做當中那這個當中也有一個協議講說要等到第二期補償完畢以後再把新的辦法放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3361.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3381.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那這個當中能不能轉折我想同樣的可以經過一個溝通協調嘛我們空軍願意在這一方面啊很用力很努力的盡快的派員到我的辦公室來研究好不好因為這個經過了多少年一直沒有辦法處理可以處理的因為現在來講好我們台中嘉義台南 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3382.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3404.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
岡山、台東等機場則是以噪音的補助所以如果按照等級加入欄應該理應本來就應該要補助的然後甚至水電費用因為本席認為有查到是噪音區內的有很多的老房子無稅級用地下水向零機接電 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3405.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3406.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3424.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3441.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
在認定這個相關的補助的噪音的時候是從寬認定但是國防部在一百年接手之後是重演審查我說這樣的話是完全脫離了民意、罔顧人民啊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3443.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3469.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我跟委員真的很抱歉但我要說明一點我們一切都改變與否要有一個程序一定要合法像剛剛委員講的軍方為什麼那麼強硬它不強硬因為法規因為我們以前也做很多與法外做商量可是出了問題以後軍方要背負責任而這個責任講起來蠻冤枉因為到了不管成敗人或到主管要受到責備或處分這個我們於心不忍 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3470.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3470.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
接下來請沈博洋委員上台發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3501.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3505.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那謝謝主席那有請邱部長謝謝請邱部長蘇委員好邱部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3521.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3538.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
好,那因為今天的主題是灰色地帶作戰那也十分的尷尬因為從上禮拜到現在也一直都在質詢跟灰色地帶作戰相關的內容沒有想到今天又再一次那不過呢我先從這張圖開始這張圖是2015年非常早期的一個灰色地帶作戰這個所謂的一個論文的圖形 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3540.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3556.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
在這邊有兩點我覺得是值得重視的就是第一個他在左邊認為說一些比較典型的一些政治上或者外交上等等的施壓否定的經濟或者大家常講的認知作戰在左邊那真正的已經到這個比較高度的軍事衝突是在右邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3557.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3577.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以這就剛好也呼應了在這個質詢的那一天我們有提到就是說其實很多事情它都是一個層次的問題它在一個光譜上面所以我們在那一天有討論到這一個所謂輿論戰也就是認知作戰的定義那部長那天也有提到稍微其中的一個標準當然在此也要呼籲很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3578.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3599.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這個媒體其實聽完部長的回答之後也都講到說都認為輿論戰這個認定尤其是在地協力者的部分是一件非常困難的事情這只有特定的幾家媒體故意用誤導性的標題說只有一個標準就是說只要是對我方不利敵軍有利的那就可以落入到這一個範疇所以有些報紙更是坐實的更是自己在向在地協力者這邊還是要再度聲明 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3602.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3630.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
二、我覺得這個圖一直有一個誤區所以想要跟部長討論跟請教的地方就是在這裡就是說我們以往都會認為一些政治的衝突它是一些比較低度的一些經濟的衝突是比較低度的但是如果到軍事的是比較高度的所以以往我們會有一個想法就是說如果能夠在政治這邊在外交上面都夠解決的話那軍事上面應該就比較不會是一個很大的問題但是我們看到這個比較新的譬如說在2022 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3634.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3658.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
在2022這是蘭德的一個報告那他們在講這個所謂灰色地帶衝突的時候呢把灰色地帶衝突分成軍事的還有cyber的這個網路的然後還有經濟的然後還有這個所謂的政治的那他並不是一個陳生的圖形他在做這些數量上的比較的時候呢說台灣目前是對這個中國灰色侵擾呢看起來是被害最嚴重的一個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3659.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3681.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
因為我們簡單的一個例子比如說今天不管是軍事還是網路不太會因為說今天網路比較多軍事變得比較少或者軍事比較多網路比較少所以在政治也有可能變成說政治跟軍事變成是平行的兩條線那因為在過往部長在針對這個題目有一些發言的時候有說軍事是政治的衍生一個非常有名的句子 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3682.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3707.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那說政治上有一個共識就比較不會有這個軍事逾越的行為發生那但是以現在灰色地帶的狀況來講它反而是有一點故意要讓我們認為政治上有共識的話軍事就比較不會爆發戰爭那所以呢反而在灰色地帶作戰的時候呢它已經不是一個兩極化的一個光譜的一個圖形而是一個像是圓圈一樣它會讓我們覺得政治跟軍事本來是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3708.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3717.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
兩邊的事情但它其實是同一件事情所以不知道部長對於現在這個政治跟軍事之間的關係有沒有一些比較新的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3717.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3737.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
委員講得很好,這些話我曾經講過,軍事政策延長,這不容否認。另外,用兵施法上兵伐謀,然後伐交,然後伐兵,這也是一個名言,也是一個定理。現在就是一個環境的變遷,很多東西混在一道。所以我記得委員那天第一個就認知作戰的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3738.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3739.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3763.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3777.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
警慎的慎,我一直在強調慎戰,不是神聖的慎。警慎,我想不管是領導者或各方的領導人,他都應該要有這種智慧,要去考量要不要發起這個。 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3778.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3801.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
他怎麼做,方法很多。他說做好很多,也可以引導我們,有個應對的方法,也會變多。但最後的終結,就看兩邊的領導人員或上層的,或有政治考量的人物,他能把它分辨,這一段跟那一段,這一碼跟那一碼是不一樣的,不能把它攪在一道。他要攪在一道,我們要把它分開。這就是我們的能耐。 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3802.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3827.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
謝謝部長那部長提到一個非常重要的關鍵就是他的方法真的非常的多元就是說不管先是政治的還是經濟的其實都包含在這一個灰色衝突裡面所以這也是我們在禮拜二的時候也有提到就是說其實需要更多更部會的大家一起來觀察就是他灰色地帶作戰的一個侵擾那所以呢這一個以往的我們很容易就覺得說這個政治一旦穩定之後呢這個軍事是比較不容易發生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3828.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3848.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那這個烏克蘭的議員因為我去年在烏克蘭也有見到這位議員那他也有來台灣他有提到說引起和平協議的結局就是大屠殺他話是講得比較重那因為畢竟他們是在發生戰爭的一個國家那簡單來講他是認為說如果今天我們在政治上跟對方已經有和平的一個協議那這個時候會讓別人覺得我們正在退縮 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3851.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3876.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那在我們退縮的同時呢按照毛澤東的講法呢反而是對方可以進攻更厲害的時候如果說我們在島內更多人想要投降的時候反而是他進攻的最佳時機所以這個就讓我想到因為昨天剛好國台辦開了記者會然後就有一個這個官方的這個記者就問了這句話說說我們的部長提到說我們現在在敵情強化訓練然後就說您是在這個以武謀獨但我相信這個部長應該不同意這句話吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3878.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3907.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
因為我不知道他怎麼講的這個也是認知作戰一環他藉由這個有這個題目出來他盡量發揮我坦白講大家在做什麼各自行他的本務工作什麼以武謀獨我們都沒有參與討論我只知道國軍建軍備戰保衛國家安全是我們主要的任務所以我們為了要完成這個任務平常要強化我們的建軍備戰這就是我的觀念我沒有任何對他的講法我有什麼評論 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3908.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3909.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
感謝部長遵守言論紀律 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3924.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3939.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
其實呢在這個灰色地帶衝突當中很多時候就是不要掉入對方的陷阱那這個呢但是這個例子呢就是讓我們知道了一件事情就是不管我們做什麼事情其實有時候呢到底我們到底在我們的定調是什麼跟我們自己怎麼想 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3940.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3959.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
其實中國完全沒有在理會我們就他會自己去定調我們的行為然後自己再去說根據我們的行為他要做出什麼樣的反制那這也會導致這次在海巡事件裡面即使我們遵守了這些規章我們也遵守了國際法但他只要一句話說我們不遵守他就會製造這些部長所謂的新常態 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3960.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3976.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
這個新常態的建立看起來是越來越多元那這個也是在我記得是在上個禮拜的時候也有跟部長提到就是還是很希望我們灰色地帶的定義跟機制是能夠快一點出來就是說我們能夠快速的讓國人知道我們什麼時候才叫做這一個灰色地帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3977.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4005.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那這個我一直都認為因為這個我們的陳永康上將一直有提到這個ROE那這個ROE呢因為也是他的專長這邊我就不智慧了那一直以來呢我們作為ROE的一些規則裡面譬如說這邊有這個美國的這個Standing的ROE或者北越的ROE還有這一個那個Ceremon的這個Handbook的ROE那我自己有稍微翻閱了一下我個人是認為紅色的這一個是一個蠻不錯的一個可以參照的準則但是我今天有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4005.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4020.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
陳上將有帶COOPER的那一個可能是北約的我覺得那一本也不錯但在這個框架之下我想給部長看的就是說我們在所謂的交戰的規則裡面因為我們現在按照部長上次的講法我們有突發狀況應變的準則 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4023.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4042.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這個是這一個RE的細緻化就是說如果對方做了什麼我們應該相對應要做什麼那我這邊就擷取了其中一頁就是這是國外的像譬如說在新戰的部分或者在輿論戰的部分它裡面的確有提到那什麼時候我們可以發動新戰我們什麼時候新戰的哪一些手段可以做它有很清楚的這一個等於是一個範本讓我們去填補 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4044.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4062.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
但是他在這個上面他卻沒有提到就是到底他對於新戰的定義是什麼那就像我們在禮拜二討論的到底輿論戰的定義是什麼在報告裡面我們提到在地協力者啊提到這個側翼組織啊官方媒體啊我們到底要怎麼去定性他然後才可以說這是一個灰色地帶作戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4063.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4092.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那這個是灰色地帶作戰我覺得最早我們是在國防白批書是比較常看到但我總覺得國防白批書應該不適合當作是我們的一個Doctrine所以我們應該要在哪裡讓這個Doctrine可以比較清楚的讓國人知道不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法是我跟委員報告說灰色地帶這個問題除了它地帶以外它連同事件有很多灰色的但是陳副官委員講了他中共會認為他說了算他說了算的事情很多但他做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4093.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4110.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我們有沒有認同他說了算他要做不可能的因為我們有我們的想法我只是在平常沒有跟你去做一個口語方面辯論但事實上我們在準備就是說你說了算但我要讓你知道你說了以後不見得算而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4111.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4129.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
不能算我們要做就這個所以在這方面要持續努力這樣環境變化很大再加上每個人想法表達各方面一冠上一個民主自由的話很多地方我們就受到限制但國軍在這一方面離得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4129.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4150.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
不做討論,但一直很認清自己的本務,而且要把這些敵我的界限劃分很清楚,平常在這個界限範圍以內,一有狀況來,把它當作一個演練、一個範本、一個教材、一個signoria,就像想定一樣,強化演練,這是我們唯一能做的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4152.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4167.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
謝謝部長,因為時間有限,我快速的再往後追加一個小問題就可以了,就是我覺得灰色地帶這個部分我們大概已經也是討論了兩個禮拜,我這邊就不再多說,我想要去問一下就是在我們這一個這個美國的NDAA,就是這個國防授權法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4168.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4189.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
就是在這個國防授權法案裡面因為目前來講除了這個魚叉反艦的飛彈等等之類的然後還有蠻重要的就是它對於台灣有點像是全面性的這個國防的韌性的加強其實美國現在有越來越多的方案那在這一些方案的擬定當中目前國軍應對然後跟承接這個國防授權法案的措施有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4190.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4208.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我跟委員報告,首先我們要表達感激,謝謝。因為有任何一個不管團體或國家願意幫我們都是一個正面的看法,我們都要見。但這個授權法案也好,或者強制台灣的這個韌性,這法案是一個法案,但要怎麼樣來強化,怎麼樣來授權,要給我們什麼,那經過討論的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4211.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4239.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
不光是我們國防部跟他來討論而且我們國防部會跟有關的部會一道討論因為這裡面所涵蓋的不光是軍事的這一點我就特別跟委員報告絕對不會我們面對一個國家我們就決定了一定經過大家的協調大家的資源共用而且能夠獲得共同利益來共同防衛我們國家的安全這個著眼沒問題感謝那我之後可能就會在國防授權法案的一些細節然後再就教部長謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4244.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4245.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
接下來請陳永康委員上台發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4291.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4319.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
有請邱部長請邱部長最近提到很多有關武裝衝突法有關接戰規定的規則那麼剛才在前面的委員質詢中間甚至把歷史人物、國外的戰略家講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4321.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4334.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
軍事是政治的延伸這些話都套進來了那我這邊呢做一個建言第一個在國防外交的領域啊就是國家安全事務裡面沒有用光譜這個字Spectrum是 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4335.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4364.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
工程科技的名詞也就是說國家安全的光譜這個話有這樣用嗎沒有就是國家安全的範疇跟領域同樣在軍事用語上軍事與政治上面應該用的是範疇跟領域而不是用光譜只有科技工程才就用光譜叫Spectrum這個字但現在在政治學上很多人喜歡把這個工程的名詞導入變成政治的光譜我建言第一個不要使用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4366.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4380.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
第二點就是有關前次提出的標準作業程序因為它是針對各單位各獨立個案的規定那麼它並沒有橫向跨單位跨部會協調的 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4382.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4382.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4399.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4400.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4416.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4416.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
是,謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4443.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4468.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那麼ROE連帶出來就產生了一個共同圖像那麼前次我們在大會也提到部長也重視這個那麼這個有關的前提目標方法跟手段我在這邊不做細數我就用幾個圖像做舉例第一個各位看到這張圖啊已經是套疊了4層那麼顯示了朝鮮半島 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4470.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4497.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
東海日本防空識別區韓國防空識別區中國大陸在2013年的11月23號發布的東海防空識別區那麼台灣的防空識別區以及菲律賓的防空識別區所以這張的大範疇的圖可以做一個基礎圖我們到時候也可以提供物理做參考在這個上面我們在看到有關南海的問題了也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4498.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4527.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
原來我們是11段線那麼中國大陸當初跟北越因為建立關係取消了變9段線後來他又把它台灣東岸他去畫一條第10段線但這個裡面的原圖原本是美國國務院製造出來的它裡面有各地的領海基線所以這個圖呢就等於說我們跟外交部跟海巡跟執法單位甚至是國安局我們可以共同分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4529.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4539.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那這張圖原本是一個偽造圖我們把它變成一個單色套上台灣跟南海再把剛才這個圖再套上去特別把 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4544.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4570.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
東沙跟南沙的衛照再點上去我們可以建議將來用這種方式對於在決策過程的長官能夠了解相關的位置然後再套上你的機密資料平常只是一個單純的底圖這張圖就顯示了中國大陸的基地以及訓練空域包括紅色虛線的東海防空識別區 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4572.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4595.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
剛才前面委員所說的灰色地帶有些是屬於防空識別區的重疊區那在這個裏面製造的困擾對我方的反應是一種消耗當然你除了監控、監偵以外因為中國大陸他可以對外講我在國際民航組織的圖已經畫上這個所以原本是區塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4597.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4617.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
原本是灰色地帶可能在法律上會變成灰色區塊的論述我想國防部在這個地方除了我們的作戰計畫參謀次長室以外未來以及我們的法制司在國際法上面的引述可以利用ROE裡面的一些條例跟範例來充實這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4621.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4637.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
各位看到這個就是經下水道的圖因為是已經經過坐標校正了所以有方格有經緯度那我們再套碟再套上衛星再套上當時這是某年某月某天的海上活動船 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4638.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4658.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
現在因為很多的軟體程式都可以點了就進入可以查核它是哪一艘是商船或是不明目標根據這個不同的圖套疊加上海底水深可是現在產生了一個結果就是包括海巡用的圖跟我們海軍用的圖甚至陸委會發布的圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4660.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4680.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
他有坐標顯示但是沒有統一調效所以將來這個要請我們的製圖單位、校正單位把發生事件以後每個單位的圖我們做一個調整最後用一份最終的校正圖因為像這張圖例上面是陸委會的圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4681.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4708.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
雖然標了經緯度的數字但是並沒有校正所以以這個方式最後呢來收斂這個結果未來回溯過程中間對於執法過程哪些是解釋的落差哪些是圖像的落差那麼最後能夠做一個收斂那麼我認為在國防部來講在整體的我們的領海問題境限制水域方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4709.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4730.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
作為一個橫向跨部會協調海委會協調國安局大家能夠得到一個共識這樣子比較周延請教部長對這個看法我跟委員報告真的很感激而且對會委員提供這些資料我馬上就有一個概念就是說現在任何工作推動絕對不是單方面單打獨鬥的 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4731.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4753.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以剛剛委員提了這個共同圖像運用要召集哪些人可能不是國防部一個單位可以完成所以我們一定會把這個問題跟管國安會建議因為裡面剛剛委員點到幾個不管外交、國安、海巡還有內政、還有陸委會這些都是有必要加入的因為這個產制加入共同圖像大家認知一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4754.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4765.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
但有任何狀況處理起來就不會好像變成一個好像有點不能講爛的套最起碼有點全者不分的樣所以這一點特別跟委員報告我們這個後續絕對會拔給接續做下去讓各部會多一個統一的一個依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4772.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4787.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那我最後就提出剛才先前跟您的一個建言就是我們不要用國防、外交跟國安的光譜那是範疇跟領域我了解,好好不好?是好,以上,謝謝謝謝委員謝謝我們陳永康委員的發言接下來我們請馬文君委員來發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4824.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4824.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
邱國正報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4835.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4857.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
發言好邱部長好邱部長今天大家在討論我們的一個應處作為就是在目前共軍還有基建侵擾我方的海域也好空域也好造成的這些相關的應處作為我想我們報告裡面有提到那部長也多方 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4858.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4859.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
對於我們現在目前的環境,我們要應處,其實這個也是非常的重要。 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4879.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4884.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
在依據2023年美國財政年度綜合撥款法案裡面所授權的要提供我國每年最多20億美元額度的 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4895.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4896.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
外國軍事融資現在已經有提供我們8000萬美元的融資額度而且可能在上一批裡面其實已經有運送過來裡面當然國防部對於我們有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4913.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4919.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
對美國當然還是競表感謝那基於臺美的默契是沒有評論可是對於我們來說這個我想要請教的是我覺得這個也是我們全體國人應該要知道的尤其立法院因為這個牽涉到是不是會動用到我們的預算而且有很多的面向記得在之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4937.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4962.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
有詢問過部長部長也在立法院也答覆就是不是美國的軍援我們都會照單全收因為硬塞給我們是沒有意義的這個部長有說過嘛就這一批裝備來看我想請教的是這是無償是要不要付錢八千萬美元 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4963.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4967.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這一部分是無償的那無償的就牽涉到部長所說的這是不是我們需要的因為他塞給我們這個怕有一些問題因為雖然國防部沒有證實可是媒體信誓旦旦的提到了幾個比如說像刺針飛彈比如說像戰鬥各裝還有兩兩四棟等等其實這些是有曝露出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4990.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4994.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這個會不會牽涉到延壽或者未來的料配件或者因為他來我們不可能把它露天隨便擺放你還要蓋庫房那後勤的維保等等這個到底給了我們什麼樣的東西是不是我們要的我們還要增加多少剛剛我提到的這些後續的預算我們有計算過嗎這真的是我們符合我們需求的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5015.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5037.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
好,我跟委員報告,委員剛剛講了兩點,第一個我現在講一下,我們軍事經常講到劣勢鬥技具,就戰略、戰術、戰鬥、戰技跟戰具由上到下是一個指導,我有怎麼樣一個戰略構想,我要指導你戰術作為如何,由上向下,但由下往上的話叫支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5038.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5062.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我要有的戰距才能夠練這個戰距所以一步一步這個層次很分明所以我剛當初講的到現在沒有變不想說他對我們有的軍援或任何一個好處我們不會照單全說一定經過討論所感激的不光我們國防部跟他討論而且國防部還透過各部會你們怎麼樣能夠共用的這是絕對很重要這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5063.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5064.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
所以他會不會用掉我們的很多的預算? |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5094.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5103.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
因為他一定是舊的嘛現有的庫存的嘛庫存但絕對堪用的因為堪用我們剛剛提到他可能有延壽的問題他可能後勤為保會造成比較大的負擔因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5110.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5129.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
不用錢就是貴啦我們用咖啡機來舉例啦現在有很多他會送你咖啡機可是他咖啡都特別貴你又不用不行所以這個部分是我們要考慮的這也是我們非常重視部長當初說的不是他要給我們什麼我們都要收那這裡面有沒有是真非淡 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5130.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5131.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
美國的年度預算裡面在最新的報導就是有獨立台灣國務院他們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5158.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5183.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
通過的這個預算裡面其實有1億元就是年度預算這個部分美國另外一邊1億元的這個對台軍援那就這個部分國務院的副國務卿也提到他說年度預算讓美國能夠持續投資國力基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5184.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5203.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
而且跟志同道合的夥伴強化共同的利益,盡一切可能在競爭中勝過中國。從這段話裡面也赤裸裸的直接表明,其實台灣可能是美國想要在跟中國競爭當中所勝出的一個工具。 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5207.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5223.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
因為在這些基礎或者像它的這個軍援那就這個部分這一億元之前那個八千萬美元是無償的那這一億元是有償還是無償也一樣是無償它這個有關這個法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5224.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5245.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
對我們最大利處就是說,第一個我們要什麼可以討論,我們不會招攬全收,而且他給的絕對不講廢品等等,不會。另外就我們因為無償,所以將來不會有任何的顧慮。而且我想這一方面細節部分還是要拜託委員,我們派專人去跟您做說明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5245.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5273.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我們現在就討論的部分有場無場嘛因為在他通過的法案裡面其實是分兩種有一種是無場的有一種是有場的就是要融資的那融資的部分就我們的預算法裡面其實不管是借貸或者各方面你的稅入稅出所有的支出是必須經過立法院因為這個牽涉到我們所有整體的預算所以如果是融資的部分必須要讓全民知道這個部分國防部可以做到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5274.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5293.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
這個一定的,我們也怕給你將來變成一個源頭,因為如此要付出什麼費用,我們絕對不會接受。就算假如有的話,我們也會跟會裡面做一個報告,不會貿然的去做決定,這點可以保證。 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5294.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5296.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
好 那就這些部分因為我想這個牽涉到我們後續還有非常多的武器裝備因為我們付出的我們的需求到目前為止美方可能還欠缺的還是非常非常多還沒有交給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5310.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5317.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
所以就這兩個部分我們希望可以做一個平衡而不是他庫存的一直提供給我們那現在是有說明說是無償可是我們還是希望在後續比如說後勤的維保還有料配件他既然是庫存的料配件的取得也許也是我們要擔憂的所以這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5331.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5340.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
也請到時候在辦公室做一些說明就好那另外就是我們現在面臨到非常多的像越界的問題這個不會因為即使海巡的這個問題解決了以後它持續還是會發生不管是在我們的空域也好在我們的海域也好我們周邊的海疆也好其實都會不斷的發生那目前這個越界捕撈或者說像海巡署也證實了 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5360.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5384.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
之前他們的漁船已經進到我們六海里的一個地方而且中國的挖泥船也一直不斷的出沒在威嚇我們禁縣制的這個水域那就這些狀況來看我們國防部要如何跟海巡這邊做一個適切的搭配因為像之前三艘大的漁船進來其實顯然 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5386.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5409.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
海巡已經沒有很多的人力資源可以去應付尤其除了像我剛剛講的除了像他如果進來的不是軍艦如果是他們最讓大家覺得威脅最深的就是小藍人他也不是軍艦可是他又是重型漁船至少都500噸以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5411.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5428.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
其實這個在在如果他在北中南各放20艘我們大概就疲於奔命那海巡在沒有辦法自己去面對處置的時候國防部這邊會有什麼樣的一個方向方式可以跟他們做一個銜接的處應處作為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5429.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5453.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
委員剛才問到一個重點,我們跟海軍怎麼樣搭配,怎麼樣互相協調問題。這平常我們有一個協定,要怎麼樣撞一下我們海軍會去支援。但是這個支援有個界定,除非他有武裝,我們要以武裝來對他武裝。但目前為止,剛剛還有委員所假定的,這都是在這個法,在執法當中會遇到的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5454.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5478.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那現在海巡有任何問題他跟我們聯絡平常情報就有交換都通聯的一旦要的話我們就要保持在一個範圍以內提供他旁邊還有什麼狀況或提供他要必要的資源的話更加接近或去做一個很有實質效果的幫他做一個防築但原則上講說只要對方沒有用軍事裝備的話我們國軍不疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5482.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5500.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
因為這個一定是一個執法跟軍事作戰是完全不一樣的我們也謹慎的來面對部長當然我們也不希望有太多的壓力給我們所有的我們國防部或者海巡因為我們也知道現有的一個處境的狀況可是因為現在慢慢的從過去24、12、6、3、2 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5506.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5514.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
他越來越近他如果即使不是軍艦可能對我們還是有一些壓力跟影響就這個部分我們也希望除了在我們的國防單位海巡單位其實應該要去面對以外怎麼樣去做更好的一個溝通因為我說美中的競爭這麼多剛剛部長也提到其實領導人應該要有智慧去做一個政策的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5535.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5535.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5551.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5551.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5582.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5582.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5604.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5604.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5622.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5623.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5641.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5661.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
用公開招標好多家都有資格所以我在這裡要特別強調的是我們不要利用不幸的事件做一些不對的事情在這裡我特別請部長再去做一些瞭解那如果有什麼樣的疏失我們也希望不要再犯同樣的這樣的錯誤我們接下來還會有一些時間來探討我們一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5666.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5687.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
主要的武器裝備的採購他產生的問題那這一部分先提出來請部長可以瞭解一下我跟委員報也跟主席建議一下我給幾秒鐘我做一個簡單的說明第一個我要說的是國軍絕對不會利用某個世界利用這個時候做他平常做不到或要強化的 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5688.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5717.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
因為這個就很難聽了利用這個危害部長我也補充一下我不是說國軍我說有心人是就想說我們都一個遺憾那後面防處以後裡面為什麼裝備要緊急採購或採購項目為什麼價格不一樣這我們會派人再次再跟委員做一個很清楚的一個說明事實上有幾位委員也很關切我們也分別海軍派去以後經過這樣說明他也了解了 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5718.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5740.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
但我還是很感激委員對這件事情關切我們會把這個來龍去脈為什麼會造成這個事情然後後面補救的方法詳細跟委員做報告好 謝謝部長謝謝委員好 謝謝馬文清委員的發言接下來我們請羅美玲委員來發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5750.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5759.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
謝謝主席有請邱部長還有海巡署周署長也就是我們海委會的副主委有請邱部長還有海巡署 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5765.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5792.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
陸委員好部長早部委員早署長早本席也是要針對這個我們海軍跟海巡在海上執法的時候我們要如何分工這議題跟兩位做一個探討那剛剛我在那個報告裡面看得很清楚就是說有關於海軍支援海巡海域的這執法方面我們還是堅守著海巡對海巡 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5793.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5819.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
就是海軍對海軍的這個最大的這個原則剛剛在報告裡面我們有看到這個部分那本席有看到一份這個有關於2月27號的一個報導也就是說中共有三艘的這個海警船在2月27號的時候直接就進犯到我國東部的這個海域那媒體第一時間在報導就是說當下沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5822.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5824.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
海巡署沒有派艦艇過去,但後來海巡署也看到後續的澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5841.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5858.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那天其實有派了這個南投艦前去了而且呢也有通報這個海軍那我有看到有一位中華戰略學會資深研究員就是張靜他對這部分其實做了很大的一個批判他就認為說應該就是白色海軍對白色海軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5860.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5871.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
指法艦艇對指法艦艇海巡對海巡他覺得海軍派了這個諾克斯級艦去攔阻中共的海警船其實我們就是把這個遊戲規則搞壞了這說法請問部長請問署長你們同意嗎你們認為說你們這是在破壞遊戲規則嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5881.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5897.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我跟委員報告,從頭到尾,我們有什麼主動過,那天不曉得我們派出海軍去對他那個東西,我們剛有報告,平常就固定在這個不管海峽或者東北或者南端,我們都有派我們的海軍徵詢艦在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5898.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5901.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那整個過程可以清楚說明一下嗎那件事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5914.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5917.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我們後來有發一個聲明稿我們整個台灣周遭的海域每天都有固定的海軍的偵詢艦跟海巡的偵詢艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5931.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5954.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
不同的位置不同的時間那天那個東部的海域是屬於海軍的62點溝支隊也就是168艦隊所屬管轄的範圍那他所派的那天的偵巡的艦艇是諾克斯艦我為什麼會這麼熟悉呢我幹過62點溝支隊的支隊長所以我了解這個整個作業的流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5956.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5984.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
外界所傳的這個不是一個事實因為這三艘船從花蓮正東開始進來的時候它一直都沒有進入到24海里的臨界區的這個線所以它這個訊息是錯誤的另外在一個禮拜之前國防部就完全掌握這三艘船在我們的東南海域執行一個操演所以我們一直都有掌握這三艘船 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5984.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6012.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
一直到那天﹖所以並不是媒體所報導﹖當然不是﹖當時我們的藍頭艦在釣魚台水域負責釣魚台水域的這個偵詢任務當海軍跟我們在海上互相通聯之後瞭解這三艘船會靠近到24海里的時候海軍諾克斯艦這就是他第二點溝之內的巡防的區域他當時就在那附近他就在那邊採取並行監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6014.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6037.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我們同時就調南投艦直接從釣魚台海域東北角直接往下開來接替這個任務後面當我們的船到現場之後跟海軍的諾克斯交接之後我們就一路護送他從這個鵬家嶼海域他轉西北離開我們的近縣制水域但是在這中間在早上 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6038.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6041.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
這過程當中都沒有任何的衝突嗎?都沒有,完全沒有,而且我們完全是在並行監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6055.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6083.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
後續我有聽到報導說我們海巡其實也有廣播驅離他只要一旦進入水域我們一定按照我們的標準作業程序做廣播做驅離同時那天我們立刻就處理我們在臺北港已經備變了一個宜蘭艦我們的處置是只要他一旦進入二次海域宜蘭艦立刻從臺北港出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6084.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6111.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我們就是臺北港的宜蘭艦加上南投艦一併加上海軍的這個濟洋級艦就可以跟他一路的並航監控他一直到他脫離到我們的水域為止所以這個是那天整個的實情而且這個實情如果說要掌握我們跟海軍簽有海上的這些資源協定所以他很早就已經把這些資訊就告知我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6111.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6112.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
所以一切都在我們的掌握當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6130.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6148.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我相信這個學者也好這個專家也好他一定是片面的他不了解我們內部的作業程序因為我們內部作業流程只有我們跟海軍會知道國防部會知道那我們怎麼樣採取的處置這些都是我們日常每天都會遭遇的 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6151.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6162.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
軍事與非軍事,目前我們與國防部略定得非常清楚,只要是屬於軍艦,或從事與軍事有關活動的,是由國防部的軍艦來對應。 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6166.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6167.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6186.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6213.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
如果他平常是在一個不敏感的水域那這種時候國防部跟我們會有個溝通一定是海巡去處理但如果今天這些船是跟著他的軍事的船團在一起或者在某一個特定的水域特定的時間他在某一個地方出現那國防部如果認定這個水域這個時間是敏感的那國防部也會派軍艦去處理那海巡的船體一定是在24里內 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6216.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6241.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
來對應的採取並行平行航行監控的一個作為以上特別跟委員做個說明謝謝署長非常清楚的這個說明所以以後遇到類似這種狀況我也希望有關單位要第一時間跳出來清楚就像剛剛這樣子清楚的這個說明那再來剛我有提到就是說其實當天我們有派了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6242.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6258.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
南投艦,我想請問一下南投艦的噸數是多少?六百噸。六百噸。那天出現的三,但是說那天沒有出現任何的這個衝突,可是那天呢,這三艘的這個海警船,它是包括了3450噸級的2303、2304,還有3980噸級的2305。 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6267.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6288.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我想請教一下,如果真的雙方有所衝突的時候,我們在這個量級上面或是說戰力上面,我們是不是有很大的落差?各位委員特別聲明,最近有很多都在報導,是不是這些盾位的影響,或者是他有船艦炮力,他的武力或比我們強,但我想我們的重點是在執法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6289.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6316.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我們如何執法才是個重點他如果違反規定即使他有再多的這個大炮跟火箭我們還是要執法只要他如果違反了我們中華民國的規定我們當然要執法這個跟船的大小無關過去這麼多的時間以內我想我們在海上的行動不是單一的行動海巡對應這些船隻的時候海軍的艦艇一直在旁邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6317.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6328.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
海軍這些對應的艦艇有相當的對應的武力但我們還有很多暗自的設施那這些暗自的設施對這些每一個目標我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6331.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6347.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
所以海軍永遠還是會站在海巡的背後當我們的這個後盾是不是?因為我們有看到說其實像盾數說實在的真的是非常的不對稱而且我們所知道的像中國的這個海警船大部分都是他們這個都是他們的海軍的這個艦隊然後退役之後呢再給他改 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6354.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6363.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我跟委員補充報告一下他不是退役以後他是把現用的艦艇甚至還在造船廠造的軍艦直接改裝成海警艦也有是舊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6372.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6372.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6396.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6425.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
據我們所掌握的資料大概有34艘這樣子由軍艦直接轉換為這個海警船的我想中國大陸在2019年他從國家海洋局把這個海警這個單位直接轉換為在中央軍委會指揮之下之後他就有一個很大的改變那這樣子大的改變我相信是為了便宜他未來可能要在海上遭遇到很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6426.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6427.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
中共的所謂的海警艦艇其實已經是帶著其實由海軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6454.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6466.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
海軍這個戰力了嗎?對不對?它的一些武器系統也是有拆除的保留最大的口徑應該是76炮吧應該是76炮口徑已經很大了我跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6473.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6499.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
當然我相信他們這樣子的一個應處作為也是為了因應未來這個他們要想擴大維權在南海在東海在這個周邊海域執法的一個所需那我們最近可以看到很多不管是在菲律賓海域或者是在釣魚台附近海域他們所執行的大型的這種海警船都是類似像這樣子的船隻大概有130艘左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6500.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6515.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那麼這裡面有34艘我想大概那個比例大概可以佔到百分之30左右這樣子是由軍艦改裝的那這個都是我們未來必須要面對到的這個威脅跟挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6518.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6541.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
是,非常的辛苦,我相信海巡也好,海軍也好,真的是非常的辛苦尤其呢,這個中國最近對海峽中線這個部分呢,它表示不存在,它表態不存在那等同打破了過去的這個平衡面,所以我在想未來我方的海巡、海軍跟空軍可能在執法方面都會非常的辛苦,而且更加的複雜大家加油,謝謝是,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6551.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6577.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
謝謝不過我們也希望海巡相關單位因為最近還是事情比較多不要有過度樂觀或者避重就輕的一個說法因為這樣好像也跟之前的說法有一些矛盾那在這裡詳細的一些資料我們也請海巡到時候再提供給本委員會我們再提出一些相關的要求接下來請林楚英委員上台發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6588.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6597.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
謝謝主席：主席有請邱部長以及我們海巡署的周署長請邱部長還有周署長、周副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6605.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6621.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
委員早部長早副主委早今天早上是不是在我們的金門的限制水域有中國籍的漁船翻覆有這樣的情況嗎?有街道通報嗎?那整體的事件是怎麼發生的? |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6623.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6646.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我跟委員做個報告我們今天早上在6點02分的時候接獲到國修中心的通知那麼在我們東定西南方1點03海裏的水域也就是在我們禁縣制水域內0點3海裏的位置有一艘陸船翻覆那麼請我們提供救援的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6647.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6674.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
所以他們是一個他們自己在行駛在我們禁制水域內的一個漁船翻覆那麼他通知的時候是有5個船員在上面已經全部落海半浮半沉那我們立即就派出我們的線上艇因為我們每天24小時有線上艇一個35頓艇立刻就前往去救援同時我們從我們廖羅直接再派出 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6675.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6677.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以目前最近收就的情況是什麼現在目前他原來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6692.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6714.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
告訴我們是五個人,但是我們馬上跟我們的對口單位,叫漳州的海事聯絡單位去確認今天早上所有的狀況,那麼他跟我們講是六位,那麼我們就一再的查證到底是六位還是五位,那最後我們跟福州的NRCC就他的一個救援單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6715.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6735.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
他通知我們是6位也就是說我們海巡對海巡的一個對口單位給我們的資訊是正確的那在我報告的同時我們現在陸方已經救起兩個生還者兩個這個死亡者這兩個死亡者有一個是由我們東定的守備部隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6736.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6758.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
因為事發的同時我就在秦始中心下令請我們的巡防區立刻通知東定的這個守備部隊叫他所有的人力到岸際去搜索因為他離東定島的岸際不到一海裏所以我主觀的判斷我們如果用高倍的望遠鏡看是可以看到這些人的那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6761.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6776.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
有一個人在我們西南的角域海域我們的守軍就立刻要下去救這個人很不幸已經沒有生命跡象就由陸方的搜救艦給他帶走目前還有兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6777.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6805.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
人現在是下落不明那目前我們已經在剛剛10分鐘前我們已經準備潛水人員下去準備潛水到船艙內去看所以目前如果說您所知道的資料就是在這艘船上面有6人有4人已經尋獲不論生或死另外還有2人是失蹤的狀態現在是失蹤還正在搜尋那我們現在都全力在跟陸方一起在共同在搜尋 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6805.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6820.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
好所以在剛剛周副主委的回答底下邱部長其實事實上我們國軍在這樣的通報當中也有進行協助的救援跟搜救的任務包括其實也有一些安全的防衛對不對因為陸方 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6823.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6849.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
所以說中國的部分他一定也有派出相關的搜救機那麼在我們安全防衛當然這是一個人道救援的狀況但是就像今天我們前面幾位同仁都不斷的在詢問的就是當灰色地帶或是兩岸對峙的情況底下發生了這種所謂不幸的事件的時候一方面他們出動救援但是救援會不會還有夾帶其他的任務偵查其實對於國軍來說是兩邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6852.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6853.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
都有警覺的是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6853.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6862.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
所以我想請問部長就是今天早上這個事件獲得通報之後我們做了哪些的監控又或者做了哪些是監控哪些是救援部分的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6882.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6883.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
所以對中國來說中國這邊他有出動搜救機嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6909.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6911.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
沒有可能後來又出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6915.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6941.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
好,那麼面對中國當然出現搜救機那麼我們在國防這邊有什麼樣的因應嗎?國軍這裡沒有,因為這邊已經很確認了第一,它這個機具不是軍用的第二,它人員也並沒有進犯的完全一個人道方面的處理我們能夠配合協助的哪怕把這事撈上來以後該要後續處理的我們絕對是做人道方面的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6942.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6962.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
在這裡其實要給海巡跟國軍的弟兄一個肯定其實面對中國的步步禁閉甚至於威脅但是確定這是一艘所謂的中國級漁船而且它是需要人道救援的時候其實不論是海巡弟兄或者是國軍弟兄第一線站在人道救援的立場上其實都是給予協助所以我必須要講的署長其實在這過程當中我們都還在討論三無船對岸還在給我們的臉色看 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6968.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6976.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
但是真的今天一早在禁制水域發生了這樣的事件的時候大家其實第一時間還是以救人為主對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6977.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7006.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
當然這是我們平常的任務之一救生救難就是我們的任務之一尤其是今夏這個水域是一個很狹窄的水域如果雙方不能夠合作的話那很多事情都很難處理所以為什麼在過去這20多年我們跟對方的海事執法單位能夠有這麼好的一個溝通跟互相通聯的一個機制也就是當這種緊急事故發生的時候我們可以第一時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7007.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7017.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
互通有無,然後他派遣的這些救援的是哪些?我們派遣的救援是哪些?因為救援要看水流,像今天就是向東的流, |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7020.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7037.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
向東的流有兩節的流速那麼通常兩節的流速基本上我們的潛水人員就沒有辦法下去做這個潛水因為我們的限制是在一節但是我們今天還是要全力來救這個可能生還者 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7038.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7061.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
所以我們要求他們綁上我們的這個安全鎖然後我們希望在可行的範圍之內我們盡量去救爭取黃金的救援時間那麼剛剛最新的回報這一艘船已經慢慢因為流的影響已經靠近到我們的這個東定島西南的岸際那如果說在退潮之後我相信東定的守軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7062.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7081.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
他早上已經全部動員了全部在暗記做搜索我相信跟我們海巡會協力把這個船艙內的整個狀況做一個瞭解那目前我們的潛水人員已經在水中備備隨時只要是流向可行我們就會潛進這個船艙裡面去搜索 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7082.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7100.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這都是我們日常應該做好的一件事情其實從總署長的發言我也希望對岸中國能夠聽得到我們對於真的是人道救援的部分我們絕對也是同理心的第一時間來出動來做協助但是以本席的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7101.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7128.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
的整理就會發現說中國的船隻非法越界其實層出不窮對於海巡或者是鎮守我們海域的這些海軍弟兄們來說其實都是相當疲憊不堪的那中國這種另外一邊像今天早上所發生的我們確切已經證實到了確實就是漁船翻覆的不幸事件所以我們第一時間來救援來成員但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7129.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7136.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
之前發生的包括這種非法的三無船又或者是過去這種所謂灰色地帶的行動這個海上民兵到底兩者之間這種8年來超過1.7萬艘的中國民兵船或者是海警囂張的行為製造灰色衝突的時候我想就叫部長跟署長在這兩者之間的時候我們如何判定 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7160.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7165.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
海警、海巡跟海軍目前就我們所收集的樣態來看,他現在已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7168.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7170.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
每次每一種不同的狀況發生的時候如果委員還記得的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7197.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7223.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
在前不久,過年前後,選舉前後,他們曾經派了一艘拖船在離高雄港6海里,3海里的附近那火腿族有聽到,也是那時候對海巡有很多的不諒解,說為什麼我們沒有處理他從還沒有進入到我們24海里,我們的船就一直伴隨他,因為他後面拖帶了一艘很大的一個,拖了一個船 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7223.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7240.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那如果在那種狀況下我們去登檢它或者停止它那個大船比它拖船大很多可能會有海上維安的顧慮同時那個風浪是很壞的那天的風浪是八級到十級所以在海上的判斷當中其實海巡這邊會有不同的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7244.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7265.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我們也都有我們這些跨單位都有做一些資料庫當我們在空中或者海上或者其他的管道我們得知這樣子的一個船隻我們第一件事情就要判定它是不是民兵船它是不是對我們有企圖的情報船因為可能任何一個漁船都可能是民兵船 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7266.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7270.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
任何的預算我們從外觀不好意思,我必須要打斷你因為我要留一點時間來問一下部長部長,那麼所以就如同剛剛署長所說的這個判斷有很多的層次但是如果灰色衝突不斷的製造跟產生的時候您過去也提到就像前幾天所講的我們的第一集的這樣的定義有所改變的時候那麼在面對像這樣的海上灰色衝突的時候會變更您的定義嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7294.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7316.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
不會,因為我所謂的要做這個第一集航空跟海航實體這沒有變,但是程序要走啊,我們不能說略過程序,飄過一個木板我們越打,那不就離得,程序不會變,所以更加密切合作,而我們國軍徵軍的方法,除橫指所能掌控以外, |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7317.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7333.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
各地它有雷達或者有目視的還有透過我們不管是電展室、軍營局等等我們勤事單位都可以收整一終整完以後就可以判斷它來的原因在哪裡,有無敵意 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7333.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7351.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好我最後一個問題就是那麼在就以海上的這樣一個情況來講的時候在判斷的過程的流程SOP是海巡署獲得資訊之後提供給國防部又或者是一個什麼樣的流程決定了是不是惡意的第1集必須要有一些更嚴厲的拉高這個所謂軍事的行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7356.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7381.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這個情勢交換是不停的沒有講他給我我們給他又或者馬上通報這就平常在演練的過程當中又橫向一個聯絡就納在訓練的過程當中在因為有這個過程所以這個當中啊他就會做研判這些人都是專業人員不管海上的也好海軍也好都很專業的我們的敵我識別都很容易被判明 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7382.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7396.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
加上他是一個來意不善的那我們該要警告的該要喊話的這個程序還不聽那最後就已經不期望看到的事情那可能就要罰罪了好 謝謝部長辛苦謝謝委員好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7406.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7415.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我們接下來先宣告等一下賴世寶委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘接下來我們請徐巧欣委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7427.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7437.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
謝謝主席,那我想請這個邱國正部長還有我們海委會的海巡署署長,周署長請邱部長、周署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7446.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7473.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
委員早現在大家都很擔心最近有很多大陸漁船一直靠近不管是會影響到我們禁止水域或者是說像今天陸船他們自己翻覆了那兩岸要不斷的去搜救發生這樣的事情第一個我想要問的是最近這樣子的一個情況越演越烈請問邱部長未來我們在禁止水域的界線是否會發生變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7474.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7477.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那你們現在的評估,我問的是你們的評估,現在有沒有一種常態化的發生的可能性,我們現在自我的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7496.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7497.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
等一下針對那個ADIZ的部分我會再來詢問您但我們先問一下我們周署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7522.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7547.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
就是說呢大家很關心的是先前有這個三艘大型的陸船進入苗栗近海離本島只有6海里那當然您剛剛說的很多的解釋跟理由我都有聽到了但是呢這個是不是變成是大陸方面他掌握了一個方式就是說來跟你宣示他的主權然後他甚至他漁船上是有他們自己的國旗的 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7548.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7557.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那就是差期宣誓主權看你能耐我何你們在整個過程當中有這樣子的感受嗎那我們具體因應的方式到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7558.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7581.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
謝謝委員的詢問我想第一我要先回答委員就是從最近的這個數字上來看並沒有增加陸船越界捕魚也好或者從事其他活動也好這個數量並沒有增加數量沒有增加如果以二三月跟去年同年的二三月來比的話他是減少百分之三十幾的 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7581.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7603.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以還減少所以你們並不擔心未來禁制水域被超越這件事情會常態化我們現在都在做全班的準備所以你們不是不擔心但是你們是覺得不會我們沒有說不會因為它每天都會發生這樣子越界的行形沒有我說的是常態化的部分不會而你是說它 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7604.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7630.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
常態化的部分剛剛部長已經有回答我們會去觀察因為這個常態化不是一天兩天一個禮拜兩個禮拜可能要一個月兩個月我們才知道它是不是常態化但你以這個月來說你認為還減少了所以你不認為未來常態化的狀況會有越界進入到禁限制水域的部分是減少的但是有沒有一個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7632.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7652.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
動兩夭式事件之後有沒有一個新的一個形態出來我們現在正在觀察中那要問的是說那像這樣的狀況你們執法跟取締來說的話那大家在問為什麼上次沒有取締我們上次的整個的三艘漁船在苗栗外海的狀況我們都有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7655.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7681.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
同時我們也有派船那我們的派船當天臺中海巡隊派的是100噸那麼因為海象已經達到10級所以他沒有辦法出港他已經在那個港口港嘴的外面但是他那天的海象確實不好所以中部分署長就下令他返航持續用雷達監控但同時我們那天在新竹外海有一艘宜蘭艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7683.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7709.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
三千噸的大船在那邊我們立刻通知宜蘭艦對這三艘目標做監控所以宜蘭艦同時所以未來發生類似的狀況的時候我們會以監控為主而非以取締為主嗎沒有你要看所有的狀況當然你不同的水域不同的狀況以及你不同的海象我再跟委員做一個背景說明當天的海象就像我剛剛所報告的 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7712.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7732.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
是8到10級,那麼過去有這種現象,尤其是在我們周遭水域那陸船因為要尋求一個更好的風浪,它會有避風的作為,像青梅海域像這種東北季風盛行的時候,超過8級上它就會向青梅靠攏,那我們的船跟雷達都會監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7734.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7739.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
如果這些船在海上一轉好之後它就離開我們就認知它是一個尋常的避風的作為如果說它在避風之後海上已經轉到3到5級、7級的時候那我們當然海警我們的巡邏艇立刻就會派過去去理這些您剛剛都講過了我們都有聽到先謝謝署長因為我們 署長先請回我們要問一下邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7764.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7786.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
就是說呢為什麼我會關心常態化這個事情是過去我們看到了ADIZ的部分穿越海峽中線我們來給大家看一下這個圖好不好您播一下這個部分是近年來共及漁業海峽中線的次數統計那我們沒有公佈架次也是希望說能夠保護我們國家相關的機敏性資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7787.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7812.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
但是大家可以看到這個整體的數量來說從2022年8月時任美國眾議院議長培洛西訪台之後是不斷的往上飆升的甚至2020年之前也沒有做相關的固定的統計記錄所以變成是這個他們超越ADIZ海峽中心這個部分變成是常態化那但是我們看到過去喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7814.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7825.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
可以看到過去2019年的時候有一次2019年4月對方呢蓄意越過海峽中線請問一下部長您記得當時我方做的是什麼樣的處置嗎2019年4月的時候蔡總統有講話的 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7831.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7835.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我問的是這一次嗎?這一次的部分是在北部的海峽中線,它是有短暫逾越的情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7848.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7873.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那會短暫逾越他已經不是那當下的情況不是常態一般這我們統計那五年的情況價值很少那時候也跟到委員報告跟主任提的這些都是非計畫性為啥非計畫因為天氣因為避浪沒有是嘛我們時間很有限啦我的問題是說當下我們做的具體的狀況是什麼你就直接回答這個部分好不好就問題回答當下的情況除了我們防空內打擊戰你們有沒有強勢驅離嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7876.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7878.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
當時蔡英文總統還發了一篇臉書他內容怎麼寫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7899.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7916.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
他寫說我已下令軍方對蓄意越過中線的挑釁必須第一時間強勢驅離因為台海中線的穩定存在是確保兩岸和平現狀與蓄意安全穩定的基石這是蔡英文臉書總統上面總統臉書寫的內容可是2019年我們回到前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7922.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7946.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
2019年之後4月之後一陣子平息了一下但後續看到的是我們幾乎每年都不斷不斷的在增加這些ADIZ越過的部分到底有什麼樣具體的形態我們可以去做到去保護所謂我們的海峽中線而不是2019年的時候第一次來也不是第一次啦當時比較少來的時候我們強勢區裡寫了一個臉書告訴大家我們會這個守護海峽中線 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7951.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7976.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
但請問到現在呢我們對於海峽中線的守護到底做的怎麼樣還是他們來很多次之後我們就比較習慣了不能習慣這件事吧我跟你們報告國軍在那應處沒有找到哪個階段的這偶發事件有偶發事件處理的方法但平常我們一定嚴密監控現在這個數量當然我也有跟同仁講的我們要知道的話可以到委員單去講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7976.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7993.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
但我跟委員基本上來講現在架勢都是保持一個概略數量但有偶發這種狀況譬如說不管是有國外有台言論或有外民來訪他會利用這個時候做一個聯合的一個所謂戰備警詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7994.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8010.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
是 國防部部長很明確的可以看到在2020年之前幾乎很少這樣子的情況但從2022年開始就變得非常的頻繁我們是在詢問說這樣子的一個常態化之後我們的因應方式到底有什麼具體的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8010.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8035.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我們應作為就兩者一樣因為我們沒有辦法一架對一架我們不管是戰力各方面不能去這樣搞第二個我們也看到它的常態就是說在某個範圍以內它現在這邊有點告警的味道所以我們就嚴密金融以外還有其他很多手段比如說要接近了該要喊話再攻擊去面對或者有臨時起來的甚至於 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8037.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8039.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
當然我是非常認同但我另外想請問邱部長一個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8067.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8092.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
就是說前幾天您在被詢的時候被問到要求清楚界定中共在地協力者的定義你最後呢說只要言論對有利中共不利我方的都算是在地協力者請問要不要再針對這個部分做比較詳細的論述我講得很清楚啊這個任何一個言論只要利於其他方面不利我方的那就我們要初步認定它是某一個地方的支持者或者協力者 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8093.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8112.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
這個人的認定又跟我們好像哪一個團體裡面幫他喊拉隊但是一定是他支持者但是他以後預約法律我也特別後面有講這要減掉單位他們來處理這不是我的但是部長當您講說你就對我不利對他有利的你就初步認為是在地協力者 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8112.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8138.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
您作為國防部長講出這樣的話之後會引起很大的風波因為有些事情它不見得違法但它對社會一個人的社會形象是有影響的那如果你只是因為有一個人的說法你覺得對我不利對他有利你就說我初步認定你是在地協力者那請問對那個人的名譽來說呢你們沒有做任何的查證的情況能夠指控對方就是在地協力者嗎你說初步就認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8141.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8144.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
你可不可以再清楚講一次你認為什麼樣的一個狀態算是你所認為的在地協力者 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8157.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8171.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我們基本上他有這個發表這些言論不利於我方或利用這個造謠他順風在鼓吹就不利於我方我就認為他是沒有善意的他是至於在哪邊幫哪一個神幫誰那要檢調單位去確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8174.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8196.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
可是他說的在地協力者是所謂清楚界定中共在地協力者欸所以如果變成是說你說任何的言論你個人認為對我方不利對他有利就是中共在地協力者他就變成某種程度的構別的概念嗎對中共有利這中共嘛我們目標就是中共對中共有利那對哪個團體有利不利我沒有決定欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8196.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8207.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那我說喔最近前一陣子他們在講驚嚇海域事件關心驚嚇海域事件認為海巡署有責任的都屬於中共在地協力者您認同嗎我問的是您認同嗎所以部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8215.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8227.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
以剛剛這樣子的一個狀態來說,你會認定說關注海巡署是否有疏失的人,叫做中共在立協力者嗎?我沒這樣講喔,我也沒這樣認為喔。你沒有這樣認為,好。我不是說您,不不不,您聽我說,您聽我說,您聽我說,不要緊張好嗎?我沒緊張,我為什麼要緊張呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8235.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8260.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
您剛說的如果這不算的話但當時詢問您的立法委員他就說了在包含我們的委員會裡面他都說了質疑海巡署的這些都是所謂的中共在立協力者是!所以當他詢問您說是不是只要對我不利對對方有利的都算您說對的時候就變成是大家會去解讀好像現在所有的言論裡面只要講到政府哪裡不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8260.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8285.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
就可以扣上一個中共在地協力者的帽子這是一個民主自由的一個社會大家各自表述我們都不會具以智慧但有人問到我怎麼樣對這個在地協力者的界定我們報告上引用的我就要引用出來但我個人看法就只要對他尤其對敵方有利對我不利我覺得他是在地協力者但有沒有違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8285.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8309.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我沒有去做判斷那未來如果你們會去制定相關的法則我不會做這樣的法則因為我沒有依據我不會立一個法律來定定說只要是中共認定的中共協力者我就要對你處罰不會做這樣子的一個修法的方向國防部有什麼權利來制定一個法律做一個界定或怎麼樣來執法所以你們不會這麼做嗎好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8315.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8319.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
好,接下來請王定宇、周偉上台發言。好,謝謝周偉,麻煩我們海巡署署長以及陸軍參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8346.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8359.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
委員長兩位早我們今天有幾個問題要就教於您當然今天新聞已經報導我看有些東西也說明了在今天早上6點中國有一艘漁船在我們的海域外 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8360.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8388.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
翻覆這是人道救援那這個翻覆的話看起來是有5個漁民其中一個人救起來還有4個 真正6名是6個6個漁民有一個救起來另外5個失蹤不見了2個救起2個4位救起2個生還2個已經離難另外有2個現在還失蹤搜尋中所以總共6個2個生還2個不信那另外2位待搜救 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8390.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8409.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我看到我們海巡是有出船去協助人道救援是,我們今天早上6點2分的時候接到國搜中心轉中華搜救的通知中華搜救是哪邊的單位是中共當局的一個搜救的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8410.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8424.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
是中國尋求我們這邊協助嗎?中國海事中心通知我們國收請我們協助嘛請我們協助對那我們就出船去協助我們立刻出船這個符合國際慣例啦人到救援我們賣就沒三分這個也是我們平常日常的工作範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8426.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8444.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
這種要求我們協助救援是罕見還是常常遇到經常遇到我們有個數字我們去年一年是我們近三年有17案119人我們近三年像這樣子他們請求我們支援的就有17案我們救起來了113人 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8446.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8448.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
一百一十九人 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8461.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8475.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
違法者侵入我們的海域特別山無船舶你沒有船籍沒有許可證連博港證明都沒有的全世界包含中國海事單位其實都會取締違法就取締該去就驅離執法技巧該檢討就檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8477.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8504.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
遇到人道救援今天早上凌晨中國也是要求尋求我們的協助所以現在還有兩位在待尋求所以其實在執法、人道救援跟取締非法之間其實清清楚楚這邊還牽涉到我們國家漁民的漁權那天我看到我們漁會的人去謝謝海巡、鼓勵海巡那個分隊長還哽咽我可以體會那種心情因為漁民的漁權被侵害是經常發生的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8505.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8530.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
海域被倒採這個沙石形成水域的不安那個水面下水流的問題在澎湖那邊也常遇到所以該執法還是要執法這個執法跟非法者就像警察在追違法者兩個扭打在一起沒有人會想那個叫互毆啦那個叫做拒捕啦那個叫妨礙公務執法者跟違法者真是有身份的差別的人道救援有人道救援的差別的 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8531.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8550.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
因為還有兩個失蹤我接下來要請教陸軍我們在東定島是有駐軍的嘛就在旁邊嘛所以這兩個失蹤我們當然希望能夠生還不管哪一國的人我們都不希望有人命的損傷那這兩個失蹤可能會有水流的漂流可能會到岸上等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8552.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8579.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我們有沒有請東定島的守軍注意一下水面上跟灘頭報告委員這一點剛剛在前面的委員提詢的時候署長已經有報告過了其實整個軍防部、東定島都是藉由這個案記在協助搜索海上的有無生還者或是任何可疑的跡象所以目前還沒有收獲什麼島上目前現在有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8581.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8610.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
Channel 72就是72號頻道大概156.625MHz這一個無線電頻道這是海事頻道民間就傳出來了聽到中共共軍或者中國方面要求他也是以我要找我們失蹤的漁民希望他們要登東定島來協助搜索這個事情他也把頻道列出來了那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8612.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8628.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
參謀長有或沒有或不說我都可以尊重有沒有這個事情東定島跟金防部沒有接到這樣的需求沒有接到這樣的請求這個無線電的訊號內容有沒有聽過沒有東定島本身的駐軍跟金門防衛指揮部沒有接收到這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8630.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8653.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我要提醒參謀長,民間在聽這些頻道的人都會錄音,所以如果有這樣的聲音是偽造呢?還是我們沒有注意到?因為我剛剛也都有掌握跟查證,我跟委員報告,第一點沒有這樣的需求第二點,在我們的規則上面我們也不會允許共軍登島搜索 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8653.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8654.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
兩位請回,我現在請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8680.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8697.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
報告委員我給您更正一下好不好因為在收救的狀況之下如果對方經由我們海事單位申請許可對他就可以進入到我們的水域我們曾經去年還簽都有我們都有許可過那今天早上也是在許可的狀況之下就是說我們國家我們的水域內當然我們來負責你要進來要經過許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8706.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8725.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
現在我們是聯合在搜救他們在我們縣內的現在有4艘海巡2艘那個是許可的狀況我們有4艘那還有2艘海警在縣外所以整個的搜救行動你再講一次他們有4艘他們的公務船在我們的縣內那他有經過申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8726.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8745.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
都經過申請所以我們現在在協力在做這個搜尋你知道這證明什麼嗎你知道這證明什麼事情那就是我們的水域嘛我們其實不用在政治上找彼此的麻煩你申請人道救援我們許可把他升高給政治化說什麼要派他們的海監船海軍船來我們的線的巡邏這是不可能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8747.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8775.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
不是只有這一次這樣做我們過去也都是人道救援方面在救生救難方面我們一定是最快的時間這個部分就是說因為之前我知道有一次直升機掉下來有類似這樣情形就是我們的水域我們管理我們的水域是我們的法權跟我們的主權但是經由申請許可人道救援我們是可以允許的那這一次就有4艘中國公共船他們提出申請我們許可讓他進來搜救這一艘中國的漁船這樣沒有錯嗎沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8776.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8789.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那這才是一個道理嘛動不動就說那個水域也是他的基本水域也他們管的來來去去都由他這個叫政治化把一個國際規範複雜化對兩邊都不好兩位請回我接下來請教部長來部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8796.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8819.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
部長剛才我們從周署長那邊就聽到了他們要進行搜救四艘船也是他們主動提出申請我們許可進到我們的縣內來搜救接下來就發生這個事情了中國的國台辦說台灣海峽它有管轄權我不加任何註解是他們今天宣布的我拿辦公室的公文在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8821.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8841.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
你身為我們國家的國防部長,你對他們這樣的說法有什麼樣的想法?中共最近講了很多話語,但我們有一個原則,我們當初既定的,我們有我們的主權,我們的治權,所以都是一個具體的事實,所以他怎麼講,但我們還堅守我們的論調,而且堅守我們的造型。 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8843.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8866.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
看台灣海峽是他有國際水域也有我們的領海的部分就看12海里幾海里那通常緩衝區在20日海里外嘛我們有個緩衝區所以當他講說台灣海峽都有管轄權當然這是一個政治語言啦依照上這個漁船的情形他要進來的時候他還是照規矩申請許可進來守規矩我們誇獎他你就照國際規範來 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8867.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8882.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
但他講說台灣海峽他有管轄權我再講一次目前的台灣海峽國際上各國都認定他有國際海域的部分也有我們領海的部分但中國如果這樣講他如果要執行他所謂的管轄權的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8884.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8901.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
進到我們的接近緩衝帶的時候是由海軍負責還是海巡負責?加州有一個程序,剛才海巡署也講得很清楚他有軍事動作的話一定是海軍來負責看他是怎麼做?對,那加州他講他有管轄權,那我們有我們的治權 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8903.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8917.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
對,我們有我們的主權跟治權有我們的主權我要提醒就是說在灰色地帶他現在都是先打法理戰模糊了之後就進行灰色地帶壓迫壓迫的時候有時候他會用他的海警 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8919.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8923.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這是他一貫的套路他在菲律賓這樣幹他在越南也這樣幹中國在東海也是這樣做所以當他在模糊化這個管轄權或者無視國際規範的時候我覺得我們在應處的標準作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8946.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8963.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
可能要好好思考一下這是一個嚴肅的課題不管在軍團裡面討論或者是海巡跟我們的海軍要討論出一個應處的做法否則這樣一直壓迫下去呢我就要提一件事情我們到那個崇禎賀祖那一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8964.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8992.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我們從2016年開始我們國家的戰略的基本構想想定是防衛固守重層嚇阻一層一層我們固守之後呢具體的作為是具體筆案所以我們會有一些遠距遙攻精準性的我把它叫做積極性防禦武器包含美方賣給我們的相關的武器射程300公里幾百公里的那個大概就是具體筆案 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8994.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9004.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
擊敵海上、毀敵水際、堅敵灘頭那時候我們常常講後面有一句叫做國土防衛大概這整個構想想定是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9005.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9034.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
但是當你在重層嚇阻我們就像一個洋蔥一樣外國人把它叫做什麼把它取名叫做豪豬戰術其實就像洋蔥一層一層來保護我們的國家2300萬人可是你有沒有發現灰色地帶衝突它是反過來像在剝洋蔥一樣一條一塊一塊把你壓迫去除掉金門水域、西南空域、東北角這個在Milco在那個宮古海峽那邊所以我請教部長齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9035.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9060.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
中國的灰色地帶衝突威脅．會不會形成一種撥洋蔥的方式．把我們重層嚇阻的這一層一層．把你的空間一直往內壓縮．你有沒有感受到這個事情．你們的應處之道是什麼他們現在用這個方法．所以我講灰色不光地帶．很多事件配合他的三戰．不管是心理、輿論跟法律．看來他一步一步．但對我們國際來講的話． |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9061.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9078.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我應該也講的不管是蠔豬也好或洋蔥也好我們最外層皮就已經在那個線上了沒有讓他一層層這樣撥的空間我們也不容許他你現在講是沒有讓他有撥的空間因為我還有一個題目要問我希望國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9078.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9102.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
具體提出每一層每一層怎麼守住洋蔥被剝掉了要再推回去很難我了解我跟委員報告我們現在在做每一年不管是任何演訓也就炒出來有什麼狀況我怎麼處理應變的時間跟應變的方法跟應變的距離對安全很重要對各國來注意這邊的局勢也很重要我最後請教你無人機防禦系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9105.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9106.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我看到你們現在提出一個什麼9億要採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9110.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9130.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
遙控無人機防禦系統這個大概就是上次烈雨發生那個事件之後我們各離島基地要建構這個防禦系統對不對我們在上一屆的最後一個會期有針對這個系統我們發現我們那個標案有問題你們也拉下來重來了本席現在好奇要請問你們回覆本席這邊說是9億後來媒體報導你要買26套你們現在是計劃用9億來添購26套防禦系統嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9136.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9141.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
這個有列入到預算書表是113、114兩個年度是9億8900多萬由陸軍統建採購26套我第二個問題主席抱歉我借你一分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9155.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9173.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我們當時為什麼會有一個科研整合案因為要把主被動雷達以及攔截它的干擾系統要整合在一起嘛那因為國內沒有業者會整合在一起所以我們弄了兩個科研案然後被我們點出來荒謬的地方是你們竟然讓兩個科研案同時讓一家做 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9174.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9189.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
他就是不會做你還讓他一家做兩套一次要買兩套後來這個案子部長才是拉下來了我現在好奇的是這個整合的POC測試應該是系統整合後的測試可是你們這個採購案怎麼變成主動雷達測試POC被動雷達測試POC干擾測試你們變成單項測試有這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9195.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9216.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
委員這個POC這個所謂的概念性的測試它就是為了確保對概念驗證它就是為了確保國內廠商有整合系統做POC還是單向單向做POC整個組合起來的不是單向單向對你如果單向單向的話我只依你們它就是個實體 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9217.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9218.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9249.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9263.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的邱部長還有海巡署的這個署長邱部長海洋會的副主委海巡署長還有海委員好兩位長官好這個前面委員問到我還是問這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9277.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9292.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
大陸三條漁船進到苗栗的六里的領海裏面,這是不是已經進入我們的海域裏面了,正式海域裏面,是不是?正確如果按照邱國正部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9300.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9314.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
你在這裡上個禮拜吧,你講的實體越界第1集覆落了,怎麼都沒有了,點點然後呢,海巡的船,派了一艘兩艘,風浪太大了,趕快回來,雷達監控萬一他們是針對有另外的企圖,我們怎麼辦?所以這個事情,邱部長我請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9326.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9342.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
你這個第一集說啊後面討論很多討論啊你就第一集啊講得太太快第二個講得太粗糙因為事實上後來你們的你們相關的長官包括國防部副部長在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9343.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9346.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
還有誰?還有包括你講的第1集都說這裡面還有前提喔還要經過什麼病室啊還要經過這個還要經過那個確定是這個非友善的才有第1集復代條件很長但是你那時候在這裡不是這樣子喔斬釘截鐵實體越界第1集扁下去這樣讓大家覺得說唉唷這樣是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9369.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9385.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
第一集一出來馬上就兩岸就開戰了國防委員報告爭議的訊息怎麼出來的就諸如此類這就一個爭議的訊息我講的我特別有補充講所謂第一集你越界但這個之前一定有個程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9386.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9404.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
所以後來第二天我們副部長做這個補充他講得很周延的我還該講我前面可能沒有這樣講那麼清楚他反而幫我補上任何一樣事情國軍第一個考到慎戰謹慎的慎不要輕啟戰端我沒有這樣講哦我們講的要一步一步來但是呢假如說你到最後為什麼有個硬戰不必戰呢那個必就是我要接應你 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9417.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9434.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
經過警告,經過確認,你還是不聽,那我們最後尋死了,我就把你當作你的第一級,我是尋死我的反制自衛權,清清楚楚。那現在甲裝監獄被咬到一句話,又啊什麼樣了,我實在沒有辦法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9438.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9442.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我沒有認為哪個來者不善,一定經過一個程序,比如說他走過來,我怎麼會認為他來者不善呢?當然他有動作了,那我當然要做一個反應了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9462.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9469.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
所以同樣道理由個人到國家都如此沒有貿然的現在看了還過來準備要打架了你這樣講美國總統拜登剛才有人提到了提了1億美金幫助我們這個我們都歡迎細節不講但是他講了因為選舉到了他跟川普都一樣都是拼命的反中拿台灣當籌碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9488.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9490.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
提到大陸若犯台,美國會保衛台灣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9503.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9518.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我跟委員報告很多人問我這個問題我就跟他一再回應也是一樣國軍任何一個演訓他的這個想定你去翻翻看有哪一篇是講一旦有外來的力量這個資源了我們怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9519.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9530.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
沒有,所以這些國家自己就講了多少次我要為人家一句話,哇就變成一個好懷疑懷疑我們,沒有什麼好懷疑的我沒有懷疑,我只是弄清楚了我覺得保護國家,不會仰賴任何的外援沒有,我要請教你是大家要知道因為國內相當多的人會認為只要台海發生戰爭,美國一定出兵我沒有這樣講過我就問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9545.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9545.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我跟委員報告我們盡量避免作戰但作戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9564.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9566.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我再請教你因為這問題你也回答過但是我要再確定一遍為什麼這樣等一下說 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9581.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9594.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
這個過去的國防部長李捷說我們單獨撐可以撐兩個禮拜他講的等到美國來幫忙然後顏明也是當國防部長他說一個月然後呢這個高華樹他最少一個禮拜以上劉和謙前參謀總長他說以兩週為目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9607.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9631.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
請問我們邱部長你有沒有目標說我最少要打到什麼或者說我不管為什麼要打到一比一組一定要打到贏每個專家學者他的立論也有他的基礎這是國防部長 前任國防部長我大概都有專家學者但我的界定很簡單現在台灣防衛作戰是個防衛作戰而且已經到國土防衛階段那防衛階段也是打到 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9633.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9662.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
你通通哪怕被殲滅了你五星旗槍都沒有插到國防部我跟你講這仗他白打所以我們要撐什麼你如果說他我不知道但我只要有一個人在所以我跟同仁講我們一旦作戰了只有王將沒有降軍就這個用意就一兵一卒嘛打多久我也不知道但看他要打多久好請問你美軍在附近日本在哪裡附近如果要來幫忙台灣最快多久時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9662.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9663.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
所以這樣的國防部長要繼續當啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9687.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9707.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
其他的國防部長都是兩個禮拜最多一個月啊你的話就一直打下去了不是我跟委員報告我剛剛已經講過任何一個專案學者就算過往前輩他們講話我沒有否定喔他有他的立任他當時思考的是某個事我現在想講的一夜不在場我難道就打到海岸線就沒有了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9708.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9714.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
所以才有國土防衛城鎮作戰這個科普一直出來簡單來講沒有誤解我下一個簡單結論就是邱國正點兩點只要五星旗沒有查到總統府一直打下去我講國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9729.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9746.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我們不跟總統府在隔壁而已啊不不不這不一樣在隔壁而已啊在隔壁啊國軍啊國軍最後一兵一卒這不是口號所以總統府差五星旗繼續打我沒講總統府要講那個主委員你一講我沒有意見嘛對啊你就搞到我頭上來點點我沒有講點法不能這樣亂點的賴思寶全世界沒啥理OK好我沒意見沒有沒有我沒講完你先不要下去喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9756.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9763.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
因為我問你的你睡不著覺結果變成這個討論幾天聽說這媒體說的話說高層對你很不爽所以因此要把你換掉真的嗎哪位高層我不知道媒體寫的要不要換掉我也不知道媒體在後面都在後面高層都要講出來對不對都要講有沒有高層很芥蒂高層多層欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9781.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9801.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
請問你520之後你被換掉你會不會很不爽有什麼不爽的政務官去留沒有任何人道你沒有企圖心想要繼續做中華民國我已經跟同仁講得很清楚我不是三頭六臂我不要把國軍造成一個怎麼樣的地步但我要維持國軍的平穩 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9803.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9820.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
萬一你離開了萬一你被換掉你有沒有一絲絲的遺憾哪件事情沒有做完就離開會不會有沒有不會欸因為這個政策它有延續性吧我沒做完後面才會一樣做嘛所以不會覺得委屈不會不會委屈我原來聽你委屈啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9821.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9836.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
而且我覺得我很罪惡感因為我問了你睡不著覺結果你被換掉沒有沒有不會沒有這回事啦我剛剛有跟記者講我們國際一個責任的概念就跟每個當主觀的所見所以你如果萬一被換掉不能怪我事情做不好頭會痛的最後一點我跟你講一個東西這個叫國際危機組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9853.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9873.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
這個組織發表一篇若若燈關於金門撞船,也不是撞船,金門那個事件的事情他寫一個US and China Continuous Talks to Management Competition我們的海域 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9875.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9901.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
為什麼要這兩大國在那裡continue to talk為什麼他們要繼續談這個東西這個東西你看了我不知道國防部長你看了會不會生氣我看了都很生氣啊為什麼你們談這個東西我也覺得很奇怪這個東西我也覺得這個東西很奇怪我為什麼生氣不了解沒什麼好氣不氣的我們國家環境就如此但我們做好我們本務工作這有什麼好氣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9903.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9930.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我覺得我們中華民國主權獨立國家為什麼我們家裡的事情這兩大國好像他們現在外界都講啊中國大陸跟美國共管台灣海域共管台灣這句話你同意嗎各種言論紛紛擾擾同意不同意我怎麼會同意呢不能同意啊我們自己的海域自己管啦自己的國家自己管啦不是他們兩個人任何人都不會同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9931.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9955.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
所以他們常常中國大陸跟美國講什麼來決定台灣我個人不接受我們要有大聲的真的要捍衛台灣愛台灣愛這樣啦不是說美國跟中國大陸講的現在看起來就這個味道說國際海域什麼海域台灣的命運都他們兩個在決定那件事情沒有這回事這個部長要硬起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9957.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9958.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我們現在先休息五分鐘,待會繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10313.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10313.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
主席有請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10346.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10363.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
國防部長今天你報告開頭就說這份報告裡面就說以常態化灰色地帶侵擾並用認知作戰打擊與混淆國際視聽企圖片面改變台海現狀升高區域衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10364.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10385.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
所以這是您對近來我們兩岸之間的一個狀況的描述所以我認為部長你之前說會睡不著覺這是對國家安全的憂心那這也是國防部長的責任感那這一點我表示肯定但是我有一個感覺不知道部長有沒有同樣的感覺我覺得好像我最近已經質詢了快20場的質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10388.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10405.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
各部會相關的官員我感覺到好像眾人皆睡你獨醒阿你有沒有這個感覺阿不會欸不會我跟委員報不會這樣子不會喔那我來講齁這個整個行政團隊我也執行過行政院長這個陳建仁我們管委會海委會的主委管碧玲 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10406.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10424.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
然後邱泰山陸委會主委那甚至我們的國安局局長蔡明彥都說目前沒有任何情資顯示臺海緊張情勢有持續升高而且他強調他有在睡覺那為什麼大家可以睡得很好那你一個人就醒得很痛苦呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10424.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10454.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
國防委員給我一點時間我對您要做說明好不好請說國軍考量事情有真後以後有事情以後還有很多假定事項但這個假定事項都是從最壞的來做一個打算所以我們想要做最壞的打算以便於我們做最好的準備所以現在這個立場背景不一樣所以我有這種考量我並不認為假定事項沒有這種考量就是好像不憂國憂民我跟部長講我就是肯定你這樣的憂國憂民 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10455.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10481.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
做最壞打算所以我要講其他部會真的好像都在做最好打算的感覺那我要再問三立有一個獨家新聞他說總統府高層說你是自走炮還致電給你來要去了解你的發言原意而且你的屢屢爭議發言讓府方很頭痛我想問第一個你認同自走炮這個批評嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10482.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10505.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我沒有意見,因為人家給我取什麼外號,他左眼如何,我都沒有意見啊,他的什麼出發點我也不了解,但我要跟委員報告,但我跟委員報告,到目前為止沒有人問我,你為什麼要這樣發言,為什麼要那樣發言。那我要想請教您,您知道就是我剛剛講過質詢過很多的官員, |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10508.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10536.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我一個感覺好像天下本太平自走炮自擾之習近平喊和平大家一起安心睡的感覺所以我想要請教最近有一個討論的話題因為習近平重生和平統一那很多人就看到說你看他都喊和平統一對不對那就代表和平就不會動武那我想請問您是這樣嗎你相信習近平 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10537.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10556.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我問委員報告我沒有什麼相信不相信但我們國軍在國軍部隊面待久了以後有些事情決定是一個定律就是因為人家一句話而改變了自己的初衷因為和平那我們就不要戰備了嗎?不會因為有和平所以我們就不要鬆懈嗎?不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10558.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10578.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
所以我覺得在這一方面我是一個蠻好的一個跟國軍同仁一樣的一個大原則絕對抓住,不會人家一句話我們就改變我們自己就放鬆或緊繃了,所以人家也不會講一句話我就變很緊張整個方寸就亂了,我想這是很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10578.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10595.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我覺得這部長的態度是正確的你也不能因為習近平一句話要喊和平統一好像就太平無事一樣那該要做的準備當然是要做準備但是下一個我就要問您因為今天您的報告是面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅影響與應處作為可是我發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10601.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10626.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
這個全篇報告只字未提美國、日本那意思是在面對中共常態化的侵擾威脅所以日本跟美國因素不重要嗎?不是不重要,但我們全部不指望因為他到底會採取什麼樣一個反應或動作我們是完全不知道的所以我們不能把它列為我們認為他會如何這樣的話會有違我們國軍建軍備在一個概念的 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10627.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10634.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那我想請教可是事實上我們政府的歷次兵推也會把美國的狀況考量進去嗎?是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10647.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10671.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我最起碼軍事當中兵推我沒有遇過這個狀況是我是講說整個政府在做所謂的兩岸的兵推會不會把美國跟日本因素考慮進去因為它每個層次不同所以為什麼對我有什麼評論我是完全在一個軍事立場來設想那我就從軍事立場來請教我們部長其實坦白講過去我看到民進黨的朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10671.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10701.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
也是不斷的暗示跟明示台海有事美日不會做事那我想請問如果中共真的我們最不想要的結果武力犯台你覺得美國會介入嗎日本會介入嗎我不知道所以我就一再強調我們想定沒有這種想定就代表我不能夠預判我講的很多話軍事術語雖然聽來好像有點好像很古板但蠻受用的要以不可見之力要 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10701.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10706.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
我這樣問好了我們就拿烏克蘭戰爭來做一個類比那烏俄開戰美國跟歐洲各國皆會聲援都有聲援沒錯吧第一個當然第一個等級就是譴責俄國 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10725.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10742.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
就歐洲跟美國的幾個國家都譴責俄國嘛 對不對第二個等級是經濟制裁嘛祭出很多經濟制裁的措施第三個等級是提供武器跟軍事援助嘛 對不對那可是到目前為止有沒有到第四個等級就是派兵參戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10743.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10759.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
目前我剛剛講了從來口會、實會我們都沒有考慮過口會旁邊拉拉隊一樣喊一喊換成我也喊一喊加油到底有沒有實會這是很重要的部長完全知道我要問什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10760.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10780.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
就是說前面譴責其實只是一種口惠當然經濟制裁提供武器軍事援助也還是有實質可是事實上很多在討論當中都把它界定到最後一個等級就是派兵參戰但實際上之前日本官房長官其實他就說過一段話我看部長也有回應嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10780.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10807.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
他說他不能認同台灣有事日本有事的觀點他認為兩岸如果爆發戰爭日本協防台灣可能面臨重大的損失所以台灣不應期待日本協防台灣這句話其實指的也不只是日本啦也包括美國因素所以在你的戰備考量之下我們就是自己國家自己救嘛您是這樣說嘛我也是這樣認為接下來我想請教您下一個問題我想請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10810.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10833.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
您知道這個2021.2021年疫情期間有位網友在PTT上辱罵陳時中攻擊台灣防疫而且散播親中言論還可惡要大家移除衛福部的LINE帳號及管家我想請問您這算不算是有利中共不利台灣的訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10835.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10857.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我跟委員剛剛有問到我們界定就是說你發表言論利於敵方不利於我方那你覺得這個訊息算不算利於敵方不利於我方當然也算了所以他就是在地協議權對 是不是有違反了什麼規定那不是我的責任那我跟部長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10858.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10873.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
王定宇有痛批這是大陸滲透PTT搞認知作戰而且網友收錢擾亂台灣蔡英文在臉書也附和王定宇可是你知道最後被查出來這一起所謂王定宇的中共擾亂台灣事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10875.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10889.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
這個網友是范雲的學生綠營的寫手林偉峰自導自演他的老婆還是當時民進黨媒體社群中心副主任我想請問林偉峰是不是您定義的在地協力者中共在地協力者 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10890.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10913.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我跟委員報這個人我不認得我對一個不認得的人我沒辦法去做一個評論當然啦那我跟你講照這個標準林偉峰就是中共在地協力者而背後的民進黨千絲萬縷的關係民進黨也是中共在地協力者嗎我最後還是給部長前面其實我都很肯定你但您這句話說真的我覺得講得不夠精確 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10915.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10939.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
因為很多東西事實上要馬上所謂的用所謂有利不利來去做一個判準還是要回到法律的標準來看對不對那事實上犯法就抓去關啊這我也贊成所以請部長以後這類型的說法可能要更精確一點點是謝謝委員我也要給我幾秒鐘那天我在這個大院會裡的報告我有講這一話所以如何界定這不是我國防部的能力範圍要經過檢調單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10941.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10942.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
接下來請王宏威委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10975.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10978.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
剛才幾位委員都有提到你回應民進黨立委講到的在地協力者的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11000.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11015.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那如同您剛才自己說的最後他到底有沒有定罪有沒有法律問題是在檢調、要調查還有你也承認這個判定的標準很困難你可能也說不出所以然 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11016.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11045.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
那比如說問你的沈伯洋委員他竟然告訴你是說可以用光譜來判定啊我都不曉得是哪門子的這個法律見解用光譜用政治光譜嗎所以我具體的建議啊部長你是國防部長因為你在這個部分並不是專業比如說甚至提到裡面網路的一些反串的言論所以其實你真的大可不必去談這個所謂在地協力者的一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11046.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11046.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
請周署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11066.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11082.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
委員長,剛才早上你們發一個新聞稿,就是今天翻覆的漁船,它是在東定海域1.07海里,東定島,新南方1.07海里翻覆的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11083.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11100.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
所以我想請問一下,所以它搬赴的地點是應該在我們的禁限制海域裡面嗎?因為非常非常的近,是吧?是,它是在東定島,因為東定離金門有15海里遠,也就是說,對,它在東定島的禁限制水域內。 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11104.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11107.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
我們的巡防體在線上巡邏,我剛剛有報告,我們在我們的金門附近的水域在巡邏 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11126.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11148.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
所以沒有針對這艘漁船去特別的去接近它?沒有,沒有針對這一艘特別去接近它,因為我們離15海裏,15海裏就是大概將近30公裏的概念所以我們當時我們的巡防艇是距離這個翻覆的漁船其實很遠,但它離東帝島非常近 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11149.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11161.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
這個翻覆的漁船離東定島只有1.07海浪對啊,非常近啊好,所以我的問題是我們到目前為止有沒有掌握到它到底為什麼翻覆呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11162.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11179.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
目前我們不得而知但是我們現在所有的船隻都在現場在救援現場的海象如何現在的海象因為他沒有我們去驅離沒有我們去追撞的問題嗎沒有都沒有完全排除是那有沒有可能是因為海象的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11179.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11194.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
有可能是海象的問題因為這兩天封面經過時好時壞那像這樣子的一個船隻啊它通常的船體的狀況都不會很好所以為什麼我們在過去幾年當中經常會發現類似的這種漁船經常會沉沒我們經常會有這種類似的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11200.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11214.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
不排除有海象問題因為它離東定島這麼近好像當地可能等到退潮的時候甚至也不排除因為它現在這個船體還在漂來漂去嘛那有可能在我們東定島的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11219.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11241.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
現在目前他最近我剛剛11點15分接到的通報是在東地西南的0.05海裡的位置在只剩下一個圍竿了那我們的同仁圍竿也就是說他船體本身都已經翻覆在水線以下了 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11245.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11257.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我們現在海巡隊的潛水人員大概在10分鐘前已經下水了我們現在要到這個整個船艙裡面去看有沒有生還者還有兩位失蹤所以以現在的狀況來講他非常有可能應該說是0.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11265.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11266.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
他如果擱淺在我們的海岸上 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11284.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11299.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我們是不會同意就是如果大陸方面他們希望能夠去登船也是去看有沒有生還者也好或者是檢查一下船體等等之類的我們會同意他們去登船 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11300.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11305.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我相信應該會同意他們的救難的人員也到現場去但是我相信這個僅止於海面 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11316.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11319.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
因為這件事離我們這一次的就前面的這個機下海域的這個爭議的事件時間非常短那麼因為之前呢其實呢後來是不歡而散 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11337.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11364.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
談判破裂而造成兩岸之間的緊張然後呢其實對方呢也開始做了一些包含說台灣沒有國際海域等等之類那所以以部長的判斷在這一次的事件裡面第一個我們剛講說可以完全排除有關於是因為我們重設了驅離或者是有之前像是不是有追贓的狀況是可以完全排除那而且呢我們也 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11366.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11375.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
根據對岸的一個要求事實上我們也派出4艘船一起去救援我跟證我們現在是6艘我們又加了2艘從4艘變6艘 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11381.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11409.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
一共出動6艘船另外我們也請軍防部支援專業潛水人員他們有專業潛水人員在軍防部軍方也有支援而且東定島的守軍現在全部在岸際加強搜索因為他畢竟離岸很近大概2000碼左右的狀況用高倍望遠鏡你都可以看得到他只要一搜索到他就會通知我們海巡我們立刻會 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11412.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11436.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我想請教部長．待會請教署長這個事件其實就是我們已經展開極高度的就是人道救援的一個不管是人力配置還有我們的態度所以部長你覺得這次的事件有沒有助於和緩在之前因為驚嚇這個撞船事件造成的兩岸緊張的情勢你覺得是 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11438.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11452.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
一樣還是升高還是你覺得有可能和緩我覺得剛剛凱旭說明已經很清楚如果照這種狀況來走的話他不至於惡化應該說還算蠻平順因為大家都基於一個人道救援的做法也沒有為難的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11464.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11479.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
其實我必須講因為它翻船的地點非常非常近已經真的在其實已經是非常非常接近東定島了就像我們講限制海域但是我們還是本於我們的人道救援精神就是並不會因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11480.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11507.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
有任何的說我們今天去檢討你有沒有進來我們的禁縣這個海域所以署長最後一點點時間你覺得這個事件有沒有辦法和緩之前那個緊張的氣氛跟委員報告我的評估是跟部長一樣我們希望希望因為我們在這個金下水域我早上特別強調它很狹窄經常會發生這樣子的事件那我們經常在過去沒有發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11514.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11533.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
今天早上我再跟委員補充報告今天早上我們第一時間就跟對岸的執法區隊立刻聯繫他現在連把6個人的人名哪些是生的哪些是死的哪些是失蹤人民全部都告訴我們海巡所以我們的互通是沒有問題的我們在過去是這樣做我們現在還是這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11535.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11536.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11566.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11566.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
楊瓊英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11591.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11613.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
委員早昨天我們也討論過我也很歡喜聽到您說之前發生的事情呢你們不放棄繼續來溝通各自在談判的過程當中雖然15次但是呢雙方雖然外界所謂的破局但是你仍舊認為沒有破局 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11614.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11640.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
是雙方將自己的歧異的意見帶回去再研議沒有想到今天又發生了這樣的事情所以第一時間怎麼會知道呢?我們今天早上6點兩分的時候接到我們國搜中心的通知我們自己國搜中心?我們國搜中心當然國搜中心是經由對岸的一個搜救的單位通知我們對岸立即通知我們?對,我們請求我們能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11641.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11642.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
共同來參與救援 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11658.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11680.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
第一時間就把線上的巡邏艇直接就調到東定去直接就航往東定後續我們從我們的港內又陸續派了三艘我們到了現場之後我們看整個搜索的狀況因為東定島很近所以我們考量到吃水的問題我們又加派了一艘CP艇 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11681.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11684.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
對方的船隻也是有4艘在線內,2艘在線外,也是6艘在那邊參與救援 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11704.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11728.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
各項的救援資訊現在雙方都經由我們日常的一個通信的管道我們跟對方的執法區隊或者是海巡的單位跟我們共同聯繫那都互通有無我們採取什麼行動他們可能未來會派直升機來或怎麼樣他們都有跟我們提出一些溝通以及申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11729.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11729.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
之所以請署長你說明整個的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11751.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11754.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
請大家放心,我們也希望大家團結 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11767.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11767.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11798.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11820.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
部長好。部長,這個人大他們兩會目前政協跟人大開完會,日前結束。那國安局長在備詢的當中他有說了,他說沒有情緒顯示台海緊張情勢升高。那部長您的看法是不是跟國安局長的方向是一樣的呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11820.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11843.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我跟委員報告,我們每個人成績不同,人家講數位有專攻,他們果然在考量成績,把政治、經濟、環境都發脾氣。軍事方面就完全看,如果敵人有爭後,我們就要往下研判。所以立場不一樣,所以我們看法不見得一樣,但沒有講說互相要打點誰的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11846.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11857.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
對,但是他目前說是沒有,其實認為說是緊張情緒會升高,那您的看法呢?我們都有見到,但是我們看到眼前有些在海上空中的狀況,我們認為在軍事方面我們不能夠鬆懈 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11862.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11877.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
這個就是大家對部長您的努力我想草野大家都非常非常的肯定那我們的目的也就是希望不要讓民眾有所憂心恐慌這個我想是政府很重要的一個責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11878.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11894.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以現階段認為在軍事方面是還是有一些狀況但是在國安局方面是認為沒有升高所以當然你有很多的步驟會去應對所以本期要請教在我們國防預算裡頭我們年年當然是增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11895.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11914.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
但是113年度裡頭我們的新的預算是6068億創了歷史的新高GDP佔了2.5%所以當然還有其他的國家相對的特別預算等等所以本期要請教我們在113年度裡頭會不會增加到GDP的佔比3%請做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11917.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11934.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
這我不敢保證,因為國防預算定定有很多因素,要看國家財力還有整個行的哪個部會是重點工作。我們上一年都有6,068億,當初特別預算等等都包含在裡面的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11938.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11961.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
我們也期望講能夠保持一個一定的水準但我們不能夠強求因為畢竟國家整體的預算在國防預算當中已緩我不能不幫別的部會來考慮但是我們會發表我們的意見需求的時候還是會提出所以還是會增加我可以這麼解讀嗎可以可以這樣子那接下來本校請問今年1月份的時候華爾街日報也報導我們向美國訂購的約190億美元的飛彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11968.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11970.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
美國對於目前其中有許多訂單的交付還要拖,還要拖了好幾年。除了報導的多管火箭系統、無人機、戰車 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11988.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12009.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
余磊在去年預算中心也提出了我們也努力努力去追光光在光刺針的這個飛彈呢我們就吹了11次是嗎那目前進度如何呢我跟各位報告我們這個採購方面或人家有任何一個軍購方面的工作很多狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12010.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12011.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
委員會副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12037.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12054.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
本席可以這麼解讀嗎?也就是當時你簽約的時間點,不管它的進度怎麼樣,到最後都會依照契約的時間點歸位?是如此嗎?可以這樣講,對。可以這麼說嗎?是這樣子啊。是這樣子我們就放心了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12057.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12060.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
因為民眾有疑慮,如果一直慢,會不會影響到我們整個國防的部件成效? |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12082.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12107.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
任何一個武器中央籌購以後雖然這是一個建案但是我們有什麼備案備案不就依賴這個備案但我要跟委員報告你這句話就對了本席認同不依賴這個備案所以我們要依照我們的腳程對我們要按照這個程序來對所以目前民眾所疑慮的會不會因為研製而導致我們的部件有成效的降低不會有這個疑慮吧在你的任內 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12109.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12133.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
因為大家都很信任你,在你的任內應該不會有這個疑慮吧?不用有這個疑慮,光在我在我任內啊,官部的工作它都有一個節點管控的,不是講因為我...好,部長你客氣,但是我們希望啦,在我們整個的國防部件它的成效是依照我們的預定角度,讓我們有放心。好,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝楊委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12138.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12141.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
接下來請鄭天才委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12170.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12197.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
主席、各位委員、有請部長請邱部長部長辛苦了上禮拜我有質詢有關在台東戰備跑道的事情國防部特別指派了空軍參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12200.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12206.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
這個到臺東關山在12號12號進行這個說明會臺東關山的鄉親反對在臺九縣外環道設置戰備跑道這個臺東縣勞慶林縣長建議可以東移與河堤共過臺東的鄉親花蓮的鄉親 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12232.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12255.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
對於這個備戰,絕對是支持的,像這個嘉山基地的新屁,像這個自航基地的新建,這個臺東花蓮的鄉親,絕對是支持。這個,所以東宜與合體共構,這個是臺東的鄉親的一個建議,然後縣長的建議也是這樣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12256.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12262.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
本席在上禮拜質詢的時候也提到可以跟花東快速公路 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12266.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12286.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
建在這個花東快速公路的這個因為現在正在做可行性評估所以這個部分如果你們支持的話會更快所以我們是希望是這樣讓這個有限的資源尤其是現在的那個關山那個地方正好都是糧田 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12287.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12300.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
也是糧食首席戰爭的時候糧食更重要所以這個部分請國防部能夠跟交通部 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12304.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12328.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
來協調他們在做規劃新建的時候就把它一併的規劃在這裡面部長可以嗎?可以,我上午黃偉永很關切這個問題所以可能之前跟部落之間的協調我不知道做了,可能有欠缺周圍的地方但我們空心也很有誠意啦希望這個戰備跟這個地方建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12329.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12332.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
若先建在這個就像老縣長所建議的東移與合體共構 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12355.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12380.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
花東快速道路花東快速公路的這個位置它的路線就是以合體共過就是以合體共過會非常非常的適合這個部分對於這個未來新建也會比較容易也會這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12383.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12410.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
人民會更支持人民會更支持所以這個部分請這個國防部能夠盡快跟這個交通部去協調好不好好我跟委員報告我初步看到這個他有建議講戰備跑道不要順便跟地方公路切應該要切割但這個的意味就則是體大好不好這個的意味加上要考慮這個問題那可能全盤都跟這個完全不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12411.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12438.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我們請空軍做評估以後也不是說完全切割啦也不是說完全切割所以嘛我們在進一步的協調上面跑到像屏東就是在公路上這個都知道的這個只要是不影響這個相關人民的這個相關的這些資源避開這個糧倉這個大家都會去支持好我們接下來談這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12441.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12468.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
致航機場致航機場在興建的時候這個現在致航機場啊原來我們的部落在裡面像這個交入欄部落十三部落原來都在致航機場裡面因為要興建致航機場我們的部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12469.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12496.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
就遷移到治航機場的旁邊我們都非常的配合就遷到治航機場的旁邊在幾十年來我們就是忍受了這個噪音噪音所以噪音的部分忍受了非常非常的多年本席也質詢過很多次但是因為礙於 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12500.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12522.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
主計總署給你們的經費不足這個我常常舉例子按照這個媒體的報導而且是事實噪音補償竟然要等30年過去的噪音補償是什麼呢因為限於法令的問題你們都是用那個冷氣機嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12525.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12546.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
補助經費買冷氣機但是要等30年我常常擠那個組織總署的那個對於那個政府機關的冷氣機啊八九年就可以換新的但是我們要等30年才能夠輪啊它用輪的一個里一個里一個里這樣輪啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12549.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12549.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12573.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12595.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
就在110年從109年開始提修正噪音管制法這個也在110年1月20號通過了這個噪音管制法特別明定可以跟這個民航的軍民合用的機場 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12598.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12608.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
像軍營合用的或是民航的機場啊,它是每年補償啊,每年發補償啊但是現在這個修法已經114年1月20號,現在113年囉,111213 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12619.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12647.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
我的了解是這樣當然我沒有最新的資料上次說要請提供還沒有提供要趕快提供給我但是我的了解國防部要堅定的配合法律的修正就要補償就用補償的方式用經費啦為什麼呢你說冷氣機它不可能等那麼久我只好先買了用字買了 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12649.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12661.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
阿你現在說還是用冷氣機我已經買了阿不能等那麼久阿對不對所以你還是用跟民航民用機場的他們都用現金阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12663.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12688.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
通信先經讓人民自己做怎麼樣去處理這個是但是你們一直太尊重那個什麼那個小組的會議啊你們稱為什麼趙感小組那個小組那個成員成員橫眼的那個理當成員大部分的成員不是在那個所以應該要尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12689.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12701.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
最靠近機場的這些民眾的意見,可以嗎?好,我請空軍再去好好去,但據我了解想說當採用這個方法也是經過討論過的不是軍中貿然去小組的成員這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12705.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12734.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
周邊的部落他只有一個代表比不過他們幾所比不過對嘛所以這後面我們還是持續溝通嘛好不好就跟委員做說明好不好但叫我一時馬上就答應去改我這裡可能有些法令方面的問題我不能夠貿然去法令已經改好了OK啦都可以啦細節部分一定也是與法有據的但是要聽這個在地人最靠近滋航機場的他們受影響最大的好不好我了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12741.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12743.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
接下來請陳冠廷委員上台發言我們請部長請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12772.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12795.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
村委員好部長好部長這個國安局局長在11日在我們的外交國防委員會質詢的時候他有提出這個脅迫性合同他有提到中國會透過他的軍事、經濟、政治、治安等等認知作戰等等各種統合性的方式來去讓台灣出現對於無同想像的空間跟恐懼來達到武力的恫嚇 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12795.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12818.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那這方面部長之前在接受媒體的這個詢問的時候你也提到說就是會非常的擔憂那我想知道說這個國安局的情資他是說中共基本上還是追求非武力統一那依照國安局的情資跟國防部的情資你們的看法是一致的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12819.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12848.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
我跟委員報告,因為這個問題就講說因為層次專業不同我們講說這個文道有先後嘛,數位有專攻嘛我們考量這個層次,不講哪個層次高低問題這個範圍,軍事的考量一定是有這個爭後以後依據爭後,我們去追,去設定可能的行動但可能就又礙於我們有嚴格的一個做法就是說往最壞的地方來打算 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12849.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12871.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
所以會有不同的一個見解但並不代表他是錯的我是對的或者我的錯他對的因為各層級不同範圍領域不同所以我們做我們的表達但人家要考量的還有政治因素其他環境因素在軍事考量當中沒有把這個拉進去所以會有不同的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12872.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12873.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我們因為每天不管是空情、海情 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12888.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12913.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
還有一連串地面部隊訓練的狀況我們大家都有瞭解瞭解依據當前的狀況來研判的話我覺得它是不會停的不管做一個戰備警訊或聯合的警訊它不會停的聯合戰備它可以利用這個時候做一些好像海空之間的演訓或跟地面部隊又怎麼樣一個演練 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12915.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12942.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
這我們都要掌控,掌控狀況我們就在這個軍事方面我們還是要注意對,因為部長的職責嘛就是料底要從嚴,那從嚴去做然後就是因為我們知道說部長都睡不著可是不是只是睡不著部長是直接進入到指揮所是有因應的作為所以這點我們也是非常肯定啊也聽說部長旗都一直都不會落下來就是表示花很多時間在應處這個部分我們是非常肯定的但是我還是要強調,國安局他們是想 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12943.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12948.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我相信這個部分的這樣子的說法跟部長的這樣的看法還是基本上吻合的我這樣理解可以說當然說他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12961.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12983.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
你對敵情的這個偵測當然照樣跟過去比較起來是不同但是整體的情勢判斷你會是怎麼看對我覺得認同因為我們有氣達目標跟可達目標氣達的就講希望他不要有任何戰事發生這大家共同的但可不可以的的確沒有戰事發生這我軍中的立場我們不能暴力啊絕對不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12984.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12991.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
所以部長的這個作為把擔憂的行為化為動作直接去這個指揮所進駐啊等等的這些做法我們都是肯定的但是我還是強調說在於國防跟國安情資的這個風險溝通風險溝通裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13011.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13031.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
對外還是基本上要有一定的邏輯性跟一致性因為台灣是一個民主自由的社會所以我們的媒體會解讀部長的每一句話那有可能會放大那這個時候對於這個風險的溝通那當然就是非常重要那通常這個在我記得在疫情期間CDC他們有一整套 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13032.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13032.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13051.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13079.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
立法委員也好媒體的這些假設的問題上面可是如果我們要針對每一個假設提出回應的話那甚至會利用我們的回應來去影響民眾對整個整體安全的認知的看法那我是覺得就是會令我們比較擔心所以在這邊還是希望在溝通的部分在對於民眾的溝通的部分跟國安局還有其他的這些評估的機關的一致性還是非常重要的那第二部分想要請教這個部長關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13081.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13081.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我給你回報啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13104.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13121.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
空飄氣球這個事件也是灰色事件之一但我們可以發覺它的空飄它有季節性風向等等這有一個已經歸納出來在某個階段會有比較多的空飄氣球因為空飄氣球它的用途有很廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13121.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13136.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
有碳空的還有偵測的等等但我們到目前為止我們所了解大家都碳空所以碳空是什麼測量在某高度外上面的溫度或它這個氣流等等它以便於它將來 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13137.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13150.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
在武器裝備運用方面會有怎麼樣的影響他要找這個參數但我們不幫他來解讀也不報得很樂觀在這個當中可能夾雜一些偵測的作用這我們絕對不會去講說去否定 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13154.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13173.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
但是我們有應應的方法,第一個原則講它已經預約到我們上空了,我們只要有能力的話當然要把它處理掉,但目前它的高度都在我們射程範圍內,也不可能用飛彈去射擊它,但我們有個作為,除了掌控以外我們會告知我們國軍的軍機還有民航局 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13175.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13196.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
在這個航道上飛行的不管是軍機也好民機也好要特別注意我想這個是我們跟民航局已經達成協議而且目前是在做的相關的預警等等其實我之所以問這個實際上的威脅我們希望說如果他並沒有辦法造成實質的威脅的話那我們派潛戰機等等或者是直接把他擊落等等這個就變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13197.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13211.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
不符合資源的配比這是不符合資源的配比所以我們也要知道說實質上面的威脅到底是多少如果沒有這樣子的實質上面的威脅那其他的應處方式可能會更加妥當謝謝部長那部長你有提到其實這幾個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13213.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13240.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我想大家都很針對這個金門的事件來去有各種不同的看法那今天又有很不幸的有漁船翻霧的事件周美武署長他今天是有談到說是在禁縣制水域那陳育珍委員他是說是在這個我們直接用他說的話是在金門海域之外是屬於中方治理的海域所以到底是在我們的管轄控制的範圍嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13242.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13244.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
其實我有看到這次的專報內容有提到說支援海巡海域執法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13271.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13290.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
部長其實在多次的訪問都有提到不以直接介入為原則那我們也是很肯定就是海巡對他們的海警這是不讓事件升級的一個方式可是部長有提到說國軍會隨時保持監控但是如果這個如果說有需要協助的話那有可能會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13291.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13294.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
請問具體的方式是什麼?應該是說我們的瞭解是不是就是會以監控為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13313.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13341 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
以先為主,如果有進一步的,我們會經過研判：如果對方升級,那我們不得不做應處的時候：對,該去查證,該去喊話,該去警告確實都沒問題,他還要一直貿然進的話,那就已經就很危險了,那就是不期望看到的結果我們擔憂也就這個,就擦槍走火的狀況,我們很擔憂對,謝謝部長,因為這是一個很困難的工作啦,因為我想當然對於保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13341.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13365.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
我國的這一個海空域我們國軍有它重要的責任在可是同時因為兩岸的特殊情況我們又不能夠讓事件升級所以我們能夠使用的手段跟方式其實是很被限制的所以這方面還是希望說至少在能做的部分在輔助的部分還是盡量提供海巡署更多的能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13366.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13368.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
最後部長我想要來跟你討論一下這個士兵的待遇軍事待遇的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13388.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13410.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
本辦公室也有提出相關的提案,就是希望能夠增加國軍的福利但是我們也從國防部提供來的資料來看,過去5年軍事官還有士兵的流營率我們看起來是士兵的部分還有士官的部分,那這個都是相對比較低一點的 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13411.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13435.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
如果在軍事觀的這個部分我們希望提高的這種福利跟待遇的話我們還是會以基層的官兵為主所以說對於這些想要留營的對於這些有志於軍旅生活的特別是這個志願的這些我們非常尊重那我們也是希望說能夠增加他的留營率但是說對於基層士兵他的待遇跟福利 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13435.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13454.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我們是希望說國防部有沒有什麼經濟的作為或提升的方案如果有的話或者是你們甚至可以提出相關的方案我們都很願意來去協助我必須再強調是基層的是軍官因為只有他們有足夠的時間留在軍中的話他們才能夠經過歷練然後繼續往上升中校上校甚至是 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13454.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13479.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
有一天可以來去統一指揮那如果我們最基層的軍事官在前半部就已經離開的話那我想人還是一個部隊最重要的部分所以還是希望部長可不可以提供您的看法一下是很感謝委員對這個關切而且也鼓舞一下我們要改變的話委員會支持事實上我要跟委員報告國軍軍方待遇他看來講本縫還有某些是固定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13480.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13497.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
但是有很多工作角色因為你的單位不同或你負責的職長不同他會有很多專業方面加急但我們當然絕對不以此為滿意了但我們要考量要提高他的薪俸待遇的話這是一個整體的問題我們假如有定案了或有建議了 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13498.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13499.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
因為上午有宣告我們邱部長等一下12點要 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13526.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13539.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
參加國安會議所以12點離開那由博鴻輝博副部長帶領接下來請徐欣穎委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13560.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13561.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
國防部副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13572.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13599.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
蘇媛好本席一位會部長會在那上禮拜本席有特別來本委員會提醒為我們國軍弟兄的食安特別的提醒部長不要讓蘇丹紅不管是調味料或是副食品加工副食品成為我們國軍弟兄 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13601.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13602.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
蘇丹紅的副食品加工食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13620.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13648.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
進入了我們的國軍弟兄的部隊中所以這個部分本席主要是要再次的強調因為現在各級政府他們都下令都拒絕所以我們不希望所有被拒絕的食品反而成為保家衛國的我們的國軍弟兄們的餐桌上的食物所以本席要在這邊再次的請 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13649.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13654.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
副部長這個部分您是不是可以我們一定要加強做到可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13656.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13680.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
謝謝委員對我們官兵的健康食品安全提出這樣的議題事實上委員上提出來以後我們國防部事實上依照行政院所公布的所有廠家那我們也去清查了我們所有的復工站所提供的產品大概有87項不合格我們都採取預防性的下架那除此之外我們也成立了食安小組去查所以你是說新的不知道的所以才不小心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13680.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13685.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
第二題本席想請教本席在海巡署的解凍報告中看到海巡署跟國防部有建立情監偵平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13706.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13719.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
平時共同的監控以及掌握海面的動態您可不可以用30秒讓本席瞭解這個情監偵平台他是監控什麼他監控及時的海面資訊嗎還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13721.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13748.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
各種海面動態這個我們和海巡署的配合在共同執行任務的時候都是利用我們雷達的陸基上的雷達的監視系統以及我們海岸的巡防系統來做所有的海面上的狀況的監控那我想這個勤監政這些事情呢我們可以這樣講就是說中共的船艦如果從遠來講我們的雷達可以看得見的那我們也會把訊息跟海巡署分享讓我們來共同掌握海空的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13750.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13770.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
請問這個情監偵平台的海面動態資訊有沒有掌握到之前金門海巡事件大陸船隻和海巡艦艇的動態和事件經過報告委員這個詳細的情況我不願在這邊說明但是我可以向委員報告這個都可以掌握是不是有機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13772.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13791.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
是不是有國防機密?是的,我要這樣講,這牽扯到我們的所有海空狀況的監控的狀況,但我跟委員報告,這些都是我們掌控當中。那如果是機密,那是不是去除機密部分有提供給檢察官參考?因為這個事件整個現在檢察官在辦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13792.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13808.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
報告委員,就我所知道現在這個事件已經針對到司法證據所有的證據只要檢察官提出來,我們都會提供所以都有提供再來本席也要請教我們這個海巡艦艇 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13810.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13834.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我們台灣的海巡艦艇因為數量或頓速我們都遠遠不及大陸的我想國防部很清楚所以國防部對海巡有沒有這種即時馳援的機制應該是有的嗎當然是有是的那所以本席在這裡主要就是要特別的來提醒跟強調我們千萬不能讓我們的海巡艦艇被對岸的 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13834.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13840.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
實際上我們跟海巡署的合作是有非常好的默契而且我們有相關的行動準則那原則上我們現在所有的呼籲的行動是以海巡署它為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13858.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13882.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
那我們所有的海軍的艦艇都在旁邊協助海巡署在執行這樣的業務所以在合作上面來講我們能夠在今天台海的狀況縱使中共的船艦每天進入到我的禁限制水域甚至於到達我們20海里我們都是採取相關的行動準則來抵禦這些中共的灰色地帶衝突升高 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13883.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13891.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
所以做最好的互相支援的準備再來本席想請教我們現在兩岸局勢到底有多緊張包委員這個我必須要跟委員報告事實上我們現在兩岸的局勢在全球來看都是在可控制的範圍裡面那就國軍的立場來看我們就跟我們部長所強調的我們要一定要料敵從寬欲敵從嚴這是我們國軍的立場是的那本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13913.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13926.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
這個主要是要反映我們新竹縣我們的竹北西區就是靠海邊那裡我不知道我們國軍的航道是不是非常多民眾反映空軍日夜訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13928.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13954.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
日夜訓練、夜夜訓練嚴重的影響當地居民的生活作息當然我們站在國家安全的立場我們當然支持我們國防部該做的訓練但是已經讓民眾日夜都沒辦法休息他們致電國防部國防部就反應兩岸局勢非常非常緊張所以我們就是需要這麼頻繁的訓練那這個部分民眾的生活該怎麼辦這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13956.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13982.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
緊張的局勢那民眾他的生活要緊跟著緊張到什麼時候還有生活完全的被打擾這情況怎麼辦報告委員我跟委員報告所以本席想了解的是這裡面有沒有過多的過多的訓練或者是怎麼樣對民眾這裡因為他們畢竟長久居住在那裡這個部分要解決報告委員我首先必須要強調現在的民眾對國防的關心的程度非常感激 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13983.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14000.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
那我們事實上我們可以看到現在海空的動態他們不是關係他們是因為我知道尤其尤其現在中共的灰色地帶衝突他不是只有利用日間夜間也來實施海空的這樣子的一個灰色地帶衝突所以我們的官兵我們當然知道你們需要那現在這個中間有沒有我們會把這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14005.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14006.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
有關於居民的溝通尤其是機場旁邊的噪音 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14034.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14048.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
這些里長跟我們的所有的連隊都保持一個很好的互動這個就是他們跟我反映的那如果有這個問題希望我提供誰反映我們今天會請那個連隊去跟這些居民來做溝通謝謝委員的提供謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14055.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14065.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
接下來請張家俊委員．張家俊．張家俊委員不在．請葉元之．葉元之．葉元之委員不在．請伍麗華委員上臺質詢。謝謝主席。有請副部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14086.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14112.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
請副部長副部長您好我們一般做軍事管制區應該都會有公告嘛是的那我是這樣子齁我是為民請命啦有鄉親族人跟我陳情因為呢他們被劃設在加東戰備跑道玉泉村炸射靶場的管制區 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14114.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14128.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
所以他們因為面臨一些建築的問題才發現原來我們是位在縣建區那我就要去查什麼時候公告那公告查不到所以我就索資 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14130.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14150.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
被影響的這個你應該看到那個表格有九個部落我就所知那國防部給我的資料是說一個民國八十年的這一份公文那另外就是附上兩張圖一個是戰備跑道的那另外一個是炸射靶場的 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14153.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14176.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
我想要請問一下副部長我們禁憲管制的依據法令是哪一個法令我想這個禁憲件委員手上我們所提供的資料就是我們在80年所公布的這樣的法的依據我想這個禁憲件是當時公告以後到現在為止隨著地區的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14177.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14204.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
而很多的會做修訂那其實我是查到有一個叫海岸山地及重要軍事設施管制區與禁艦限艦範圍劃定公告及管制作業規定對嗎那我也看到他修訂過4次那最近的一次是103年的7月1日那他其實是有規定那我們看一下這個規定的第9條第8款 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14205.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14221.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
他說管制區設管單位應將公告之限制因素、授權核定高度、高距比、借莊位置、起算點還有高層等相關資料要提供給誰呢?地方政府主管建築的機關去作為審核申建案的依據對吧?對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14227.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14238.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
那現在我就想要請教一下根據這個管制作業要點齁其實他有一個示意圖那我看我們提供的這個民國80年這個戰備跑道圖齁我看起來畫法是一致的沒有問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14242.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14266.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
但是另外一個那個炸射靶場的呢其實按照我們的這個作業規定他也有示意圖跟你們提供給我的呢長得是有點不太像那我另外找到一個叫軍事重要軍事管制區的公告示意圖也是那個位置的畫的長得也是不太一樣那所以我想要請教的第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14267.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14284.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
就是我其實看到這個是107年的11月22號才增加我剛才講的這一些鄉當然包含我們9個原住民的部落那您可以看到這個部落地圖上它都是靠近山區對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14286.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14290.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
那107年的前後呢我們發現他的憲建高度也不一樣我怎麼查出來的因為我要當柯南嘛那我就發現說有人呢他想要去查詢他是不是位在環境敏感地區因為你要知道小型露營場的 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14303.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14314.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
這個也是我任內我一直在努力在前年5月通過公告那很多人就要開始查我是不是位在19項的環境敏感地區結果呢他確實是位在管制區那回復什麼呢我們八軍團指揮部回復說這個點就是那個那個內圈那個紅點點有沒有看到那個內圈淡白的第一圈他說他的現建高度是40公尺 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14329.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14332.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
好,我又查到105年也有人去問過這個問題我們的回覆是告訴他,縣建高度是30公尺好,那我們看一下民國80年你們提供的那個圖他中間那個淡黃是進建區外圍有縣建10米、縣建30米、縣建40米越外圍應該是數值越高嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14351.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14378.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
但是你們的112年的回覆跟105年的回覆是相反的但是我認為112年的回覆是正確的為什麼?因為照理說它應該是按照你們原來的10米但是它有增加海拔高度所以才變40米可是現在我是想要請教一下副部長你看一下我們這個部落我現在舉的是海拔最低的那個南河村 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14379.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14401.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
那個南俄村你看一下它的海拔那個高出來的部分是它的整個海拔它最低的地方是海拔138米但是按照你們的規定它是限建70米那我真是不知道它到底要怎麼蓋房子就全村都在你們的規定以下我想先請教一下就是副部長您有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14401.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14414.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
報告委員我跟委員我們為什麼這樣一直修訂齊來有志第一個我們不能影響地方的發展這是第一個第二個因素我必須要跟委員強調進縣建的區域牽扯到補償金有時候我們很為難我們認為說這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14420.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14437.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
我當然理解那有些部落就說我們希望列入那我們就要去監測這噪音是依法去看他有沒有達到這個標準那再來我上次也講非常清楚拿豐田機場為例他的如果說是下滑到紀念艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14438.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14458.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
我們以前畫的位置在半山腰那我請問半山腰誰會去蓋房子你畫在那邊沒有用所以你有解方嗎據聞說我要畫的原因是你懂我意思那噪音是達到標準他說我要補償金但基於地方上考量的時候民意大於這些人想要蓋房子那我們就去想 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14460.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14481.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
謝謝副部長我跟您說其實他們來找我澄清我最忙的時候選舉的時候去年12月我也開了一個協調會好現在呢我的會議決議內容是一兩週內回復現建範圍徒資重新套會及修正公告預定期程沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14481.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14500.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
我是因為今天要質詢,昨天才給我那個公告跟那兩張副圖。第二個,兩個月內提出空軍加東靶場周邊限建限高補償草案當然這個是你們最忌諱的,也沒有。第三個,空軍司令部派員會同屏東縣政府致受影響用地範圍辦理限康並複製本辦,也沒有。 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14504.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14519.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
好那所以我就是想要請教一下按照我們這個管制作業規定第10條的第二款已有建築物或高地組隔的經社管單位會刊同意後得核准建築有這個規定嗎那副部長你能不能夠要求各社管單位依規定辦理會刊維護民眾的居住權益當然委員沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14527.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14548.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
這個是我們的責任謝謝 謝謝部長那我希望未來我們還是要針對管制範圍高度要須依規定完成公告並附完整圖說可以嗎這一定要的那第二個就是說已經有建築物或高地相隔的建築申請一定要去會刊好不好要不然縣政府也很困擾啊那針對這些受管制的影響民眾的權益我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14551.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14575.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
雖然你很忌諱啦還是要有一個補償草案當然是當然是那最好就是都不需要動盜補償啦是的好不好謝謝委員謝謝您那我還有一個第二個問題一定要問一下因為你們在旭海有一個屏東S022工程要營區的興建嘛那我跟您說我們有一個原基法那原基法裡面有一個部落諮商同意辦法好現在重點來了我簡單的講現在我們的這個你們的部會這個是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14581.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14596.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
國防部嗎還是什麼海軍司令部你們的海軍司令部很好有去問原民會那原民會就發了一個函說請相公所認定那相公所呢就認定之後呢也認定關西部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14596.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14601.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
然後呢結果你們後來你應該知道結果回來你們竟然說你們不需要遵照這個我唸一下還是您唸來你們的回函說本案應非屬興建或擴建之土地開發行為從而無原住民原基法第21條適用亦無從配合櫃所進行諮商同意程序認定關係部落他們又再一次跟你們申復你們又說再次申復立場就是本案應屬非屬登登登登登 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14626.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14626.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
海軍司令部在做法上來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14647.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14662.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
這個現在是兩個不同的法我認為這是要經過協調但是我們一定要遵守這個原住民的基本法我認為我們海軍司令在這方面跟委員在做溝通好那我就是拜託您因為我覺得部落智商同意辦法它是法律工具喔是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14663.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14683.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
他的精神跟目標跟你們所講的敦青木林其實是一致的所以藐視這套工具其實地方不要講鄉公所不能接受民眾也不能接受全體原住民族人也會覺得受辱這個我們會來檢討那這個部分一定要處理好不好是的好的謝謝副部長謝謝主席兩週回覆喔好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14691.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14713.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
接下來請吳思堯委員．吳思堯、吳思堯委員不在．請邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在．請鄭振前、鄭振前、鄭振前委員不在．請羅明財、羅明財、羅明財委員不在．請蔡易瑜、蔡易瑜、蔡易瑜委員不在．請鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員不在．請翁曉林、翁曉林、翁曉林委員不在．請顏寬恒、顏寬恒、顏寬恒委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14717.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14742.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
今天已登記質詢的委員．除不在場外均已發言完畢．報告及詢答結束本日會議有林益君委員．洪森漢委員．葉元之委員提出書面質詢．請列入記錄並刊登公報．請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆．本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分．或要求補充資料者．亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供． |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14745.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14747 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
本日會議到此結束 散會謝謝 |